Donkey of the day

[Knock-on]

Where do we start?

(I think I know who ioan will slag off ;) )

[gm99]

Badoer hands down.

2nd to the McLaren pit crew.

[UltimateDanGTR]

badoer. slow.
Nakajima. slow and puncture (not his fault granted)

but my donkey of the race is the tyre change crew at mclaren. unorganised doesnt describe it....

[Knock-on]

I have to give it to the McLaren boys for costing Lewis a chance of the win.

Still, that's racing and it's a team game. Sure they will be better at Spa.

[Hawkmoon]

McLaren pit crew win this one easily.

I don't see how Badoer can get it since he performed exactly as expected. In fact he didn't hit the walls so I figure that makes him a candidate for Driver of the Day!

[Robinho]

Badoer was a bit of a spinning top, rubbish pit stop and an infringement, but his times did improve and he wasn't last, neither did he hit anyone or anything.

everyone else did ok, McLaren pit crew with the late tyres was a massive cock-up, but i think Rubens had him anyway

[truefan72]

Mclaren pit crew takes the prize

half a donkey to Badoer as he barely qualified as an F1 racer today.

Webber, maybe for falling out of the points, although quicker than button

[DexDexter]

Badoer, and unfortunately Heikki.

[ioan]

Where do we start?

(I think I know who ioan will slag off ;) )

I'm very undecided between Badoer and the Mclaren team. I guess both deserve a mention! :D

[Ranger]

The donkey is not Badoer. It is whoever put him in that car.


Webber, maybe for falling out of the points, although quicker than button

Button had a much faster than Webber all race but it took 2/3 of the race to get by him.

As soon as Button got clear air he set the fastest lap of the race.


Nakajima. slow and puncture (not his fault granted)
That was the result of his car failing in qualifying. He was going on rather soundly before the puncture.

[ioan]

The donkey is not Badoer. It is whoever put him in that car.

Than it's Montezemolo!

[F1boat]

The Renault engine group.

[Garry Walker]

Kovalainen. Pathetic performance again, what is this guy doing in a top team?'

McLaren lost 2-3 seconds with the pitstop problem, but Barrichello lead him by 4 seconds when he exited the pits. RB would have won anyway.

[ozrevhead]

Mclaren pit crew takes the prize

half a donkey to Badoer as he barely qualified as an F1 racer today.

Webber, maybe for falling out of the points, although quicker than button
Mark was held up in his last pit :mad:

My donkey...

1. Merc Pitcrew
2. Red Bull Pitcrew
3. Ferrrari for having Badoer on a hiding to nothing

[veeten]

Than it's Montezemolo!

when both have the first name Luca, it just speaks volumes, doesn't it ;) :laugh:

[truefan72]

The donkey is not Badoer. It is whoever put him in that car.



Button had a much faster than Webber all race but it took 2/3 of the race to get by him.

As soon as Button got clear air he set the fastest lap of the race.
thats why I said maybe, he really needed to gets some points



That was the result of his car failing in qualifying. He was going on rather soundly before the puncture.
100% correct. It seems like a hobby for some to pick on Nakajima, even when he does nothing wrong. Even when he makes up 4 spots at the start and was running well.

[truefan72]

Mark was held up in his last pit :mad:

My donkey...

1. Merc Pitcrew
2. Red Bull Pitcrew
3. Ferrrari for having Badoer on a hiding to nothing

I suspected something like that. I couldn't understand how he could have fallen back that much. So shame on the RBR crew.

[truefan72]

Kovalainen. Pathetic performance again, what is this guy doing in a top team?'

Kovy is a fast driver but lacks consistent pace throughout the race. He needed to challenge rubens and didn't then compounded it with falling into 4th. Perhaps the yellow flags interfered with him passing backmarkers or something. But after 2 years I'm ready to welcome Rosberg, Kubica or sutil. I'm pretty fed up with kovy. I still think he is deserving of an F1 seat, but not at macs anymore


McLaren lost 2-3 seconds with the pitstop problem, but Barrichello lead him by 4 seconds when he exited the pits. RB would have won anyway.

Lewis lost 6 seconds on the pitstop. so he would have come out about 2 seconds ahead of Rubens

the LH pitstop was 13 seconds when it only needed to be about 6.8-7

[ozrevhead]

I suspected something like that. I couldn't understand how he could have fallen back that much. So shame on the RBR crew.
when we were watching the pitstop my brother said 'i think mark got held up' and sure enough JB speed past...I was absolutly spewing!

also twice when Mark needed clear air, both Merc came out of their pits right ahead of him

[Ranger]

Than it's Montezemolo!

Yup, and it is unfair on Badoer to keep him in the car. He is simply not good enough.

The only reason they should keep him in is to wait for Schumacher to possibly return for the last 3 races (so that he will be the 4th and final driver they can use this year). However, by that point Ferrari will have squandered so many points that there would be no logical reason for this strategy.

Having said that, there was no logic in LdM's driver choice anyway.

[keysersoze]

JMO, but I think the Donkey should always go to a driver rather than a crew member.

With that in mind, it's between Luca, Jenson, and Heikke, but neither were awful given the context of their races--just worse than everyone else. Jensen's race was toast after his bad start; Heikke just faded, and Badoer had a few things go wrong, most of it self-inflicted. However, I did see him pass a couple of drivers going into T1 at the start.

[Ranger]

thats why I said maybe, he really needed to gets some points

That's true but it barely classifies him as a donkey of the race though.

Red Bull in general, were very mediocre today. They've got a week to turn that around.

[truefan72]

The Renault engine group.

i'm sure it has more to do with the Vettels engineers and perhaps his driving style than the usually reliable renault engines. Webber, Alonso, Grosjean and NJr in the past never seem to have engine troubles.

[truefan72]

That's true but it barely classifies him as a donkey of the race though.

Red Bull in general, were very mediocre today. They've got a week to turn that around.

what part of maybe do you not figure. I already dismissed him as a donkey of the race and laid blame with the pit crew. And yes, he really did need to score some points today to keep up with Button.

[ioan]

Kovalainen. Pathetic performance again, what is this guy doing in a top team?'

Huh?
He's entitle to a F1 seat 1000 times more than a certain BADoer.

[5001]

Badoer was poor all weekend but that is down to the fact that there is no in season testing so can someone expect to get a decent finishing postition in a race after he had barely no experience of a F1 car for 10 years

[Garry Walker]

Huh?
He's entitle to a F1 seat 1000 times more than a certain BADoer.

Badoer will be out of F1 as soon as Massa can return, he will never get a seat again.
Kovalainen on the other hand is wasting a top seat for the 2nd year in row. He should be driving for manure racing next year at best.

[ozrevhead]

JMO, but I think the Donkey should always go to a driver rather than a crew member.

With that in mind, it's between Luca, Jenson, and Heikke, but neither were awful given the context of their races--just worse than everyone else. Jensen's race was toast after his bad start; Heikke just faded, and Badoer had a few things go wrong, most of it self-inflicted. However, I did see him pass a couple of drivers going into T1 at the start.
if the crew member or members clearly cost their driver the race or valuable championship points they should

[wedge]

Badoer

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hands Grosjean a postion on a plate (why did you pull over, you fool!?) and then is penalised for straying over the white line

ROFLMAO


Huh?
He's entitle to a F1 seat 1000 times more than a certain BADoer.

Kovy had the better strategy.

Had the postions been reversed LH easily would've pit passed HK after the first stops.

McLaren are wasting the second seat to a second rate driver.

[truefan72]

Badoer was poor all weekend but that is down to the fact that there is no in season testing so can someone expect to get a decent finishing postition in a race after he had barely no experience of a F1 car for 10 years

1. that is Ferrari's decsion to put him there and his for accpeting it. so no excuse

2.you could have given him in season testing and I still think he woukld be 2 seconds off the pace.

[ioan]

Badoer will be out of F1 as soon as Massa can return, he will never get a seat again.

He should be out of that position right now, for all I know even Alex Young would be faster in a Ferrari.

[Garry Walker]

He should be out of that position right now, for all I know even Alex Young would be faster in a Ferrari.

I thought after Yuji Ide left F1 that we wont ever have comedy back in F1, but I was proven wrong.
How sad that it was to do with a Ferrari driver :(

[truefan72]

Badoer

MWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!

Hands Grosjean a postion on a plate (why did you pull over, you fool!?) and then is penalised for straying over the white line

ROFLMAO



Kovy had the better strategy.

Had the postions been reversed LH easily would've pit passed HK after the first stops.

McLaren are wasting the second seat to a second rate driver.

He is a solid F1 driver, but not really worthy of a top seat. even last year he could have done much more. This race is a perfect example of my frustration with him. he's good in qualy sometimes and then fades in races.

maybe, just maybe, kimi might come back to Maclaren. That would be my ideal pairing. 2 quick cars and a teammate that Hamilton knows, would take points away from his competitors if he has an off weekend. He doesn't need to be there to help Hamilton, just to get the best out of the car and win when LH doesn't.

[DexDexter]

He is a solid F1 driver, but not really worthy of a top seat. even last year he could have done much more. This race is a perfect example of my frustration with him. he's good in qualy sometimes and then fades in races.

maybe, just maybe, kimi might come back to Maclaren. That would be my ideal pairing. 2 quick cars and a teammate that Hamilton knows, would take points away from his competitors if he has an off weekend. He doesn't need to be there to help Hamilton, just to get the best out of the car and win when LH doesn't.

How do think Lewis would react if he was beaten? That's the trouble with having two equal drivers, it creates tention and may lead to Alonso/Hamilton type situation. Heikki puzzles me also, I know the guy has a lot of talent but for some reason he is just too much up and down. He is similar to Trulli, quick in quali but loses it in the race.

[52Paddy]

1. that is Ferrari's decsion to put him there and his for accpeting it. so no excuse

2.you could have given him in season testing and I still think he woukld be 2 seconds off the pace.

1. Yes, it's Ferraris decision to put him in. But it is his duty as third driver to accept their orders. He is working for the team, much like an employee. You do what the boss tells you, whether you like it or not. In all honesty, when I saw him in interviews even before he drove the car, he never seemed enthusiastic about the whole affair. He knew he just had to do a job and that was to drive the car. To me, he seemed fairly focused just on that, still knowing the difficulties it would entail.

2. I'm not going to mention any numbers, but if in-season testing was still permitted I fail to understand how this would not obviously improve Badoer's confidence and ability to drive the car straight out of the blocks. I do respect that a counter-argument could be that other drivers would also have the ability to test and up their pace, but I don't think the differences would be as great. They get to race every weekend. That's an important difference.

Let's look at the scenario he faced at Valencia.

(i) a car he never drove before on (ii) a track he never drove before while dealing with (iii) a task that he dutifully accepted to undertake (replacing Massa), genuinely not expecting to give anybody a run for their money.

Out of context: Badoer is the donkey. I think that's the way some of you are looking at it.

In conext: The McLaren screw up was bad but RB was on the cards for a win anyway. From Martin Whitmarsh's interview on BBC post-race, Hamilton was delayed 2-3 seconds in the pits, but came out 6 seconds behind RB (if I remember that correctly.) You can't argue with maths, even if he would have been in a position to overtake RB earlier. For me, it was Trulli. Absolutely no impact on the race whatsoever. Glock was in the same boat though he did up his pace late on.

[christophulus]

Kovalainen did OK - "donkey" is a bit harsh given that he was in a car that was allegedly slower than Hamilton's once again (Whitmarsh mentioned that LH had the "shorter" wheelbase car which was 0.2s faster per lap), and nearly had pole.

Plus he did a good job for the team in slowing Barrichello down (intentionally or otherwise - we'll never know) which McLaren wasted with a dodgy pit stop.

For me, no major donkeys.

[keysersoze]

if the crew member or members clearly cost their driver the race or valuable championship points they should

. . . and that's your opinion, which you are quite welcome to.

[ioan]

For me, no major donkeys.

You obviously forgot the comedian of the day. ;)

[jens]

Ferrari for choosing Badoer.
Toyota for continually not knowing, how should TF109 warm up the tyres properly. For several races in a row they have been relatively fast by the end of the race, but this is too late after being nowhere in qualifying...
Red Bull for decreasing their title chances significantly.
McLaren isn't a donkey for me - they made a small mistake compared to previus ones and this pitstop cock-up even didn't cost a win (RB was less than 4 secs behind LH before the last round of pitstops and had much more fuel on-board).


Among drivers Button didn't impress me at all. Being seventh (which was also inherited by the troubles of Red Bulls), while your team-mate won, is just too far behind (RB has never been that much behind JB in any race thus far).

[edv]

...should be driving for manure racing next year at best.
he he
Thank you. That made my day!

[ozrevhead]

. . . and that's your opinion, which you are quite welcome to.
thanks as you are with yours so dont think I was attacking you or anything :)

Could be the championship defining race and RB screw it up - to me that has donkey written all over it

[AJP]

Hmmmm....well
Red Bull pit crew for f@#%ing up Mark Webbers pit stop.
Renault for another e engine in Vettels car(He has only 2 engines left for the rest of the season)
Ferrari for putting Badoer in the car.

[truefan72]

How do think Lewis would react if he was beaten? That's the trouble with having two equal drivers, it creates tention and may lead to Alonso/Hamilton type situation. Heikki puzzles me also, I know the guy has a lot of talent but for some reason he is just too much up and down. He is similar to Trulli, quick in quali but loses it in the race.

lewis reacted very well when he was beaten by Alonso, didn't he?
I don't recall him making demands of the team to back him, or offering pay incentives to produce better cars than his teammate, or unwilling to share technical data, or selling out the team to the FIA after it seemed like the situation was over, or purposely holding up his teammate on the pitstop to deny him another lap, or refusing to communicate with the team principle, I could go on and on, but you get the point.
alonso has a history of temper tantrums and poor attitude when his teammate beats him, Just ask Fisichella. He also didn't have a team principle willing to sacrifice the other seat for him or massage his ego. I honestly think that Alosn learned from his experience at Mclaren. at least I hope so.

[F1boat]

lewis reacted very well when he was beaten by Alonso, didn't he?


No. Check Monte Carlo.

[DexDexter]

lewis reacted very well when he was beaten by Alonso, didn't he?
I don't recall him making demands of the team to back him, or offering pay incentives to produce better cars than his teammate, or unwilling to share technical data, or selling out the team to the FIA after it seemed like the situation was over, or purposely holding up his teammate on the pitstop to deny him another lap, or refusing to communicate with the team principle, I could go on and on, but you get the point.
alonso has a history of temper tantrums and poor attitude when his teammate beats him, Just ask Fisichella. He also didn't have a team principle willing to sacrifice the other seat for him or massage his ego. I honestly think that Alosn learned from his experience at Mclaren. at least I hope so.

I agree with you regarding what you write about Alonso, but Hamilton, I hear, would like to have Kovy as teammate next year also, and why? Because he's nice and not quick enough in the races.

[Storm]

Badoer + Ferrari

The guy hasn't raced in ages and has never driven at Valencia before so I did not see a logical reason to put him in the seat instead of any other out of work ex-F1 driver (who has raced in the past few months , somewhere!) or even a GP2 driver.

Didn't want Luca to fail by being so excruciatingly slow but he was poor and so was Ferrari management for throwing away a few points.

[ShiftingGears]

Badoer. Hilarious!
And Red Bull.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Lewis lost 6 seconds on the pitstop. so he would have come out about 2 seconds ahead of Rubens

the LH pitstop was 13 seconds when it only needed to be about 6.8-7

The fuel nozzle didn't come out till after 8 seconds at least.

[CNR]

i'm sure it has more to do with the Vettels engineers and perhaps his driving style than the usually reliable renault engines. Webber, Alonso, Grosjean and NJr in the past never seem to have engine troubles.
http://www.teletext.co.uk/motorsport/motor/stories/aa9166efab0bac225f9b8fcb589a31b2/F1+Renault+make+engine+apology.aspx


F1: Renault make engine apology
Renault have apologised to Red Bull and Sebastian Vettel for two engine failures at the European Grand Prix.

Vettel's V8 blew in practice and in the race in Valencia, seriously denting his aspirations of a title challenge.

Chief engineer Fabrice Lom said: "It's a black weekend. I can only apologise for this reliability issue and assure them we'll work as hard as possible to ensure it doesn't happen again."

[stevie_gerrard]

Mclaren pit crew, despite the fact rubens was quick enough to win anyway. Lewis could have made it close and even snatched victory.

[Bagwan]

According to James Allen , the McLaren pit crew might not be donkeys at all .

"So it would have been tight, but when the team told Hamilton at the last minute to stay out and he realised that he was committed to the pit lane and decided not to change course, the team wasn’t ready with the tyres."

It sounds to me like Hamilton , having "decided not to change course" , was at least as responsible as the team .

His fans saw Hamilton as being a good team player , stating , like Michael used to say , that the he and the team won and lost together .
That seems a bit rich now , as it seems that James is saying that he had time to react , and stay out .

If he had come clean with this info during the post race press conference , it might have come off more genuine .
We know , though , that this particular donkey , doesn't do well with the press sometimes , and has a character that lets others take a fall for his foibles .

Donkey , donkey , donkey !

[Knock-on]

According to James Allen , the McLaren pit crew might not be donkeys at all .

"So it would have been tight, but when the team told Hamilton at the last minute to stay out and he realised that he was committed to the pit lane and decided not to change course, the team wasn’t ready with the tyres."

It sounds to me like Hamilton , having "decided not to change course" , was at least as responsible as the team .

His fans saw Hamilton as being a good team player , stating , like Michael used to say , that the he and the team won and lost together .
That seems a bit rich now , as it seems that James is saying that he had time to react , and stay out .

If he had come clean with this info during the post race press conference , it might have come off more genuine .
We know , though , that this particular donkey , doesn't do well with the press sometimes , and has a character that lets others take a fall for his foibles .

Donkey , donkey , donkey !

What part of "Committed" is it difficult to understand.

I suppose he could have stopped, spun around and rejoined the track. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

According to James Allen , the McLaren pit crew might not be donkeys at all .

"So it would have been tight, but when the team told Hamilton at the last minute to stay out and he realised that he was committed to the pit lane and decided not to change course, the team wasn’t ready with the tyres."


Still it took him some time to enter the pit lane and go all the way down to the penultimate box and all of it was live on TV so the crew has no excuses.
Plus half of the crew was already in place, only the guys with the warm tires were late!

Looks to me like a management mistake. Lewis didn't decide on his own when to pit.

[Bagwan]

What part of "Committed" is it difficult to understand.

I suppose he could have stopped, spun around and rejoined the track. :rolleyes:

And , what part of "decided not to change course" sounds like it wasn't an option ?

Lewis is quick , but not in thinking terms .
Under pressure , he made a decision that resulted in his team not being ready for the pit stop .
Sure , the team told him to stay out late , but James clearly states that it was a decision Lewis made .

[Bagwan]

Still it took him some time to enter the pit lane and go all the way down to the penultimate box and all of it was live on TV so the crew has no excuses.
Plus half of the crew was already in place, only the guys with the warm tires were late!

Looks to me like a management mistake. Lewis didn't decide on his own when to pit.

His team told him not to pit , and were likely headed back in to the garage .
They would all have been informed , as Lewis was , that he wasn't to pit , at the last moment .
The tire guys would be rushing back in to plug in the warmers , as they would be the only ones with items needing such care .
Rushing back into the garage , plugging in , realizing that the driver was pulling up would cause havoc , with yanking out the plugs and rushing back to the pit box .

This would be because everyone on the team expected Lewis to stay out .
James also thinks he had the time , if he made the decision to do so .

[ioan]

His team told him not to pit , and were likely headed back in to the garage .
They would all have been informed , as Lewis was , that he wasn't to pit , at the last moment .
The tire guys would be rushing back in to plug in the warmers , as they would be the only ones with items needing such care .
Rushing back into the garage , plugging in , realizing that the driver was pulling up would cause havoc , with yanking out the plugs and rushing back to the pit box .

This would be because everyone on the team expected Lewis to stay out .
James also thinks he had the time , if he made the decision to do so .

I do not contest that there was time for Lewis to make a decision, just that the team were not prepared for both possibilities.
It happened to Ferrari to in the past that there were missing wheels and such, so no big deal.

[Bagwan]

I do not contest that there was time for Lewis to make a decision, just that the team were not prepared for both possibilities.
It happened to Ferrari to in the past that there were missing wheels and such, so no big deal.

Well , had Lewis done what the team had asked , he would have had wheels ready .
Had they not asked him to stay out , the wheels were likely there already , because they would have expected him .

Point being , they were ready , but not for the possibilty of Lewis deciding to not obey the directive .

[Alfica]

Badoer, deffinately.. he even crashed into Sutil's car when parking his car in Parc Fermé.

[leopard]

I am not too much into drivers comparison, aside from the fact that the race compels drivers being involved in incident, Buemi performance is down under his new and younger teammate Alguersuari..

[Viv]

Well , had Lewis done what the team had asked , he would have had wheels ready .
Had they not asked him to stay out , the wheels were likely there already , because they would have expected him .

Point being , they were ready , but not for the possibilty of Lewis deciding to not obey the directive .

I don't think it was Lewis deciding not to obey the orders. This is from the post race press conference
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2009/8/9797.html


Yeah, I was told to come in that lap. Obviously I had been saving as much fuel as I could to go a little bit longer and I think it was probably a little bit unsure whether I had enough or I didn’t have enough and the worst thing to do is to risk it and run out of fuel on that last lap. So they called me in and I was just on my way in and I’d just got inside the white line and I was already committed and they then told me to do an extra lap. I would probably have lost too much time if I had tried to continue, so it happened.

So it does look like it's more of a McLaren screw up. Had they told him a little earlier he might have stayed on track.

[CNR]

i hate to do this

MARK WEBBER

"I struggled all weekend and I think I got the result I deserved, which was no points

[52Paddy]

i hate to do this

MARK WEBBER

Very meek of him.

[ioan]

I actually respect Webber for admitting that.

When I think that BADoer said he was happy with how he did, I can only say that Webber's realistic view of his own performance is something to respect in today's ego inflated F1.

:up: to him!

[52Paddy]

Mind you, that's one aspect of Webber I've always admired. He's wise beyond his years and seems to have his feet on the ground more so than any other driver out there.

[wedge]

i hate to do this

MARK WEBBER

A bit too harsh on himself

Brawn outsmarted RBR at the second round of stops and Webber lost more time with shoddy refuelling.

[woody2goody]

My top donkeys for the Valencia race:

1. Timo Glock - ran into Grosjean early in the race and then didn't set the world on fire until he set the FASTEST LAP!?!?!!?

2. Jenson Button - hate to say this but I thought he showed a distinct lack of fight after he let Mark through. He should have been really pressuring him instead of trundling on to 7th. Poor showing.

3. Jarno Trulli - not much better than Glock sadly

4. Luca Badoer - for crossing the white line at the pit exit, not anything else, I thought he did well overall considering.

5. Romain Grosjean for a messy race (despite showing strong pace). He looks like a good one for the future.

6. Whoever ran into Luca on the opening lap.

[woody2goody]

I actually respect Webber for admitting that.

When I think that BADoer said he was happy with how he did, I can only say that Webber's realistic view of his own performance is something to respect in today's ego inflated F1.

:up: to him!

I'm sure you'd be happy too if you'd finished your first Grand Prix for 10 years. And in a higher position than you started.

Heck I'll be happy if I ever drive in ONE Grand Prix let alone finish it.

[Saint Devote]

Yup, and it is unfair on Badoer to keep him in the car. He is simply not good enough.

The only reason they should keep him in is to wait for Schumacher to possibly return for the last 3 races (so that he will be the 4th and final driver they can use this year). However, by that point Ferrari will have squandered so many points that there would be no logical reason for this strategy.

Having said that, there was no logic in LdM's driver choice anyway.

Niki Lauda stated that Badoer AND Gene are "rubbish" and he would do better than them!

People on this message board then rubbished Lauda and insulted him.

I do not see any apologies from these "erudite" individuals.

For Badoer sake he had better begin to perform otherwise he will be remembered as one of the WORST drivers in f1 perhaps even beating out someone like the lovely Giovanna Amati or Lavaggi!!!

[woody2goody]

Niki Lauda stated that Badoer AND Gene are "rubbish" and he would do better than them!

People on this message board then rubbished Lauda and insulted him.

I do not see any apologies from these "erudite" individuals.

For Badoer sake he had better begin to perform otherwise he will be remembered as one of the WORST drivers in f1 perhaps even beating out someone like the lovely Giovanna Amati or Lavaggi!!!

You're right about Amati and Lavaggi.

There are a lot of people who are really looking at this the wrong way. Luca drove 50 races before this one, punching above his weight in uncompetitive machinery, and suddenly this ONE race, with all the surrounding circumstances, is the one that people are saying will be his legacy.

Unbelievable. What would have happened if Schumi would have come back and the same had happened to him? Would anybody be saying this? Would they hell.

I'm not blind to how slow Luca was, and I'm not going to try to mask that, but I'm also not ignorant enough to disregard the man's entire racing career based on one bad weekend.

Nobody remembers Mansell as the guy who didn't fit into a McLaren in 1995. That's not his legacy, and Valencia 2009 will not be Luca's. It may be a footnote, but that's all it will ever be.

Can't we just all pull for the guy? Can't we just wish him well and hope that he scores some points instead of kicking him while he's down?

[pino]

You're right about Amati and Lavaggi.

There are a lot of people who are really looking at this the wrong way. Luca drove 50 races before this one, punching above his weight in uncompetitive machinery, and suddenly this ONE race, with all the surrounding circumstances, is the one that people are saying will be his legacy.

Unbelievable. What would have happened if Schumi would have come back and the same had happened to him? Would anybody be saying this? Would they hell.

I'm not blind to how slow Luca was, and I'm not going to try to mask that, but I'm also not ignorant enough to disregard the man's entire racing career based on one bad weekend.

Nobody remembers Mansell as the guy who didn't fit into a McLaren in 1995. That's not his legacy, and Valencia 2009 will not be Luca's. It may be a footnote, but that's all it will ever be.

Can't we just all pull for the guy? Can't we just wish him well and hope that he scores some points instead of kicking him while he's down?

That's probably the most intelligent post I've read in here for months :up:

[F1boat]

Niki Lauda stated that Badoer AND Gene are "rubbish" and he would do better than them!



That's it, guys, Luca will win the next race.

[ioan]

I'm sure you'd be happy too if you'd finished your first Grand Prix for 10 years. And in a higher position than you started.

Heck I'll be happy if I ever drive in ONE Grand Prix let alone finish it.

He finished where he started,dead last, as Nakajima had retired after the punctured tire affair affected his car but was classified because he had completed more than 75% of the race.

And no I wouldn't be just happy to trundle around the track if given the chance to race a Ferrari F1 car, I'm not the loser type just happy to be given a bone to chew.

[ioan]

You're right about Amati and Lavaggi.

There are a lot of people who are really looking at this the wrong way. Luca drove 50 races before this one, punching above his weight in uncompetitive machinery, and suddenly this ONE race, with all the surrounding circumstances, is the one that people are saying will be his legacy.

Unbelievable. What would have happened if Schumi would have come back and the same had happened to him? Would anybody be saying this? Would they hell.

I'm not blind to how slow Luca was, and I'm not going to try to mask that, but I'm also not ignorant enough to disregard the man's entire racing career based on one bad weekend.

Nobody remembers Mansell as the guy who didn't fit into a McLaren in 1995. That's not his legacy, and Valencia 2009 will not be Luca's. It may be a footnote, but that's all it will ever be.

Can't we just all pull for the guy? Can't we just wish him well and hope that he scores some points instead of kicking him while he's down?

You're a BADoer apologist, nothing more. All you do it trying to excuse his very poor performance while ignoring the facts. :down:

[Dzeidzei]

Unbelievable. What would have happened if Schumi would have come back and the same had happened to him? Would anybody be saying this? Would they hell.

Nobody remembers Mansell as the guy who didn't fit into a McLaren in 1995.

Youre absolutely right. The fiasko wasnt Lucas fault, the blame goes to LdM. Badoer was simply in the wrong place in Valencia and he will be in the wrong place in Spa.

I strongly believe even MS would have had a difficult time in Valencia. Its unlikely he would have been in the points.

And Mansells "overweight" was just his way out of an embarrasing situation. Being 2 secs off Mikas pace he realised that his time had gone. Theres nothing wrong with that. Nothing disgraceful. Its juts about adapting to the hard facts.

Which is why we will never see MS in F1 again.

[ioan]

Youre absolutely right. The fiasko wasnt Lucas fault, the blame goes to LdM. Badoer was simply in the wrong place in Valencia and he will be in the wrong place in Spa.

I strongly believe even MS would have had a difficult time in Valencia. Its unlikely he would have been in the points.

And Mansells "overweight" was just his way out of an embarrasing situation. Being 2 secs off Mikas pace he realised that his time had gone. Theres nothing wrong with that. Nothing disgraceful. Its juts about adapting to the hard facts.

Which is why we will never see MS in F1 again.

That's the difference between the greats and the clowns, the former can see it when it's better not to make an idiot of themselves the later is not bright enough to realize that he looks like a clown.

[F1boat]

You're a BADoer apologist, nothing more. All you do it trying to excuse his very poor performance while ignoring the facts. :down:

Funny thing, ioan. If sometimes says something good about Badoer, he is 'just Badoer apologist". When, I can say that you are just Badoer's hater. It is you who ignore the facts, the circumstances, you just hate, hate, hate.

[jimakos]

I think you have to stop arguing about Badoer guys!!
You have two different opinions about hin and the conversation doesn't have results!
Both of you have a lot things to say about F1 don't stuck in Badoer :)

[ioan]

Funny thing, ioan. If sometimes says something good about Badoer, he is 'just Badoer apologist". When, I can say that you are just Badoer's hater. It is you who ignore the facts, the circumstances, you just hate, hate, hate.

Yeah I hate crap drivers wasting a good seat in F1, I hate them cruising around, missing almost every apex and breaking point, I hate them letting cars by in the pit lane when they should be fighting them and above all I hate them when they say they are happy being crap! :D

I'm definitely a hater of ignorant, stupid and lazy people and I never made a secret of it! :D

Anything else you want to know?

[ioan]

I think you have to stop arguing about Badoer guys!!
You have two different opinions about hin and the conversation doesn't have results!
Both of you have a lot things to say about F1 don't stuck in Badoer :)

Don't worry, there's always a few around here who will try to excuse even the crappiest drivers, or whatever reason.
What's even worse is that on top of that they will call you a hater because you're not in love with those lazy bums that are wasting a perfectly good seat. I'm wondering why they react like if Badoer was at least their brother?! :\

[F1boat]

I'm definitely a hater

That was more than enough.

[ioan]

That was more than enough.

Good. Now get of my back.

[F1boat]

Do not tell me what to do, dear Sir.

[jimakos]

My hope to stop arguing fell in the bottom!
Let's talk about something else guys...

[F1boat]

jmakos, maybe the problem is with me, but I like to defend the underdog, especially if he is a hard-working, decent and kind man, who has a shot on his boyhood dream. I like such stories, similar stories, about drivers who were done and later have their shot. That's why I was cheering for Barrichello, although I don't like his attitude towards Michael and Ferrari, that's why I support Button for the WDC and am happy for Webber, even if I am not a huge fan of Red Bull. That's how I think, it is natural for me. I try not to insult anyone, but sometimes I feel obliged to defend and when on the other side there is a similar urge to bash, sometimes trouble appears. It's up to pino to decide whether this is harmful for the topic (which is IMO done) but from my experience as a moderator haters are infinitely more destructive to a discussion board than apologists.
But maybe it's just me.

[jimakos]

jmakos, maybe the problem is with me, but I like to defend the underdog, especially if he is a hard-working, decent and kind man, who has a shot on his boyhood dream. I like such stories, similar stories, about drivers who were done and later have their shot. That's why I was cheering for Barrichello, although I don't like his attitude towards Michael and Ferrari, that's why I support Button for the WDC and am happy for Webber, even if I am not a huge fan of Red Bull. That's how I think, it is natural for me. I try not to insult anyone, but sometimes I feel obliged to defend and when on the other side there is a similar urge to bash, sometimes trouble appears. It's up to pino to decide whether this is harmful for the topic (which is IMO done) but from my experience as a moderator haters are infinitely more destructive to a discussion board than apologists.
But maybe it's just me.

First of all my name has and i (jimakos) :p
I agree with you about Badoer he just wanted to come again in f1 but he hadn't realise the big name of his team!
If he runned alone without any team now everyone would say BRAVO for coming back in his 38.
But now Ferrari has to be always in first positions,so fans couldn't see the one of the two formula's to be in last places!
My opinion is to let him 1-2 races more to watch him and after to blaim him.
Don't have a problem neither you neither ioan,you seem experts in F1 ;)

[ioan]

Do not tell me what to do, dear Sir.

Than be my guest and continue stalking me! :laugh:

[F1boat]

First of all my name has and i (jimakos) :p
I agree with you about Badoer he just wanted to come again in f1 but he hadn't realise the big name of his team!
If he runned alone without any team now everyone would say BRAVO for coming back in his 38.
But now Ferrari has to be always in first positions,so fans couldn't see the one of the two formula's to be in last places!
My opinion is to let him 1-2 races more to watch him and after to blaim him.
Don't have a problem neither you neither ioan,you seem experts in F1 ;)

jimakos, sorry for the error with the name ;) And really Ferrari fans obviously want results, but I value the team very much because it seems like one big family and they support each other, no matter what happens. When Felipe had tough times, they supported him. Same with Kimi. I think that it will be same as Luca, at least Luca indicates so, speaking about his relationship with Michael. My point is that I admire in the team that they are very supportive of their drivers and try not to blame them. IMO in Ferrari it is not possible to be sacked with an SMS, like Seb, or to end as ugly as Flavio and Junior. That's nice about them.

[jimakos]

jimakos, sorry for the error with the name ;) And really Ferrari fans obviously want results, but I value the team very much because it seems like one big family and they support each other, no matter what happens. When Felipe had tough times, they supported him. Same with Kimi. I think that it will be same as Luca, at least Luca indicates so, speaking about his relationship with Michael. My point is that I admire in the team that they are very supportive of their drivers and try not to blame them. IMO in Ferrari it is not possible to be sacked with an SMS, like Seb, or to end as ugly as Flavio and Junior. That's nice about them.


Nice F1 boat!That's one thing that and I love in Ferrari!
Is the team I support from a child and don't want this ''family'' to change minds!!
Hope my driver Massa come back as soon as possible for the best on the team :up:

[555-04Q2]

LB. I hope he doesnt drive for Ferrari again. It was just...embarassing watching him.

[pino]

jimakos, sorry for the error with the name ;) And really Ferrari fans obviously want results, but I value the team very much because it seems like one big family and they support each other, no matter what happens. When Felipe had tough times, they supported him. Same with Kimi. I think that it will be same as Luca, at least Luca indicates so, speaking about his relationship with Michael. My point is that I admire in the team that they are very supportive of their drivers and try not to blame them. IMO in Ferrari it is not possible to be sacked with an SMS, like Seb, or to end as ugly as Flavio and Junior. That's nice about them.

Thats how all true Ferrari fans should think and speak :up:

[F1boat]

Thats how all true Ferrari fans should think and speak :up:

Thank you very much :)

[SGWilko]

Well , had Lewis done what the team had asked , he would have had wheels ready .
Had they not asked him to stay out , the wheels were likely there already , because they would have expected him .

Point being , they were ready , but not for the possibilty of Lewis deciding to not obey the directive .

Mind if I call you Jacqui?

You go on and on and on and on like my wife........

It happened - big deal. You were not driving the car, didn't see where the car was when the call to stay out was made, yada yada.....

Oh, wait, if Jaques was in the car - he would have magically extracated himself from the pit lane entry......... achieved world peace.............

;)

[Knock-on]

Mind if I call you Jacqui?

You go on and on and on and on like my wife........

It happened - big deal. You were not driving the car, didn't see where the car was when the call to stay out was made, yada yada.....

Oh, wait, if Jaques was in the car - he would have magically extracated himself from the pit lane entry......... achieved world peace.............

;)

PML :laugh:

...... and finding a cure for Swine Flu :D

[ioan]

Mind if I call you Jacqui?

You go on and on and on and on like my wife........

It happened - big deal. You were not driving the car, didn't see where the car was when the call to stay out was made, yada yada.....

Oh, wait, if Jaques was in the car - he would have magically extracated himself from the pit lane entry......... achieved world peace.............

;)

Let's not go down the name calling route.

[SGWilko]

Let's not go down the name calling route.

I was gonna put Terry, but then my secret would be out then....

...ooops, too late.... :laugh:

[Bagwan]

"Yeah, I was told to come in that lap. Obviously I had been saving as much fuel as I could to go a little bit longer and I think it was probably a little bit unsure whether I had enough or I didn’t have enough and the worst thing to do is to risk it and run out of fuel on that last lap. So they called me in and I was just on my way in and I’d just got inside the white line and I was already committed and they then told me to do an extra lap. I would probably have lost too much time if I had tried to continue, so it happened."

Hammy thinks he knows better .
He was unsure whether he'd have enough fuel . The team thought he had enough .
Then , they asked him to do another lap , and he decided he was "committed" , and would "probably"(so he wasn't sure about the decision , but figured he knew better) "lost too much time if I had tried..." .

So , the team thought he had the time , as Lewis knew they wanted him out .
And the team thought he had enough fuel to get around once more , but Lewis decided he knew better .

In both cases , Lewis didn't trust his team .

Then , when he spoke about it , he didn't say he was sorry for not having trusted his team , he said "so it happened" .

Patsy Ryan must be sad his disposal was not any lesson for Lewis .

[SGWilko]

"Yeah, I was told to come in that lap. Obviously I had been saving as much fuel as I could to go a little bit longer and I think it was probably a little bit unsure whether I had enough or I didn’t have enough and the worst thing to do is to risk it and run out of fuel on that last lap. So they called me in and I was just on my way in and I’d just got inside the white line and I was already committed and they then told me to do an extra lap. I would probably have lost too much time if I had tried to continue, so it happened."

Hammy thinks he knows better .
He was unsure whether he'd have enough fuel . The team thought he had enough .
Then , they asked him to do another lap , and he decided he was "committed" , and would "probably"(so he wasn't sure about the decision , but figured he knew better) "lost too much time if I had tried..." .

So , the team thought he had the time , as Lewis knew they wanted him out .
And the team thought he had enough fuel to get around once more , but Lewis decided he knew better .

In both cases , Lewis didn't trust his team .

Then , when he spoke about it , he didn't say he was sorry for not having trusted his team , he said "so it happened" .

Patsy Ryan must be sad his disposal was not any lesson for Lewis .

Is that you dear?

[Bagwan]

Mind if I call you Jacqui?

You go on and on and on and on like my wife........

It happened - big deal. You were not driving the car, didn't see where the car was when the call to stay out was made, yada yada.....

Oh, wait, if Jaques was in the car - he would have magically extracated himself from the pit lane entry......... achieved world peace.............

;)

Well , as Jacques tells it like it is , he would have accepted that he had made a mistake and apologized to the team .

Lewis's run-on sentence was typical of one telling porkies .

[Bagwan]

Is that you dear?

So , I guess you didn't hear her ask for that divorce at 8:17 then , eh ?

I'm taken , Wilko . Roger that ?

Lewis is a fast kid , but a bit of a liability under pressure , in both the race , and in front of the camera .
He's building quite a rep .

[SGWilko]

So , I guess you didn't hear her ask for that divorce at 8:17 then , eh ?

I'm taken , Wilko . Roger that ?

Lewis is a fast kid , but a bit of a liability under pressure , in both the race , and in front of the camera .
He's building quite a rep .

Nah, she's a kept woman.

Shame, I like maple syrup, squiffy.... ;)

You're missing the point Baggy, Lewis & the team were trying to eek out an extra lap, but being pushed at the same time. It was that tight, that I guess the flow guys would not know for certain if his consumption would allow for an extra lap.

If they had got the extra lap, they stood a better chance to take the fight to Rubens. As it transpired, I imagine that the time lost rejoining from the pit lane entry would have negated the gain from the extra lap - who knows.

[Bagwan]

Nah, she's a kept woman.

Shame, I like maple syrup, squiffy.... ;)

You're missing the point Baggy, Lewis & the team were trying to eek out an extra lap, but being pushed at the same time. It was that tight, that I guess the flow guys would not know for certain if his consumption would allow for an extra lap.

If they had got the extra lap, they stood a better chance to take the fight to Rubens. As it transpired, I imagine that the time lost rejoining from the pit lane entry would have negated the gain from the extra lap - who knows.

Kept for her conversational skills , just like me .

I'm not missing the point at all .
His team would know better than he would . They are looking at screens while he is driving .

You may imagine what you'd like , but Lewis's explanation doesn't ring true for me .
He knows he would have had a better chance , as you said , if he had followed the order to stay out .

[Knock-on]

Baggy, if Lewis said the sky was Blue you wouldn't believe him. Are you trying to wrest ioan's crown ;)

Committed to the pit lane and would have lost too much time rejoining track. These are the words you reported and are trying to hang him as some sort of liar.

You don't like him then fine but lets stick to the facts as you reported them.

[SGWilko]

.
His team would know better than he would . They are looking at screens while he is driving .

Agreed. And if they made the 'stay out' call just too late for it to be safe to exit the pit lane entry.

See, point missed. Roger and out Squiffy - I'm off home to get my ear bent by 'er indoors.

;)

[jens]

1. Timo Glock - ran into Grosjean early in the race and then didn't set the world on fire until he set the FASTEST LAP!?!?!!?


Err, I saw Buemi or someone puncturing Glock's rear tyre on the opening lap, that's why he had to make an additional pitstop. As for the fastest lap, then current TF109 works properly only at the end of stints with tyres up to working temperatures. All in all Timo did all he could, but that's what was possible that afternoon given the circumstances.

In Turkey Jarno qualified 5th and at Silverstone 4th. After that the well-known qualifying star hasn't managed to get into Q3 any more. I suspect Toyota has brought out some kind of an upgrade for the German GP, which doesn't work at all and has caused serious qualifying woes.

[SGWilko]

Baggy, if Lewis said the sky was Blue you wouldn't believe him. Are you trying to wrest ioan's crown ;)

Committed to the pit lane and would have lost too much time rejoining track. These are the words you reported and are trying to hang him as some sort of liar.

You don't like him then fine but lets stick to the facts as you reported them.

Don't be so logical, there really is no need for such bahaviour on this, the ever deteriorating forum.

[ioan]

Baggy, if Lewis said the sky was Blue you wouldn't believe him. Are you trying to wrest ioan's crown ;)

I don't see anything bad in being like ioan! So please stop talking rubbish.

[Viv]

Kept for her conversational skills , just like me .

I'm not missing the point at all .
His team would know better than he would . They are looking at screens while he is driving .

You may imagine what you'd like , but Lewis's explanation doesn't ring true for me .
He knows he would have had a better chance , as you said , if he had followed the order to stay out .

His team would know better than he would if the fuel would last. That said, I feel they could/should've informed him earlier in the lap that he was going to have to do one more. The very fact that it came down to the last moment was a mistake by the team, as also not being ready with the tyres in such a situation. Hence Hamilton's statement of 'We win as a team, lose as a team' is true here. It was a mistake by McLaren - the team, not McLaren - the pit crew/Hamilton.

[Knock-on]

I don't see anything bad in being like ioan! So please stop talking rubbish.

If you don't see anything bad, then why is it rubbish. ;)

I'm sure in your universe it's a compliment :D

[pino]

ioan and knockie, let stop it here thank you !

[Knock-on]

ioan and knockie, let stop it here thank you !

Just a light hearted bit of ribbing Pino. No malice intended as is obvious ;)

[ioan]

Just a light hearted bit of ribbing Pino. No malice intended as is obvious ;)

:D