3 River Atlantics

[Hoop-98]

P1:

http://i27.tinypic.com/ojgowj.jpg

rh

[NickFalzone]

10 cars, really?

[Hoop-98]

10 cars, really?

Maybe 10 and 1/2

http://i29.tinypic.com/2d9pp2f.jpg

rh

[PA Rick]

Is there any way to increase the car count by allowing FA and FC chassis or would it be a train wreck?

[grungex]

You could add some Indy Lights cars to fill out the back of the field...

[Hoop-98]

You could add some Indy Lights cars to fill out the back of the field...

maybe-maybe not at the rear, hard to believe the difference a year makes...

http://i30.tinypic.com/311tdzn.jpg

http://i30.tinypic.com/m4hhv.jpg



rh

[Hoop-98]

Practice 3. As far as the car count, I think it is the canada trip that left the C2's at home.

http://i26.tinypic.com/waohmo.jpg

rh

[Chamoo]

You know, the Atlantics and Indy Lights could run together, they are very close on most tracks. Some tracks run better for the FIL's and some better for ATL's. Over the course of the season, I would think it would all work out pretty closely.

Either that, or aren't the FIL cars getting a tad long in the tooth anyways? Why not just mandate the old Atlantics chassis as the new FIL chassis and merge the two series? The Atlantic Lights? There is a pretty brand new chassis out there (as far as development series are concerned) and it is a good one. My only concern is ovals as they would need to test before anything gets done (and yes, they have safety tested the Swift's for ovals).

[Hoop-98]

On a Super Speedway the Lights are 20 MPH faster...I think you need something between the P/W of an Atlantic and an Indy...

jm2c
rh

[Hoop-98]

Just for s & g, the 2000 DIL LBGP Qualifying 1

http://i25.tinypic.com/nfigro.jpg


rh

[Chamoo]

On a Super Speedway the Lights are 20 MPH faster...I think you need something between the P/W of an Atlantic and an Indy...

jm2c
rh

How much HP would Cosworth/Mazda have to add to get the speeds up to par on Super Speedways, or even bypass the FIL cars? I've always been under the impression that the FIL cars need more speed on ovals to match up to the ICS cars.

[Hoop-98]

How much HP would Cosworth/Mazda have to add to get the speeds up to par on Super Speedways, or even bypass the FIL cars? I've always been under the impression that the FIL cars need more speed on ovals to match up to the ICS cars.

I would guess over 100 BHP. And there are ovals and Super Speedways. Ona 1 mile oval the Atlantics will be similar in speed to a Light, at Texas 20 MPH off.

In 2000 the lights were 4 seconds faster than Atlantic's at LB, same speed at Milwaukee.

Impressions are easy to get wrong, that's why i have timing and scoring for most races back to 79 on my laptop (CART/Champcar, not Indycar..

rh

[Hoop-98]

Qualfying 1, not sure about 2 17 cars?

http://i28.tinypic.com/24qn66t.jpg

rh

[Mark in Oshawa]

Sad...10 cars plus Eric Jensen coming out of some sort of retirement to give them an 11. Thank good for the organizers that the NASCAR Canadian Tire Series is there. They put on a good show at 3 creeks (as my buddies used to call it).

[Easy Drifter]

A sad state of affairs when Three Cricks used to be a real Atlantic showcase in the 70's. The regulars were spectacular enough considering a good many them ended up in F1 or Indy, including Gilles, Keke Rosberg and Bobby Rahal. Then the organizers would bring in about 4 European 'ringers', mostly F1 drivers.
Atlantics then were the best racing series in NA.
Eric Jensen's dad Bruce was a top Atlantic driver who did it for fun with no aspirations of being a full time pro. There were days when he was as fast as anyone.

[Hoop-98]

here is the 76 Qualies...Bruce is in there.

http://i32.tinypic.com/2mw9pv9.jpg

rh

[Easy Drifter]

Thanks Hoop.
By that time in 76 the B29 Chevron was tired. Most of his experienced crew had left for one reason or another and BJ had a lot of business worries.
He was at his peak in 74 and 75.
Good cars, good chief mechanic and everybody experienced.

[Hoop-98]

Thanks Hoop.
By that time in 76 the B29 Chevron was tired. Most of his experienced crew had left for one reason or another and BJ had a lot of business worries.
He was at his peak in 74 and 75.
Good cars, good chief mechanic and everybody experienced.

Bruce finished 5th in 74 at TR, 75 he was 23d (throttle failure) certainly he was competitive.

Racing has been so up and down in the 45 years or so I have followed, to me it is just part of the cycles of racing, not some religious war with evil powers of darkness against white knights.

rh

[Hoop-98]

The late 70's Formula B (the Atlantic name came later I believe) was some of the best racing ever, anytime, anywhere.

Race in 10 Min here;

http://www.dl2-timing.com/live/

Atlantics started in 74, wanna guess this 67 race?

http://i31.tinypic.com/14ac5ck.jpg

rh

[Hoop-98]

MidRace:

http://i28.tinypic.com/302nswj.jpg

rh

[Hoop-98]

Looks like it got close at then end:

http://i28.tinypic.com/rm4lk9.jpg

rh

[Mark in Oshawa]

Not a bad race I guess for 11 cars...but I don't think I would want to see that small a field for anything, even on a nice tight track like Trois Rivieres.

It is a great little circuit and the "bird" watching there was fantastic when I was up there a lot in the 90's... :)

[Easy Drifter]

The FA fields have been small all year.
A possibility some of the smaller teams did not come to 3 Cricks is that people did not have passports.The field at Mosport for a SCCA/CASC combined event was a way down this year with far fewer US entrants and I expect that was part of the reason.
US citizens do not need passports to enter Canada but they do to get back into the US!
I expect a small field at Mosport for FA and I understand several ALMS teams are not coming as well.
I expect to be there for my first 'pro' race for many years, although I do go to quite a few club races.
I expect many of you will have figured out I was part of the FB/ Atlantic scene back in the day, crewing from 69 to 76 and then as a crew chief again in 79.
I continued to be active in racing until 88, just not in pro racing.

[chuck34]

Not a bad race I guess for 11 cars...but I don't think I would want to see that small a field for anything, even on a nice tight track like Trois Rivieres.

It is a great little circuit and the "bird" watching there was fantastic when I was up there a lot in the 90's... :)

Just got back from there Mark, and the "birds" are still fantastic. Now it's all about the NASCAR guys. Jaques drove so that was all that happened aparently. The Atlantics are great to watch, but I wish there were more of them.

[Easy Drifter]

Coming to Mosport Chuck?
Awsome track but the bird watching is nowhere near as productive as at the Quebec tracks! :D
Anybody coming for the first time I can give some hints as can Mark in Oshawa.

[gm99]

The FA fields have been small all year.
A possibility some of the smaller teams did not come to 3 Cricks is that people did not have passports.The field at Mosport for a SCCA/CASC combined event was a way down this year with far fewer US entrants and I expect that was part of the reason.
US citizens do not need passports to enter Canada but they do to get back into the US!
I expect a small field at Mosport for FA and I understand several ALMS teams are not coming as well.

With all the money it takes to go racing professionally, surely the 100 bucks or so it costs to have a passport issued can't really be the problem? Just wondering...

[chuck34]

Coming to Mosport Chuck?
Awsome track but the bird watching is nowhere near as productive as at the Quebec tracks! :D
Anybody coming for the first time I can give some hints as can Mark in Oshawa.

I've been to Mosport before, but not going this year.

[Easy Drifter]

It is not the cost of a passport so much as it is a fairly new requirement. The majority of US citizens do not have passports and it may be some of the smaller teams just have people who were not aware one was needed until too late.
This was probably very true with the SCCA club racers.

[Hoop-98]

They also have to deal with canada's screening of the team members. Anyone with a DUI, or marijuana conviction or any criminal conviction/arrest in their past will be staying home unless they take care of it beforehand. That was a bulletin sent to all teams.

rh

[chuck34]

I'm not sure it's a passport issue. Talking to a few teams this weekend, it sounds like it costs about $1000-$1500 to get a broker that handles all the customs issues involved with crossing the boarder, and what-not. Then you factor in the fuel, hotels, food, etc. which are all way more expensive there than in most places in the States, and it just becomes too much.

[Easy Drifter]

The criminal conviction and DUI applies to Cdns. going into the US too.
If you plan ahead there is no need for a broker. VARAC (The Vintage club) had a blurb on the paperwork required that you could get ahead of time and just hand in at the border. Gas is more expensive but filling up just before entering Canada would mean probably only 1 fill up at the most in Canada. US dollar is stronger than Cdn. too by about 10%.
Chain motels run from $100 to $150 a night (except in Toronto where they are out of sight) but a little searching can find cheaper.
Where I stay for Mosport it is $58 for a single and $68 for a double plus tax. Only place closer is Bowmanville. I just go north instead of down to the 401.
Food is more expensive.
The border is definetely more of a hassle than it used to be. Never had a problem in the 70's in pro racing and same in the 80's with club racing and really no paperwork.
Yes I know all about paperwork as we imported tropical fish from Africa and the Amazon and exported to the US. We did our own paperwork and once you knew the coding no problems.

[chuck34]

The criminal conviction and DUI applies to Cdns. going into the US too.
If you plan ahead there is no need for a broker. VARAC (The Vintage club) had a blurb on the paperwork required that you could get ahead of time and just hand in at the border. Gas is more expensive but filling up just before entering Canada would mean probably only 1 fill up at the most in Canada. US dollar is stronger than Cdn. too by about 10%.
Chain motels run from $100 to $150 a night (except in Toronto where they are out of sight) but a little searching can find cheaper.
Where I stay for Mosport it is $58 for a single and $68 for a double plus tax. Only place closer is Bowmanville. I just go north instead of down to the 401.
Food is more expensive.
The border is definetely more of a hassle than it used to be. Never had a problem in the 70's in pro racing and same in the 80's with club racing and really no paperwork.
Yes I know all about paperwork as we imported tropical fish from Africa and the Amazon and exported to the US. We did our own paperwork and once you knew the coding no problems.

I didn't directly deal with the paperwork issues, but I did see what needed to be filled out. Especially if you have a semi full, you really need a broker for all the hoops they make you jump through. Then you have to have special permits for most semi trucks as US versions are too long. You also need to have an electronic limiter set to 65mph. There are a multitude of small little laws like that that all add up.

[chuck34]

Judging by some of the truck traffic that's passed me on the QEW between Ft. Erie and Toronto, the MPH in 65MPH must stand for "More Pedal Henri".
:p

That might be a Quebec only rule, not sure. But know it was stressed to the guys as a major infraction something like $1000 if caught. And apparently the cops at the border crossing in Champlain were tipped off about all the folks comming over and were being sticklers.

[Easy Drifter]

As of this year trucks in Ont. (large commercial) have to have a limiter at 105KPH. I believe it applies to Ont. registered trucks only. Quebec does do its own thing!!
Mark in Oshawa could tell us the details as he drives a rig.
It must be a real blank off for Ont. truckers running in the US.
Different border crossings can be quite different.
US Fish and Wildlife on the Niagara Frontier are real ---holes.
Detroit/Port Huron great.
For air shipments the Chicago Fish and Wildlife were always extremely helpful.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I didn't directly deal with the paperwork issues, but I did see what needed to be filled out. Especially if you have a semi full, you really need a broker for all the hoops they make you jump through. Then you have to have special permits for most semi trucks as US versions are too long. You also need to have an electronic limiter set to 65mph. There are a multitude of small little laws like that that all add up.

Getting a truck with regular freight across the border is easy if you have done your homework. THere are no permits for any US trucks coming to Canada, since Canadian laws are more relaxed on hours of service, weights, and sizes. The ONLY concern for American teams coming to race in Canada, is they don't understand the need for all the extra ppwk (its an another country...duh!) and don't like it. What is more, with this new limiter law, it is outright harassment and stupidity.

As for being stuck at 105km/h (65mph)in the US, it only really shows its down side in the Western US past the Mississippi. With the price of fuel, I cant understand anyone needing to push a truck faster, but hey, I wish I could run 75 just the same..lol.

The Atlantic field sucked this year (getting back on topic) because Atlantics have lost their national image and their role as a ladder rung. Atlantics are dying......

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chuck...by the way, you should have let me know you were heading up for that, I could have given you some tips and or me you for lunch on the way through.....

[chuck34]

Getting a truck with regular freight across the border is easy if you have done your homework. THere are no permits for any US trucks coming to Canada, since Canadian laws are more relaxed on hours of service, weights, and sizes. The ONLY concern for American teams coming to race in Canada, is they don't understand the need for all the extra ppwk (its an another country...duh!) and don't like it. What is more, with this new limiter law, it is outright harassment and stupidity.

As for being stuck at 105km/h (65mph)in the US, it only really shows its down side in the Western US past the Mississippi. With the price of fuel, I cant understand anyone needing to push a truck faster, but hey, I wish I could run 75 just the same..lol.

The Atlantic field sucked this year (getting back on topic) because Atlantics have lost their national image and their role as a ladder rung. Atlantics are dying......


All I know is that I talked to a couple team owners that were there, without cars, and they said the paperwork/broker/money/stuff was the reason they weren't racing.

As for meeting you, I should have said something, but just didn't even really think about it. Next time I'm up there though I will.

[Mark in Oshawa]

All I know is that I talked to a couple team owners that were there, without cars, and they said the paperwork/broker/money/stuff was the reason they weren't racing.

As for meeting you, I should have said something, but just didn't even really think about it. Next time I'm up there though I will.

Paperwork/broker/money/stuff means they have to fill out forms, which everyone hates, and proabably have to pay for a broker for it all to end up at the right desks at customs. IT isn't that big a deal if you know which forms and have someone looking after it, but that does cost a bit of dough, so poorer teams I guess would take a walk. That said, my SCCA contacts told me that basically all the stuff on the truck including the race car is considered "American" and as long as it all comes home, that there is no duty paid. They truck their gear across the border for the World Challenge and their IMSA counterparts do the same with their extensive stuff, and it isn't a big deal as far as they are concerned.

If crossing the Canadian border was onerous, we woudn't have the number of series coming up here....

[chuck34]

If crossing the Canadian border was onerous, we woudn't have the number of series coming up here....

Yes but the teams/people I deal with are on VERY tight budgets. The $1000 or so to insure that the paperwork gets on the right desk eats up a lot of their budget. Granted I'm not talking about Atlantic teams, who I suppose have larger budgets. But still it all adds up.

[Easy Drifter]

The minute you employ a broker it gets expensive. We learned that very quickly with the fish.
If you plan ahead and get copies of the paperwork ready yourself no big deal. All the info is available on line but the trick would be to talk to a team that has come up a few times so you can get the section numbers in the 'book'.
3 am at the border (or in our case at the airport with boxes of live fish that have been 30 hrs in transit from Africa) with tired grouchy customs officers is not the time to have wrong or no paperwork!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes but the teams/people I deal with are on VERY tight budgets. The $1000 or so to insure that the paperwork gets on the right desk eats up a lot of their budget. Granted I'm not talking about Atlantic teams, who I suppose have larger budgets. But still it all adds up.

I cant say for sure what they would have to do with the stuff, since I am not on the end of paying for getting it through customs, just making sure I have the invoiced faxed through in good time.

I don't think it would be 1000 bucks for one trip, and the series should be assisting teams with this process. The FF1600 series that used to run in Canada and northern US had a sponsor in Deringer, a US based customs broker and they did all the grunt work as part of the deal of sponsorship. I think something could have been worked out but it is obvious the people running the series are either very cash strapped or not up on what it takes to get people to the tracks. There is no point in coming to Canada and only having 11 cars there. They wont get an invite back if they keep that up....

[chuck34]

I cant say for sure what they would have to do with the stuff, since I am not on the end of paying for getting it through customs, just making sure I have the invoiced faxed through in good time.

I don't think it would be 1000 bucks for one trip, and the series should be assisting teams with this process. The FF1600 series that used to run in Canada and northern US had a sponsor in Deringer, a US based customs broker and they did all the grunt work as part of the deal of sponsorship. I think something could have been worked out but it is obvious the people running the series are either very cash strapped or not up on what it takes to get people to the tracks. There is no point in coming to Canada and only having 11 cars there. They wont get an invite back if they keep that up....

I KNOW that it was at least 1000 bucks for the trip, done the recommened way. Now yes, you could have done things on your own. But then you had no help if anything went pear shaped. It's a risk, a risk I probably wouldn't have taken.

The guys I know were not in the Atlantic series. The series I was dealing with did not give any finacial help to their teams for this trip.

[PA Rick]

Shouldn't the organizers have coordinated the logistics? Why should each team have to reinvent the wheel?

[Easy Drifter]

Race organizers have enough to do without another headache. They usually have several series running at an event and never really know just what teams are going to show up, despite early entries. Some teams entered don't show and others not pre entered do.
Remember you are dealing with both US and Cdn. Customs and Immigration. The organizers usually have no idea of the type of haulers the teams have or what spares and equipment they are bringing. Probably at least half the teams will not know what spares they are bringing until they load their rigs.
Asking the organizers to try and find out all the info and then work with border officials from both countries would be a monumental task.
Teams coming from the US to Mosport could be crossing at Cornwall, Gananoque, Lewiston, Niagara Falls, Fort Erie, Windsor or Sarnia. Even Sault St. Marie is possible.
Once you have done it and know the paperwork required it is not that difficult. Using a broker the first time might be an idea though. Then just keep copies of the paperwork.
I crossed the border to races with cars several times a year and never had a real problem but that was in simpler times.
Dealing with tropical fish coming from countries in Africa involved a lot of paperwork including ensuring the shipper had incluuded proper export clearances and vet certificates. Shipping into the US involved not only US Customs but US Fish and Wildlife. They do not have offices at many airports and even fewer that are open more than 9 to 5. Shipments had to go to a US Fish and Wildlife staffed airport and the flight had to arrive when inspectors were available. Heck even customs at some airports were 9 to 5. We got used to the proper codings and making sure on the timing of flight arrivals. I really loved getting up at 2 or 3 am to get a shipment on a flight first thing in the morning. Remember we had to catch and pack the blasted things before heading to the airport 2 hours away!