Why a pitlane limiter?

[Mad_Hatter]

Honest and perhaps naive question.


Why not leave it to the drivers?

[Wade91]

the pit road limiter makes it easyer, i think nascar should to do it also

[Mad_Hatter]

Exactly. Should it be easier though?

[Wade91]

well, i think its good that pit road peniltys dont play a big role in the out come of the races

[garyshell]

Honest and perhaps naive question.


Why not leave it to the drivers?


Very simple: SAFETY.

Gary

[Lousada]

Do these cars even have a speed-o-meter? In Nascar they don't.

[EagleEye]

Do these cars even have a speed-o-meter? In Nascar they don't.

These car's have full data systems recording everything the driver, engine or chassis does. Speed can be displayed on the dash, though they usually opt for time and split times.

NASCAR can not use data systems during race weekends, but test with it.

The pit speed limit has been used to ensure all cars were running the same speed down pitlane. A big safety factor. The driver still has to apply the button, and get it slowed down between the cones.

NASCAR is scared of any electronics. One year at Long Beach, several Ford teams were accused of using the pit speed limiter on the track, to prevent wheelspin...ala traction control. CART mandated a download of the fastest cars from each session that weekend, with set parameters to be watched. NASCAR could do the same, but my God they still have carbs!!

Champcar went to a two stage pit speed limiter after the Zanardi accident.

[Mad_Hatter]

No, I completely understand having a pitlane speed limit, but why the limiter?

[garyshell]

No, I completely understand having a pitlane speed limit, but why the limiter?

My answer still remains: safety. Why the NASCAR folks are so stupid and leave the safety of those in the pit lane to chance is beyond me. A limiter takes out the element of chance. I am glad CART, CC and the IRL all choose safety.

Gary

[Mad_Hatter]

My answer still remains: safety. Why the NASCAR folks are so stupid and leave the safety of those in the pit lane to chance is beyond me. A limiter takes out the element of chance. I am glad CART, CC and the IRL all choose safety.

Gary


How is it safer?


The only scenario I can think of is if a driver loses consciousness. Are there more?

[Easy Drifter]

You are coming into the pits from upwards of 200 mph. It is exremely difficult to tell how fast you are going. So if one driver slows drastically more than another there is a far greater chance of an accident.
The taxi cabs nail someone, usually more than one, every race for speeding in or out of the pits. I have also seen a few accidents and several near misses because of no limiters.
You will also note that every Indy race someone misses their marks in the pits and that is with limiters.

[EagleEye]

How is it safer?


The only scenario I can think of is if a driver loses consciousness. Are there more?

The pedals are extremely sensitive. They like you to be full on or off, not half throttle or so which you would need in order to try and hold a steady speed. The drivers push a button that limits the speed (cutting spark and power to the engine, among other things) and they can put their foot down at full throttle.

[Mad_Hatter]

Fair enough.

[Marbles]

The irony of the limiter for me is that there seem to be more incidents with it than there were without it. It's almost as if some drivers feel that once they press the button that there is no need for any other discretion regarding safety when in pit lane. Watching some races from the pre-limiter days, the drivers seem to be much more wary of putting a foot wrong.

If the series organizers really wanted to improve pit safety than there would be zero tolerance for incidents on pit row. If you hit a crew member or have an mishap of any kind your car gets parked. Simple as that.

That might straighten out a few drivers.

But that might mess up the race... or upset the fans.

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

Most accidents in the pit lane happen during refueling...getting rid of that will, if nothing else, remove the element of danger for mechanics and drivers alike.

It will sadly probably ruin many other elements of the sport...but at least it will be safer. *Ponders whether this is a good thing*

[BoilerIMS]

I agree entirely with the safety aspect of the pit limiter, BUT...

The pit limiter keeps the action on the track rather than through incidental pit penalties. How many times do we denigrate the F1 "pass in the pits" (okay, okay, that has very little to do with the limiter) and insist on the main action happening on the race track? I would argue the same for any series: make the slow roll down pitlane as unimportant as possible and make the on-track action as important as possible.

[Jon 'Massa' Beagles]

Does the pitlane not count as part of the track? :dozey: ;)

You could go entirely the other way...refuelling is potentially going anyway. How about no limit, but the pit crews have to stay inside their garage until the car comes into it. Then they can work on it, send it back out, and it can go straight up to speed again.

Completely unrealistic, but imagine the cars screeching in and braking from 200mph to a stop, then turning into the garage to be sorted out, turned around and then released. Passing in the pits made a reality! :p

[Easy Drifter]

Jon: You clearly have never watched an Indy car race. There are no garages to turn into. There are just pit 'stalls'. Further in most cases everyone, or almost all, come in together.
No refueling?????? Just how big a tank would be required to hold enough Ethanol for a 500 mile race? To be safe probably close to 200 US gallons. Your mileage on Ethanol is far less than on gas.
On methanol we figured consumption was about 40% greater than gas the way we set up our injectors and ethanol is similar.

[Wade91]

The irony of the limiter for me is that there seem to be more incidents with it than there were without it. It's almost as if some drivers feel that once they press the button that there is no need for any other discretion regarding safety when in pit lane. Watching some races from the pre-limiter days, the drivers seem to be much more wary of putting a foot wrong.

If the series organizers really wanted to improve pit safety than there would be zero tolerance for incidents on pit row. If you hit a crew member or have an mishap of any kind your car gets parked. Simple as that.

That might straighten out a few drivers.

But that might mess up the race... or upset the fans.
no driver ever intenionaly hits a crew member its always by accadent, there for, a driver should not be penilized for it

[grungex]

Honest and perhaps naive question.


Why not leave it to the drivers?

Ask Juan Pablo Montoya.


'Nuff said.

[Easy Drifter]

Drivers can and do get penalized for causing accidents on the track. Why should the pits be any different?
There is also one certain driver who has probably had 3 times more pit incidents in the past 3 years than any other. So far no penalties I can remember but it is about time there was one.
No names but I expect most regulars know who I mean.

[Wade91]

Drivers can and do get penalized for causing accidents on the track. Why should the pits be any different?
There is also one certain driver who has probably had 3 times more pit incidents in the past 3 years than any other. So far no penalties I can remember but it is about time there was one.
No names but I expect most regulars know who I mean.
a driver is only peilized for a on-track accident if they did it intenionaly

[garyshell]

a driver is only peilized for a on-track accident if they did it intenionaly


Or avoidable contact.

Gary

[Chamoo]

Drivers can and do get penalized for causing accidents on the track. Why should the pits be any different?
There is also one certain driver who has probably had 3 times more pit incidents in the past 3 years than any other. So far no penalties I can remember but it is about time there was one.
No names but I expect most regulars know who I mean.

There was a driver penalized for dangerous driving in pit road at Watkins Glen in 2008. I believe this is the driver your talking about?

[V12]

It's easy (for me anyway!) to forget that F1 never had a pit lane speed limit until after Imola 1994, I remember some early F1 races I watched as a kid seeing the likes of Mansell and Senna come storming out in/out of the pits on full throttle, getting it slowed down in time then screeching out again, was a great sight, but a car doing in the region of 150mph with pit crews standing unprotected only inches away was probably never going to be sustainable, and obviously after Imola (although the Alboreto wheel incident rather than Senna/Ratzenberger) saw pit lane speed limiters introduced for the next round in Monaco.

I actually remember that race when the first (televised) pit stop was made in that race, and Murray Walker screaming "AND HE'S GOT A PROBLEM!!!" as the car left the pits and crawled down pit lane, before reminding himself of the Indy-style speed limit that was introduced :)

[champcarray]

Does anyone know when the pit lane speed limits were introduced? I remember the unrestricted speeds many years ago, but don't remember when they finally slowed 'em down.

[nigelred5]

to my recollection, in F1- '94 after Imola as V12 stated, Indycars, gawd, I seem to remember it was well before that.

[Mad_Hatter]

double post

[Mad_Hatter]

I think I remember some early 90s Indy with no speed limit.




I actually remember that race when the first (televised) pit stop was made in that race, and Murray Walker screaming "AND HE'S GOT A PROBLEM!!!" as the car left the pits and crawled down pit lane

:laugh:

[Easy Drifter]

I was in F1 pits as a tech inspector a few time and ditto for a couple of Indy car races before speed limits. It was scary but everybody was well aware of the cars, except for some of the safety marshalls. They came the closest to being hit.
I also spent several years in FA as a mechanic and somehow you got so you knew when a car was coming even with your back turned. We didn't normally have stops during a race, unless it rained, but cars were in and out during practice and qualifying. Everybody knew enough to look before they moved.
That said it was a recipe for a disaster and sooner or later there would have been one. There were several incidents over the years in various classes.

[PA Rick]

I also spent several years in FA as a mechanic and somehow you got so you knew when a car was coming even with your back turned. .

That's because the horn blew when a car entered the pits. :)

[Easy Drifter]

Not everywhere was there a horn and even then you often couldn't hear it.
It was probably more the engine note.
IF anyone was caught unawares it was the pit marshalls and the odd newcomer.
I don't know about you but I spent more than 20 years in pit lanes all over NA. with just about every class of racing including Can AM, F1, Indy cars, F5000, FB/Atlantic and assorted other race cars.
Your ears got attuned to the on track/off track engine sounds.

[Marbles]

no driver ever intenionaly hits a crew member its always by accadent, there for, a driver should not be penilized for it

I'm going to respond to this. Hang on a second while I gather myself up...

Unfortunately for the drivers, Indycar is a team sport. So whether the pilot intentionally drove over the front tire changer*... or not, severe penalties are required. Imagine the caution that would be exercised entering the pits if a driver new an incident on pit row would end his race.

Drive over an air hose and you get a drive through (does that rule still exist?). Drive over a pit crew members head (it's happened) and... uhm... well... try to be more careful next time will ya.

It will take a fatality and half a pit crew mowed down for the series to grow some teeth with regards to pit lane mayhem.

*In the event that a driver intentionally drives over a pit crew member, as an additional punishment, I think the local authorities should be contacted.

[Wade91]

I'm going to respond to this. Hang on a second while I gather myself up...

Unfortunately for the drivers, Indycar is a team sport. So whether the pilot intentionally drove over the front tire changer*... or not, severe penalties are required. Imagine the caution that would be exercised entering the pits if a driver new an incident on pit row would end his race.

Drive over an air hose and you get a drive through (does that rule still exist?). Drive over a pit crew members head (it's happened) and... uhm... well... try to be more careful next time will ya.

It will take a fatality and half a pit crew mowed down for the series to grow some teeth with regards to pit lane mayhem.

*In the event that a driver intentionally drives over a pit crew member, as an additional punishment, I think the local authorities should be contacted.
well, i could understand a drive though penilty for hitting a crew member, but to end a drivers race seems to servear, and it would be a penilty for the whole team including the crew member that got hit :s