SHAME SHAME SHAME. Windsor playing the blame game

[Placid]

Peter an Ken are currently within the time table as they begun building
the USF1 car for 2010. This article intrigue me because this quote
caught on to me.

"There are very good American drivers out there. To be honest,
shame on Formula 1 and shame on American motorsport that some of
these great young Americans with single seater talent have not been
nurtured more and given more opportunity. If they'd all been out there
racing Formula Renault, Formula 3, GP2, we'd be in a different ballpark
right now."

It really made sense.

On this blame game, it follows this:

On shame in F1 - Blame it on STR, Red Bull for terminating the Red Bull
US Driver Search, and American sponsors who supported foreign drivers.

On Shame in US motorsport - Blame it on the split and lack of US drivers.

Report:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77582

[I am evil Homer]

Or blame it on the lure of NASCAR....Allmendinger, Hornish Jr....

[Saint Devote]

When has it been anything but the task of the driver to organize and make his own way and try to reach f1? Never.

There is nothing wrong with the Red Bull program - it is producing good drivers, the most well known named Vettel.

If for some lunatic reason any American driver rather goes to NASCAR [shudder!] for example then no matter how good they are supposed to be they do not deserve to be in f1.

Just looking around there is no American driver that stands out as f1 material. If USF1 wants to be like Toyota and installs various shades of Japanese driver then it is a waste of effort and very silly in my view.

One washed up f1 driver for experience and an underachieving new driver based on nationality is no recipe for f1 success.

[keysersoze]

If for some lunatic reason any American driver rather goes to NASCAR [shudder!] for example then no matter how good they are supposed to be they do not deserve to be in f1.

Just looking around there is no American driver that stands out as f1 material. If USF1 wants to be like Toyota and installs various shades of Japanese driver then it is a waste of effort and very silly in my view.

One washed up f1 driver for experience and an underachieving new driver based on nationality is no recipe for f1 success.

On point 1: This doesn't make a lick of sense. By this standard, Montoya doesn't deserve to be in F1? A guy who is having his best year ever in cabs but is doing his darndest to hang onto the a top-ten in the standings?

On point 2: Have you not been paying attention? Clearly, Jonathan Summerton is a top-notch prospect, and is on the short list. The pundits even think a guy who has zero open-wheel experience (Kyle Busch) has what it takes.

On point 3: If you are talking about Wurz--the dude's car-development / testing skills are very respected. On the contrary, having a redoubtable test driver is THE recipe for success. As far as nationality playing a role in a team's decision to hire a given driver--it happens all the time. Heck, Rosberg is tipped to join McLaren partly because he's German. Don't be naive--F1 is, first and foremost, a business . . . or do you just have underlying negative feelings toward American drivers?

[CNR]

Alexander Rossi is the first American winner of the Formula BMW ... (http://www.bmwcca.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3955)
Alexander M. Rossi
http://www.alexanderrossi.com/biography.cfm

[Saint Devote]

On point 1: This doesn't make a lick of sense. By this standard, Montoya doesn't deserve to be in F1? A guy who is having his best year ever in cabs but is doing his darndest to hang onto the a top-ten in the standings?

On point 2: Have you not been paying attention? Clearly, Jonathan Summerton is a top-notch prospect, and is on the short list. The pundits even think a guy who has zero open-wheel experience (Kyle Busch) has what it takes.

On point 3: If you are talking about Wurz--the dude's car-development / testing skills are very respected. On the contrary, having a redoubtable test driver is THE recipe for success. As far as nationality playing a role in a team's decision to hire a given driver--it happens all the time. Heck, Rosberg is tipped to join McLaren partly because he's German. Don't be naive--F1 is, first and foremost, a business . . . or do you just have underlying negative feelings toward American drivers?

Montoya no longer deserves to be in f1 but not for that reason - he WAS in f1 and I was referriong to those that choose NASCAR [shudder!] as a primary.

The podgy little git no longer deserves to be in f1 because he left realizing after Mclaren it was downhill and he ran like a cry baby continuing to bad mouth f1 whenever he can - in between doughnuts of course.

Any product from American racing WILL surprise me if they even make the grid within 107% and can extract a cars true potential. Sunmmerton would be a questionble choice, his nationality the worst of unprofessional reasons to select him.

Even the NAZIS did not go that far!

Wurz is test driver material - they want to hire a driver that Mclaren never rated good enough to race? Why dont they look at his track record? If Anderson and Windsor do select him then they are not very good at managing.

Rosberg may join Mclaren [if he has a career death wish] but it is because of his driving and potential, that he is German merely makes his choice favorable for Mercedes.

[Dave B]

Any product from American racing WILL surprise me if they even make the grid within 107% and can extract a cars true potential.
You presumably do remember that the 107% rule was abolished for 2003, yes? :dozey:

[Jag_Warrior]

Sunmmerton would be a questionble choice, his nationality the worst of unprofessional reasons to select him.

Even the NAZIS did not go that far!

How does that unwritten internet rule go? Something like, "anyone who pulls a reference to Nazis or Hitler out of the blue, just to make a (very) weak point seem strong automatically loses."

Well, thanks for playing. :dozey:

[Sonic]

How does that unwritten internet rule go? Something like, "anyone who pulls a reference to Nazis or Hitler out of the blue, just to make a (very) weak point seem strong automatically loses."

Well, thanks for playing. :dozey:

I was just about to post much the same....... :rolleyes:

[Robinho]

i refuse to belive that there are no drivers in the States who are capable of competing in F1, albeit there may not be any who can challenge for a title, but to be fair there are only a few in the world at any one time who seem to be capable of that.

there are plenty of layers of formulae in the US to nurture drivers, and plenty have a go in europe too. it will always be difficult to compare unless drivers cross the pond at the top level in one way or the other.

it makes sense for USF1 to at least lok towards a home grown driver, there are enough of them, and until they've competed in F1 we won't know for sure if they are good enough, with the level of competition in F1 they should improve.

it certainly won't be easy, but to pair them with an experienced driver will help the driver to learn, help the team develop the car and give a decent guage of the speed. if whoever it is starts off by beating a Trulli, Rubens, Heidfeld or similar we know they are not rubbish at least.

undoubtedly drivers coming to F1 have struggled in recent history - multiple champions and winners like Zanardi, Da Matta, Bourdais and to a lesser extent Montoya have all struggled to translate the form in F1, although there are often mitigating factors, such as only Montoya had a car capable of challenging. on the other hand drivers who never quite made the grade either in F1 or just missed the cut for it have flourished in the states (Franchitti, Wilson amongst many)

i do believe with the right support, and a decent run at it, one of the young Americans could well get up to speed in F1, certinaly as well as most of the midfield and below currently in F1. it might take a little longer to find a champion, but without the chance we'll never know will we.

chicken and egg - without a chance we'll never know if they are good enough, if they aren't good enough they won't get a chance

[Anubis]

Other than for marketing reasons, is there actually a reason for this desire for a US F1 driver? As long as you have enough other career choices (ICS, ALMS, NASCAR etc), why should we automatically assume F1 is the goal? You could make a better argument for needing more French drivers in F1, given the history of the sport, but they've been pretty thin on the ground in recent years.

[Saint Devote]

You presumably do remember that the 107% rule was abolished for 2003, yes? :dozey:

Yes, I was just using that measure to illustrate my point.

[Saint Devote]

How does that unwritten internet rule go? Something like, "anyone who pulls a reference to Nazis or Hitler out of the blue, just to make a (very) weak point seem strong automatically loses."

Well, thanks for playing. :dozey:

The national socialists loved motor racing and sought to raise a national champion which they wanted to be raced exclusively by German drivers - they did not abide by it entirely.

Sounds like a rule made up by a person without an answer and used by those harboring nazi sympathies....

[Saint Devote]

Other than for marketing reasons, is there actually a reason for this desire for a US F1 driver? As long as you have enough other career choices (ICS, ALMS, NASCAR etc), why should we automatically assume F1 is the goal? You could make a better argument for needing more French drivers in F1, given the history of the sport, but they've been pretty thin on the ground in recent years.

Because anyone entering any career desires to reach the top? Yes?
And as f1 is the top it can be assumed f1 is the goal.

Of course one cannot account for any lack of ambition or the Michael Andretti American syndrome.

[call_me_andrew]

How does that unwritten internet rule go? Something like, "anyone who pulls a reference to Nazis or Hitler out of the blue, just to make a (very) weak point seem strong automatically loses."

Well, thanks for playing. :dozey:

You're thinking of Godwin's Law. It states that as a discussion on the Internet continues the probability of someone being compared to Hitler approaches one. It's intended to deter the logical fallacy, argumentum ad Hitlerum, which is based on argumentum ad absurdum.

It mostly deals with guilt by assocation. If Hitler/Nazis did/like X, then X must be evil.

Saint Devote forgets that only a minority of Americans have heard of F1. I'm willing to bet that most of said minority accept F1 as the "pinnacle of motor racing".

[race_director]

my reasoning is that the american motorsport is so much involved around oval tracks that driver's find it very difficult to adjust in the street and real tracks in f1

i might be wrong . but this is only my view

How does that unwritten internet rule go? Something like, "anyone who pulls a reference to Nazis or Hitler out of the blue, just to make a (very) weak point seem strong automatically loses."

Well, thanks for playing. :dozey:

As opposed to the unwritten rule that states that anyone who uses that tired remark to stifle debate has a very fascist attitude.

Dank fur das spielen.

[Saint Devote]

You're thinking of Godwin's Law. It states that as a discussion on the Internet continues the probability of someone being compared to Hitler approaches one. It's intended to deter the logical fallacy, argumentum ad Hitlerum, which is based on argumentum ad absurdum.

It mostly deals with guilt by assocation. If Hitler/Nazis did/like X, then X must be evil.

Saint Devote forgets that only a minority of Americans have heard of F1. I'm willing to bet that most of said minority accept F1 as the "pinnacle of motor racing".

The Hitler referral I make has to do with commonality - it was a regime that placed motor racing prestige on high to the degree that the Stuck family Jewish connection was overlooked.

The nazis were leftists, they were national socialists - the group, the people, the volk, the collective was supreme - the individual always the enemy.

Selection of a driver based on ETHNICITY is racist, not capitalist, collectivist and always works against success.

Doing so in motor racing is nazi-like and they did not even do so absolutely.

For USF1 to separate itself then it has to select a driver worthy of f1 and the best driver in their judgement of any others available - and my view is that at this stage there is none - who happens to be American. That is the proper way.

And yes I know that there is a very strong minority of Americans that view f1 properly.

Well... I think f1 rubs up against an emotionalistic attitude which prevails in the US to a large degree that if it is not American it cannot be the best, ever.

But there is a misunderstanding too I think that "quick" is not distinguished from "fast". And in f1 as well know, outright speed is not the deciding factor in a quick lap.

[Saint Devote]

As opposed to the unwritten rule that states that anyone who uses that tired remark to stifle debate has a very fascist attitude.

Dank fur das spielen.

As an Italian name perhaps you would think that way........ Do you wear a black shirt?

As an Italian name perhaps you would think that way........ Do you wear a black shirt?

Only when I'm getting the trains to run on time.

[call_me_andrew]

Selection of a driver based on ETHNICITY is racist, not capitalist, collectivist and always works against success.

But they're not selecting a driver on ethnicity, they're selecting a driver on nationality.

[race_director]

But they're not selecting a driver on ethnicity, they're selecting a driver on nationality.

well said . even thought i have do not have great opinion on USA drivers in f1

But a team trying to have a driver from it country of origin is a 100% demand which it can have on its list. calling it racism is a very illogical thought.

Back in 90's i remember renault having atleast one french driver every year . and also pretty sure that force india will have a Indian driver most likely karan chandok in its team in the future.

a team having a driver from country of it origin is absolutely fine. regardless of pure patriotic or a commercial interest .

at end of the day the team has paid all the money to the tugs to get into f1 and its there choice to have a driver they want . if they are within the rules of the game . its fine.


how will u feel if some one else decides the Menu at ur wedding ?

[ClarkFan]

Alexander Rossi is the first American winner of the Formula BMW ... (http://www.bmwcca.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3955)
Alexander M. Rossi
http://www.alexanderrossi.com/biography.cfm
Future potential as a driver, but probably too far down the single seater food chain to be a F1 candidate for 2010. The same is likely true of Summerton - he has looked good in Atlantics, but there is not enough depth in that series now for it be a true measure.

The problem has been that there has not been a well sponsored, competitive North America-based open wheel development chain since the 1996 split. American corporate sponsors go to NASCAR for the television coverage, so the drivers with funds to sponsor serious (read: expensive) rides in open wheel cars come from other continents. As a result, US drivers who want to make a living have gravitated towards NASCAR, since that is where the money is.

I would like to see A.J. Allmendinger get tired of finishing 20th-40th in the taxi races and put his ability to better use. Rahal has potential but needs more experience, Andrett seems lost right now, and Patrick would just be a mobile chicane in F1 - she has real issues on the road courses in Indycars.

USF1 is certainly looking at a skinny list of possiblities for an American F1 driver, and fixing on nationality may not serve them well. On the other hand, racing nationalism is doing is nothing unusual, and some times it works and some times it doesn't. Alfa favored Farina for the first World Championship because he was Italian. Mercedes in the 1950's employed German drivers who were clearly second rate. Stirling Moss drove some dodgy cars because they were British. Renault sponsored and then hired Alain Prost because he was French. Michael Schumacher rose through the racing ranks with Daimler backing, and BMW pushed Williams to hire Ralf. Honda has often backed Japanese drivers of questionable qualification, and Nakajima II's presence in a Williams today is probably due to sharing nationality with Toyota.

So why is what USF1 is doing wrong?

ClarkFan

[Roamy]

Windsor is lining up to be the next big loser in F1. Hiring Wurz or DeLaRosa is stupid. Neither have done jack and now you have one of these training a rookie and developing a car plus trying to lead. I am afraid this team will be horrible and another black mark against some good American driver who will never have a proper chance unless he can beat either of these two stones and get the hell out of this team.

But if you have to take one of these PDLR is the best bet cuz you don't have to redesign the car as you would for the "Bean Pole"

[ClarkFan]

Windsor is lining up to be the next big loser in F1. Hiring Wurz or DeLaRosa is stupid. Neither have done jack and now you have one of these training a rookie and developing a car plus trying to lead. I am afraid this team will be horrible and another black mark against some good American driver who will never have a proper chance unless he can beat either of these two stones and get the hell out of this team.

But if you have to take one of these PDLR is the best bet cuz you don't have to redesign the car as you would for the "Bean Pole"
Plus, based on his last races for McLaren, PDLR gets your car on camera for spectacular OTEs. Sponsors love that...... :p

ClarkFan

[Saint Devote]

But they're not selecting a driver on ethnicity, they're selecting a driver on nationality.

Then I mispoke because I should have written nationalilty, no difference. Nationalism is equally evil.

They should leave such last century crap alone. F1 is supposed to be a professional sport and all the nonsense that pretends each driver, team and grand prix is competition between countries has no place.

I look forward to the day when all teams seek to employ the best drivers and it is the team flag that waves on the podium.

Drivers do not even LIVE in their supposed countries.

The only valid reason to employ a driver of a specific nationality providing he is the best available is for capitalistic marketing by sponsors.

[Saint Devote]

Future potential as a driver, but probably too far down the single seater food chain to be a F1 candidate for 2010. The same is likely true of Summerton - he has looked good in Atlantics, but there is not enough depth in that series now for it be a true measure.

The problem has been that there has not been a well sponsored, competitive North America-based open wheel development chain since the 1996 split. American corporate sponsors go to NASCAR for the television coverage, so the drivers with funds to sponsor serious (read: expensive) rides in open wheel cars come from other continents. As a result, US drivers who want to make a living have gravitated towards NASCAR, since that is where the money is.

I would like to see A.J. Allmendinger get tired of finishing 20th-40th in the taxi races and put his ability to better use. Rahal has potential but needs more experience, Andrett seems lost right now, and Patrick would just be a mobile chicane in F1 - she has real issues on the road courses in Indycars.

USF1 is certainly looking at a skinny list of possiblities for an American F1 driver, and fixing on nationality may not serve them well. On the other hand, racing nationalism is doing is nothing unusual, and some times it works and some times it doesn't. Alfa favored Farina for the first World Championship because he was Italian. Mercedes in the 1950's employed German drivers who were clearly second rate. Stirling Moss drove some dodgy cars because they were British. Renault sponsored and then hired Alain Prost because he was French. Michael Schumacher rose through the racing ranks with Daimler backing, and BMW pushed Williams to hire Ralf. Honda has often backed Japanese drivers of questionable qualification, and Nakajima II's presence in a Williams today is probably due to sharing nationality with Toyota.

So why is what USF1 is doing wrong?

ClarkFan

I agfree with your post in the main. Why are USF1 wrong? Because nationality is a primary selection criteria. It ought to be secondary for good reason only. And an "American team" [Windsor and Anderson are Brits anyway?!!!] wanting an American driver is not professional it is nationalism.

The whole concept of an American team - any "natonality team" - is a load of crap anyway and does not belong in modern motor racing.

But then people in 2009 still believe in ghosts so why try and argue for reason anyway.

[CNR]

what is American ?
Colin Edwards nicknamed the Texas Tornado is an American professional motorcycle racer (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Motorcycle_sport).
Australian father, Colin Edwards Sr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization
Naturalization/Naturalisation is the acquisition of citizenship (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Citizenship) or nationality (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Nationality) by somebody who was not a citizen or national of that country when he or she was born.

do usf1 look at any of the Naturalisation race drivers

[call_me_andrew]

what is American ?
Colin Edwards nicknamed the Texas Tornado is an American professional motorcycle racer (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Motorcycle_sport).
Australian father, Colin Edwards Sr.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalization
Naturalization/Naturalisation is the acquisition of citizenship (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Citizenship) or nationality (http://www.motorsportforums.com/wiki/Nationality) by somebody who was not a citizen or national of that country when he or she was born.

do usf1 look at any of the Naturalisation race drivers

I would have used Mario Andretti as an example.

[keysersoze]

Lotus chose Satoru Nakajima because he was Japanese, and Honda wanted one Japanese driver in order to complete the engine deal.

The same can be said for Kaz getting the nod at Williams.

The Lewis Hamilton project has always been about getting a black driver a proper F1 shot.

There are countless stories of sponsors promising dollars based on a driver from that company's native country.

Let's not paint this as a tasteless "American Thing." Unless, of course, you WANT to come across as a xenophobe.

[gloomyDAY]

The Lewis Hamilton project has always been about getting a black driver a proper F1 shot.I think you're right to a certain extent. Lewis is an amazing driver, so whatever color he came in, I think he'd still be in Formula 1.

[Jag_Warrior]

As opposed to the unwritten rule that states that anyone who uses that tired remark to stifle debate has a very fascist attitude.

Dank fur das spielen.

Unwritten because it only exists in your little brain?

[Jag_Warrior]

The nazis were leftists, they were national socialists - the group, the people, the volk, the collective was supreme - the individual always the enemy.

Selection of a driver based on ETHNICITY is racist, not capitalist, collectivist and always works against success.

Doing so in motor racing is nazi-like and they did not even do so absolutely.


What do these "ethnic Americans" look like? And just when did "American" become an ethnic group anyway? I guess about the same time that German National Socialism, with its reliance on basic fascism and alliances with the far right of German politics, became "leftist". :rolleyes:

A private company (which the last time I checked, "USF1" or whetever it is to be called, is) preferring a driver of one nationality over another would suggest nationalism. But to confuse nationalist actions by a private company with the forced direction of private companies by the state (which is what German National Socialism did!) isn't just misinformed, it's stupid.

So... back to my original point about that idiotic non sequitur: until the United States mandates that any F1 racing team based in the U.S. must have at least one American driver, this ridiculous trotting out of Adolf and the boys is just a silly, cheap grab for attention. Which is what it usually is. Argument weak = pull Hitler from the hat.

[Jag_Warrior]

But they're not selecting a driver on ethnicity, they're selecting a driver on nationality.

Exactly, Andrew. Most likely it's for reasons of potential sponsorship or maybe just attention: witness the mention of the completely unfit for F1, Danica Patrick, in front of the cameras and microphones.

Roger Yasukawa is as American as Jimmie Johnson. And hell, he's more American than Paul Tracy. Yet Tracy and Johnson are of the same ethnic group (AFAIK). For someone to actually suggest that this has something to do with "American" being some sort of new master race, or even an ethnic group, just amazes me. It... it... it really does.

[Roamy]

Actually they should really sh!tcan F1 and everyone rollover A1Gp.

County against country - would provide spectacular racing. Hell it would be a soccer game on wheels

Punching out Frogs, Brats, and Whinging Palms - RAWKS !!

[Placid]

If Summerton gets the nod, I may expect him to do GP2 Asia as his
training ground this year. Windsor has to make calls to GP2 teams
and see who has an open seat. He can train on the F1 car.

[ArrowsFA1]

County against country - would provide spectacular racing. Hell it would be a soccer game on wheels
Neither A1GP or Superleague Formula have exactly set the world on fire.

[I am evil Homer]

.

The Lewis Hamilton project has always been about getting a black driver a proper F1 shot.



Truly one of the dumbest things said on here...and that's going some!

[Roamy]

Neither A1GP or Superleague Formula have exactly set the world on fire.

send over the f1 drivers and see what happens

[keysersoze]

Truly one of the dumbest things said on here...and that's going some!

Truly? Then enlighten me--otherwise, your comment cuts no ice.

[Knock-on]

Truly? Then enlighten me--otherwise, your comment cuts no ice.

I can see the attraction of having a Black driver in F1 but I don't think this was the case with Lewis.

Lewis has always stood out since he first started racing carts, beating older and more experienced drivers from the start.

He was 10 when he met Ron at the BRDC awards and bemused Ron by claiming he was going to race for him. Ron was taken aback by this confident young man and did a bit of digging. From there, he started helping Lewis and his Father.

All the way through his career, Lewis has excelled and proved his worth by winning the GP2 championship. However, go back over his career and it is the most sucessful record of any driver that I know of coming into F1.

2000 European Formula A Cart Champion and World Cup Champion (Rookie)
2001 World Super A Championship - 15th (Rookie)
2002 Formula Renault UK - 3rd (Rookie)
2003 Formula Renault UK - Champion
2004 Formula 3 Euroseries - 5th (Rookie)
2005 Formula 3 Euroseries - Champion
2006 GP2 - Champion (Rookie)
2007 F1 - 2nd (Rookie)
2008 F1 - Champion

In the last 4 years he has competed in the 3 most challenging racing series in the world and been champion in 3 of the 4 years.

If you want to discuss colour, I suggest the Black and White of this arguement is within the lines of this post.

[keysersoze]

I do not doubt Lewis' showed tremendous promise as a karter and in the lower categories--what I am saying is that Ron's interest in Lewis was in giving a black driver (and a black British driver to boot) a proper chance to make it to F1.

And you are telling me RD's interest in Lewis had nothing to do with his color?

[Knock-on]

I do not doubt Lewis' showed tremendous promise as a karter and in the lower categories--what I am saying is that Ron's interest in Lewis was in giving a black driver (and a black British driver to boot) a proper chance to make it to F1.

And you are telling me RD's interest in Lewis had nothing to do with his color?

I'm not saying anything of the sort.

Ron Dennis has not enquired as to my health recently so I haven't bothered asking :D

What I am saying is that Lewis has proved he has not just a right to be in F1 but at the very pinnacle. If he wasn't in F1 it would be amazing and a complete travesty of Justice.

There is no evidence whatsoever that he has been either helped or handicapped because of his colour (Which is mixed race and not Black as people claim. His Father is Black and Mother white).

Now, it may be that Ron decided to put a little black kid in a F1 car for whatever personal reasons but isn't it a bit out of character? Wouldn't it be more logical for him to see a stunning driver and grab him before someone else does ;)

[keysersoze]

Of course it's clear (now) that Lewis is one of the very best in the world today--I rate him about even with Vettel, but behind Alonso. However, the jury was still out on him--as a potential F1 star--even during the testing months prior to the start of the 2007 season.

[Saint Devote]

What do these "ethnic Americans" look like? And just when did "American" become an ethnic group anyway? I guess about the same time that German National Socialism, with its reliance on basic fascism and alliances with the far right of German politics, became "leftist". :rolleyes:

A private company (which the last time I checked, "USF1" or whetever it is to be called, is) preferring a driver of one nationality over another would suggest nationalism. But to confuse nationalist actions by a private company with the forced direction of private companies by the state (which is what German National Socialism did!) isn't just misinformed, it's stupid.

So... back to my original point about that idiotic non sequitur: until the United States mandates that any F1 racing team based in the U.S. must have at least one American driver, this ridiculous trotting out of Adolf and the boys is just a silly, cheap grab for attention. Which is what it usually is. Argument weak = pull Hitler from the hat.

America is a very ethnic country which runs counter to the image it likes to portray. There are hifenated-Americans and almost all of them wave the flags of those countries.

You are mistaken - nationalism of any variety, is the same. And the greatest example where nationality has never been a real factor is Ferrari.

US F1 by wanting an American driver are acting nationalistically.

It will bite them in the arse. They are going to go for an over the hill "experienced" driver and one novice that qualifies because of nationality.

[Saint Devote]

I think regardless of any secondary effects Hamilton's race may leverage and him taking full advantage of it, he was selected because of his ability and potential.

I do not like Hamilton because he comes across as very effeminate.

He also has no moral courage as demonstrated by the triathlon challenge to Button he whimped out of using "daddy" and how he can look at himself in the mirror after what he along with others at Mclaren did to Dave Ryan, only he knows.

[Anubis]

Because anyone entering any career desires to reach the top? Yes?
And as f1 is the top it can be assumed f1 is the goal.

Of course one cannot account for any lack of ambition or the Michael Andretti American syndrome.

That assumes everyone believes F1 IS the top, which is clearly not the case. The guys racing in NASCAR certainly don't seem to think it is, and I'm not about to accuse them of lacking ambition. Surely the ambition is to WIN races, but unless there's a top seat open, that just isn't going to happen in F1 these days, so forging a career in alternative series makes far more sense in the longer term. Not everyone lives in an F1-centric bubble.

[Saint Devote]

That assumes everyone believes F1 IS the top, which is clearly not the case. The guys racing in NASCAR certainly don't seem to think it is, and I'm not about to accuse them of lacking ambition. Surely the ambition is to WIN races, but unless there's a top seat open, that just isn't going to happen in F1 these days, so forging a career in alternative series makes far more sense in the longer term. Not everyone lives in an F1-centric bubble.

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks - I did not crown f1 as the top level in motor racing, that is an objective fact.

The f1 cars require a level of ability and mental awareness that is at a far higher level than any other series.

A driver entering racing and looking forward to a career may not want to rise that high - although I cannot fathom why - that is a personal choice.

The object is to win races yes, but attampting to win at the highest level of motor racing overrides anything else.

And NASCAR or IndyCar is nowhere close to that.

[Anubis]

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks - I did not crown f1 as the top level in motor racing, that is an objective fact.

The f1 cars require a level of ability and mental awareness that is at a far higher level than any other series.

A driver entering racing and looking forward to a career may not want to rise that high - although I cannot fathom why - that is a personal choice.

The object is to win races yes, but attampting to win at the highest level of motor racing overrides anything else.

And NASCAR or IndyCar is nowhere close to that.

So why isn't Montoya wiping the floor with everyone in NASCAR? Having raced at the sharp end of F1 with some success, and endowed with far higher ability and mental awareness, he should be finding it a breeze. As should Scott Speed, using that logic.

[Jag_Warrior]

America is a very ethnic country which runs counter to the image it likes to portray. There are hifenated-Americans and almost all of them wave the flags of those countries.

If by "waving the flags of those countries," you mean that their loyalties lie somewhere else, I call B.S. on you again. Why don't you stop pulling this foolishness out of your butt while you're behind?



You are mistaken - nationalism of any variety, is the same.

Once again, you trying to link German National Socialism to this action (any action) by a private company is, without a doubt, one of the silliest things that's been posted here in years.



US F1 by wanting an American driver are acting nationalistically.

Unless you're an investor in USF1, what's it to you? Complain to Williams and Toyota about Kazuki Nakajima and then get back to us.



It will bite them in the arse. They are going to go for an over the hill "experienced" driver and one novice that qualifies because of nationality.

See above response.

[Jag_Warrior]

The f1 cars require a level of ability and mental awareness that is at a far higher level than any other series.

Well, you certainly sound like a man who knows what he's talking about. So, just how does a man build the sort of ability and mental awareness that an F1 driver such as yourself has?

[winer]

Other than for marketing reasons, is there actually a reason for this desire for a US F1 driver?

There is no other reason. For the USF1 enterprise to be a success, it has be accepted and supported by people in the US. The point is to sell F1 to the American people and it will be much easier to to do that with American drivers. It will probably be impossible to do that without an American driver, given the American propensity for navel gazing.

[Saint Devote]

Well, you certainly sound like a man who knows what he's talking about. So, just how does a man build the sort of ability and mental awareness that an F1 driver such as yourself has?

Dont be silly now.

[Saint Devote]

There is no other reason. For the USF1 enterprise to be a success, it has be accepted and supported by people in the US. The point is to sell F1 to the American people and it will be much easier to to do that with American drivers. It will probably be impossible to do that without an American driver, given the American propensity for navel gazing.

I disagree.

Great American road racing icons Dan Gurney and Mark Donahue and Eagle and Penske racing could not. And there was of course Phil Hill and Richie Ginther - in fact during the early 60's there were THREE American drivers on the grid.

The along comes the greatest allrounder ever, Mario Andretti, winner of the Daytona 500, Indy 500, American racing champion in Indy cars, and becomes world champion including winning the US Grand Prix, and the US remains reluctant to embrace f1.

The fledgling US F1 team with a done nothing American f1 newbie and an "experienced" foreign driver is unlikely to achieve what American racing greats have not and at a time when the US had up to four grands prix.

The reason is because Americans for whatever reason will just never embrace "quick" over power.

It is not accidental that American cars have always been about brute power versus the sophisticated British and European car concepts.

F1 will always remain the domain of an extremely passionate and knowledgeable American minority. And I say that that is far better than attracting quantity if a choice is to be made.

I would rather see a US Grand Prix return, for a world championship without an American race is just incongruous and extremely irritating. If there is a nation where having a grand prix makes absolute sense it is the United States.

The current state of the f1 calendar is just plain offensive.

[Saint Devote]

So why isn't Montoya wiping the floor with everyone in NASCAR? Having raced at the sharp end of F1 with some success, and endowed with far higher ability and mental awareness, he should be finding it a breeze. As should Scott Speed, using that logic.

Because Nascar is less about a driver and more the car - it is oval racing.
That is why a 50 year old[!!!] is still able to be a championship contender.

And of course you are presuming that Montoya is the driver he was a few seasons ago in f1 - not so. He had already peaked when Mclaren fired him.

Anyway, there are many in Nascar that will not take kindly to being beaten by a foreigner - just lok at what happened at the Indy nascar race where Montoya would have won.

Montoya is very quick and in any racing situation he still outsmarts them all in nascar.

[Saint Devote]

If by "waving the flags of those countries," you mean that their loyalties lie somewhere else, I call B.S. on you again. Why don't you stop pulling this foolishness out of your butt while you're behind?

Once again, you trying to link German National Socialism to this action (any action) by a private company is, without a doubt, one of the silliest things that's been posted here in years.

Unless you're an investor in USF1, what's it to you? Complain to Williams and Toyota about Kazuki Nakajima and then get back to us.

See above response.

I did not mention loyalties - that is something else. My point is that many American groups that do wave foreign flags do not look at fellow Americans as well as they do those from a similar ethnic background.

You really ought to read what I have written and not derive your own interpretation vis a vis nationalism and the nazis.

The rest of your comment is even more inane and you do sound like an incredibly irate American. Whats new.

Americans like to dish it out to other nations - as long as it is a weaker nation than theirs - but RECEIVING criticisms is something else. Nothing new in that either.

As I have said earlier - America likes to portray America the way they like people to think about it, not the reality.

And now along comes Obama, throws off that disguise and people are up in arms. Amusing really.

[Jag_Warrior]

I did not mention loyalties - that is something else. My point is that many American groups that do wave foreign flags do not look at fellow Americans as well as they do those from a similar ethnic background.

You really ought to read what I have written and not derive your own interpretation vis a vis nationalism and the nazis.

The rest of your comment is even more inane and you do sound like an incredibly irate American. Whats new.

Americans like to dish it out to other nations - as long as it is a weaker nation than theirs - but RECEIVING criticisms is something else. Nothing new in that either.

As I have said earlier - America likes to portray America the way they like people to think about it, not the reality.

And now along comes Obama, throws off that disguise and people are up in arms. Amusing really.

Kid, you are off the chain. You really are. You've done nothing more than offer your (baseless) opinions disguised as facts. You've provided absolutely no evidence for most anything that you've claimed to be true here. Irate? Me? No. Amused? Absolutely. This is great stuff! :up:

It is only my opinion that your posts (at least in this thread) are some of the most ridiculous that I have ever seen on this board. But now, the objective evidence supporting that opinion is being provided by you.

Exhibit A:

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks - I did not crown f1 as the top level in motor racing, that is an objective fact.

An objective fact, you say? Well now... you should have no problem producing the objective evidence proving this fact. Hurry along. I'm waiting. :dozey: Formula One is the most viewed form of motorsport globally. That is an objective fact. Let me know when I can take a glance at that objective evidence which would prove it to be the "top level of motor racing".


Oh yeah, I absolutely do want to hear more about what it takes to drive an F1 car. Tell me more about this superior "ability and mental awareness" of which you speak. And no, don't stop now, son. You're obviously on a roll. Are you ever on a roll. :rolleyes:

[keysersoze]

Like you, Jag, I'm absolutely enjoying this. Keep this cat going!

[nigelred5]

But then people in 2009 still believe in ghosts so why try and argue for reason anyway.

Live in a home with one as I do, and you will surely believe. One which you see a person, not shadows, not auras but a person. not once , or twice, but sometimes several times a month. One I will also add that I've never been the least bit frghtened of.


Fact is, we have far more local events and sports to follow than a globetrotting F1 where there is little to no American participation. Why SHOULD the average American have any interest in a sport they have no conection to? Windsor is trying to build that connection. I follow ALL racing, but I was born in Germany, to a parent of german heritage and We watched all forms of racing growing up.

[Saint Devote]

Kid, you are off the chain. You really are. You've done nothing more than offer your (baseless) opinions disguised as facts. You've provided absolutely no evidence for most anything that you've claimed to be true here. Irate? Me? No. Amused? Absolutely. This is great stuff! :up:

It is only my opinion that your posts (at least in this thread) are some of the most ridiculous that I have ever seen on this board. But now, the objective evidence supporting that opinion is being provided by you.

Exhibit A:


An objective fact, you say? Well now... you should have no problem producing the objective evidence proving this fact. Hurry along. I'm waiting. :dozey: Formula One is the most viewed form of motorsport globally. That is an objective fact. Let me know when I can take a glance at that objective evidence which would prove it to be the "top level of motor racing".


Oh yeah, I absolutely do want to hear more about what it takes to drive an F1 car. Tell me more about this superior "ability and mental awareness" of which you speak. And no, don't stop now, son. You're obviously on a roll. Are you ever on a roll. :rolleyes:

Strange that I have to defend f1 to you, a supposed f1 fan. Let me educate you.

F1 cars are at the forefront of applied science such as the designers inventing the uses of materials that can used to manufacture the cars, they were the first to use carbon fibre on cars for example and the level of safety through the crash structure.

Then there are other ways that f1 technology leads the auto industry: introduction of paddle handles to change gears, the unique designs in gearbox internals and changes, refining the use of aero dynamics, leading in the reduction of the CoD - brilliant engineers such as Colin Chapman, Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey.

Even the helmets used by drivers are at the forefront and Schuberth concentrates its efforts in f1 - the helmet that prevented Massa from being killed at the Hungaroring.

These are merely a few.

The power to weight ratio of an f1 car is superior to that of any other racing car and the ability to drive that car competitively quick is only the domain of a very select few drivers.

The late Ken Tyrrell at the 1974 Monaco Grand Prix was interviewed and asked why he chose Jody Scheckter to replace Jackie Stewart. He said that there may be 100 drivers in the world that could drive the car to within a second of Jody's time. There may be 10 drivers that could drive the car to within a few hundredths of a second but only several that had the ability to drive it at the same pace.

So then you take every other car and and let them race around Monte Carlo today and we will see just which of them win that race. If you reckon that any would beat an f1 car then you embrace a subjective reality rather than reality itself, which is objective.

Then there are the words of one of the world's great auto manufacturers, BMW, the reasons why the entered and why they are also leaving the sport - there is an excellent article in the Aug 6 Autosport.

As for a driver's superior ability and mental awareness - I offer you the example of Alonso in Japan last year where he conducted strategy and raced and won.

Have you listened to the comments of Button while racing? He asks questions that demonstrates his awareness of the cars behind and in front related to his own strategy.

Then there is the complex functions of the f1 steering wheel, where a driver is required to alter settings for engine management and car balance for example for different corners on every lap.

No spotters or navigators or anything else required.

And if you have ever been to a grand prix, but maybe not just any race, races such as Monte Carlo or even watched old footage of races around the Nordschleife and doubt the superiority of these men that compete at the level of f1, then it is questions that ought to be raised about you.

Now you may challenge me to "prove" a case, a case that is done through objective observation and rational conclusion, not opinion, but by doing so you have also implicitly equally dismissed f1 as merely another racing series. I have never encountered someone lthat supposedly embraces f1 with such a conclusion.

This is not a debate I will persist with however - if you do not accept my answers then that is too bad because it is you that has the problem with f1, and in reality I do not care what you think of f1.

I recognize that I am watching the top level and I derive immense enjoyment and pleasure as I have since a child.

[Saint Devote]

Live in a home with one as I do, and you will surely believe. One which you see a person, not shadows, not auras but a person. not once , or twice, but sometimes several times a month. One I will also add that I've never been the least bit frghtened of.


Fact is, we have far more local events and sports to follow than a globetrotting F1 where there is little to no American participation. Why SHOULD the average American have any interest in a sport they have no conection to? Windsor is trying to build that connection. I follow ALL racing, but I was born in Germany, to a parent of german heritage and We watched all forms of racing growing up.

Whats the ghosts name? Casper?

If a person falls in love with a sport, what difference would it make where that sport is or what the national connection is?

I was not born or raised in the United States, yet I was fully aware of all sports since I was a child. I had never seen or been to the Indy 500, yet I knew and respect who Johnny Rutherford and AJ and Al and Bobby Unser are right through to someone that could have been an f1 champion Rick Mears.

It does not require being shwn everything, it requires being taught to have an inquiring mind and being taught to think and understand that there is a world and that what is closest to one is not to the exclusion of everything else.

Being parochial is a failure not a success.

Your comment referring to your German upbringing answers the very question that you pose!

[nigelred5]

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks - I did not crown f1 as the top level in motor racing, that is an objective fact.

The f1 cars require a level of ability and mental awareness that is at a far higher level than any other series.

A driver entering racing and looking forward to a career may not want to rise that high - although I cannot fathom why - that is a personal choice.

The object is to win races yes, but attampting to win at the highest level of motor racing overrides anything else.

And NASCAR or IndyCar is nowhere close to that.

Dude, pot meet kettle. There's plenty of nationalism, ethnicism and racism that hide behind that flag you're flying, here and elsewhere. I tend to find the most insecure in their own identity are regularly the most outspoken. I was not RAISED German, I was raised AMERICAN.

I don't see any of those nancy-boy F1 drivers having the nads to enter the 500. Many of them openly say it's too dangerous, ie- they are afraid of the challenge. Modern F1 drivers can't handle hte thought of tracks without 100 meters of asphalt and gravel traps lining the tracks.
You apparently don't understand the demands of Indycar racing at 220+ miles per hour for three hours or more virtually non-stop. I'd say many also underestimate the skills needed to be successful in NASCAR, racing for 4+ hours in closed cars weighing over twice that of an F1 car, with cockpit temps sometimes over 150 degrees, on a track with 42 other cars at 180+.
+

[Jag_Warrior]

Strange that I have to defend f1 to you, a supposed f1 fan. Let me educate you.

Somebody get me some water. I can't breathe!!! :rotflmao:



This is not a debate I will persist with however - if you do not accept my answers then that is too bad because it is you that has the problem with f1,

Nah, Sport... it's not F1 that I have the problem with. ;)



and in reality I do not care what you think of f1.

Good for you. There may be hope for you afterall. Because, surely by now, you realize that if it's my respect that's needed to keep you living & breathing... you is gonna die! What a goof! :D



I recognize that I am watching the top level and I derive immense enjoyment and pleasure as I have since a child.

And that's your opinion. It is an opinion which I share. But unlike you, I don't consider my opinions, based on subjectives and outrageous non sequiturs, to be FACTS!

But keep posting. Doctors have proven (with objective data, by the way) that laughter is good for people. You've likely added years to my life in the past few days. "The German National Socialists were leftists... ya know... cause they had 'socialist' in their name." :rotflmao:

Oh yeah, kid... since you actually said this:

It does not matter what anyone says or thinks - I did not crown f1 as the top level in motor racing, that is an objective fact.

...ya might wanna check out the power to weight ratio of a Top Fuel dragster and a MotoGP bike. But you keep on being you. I wouldn't trade you for a sack of monkeys.

[Jag_Warrior]

I don't see any of those nancy-boy F1 drivers having the nads to enter the 500. Many of them openly say it's too dangerous, ie- they are afraid of the challenge. Modern F1 drivers can't handle hte thought of tracks without 100 meters of asphalt and gravel traps lining the tracks.
You apparently don't understand the demands of Indycar racing at 220+ miles per hour for three hours or more virtually non-stop. I'd say many also underestimate the skills needed to be successful in NASCAR, racing for 4+ hours in closed cars weighing over twice that of an F1 car, with cockpit temps sometimes over 150 degrees, on a track with 42 other cars at 180+.
+

Nigel, do you remember the woman that came to the CCWS (I think), or maybe it was the IRL board, about three years ago? Some guy was hound dogging her daughter. And she was trying to see what was true and what was fantasy. He had stories of being a former F1, Champ Car and NASCAR driver. He knew Schumacher, Roger Penske (I think he had a test contract with Penske and Ferrari at the same time) and the Andrettis. Remember her at all? It was funny and kind of pitiful at the same time.

To have all of this deep and comparative knowledge of different formulas, this Saint Devote fellow would have to be pretty good racing buddies with that international man of mystery, doncha think? ;)

"Facts, by gum, by gosh. I'm giving you people facts and you won't accept the truth!!! You people can't handle the truth!"

If he can deliver that line as well as Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men", I'm going to ask Mark to add reputation points to this board so I can give this character some rep. It's the true characters who have made this board so much fun over the years. :D

[DexDexter]

I don't see any of those nancy-boy F1 drivers having the nads to enter the 500. Many of them openly say it's too dangerous, ie- they are afraid of the challenge. Modern F1 drivers can't handle hte thought of tracks without 100 meters of asphalt and gravel traps lining the tracks.
You apparently don't understand the demands of Indycar racing at 220+ miles per hour for three hours or more virtually non-stop. I'd say many also underestimate the skills needed to be successful in NASCAR, racing for 4+ hours in closed cars weighing over twice that of an F1 car, with cockpit temps sometimes over 150 degrees, on a track with 42 other cars at 180+.
+

Kimi Räikkönen just drove the Neste Rally Finland. Well, I don't know if you've seen any rallying but no nancy-boy will do that, drive over 100mph on narrow gravel roads between trees, trusting only the co-drivers notes. F1 is the pinnacle of open-wheel Formula type racing and I'm sure you know that as well if you leave your national feeling aside for a moment. Indycar racing was great in the 90's and I loved following it, but we know how it is now.

[call_me_andrew]

Because Nascar is less about a driver and more the car - it is oval racing.
That is why a 50 year old[!!!] is still able to be a championship contender.

All the cars in NASCAR are equal. The driver is the only meaningful difference.

So have you read any of the Schumacher comeback threads around here?


F1 cars are at the forefront of applied science such as the designers inventing the uses of materials that can used to manufacture the cars, they were the first to use carbon fibre on cars for example and the level of safety through the crash structure.

Then there are other ways that f1 technology leads the auto industry: introduction of paddle handles to change gears, the unique designs in gearbox internals and changes, refining the use of aero dynamics, leading in the reduction of the CoD - brilliant engineers such as Colin Chapman, Gordon Murray and Adrian Newey.

The power to weight ratio of an f1 car is superior to that of any other racing car and the ability to drive that car competitively quick is only the domain of a very select few drivers.

Then there is the complex functions of the f1 steering wheel, where a driver is required to alter settings for engine management and car balance for example for different corners on every lap.

F1 technology leads the auto industry? Hybrids have been made long before KERS came about. And what useful application is there for a pnumatic valve system?

You want power to weight ratio?

750hp/605kg=1.23hp/kg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3705907495_befa7aa385.jpg

800hp/545.5kg=1.46hp/kg
http://www.thunderbowlraceway.com/2007%20Photos/101307/saldana.jpg

7,000hp/1022.7kg=6.84hp/kg
http://image.automotive.com/f/techarticles/engine/9173641+pheader/113_0602_01_z+top_fuel_teardown+launch.jpg

I can't name a series that allows fuel injection and doesn't allow engine mapping changes on the steering wheel.

[Saint Devote]

All the cars in NASCAR are equal. The driver is the only meaningful difference.

So have you read any of the Schumacher comeback threads around here?



F1 technology leads the auto industry? Hybrids have been made long before KERS came about. And what useful application is there for a pnumatic valve system?

You want power to weight ratio?

750hp/605kg=1.23hp/kg
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3427/3705907495_befa7aa385.jpg

800hp/545.5kg=1.46hp/kg
http://www.thunderbowlraceway.com/2007%20Photos/101307/saldana.jpg

7,000hp/1022.7kg=6.84hp/kg
http://image.automotive.com/f/techarticles/engine/9173641+pheader/113_0602_01_z+top_fuel_teardown+launch.jpg

I can't name a series that allows fuel injection and doesn't allow engine mapping changes on the steering wheel.

Your "reply" is quite remarkable.........

[Saint Devote]

It is evident that you have no answers - only jibes.

[nigelred5]

Nigel, do you remember the woman that came to the CCWS (I think), or maybe it was the IRL board, about three years ago? Some guy was hound dogging her daughter. And she was trying to see what was true and what was fantasy. He had stories of being a former F1, Champ Car and NASCAR driver. He knew Schumacher, Roger Penske (I think he had a test contract with Penske and Ferrari at the same time) and the Andrettis. Remember her at all? It was funny and kind of pitiful at the same time.

To have all of this deep and comparative knowledge of different formulas, this Saint Devote fellow would have to be pretty good racing buddies with that international man of mystery, doncha think? ;)

"Facts, by gum, by gosh. I'm giving you people facts and you won't accept the truth!!! You people can't handle the truth!"

If he can deliver that line as well as Jack Nicholson in "A Few Good Men", I'm going to ask Mark to add reputation points to this board so I can give this character some rep. It's the true characters who have made this board so much fun over the years. :D


lol, yeah, I remember her!

[nigelred5]

Kimi Räikkönen just drove the Neste Rally Finland. Well, I don't know if you've seen any rallying but no nancy-boy will do that, drive over 100mph on narrow gravel roads between trees, trusting only the co-drivers notes. F1 is the pinnacle of open-wheel Formula type racing and I'm sure you know that as well if you leave your national feeling aside for a moment. Indycar racing was great in the 90's and I loved following it, but we know how it is now.


Yeah, I know and follow rallying a bit. I"ve been to a few rallys in Pennsylvania and New Hampshire and I went to pikes peak one year. Not sure who are crazier, the drivers or the idiots that stand on the corners awaiting a gravel shower every time a car goes by. I often question whether it is a general lack of good sense and questionable mental health or an overabundance of testosterone that makes a good rally driver.


I still find it humorous that an F1 team focused on a nationalist effort is met with constant criticism and cries of racism because they want a driver from a certain nation, and yet the Olympics are openly celebrated as a competition between nations.

Maybe all the the teams in England are afraid someone's going to let the cat out of the bag and find that F1 cars CAN be built outside of their shores successfully for a fraction of the cost. To be honest, teams have done it for years. Is that last second, one hardly noticeable to the common F1 fan, worth 200 million?
It sucks they backed off on the severe budget constraints. I was dying to see what McLaren can do with 60 million vs what a team like STR or Renault can do with the same money.

[DexDexter]

Yeah, I know and follow rallying a bit. I"ve been to a few rallys in Pennsylvania and New Hampshire and I went to pikes peak one year. Not sure who are crazier, the drivers or the idiots that stand on the corners awaiting a gravel shower every time a car goes by. I often question whether it is a general lack of good sense and questionable mental health or an overabundance of testosterone that makes a good rally driver.

I still find it humorous that an F1 team focused on a nationalist effort is met with constant criticism and cries of racism because they want a driver from a certain nation, and yet the Olympics are openly celebrated as a competition between nations.


I think USF1 should definitely have two American drivers, nothing wrong with that. Lets hope that they beat the odds and are at least a little bit competitive.

[ShiftingGears]

All the cars in NASCAR are equal. The driver is the only meaningful difference.


Not at all.