Bloody Ken's Congestion Charge

[Rollo]

Yes people of London, Ken "I can't think of any actual method of fixing or improving the situation so I'll tax the living snot out of you" Livingston's extra area of the Congestion Charge comes into effect today.

Now whilst I can understand his reasons for doing so, this is no longer looking like a thinkly veiled attempt to fleece the good and fair people of London, it now looks like a deliberate and overt case of shaking the winkel.

It would be a great idea if the real reason was to reduce pollution, and get congestion off the roads. But the sad fact is that it's just another way of ripping Joe Public off, and stealing our hard earned cash. Blair and his elite cabinet will not in any way be effected by this, because they get driven around as VIP's and any costs acrued is taken out of tax payers money. One just wonders how these numpty's ever got into parliament, thank God I didn't vote for the corrupt MP's we currently have.

Grrrr.

[BDunnell]

Yes people of London, Ken "I can't think of any actual method of fixing or improving the situation so I'll tax the living snot out of you" Livingston's extra area of the Congestion Charge comes into effect today.

Now whilst I can understand his reasons for doing so, this is no longer looking like a thinkly veiled attempt to fleece the good and fair people of London, it now looks like a deliberate and overt case of shaking the winkel.

It would be a great idea if the real reason was to reduce pollution, and get congestion off the roads. But the sad fact is that it's just another way of ripping Joe Public off, and stealing our hard earned cash. Blair and his elite cabinet will not in any way be effected by this, because they get driven around as VIP's and any costs acrued is taken out of tax payers money. One just wonders how these numpty's ever got into parliament, thank God I didn't vote for the corrupt MP's we currently have.

Grrrr.

Is it possible for a single post to contain more ill-informed generalisations than that?

While I have my doubts as to the merits of extending the CC zone at the present time, I don't think there is any actual evidence for your assertion that it has only been done to rip (and piss) people off. There is a genuine belief that it will cut congestion. Whether that's right or not, I doubt, but even so it's worth pointing out that politicians don't just do things to annoy the electorate, no matter whether those things are stupid and misguided. You may have this stupid view that all politicians are corrupt, but it's not true. The congestion charge decision also has nothing to do with MPs, being a London Assembly matter.

[Mark]

The extension of the congestion charge may well see a traffic increase in the old congestion charge area. Because residents of the new extended area will get a 90% discount, meaning it doesn't cost them anything extra to drive into central London now, whereas it used to cost them £8

[BDunnell]

The extension of the congestion charge may well see a traffic increase in the old congestion charge area. Because residents of the new extended area will get a 90% discount, meaning it doesn't cost them anything extra to drive into central London now, whereas it used to cost them £8

Indeed. In addition, when the CC was first implemented, no matter what some people might say, there was a definite improvement in public transport provision because extra buses suddenly came 'on stream' on major routes. As far as I'm aware, no such provision has been made this time, which makes the whole thing harder to justify. I don't buy into the 'motorist as victim' mentality that one hears an awful lot about, but there are valid reasons to criticise this extension of the zone.

[Kneeslider]

In my somewhat limited experience of politicians, all that they seem to be interested in once elected is to have some 'legacy' by which they put into place some structure, law, or policy which has a long lasting effect.

You could argue that the purpose of politics is to make better the lives the electorate. However the congestion charge is merely a sop to the environmental lobby to make the car (which is by quite some distance the cheapest, most cost effective and convenient form of transport) less attractive when compared to inefficient, unplesant and expensive public transport. The population are being 'sold' a tax under the false pretences of the benefits of clearer roads, but you have to cough up and travel on these roads to gain any benefit from the tax!

It is no coincidence that the congestion charge as a concept has originated in London; here the public transport is better (relative term) than in the rest of the country, and the roads are more clogged here than in other places, as a consequence, car ownership and miles driven per head of the populaton, are lower, I would also estimate that the numbers of 'Yoghurt Knitting Guardian Readers' is highest here too, so the democratic process has more chance of succeeding when it comes to implementing the policy of road charging here than anywhere else in the country.

I would love to hear from anyone actually living in London about their experiences, it's about 5 years since I lived there.

There are several problems however:-

1, Once in place, you can never go back to the previous state of affairs, where you could drive into London free of charge, so inevitably there will be a sense of 'Big Brother' in the more paranoid sections of the population.

2, The people who the congestion charge is going to hit hardest are those at the bottom of the economic scale.

3, Businesses will just factor the costs in, and pass them onto their clients, this is the way business works, knowlege which is worryingly lacking in most politicians.

4, The politicians who are so keen on this system won't be directly affected by it's consequences, no wonder they are keen on it.

5, Function creep. How long before all the area within the M25 is coverd by this? And it wasn't that long ago that it started out at £5, now it is £8 and it will soon be £10. Having everything in place merely makes it easier to extort whatever money you like from people, the Congestion Charge is a monopoly remember?

I am Kneeslider, and I am becoming, by degrees an Anarchist. At least I can still ride my bike there without having to cough up my £8 for Ken, but for how much longer?

[fly_ac]

At least in my country we do not have this Congestion Charge. I thought that congestion was a problem in my country, but seeing what is happening in other countries, we have a walk in the park. Well at least for now. :)

[tintin]

I live in London, although outside the congestion charge zone.
However I work inside the zone.

But congestion charging hasn't affected me at all - because charge or no charge, I would never dream of driving into work. It would just take too long.

When I work late enough to qualify for a chauffeur-driven car home, the journey time is about 35 minutes. That's at 1am when there's less traffic on the roads.

I would guess that at 9am it would take closer to an hour. Why would I do that when I can get on a train and have a journey time of just over 20 minutes (30 if you include the walk at each end of the journey)?

Even by bus the journey is only 45 minutes. Longer than the train, but at only £1 each way it's also less than half the price if you travel infrequently.

The centre of London is only slightly less congested than it was five years ago - but five years ago congestion was getting worse every year. The CC does at least seem to have prevented the number of cars on London's roads from rising at all.

[BDunnell]

I live in London, although outside the congestion charge zone.
However I work inside the zone.

But congestion charging hasn't affected me at all - because charge or no charge, I would never dream of driving into work. It would just take too long.

When I work late enough to qualify for a chauffeur-driven car home, the journey time is about 35 minutes. That's at 1am when there's less traffic on the roads.

I would guess that at 9am it would take closer to an hour. Why would I do that when I can get on a train and have a journey time of just over 20 minutes (30 if you include the walk at each end of the journey)?

Even by bus the journey is only 45 minutes. Longer than the train, but at only £1 each way it's also less than half the price if you travel infrequently.

The centre of London is only slightly less congested than it was five years ago - but five years ago congestion was getting worse every year. The CC does at least seem to have prevented the number of cars on London's roads from rising at all.

Very good points, all of them. I fail to see why some people persist in thinking that public transport is somehow unusable. It may have its problems, but when it works it fulfils its function.

[Mark]

It all goes wrong when the politicians, used to the public transport available in London, fall under the misaprehension that everywhere in the UK is similarly served.

[CarlMetro]

The expansion of the CC this morning is supposed to create a 15% reduction in the number of private vehicles on the roads within the zone. So, if you said that 1,000,000 people travel into London buy car every day, the already implemented CC scheme should see 150,000 less cars on the road. Now if we say that 5% of those people find a way to work from home instead of travelling into an office on a daily basis, we should still expect an extra 100,000 people onto the already over-stretched and under-funded public transport system.

[BDunnell]

It all goes wrong when the politicians, used to the public transport available in London, fall under the misaprehension that everywhere in the UK is similarly served.

I am sure that a lot of MPs from around the country are perfectly adept at pointing out where their local public transport networks are lacking. You are confusing politicians in general with the Government.

In reality, the major cities that I know particularly well, Norwich and Sheffield, are perfectly adequately served by public transport. It certainly met my needs very well in both those places. They may not have the service levels that you get in London, but I don't think this should be expected given the fact that they are far smaller cities.

[GARYGAZZA]

If you think Ken Livingstones congestion charges are a rip off the try box junctions!!Igot a lovely photo of me in a box junction on East India Dock Road with its junction with Crispen Street.Conway van in front and a gap in front of that you could get a bus in.Yes I know I should of waited but I didnt think that van was not going to keep up with the flow of traffic.Any if you pay the fine within 28 days you get a discount so instead of paying£150 you ONLY PAY £100.Imagine how much that gready git gets from just that junction.Thats enough to put you off driving in London

[raphael123]

I think the people critizising the government on this, have been well put in their place by people like tintin. I think it also shows a lack of understand of the problems we are facing.

Now with this road tax, even though I think it's the right way forward, I think it has to be amended in order to make sure the poor people are not disadvantaged to a greater extent than those who would simply be able to afford to pay the road tax without so much as sweating!

I actually work in a Local Council (Swansea), within the Planning department, and while getting to and from work (I only live 5m outside the city centre) could sometimes take up to 1hr, and I don't think many people would consider Swansea a major city!! However recently a one way system within the city centre has been implemented, and the maximum time it's taken me since has been 30min!! The next process is improving the public transport into town. I would genuinely be interested in using it rather than driving, but it works out as twice the price as what I pay on fuel/tax etc, plus the inconvenience, and I would lose so much flexi time it's simply not worth it, especially as traffic congestion is nowadays not too bad at all. However there is a metro system being put in place as we speak, and hopefully it will only be a 20min journey into town.

Anyway, though this one way system hasn't actually cut the number of cars, it has cut down on the congestion which is what the CONGESTION CHARGE is about, but this isn't environmentally friendly. I think the next step is to make this metro sytem cheap, and viable for people to actually want to use it, rather than stick to the car. If I got a free ticket as a member of the council, I would be prepared to use it, or even if it saved me money generally I would too.

[Mark]

It can work, if the pricing is done approparitely. However given the cost of implementing the system and administering it, there is zero chance that the price of travel won't go up for everyone.

[acorn]

Anyway, though this one way system hasn't actually cut the number of cars, it has cut down on the congestion which is what the CONGESTION CHARGE is about, but this isn't environmentally friendly. I think the next step is to make this metro sytem cheap, and viable for people to actually want to use it, rather than stick to the car. If I got a free ticket as a member of the council, I would be prepared to use it, or even if it saved me money generally I would too.

but it is more environmentally friendly than the obviosly badly planned road system that was in place before. free flowing traffic(30min journey) rather than stationery or slow moving traffic(ihr journey) means less pollution.

why should council workers get cheap travel. why not move the offices to the outskirts of the city so that journies into the city centre aren't required?

[BDunnell]

I think the next step is to make this metro sytem cheap, and viable for people to actually want to use it, rather than stick to the car. If I got a free ticket as a member of the council, I would be prepared to use it, or even if it saved me money generally I would too.

I don't think giving Council employees cheap tickets would be very encouraging to everybody else.

[raphael123]

True the council could be moved to the outskirts. As a planner though it is generally encouraged to make sure the city centre are kept vibrant with the large proportion of employment kept within the city centre rather than dispersing to outskirts of city centres.

Mark, your right, implementing such a system would cost a lot of money. However if congestion continues to get worse with nothing being done, the cost of congestion is going to be £30bn - a sum the implementation of this new road tax system won't reach. Manchester predict the lose of 30,000 jobs if nothing changes. Something needs to be done, and compromises are going to have to be made. But it should be something that doesn't compromise the poorer communities more so than the rich communities, though that may be inevitable.

Regarding me saying council workers should get cheaper bus tickets. I guess this was silly of me to say, so I do take it back :) However...lol...if the council runs its own bus service, and it employs 15,000 people within the city centre, maybe it should be an incentive for them to cut congestion by offering some kind of incentive for it's employees to use public transport. The same could apply to large private companies who employ a high number of people within a city centre. They would have a duty to help ease congestion (companies who would need to contribute could be selected via the number of employees they have, plus the profit margin). However this isn't always possible, I know that in Swansea the company FIRST run the buses, however each city is different, as Cardiff is run by it's local authority. Just a thought, but I'm sure someone can take it apart as I just typed this up as I was thinking.

[BDunnell]

True the council could be moved to the outskirts. As a planner though it is generally encouraged to make sure the city centre are kept vibrant with the large proportion of employment kept within the city centre rather than dispersing to outskirts of city centres.

Mark, your right, implementing such a system would cost a lot of money. However if congestion continues to get worse with nothing being done, the cost of congestion is going to be £30bn - a sum the implementation of this new road tax system won't reach. Manchester predict the lose of 30,000 jobs if nothing changes. Something needs to be done, and compromises are going to have to be made. But it should be something that doesn't compromise the poorer communities more so than the rich communities, though that may be inevitable.

Regarding me saying council workers should get cheaper bus tickets. I guess this was silly of me to say, so I do take it back :) However...lol...if the council runs its own bus service, and it employs 15,000 people within the city centre, maybe it should be an incentive for them to cut congestion by offering some kind of incentive for it's employees to use public transport. The same could apply to large private companies who employ a high number of people within a city centre. They would have a duty to help ease congestion (companies who would need to contribute could be selected via the number of employees they have, plus the profit margin). However this isn't always possible, I know that in Swansea the company FIRST run the buses, however each city is different, as Cardiff is run by it's local authority. Just a thought, but I'm sure someone can take it apart as I just typed this up as I was thinking.

I agree with your general thinking, especially your view that steps need to be taken now. Whatever your view on global warming, congestion in many cities is getting worse and needs to be curbed for purely practical reasons that better traffic management can't deal with on its own.

There is one other thing that I think needs mentioning. It has been suggested that there could be tax breaks or similar incentives for companies and individuals who work from home and don't need to take a journey to their workplace. If this could be done in a way that isn't easy to cheat, I'm all for it. Technology should make working from home increasingly easy for many people.

[raphael123]

I agree with your general thinking, especially your view that steps need to be taken now. Whatever your view on global warming, congestion in many cities is getting worse and needs to be curbed for purely practical reasons that better traffic management can't deal with on its own.

There is one other thing that I think needs mentioning. It has been suggested that there could be tax breaks or similar incentives for companies and individuals who work from home and don't need to take a journey to their workplace. If this could be done in a way that isn't easy to cheat, I'm all for it. Technology should make working from home increasingly easy for many people.


Must be honest working from home is suitable when incentives are put your way. I know my job, whether I do the work in 1 day, or 2 days, it won't really matter, it doesn't cost me anything, and I must be honest, I take the 2 days when I want to. However if money was at stake, or some sort of incentive, I would actually try and complete my workload in 1 day. But that's the only way it would work I think. Otherwise people will take it easy when working from home, like I have.

So maybe working from home isn't suitable for people working in local authority of under the government such as the dvla etc

[BDunnell]

Yes, there are certainly plenty of jobs that couldn't be done from home, but I reckon that more people could manage it than we currently think.

I probably don't work as efficiently at home as I do at work, because of distractions such as Diagnosis Murder and Murder She Wrote, but given time I'm sure I'd be able to start being less easily diverted.

Mind you, given that I use the train to get to work, this is all rather beside the point!

[Mark]

Mind you, given that I use the train to get to work, this is all rather beside the point!

But there is another point, after all, many of the trains are congested too.

[janneppi]

I probably don't work as efficiently at home as I do at work, because of distractions such as Diagnosis Murder and Murder She Wrote, but given time I'm sure I'd be able to start being less easily diverted.

Do you live in Finland? :p :

[BDunnell]

But there is another point, after all, many of the trains are congested too.

Not on my journey. Travelling out of London at the morning rush hour, and back in during the evening one, isn't a hardship at all.