Alms 2010

[harvick#1]

http://americanlemans.com/index_news.php?n=13593

must say, they are doing the best they can to survive and to keep car counts up, hopefully there will be a better road ahead

[Mark in Oshawa]

The whole problem ALMS has is they are at the mercy of manufacturers and how important they view any races beyond LeMans. It is sad that Audi isn't contesting the whole series, and the Porsches came and are maybe back in privateer hands. Having Penske around was a plus.

Oh well, It is Sportscar racing and we'll enjoy it. Glad they finally gave up on GT1. That should have happened two years ago....

[Shifter]

question: is having both Grand-Am and ALMS hurting sports car racing overall in North America? I can't tell, and from my experience ALMS has a dedicated fan base, more-so than G-A. ALMS cars are more amazing in-person, and the better GT series now, yet something has to be said for the rivalries and on-track battling going on in DP. It seems as if ALMS might have a trump card in LMPC that should foster DP-Style battles while retaining true-blue LMP1 prototypes if successfully implemented. But, what'll happen as far as combining LMP1 and LMP2? Are there still two sets of technical regulations inside of the LMP class in 2010? Will the cars be 'equalized'?

[Oli_M]

I think this is a sensible move by ALMS. I'm a big fan of sportscar racing but sadly the ALMS this year has just not interested me at all - 2 cars don't make a class to me.

I tend to have the same question as Shifter. Personally, I've found this year G-A has better racing, given the 'spec' nature and having just 2 classes. These cars look awesome on the Daytona roval, and personally I think they'd do well running as a support to NASCAR but on the road courses and rovals.

ALMS has possibly got better cars - I'm not completely fond of spec series in any form of racing, plus I always have the feeling that its taken a bit more seriously by Sports car drivers and fans.

Another question - what are the technical differences between the GT class that runs in G-A, and the GT3 that will run in ALMS? I'm glad GT1 has gone - but overall I still think GT classes need a serious re-vamp world wide, to maintain alignment (to encourage more participation by manufacturers, and more entries in series) and I don't have a clue what that answer is!

[wedge]

I'm glad GT1 has gone - but overall I still think GT classes need a serious re-vamp world wide, to maintain alignment (to encourage more participation by manufacturers, and more entries in series) and I don't have a clue what that answer is!

ACO will run FIA spec GT regs

[Jag_Warrior]

ACO will run FIA spec GT regs

Finally! How many years have they been talking about arriving at a common formula for GT?

Oh yeah, and what's this I've heard about a World Championship? Is this going to be a based on selected FIA, ALMS and LMS races?

[Lee Roy]

Personally, I've found this year G-A has better racing, given the 'spec' nature and having just 2 classes.

What is your definition of 'spec'? I thought that there were several chasis manufacturers and several engine suppliers in Grand Am. Am I missing something?

Just curious, not combative? ;)

[harvick#1]

I do not understand why people need more manu in GT.

in GT2 there is Porsche, Ferrari, BMW, Chevrolet, Dodge, Ford, Spyker, Panoz, and now Jaguar. thats a pretty damn good list

if anything we need teams to produce LMP's also

[Lee Roy]

What is your definition of 'spec'? I thought that there were several chasis manufacturers and several engine suppliers in Grand Am. Am I missing something?

Just curious, not combative? ;)

I just checked the Grand-Am website and there are 7 different engines and 5 different chasis currently being used in the Daytona Prototype class. Not sure how that is 'spec'.

http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/RolexMfgPoints10.pdf

[Oli_M]

What is your definition of 'spec'? I thought that there were several chasis manufacturers and several engine suppliers in Grand Am. Am I missing something?

Just curious, not combative? ;)

The chassis and bodywork has to be made to a strict set of templates and the cars are 'homolagated' for X years, so you have to use one of the 5 legal chassis. Yes its not a strict spec like (say) GP2 cars, but its certainly not as open as ALMS, if you can see what I mean?

I enjoy watching G-A racing because the cars are so equal, often you find in other series some cars are more suited to certain tracks etc.

Having said that, I only watch G-A for the DP class, to be honest I don't pay any attention to the GT class...... Where as with the Le Mans (European) series, I do watch the Gt classes too..... weird I know....

[Lee Roy]

Thanks

[wedge]

The chassis and bodywork has to be made to a strict set of templates and the cars are 'homolagated' for X years, so you have to use one of the 5 legal chassis. Yes its not a strict spec like (say) GP2 cars, but its certainly not as open as ALMS, if you can see what I mean?

I enjoy watching G-A racing because the cars are so equal, often you find in other series some cars are more suited to certain tracks etc.

Having said that, I only watch G-A for the DP class, to be honest I don't pay any attention to the GT class...... Where as with the Le Mans (European) series, I do watch the Gt classes too..... weird I know....

The funny thing is Mazda RX-8 competing with Porsche 911!

[FIAT1]

I would pay to see Audi race 2 cars then spec grand am 30 cars side by side. That,s me and I love high tech cars and competicion therefore ALMS is perfect fit for my taste.

[Shifter]

Grand-Am is not officially spec, but the rulebook is so airtight it creates a spec-like series, and to save time we just go ahead and call it spec. There are 2 dominant chassis, though i think it's down to better funding than the others. The biggest difference is the engines, there's two types of Porsche engines, the 6 and the V8 (Cayenne), and there are clear differences in the advantages of each.

Wedge is right, the GT class is even harder to explain...koni challenge is better.

(sorry for hijacking the thread a bit...I'll behave I promise)

[Bob Riebe]

What is your definition of 'spec'? I thought that there were several chasis manufacturers and several engine suppliers in Grand Am. Am I missing something?

Just curious, not combative? ;)
Just like the IMSA they are spec. equalized because otherwise it would not be fair.(It used to be racing improved the product, but hell, it is easier to simply dummy all down to a common denominator)
I am waiting for them to take the next step in fairness like they are starting to do in grade school ballgames; not keep score so no one is hurt.

[Oli_M]

I would pay to see Audi race 2 cars then spec grand am 30 cars side by side. That,s me and I love high tech cars and competicion therefore ALMS is perfect fit for my taste.

I agree completely.

Well, more precisely, something like 1 Audi vs 1 908 vs 1 Aston Martin (or any 2 of these!) would have me watching it.

However, that has happened at what, Le Mans, Sebring, Spa and possibly will be at PLM. Anyway, enough of the past, let's look forward to 2010 now, hopefully the new rules will encourage teams, sponsors and, most importantly, fans.

[nigelred5]

The funny thing is Mazda RX-8 competing with Porsche 911!

Which I believe is actually built on the same Riley and Scott GT chassis as raced under the Pontiac G6.

[racefanfromnj]

Which I believe is actually built on the same Riley and Scott GT chassis as raced under the Pontiac G6.

not to be Ned Nit"Pickey but The Pontiacs are built byPratt and Miller the Mazda is built by Riley

[Lee Roy]

Just like the IMSA they are spec. equalized because otherwise it would not be fair.(It used to be racing improved the product, but hell, it is easier to simply dummy all down to a common denominator)
I am waiting for them to take the next step in fairness like they are starting to do in grade school ballgames; not keep score so no one is hurt.

Le Mans and ALMS also do equalizations through the rules. Why is it okay for them and not for Grand Am?

[Bob Riebe]

Le Mans and ALMS also do equalizations through the rules. Why is it okay for them and not for Grand Am?Prejudicial blinders.
I am not fond of what the France family did to the Daytona 24 hrs., but some IMSA fans speak of allowing the DP cars in and making them a special slow class.

Their tech. ignorance is only over whelmed by their prejudice .
The only thing keeping the DPs as slow as they are, are the silly GARRA rules; as if one would remove the GARRA spec. engine and put in a plain old non-restricted NASCAR V-8. what the DP so powered would do to the vaunted Audi or Peugot would be a very sad day for either of the euro car makers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Prejudicial blinders.
I am not fond of what the France family did to the Daytona 24 hrs., but some IMSA fans speak of allowing the DP cars in and making them a special slow class.

Their tech. ignorance is only over whelmed by their prejudice .
The only thing keeping the DPs as slow as they are, are the silly GARRA rules; as if one would remove the GARRA spec. engine and put in a plain old non-restricted NASCAR V-8. what the DP so powered would do to the vaunted Audi or Peugot would be a very sad day for either of the euro car makers.

Bob...the Silly GARRA rules are the whole point. The wide greenhouse stops anyone from building too much downforce into the cars.

Takeaway the GARRA rules and you would have one of Dyson's closed body LMP cars with a stock block. I would hope it would rock along pretty good. Every race car is built to exploit and go right up to the edge of the rules. If you take a DP and let it run to LeMans Rules it wont be an DP no more. Since you want to knock the Euro's....remember they are being restricted in the amount of air the car can take in the motor. You think that NASCAR v-8 is a superior piece of technology because it can run 850hp with no air restrictor? Take the shackles off those diesels and they will run with like jack the bear.....

[Bob Riebe]

Bob...the Silly GARRA rules are the whole point. The wide greenhouse stops anyone from building too much downforce into the cars.

Takeaway the GARRA rules and you would have one of Dyson's closed body LMP cars with a stock block. I would hope it would rock along pretty good. Every race car is built to exploit and go right up to the edge of the rules. If you take a DP and let it run to LeMans Rules it wont be an DP no more. Since you want to knock the Euro's....remember they are being restricted in the amount of air the car can take in the motor. You think that NASCAR v-8 is a superior piece of technology because it can run 850hp with no air restrictor? Take the shackles off those diesels and they will run with like jack the bear.....
The ONLY-ONLY reason the diesels can win is because the gasoline engines are restricted; that is a matter of physics and chemistry.
Put both on track unrestricted and the diesels would be the first losers at the end of the race.

I am not going to argue that the GARRA car design rules are not obtuse, but the IMSA/ACO rules are just as silly and restrictive as are the GARRA rules.
Go back a couple of years and read up on the GT! rule flip-flopping when Aston Martin came in and complained- as is- the Aston Martin could not keep up with the Corvettes, so they changed the restorictors and....

[RalfsLastFan]

The new LMP2 that I heard described on the last race struck me as interesting from a political point of view. What will the running costs of one of those spec Oreca cars be vs. a DP? And AAC seems to be close to the Grand-Am GT3 (they're both using some sort of GT3 Cup car as a base, if I understand correctly). Could Panoz be making a bid to pull some teams away from France?

[Jag_Warrior]

Oh yeah, and what's this I've heard about a World Championship? Is this going to be a based on selected FIA, ALMS and LMS races?

Any word on this World Championship, anybody? I've searched around a bit, but I haven't found anything else about this. It's something I heard mentioned during the last ALMS race. Is it just for ACO series, or a combo of FIA and ACO series? Is it for 2010, 2011 or "20-keep wishing"???

[dj4monie]

There is no "actual" World Championship, yet. Don't hold your breath but the ACO is seriously considering this. But they have the fix the problems with the proposed Asian-Pacific Le Mans Series.

Lord Drayson has announced along with his LMP1 debut at Petit, they will also go to Japan to support the ACO.

We are at least 2-3 years away from some sort of World Championship For Makes.

That won't stop Ratel and the FIA from adding "World" to this GT Championship however, that's slated to start next season.

My feelings on the proposed rules changes in ALMS are documented elsewhere on the web, in short I give them a thumbs up, not too many changes actually and adding one additional class is a good idea. LMPC smacks of ALMS' version of DP's but they are where they belong somewhere behind the LMP1 class or should I say LMP class (2010).

What I wanted to talk about in this thread however is the schedule. For next year and TV. According to Murphy the St Petersberg round (Round 2) is off for next year and won't be missed by many of the teams since they were limited on track time. I think unless IRL is willing to open it up a bit (This would be AGR thing since they are the promoters) and allow for more on-track time, it won't be that big a loss (I think).

We still have Long Beach :)

So the early part of the schedule will look like this -

Sebring
Long Beach GP

In place of St Pete, Murphy hears Sears Point might be back on. This seams to be a working of shared weekends with IRL. Since the IRL is racing in NoCal this weekend, it would fit, since the ALMS has the week off before Mosport.

If this is the case, then that would mean shared weekends might be back on the table.

If we could get Detroit back, that would bring the total of shared weekends back to 3. Maybe they could add Watkins Glen since the IRL runs there ahead of Mid Ohio.

I still think the ALMS should be min 12 races more ideally 14 races.

As with many of you I still can't believe there's no push for a Mexico race, but if Fernandez doesn't return (they will not get engines as sponsorship from HPD, they will have to lease the engines next year) I guess its not important anymore, then again they did talk about it way before they were in the series and when CART was running down there.

I also know there's some talk of returning to Portland.

So here's ALMS 2010 as I see it -

Sebring
Long Beach
(If Utah is dropped), open date going into Le Mans break
Lime Rock
Mid Ohio (with IRL)
Road America
Sears Point (with IRL)
Mosport
Detroit (with IRL, if it returns)
Petit Le Mans
4hrs at Laguna Seca

That would be 10 races again, with only 2 before the Le Mans break and a month off plus between Sebring and Round 2.

I think the ALMS should work hard with the IRL on shared weekends. Both series have there own signature races and to be totally honest I question the validity of Sebring as most people there are around because of Spring Break and not so much because of the race, but it looks good when you wanna quote attendance.

I think the St Pete issues can be solved by having open testing on say Thurs for the ALMS and then have qualifying on Friday and the Race on Saturday instead of Practice and Qualifying on Friday, then the race on Saturday.

I like St Pete, if I lived closer I would go. The fans turnout looks pretty good every year we've been there, I don't see why we don't return. I don't think its a money issue, just a time issue. Also let the ALMS run its traditional 2:45 mins at both St Pete and Long Beach, it doesn't make much sense. There is no Trans Am series anymore. You don't have to invite Speed GT if you REALLY don't want too and if Altantics goes away after this season, you'll have more time at Long Beach by default. You can also do without the Drift Series as well if more serious motorsports get its time pushed back.

Finally, Murphy also says that there's no more broadcast TV for the ALMS. This is a good and bad thing. Some fans haven't made the switch to HD on their Cable system or Sat systems siting cost issues, which makes plenty of sense. For me personally, I have to funnel any HD signal from Direct TV through an S-Video plug. So I don't get full benefit from Direct TV's HD programing. The only races I get to see in Pure HD are the rounds hosted on Network TV. Moving away from ABC makes no sense especially if were going to be at St Pete and Long Beach, ABC is already carrying those races, unless Versus takes those over too.

Having it on Speed means no taped delayed races, maybe. I believe one or two races were same day coverage just not live this season.

So what do you all think of the proposed changes to the schedule and TV contract?

[dj4monie]

Bob...the Silly GARRA rules are the whole point. The wide greenhouse stops anyone from building too much downforce into the cars.

Takeaway the GARRA rules and you would have one of Dyson's closed body LMP cars with a stock block. I would hope it would rock along pretty good. Every race car is built to exploit and go right up to the edge of the rules. If you take a DP and let it run to LeMans Rules it wont be an DP no more. Since you want to knock the Euro's....remember they are being restricted in the amount of air the car can take in the motor. You think that NASCAR v-8 is a superior piece of technology because it can run 850hp with no air restrictor? Take the shackles off those diesels and they will run with like jack the bear.....

I agree with Bob most of the time actually but he's been off the reservation awhile with his anti-ACO rants.

While NASCAR engines make 850hp, rumored 900hp@9-10K rpm, I agree with Mark that unfettered Diesel power because of turbocharging would crush small block V8's, the aren't making the 1000+lbs of torque a Audi diesel would make. In fact Audi gave up some torque production to get more high speed horsepower. The Audi with traction control would rocket out of a slow speed turn like no car you have ever seen...

DP's as was explained a few times by drivers on Midweek Motorsports are easy to drive for gentlemen drivers, but hard to get the last few tenths from by Professional Drivers and if you have watched it like I have, that's basically taking more risk in traffic, carrying more speed into turns and braking later than the bravery of a gentlemen would allow.

This is why Mika Dudo had basically no impact on the outcome of the races in which she shared with Andy Wallace, as Andy did the bulk of the driving anyway. She is just marginally faster than most of the gentlemen drivers in GARRA.

In other news -

Porsche is rumored to be dropping support of the DP and GT programs in GARRA next year. Funny how ALMS is expanding which Porsche will be allowed in GTC next year, as I said before, I can mention at least two disgruntled Porsche teams in GARRA. Porsche might go out with a bang though winning both the DP and GT titles this season.

I do see Buckler and FBL both fielding GTC cars for Gentlemen drivers and then both having maybe one or two GT2/GT cars with Porsche factory drivers.

Alex Job is the rumored Fla team that might run a GT car next season.

[wedge]

Any word on this World Championship, anybody? I've searched around a bit, but I haven't found anything else about this. It's something I heard mentioned during the last ALMS race. Is it just for ACO series, or a combo of FIA and ACO series? Is it for 2010, 2011 or "20-keep wishing"???

Intercontinental Cup

Selected races eg. Sebring and PLM have been touted along with selected LMS and Asian LMS races where teams will be invited for mini world championship.

Would love to see Audi and Peugeots do battle at Suzuka 1000.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Intercontinental Cup

Selected races eg. Sebring and PLM have been touted along with selected LMS and Asian LMS races where teams will be invited for mini world championship.

Would love to see Audi and Peugeots do battle at Suzuka 1000.

forget audi and peugeot, we need a ferrari works team! (plus not forgetting the lola astons) but one can dream.....

[Bob Riebe]

I agree with Bob most of the time actually but he's been off the reservation awhile with his anti-ACO rants.

While NASCAR engines make 850hp, rumored 900hp@9-10K rpm, I agree with Mark that unfettered Diesel power because of turbocharging would crush small block V8's, the aren't making the 1000+lbs of torque a Audi diesel would make. In fact Audi gave up some torque production to get more high speed horsepower. The Audi with traction control would rocket out of a slow speed turn like no car you have ever seen...

You are ignoring the laws of physics and the laws that determine how greater production is extracted from a diesel verses gasoline engine.

Diesels, cannot rev. above 5,200 rpm or the laws of physics and dieseldom set in and the engines eventually go pfffft.
Fuel flow is how power is controlled in a diesel.

By putting restrictors on gasolilne engines, a de facto-rpm limiter and a absolute power delivery reducer.
A gasoline engine can only rev. as long as it can breath. By strangling the engines rpms are stricktly controlled, by controlling rpms, with already reduced hp due reduce fuel flow, gasoline engines cannot continue to produce power in the revolution range that will allow them to easliy pull away from diesels as at 2,200 rpm diesels have his a brick-wall.

The ACO knows this and it is why diesels are winning and no gasoline engine is more than a also (UNTIL the iMSA had the balls to ignore ACO rules and allow p2 Porsches changes that stopped the series from becoming in the p classes what the GT1 already were, a boring parade)

[Bob Riebe]

forget audi and peugeot, we need a ferrari works team! (plus not forgetting the lola astons) but one can dream.....
It will never happen, as Ferrari factory lives and dies for F-1.
Till the day, I die I will regret not going to Road America in 2003, when Ferrari loyalists put the fear of God, in the Chebby boys.
One of those coulda, shoulda, no reason to have not to, things you never stop regretting.

[UltimateDanGTR]

It will never happen, as Ferrari factory lives and dies for F-1.


unfortunatly thats true. its a shame, a real shame, ferrari, porsche, ford, jaguar, nissan etc-all names that belong in sportscar racing. i for one would love to see a world championship with all those big names, its the ultimate dream of any sportscar enthusiast. mind you, theres nothing wrong with smaller non-car-manufacturer independent constructors like pescarolo, courage, creation etc.

[dj4monie]

You are ignoring the laws of physics and the laws that determine how greater production is extracted from a diesel verses gasoline engine.

Diesels, cannot rev. above 5,200 rpm or the laws of physics and dieseldom set in and the engines eventually go pfffft.
Fuel flow is how power is controlled in a diesel.

By putting restrictors on gasolilne engines, a de facto-rpm limiter and a absolute power delivery reducer.
A gasoline engine can only rev. as long as it can breath. By strangling the engines rpms are stricktly controlled, by controlling rpms, with already reduced hp due reduce fuel flow, gasoline engines cannot continue to produce power in the revolution range that will allow them to easliy pull away from diesels as at 2,200 rpm diesels have his a brick-wall.

The ACO knows this and it is why diesels are winning and no gasoline engine is more than a also (UNTIL the iMSA had the balls to ignore ACO rules and allow p2 Porsches changes that stopped the series from becoming in the p classes what the GT1 already were, a boring parade)

Actually I'm not ignoring it...

Nobody really knows how OEM level engineered N/A powered car will run vs the Diesels. We have an idea, but that's comparing, Audi's 2nd brand new Diesel car with an constantly improved 908 that had an aero and power advantage. All to a first year AMR effort and they had pretty much had to throw out much of what they learned last year since the ACO changed the rear wings.

In 2010 they are demanding teams close in the rear bodywork.

Petit will be the first time a fully sorted Acura will be able to race vs the two dominate Diesel cars.

Gale Banks has been working hard on trying to lighten diesel engines to run at high speeds and improve fuel delivery.

Audi has built a 2nd generation PURE Racing Diesel engine, they haven't released a ton of info about the engine but I think its safe to say rev limit is around 7,000rpm, not 5k.

It likely just has iron or high steel liners in the cylinders and specialized multi-valve overhead cam heads. But outside of all the things you need for a diesel engine, I'm pretty sure its build much like a current F1 V10 engine.

[InTTruder]

Where is it a fact that diesels cannot rev above 5200 rpm?

Direct port fuel injection with High Pressure pumps solves the fueling issue. Then strength of materials determines what the limit is, and air available for combustion.

[InTTruder]

forget audi and peugeot, we need a ferrari works team! (plus not forgetting the lola astons) but one can dream.....

Risi Competizione isn't?
:p

[InTTruder]

Chemistry of fuel-
Gasoline has approximately 20,000 btu/lbm of high octane gasoline. YMMV, depending on how ACO and ALMS control the mix.
DF2 has 19,673 btu/lbm.

The absolute difference is that a gallon of DF weighs about 8% more (7.08 versus 6.5 lbs/gall) than gasoline, so a 'tank' of a certain volume has mre stored energy. Hence the recent restrictions of tank size, etc for DF2 burners.

My point: diesel isn't faster because of chemistry, but it does have the capability to go further for each gallon burned. That alone is a huge advantage, and why the diesels have a few more restrictions in the attempt to set parity on-track.

[dj4monie]

Where is it a fact that diesels cannot rev above 5200 rpm?

Direct port fuel injection with High Pressure pumps solves the fueling issue. Then strength of materials determines what the limit is, and air available for combustion.

That's correct, I don't know if Bob has been following modern Turbo-Diesel technology. Audi and "The Lion" have built this first modern PURE racing diesel engines that use strong yet high tech and highly expensive parts.

This is the reason why others specialty engine builders have NO Racing Turbo-Diesel Engines even if they enjoyed an advantage in the rules. Both John Judd and AEM have said that they do not have the resources of the OEM.

This is why AEM does not have Direct Injection when Audi sported that on the R8 years earlier. Judd does not have to money to develop a Direct Injection system and Acura felt they'll keep that for when they actually need it. A 5-10% jump in power and 20-25% in fuel economy is nothing to laugh at and combined with the larger restrictor given to N/A cars by the ACO for 2010, its very possible N/A cars by AMR and Acura can in FACT be on complete pace with the Turbo-Diesels.

You will see a 908 next year with a electric motor. I promise you without even knowing, unlike Corsa and Zytex the electric motor will power the car down pit lane. From pit in to pit out, the diesel motor will be off and since they have the resources to develop the ECU software needed for supreme control via throttle input.

A Hybrid car can work, but only the OEM's have the resources to develop it from start to finish and not a middling project in progress like the Corsa effort.

When I found out Corsa was running a Group 92 Mercedes Benz street car battery to power the electric motor, I knew this is a program lacking in funding, not desire, knowledge or effort.

This is why I feel sorry for Zytek and Corsa because I think they'll be eclipsed by a properly ran and fund Toyota effort who just like Audi has all the reasons to push Diesel, Toyota will have to make its Hybrids appeal to more than the well-healed and tree huggers. They'll be able to prove that having a electric motor in tandem with a high powered IC engine, as the Ford Fusion runs up to 47mph on just electric power alone; adds economy and performance for a modest weight gain.

This is an interesting time for Sportscar Racing, there things that can work vs Diesels. Let's not forget both Porsche and Acura have beaten Audi STRAIGHT UP (This would be 2007 and 2008). The ACO tried to slow the P2's down, all Acura did was turn up the downforce and improved the suspension on the car and Porsche countered with direct injection and aero improvements.

[Bob Riebe]

DJ:
When I speak of diesel I mean one that uses what is "street" diesel fuel, and no fifty-two hundred is not a magic number but a common one. (At least one commercial diesel has a fuel shut-off at fifty-five hundred.

High pressure, direct injection is NOT a new idea.

Racing (will not run on street fuel,) "diesels" are said to have theoretical limits, and just like gasoline engines, that limit exists because of the ability to get fuel and air in without a part going pffft,.(I have heard the current ones are rumored to hit the six thousand range)
These engines are using a fuel closer to a fuel in the AA/F category than diesel fuel, much less the unleaded crap racing gasoline engines are forced to use.
At the same time if a gasoline engine had no more restrictions on fuel than the diesel engines do, they could brew a oxygenated fuel that would embarrass the diesels.(but again as fuel flow governs the diesels, the ACO, who wins restrictions, would be adjusted again to make sure the gasoline engines were crippled again.)

Which then leads to transmissions and gearing which could make the diesel delivery more--efficient, but as top line trannies now are six figure items, it makes the diesel verses gasoline comparison a bigger farce withWHO WINS rules now encompassing engine design, fuel design, and transmission design. All created by the ACO, not physics or which company produces the best product.
I.e. who is allowed to apply what, to what, and how, is STRICTLY the ONLY thing that determines who wins (with the pocket book, being a major aside).

I guess it is how the GARRA rules would look if Roger Peske wrote them.

As I said, if these two engine types were to go head to head without the ACO forced slow down items, the diesels would not stand a snowballs chance in hell.
The reason racing vehicles have not used diesels up to the this point is based on physics and chemistry, now it is contrived ACO rules that let the ignorant huddled masses think other wise.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So Bob, Basically if the ACO went "Bring what you want, we don't care" you would be a fan. For a year or two It might work...then a car or two might end up in the stands. Or the parade would be boring and only the 4 or 5 factory cars would be worth watching.

Racing organizations have handicapped technology and racing since the end of the old CanAM where it may be the last series that had rules that basically allowed the freedom you want.

Bob, you have bashed GARRA and ACO for handicapping gas cars, any cars, diesel cars or anything else but the truth has always been they do this for a reason. Two actually. Cost control, and safety. Add in they don't want one team mopping the floor year after year spending millions to do it. We saw how that works in f1, and it is the greatest spectacle and yet the most boring racing. F1 gets away with it...Sportscars wont....

[Bob Riebe]

So Bob, Basically if the ACO went "Bring what you want, we don't care" you would be a fan. For a year or two It might work...then a car or two might end up in the stands. Or the parade would be boring and only the 4 or 5 factory cars would be worth watching.


No major series in the U.S. has EVER SAID, without exception, "Bring what you want, we don't care" so that point is vacuous but to the rest;

Your first point: Paranoia based on --nothing,-- but fear, for the sake of fear.

Your second point: Already exists and always has and always will without regard to the rules.
This is why close races used to be so well remembered. They were exceptions based on different teams efforts and desire to win, not a contrived farce.

---The exception, to the latter, being, before IMSA, ACO-inspired restrictor mania, many tracks had fields of forty some cars,(in one to two classes) with the big one at Daytona reaching the sixties.
Many cars creates much interest, WITHOUT regard to how many of those have a chance to win the race.( these are cars that made the race, not counting entries that did not make it.)

Even before the current IMSA, as the old one made the rules more and more restrictive, the size of fields shrank.
The current IMSA seems to be arrogant or asininely ignorant to that fact, as they have followed the same path that destroyed the original IMSA.

[dj4monie]

The CAN-AM was in fact run whatever you could come up with as long as it was safe...

Given what little they knew about active suspension, active aero, ground effects or fluid dynamics back in the Can Am's heyday, they still did pretty well with little alum chassis and big block Alum Chevy power (Chevy wasn't building Alum blocks in-house, Alcoa was)

Mark is right a modern Can Am series would be too dangerous.

18,000rpm 3.0L V8 or V10 engines with twin turbos and electric hybrid start motors they double as "Push to Pass" and Pit Lane power.

My guess with no limitations on boost - 2,000hp off the electric motor, maybe 2,200-2,300hp with the electric assist.

Active Aero and Suspension, it would be insanely fast. F1 wouldn't stand a chance, once you open the can of Whoop Ass with the throttle, only a Top Fuel Dragster might be faster...

Modern Tilke designed tracks might have a chance, but yep Mark is right at Mosport, Road Atlanta, Road America, its only a matter of time before the car would launch itself and kill not only the driver but a few fans as well.

Though it would be seriously interesting until then...

[Bob Riebe]

The CAN-AM was in fact run whatever you could come up with as long as it was safe...That statement is a bit illogical, if you had to make it meet x,y, or z, then you were building to rules, not whatever you liked

Unlike todays contrived, or forced farce, racing, in all classes, consisted of as few rules as possible.

Given what little they knew about active suspension, active aero, ground effects or fluid dynamics back in the Can Am's heyday, they still did pretty well with little alum chassis and big block Alum Chevy power (Chevy wasn't building Alum blocks in-house, Alcoa was)

Mark is right a modern Can Am series would be too dangerous.

18,000rpm 3.0L V8 or V10 engines with twin turbos and electric hybrid start motors they double as "Push to Pass" and Pit Lane power.

My guess with no limitations on boost - 2,000hp off the electric motor, maybe 2,200-2,300hp with the electric assist.--The big block Detroit engines could match that easily with far less cost and far, far, far less complexity and hassle

Active Aero and Suspension, it would be insanely fast. F1 wouldn't stand a chance, once you open the can of Whoop Ass with the throttle, only a Top Fuel Dragster might be faster...

Modern Tilke designed tracks might have a chance, but yep Mark is right at Mosport, Road Atlanta, Road America, its only a matter of time before the car would launch itself and kill not only the driver but a few fans as well.Paranioa with no basis other than fear for the sake of fear

Though it would be seriously interesting until then...

The Can-Am had a limit of over two-liters mimimum from the get-go, there were other rules obviously but it was NEVER as open as people want to think.
That hype made good press though.
More rules were added also as the years went by.
Good or bad, the vacuum cleaner Chaparral should never have been allowed.

Reynolds created the all-alloy engine blocks (no steel liner.) They and Chevrolet worked together on the 390 alloy, which was also used in the Porsche V-8 a few years later. (Ford worked with Alcoa)
The Tonawanda plant did the casting.

[dj4monie]

The Can-Am had a limit of over two-liters mimimum from the get-go, there were other rules obviously but it was NEVER as open as people want to think.
That hype made good press though.
More rules were added also as the years went by.
Good or bad, the vacuum cleaner Chaparral should never have been allowed.

Reynolds created the all-alloy engine blocks (no steel liner.) They and Chevrolet worked together on the 390 alloy, which was also used in the Porsche V-8 a few years later. (Ford worked with Alcoa)
The Tonawanda plant did the casting.

So you basically want to disconnect from modern technology? Just WHO is making big bore V8's anymore? Yes I know American OEM's spend tons of money building engines no longer used in any production car just for the sake of using them in Sprint Cup because they don't think Spec Racing is expensive.

I know some aftermarket companies and a Baby Boomer's love (Rose Colored Glasses) for Muscle Cars of yore in fact do make large displacement V8 blocks either for NHRA Pro Stock or outdated hardware like Ford's FE engine.

It seems to me Bob at times you wish ALMS disconnected itself from the French, did its own thing, kind of like Grand Am.

I for one like the fact it has a connection to Le Mans, the sole reason sportscar racing exist and gets reborn every so often because of that iconic event. If we had just Grand Am, it would never move forward... How long has Grand Am been around? Yeah its close racing, but we all know the trouble with that series and its hypocrisy laden supporters.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="dj4monie"]

I know some aftermarket companies and a Baby Boomer's love (Rose Colored Glasses) for Muscle Cars of yore in fact do make large displacement V8 blocks either for NHRA Pro Stock or outdated hardware like Ford's FE engine.-- Tht Ford factory has released, for the first time in forty years, new performance part for the 385 big block, in both boss and semi-wedge form just this year.
All three U.S. companies are releasing new factory parts for thier big block now.
This does not take into account the huge after-market presence.
Drag racing, even with the asinine 1,000 ft move, is still thriving.
The same fans used to flock to road racing; if you want those fans then run the motive power they care about.

It seems to me Bob at times you wish ALMS disconnected itself from the French, did its own thing, kind of like Grand Am.-- By god he has seen the light!
If Panoz had not tied his face, and the IMSA, to the French's buttocks, GARRA would be long time gone and the IMSA not a different version of the contrived competition joke.
What made the original IMSA as good as it was. was they were willing to open, not make more restrictive rules, the rules if too many were crippled by the current rules. When they started cutting of their noses to spite their faces with more and more limiting rules, driving people out who would not waste time if what they did could be banned or made impotent any momnet, they died.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No major series in the U.S. has EVER SAID, without exception, "Bring what you want, we don't care" so that point is vacuous but to the rest;

Your first point: Paranoia based on --nothing,-- but fear, for the sake of fear.

Your second point: Already exists and always has and always will without regard to the rules.
This is why close races used to be so well remembered. They were exceptions based on different teams efforts and desire to win, not a contrived farce.

---The exception, to the latter, being, before IMSA, ACO-inspired restrictor mania, many tracks had fields of forty some cars,(in one to two classes) with the big one at Daytona reaching the sixties.
Many cars creates much interest, WITHOUT regard to how many of those have a chance to win the race.( these are cars that made the race, not counting entries that did not make it.)

Even before the current IMSA, as the old one made the rules more and more restrictive, the size of fields shrank.
The current IMSA seems to be arrogant or asininely ignorant to that fact, as they have followed the same path that destroyed the original IMSA.

I am not paranoid. I just know with the way the lawyers and insurance companies work and I know a modern Can AM with few if any rules would fly. Sorry...technology would make cars do some amazing things, but god knows what would happen if something broke or the driver lost it.

As for IMSA losing car counts as the rules increased, I guess the fact that all the competition for racing teams among new series popping up had nothing to do with it? I guess the most restrictive series should have no one yet both Grand AM and NASCAR are doing quite well relatively.

IMSA in its first form died because it was a dead end for the manufacturers since its rules didn't match LeMans, which is the only sportscar race that most manufacturers really care to put money out to win.

I am not a engineer, but I have followed racing long enough to know no one will pay to see six cars in a class, and only 20 cars on the track. That is why ALMS is in danger, but I also know this happens not because the rules restricting the cars are too much, but through competition for racing entrepreneurs. Sportscar racing is a bad investment for the amount of money ploughed in vs the purses. ALMS isn't going to change this ratio by loosening up the rules that will make the cars ineligible for ACO rules now is it?
Sportscar racing is hurting due to the economy and manufacturers are not seeing a return worth the expenditure.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The Can-Am had a limit of over two-liters mimimum from the get-go, there were other rules obviously but it was NEVER as open as people want to think.
That hype made good press though.
More rules were added also as the years went by.
Good or bad, the vacuum cleaner Chaparral should never have been allowed.

Reynolds created the all-alloy engine blocks (no steel liner.) They and Chevrolet worked together on the 390 alloy, which was also used in the Porsche V-8 a few years later. (Ford worked with Alcoa)
The Tonawanda plant did the casting.

Should have never been allowed? Restrictive rules Bob? I thought too many restrictions killed race series.

We have agreed there should be a line, just you and I just don't agree where it should be.

[Mark in Oshawa]

AS for feeling GARRA would go away if IMSA loosened up the rules and not followed ACO, GARRA will be around as long as NASCAR wants to run it. THey have the dough to BURY IMSA Bob......crappy formula or not....

[SportscarBruce]

Just like the IMSA they are spec. equalized because otherwise it would not be fair.(It used to be racing improved the product, but hell, it is easier to simply dummy all down to a common denominator)
I am waiting for them to take the next step in fairness like they are starting to do in grade school ballgames; not keep score so no one is hurt.

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a major difference is Grand-Am sets the power curve on a given engine package through a series of in-house testing and tuning, then releases the product to teams, while ALMS makes competitive adjustments according to green flag on-track results accumulated over time.

[SportscarBruce]

AS for feeling GARRA would go away if IMSA loosened up the rules and not followed ACO, GARRA will be around as long as NASCAR wants to run it. THey have the dough to BURY IMSA Bob......crappy formula or not....

bingo

[harvick#1]

Scott Sharp forming new GT2 team, Ferrari F430

http://www.americanlemans.com/index_news.php?n=14004

[Bob Riebe]

AS for feeling GARRA would go away if IMSA loosened up the rules and not followed ACO, GARRA will be around as long as NASCAR wants to run it. THey have the dough to BURY IMSA Bob......crappy formula or not....
No they do not, NASCAR lives and dies by sponsorship, and Detroit being willing to stay.
They can buy nothing without a sponsors approval or the sponsor can say good-bye and lose nothing while NASCAR loses everything.

Gee, I remember when similar things were said about GM....

[Bob Riebe]

Correct me if I'm wrong here, but a major difference is Grand-Am sets the power curve on a given engine package through a series of in-house testing and tuning, then releases the product to teams, while ALMS makes competitive adjustments according to green flag on-track results accumulated over time.
Wrong.
GARRA adjusts its specs. as it feels just as the ACO does.
The IMSA did not turn into a pathetic parade several years ago, only because it had enough cajones then to ignore the ACO spec. and create its own so the lessor class could defeat the primary class.

As I said clinging to the ACO, is the IMSA's worst enemy.
Also, in the original IMSA, IMSA cars DID RUN at LeMans. It was at the request of European manufacturers that a "special" class in the IMSA was created so certain euro cars could run in IMSA races if they so chose to.

LeMans returned the favour.

Flying car-- paranoia strikes deep, into your life it will creep....

[SportscarBruce]

http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/enginesubmissionform.pdf

Far as I'm aware ALMS doesn't have a form similiar to this...

[Bob Riebe]

http://admin.grand-am.com/assets/enginesubmissionform.pdf

Far as I'm aware ALMS doesn't have a form similiar to this...
NO they just slap weight and restrictor size till you go as slow, or fast, diesels, as they want you to go.(I am still happy the IMSA was not afraid to expose the contrived gimmick for the sake of stopping a boring parade.
They let the second rank p2 cars, take it to the suddenly not so premiere class diesels.
Just think how entertaining and informative it would be if they got rid of the contrived spec. performance and simply made basic weight to displacement rules as they used to.
No, they perfer forced mediocrity)

Yet, some GT1 boys found out if you go too fast, and you are not the chosen few, they slap more restrictions on you. Ask the Saleen boys.

Either way they are both running contrived rules hoping the fans are too stupid to know they are not watching anything that proves who builds the better car.

[dj4monie]

This will be my last post in this thread on Bob's rants.

Allowing LMP1's to compete with LMP2's is something that already happen and produced some excellent racing. Audi from the good Doctor's position Audi wasn't in the series to loose to the lesser LMP2 cars and felt it was a dirty trick to allow Acura and Porsche to skirt the rules a bit and build cars for a class intended for Gentlemen drivers.

2007 and 2008 have been some of the best racing in ALMS history at the sharp end. You didn't know who was going to win and Audi had to earn every victory. By 2008 they had turned a car designed mainly to run at Le Mans into a car capable of winning every where.

If things had remained the same, only with Acura moving up to LMP1, but Porsche and Penske re-signed to running LMP2 with updated Spyders, this year would be have been classic just like the years previous.

IMSA should be applauded to be willing to adjust the rules enough not to totally make them ineligible for ACO races like Le Mans, but allow enough flexibility to return back to ACO spec when needed.

What the ACO was protecting themselves from was a skyrocketing cost of racing in his home series mostly. Knowing what the Porsche Spyder had done the LMP cars at Laguna Seca at the end of the 2007 season, they knew if somebody went to Porsche with a large checkbook, they could dominate the LMS, especially at circuits where power is not nearly as important as high speed cornering.

To be honest, Porsche like they usually do, looked at the rules and said as long as the Diesel engined cars have a straight line advantage they would not spend the cubic dollars needed to close the gaps to them enough they you could keep them at bay when a corner came up.

Sportscar Racing in America doesn't have the star power it needs to close ground on NASCAR. But it can close ground on IRL and has. I think the ALMS is moving in positive direction.

[SportscarBruce]

Hey, nice seeing ya DJ! :wave:

If I may add to your Porsche analysis;

As Porsche began shifting its export target from the US market to the Near and Far East and Audi withdrawing from the field of battle they took the lure of Grand Am's cheaper cost point + big honkin' engine displacement for 2009. I'll hazard a guess the Porsche competitive specification adjustment along with the move to Grand-Am was spearheaded by Roger Penske. The allure of knocking Chip Ganassi off the DP mountain must have been a pretty enticing prospect for RP.

Alas I don't believe the Porsche DP program had a fraction of the prestigue factor gained through ALMS P2 competition, so if this was money well spent or not remains debatable. I believe they should have not only stayed in ALMS/ACO competition but stepped up to P1 and twisted ACO's arm in pursuit of favorable allowances towards hybrid technology.

On another note, following this year's PLM USA Today's Motorsport section didn't have a word about the race under that category. All they bothered printing was a two or three sentence AP summary hidden away in the back section of the paper.

pfft

[dj4monie]

De Ferran -

Signs Sato from F1 for his new IRL team and runs a two car effort with Simon has his second driver. They will also do double duty in the long distance races in ALMS. I would also expect to see another driver with Honda and ALMS connections replacing Pagenaud as lead ALMS driver.

What's not known is will it be a LMP1 car or LMP2 car?

Summary: 1 car in ALMS/LMP1 and 2 cars in IRL

Fernandez Racing -

Rumor has it the cars have been sold. Not sure if that's true, they are still looking for sponsorship and being back to run for overall victories next season might help them and get an 11th hour reprieve.

Summary: Shop Closed, Equipment Sold until further notice Oct. 30

Intersport - To be honest, not worth mentioning. Only Papa Field has enough raw speed to compete at the sharp end. Will they take on another paid driver? Thinks they might field some IMSA Lite cars for paid drivers next year (taking a page out of Primetime's book). The competition for the single podium positions next year has the little team that can't struggling for Top 5 finishes let alone podiums.

Summary: Updated B06, maybe (1) LMPC car, maybe (2) IMSA Lite Cars

Highcroft/Patron: The little team that was given a shot and ran with it, MIGHT field a IRL entry as well. But I think this will be Scott Sharp maybe with a limited schedule including the 500. So Highcroft will be expanding afterall. I also think the "Extreme Motorsport" GT2 will be stabled out of Highcroft as well. Brown has been announced as one of the drivers. Being that Ed is CEO of the Spirit's company, I don't expect him to be any faster than Neiman, maybe even slower. If they want to compete for victories in GT2, I expect two factory pilots. I'm not sure, but I think we'll see Gimmi Bruni here full time, not sure who he'll partner with Vilander has been in the ALMS before, if you remember his hard crash in the 2nd Risi car at Lime Rock back in 2007.

Summary: LMP1 (1), IRL (1) Limited Schedule, GT2 (via Extreme Motorsports)

Drayson Racing - As long as the his Lordship is behind the wheel for any lengthy amount of time, this team will not challenge for wins or the overall championship. But IF (and that's a big IF) he pairs Cocker with Rob Bell for the sprint races they might have an outside chance for victory later in the season. With no LMP experience around most of the tracks, they will struggle for pace I think. But by Petit I expect them to challenge for Podiums.

Summary: New for 2010 (3 races under belt by Sebring)

Dyson Racing - Largely no changes here, IMSA will adjust the rules for them to have a bit more straight line speed so they can compete with Intersport and Field in terms of who tops the trap speeds. They just need to be within a mph or two, they'll be better under braking and in corners (less weight, better tires, better drivers, even Chris Dyson), I expect at least ONE overall victory from them next season, don't be surprised if its Guy Smith...

I'm only focusing on those that will challenge for overall victories and its totally possible for Intersports to find themselves in victory lane though that's not likely.

Thoughts on GT2 next post

[dj4monie]

Hey, nice seeing ya DJ! :wave:

If I may add to your Porsche analysis;

As Porsche began shifting its export target from the US market to the Near and Far East and Audi withdrawing from the field of battle they took the lure of Grand Am's cheaper cost point + big honkin' engine displacement for 2009. I'll hazard a guess the Porsche competitive specification adjustment along with the move to Grand-Am was spearheaded by Roger Penske. The allure of knocking Chip Ganassi off the DP mountain must have been a pretty enticing prospect for RP.

Alas I don't believe the Porsche DP program had a fraction of the prestigue factor gained through ALMS P2 competition, so if this was money well spent or not remains debatable. I believe they should have not only stayed in ALMS/ACO competition but stepped up to P1 and twisted ACO's arm in pursuit of favorable allowances towards hybrid technology.

On another note, following this year's PLM USA Today's Motorsport section didn't have a word about the race under that category. All they bothered printing was a two or three sentence AP summary hidden away in the back section of the paper.

pfft

Sportscar Racing doesn't have the cashe' like Cup does especially in this made-up for TV playoff system called the Chase For the Cup. It will get barely a mention as they don't have a full time reporter following the series.

Thankfully Print Media is not nearly as important as it once was and the ALMS can do just fine with most of its coverage and rumor gathering online, it sure hasn't hurt ticket sales...

RP going to DP was so Porsche could decide if it wanted to build an LMP1 car (this was before the attempted takeover for VW, FAIL!) . Rumor has there is a realignment as it were in the works -

So the rumor goes...

Audi after 2010 will no longer field an LMP cars. They will instead focus on GT3 with the R8GT3 and on DTM with the A4. But the same "cast of characters" will run Porsche's new LMP1 car likely gas powered and hybrid. Penske might be tapped to run Porsche's in ALMS. Joest will run the LMS/European teams and Le Mans, while Penske will run the ALMS and MIGHT finally run Tim Centric run team at Le Mans as well. Porsche will continue to sell GT2 and GT3 variants of its 911 as demand warrants (especially in GT3).

By the way I thought you dropped off the face of the earth? Still using an ATI card to capture stuff? I have a full blown Media Center PC with 24" screen :)

[dj4monie]

Here goes -

Risi - The end of 2009 was a bitter pill to swallow. AF Corse won first time out with evolution changes (Aero, GT1 rear tires, Larger Restrictor) at Paul Ricard. Risi used same "nose" treatment at Petit and Laguna finale. The 2009 chassis will get the updates. Not sure if the Texas Oil man will return for his 2-3 races.

Summary: No Driver Changes, Evolutionary Changes to the F430 ahead of the all new for 2011 458

Extreme Motorsports - Why does every American based racing team have "Motorsports" in its title? Anyway, announcing their intentions at Laguna took some observers by surprise. Scott will just own the car, not drive it.

Ed Brown (former Seagram Exc, current CEO of Patron) recently started racing. However Gimmi Bruni he is not and unless they stop having visions of grandeur this is money down the drain. I do expect them to pair him with one of Ferrari's lead drivers. Speaking of Bruni, I think he's accomplish all he can in Europe in a GT2 car (GT Open Champion, Italian GT Champion, 2 time FIA GT2 Champion, 2 time LMS Champion). So unless he's got a inside line on a MC12 drive next season, I can't see him continuing. Of course people that done stranger things, but seeing that most of the other "Ferrari" drivers that were at Sebring in 2008 (Simonsen, Bell, Muller, Farnbacher) or have Ferrari driving experience (A. Davidson) will likely not be available to them. That leaves current Grand Am Driver Matteo Bobbi, the aforementioned Bruni and his teammate Toni Vi(Zoo)lander.

Summary: Look for Matias Russo and Bruni to join Ed Brown at Sebring, brand new F430 GTC should be available around Feb 2010 for its shake down at Florano, won't challenge for victories without some "neat" pit strategy

Rahal-Letterman BMW - As far as I can tell nobody has been locked in for 2010 on the driver front. Drik Muller is a BMW lifer though, I expect him to be locked in. The "All American" car is of no threat to be changed either, afterall they got the only class win for BMW last year. So that leaves Tommy Millner's seat vulnerable. Being that he's not locked up already should fuel speculation that Milner might lose his seat to a 3 time WTCC Champion or another "Muller" with strong ties to BMW. If BMW drops its factory supported WTCC effort like some rumors have said, I do expect Milner to be the "odd" man out.

Summary: Further "massaging" of the M3GT2, Milner retained for "Endurance Races", Priaulx or the "other" Muller for the Sprint Races. Inside Line: Head of BMW NA Effort has close ties to Priaulx.

GM Corvette Racing - No Changes

Flying Lizard Racing - No Changes (defacto Porsche NA factory squad)

Farnbarcher - With Porsche dropping its support of Grand Am next season, I expect Dirk Werner to partner full-time with Henzler, not sure who will partner with them for longer races, might field GTC Porsches for paid drivers

Summary: More stable driver lineup will allow them to challenge for victories and overall championship, could possibly add 2nd car that was announced at the end of 2008 originally.

Vici Racing - Not sure if the T-Moblie Deal really kicks in next season or was limited to start with. Puzzling to sign a major sponsor like T-Mobile to only show up 3 times in a 10 race season... If they can put a solid driver line up together and get a 2010 car, they should challenge for Podiums.

Summary: Expect Westbrook for a full season next year. My guess is kid Stuck will partner and continue to "grow" into GT racing. Expect Porsche Factory driver for endurance races.

This is where I expect most of the race victories and championship contenders to come.

Now....

The best of the rest -

RSR (Formerly Rocket Sports) - Jag in the hands of the "Goose" barely made it a complete stint in first real race outing. Was some 10 or so seconds off the ultimate pace in GT2. I expect that to be cut in half by Winter Testing at Sebring. Won't challenge for podiums until maybe year 2. Why? because this is not a Top Down effort from Tata Motors. I guess Jag of NA threw in a few coins, sent them a few body on white cars and linked them with Apex, but that's about it. Unless some big time sponsor dollars comes along; GT racing is very much different from tube frame Trans Am racing.

Summary: Scott Pruett to drive between Grand Am gig or drop DP's altogether?

Robinson Racing - Rumor has it Ford is interested in giving them "technical" assistance. This would mean (to me anyway) use of 7 post, shock dynos, simulation software (nailing setup before events), engines from Roush/Yates, CFD and Wind Tunnel use. But what this team really needs beyond all that which will make the car faster and put them on terms with the elite teams, is a 2nd car with two professional drivers in it. This is something Seth does over at Flying Lizard. He lets the pros challenge for wins and championships, he drives mid pack ready to ponce if attrition is higher than normal. I hope the Robinson's understand that its time to take the program to the next level and take "winning" seriously and that it doesn't have to get in the way of having fun, which they are doing with David Murry.

Summary: Pair David Murry with an equally competent driver and podium finishes shouldn't be out of the question, especially if Ford puts some of their vast technical muscle beyond it.

Falken Tires - Spent most of the year testing but as Corvette Racing learned a long time ago, testing only is for suckers. Falken has been near the leading edge on pace but far enough off it not to be a factor in any event outcomes. Unless they make another technological leap forward in tire development (Ask Dunlop how hard it is to trump the French tires), even with a 2010 GT3-RSR.

Summary: Weakness seams to be the four round things. If that Rubik's Cube can be solved (not likely this season) they'll challenge for podiums with a typically reliable Porsche. Otherwise, they'll be struggling mid pack (see Vici + New Porsche + Kumho Tires = FAIL)

I don't foresee any other additions, though having said that, Scott Sharp came out of left field. We'll just have to see how seriously they will take GT2 because it really takes two professional drivers to get the job done, its become that serious in this class that even VanOverbek, a decent peddler has been demoted to the penalty box (Team Owner's Car).

What was once WWIII, its straight gone Nuclear in this class. This is the roughest, toughest, meanest, GT2 Championship in the world, you only have to look at what happen at the Laguna season finale on the last lap. You'll be sure while some believe a dangerous prescient was set at Sebring in 2007, I think everybody understands that Melo and Bergermister are NOT the people you wanna try to get physical with at the checkered flag...

Frankly the beating and banging doesn't happen often enough to be a problem. Who said rubbin isn't racing in Sportscars too?

[SportscarBruce]

Sportscar Racing doesn't have the cashe' like Cup does especially in this made-up for TV playoff system called the Chase For the Cup. It will get barely a mention as they don't have a full time reporter following the series.

Gary Graves is about as knowledgeable and prolific a racing reporter as you'll find today, his contributions during the start of the racing season span the gambit from Cup to ALMS to F1 and IndyCar. The annual "Speed Weekend" issue is first-rate year after year. However as this year's sponsorship crunch began to sideline NASCAR regulars and TV rating soured a focus towards single category coverage became the norm. Same pattern took place at Speed Channel and across NewsCorp's media empire, ditto for Disney. I don't believe any of this is an accident. Welcome to the era of PR news.



Thankfully Print Media is not nearly as important as it once was and the ALMS can do just fine with most of its coverage and rumor gathering online, it sure hasn't hurt ticket sales...

Print doesn't have the market share of eyeballs it enjoyed during the pre-internet days, but it's still damm important when it comes to establishing pecking orders through headlines and photo shots. Also note Sprint is a daily advertiser in USAToday, NASCAR Communication honcho Jim Hunter's right hand man Mike McCarthy went straight from the front office to a desk at USA Today Sports. It's an important platform in their eyes.


RP going to DP was so Porsche could decide if it wanted to build an LMP1 car (this was before the attempted takeover for VW, FAIL!) . Rumor has there is a realignment as it were in the works -

I heard that rationale before but I didn't believe it for a minute. Porsche cheaped out instead of climbing the Le Mans mountain for one simple reason; In days past it was Porsche v Ferrari, Porsche today is fighting for Range Rover's customer base. Grandsons sure have a knack for disfiguring the family brand...


So the rumor goes...

Audi after 2010 will no longer field an LMP cars. They will instead focus on GT3 with the R8GT3 and on DTM with the A4. But the same "cast of characters" will run Porsche's new LMP1 car likely gas powered and hybrid. Penske might be tapped to run Porsche's in ALMS. Joest will run the LMS/European teams and Le Mans, while Penske will run the ALMS and MIGHT finally run Tim Centric run team at Le Mans as well. Porsche will continue to sell GT2 and GT3 variants of its 911 as demand warrants (especially in GT3).

By the way I thought you dropped off the face of the earth? Still using an ATI card to capture stuff? I have a full blown Media Center PC with 24" screen :)

Since I've recently emerged from under my rock do you have any links to share concerning Porsche's future plans in ACO sports car competition?

Once I get this rootkit crap cleaned out of my new multiprocesser machine I'll start posting some better quality stuff :D

[Bob Riebe]

This will be my last post in this thread on Bob's rants.

Allowing LMP1's to compete with LMP2's is something that already happen and produced some excellent racing. Audi from the good Doctor's position Audi wasn't in the series to loose to the lesser LMP2 cars and felt it was a dirty trick to allow Acura and Porsche to skirt the rules a bit and build cars for a class intended for Gentlemen drivers.

2007 and 2008 have been some of the best racing in ALMS history at the sharp end. You didn't know who was going to win and Audi had to earn every victory. By 2008 they had turned a car designed mainly to run at Le Mans into a car capable of winning every where.

If things had remained the same, only with Acura moving up to LMP1, but Porsche and Penske re-signed to running LMP2 with updated Spyders, this year would be have been classic just like the years previous.

IMSA should be applauded to be willing to adjust the rules enough not to totally make them ineligible for ACO races like Le Mans, but allow enough flexibility to return back to ACO spec when needed.

What the ACO was protecting themselves from was a skyrocketing cost of racing in his home series mostly. Knowing what the Porsche Spyder had done the LMP cars at Laguna Seca at the end of the 2007 season, they knew if somebody went to Porsche with a large checkbook, they could dominate the LMS, especially at circuits where power is not nearly as important as high speed cornering.

To be honest, Porsche like they usually do, looked at the rules and said as long as the Diesel engined cars have a straight line advantage they would not spend the cubic dollars needed to close the gaps to them enough they you could keep them at bay when a corner came up.

Sportscar Racing in America doesn't have the star power it needs to close ground on NASCAR. But it can close ground on IRL and has. I think the ALMS is moving in positive direction.
Hmm, if I am ranting then yours is a sputtering defense of the undefendable?http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/hmph.gif

If it weren't for the Indianapolis 500, the IRL would be toast.
If the rules changes in the IRL are what has been said on other forums, the IMSA, if it survives, should have no trouble to be more popular than all but Indy.http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon11.gif

[Mark in Oshawa]

Still haven't figured out what the ACO did to Bob in a previous life..lol..or this one.

[Bob Riebe]

Still haven't figured out what the ACO did to Bob in a previous life..lol..or this one.
They took an incredibly exciting, educational sport (main reason I studied auto mech.), and turned into a pointless contrived political farce. They are the http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/devil.gif

[dj4monie]

Bob may not agree with what the ACO has historical done, however they connected Sportscar Racing to the ONE Crown Jewel it has and the reason most OEM's start programs.

Actually the diesel rules were put in to encourage diesel powered cars, it worked, just not for the privater...

I will agree with you on those grounds.

INDY is a shell of itself in terms of importance. Let me put it this way, even Sato will likely not get a front line F1 ride, instead of announcing his intentions of running in the IRL, he's holding out hope that he'll get a F1 even it means he'll never be in the running for a podium. Where he's been linked to both Andretti and De Ferran and surely would be need the front at Indy or any IRL event, he rather focus on F1...

IRL has lost its luster period. Look at how crowded DTM got over the years with F3 drivers and only Benz has an F1 team!

[Mark in Oshawa]

They took an incredibly exciting, educational sport (main reason I studied auto mech.), and turned into a pointless contrived political farce. They are the http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/devil.gif


They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars. Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. The fact is if they ran very little rules, the cars would reach speeds that may reach a point where insurance for the race wouldn't be in the offing. The same reason the restrictor plates are in NASCAR at Dega and Daytona, and the same reason F1 motors keep getting shrunk.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing and want lots of variety and the sad fact those days are gone forever, and I don't care what governing body you find. Sportscar racing is not like it was in the 80's or 70's just like the Indy Cars aren't, the NASCAR's aren't and the F1 cars are different. The box isn't expanding no more. We will never see faster cars, we will just see more clever solutions to make more restrictive cars go faster back up to what we see now. There is lots of room for techincal growth. Fuel mileage restrictions cause r and d to be done with Diesels and gas motors to get better mileage. There is rules out there to encourage hybrid research and I bet there is a clause or two for KERS development.

There is lots of room for innovative ideas and new technologies. Just don't look to see anyone hauling down Mulsanne at 300mph.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars . Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. (Show me the rules that CONTROLLED the cars.)

You are grabbing at straws; they changed restrictions/boundaries on displacement in SOME classes, in some series.

In the seventies the IMSA & SCCA GT rules RELAXED the displacement restrictions, till in the end, near ANY Detroit engine that was in the parts book was legal. That is why some Corvettes were using the all-alloy ex-Can-Am engines. Which did no good as the Trannies were way too weak for the power produced.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing . You like to keep repeating that flatulance, show me where I ever said that.
It just bugs you that I will not bow down and accept this contrived BS, as more than amateur SCCA National type spec. racing. Which is exactly what it is.
They are serving butt-fudge and you are going mmm-mmm-mmm, because you think it is chocolate fudge.

[Tom206wrc]

According to L'Equipe of today, both american teams Highcroft and de Ferran would be among the candidates list to run the 4th Peugeot 908 at the 24h of Le Mans :eek:

Even more interesting, if one of these teams would be chosen by Peugeot, they would run full 2010 ALMS with the diesel coupé :D

Within two weeks we could know Peugeot's definitive choice, and I personally hope for DE FERRAN :bounce:

[Mark in Oshawa]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa":3rx438c5]They are evil because the made rules that restrict speed, power and control the race cars . Well they did it when they outlawed the 7 liter Ford GT's in the late 60's. They did it again in the 70's and they have always tinkered with the rules. (Show me the rules that CONTROLLED the cars.)

You are grabbing at straws; they changed restrictions/boundaries on displacement in SOME classes, in some series.

In the seventies the IMSA & SCCA GT rules RELAXED the displacement restrictions, till in the end, near ANY Detroit engine that was in the parts book was legal. That is why some Corvettes were using the all-alloy ex-Can-Am engines. Which did no good as the Trannies were way too weak for the power produced.

The fact is Bob you want no real rules in your racing . You like to keep repeating that flatulance, show me where I ever said that.
It just bugs you that I will not bow down and accept this contrived BS, as more than amateur SCCA National type spec. racing. Which is exactly what it is.
They are serving butt-fudge and you are going mmm-mmm-mmm, because you think it is chocolate fudge.[/quote:3rx438c5]

Show me where I have a rule book from the 60's. The point I am making is every series has rules, and restricts car dimensions, layouts, engine sizes etc. You keep going back to the 70's. Those cars were dangerous so it is obvious the rules of today have some value.

I am with you I would like to see more open specs for engines, layouts and the like. That said, every series has rules, they all tinker with them for various reasons, and to say the ACO is any worse or better than SCCA Pro Racing, IMSA, NASCAR, IRL or the FIA for their series is not right. We don't live in an era where it is acceptable to have cars that don't protect the driver. Cars from the 70's were better than the 60's but still pretty woeful. We cannot go back there on the technical side either. With wind tunnels, CAD design, modern engine technology, we have to have that box a lot tighter....because they would be screaming along at stupid speeds if we didn't...

[dj4monie]

[quote="Bob Riebe":36p99b4x]

Show me where I have a rule book from the 60's. The point I am making is every series has rules, and restricts car dimensions, layouts, engine sizes etc. You keep going back to the 70's. Those cars were dangerous so it is obvious the rules of today have some value.

I am with you I would like to see more open specs for engines, layouts and the like. That said, every series has rules, they all tinker with them for various reasons, and to say the ACO is any worse or better than SCCA Pro Racing, IMSA, NASCAR, IRL or the FIA for their series is not right. We don't live in an era where it is acceptable to have cars that don't protect the driver. Cars from the 70's were better than the 60's but still pretty woeful. We cannot go back there on the technical side either. With wind tunnels, CAD design, modern engine technology, we have to have that box a lot tighter....because they would be screaming along at stupid speeds if we didn't...[/quote:36p99b4x]

The cars are better the death toll keeps score and aside from a few notable it was really blunt force that ended the lives of many drivers, unlike the olden days when pure speed and lack of protection usually killed drivers.

After all both Clark and Donahue died because of tire failure, something you rarely see with the introduction radial tires. The downside of radial tires is the stiffer side walls which allow much higher cornering speeds when combined with the downforce generated by modern aero dynamics = wide open throttle running on ovals see Tony Renna and a few other Indy Car drivers.

They wouldn't keep asking Herman Tilke to design stop and start circuits if they felt the cars were too slow for tracks designed in the 50's and 60's.

Look at Monza, its still brutally fast despite the chicanes and the Parabolica is a "Man's corner". So is the "Kink" at Road America, etc, etc

If you left designers to their own devices where F1 designer largely blame the cars lack of success on the fleshy creature behind the wheel and not their own design flaws with no regulation, the races would drive themselves by remote, it would be the only save way to handle the seriously high corning g's that would be generated by a modern 1000hp, ground-effect, active aero-dynamic car.

Noticed I mentioned those technologies -

Active Aero was banned by F1 and Sports Car Racing in the 90's

Active Suspension was banned by F1 and Sports Car Racing in the 90's

Ground Effect eliminated from open wheel and sports cars by the 2007 with the end of the CART series.

To counter that, engineers work3e more and more with wind tunnels and CFD. They generate as much downforce over and around the car as they did in the days of ground effects without the negative accept of introducing drag into the equation.

Bob hasn't been paying attention but they are going through the Porsche Curves faster now than during the Group C era...

[dj4monie]

According to L'Equipe of today, both american teams Highcroft and de Ferran would be among the candidates list to run the 4th Peugeot 908 at the 24h of Le Mans :eek:

Even more interesting, if one of these teams would be chosen by Peugeot, they would run full 2010 ALMS with the diesel coupé :D

Within two weeks we could know Peugeot's definitive choice, and I personally hope for DE FERRAN :bounce:

I find this bit of news terribly interesting. De Ferrans long range goal is to run Le Mans. Highcroft's short term goal is to be at Le Mans. As ALMS Champions, they get an automatic invite.

This means either investing with Writh for the low drag configuration needed to be competitive at La Sarthe.

or as you say get in contact with Peugeot and ask if you can "borrow" one of their cars.

We shall see what results come of this.

[Jag_Warrior]

I find this bit of news terribly interesting. De Ferrans long range goal is to run Le Mans. Highcroft's short term goal is to be at Le Mans. As ALMS Champions, they get an automatic invite.

This means either investing with Writh for the low drag configuration needed to be competitive at La Sarthe.

or as you say get in contact with Peugeot and ask if you can "borrow" one of their cars.

We shall see what results come of this.

I never thought about this before. But even if they switched to another manufacturer, it's the team that gets the invitation. So could a champion P1 team use its invitation to race say, a GT car for Le Mans or vice versa?

[harvick#1]

while it will be good, it could also be bad, because if either team got a Peugeot, they are gonna win everyrace (exc. Sebring and Petit) because that car will destroy the entire field as long as Audi doesn't run a full season in ALMS which is highly unlikely.

Pescarolo is still in the bid, but I believe they still owe Peugeot some cash from the Le Mans crash this year

[harvick#1]

I never thought about this before. But even if they switched to another manufacturer, it's the team that gets the invitation. So could a champion P1 team use its invitation to race say, a GT car for Le Mans or vice versa?

I believe they lose the auto invite, but will normally be one of the 55 selected because of the previous success they have had in a series. I believe Vitaphone Racing was going to do that as they couldn't race a MC12 in GT1 so they were trying to get a Porsche RS Spyder, but the deal didn't happen

[dj4monie]

Well its been confirmed Highcroft will return with Acura, with Honda in a reduced capacity (leased engines) and it will be the Parton Highcroft Acura team and there is a evolution of the Acura from Writh coming. I would assume they have a low drag setup as well, with no wind tunnel needed, they'll be able to mock up and test all in virtual related. The only cost is the design time and making of the parts.

We'll see what happens as time moves on...

[Tom206wrc]

This week's AutoHebdo mag takes the bet that Sébastien Loeb will be at the 12H of Sebring in march with Peugeot-Sport just after the mexican WRC round :bounce:

[anthonyvop]

Well its been confirmed Highcroft will return with Acura, with Honda in a reduced capacity (leased engines) and it will be the Parton Highcroft Acura team and there is a evolution of the Acura from Writh coming. I would assume they have a low drag setup as well, with no wind tunnel needed, they'll be able to mock up and test all in virtual related. The only cost is the design time and making of the parts.

We'll see what happens as time moves on...

Highcroft is returning to run a the LMP2 Acura. I hear some European team is picking up the Acura LMP1 Chassis