FIA to hear Renaults appeal today

[Knock-on]

The stewards said Renault's pit crew "knowingly released car number seven from the pit stop position without one of the retaining devices for the wheel-nuts being securely in position, this being an indication that the wheel itself may not have been properly secured."

They also determined that "being aware of this, Renault failed to take any action to prevent the car from leaving the pit lane... and failed to inform the driver of this problem or to advise him to take appropriate action given the circumstances, even though the driver contacted the team by radio believing he had a puncture."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8169649.stm

Well, if the team didn't tell him that there was a chance it was a loose wheel nut, they really don't have a leg to stand on.

There looked like some confusion as the car was released and when Fred radioed in saying it was a puncture, they should have said it was probably a loose wheel nut.

I don't know what their options were but in theory they might have slowed him down but the likely hood is they would still have tried to limp back.

[Dave B]

With Schumacher now not appearing at Valencia the FIA will be keen to get Alonso back out on track to boost ticket sales and viewing figures, so expect the punishment to be commuted to a massive fine and possibly a suspended ban. Money, as ever, will decide the outcome.

[Sonic]

It was a stupid punishment then, and unless the FIA have transcripts from the radio traffic showing that Renault lied to Fred regarding the wheel I for one hope the ban is over ruled. But as that requires common sense it probably won't happen!

[I am evil Homer]

With Schumacher now not appearing at Valencia the FIA will be keen to get Alonso back out on track to boost ticket sales and viewing figures, so expect the punishment to be commuted to a massive fine and possibly a suspended ban. Money, as ever, will decide the outcome.

Doesn't matter....F1 is a primarily TV experience for the majority of fans. Those that bought tickets because they thought they'd see Alonso or Schumacher won't get a refund.

To not ban a team that clearly broke the rules just because their driver is a local favourite would be farcical. Which means it will probably happen :D

[ioan]

With Schumacher now not appearing at Valencia the FIA will be keen to get Alonso back out on track to boost ticket sales and viewing figures, so expect the punishment to be commuted to a massive fine and possibly a suspended ban. Money, as ever, will decide the outcome.

Why should be the FIA's goal to boost tickets sales instead of enforcing the rules?

[ioan]

It was a stupid punishment then, and unless the FIA have transcripts from the radio traffic showing that Renault lied to Fred regarding the wheel I for one hope the ban is over ruled. But as that requires common sense it probably won't happen!

The FIA don't have the transcripts only, they have the team-driver communications registered through the whole race, for each and every team, and they already stated that Renault did not inform their driver that the wheel was lose after he said that he told them he thought he had a puncture.

So, now we use common sense in order to circumvent the rules instead of enforcing them?

[christophulus]

Why should be the FIA's goal to boost tickets sales instead of enforcing the rules?

Turkey and China had tiny crowds so I guess you're right there - why make Valencia an exception? I still have a feeling they'll be let off (wrongly), but then again the FIA have Renault's signature on the Concorde Agreement so can do whatever the hell they like now!

[ShiftingGears]

Stupid punishment.

[ioan]

IMO a massive fine isn't something Renault are keen on, as they aren't such a wealthy team at the moment.
Letting them do the FP1,2,3 but no qualifying and race should be acceptable, but there is need for a serious enough punishment (other than a monetary fine) for what they did.

[Knock-on]

Stupid punishment.

I'm not too sure about that.

IF Renault knew that the wheel was loose and could potentially fly off, they had a duty of care to inform their driver so he could slow down further.

Would we have said it was a silly punishment if the wheel had of come off and struck another driver, Marshall or Spectator. Are the dangers of rougue wheels forgotten so quickly after Henrys death???

If it was a puncture as Alonso guessed, the standard procedure is to get back to the pits as quickly as possible without destroying your car. However, if it's a loose wheel, there may be little warning that it's about to fly off at speed putting both Alonso and other personnel at risk.

I want to see Renault racing but if they have not informed their driver to slow right down because of a possible wheel loss, they deserve the penalty as would any other team out there.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm not too sure about that.

IF Renault knew that the wheel was loose and could potentially fly off, they had a duty of care to inform their driver so he could slow down further.

Would we have said it was a silly punishment if the wheel had of come off and struck another driver, Marshall or Spectator. Are the dangers of rougue wheels forgotten so quickly after Henrys death???

If it was a puncture as Alonso guessed, the standard procedure is to get back to the pits as quickly as possible without destroying your car. However, if it's a loose wheel, there may be little warning that it's about to fly off at speed putting both Alonso and other personnel at risk.

I want to see Renault racing but if they have not informed their driver to slow right down because of a possible wheel loss, they deserve the penalty as would any other team out there.

I believe a hefty monetary fine would suffice. They should be punished but excluding them from a race won't help anyone.

[ioan]

I believe a hefty monetary fine would suffice. They should be punished but excluding them from a race won't help anyone.

And me thinking that buying yourself out of prison shouldn't be allowed.

[wedge]

I'm not too sure about that.

IF Renault knew that the wheel was loose and could potentially fly off, they had a duty of care to inform their driver so he could slow down further.

Would we have said it was a silly punishment if the wheel had of come off and struck another driver, Marshall or Spectator. Are the dangers of rougue wheels forgotten so quickly after Henrys death???

If it was a puncture as Alonso guessed, the standard procedure is to get back to the pits as quickly as possible without destroying your car. However, if it's a loose wheel, there may be little warning that it's about to fly off at speed putting both Alonso and other personnel at risk.

I want to see Renault racing but if they have not informed their driver to slow right down because of a possible wheel loss, they deserve the penalty as would any other team out there.

So what?

Alonso slowed down and the wheel still fell off.

Standard operating procedure is to make it back with three wheels on your wagon regardless if it was a loose wheel or puncture.

Is there a rule that states a driver should park his car with three wheels on your wagon?

A bog standard pit mishap and unfortunately the timing of it was ill. If it was any other day would we get the same over-reaction?

[ShiftingGears]

And me thinking that buying yourself out of prison shouldn't be allowed.

The two are incomparable.

The stewards should've told him to park it immediately.

[Knock-on]

So what?

Alonso slowed down and the wheel still fell off.

Standard operating procedure is to make it back with three wheels on your wagon regardless if it was a loose wheel or puncture.

Is there a rule that states a driver should park his car with three wheels on your wagon?

A bog standard pit mishap and unfortunately the timing of it was ill. If it was any other day would we get the same over-reaction?

I really don't know the answer Wedge.

However, if the team knew the wheel was about to come off, it is their responsibility to say something like:

"Fred, there was a problem with the wheel nut not locating. Slow it right down so it doesn't come flying off."

That way they are seen to be doing the right thing and are doing the right thing.

I was very vocal in my condemnation for the Stewards and Ferrari over the flapping exhaust. Even ioan who disagreed with me then can see why I was so critical in light of the horrific damage to Massa.

This instance occured a week after the death of a promising young man who died because he was struck by a rogue wheel.

Do you really mean "So what"?

[christophulus]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77734


The lawyer representing the team, Ali Malek, told four judges at the hearing in Paris that the punishment handed down by the FIA is unnecessarily harsh, according to a report by Reuters.

"This case does not deserve more than a reprimand," he said, adding that race suspensions should only be used in cases of deliberate rule breaking.

"Was there a conscious wrongdoing from Renault? There was none what-so-ever. The only persons who knew were the two mechanics. Nobody on the pitwall knew there was a problem and the driver did not know either.

"There was a series of unfortunate events but no conscious wrongdoing."

The FIA stewards imposed the suspension on the team after Renault released Fernando Alonso from a pitstop in Hungary before his front right wheel was properly attached.

But Renault claims the mechanics were unable to inform the personnel on the pitwall before Alonso's wheel dislodged.

The lawyer representing the FIA, Paul Harris, said: "There is no doubt what-so-ever this was a serious incident. The car should not have been left out on the track.

"The mechanics are employed by the team and their knowledge must be attributed to the team. Renault cannot simply rely on their flawed procedures to say they could not communicate. Two wrongs don't make a right."


So in the minute or so that Alonso was on track after leaving the pits, before the wheel detached, the mechanics had no way to tell the pit wall the wheel wasn't attached? I don't buy that for a second.

[wedge]

I really don't know the answer Wedge.

However, if the team knew the wheel was about to come off, it is their responsibility to say something like:

"Fred, there was a problem with the wheel nut not locating. Slow it right down so it doesn't come flying off."

That way they are seen to be doing the right thing and are doing the right thing.

I was very vocal in my condemnation for the Stewards and Ferrari over the flapping exhaust. Even ioan who disagreed with me then can see why I was so critical in light of the horrific damage to Massa.

This instance occured a week after the death of a promising young man who died because he was struck by a rogue wheel.

Do you really mean "So what"?

I just hate the politically correct times we live where Allied deaths in Afghansitan and Iraq equals foreign policy failure. (Sorry, just had to get it out of my system)

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Motorsport is dangerous and very happy to live with it but things like the flapping exhaust I found dispicable. Massa and Surtees incidents were freakish.

Pitstop stop miscues, rogues wheels are one of those necessary evils. The pressures are immense and mistakes are inevitable.

At this rate we might as well ban pit stops altogether.

[Knock-on]

It is a harsh penalty without a shadow of a doubt and reflects the situation.

The mechanics released a car without it being fit to race and the team didn't act in a way that safeguarded their drivers and spectators.

Consequently a wheel went running off at speed and could have caused a serious incident.

Renault claim that there was not enough time to inform the pit of the incident which is very worrying.

You have to ask yourself whether this had anything to do with Flavs role during the threatened breakaway. He was after all a main protagonist.

You also have to balance this against Ferrari's exhaust where they received no penalty and were not even made to come in and fix it.

If you put both side by side, it looks very inconsistant but we must also take into account the knee jerk response of the FIA to any given situation.

I don't see the point in banning a team when they haven't been cheating. There is zero value in it, teams are here to go racing and that's what we all need to see.

On reflection, I think that Renault should have a 2 - 5 point reduction.

[Knock-on]

I just hate the politically correct times we live where Allied deaths in Afghansitan and Iraq equals foreign policy failure. (Sorry, just had to get it out of my system)

Live by the sword, die by the sword.

Motorsport is dangerous and very happy to live with it but things like the flapping exhaust I found dispicable. Massa and Surtees incidents were freakish.

Pitstop stop miscues, rogues wheels are one of those necessary evils. The pressures are immense and mistakes are inevitable.

At this rate we might as well ban pit stops altogether.

I was watching an interview recently with JYS where he questioned the safety of todays cars and tracks. However, I think I will go against the Great Laddie on this one and say I would rather have the boys come home than see cars flying past a driver durning to death in a wrecked car.

If a wheel comes off in an accident, it's something you cannot legislate against but the whole point was that this incident could have been resolved by

a) Not releasing the car till it was fixed
b) Slowing right down to 30kph where if it still came off, it would unlikely do any damage.

[christophulus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-tAB9Lk-A

The part that sealed it for me was looking at the onboard footage of the pit stop, the front right wheel mechanic put up his hand to signal the wheel was on - and then continued trying to tighten the spinner/hubcap as Alonso drove off!

I know it's a race and every tenth of a second counts but the mechanic must have known the wheel wasn't on right, or at least had his suspicions, because why else would he try to tighten the spinner as the car was released?

Putting your hand up to signal you've finished the job without actually checking is not on, and then not raising your suspicions with the team is extremely negligent.

[ioan]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77734


So in the minute or so that Alonso was on track after leaving the pits, before the wheel detached, the mechanics had no way to tell the pit wall the wheel wasn't attached? I don't buy that for a second.

I don't either. Why do they all have radio gear? Just because it's fancy?!
I feel that the FIA and it's CoA are becoming some kind of circus and can't wait to see Todt cleaning up this mess once and for all.

[ioan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wt-tAB9Lk-A

The part that sealed it for me was looking at the onboard footage of the pit stop, the front right wheel mechanic put up his hand to signal the wheel was on - and then continued trying to tighten the spinner/hubcap as Alonso drove off!

I know it's a race and every tenth of a second counts but the mechanic must have known the wheel wasn't on right, or at least had his suspicions, because why else would he try to tighten the spinner as the car was released?

Putting your hand up to signal you've finished the job without actually checking is not on, and then not raising your suspicions with the team is extremely negligent.

On top of that there were 2 mechanics there not one, one that put his hand up and the other one who was trying to check the wheel hub while Alonso drove off!

[ioan]

I was watching an interview recently with JYS where he questioned the safety of todays cars and tracks. However, I think I will go against the Great Laddie on this one and say I would rather have the boys come home than see cars flying past a driver durning to death in a wrecked car.

If a wheel comes off in an accident, it's something you cannot legislate against but the whole point was that this incident could have been resolved by

a) Not releasing the car till it was fixed
b) Slowing right down to 30kph where if it still came off, it would unlikely do any damage.

I agree.

Those who say that danger is part of the show and should stay like that never really sailed close enough to the wind before. :\