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Ranger
30th July 2009, 14:16
Well... I'm impatient.

This grand prix will already be a new record breaker.

It eclipses the record set at Indy 2006 for the highest number of combined wins through the field:

Schumacher 91
Alonso 21
Raikkonen 17
**Massa 11 (absent, not counted)
Hamilton 10
Barrichello 9
Button 7
Fisichella 3
Vettel 3
Trulli 1
Kubica 1
Kovalainen 1
Webber 1

164 wins in total, 4 World Champions with 11 titles between them.

Valve Bounce
30th July 2009, 14:51
Well... I'm impatient.

This grand prix will already be a new record breaker.

It eclipses the record set at Indy 2006 for the highest number of combined wins through the field:

Schumacher 91
Alonso 21
Raikkonen 17
**Massa 11 (absent, not counted)
Hamilton 10
Barrichello 9
Button 7
Fisichella 3
Vettel 3
Trulli 1
Kubica 1
Kovalainen 1
Webber 1

164 wins in total, 4 World Champions with 11 titles between them.

Don't you have any homework??

F1boat
31st July 2009, 08:00
Can't wait for the race myself. My dream is that MS will do some magic and win, but realistically IMO McLaren will be even stronger than in Hungary, Brawn will be a bit better and Red Bull a bit worse.

Ari
31st July 2009, 10:48
The rest of the year is going to be huge.

I have mates who have no interest in F1 at all who are looking forward to Valencia!!! wtf.......

christophulus
31st July 2009, 10:49
I still can't see this being anything other than a procession like last year.

McLaren are strong, as are Red Bull. Ferrari still have a chance but KERS will be less useful off the start. I reckon Williams might go well and Brawn will be completely reliant on it being hot - I just don't think they have the resources to fix their car before Valencia.

555-04Q2
31st July 2009, 11:46
Well... I'm impatient.

This grand prix will already be a new record breaker.

It eclipses the record set at Indy 2006 for the highest number of combined wins through the field:

Schumacher 91
Alonso 21
Raikkonen 17
**Massa 11 (absent, not counted)
Hamilton 10
Barrichello 9
Button 7
Fisichella 3
Vettel 3
Trulli 1
Kubica 1
Kovalainen 1
Webber 1

164 wins in total, 4 World Champions with 11 titles between them.

Only if MS makes it to the starting grid.

There's an amazing stat in there too:

MS 91 wins, the rest mentioned including Massa = 85 wins. Wow!

Sonic
31st July 2009, 15:17
I'm hoping FI can finally get a point or two - although their pace at hungary was off the boil compared to recent outings

ioan
19th August 2009, 10:40
Time to resurrect this one! :D

Donney
19th August 2009, 11:08
And no Schumacher to break any records.

christophulus
19th August 2009, 13:53
Few things to keep an eye on, aside from Badoer's debut.

Kovalainen has been given a substantial hint that he needs to do well in the last part of the year to keep his seat for 2010 - especially now McLaren has a decent car. McLaren are adamant they've not spoken to anyone else about the seat yet but Kovalainen needs a good performance.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77771

Force India are bringing an enormous upgrade along, and they've been showing improved pace recently anyway. Points are on the cards maybe?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/77751

Plus Brawn need a good performance to have any hope of holding the championship lead. The weather for Valencia? 30C+ every day...

ShiftingGears
19th August 2009, 13:58
Hopefully Webber can reel in Button by a few more points in this race.

Sonic
19th August 2009, 15:43
For the good of the Championship I'd like one more bad race for the Brawn's, but I expect that their dreadful form simply can't continue.

I'm also getting really impatient for Williams first podium.

Donney
19th August 2009, 18:24
I'll be happy if it is not a parade, whatever the final result.

gloomyDAY
19th August 2009, 18:43
Valencia is so boring!

Wake me up when we're at Belgium.

F1boat
19th August 2009, 19:13
I will be thrilled if Brawn returns like phoenix and Button wins his 7th win! But I predict Lewis to get victory number two in the bag.

Sonic
19th August 2009, 19:30
Valencia is so boring!

Wake me up when we're at Belgium.

Now now. We've only had a single GP which, ok, was more boring than a cricket game on a rainy day, but I'm going to withold my opinion until after this race.

Perhaps KERS will make things a bit more interesting....

F1boat
19th August 2009, 21:56
I liked the Valencia GP a lot... the track is extremely beautiful IMO and last year for me the race was tense, although without much overtaking.

gloomyDAY
19th August 2009, 23:34
I liked the Valencia GP a lot... the track is extremely beautiful IMO and last year for me the race was tense, although without much overtaking.For real? I loved the layout of the track & the location.

The racing was dull. I woke up at 5am to fall asleep less than 45 minutes later. It's not usual that I go back to bed after waking up early for a race, but Sleepencia just rocked me gently to sleep.

Saint Devote
20th August 2009, 01:30
I liked the Valencia GP a lot... the track is extremely beautiful IMO and last year for me the race was tense, although without much overtaking.

I agree with you.

I was actually rather taken aback when I read all the criticism that was unleashed by the media.

And anyway, f1 has never been about frantic overtaking. I totally dislike the prevailing artificial state with refuelling pitstops - but those I am so pleased will end [I wish tyres would also be required to go the whole distance and that pitstops once again would only be for problems with thecar or the tyres] in Abu Dhabi [a race in another dratted dictatorship].

What is f1's fascination with places where human rights have no legal standing? Oh yes, its called money. Petro dollars, sent by the free nations.

ozrevhead
20th August 2009, 01:40
Havent been this excited for a race in Ages

Hopfully Mark and Red Bull can keep the momentum going

woody2goody
20th August 2009, 04:21
The circuit is decent, I like the location, it just needs a few more things that you can see on the TV, to dress it up a bit. That would help us to know which corner is which as it all looks very similar.

The first race was a bit uneventful, but I have a feeling this one should be ok, and that we'll get some overtaking. We have had decent amounts of overtaking this year in general.

F1boat
20th August 2009, 08:15
For real?

Yes! For overtaking is the 125 cc Moto GP...

ioan
21st August 2009, 14:06
Classy message to Felipe on Rubens' helmet! :up: :up: :up:

F1boat
21st August 2009, 14:19
Classy message to Felipe on Rubens' helmet! :up: :up: :up:

Yes, it is touching...

callum122
21st August 2009, 14:41
end of practice 1, Luca Badoer 1+ second from the man in 19th......

ioan
21st August 2009, 14:43
Man there is action in this FP2!
Are they all set to run a full race today or what?

ioan
21st August 2009, 15:05
What's the deal with that black protection suit Button is wearing?

christophulus
21st August 2009, 15:12
And Alonso almost flipping Heidfeld's car :eek:

ioan
21st August 2009, 15:12
Alonso just proves that being fast isn't exactly the same with being smart! :\

ioan
21st August 2009, 15:14
At least he managed to make Schumi laugh!

Sonic
21st August 2009, 15:18
And I'm missing all the fun whilst at work.

Got near a tv at lunch and thought I'd check out the red button replay of FP1 but its not on! GRRRRRrrrrrr.

christophulus
21st August 2009, 15:32
Alonso fastest by about 0.7s, another super-low fuel pole is in order I reckon!

ioan
21st August 2009, 15:34
I think that the pit entry road is badly positioned in Valencia. Why didn't they make it a few meters outside the track and the racing line?

Dave B
21st August 2009, 15:36
Anyone care to bet against Alonso on the front row tomorrow with less fuel than a Zippo?

ioan
21st August 2009, 15:38
Anyone care to bet against Alonso on the front row tomorrow with less fuel than a Zippo?

Totally agree,it's his and Renault's usual strategy lately and was always the case in races run in Spain, for whatever reason.

Knock-on
21st August 2009, 15:40
Anyone care to bet against Alonso on the front row tomorrow with less fuel than a Zippo?

Renault have made a few mods for Valencia

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/41/116854192_df56bd2e63.jpg

Sleeper
21st August 2009, 17:06
Brawn look like the pace setters with Williams their nearest challengers.

ClarkFan
21st August 2009, 17:10
Brawn look like the pace setters with Williams their nearest challengers.
Wonder if this is a function of scrapping all their mid-season "improvements" and going back the early-2009 car?

If so, think of the implications for the Ongoing March of Progress! ;)

ClarkFan

Sonic
21st August 2009, 17:12
Nico is driving like a man who wants a McLaren contract....

Sonic
21st August 2009, 22:37
McLaren really pushing in the development race. A shortened wheelbase? Designed with the high speed tracks in mind apparently.

F1boat
21st August 2009, 22:40
Brawn look like the pace setters with Williams their nearest challengers.

IMO McLaren, not Williams...

ioan
21st August 2009, 23:34
McLaren really pushing in the development race. A shortened wheelbase? Designed with the high speed tracks in mind apparently.

More like with the twisty tracks in mind IMO.
A shorter wheel base does not help in fast corners, quite the opposite.

Also they ran out of spare parts after Lewis decided to remodel the nose of his car.

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 00:33
More like with the twisty tracks in mind IMO.
A shorter wheel base does not help in fast corners, quite the opposite.

Also they ran out of spare parts after Lewis decided to remodel the nose of his car.

Thats what I thought too! But its not what McLaren said;


we were running a shorter wheel-base version of the car with Lewis today, really something that we are looking for the higher speed circuits, probably frankly for the benefit of Spa and beyond.

But what do I know??

ioan
22nd August 2009, 00:38
Maybe they had weight balance problems and a shorter wheel base helps them ballance the car better for fast corners, after all they were already fast in Monaco and Hungary with the longer wheel base chassis.

As long as we don' know all the details we can only guess.

wedge
22nd August 2009, 01:14
Wonder if this is a function of scrapping all their mid-season "improvements" and going back the early-2009 car?

If so, think of the implications for the Ongoing March of Progress! ;)

ClarkFan

They brought new suspension and did back to back testing. They went quicker in FP2, RB and JB swapping set ups and coinciding with the increasing track temperature.

I'd rather wait about this time next week if their mods have worked or not at Spa and its micro-climate.

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 02:28
I think that the pit entry road is badly positioned in Valencia. Why didn't they make it a few meters outside the track and the racing line?

I do wonder though if it is more about the drivers taking an aggressive line into that final turn or the pit entry being badly positioned. Maybe to force drivers off that entry point they could extend the pit entry line up a bit further on the track, ensuring that cars take a slightly less aggressive line into the final turn

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 02:29
Nico is driving like a man who wants a McLaren contract....

...and will probably get it

Saint Devote
22nd August 2009, 03:20
...and will probably get it

If Rosberg heqds to Mclaren, he will get it alright - from Hamilton as the British driver demolishes another teammate backed by Mclaren.

Mclaren reminds me of Lotus in the 70's where the number one driver's teammate was viewed as a rules requirement, and sometimes even Ronnie Peterson was treated that way.

And if Whitmarsh declares that that is not the case, then he ought to be running for office.

Williams, if reports are correct, is set to end its Toyota dependence and at last free up the other Williams seat, by running a Renault engine, is a place that Rosberg ought to stay. And with Hulkenberg, he could be leaving at a time when Williams improves even further and he would be their main focus.

Saint Devote
22nd August 2009, 03:22
I know it is only the first practice sessions and Valencia is super hot - but it is just SUPERB!!!! :-] that Jenson is back at the sharp end!

Valve Bounce
22nd August 2009, 03:56
Thats what I thought too! But its not what McLaren said;



But what do I know??

Here you go: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v283/king-david/lightburn-zeta-1964-1.jpg

Now you know!!

Ari
22nd August 2009, 10:24
After a 'nothing' P1 and P2 it's finally time to get down to business.

Different drivers were on different tasks yesterday. If you have a look at RBR and fuel loads they were clearly on race strategy. Williams were on their normal show for sponsor strategy and the Maccas were just going out with all they had.

The track was certainly not ready to tell us anything about what we might see today. Remember kids it's a closed track and pretty much street circuit. Much rubbering is and has been required.

I would expect we will see some real pace in P3. Expect Ferrari to be out. Maccas to be at the bottom of the 10. Brawn and RBR at the pointy end and Toyota to surprise a few.

30 minutes to go before questions start to become answers.

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 10:27
...and will probably get it

I don't know if I can handle another of my faves joining macca! I felt dirty all the time JPM was there and I had to want a McLaren win ;)

Sleeper
22nd August 2009, 10:30
RBR dont sound to confident and Williams have been around the p4/5 spot for the last several races now.

DexDexter
22nd August 2009, 11:00
If Rosberg heqds to Mclaren, he will get it alright - from Hamilton as the British driver demolishes another teammate backed by Mclaren.

Mclaren reminds me of Lotus in the 70's where the number one driver's teammate was viewed as a rules requirement, and sometimes even Ronnie Peterson was treated that way.
.

You have a short memory, Mclaren along with Williams (when they had money) have traditionally wanted two of the best drivers they can get, even in the days of Häkkinen Coulthard took points away from him, at the same time certain Scuderia was built around one driver. Now they seem to favour Hamitlon, though. Heikki was asked just a minute ago whether they had the same car today. He said no.

Ari
22nd August 2009, 11:26
Anyone have a P3 stream?

ioan
22nd August 2009, 11:29
RedBull are going to regret giving up on those Ferrari engines.
Besides Kubica the RedBull drivers are the ones risking to run off the 8 allowed engines before the end of the season.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 11:43
This session is pretty much dead.
Who the heck had the idea to have red flagged sessions with the clock still running?!

Dave B
22nd August 2009, 11:54
5 minutes of playing dodge-the-oilslick, here we come!

Ranger
22nd August 2009, 11:54
RedBull are going to regret giving up on those Ferrari engines.
Besides Kubica the RedBull drivers are the ones risking to run off the 8 allowed engines before the end of the season.

If anything, Ferrari has been less reliable than Renault over the past 3 years. The blow-up is unfortunate, but **** happens.


This session is pretty much dead.
Who the heck had the idea to have red flagged sessions with the clock still running?!

That only happens in Saturday Practice.

Other events have to squeeze into the schedule.

Having said that, the session is now restarting.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 12:12
If anything, Ferrari has been less reliable than Renault over the past 3 years. The blow-up is unfortunate, but **** happens.


Remind me how many Ferrari engines blew up this year.
Vettel alone had at least 3 engines go this season and lost plenty of track time due to that.

Not to mention that the Renaults even if were somewhat reliable the previous two seasons were underpowered and butt slow.

Nikki Katz
22nd August 2009, 12:18
I know that we shouldn't really read too much into free practice as the Williams are usually fastest regardless of how competitive they actually are, and presumably Force India are doing the same today, but Badoer is really bad! I wasn't expecting him to be anywhere near Raikkonen's pace, but I wasn't expecting him to be over a second behind Alguersuari!

ioan
22nd August 2009, 12:23
...but Badoer is really bad! I wasn't expecting him to be anywhere near Raikkonen's pace, but I wasn't expecting him to be over a second behind Alguersuari!

The worse part of this is that it was obvious to anyone with a brain that this will happen, so I'm wondering who was the idiot within Ferrari who came up with this stupid decision. I'm betting on LdM being the one this time.

UltimateDanGTR
22nd August 2009, 12:26
so, who is gonna be Badoers replacement? :D

I mean i know its early but 1 second off a current rookie-come on? hopefully he will improve for his own sake, but if he doesnt then will ferrari really be patient enough to wait for massa to come back before they get rid of badoer? if not, surely they'd have to put someone in who has experience with a 2009 car, dare i say it, bourdais or piquet jnr?

ShiftingGears
22nd August 2009, 12:34
I'm betting on LdM being the one this time.

Yes, I think you are right there.

But it's about repaying loyalties more than anything else.

Most concerning for me will be his lack of actual racecraft and handling traffic.

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 12:35
3 seconds off the pace still!

Very, very poor. There is no other word for it.

The rookies came home in 10th place and 19th place both doing well (very well in Grosjean's case) in respect to their team mates, but Luca just plain sucks.

I said yesterday I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and wait till after the race to slate him ;) but without a miracle he's going to be stone dead last......

Please keep working on those neck muscles Shumi!

ioan
22nd August 2009, 13:13
Yes, I think you are right there.

But it's about repaying loyalties more than anything else.

Most concerning for me will be his lack of actual racecraft and handling traffic.

If they thought they will do him a favor they were very very wrong.
This move is bad for Ferrari and bad for Badoer.

Ranger
22nd August 2009, 13:27
Remind me how many Ferrari engines blew up this year.
Vettel alone had at least 3 engines go this season and lost plenty of track time due to that.

Let's see if Red Bull actually have to change the engine first.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 13:51
Let's see if Red Bull actually have to change the engine first.

Given how many parts it lost I doubt it is still usable!

ShiftingGears
22nd August 2009, 15:05
What happened with Red Bull's final runs? They could've squeezed another lap in for both drivers.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 15:05
Impressive showing by McLaren!
They are going to win at least one more race this season.

Good performance from Kimi even though the car isn't as fast as it should be. Ferrari should pull their hands from under their behinds and develop the car faster instead of making stupid driver choices.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 15:06
What happened with Red Bull's final runs? They could've squeezed another lap in for both drivers.

Obviously there was nothing to be gained (faster lap times) only to be lost (valuable fuel for the race).

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 15:08
Kovy! No! What a lap that was until he took too much kerb in the braking zone for the last turn.

christophulus
22nd August 2009, 15:13
Kovalainen is clearly trying to hold on to his seat for next year, and good on him :up:

Anyone predicting anything other than a McLaren 1-2 tomorrow? KERS off the start from the front row and they're gone.

UltimateDanGTR
22nd August 2009, 15:18
Macca are back alright. They can get a 1-2 tommorrow providing no mistakes are made, and they will get a good start with their kers, looks very good for them!

ioan
22nd August 2009, 15:19
Kovy! No! What a lap that was until he took too much kerb in the braking zone for the last turn.

He did great, but I doubt that the race outcome would be different if he started on pole.

We are looking to a McLaren 1-2 for tomorrow is no catastrophe strikes meanwhile.
And I have to say they are doing a fantastic job, hats off! :)

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 15:21
He did great, but I doubt that the race outcome would be different if he started on pole.
:)

Indeed. But if he wants to hold onto his ride he can do no better than hounding his team mate all the way to the flag.

veeten
22nd August 2009, 15:28
The McLarens looked good, as they have for the past couple of races. But, the team that's been helped by today's events is Brawn.

Both their cars are in the top 5, and not too far from podium and points-paying finishes. This will help them maintain both WDC & WCC leads.

Sometimes it's not where you place, it's where you finish, that gets results. See last year's final race for proof...

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 15:30
yes!!!

nice one mac's :up:

good for rubens, with the penalty to vettel ,Button starts 4th and Webber 8th. He needed a good result but couldn't bring it unless he is fueled for a long stint

I take back my comments about Grosjean. I guess he is better than NPJr. at least drives with more conviction. Like Anthony Davidson said,.NPJr drove like he was entitled to be in F1, while Grosjean drives hard with a purpose.

That being said. I'm in favor of NPJr or Bourdais taking over that badoer seat in that order. He is an embarrassment to Ferrari as he will go down as the first time that a Ferrari starts a GP dead last on pure performance. I feel for the guy. But he's really 8 years from being a competitive driver., whats worse, he couldn't seem to improve over the weekend or correct his drive line mistakes or braking zones.

tough luck for Nakajima, good showing by Buemi

VkmSpouge
22nd August 2009, 15:33
McLarens firmly on top and could have gone even faster. Brawn looking much improved but Jenson Button will be disappointed to be behind Sebastian Vettel (and he'll probably be passed by the KERS starting Kimi Raikkonen). Mark Webber all the way down in 9th place, for his sake I hope that's down to fuel load.

jens
22nd August 2009, 15:45
Webber only 9th? :s And with Brawn back on pace, it looks like Button is going to be World Champion. Also it's worth mentioning that Barrichello has improved since the British GP and been at least a match to Button (even in Hungary his pace was as good, but trouble in qualifying denied him of a better result).

A decent debut for Grosjean. He was right behind Alonso before decisive attempts in Q2, but I suspect could have made a mistake in his last run, which is why he ended 6 positions behind.

BMW has improved a bit, so has Force India - Sutil 12th. :) :up: Toyota on the other hand... before the weekend they kept saying, how "Valencia is very different from Monaco" - so much about that...

ioan
22nd August 2009, 15:59
Webber only 9th? :s And with Brawn back on pace, it looks like Button is going to be World Champion.

That's good.
I don't like Button and I'm pretty much indifferent to Webber.
However even if I like Vettel I do not like at all the way RedBull behaved lately, so I really hope Brawn (whom I respect) get's both titles!

Sonic
22nd August 2009, 18:27
Pos Driver Weight (kg)
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 653.0
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 655.0
3. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 662.5
4. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 654.0
5. Button Brawn-Mercedes 661.5
6. Raikkonen Ferrari 661.5
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 665.0
8. Alonso Renault 656.5
9. Webber Red Bull-Renault 664.5
10. Kubica BMW-Sauber 657.5
11. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 677.0
12. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 672.5
13. Glock Toyota 694.7
14. Grosjean Renault 677.7
15. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 688.5
16. Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 692.5
17. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 702.0
18. Trulli Toyota 707.3
19. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 678.5
20. Badoer Ferrari 690.5

ioan
22nd August 2009, 19:17
With that fuel load Badoer will be even slower than the others. :\

Robinho
22nd August 2009, 19:25
Brawns looking handy with a decent fuel load on

F1boat
22nd August 2009, 19:41
Brawns looking handy with a decent fuel load on

Yes, but McLaren will destroy them in the first laps IMO, especially if Kimi takes the white and green cars. IMO Rubens can beat Kovy tomorrow, but Lewis will take another victory.

F1boat
22nd August 2009, 19:42
That's good.
I don't like Button and I'm pretty much indifferent to Webber.
However even if I like Vettel I do not like at all the way RedBull behaved lately, so I really hope Brawn (whom I respect) get's both titles!

What do you mean by behavior? I missed few weeks in Internet (I was on holidays), so I am curious, not that I don't wanna see Jenson as WDC.

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 22:12
What do you mean by behavior? I missed few weeks in Internet (I was on holidays), so I am curious, not that I don't wanna see Jenson as WDC.

yeah, I'd like what behavior he's found abhorrent, if it is vettel complaining about kimi is hungary then might I agree in that instance, but that is one driver and not the team, so please do explain ioan.

ioan
22nd August 2009, 22:21
Backstabbing.

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 22:21
Pos Driver Weight (kg)
1. Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes 653.0
2. Kovalainen McLaren-Mercedes 655.0
3. Barrichello Brawn-Mercedes 662.5
4. Vettel Red Bull-Renault 654.0
5. Button Brawn-Mercedes 661.5
6. Raikkonen Ferrari 661.5
7. Rosberg Williams-Toyota 665.0
8. Alonso Renault 656.5
9. Webber Red Bull-Renault 664.5
10. Kubica BMW-Sauber 657.5
11. Heidfeld BMW-Sauber 677.0
12. Sutil Force India-Mercedes 672.5
13. Glock Toyota 694.7
14. Grosjean Renault 677.7
15. Buemi Toro Rosso-Ferrari 688.5
16. Fisichella Force India-Mercedes 692.5
17. Nakajima Williams-Toyota 702.0
18. Trulli Toyota 707.3
19. Alguersuari Toro Rosso-Ferrari 678.5
20. Badoer Ferrari 690.5


so the macs are light, but hamilton benefited from running less laps in Q3 and aborting his final lap and coming straight into he pits. so I wonder what the true fuel loads are at the start of the race. if burn fuel burn ratios are what I think, I do believe that the brawns probably only have a 1 lap advantage over the macs

with a clean start I expect LH to run away from kovy, who in turn will pull out a slight advantage over rubens for th first 10 laps or so, as Rubens and button reel him in, overtaking will opriove a bit diofficult and LH will continue to pull away.

To me the real interesting situation is what's going to happen at Brawn. Rubens is faster than button, but Button needs to get ahead of him. there is no way Rubens is going to back off for Button as he himself believes he is in the title fight. very interesting situation at brawn.

Webber and Rosberg are heaviest of the top 10 and I think Webber especially will put that to good use. I expect him to be right up to button by the third stint and a true fight will ensue.

truefan72
22nd August 2009, 22:31
Backstabbing.

??

oh, the not letting schumi practice thing,
You mean the following of the same rules for everyone right.
And how exactly is that backstabbing. RBR have nothing to do with Ferrari. STR has paid for their engines from ferrari and their stance cannot even be akin to backstabbing. these teams owe Ferrari nothing. No allegiance, no favors, nothing. It's only backstabbing in your world ioan.

because a team buys millions worth of engines from Ferrari, they are then beholden to grant them an unfair advantage over them competitively? only in your world ioan :|

ioan
22nd August 2009, 22:45
??

oh, the not letting schumi practice thing,
You mean the following of the same rules for everyone right.
And how exactly is that backstabbing. RBR have nothing to do with Ferrari. STR has paid for their engines from ferrari and their stance cannot even be akin to backstabbing. these teams owe Ferrari nothing. No allegiance, no favors, nothing. It's only backstabbing in your world ioan.

because a team buys million worth of engines from Ferrari, they are then beholden to grant them an unfair advantage over them competitively? only in your world ioan :|

I'll explain it slowly to you, so you get it.
When RedBull aked for Alguersuari to have a test Ferrari said OK, when Ferrari asked for MS to have a test RedBull said NO.

Williams also opposed the test and I think they had the right to do so, but RedBull didn't have the moral grounds to do it after asking for teh same favor and having it accepted by Ferrari.

As you can see it has nothing to do with any kind of engines. :wave:

F1boat
22nd August 2009, 22:48
I'll explain it slowly to you, so you get it.
When RedBull aked for Alguersuari to have a test Ferrari said OK, when Ferrari asked for MS to have a test RedBull said NO.

Williams also opposed the test and I think they had the right to do so, but RedBull didn't have the moral grounds to do it after asking for teh same favor and having it accepted by Ferrari.

As you can see it has nothing to do with any kind of engines. :wave:

I didn't knew this, but during the whole year RBR IMO are extremely cocky, so I hope that they lose both championships.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 02:49
Brawns looking handy with a decent fuel load on

And for the first time in three races both Barrichello and Button are actually happy with their cars.

Such a tight albeit fast circuitusually turns into a race of strategy and there is nobody better at that than Ross Brawn.

It also looks as of the Mclarens are a bit too oversteery - Hamilton has had several big moments this weekend.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 02:57
I'll explain it slowly to you, so you get it.
When RedBull aked for Alguersuari to have a test Ferrari said OK, when Ferrari asked for MS to have a test RedBull said NO.

Williams also opposed the test and I think they had the right to do so, but RedBull didn't have the moral grounds to do it after asking for teh same favor and having it accepted by Ferrari.

As you can see it has nothing to do with any kind of engines. :wave:

It has nothing to do with quid pro quo. Why should Red Bull reciprocate?

Ferrari did not see any disadvantage in letting Alguersuari test, but they were not running for the championship.

Red Bull are, and letting someone like Schumi test can be considered disadvantageous. RBR did see a disadvantage and acted properly.

It is no different to what Ferrari did when the US GP had the tyre problems and six cars ran the race.

If RBR had acted any other way ot would have been dishonest.

Ferrari consequently acted petulantly by publishing a comment - they should have accepted the issue with a stiff upper lip, understood the reason and said nothing.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 03:15
It has nothing to do with quid pro quo. Why should Red Bull reciprocate?

Honor? Principles?
Just a few things that they clearly do not poses, so I can not see them as worthy of consideration anymore.

Ent
23rd August 2009, 04:18
I'll explain it slowly to you, so you get it.
When RedBull aked for Alguersuari to have a test Ferrari said OK, when Ferrari asked for MS to have a test RedBull said NO.

I hardly see this as back-stabbing. When Alguersuari was denied extra testing, it set a precedent and clearly confirmed that no testing would be allowed for new drivers. To vote anything other than "no" from that point on would be inconsistent and would clearly favour one team (Ferrari) over all others. All we have here is consistency, not "back-stabbing".

gloomyDAY
23rd August 2009, 04:20
That's good.
I don't like Button and I'm pretty much indifferent to Webber.
However even if I like Vettel I do not like at all the way RedBull behaved lately, so I really hope Brawn (whom I respect) get's both titles!


I didn't knew this, but during the whole year RBR IMO are extremely cocky, so I hope that they lose both championships.Haters!

VkmSpouge
23rd August 2009, 04:23
Don't see it as backstabbing at all really. Just a perfectly good decision by Red Bull to help their championship chances.


Honor? Principles?

What? In F1?

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 08:46
Haters!

Gloomy, actually it is normal if you have your fingers crossed for one team (BGP), to hope that their rivals will fail. In the case RBR. Add their wonderful attitude, which ioan mentioned, and we have even more reasons not to like them. Although, as much as I hope that Jenson will win the WDC, I like Mark very much and I am very happy that he is in the middle of a WDC fight.

ShiftingGears
23rd August 2009, 09:43
Ferrari would do exactly the same as Red Bull if the roles were reversed.

Acting in your best interests = F1.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 10:46
Ferrari would do exactly the same as Red Bull if the roles were reversed.

Talk about not understanding plain English! :rolleyes:
History says that when the roles were reversed, ie RedBull asked for a test for Alguersuari, Ferrari said OK. How is that the same?! :confused:

ShiftingGears
23rd August 2009, 11:33
Talk about not understanding plain English! :rolleyes:
History says that when the roles were reversed, ie RedBull asked for a test for Alguersuari, Ferrari said OK. How is that the same?! :confused:

No need to get rude before you try and understand what I'm talking about.

Red Bull are looking for World Championships and need as little cars taking points off them as possible. Hence, them refusing Schumachers's test.

Ferrari are not in contention and allowing Alguersuari to test would lead to no detrimental impact on their results.

Obviously if the roles changed, ie, Ferrari were in the hunt for both world championships and a Red Bull car could take points off them if given testing, Ferrari would not agree to the test.

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 12:59
Obviously if the roles changed, ie, Ferrari were in the hunt for both world championships and a Red Bull car could take points off them if given testing, Ferrari would not agree to the test.

How can you be so sure of that? I don't think so. If you are right, were Brawn against MS testing? IMO RBR are just petty and unpleasant team, no matter how "cool" they try to portray themselves.

ShiftingGears
23rd August 2009, 13:22
How can you be so sure of that? I don't think so. If you are right, were Brawn against MS testing?

I do not know if BrawnGP were against MS testing, although I highly doubt they'd be for it if they were in Red Bull's position.

Sonic
23rd August 2009, 13:30
There has been far too much of this touchy feely niceness in F1 with the whole FOTA thing. I'm glad we are back to the piranha club of old! ;)

ioan
23rd August 2009, 13:40
I do not know if BrawnGP were against MS testing, although I highly doubt they'd be for it if they were in Red Bull's position.

There were only two teams against MS testing: Williams (and I have no problem with that as Ferrari didn't do them favors either) and RBR (who only a couple weeks before got Ferrari's OK for Alguersuari to test).
Also RBR's comments were malicious towards Ferrari. They knew that Williams had already said no, but they felt like they need to show they are important now that they are a bit in the chase for the title, which I hope they lose as they are bad sports. Typical arrogant newcomer stance. :\

Dave B
23rd August 2009, 13:42
Well it's all academic anyway, with Schuey not racing, and totally irrelevant to a thread about today's race.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 13:44
Well it's all academic anyway, with Schuey not racing, and totally irrelevant to a thread about today's race.

Wouldn't be the first thread that goes a bit sideways. ;) Other than BADoer's impressive slowness there is nothing exciting ATM.

Hopefully the race will be interesting. :)

PS: The outcome of the MS test is certainly academic, but RBR's behavior is something to remember in the future.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 13:52
There were only two teams against MS testing: Williams (and I have no problem with that as Ferrari didn't do them favors either) and RBR (who only a couple weeks before got Ferrari's OK for Alguersuari to test). Also RBR's comments were malicious towards Ferrari.


:rolleyes:

whereas Ferrari's comments towards Williams were all about class!

imagine for a second that the timing was reversed, would red Bull have still denied the test if they had not had a previous request denied themselves.

i see it this way - Red Bull wanted a test for Jaime, not unreasonabley, but the teams denied them that - regardless of who said yes or no, and that was also not unreasonable.

Ferrari ask for a test for MS, again not entirely unreasonable, but why should Red Bull now grant a request, when the temas as a whole denied tham theirs. suppose Williams decided this time not to deny the request and Red Bull had "honoured" Ferrari's previous acceptance, but assumed that Williams would veto again? would that then be fair?

i think if Jaime has got his test Red Bull would have happily granted a test for MS, or anyone else new to the grid (Grosjean, Badoer etc).

not sure you will be able to consider this in your balck and white world

Knock-on
23rd August 2009, 13:54
:z Get over it ioan :rolleyes:

Glad that Mclaren are back up to speed. What a turn around.

Should be a good race for Brawn with the fuel loads against the Bulls

ioan
23rd August 2009, 13:59
imagine for a second that the timing was reversed, would red Bull have still denied the test if they had not had a previous request denied themselves.

Why deny it to those who accepted yours, and knowing full well that Williams was already denying MS' test?!
It was only out of proving that they can play with the big ones now. To me this shows a very poor personality.

Anyway, race starts in a minute or so!

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 14:02
Honor? Principles?
Just a few things that they clearly do not poses, so I can not see them as worthy of consideration anymore.

Exactly what honor or principles? This is not a family or a club with some sort of common interest, these are competitors pursuing their own rational self-interest and that is moral.

Ferrari had no bigger interest if Torro Rosso tested - using a Ferrari engine - but Schumacher testing versus RBR is an important factor because RBR are championship contenders and Schumacher in a Ferrari would be expected to be a threat in a race.

Ferrari decided what they considered best and so did the Red Bull people.

According to the moral code you believe Red Bull should sacrifice themselves to Ferrari's interest - well, where was Ferrari's consideration of the other teams at the US Grand Prix a few seasons ago when there was a tyre problem?

Ferrari said "too bad" and went racing with two other teams - which by the way was the correct thing to do as was what Red Bull decided.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 14:09
Exactly what honor or principles? This is not a family or a club with some sort of common interest, these are competitors pursuing their own rational self-interest and that is moral.

Ever heard about fair play? It's something very widespread in sports. :rolleyes:

ioan
23rd August 2009, 14:43
Hey Adrian what about those Renault engines you wanted over the Ferrari engine?! :rotflmao:

ioan
23rd August 2009, 14:52
:eek: Badoer let's Grosjean to overtake him in the pit lane! :rotflmao:

gm99
23rd August 2009, 14:57
And he even gets a penalty for driving over the white line at the pit exit ;)

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:05
:eek: McLaren puck up Hamilton's race!

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:08
Get ready to see Rubens cry on the top step of the podium!

Go Rubens!

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:18
Kimi get's another podium today! Good race! :up:

Looks like no points for RedBull! :D

:eek: Buemi's front left break discs goes boom!

MrJan
23rd August 2009, 15:27
BORING!!!!!!!!!!!!!! That is all.

ShiftingGears
23rd August 2009, 15:35
Worst circuit on the calendar!

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:39
Have to say I really enjoyed this race! :D

Well done Rubens! :up: :up: :up:

Where's Button?! Only 7th??? :D

UltimateDanGTR
23rd August 2009, 15:39
and barrichello wins! well done that man, great job, but one must wonder if hamilton would have won if he had not had that pit trouble. well done anyway!

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:41
Worst circuit on the calendar!

Don't worry Webber might do better next year here! :D

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 15:42
utter dissapointment!

what a useless pitstop form the team. Cost them the victory

man I'm disappointed


hmm I wonder where barrichelo would have been in the points if the team didn't mess with him in a few GP's, cause he looks 10x the race Button is at the moment.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:43
but one must wonder if hamilton would have won if he had not had that pit trouble. well done anyway!

What used MS to say when things went bad?

"We win as a team we lose as a team!"

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 15:43
great drive from Rubens, well deserved.

well done Ioan, never miss an opportunity to stick the boot into someone, even when giving conratulations to someone else - you truly are another breed

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 15:44
Worst circuit on the calendar!

perhaps for Webber, not for everyone else. I like the track

jimakos
23rd August 2009, 15:44
Great race,I really enjoyed it!
It's a pity for ferrari that didn't manage to find a competitive driver for this event!
Only Kimi can't do something good for the team.
Congrats to Rubens for his 1st win :up:
A tragic mistake on pits costed Hamilton the 1st position...

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 15:44
tough race for Button but a decent recovery in the end, all lost in the first corner battle with Vettel, that set him back behind slower cars for most of the race.

good drive from Hamilton, would have been real close if not for the late tyres.

nice, if quiet, job from Kimi to get 3rd as well

ShiftingGears
23rd August 2009, 15:45
Don't worry Webber might do better next year here! :D

My opinion wouldn't change regardless of his result.

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 15:45
What use MS to say when things went bad?

"We win as a team we lose as a team!"

well you haven't been to "team oriented " have you know ;)

UltimateDanGTR
23rd August 2009, 15:47
What use MS to say when things went bad?

"We win as a team we lose as a team!"

yes indeed. i think it would have been even closer, both men did a fine job though!

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:47
hmm I wonder where barrichelo would have been in the points if the team didn't mess with him in a few GP's, cause he looks 10x the race Button is at the moment.

Looks to me that when things didn't went smooth Rubens did better than Jenson.
IMO Brawn went with the wrong guy and he will probably regret it even if Button wins the championship.

UltimateDanGTR
23rd August 2009, 15:48
Worst circuit on the calendar!

hungaroring. bahrain. catalunya.

i have proven you and webber wrong sir ;)

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:48
great drive from Rubens, well deserved.

well done Ioan, never miss an opportunity to stick the boot into someone, even when giving conratulations to someone else - you truly are another breed

:laugh:

Knock-on
23rd August 2009, 15:50
Looks to me that when things didn't went smooth Rubens did better than Jenson.
IMO Brawn went with the wrong guy and he will probably regret it even if Button wins the championship.

Yet more rubbish. There is no evidence of team orders at Brawn apart from in your mind.

Rubens stepped up to the plate today and showed what he can do. Just be happy for him :rolleyes:

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:55
What used MS to say when things went bad?

"We win as a team we lose as a team!"

Looks like Lewis heard this too! :up:
He's getting better with time. ;)

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 15:55
Looks to me that when things didn't went smooth Rubens did better than Jenson.
IMO Brawn went with the wrong guy and he will probably regret it even if Button wins the championship.

got to agree with that.

Button has been on cruise control the whole year and won with a dominant car. He has done nothing once the others caught up. Meanwhile Rubens has really shown that exceptional driving can overcome some car issues. IMO Rubens has been the better driver

ioan
23rd August 2009, 15:56
Yet more rubbish. There is no evidence of team orders at Brawn apart from in your mind.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 15:57
Looks to me that when things didn't went smooth Rubens did better than Jenson.
IMO Brawn went with the wrong guy and he will probably regret it even if Button wins the championship.

:rolleyes:

when it didn't go smooth for Jenson, Rubens made the best of it and won the race.

when it didn't go smooth for Rubens, Jenson made the best of it and won the race(s)

Brawn is still saying both drivers are still free to race each other. you choose to believe what you like, you've made it abundently clear that opposing opinions mean nothing to you and you will only debate to try and force your opinion on others rather than further the discussion or see things from a different way.

why would they regret it even if Jenson wins the title?!

they'll be more bothered about the constructors, like most teams are anyway.

jimakos
23rd August 2009, 15:58
Badoer really disappointed me with so many mistakes!
I think ferrari have to choose another driver to complete the year.
Pique or Bourdais will be some solutions!
Any other suggestions?

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 16:01
:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


laughing is not a discussion, not part of an opinion, not evidence, and in the absence of a joke just insulting and makes you look odd.

if you've got nothing to add, don't bother bringing anything or saying anything.

i'm sure you've heard the phrase "if you haven't got anything sensible to say, don't say anything at all"

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:02
Yet more rubbish. There is no evidence of team orders at Brawn apart from in your mind.

Rubens stepped up to the plate today and showed what he can do. Just be happy for him :rolleyes:


come on knockie lets be honest, there were team orders at Brawn, maybe not blatant but clear for all to see who they favored. Rubens has been the better driver all year and when he didn't perform, it was never for a lack of trying. Button on the other hand is complaining to his team about the car in the middle of the race instead of getting on with it. Rubens should have had 2 more victories this year.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:04
laughing is not a discussion,

Sorry, I just gave up some time ago having useless 'discussions'.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:04
come on knocke lets be honest...

You're asking too much there! :D
If it was the other way around he would have crucified both Brawn and Rubens. ;)

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 16:05
I will not enter the pointless discussion. I want to say that Rubens did a fantastic job, the battle between the most experienced driver and the youngest ever champion Lewis was fantastic and this was really, really great to watch, brilliant drive from Kimi as well and the championship seems to become more and more interesting. F1 rules!!!

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:06
Sorry, I just gave up some time ago having useless 'discussions'.

ioan, if you feel that way, why even bother to come on this forum. please be decent enough to have a discussion here. I try to explain my reasoning. and so should you. We are here to have a discussion not make unchallenged statements

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 16:08
so when Rubens ends up behind its team orders, but when Button ends up behind its because of superior driving.

never mind that on some occasions this year either has outdriven and out thought the other, and on balance Button has done that more often at the start of the season, hence multiple wins, yet now they are more in the pack when Rubens has come out ahead there has been much less reward.

i don't see why everyone has too look for deeper meaning, conspiracy and significance in everything that happens - sometimes the most obvious answer is the right one, why ignore whats in front of your face and the official stories - too much scepticism.

i agree Rubens has had some e luck, but he's made up for it when he's had the chance to genuinely win on pace

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:09
ioan, if you feel that way, why even bother to come on this forum. please be decent enough to have a discussion here. I try to explain my reasoning. and so should you. We are here to have a discussion not make unchallenged statements

Sometimes there are discussions worth having sometimes you can see, like in Konckie's case, that he doesn't have a grasp on reality regarding the BrawnGP affair. So what should I do, lose my time when I know it's totally useless?
He called my opinion utter rubbish, I think I have the right to at least laugh at his childish comment, it's much better than if I retaliate and call him what I think he is.

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:12
I will not enter the pointless discussion. I want to say that Rubens did a fantastic job, the battle between the most experienced driver and the youngest ever champion Lewis was fantastic and this was really, really great to watch, brilliant drive from Kimi as well and the championship seems to become more and more interesting. F1 rules!!!


yeah got a bit sidetracked for a moment,

forgot to mention kimi's outstanding driver and Heike's lack of pace yet again. He was good in the first stint and then average afterward. He should have been fighting with Rubens not fading backwards.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 16:12
Sorry, I just gave up some time ago having useless 'discussions'.


you have rarely, if ever, contributed to a "discussion" on here, the times when it ends up being useless you always seem to be involved - you might cry coincidence or even conspiracy, to me "no smoke without fire" maybe?

dicussion involves dialogue, which takes someone considering someones replies.

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 16:13
truefan, I think that Kovalainen had some problem after the second pit as he lost pace dramatically. BTW, do you think that with the new blown engine Vettel is out of the title fight? Newey seemed really upset.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 16:18
Sometimes there are discussions worth having sometimes you can see, like in Konckie's case, that he doesn't have a grasp on reality regarding the BrawnGP affair. So what should I do, lose my time when I know it's totally useless?
He called my opinion utter rubbish, I think I have the right to at least laugh at his childish comment, it's much better than if I retaliate and call him what I think he is.

who are you to say he doesn't have a grasp on reality regarding Brawn GP because he has a different opinion to you. what you know does not make it fact, only opinion based on what you've seen. if and when Brawn comes out a says they invoked team orders or get banned for using them then your opinion on the reality is just that, an opinion. you cannot peddle it as fact. its not what you "know" its what you "think"

you know the sky is blue, you know that light is faster than sound, you know tigers have stripes.

you think Brawn Gp used team orders against Rubens, you think that Rubens is a better driver than Jenson. you might even think you are right, but it doesn't mean you are, it means you have an opinion. it might even be a very valid one, but until you learn to convey it in a way that doesn't make you come accross and a spoilt child you'll struggle to find anyone willing to entertain it

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:30
who are you to say he doesn't have a grasp on reality regarding Brawn GP because he has a different opinion to you.

And who are you to question if I'm right or not :?:
Applying what you preach would be a good start to have a conversation with me, if you insist on having one.

This discussion is closed as far as I see it. If you wish you can contact me with a PM.

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:38
IMO Rubens has been the better driver

Thats why he is around 20 points behind Button? Yeah, sure.
Watch the races next time.

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:39
come on knockie lets be honest, there were team orders at Brawn, maybe not blatant but clear for all to see who they favored. Rubens has been the better driver all year and when he didn't perform, it was never for a lack of trying. Button on the other hand is complaining to his team about the car in the middle of the race instead of getting on with it. Rubens should have had 2 more victories this year.

Completely delusional and crazy. Totally.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 16:40
i'm not questioning if you are right or not, i'm questioning whether what you think is fact.

i disagree with your opinion, but without detailed knowledge and insider information from Brawn i can't say fro certain that there were no team orders. everything i've seen or heard leads me to think that there were not as i've seen no decent evidence to the contrary.

i have no need to take anything to PM's, i don't have the time nor inclination to engage in petty private vendettas, and as its a public message boards, my opinions are open to discussion for all, so if anyone else whats to discuss the Brawn team orders or Brawns best driver then they can do.

so, i'd say discussion very much open.

and as you never seem to read posts before replying, or only respond to single lines from a post, if the discussion is closed from your side it will have absolutley no effect on the dynamic of the "dialogue" as all discussion appears closed to you anyway

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:44
truefan, I think that Kovalainen had some problem after the second pit as he lost pace dramatically. BTW, do you think that with the new blown engine Vettel is out of the title fight? Newey seemed really upset.

I actually think it is a 4 way battle right now. I think that LH will be there again in Spa, and I tip the RBR's to be better than the Brawns in that race. with 6 races to go, the next 2 will determine the team pecking orders and contenders.

As to kovy, maybe they put scrubs on or whatever, but the man needed to push like his seat depended on it ...wait it does

I really expected to see to macs on the podium. But hats off to kimi and rubens. but that last pit stop really hurt. It was like a punch to the gut.

veeten
23rd August 2009, 16:46
BTW, do you think that with the new blown engine Vettel is out of the title fight? Newey seemed really upset.

Now, here's an interesting bit of discussion.

The rules say that you have eight(8) engines to work with for the season, and have to last two races. Vettel has gone through two this weekend, and with six (6) races to go will be quite the challenge for Red Bull.

And the next two races won't give them pause either, as Spa & Monza are the fastest tracks of the season. So, do you back off and sacrifice possible points to save the season, or go all-out and be in a bit of a pickle by Brazil?

Tough choices, indeed...

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:51
Thats why he is around 20 points behind Button? Yeah, sure.
Watch the races next time.

yeah, I do and I see one driver cruisng along, and the other driver fighting for it. Button got preferential treatment at Brawn GP initially and it was clear to anyone watching the races. now that they are on equal footing ( after statements from Brawn himself, open questioning by Rubens, along with many articles and stories about the situation) Rubens seems to be more than a match for Button. just because you like a driver Button does't mean you have to live in denial

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:51
Now, here's an interesting bit of discussion.

The rules say that you have eight(8) engines to work with for the season, and have to last two races. Vettel has gone through two this weekend, and with six (6) races to go will be quite the challenge for Red Bull.

And the next two races won't give them pause either, as Spa & Monza are the fastest tracks of the season. So, do you back off and sacrifice possible points to save the season, or go all-out and be in a bit of a pickle by Brazil?

Tough choices, indeed...

Vettel still has older engines that he can use in FP sessions and in races.
They dont have to last 2 races, you can use them and change them whenever you want, provided you do the qualy and race of every weekend with the same engine.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:51
Now, here's an interesting bit of discussion.

The rules say that you have eight(8) engines to work with for the season, and have to last two races. Vettel has gone through two this weekend, and with six (6) races to go will be quite the challenge for Red Bull.

And the next two races won't give them pause either, as Spa & Monza are the fastest tracks of the season. So, do you back off and sacrifice possible points to save the season, or go all-out and be in a bit of a pickle by Brazil?

Tough choices, indeed...

Apparently Vettel only has one brand new engine left for 6 races, so he either will use older underpowered engines without to many chances for good results, or he takes 10 place grid penalties and again has no chances for good results.
Anyway he's done for this season.

truefan72
23rd August 2009, 16:52
Completely delusional and crazy. Totally.

funny how your mind works. no point in discussing with you.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:52
Vettel still has older engines that he can use in FP sessions and in races.
They dont have to last 2 races, you can use them and change them whenever you want, provided you do the qualy and race of every weekend with the same engine.

I've read somewhere the after used for like 2 races the engines power starts dropping significantly.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 16:53
funny how your mind works. no point in discussing with you.

You see, I've told you earlier, there are such instances on this forum.

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:54
yeah, I do and I see one driver cruisng along, and the other driver fighting for it. Button got preferential treatment at Brawn GP initially and it was clear to anyone watching the races. now that they are on equal footing ( after statements from Brawn himself, open questioning by Rubens, along with many articles and stories about the situation) Rubens seems to be more than a match for Button. just because you like a driver Button does't mean you have to live in denial

Everyone who has been on this forum and read my posts knows that I like Barrichello far more than Button who I have made fun of for years here.
That said, Button was quicker than Rubens from the start of this year and simply drove better. No team orders, nothing. All that is BS talk from crazy fanboys.

I know a guy of your level will be happy to tell me of all the team-orders and perferential treatment Button got to help him over Barrichello in all of the races this year. Why Button has 6 wins and Barrichello has 1 win.
I want FACTS, understand that, FACTS, not your current level of reasoning.

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:57
funny how your mind works. no point in discussing with you.

You say Barrichello has been the better driver, yet Button is leading him by a clear margin and has won 5 more races and then you come saying that I am not worth being discussed with? You should be a circus clown with that mindset of yours, you really know how to make people laugh AT you.

Garry Walker
23rd August 2009, 16:58
I've read somewhere the after used for like 2 races the engines power starts dropping significantly.

Depends on the engine. I remember a few years ago McLaren had it really bad with Mercedes engine, that used to have a major drop-off in power after a little while. Toyota apparently used to not have any problems with that sort of thing at all.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 17:00
yeah, I do and I see one driver cruisng along, and the other driver fighting for it. Button got preferential treatment at Brawn GP initially and it was clear to anyone watching the races. now that they are on equal footing ( after statements from Brawn himself, open questioning by Rubens, along with many articles and stories about the situation) Rubens seems to be more than a match for Button. just because you like a driver Button does't mean you have to live in denial

i'd disagree with that, i think Button was driving brilliantly at the start of the season and simply outdrove Rubens. when Buttons confidence was up he was great, Rubens confidence suffered and he didn't go so well.

he wasn't cruising either, there have been several times where Button has had to pass cars to make it work (Malaysia past Alonso for example).

now Rubens seems more comfortable and Button is under pressure and i'd agree that the last couple of races Rubens seem to have the upper hand.

over the course of the season so far i think Button has been the better driver, but Rubens is going better right now.

personally i do hope that Button gets his mojo back, but if not Rubens is likely to start catching him. i don't see there were team orders, i think Button simply drove the better laps when required to make the best out of strategy - as the team have mainatined after each instance. undoubtedly Rubens has also had the majority of poor luck, but that also seems to have swung to Jenson at the moment

ioan
23rd August 2009, 17:15
I just hope that Rubens gets a further year with Brawn, he deserves it.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 17:29
Jenson, not a man withg any chips or hang-ups complimented and congratulated Barrichello. The Button detractors will as usual go off on tangents.

A very good end result of the Brawn team really - they have extended the constructors championship lead over Red Bull [and Mateschitz makes no disguise that it is that championship he would rather win], Jenson has managed to extend his lead over nearest Red Bull challenger Webber and of course Barrichello has won and is back in second place.

But Jenson recognizes that he needs to get out of the relative doldrums because Rubens is only 16 points behind.

Anyone here know why Barrichello has a Star of David on top of his helmet?

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 17:39
Was that Grosjean or Piquet driving the Renault?

While it was his first grand prix, it is clear that Grosjean is not a driver in the Vettel league and should have to up his game to be signed for 2010 I think.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 17:43
although as ponted out in another thread, he had a faster fastest lap than Alonso.

unfortunately we have to evaluate young drivers over the races now, and Grosjean will have the rest of the season to prove himself for a seat next year, makes sense for Renault as they were gaining nothing with Piquet, if Grosjean shows some pace that should be enough to establish himself with the team, especially if Alonso is off as many are tipping

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 18:07
although as ponted out in another thread, he had a faster fastest lap than Alonso.

unfortunately we have to evaluate young drivers over the races now, and Grosjean will have the rest of the season to prove himself for a seat next year, makes sense for Renault as they were gaining nothing with Piquet, if Grosjean shows some pace that should be enough to establish himself with the team, especially if Alonso is off as many are tipping

You make a valid point. I think that Briatore has to be looking to sign Kubica.

At least Whitmarsh this weekend was openly declaring that Alonso will be at Ferrari in 2010 and I believe him.

I dont think Kovaleinen did himself any good today either - problem is that both times he has been teammate to two of the best drivers in f1 and two drivers that objectively are the best type of driver.

Kovaleinen should rather seek to be number one in one of the new teams. He could just flourish away from the pressure.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 18:10
I just hope that Rubens gets a further year with Brawn, he deserves it.

I have been a harsh critic of Barrichello - today I am very happy for him and enjoyed the grand prix.

I agree with your statement.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 18:15
Apparently Vettel only has one brand new engine left for 6 races, so he either will use older underpowered engines without to many chances for good results, or he takes 10 place grid penalties and again has no chances for good results.
Anyway he's done for this season.

That engines blow up these days is not usual - there was a time I recall when Aug-Sept WERE the months of engine failures because the Cosworth factory used to go on holiday during that period and the fast Monza and Osterreichring tracks were raced on.

But two in one car at the same grand prix in 2009 indicates something is definitely awry. I wonder if the remaining engines for both webberand Vettel are from the same batch?

jens
23rd August 2009, 20:04
I'm gutted for Vettel. :( His season seems almost cursed. I know he has been making mistakes as well, but 5 retirements in 11 races especially in modern F1 environment, where there are barely any retirements, is just tooooo much.

At least the positive side of all this is that even if he doesn't become champion this year (probably not - too early!), he is still very young and will probably do it in the future. :)

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 21:18
I'm gutted for Vettel. :( His season seems almost cursed. I know he has been making mistakes as well, but 5 retirements in 11 races especially in modern F1 environment, where there are barely any retirements, is just tooooo much.

At least the positive side of all this is that even if he doesn't become champion this year (probably not - too early!), he is still very young and will probably do it in the future. :)

You are "gutted" for him?

Its nothing. As a suporter of Nigel Mansell who had to race against greater competition than is around these days, he lost the championship more than once - and almost retired before finally clinching it.

Nigel did become champion at the age of 39 and when he did, he did it in a car that he gelled with in the most ideal way - more so than any other champions of his era.

He utterly dominated and achieved numbers that not even his racing contemporaries, Senna and Prost, were able to do.

In the end, through the disappointments, his world title win, was a most satisfying one for his many supporters, not least because he always recognized us too.

Thank you Nigel, we will always be grateful to you for 1992, we rode the crest of the happiness wave, far above the competition and your many detractors, together :-]

ioan
23rd August 2009, 21:32
Its nothing. As a suporter of Nigel Mansell who had to race against greater competition than is around these days...

You're joking right?!

You mean Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Rosberg etc are not up to that level? Must be some incurable nostalgia you've got yourself.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 21:40
You're joking right?!

You mean Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Rosberg etc are not up to that level? Must be some incurable nostalgia you've got yourself.


for once i agree with you - i think the depth of quality of the field is as good now as it has ever been, if not better than ever.

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 21:41
You're joking right?!

You mean Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Rosberg etc are not up to that level?

No. To the level of Prost and Senna? These two alone are nightmarish rivals, maybe only the dream Ferrari team with Brawn and MS could be tougher rival. Add to these Pqiuet and Lauda and even early MS...

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 21:47
You're joking right?!

You mean Alonso, Hamilton, Raikkonen, Massa, Rosberg etc are not up to that level? Must be some incurable nostalgia you've got yourself.

Are you a bitter person? Jaded or cynical?

Because I have noticed that you usually throw out barbs when responding to posts, as you have done above.

I did not mention drivers being less than able, but referred to the competion at the time. No matter how you measure the grid today when Nigel raced he did so against a field that included Senna and Schumacher.

I need not say more.

Robinho
23rd August 2009, 21:54
i'm not convinced, whilst the top 4 or 6 were head and shoulders the best back then, i think the depth of quality runs deeper now. there are always a couple of stand out performers in any generation who set the mark, generally by beating the last one(s).

the rivalry between the top drivers maybe seemed greater as they were the ones contesting things whereas now we have a greater spread of potential winners (car permitting)

Alonso, Hamilton, Kovy, Kimi, Massa, Button, Rubens, Vettel, Webber, Trulli, Fisi, Kubica are all winners on the current grid, thats more than half the field. most of those have looked capable of winning this year.

some might say thats due to a lack of stand out quality a la Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, but i'd say that it is the quality if drivers currently driving, and maybe the quality of the cras being produced allowing such a tight spread between the teams as well - in some ways we've never had it so good, if we can just get the cars able to overtake......

and for refernece, i have been watching F1 for over 20 years and watched back or researchhed prior to that, so its not just that i'm bigging up the only F1 i've seen

ioan
23rd August 2009, 22:07
No. To the level of Prost and Senna? These two alone are nightmarish rivals, maybe only the dream Ferrari team with Brawn and MS could be tougher rival. Add to these Pqiuet and Lauda and even early MS...

Let's not turn Prost and Senna into supermen.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 22:09
i'm not convinced, whilst the top 4 or 6 were head and shoulders the best back then, i think the depth of quality runs deeper now. there are always a couple of stand out performers in any generation who set the mark, generally by beating the last one(s).

the rivalry between the top drivers maybe seemed greater as they were the ones contesting things whereas now we have a greater spread of potential winners (car permitting)

Alonso, Hamilton, Kovy, Kimi, Massa, Button, Rubens, Vettel, Webber, Trulli, Fisi, Kubica are all winners on the current grid, thats more than half the field. most of those have looked capable of winning this year.

some might say thats due to a lack of stand out quality a la Senna, Prost, Mansell, Schumacher, but i'd say that it is the quality if drivers currently driving, and maybe the quality of the cras being produced allowing such a tight spread between the teams as well - in some ways we've never had it so good, if we can just get the cars able to overtake......

and for refernece, i have been watching F1 for over 20 years and watched back or researchhed prior to that, so its not just that i'm bigging up the only F1 i've seen

Not to mention that Senna, Prost or Mansell never experienced races where the difference between 1st and tenth on the grid was about 0.4 - 0.5 seconds like we have now, and they were 90% of the time in race winning cars.

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 22:21
Let's not turn Prost and Senna into supermen.

They were IMO. They were very special, like MS was. But there was two of them, not one. JMO.

jens
23rd August 2009, 22:22
I agree with those, who say that the field nowadays is more competitive than ever before. What is interesting that the depth of the field will most probably improve even further in the future! That is because most of current star drivers are relatively young (below 30), which means that at least during the next five years we won't face many "losses" (retirements of top drivers). At the same time it's entirely possible that during that time-span more true top talents may reach F1, making F1 even more competitive than it is now. :)

F1boat
23rd August 2009, 22:24
I agree with those, who say that the field nowadays is more competitive than ever before.

I believe that this is because the cars are much closer to each other now. The drivers IMO are not better than before. They are very fit today and there are many talented drivers, but to me so far no grand drivers like MS or Senna. Of course, this is just my opinion.

jens
23rd August 2009, 22:27
They were IMO. They were very special, like MS was. But there was two of them, not one. JMO.

I think the reason why at the moment no-one looks "that special" is exactly because we have so many competitive drivers. I can't imagine Prost and Senna mopping the floor with the rest of the field nowadays, if they were racing now at their prime. More likely it would be an extremely close fight.

IMO it's really about the evolution of a sport to a higher level. Like in various sports world records get pushed to another level (we have seen some of them quite recently! :D ), then F1 keeps improving as well - likewise the preparation of racing drivers is more deeper now. Motorsports are more accessible than in the past. The search for top talents is more professional. Etc. I think there are currently more racing series in the world than there were like 20 years ago, hence more very good racing drivers.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 22:34
They were IMO. They were very special, like MS was. But there was two of them, not one. JMO.

Well, well, I could agree that both of them together were as special as MS, which means they were no supermen. :)

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 23:08
Not to mention that Senna, Prost or Mansell never experienced races where the difference between 1st and tenth on the grid was about 0.4 - 0.5 seconds like we have now, and they were 90% of the time in race winning cars.

I notice you excuse Schumacher from the above comment...... Ah well, bias is as bias does.

And so what about the differences? It does not alter the fact that the tenth driver on the grid is unlikely to win.

Furthermore, during the days of "Senna, Prost and Mansell" the cars were more powerful and overtaking on track was not as rare as today.

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 23:20
Well, well, I could agree that both of them together were as special as MS, which means they were no supermen. :)

They were both "as special"?

They were before Schumacher. He is not the standard - they are or specifically, Senna is.

Schumacher never had competition as teammates as did both Prost and Senna. Schumacher always was number 1 and at Ferrari the number 2 gave up race wins - ask Barrichello - when beating Schumacher.

This was not a situation that Senna had - he was never gifted races to win the championship.

Knock-on
23rd August 2009, 23:25
I just hope that Rubens gets a further year with Brawn, he deserves it.

I totally agree with you on this point. He has really raised his game and JB needs to do the same.

On the rest of your points, you talk bollocks as per normal.

(Woops, 3 points and a £60 fine :D )

grantb4
23rd August 2009, 23:28
Somewhat boring race, but a lot better than last year. Any of the conspiracy theorists think McLaren let Rubins win in order that Brawn/Mercedes would take more constructor points than Red Bull?

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 23:32
One thing about this grand prix is that it is so empty.

Not only was it evident that the spectators were sparse, but it is such as deserted race track.

It conveys a test session atmosphere and is like watching the race at Sahkir.

The differenace between this track and the marvellous Spa in every way next week will be stark.

Such a pity the way f1 has gone. But never fear - the fickle auto manufacturers are returning f1 to its soul by leaving, so maybe these empty bland circuits will also fall by the wayside and f1 will return to proper race tracks filled with PEOPLE!!

Saint Devote
23rd August 2009, 23:39
I totally agree with you on this point. He has really raised his game and JB needs to do the same.

On the rest of your points, you talk bollocks as per normal.

(Woops, 3 points and a £60 fine :D )

Button radioed on the way to the grid that he had some sort of selection problem and it affected him twice - including during his q3 run.

Also, Jenson wisely drove a defensive race and twice avoided contact, once with Vettel.

But better than anyone he knows that he has to do better next week.

ioan
23rd August 2009, 23:40
They were both "as special"?

Both together, as I said!



They were before Schumacher. He is not the standard - they are or specifically, Senna is.

Senna got his arse handed to him on a silver plate by MS before he died. :wave:

ioan
23rd August 2009, 23:41
Somewhat boring race, but a lot better than last year. Any of the conspiracy theorists think McLaren let Rubins win in order that Brawn/Mercedes would take more constructor points than Red Bull?

Huh?
Brawn were going to get more WCC points than RBR anyway.

grantb4
24th August 2009, 00:01
Huh?
Brawn were going to get more WCC points than RBR anyway.

Yeah but you get more for 1st than 2nd and McLaren aren't going to win the constructors, so perhaps Brawn will (with Mercedes power).

woody2goody
24th August 2009, 00:01
It was awful until about 20 laps in when Rubens looked to have a chance of the victory.

After that, it was an entertaining strategy battle between Rubens and Lewis.

No overtaking again, but an enjoyable finish to the race. Plus, the circuit looked so much nicer this year.

airshifter
24th August 2009, 00:19
Excellent drive by Rubens, and with a a bit of help from the McLaren pits, a well deserved victory! I'm not so sure it would have been easy for Lewis even with a good stop, as Rubens was really pushing. And I'm sure Felipe enjoyed the victory for Rubens as well.

Sad to see Kimi on the podium with Felipe no doubt watching Luca blow the race. This would have been a good circuit to test Kimi and Felipe against each other, as both seem to like such circuits.

As for Lewis, thumbs up for his "win as a team, lose as a team" attitude after the race, and defending the hard work his team has done. Too bad Rubens had to remind him to take his hat off during the anthem. ;)

wedge
24th August 2009, 01:19
Plus, the circuit looked so much nicer this year.

Regardless of the amount of totty and wide-boys, it still looked like Birmingham Super Prix by the Sea

VkmSpouge
24th August 2009, 01:22
Well done to Rubens Barrichello on a fine victory. Thoroughly deserved and I reckon he would have jumped Lewis Hamilton in the pitstops even without McLaren forgetting his tyres. By the way, Martin Whitmarsh's answer to Ted Kravitz's question as to what happened was hilarious.

ShiftingGears
24th August 2009, 01:51
hungaroring. bahrain. catalunya.

i have proven you and webber wrong sir ;)

Those circuits offer something more than tight radius turns for the whole lap. Bar perhaps Bahrain, where there is at least passing.

Singapore is also dreadful.

Saint Devote
24th August 2009, 02:04
Both together, as I said!



Senna got his arse handed to him on a silver plate by MS before he died. :wave:

How exactly do you arrive at that?! Besides which I ams sure Schumacher himself would object to your disrespect for Senna.

In 1992 Senna won 1 pole 3 grands prix, Schumacher zero poles and 1 grand prix.

In 1993 Senna won 1 pole and 5 grands prix, Schumacher won zero poles and 1 grand prix.

In 1994 Senna's first two races were problems and Schumacher won both, but Senna was on pole. At the tragic Imola event, Senna was on pole again and was leading Schumacher when he crashed.

In the end, Schumacher won the championship but by only 1 point ahead of Damon Hill. He scored only 1 victory more than Hill and we all know what Schumacher did there......

Damon Hill was beating Schumacher and you believe that Senna would not have done better with that Williams had he not lived?

I have a bridge to sell you.

As I have mentioned previously, Schumacher devotees have a mystical view of him and Schumacher would not approve of it because Michael does not believe in fairy dust!

Saint Devote
24th August 2009, 02:11
Generally these street circuits are just horrible. They cannot compare to real racing circuits.

Although nothing beats the worst f1 tracks of modern times - the Las Vegas car park [Gordon Murray refused to attend] or the streets of Dallas which had around 10,000 spectators.

I think I liked Valencia last year because it was new and novel. This year it came across like a race through a shipping container storage area.

I am pleased that the crowd was sparse and that reports in Autosport suggest it is going to be dropped from the calendar.

Chaparral66
24th August 2009, 07:02
Really happy for Rubens today on a well deserved and overdue victory. He's been such a good soldier for so long, it's a good day in F1 when he wins.

Tazio
24th August 2009, 07:21
Those circuits offer something more than tight radius turns for the whole lap. Bar perhaps Bahrain, where there is at least passing.

Singapore is also dreadful.Thankfully we have less than a week untill Spa. Even tamed down a little it will be a breath of fresh air after this snoozfest.
Extended forcast:
http://www.weather.com/outlook/travel/businesstraveler/extended/BEXX0031
Much cooler weather with a chance of rain!
Can't wait! :D

F1boat
24th August 2009, 07:39
It was awful until about 20 laps in when Rubens looked to have a chance of the victory.

After that, it was an entertaining strategy battle between Rubens and Lewis.

No overtaking again, but an enjoyable finish to the race. Plus, the circuit looked so much nicer this year.

I agree and I hope that Valencia will stay! I love these glamorous races! :)

jimakos
24th August 2009, 08:46
I agree and I hope that Valencia will stay! I love these glamorous races! :)
Of course Valencia have to stay in f1.
I think is one of the best races in f1 after monaco(for me the best) :D

F1boat
24th August 2009, 09:34
Of course Valencia have to stay in f1.
I think is one of the best races in f1 after monaco(for me the best) :D

I like Singapore more, but I also like Valencia a lot and definitely for me Monaco is the best ever.

jimakos
24th August 2009, 09:43
I like Singapore more, but I also like Valencia a lot and definitely for me Monaco is the best ever.

Happy to hear that Monaco is the best and for you :p
Really amazing race...

F1boat
24th August 2009, 10:44
Yes, the ultimate race for me...

ShiftingGears
24th August 2009, 10:55
I agree and I hope that Valencia will stay! I love these glamorous races! :)

I fail to see whats glamourous about a circuit consisting of access roads through a dockyard.

F1boat
24th August 2009, 11:12
I fail to see whats glamourous about a circuit consisting of access roads through a dockyard.

Matter of taste, pal... To me the see the track near the beautiful beach, to see that old Spanish ship, the yachts, was glamorous!

ioan
24th August 2009, 11:26
How exactly do you arrive at that?! Besides which I ams sure Schumacher himself would object to your disrespect for Senna.

In 1994 Senna's first two races were problems and Schumacher won both, but Senna was on pole. At the tragic Imola event, Senna was on pole again and was leading Schumacher when he crashed.

Poles count for nothing and he did lost 3 races in a row, pole or no pole!
Truth is he wasn't getting any better anymore while MS was hammering him. :wave:

BTW, you might have realized that I never liked Senna, in fact I believe that Prost was a much better racer than him.

ioan
24th August 2009, 11:29
I agree and I hope that Valencia will stay! I love these glamorous races! :)

Have to say I liked the race and even the circuit is not that bad, plus there have been some great curves showed under some great angles! ;)

Sonic
24th August 2009, 11:29
Generally these street circuits are just horrible. They cannot compare to real racing circuits.

Although nothing beats the worst f1 tracks of modern times - the Las Vegas car park [Gordon Murray refused to attend] or the streets of Dallas which had around 10,000 spectators.

I think I liked Valencia last year because it was new and novel. This year it came across like a race through a shipping container storage area.

I am pleased that the crowd was sparse and that reports in Autosport suggest it is going to be dropped from the calendar.

Everything I've read suggests a five year deal to run the race at valencia so it won't be droped. I'm glad too, its a good track. Similar to Canada before they made the long back straight. It provided some tense racing, and the GP2 race was mega!

ioan
24th August 2009, 11:30
Everything I've read suggests a five year deal to run the race at valencia so it won't be droped. I'm glad too, its a good track. Similar to Canada before they made the long back straight. It provided some tense racing, and the GP2 race was mega!

:up:

ioan
24th August 2009, 11:31
I fail to see whats glamourous about a circuit consisting of access roads through a dockyard.

I think the race is glamorous, if the circuit isn't that much, and this is what's important, the atmosphere not the location (although being on the Mediterranean coast is a great location IMO).

Saint Devote
24th August 2009, 11:35
Poles count for nothing and he did lost 3 races in a row, pole or no pole!
Truth is he wasn't getting any better anymore while MS was hammering him. :wave:

BTW, you might have realized that I never liked Senna, in fact I believe that Prost was a much better racer than him.

Your comment just illustrates my point about Schumacher devotees versus fans.

You never liked Senna?! - OMG you could have fooled me!

pino
24th August 2009, 11:42
Guys this thread is about Valencia GP not Schumacher, Senna and Prost...let's keep it on topic thank you :)

Saint Devote
24th August 2009, 11:47
Monte Carlo is glamorous - Valencia and Singapore are not.

Valencia is functional - a dockyard, picturesque in places.
Singapore is a glitzy old world colonial relic - sort of gin and tonic.

One does not find people clamoring for residency in Valencia or Singapore, only "Monaco baby, yeah!" :-]

And take a look where the yachts and beautiful girls gather, where the race track is undulating but is more like road circuit and where nobody complains and where the party places are world famous.

Its Monaco. Thats glamourous.

ioan
24th August 2009, 12:02
Valencia is functional - a dockyard, picturesque in places.
Singapore is a glitzy old world colonial relic - sort of gin and tonic.

One does not find people clamoring for residency in Valencia or Singapore, only "Monaco baby, yeah!" :-]

Nice pearl of ignorance from you! :laugh:

jimakos
24th August 2009, 12:11
Guys this thread is about Valencia GP not Schumacher, Senna and Prost...let's keep it on topic thank you :)

Moderator's job is working :)

F1boat
24th August 2009, 13:17
Monte Carlo is glamorous - Valencia and Singapore are not.


Everybody has an opinion, mate. I found Singapore amazing and I have to say that many of my friends who usually do not watch F1, follow the street races with great interest and like them far more than the typical Tilke tracks.

wedge
24th August 2009, 13:38
Valencia is functional - a dockyard, picturesque in places.


The pit buildings are the only thing that's interesting.

There's no glamour racing round an industrial estate.

Singapore is good. It's downtown and has functionality - busy expressways and metro running overhead. There's something about a motor race admist the downtown chaos.

Knock-on
24th August 2009, 14:34
I quite like Valencia for the location and think it will gain popularity with the Luvvies but from a racing point of view it is very dissapointing.

It just becomes a test of strategy and stamina; both car and personal.

callum122
24th August 2009, 15:58
I thought Valencia was a lovely track, visually pleasing (watching the race in HD helps :) ) and the camera shots are great.
2009 was a much better race than 2008.

Even though this means nothing, I give it my :up:

F1boat
24th August 2009, 18:30
It just becomes a test of strategy and stamina; both car and personal.

I like this...

truefan72
25th August 2009, 00:09
I quite like Valencia for the location and think it will gain popularity with the Luvvies but from a racing point of view it is very dissapointing.

It just becomes a test of strategy and stamina; both car and personal.

as is monaco, IMO a worse track than Valencia. its the surroundings and history that give monaco its charm, not the actual racing itself.

truefan72
25th August 2009, 00:15
I thought Valencia was a lovely track, visually pleasing (watching the race in HD helps :) ) and the camera shots are great.
2009 was a much better race than 2008.

Even though this means nothing, I give it my :up:


same here.
I watched my first race on HD with speed tv and my brand new 69inch sony vega and it looked amazing to me. A few more years, some improvements, perhaps a few trees planted around to liven up the scene, more construction and fantastic buildings, and it just might become the hotspot on the calendar. Valencia is a beautiful and modern city, blessed with great weather and beaches. it is a great location for an F1 race. a few more modifications of the track and it will be nearly perfect.

I like Singapore too. the scenery is amazing and the track does have spots to overtake

Saint Devote
25th August 2009, 03:50
Thing is though that I enjoyed the race last year and yesterday's race was even more enjoyable watching the race play out between Lewis and Rubens :-]

ShiftingGears
25th August 2009, 04:13
as is monaco, IMO a worse track than Valencia. its the surroundings and history that give monaco its charm, not the actual racing itself.

Monaco is an excellent circuit - to drive there flat out amongst all the elevation changes, bumps, and great variation of the corners faster than everyone else without tagging a wall is one of the ultimate driver challenges.

F1boat
25th August 2009, 07:35
Monaco is an excellent circuit - to drive there flat out amongst all the elevation changes, bumps, and great variation of the corners faster than everyone else without tagging a wall is one of the ultimate driver challenges.

I agree.

jimakos
25th August 2009, 07:54
Monaco is an excellent circuit - to drive there flat out amongst all the elevation changes, bumps, and great variation of the corners faster than everyone else without tagging a wall is one of the ultimate driver challenges.

100% agree :up:
How can I tell something bad about Monaco?
It's just the most enjoyable race of the year ;)

veeten
25th August 2009, 14:05
The best circuit that followed Monaco in design and function always was, and always will be, Long Beach.

Great racing, perfect weather (espeially for the start of the season) and always the 'beautiful people' and movers & shakers from Los Angeles and Hollywood gave it that extra something that only Monte Carlo could best.

It's the main reason why others have tried to emulate a similar theme, to mixed results.

F1boat
25th August 2009, 14:50
The best circuit that followed Monaco in design and function always was, and always will be, Long Beach.

Great racing, perfect weather (espeially for the start of the season) and always the 'beautiful people' and movers & shakers from Los Angeles and Hollywood gave it that extra something that only Monte Carlo could best.

It's the main reason why others have tried to emulate a similar theme, to mixed results.

LBGP is really cool and stiil rules with ALMS and IRL...