The future of Private WRC Teams ?

[Sulland]

Petter has said he will continue to run his own team, due to the freedom he feels it gives. Maybe others will start to see the same, and get out of all the team order business that to a certain degree destroys the fun of WRC !

Will we see more private teams in 2010, and maybe especially from 2011 onwards ?

[ProRally]

Specially with the S2000 World Cup, it give same privileges as works team, but more flexibility.

[grugsticles]

Personally I think works team should be banned.
IMO all they seem to do is create a huge bias and bad influence on the people making the decisions for the WRC. Look at Ford and Citroen nowadays, they get what they want because if they don't they threaten to leave.
I do like how the IRC is run, many teams using basically the same machinery. One or two teams dont seem to have a major say in what happens and it creates an equal championship for the fans. I do admit there are a couple of teams who seem to have the edge, but thats how all well run motor sport is - your at the top for a while until someone else beats you, at which point you strive to get that little bit faster.

I wouldnt mind if a manufacturer could sponsor/support a team, as long as there were budget restrictions in place.

I guess the downfall of private teams is the lack of development achieved. If a car is slow to start with, it will take a long time for that car to be up to speed where as works teams tend to have the resources to push development when required.

Just my opinion :)

[lcd]

More private teams will be reviving for the championship.
This Manufactors monarchy must end sometime..!

[jimakos]

More private teams will be reviving for the championship.
This Manufactors monarchy must end sometime..!

Absolutely right LCD.
In some years I think there will not be team tables!
Every driver will participating alone with his mechanics ;)

[N.O.T]

Official teams will never and should not be banned....they are the reason the sport evolved all these years, did you see any inovation from a private team??

Also when you spend millions in R&D you have to use the result to advertise yourself.....name a company of any kind that uses money just because it loves whats its doing, its all about profit guys....come back to reality

yuou want to see local heros go visit your village events in your country...want to see the best you have to have someone to believe in them and pay them to drive.

Private teams mean more rich guys like Rautenbach and less guys like loeb/hirvonen

[Tomi]

Agree with N.O.T. in general, but more private teams also bring more possibilities to guys who can drive aswell, i guess in the future there will be teams where 1 guy can drive and the other guy can pay.

[AndyRAC]

Which is why when new car regs/rules are drawn up, the cars must be as simple and as cheap as is possible. Then you can get lots of National/Club drivers entering their home round in cars similar to the 'stars'. As used to happen with the old Escort RS Mk I & II.

Won't happen mind you...

[JFL]

If Petter Solberg or another privateer won a rally in a C4 or a Focus in front of a works Ford or Citröen.. Would that look bad for Ford and Citröen? Would they sell less cars? It's still a Citröen or Ford.. They should be happy.. More teams driving their cars, and more competition.. Of course they have to deliever the same specs to all the teams..
I can understand why they won't an old Xsara to beat their new C4 or a "escort" beat the Focus.. But ..c'mon...

[N.O.T]

If Petter Solberg or another privateer won a rally in a C4 or a Focus in front of a works Ford or Citröen.. Would that look bad for Ford and Citröen? Would they sell less cars? It's still a Citröen or Ford.. They should be happy.. More teams driving their cars, and more competition.. Of course they have to deliever the same specs to all the teams..
I can understand why they won't an old Xsara to beat their new C4 or a "escort" beat the Focus.. But ..c'mon...

same old norwegian bitter boys..... and yes they would sell less cars.

[cali]

If Petter Solberg or another privateer won a rally in a C4 or a Focus in front of a works Ford or Citröen.. Would that look bad for Ford and Citröen? Would they sell less cars? It's still a Citröen or Ford.. They should be happy.. More teams driving their cars, and more competition.. Of course they have to deliever the same specs to all the teams..
I can understand why they won't an old Xsara to beat their new C4 or a "escort" beat the Focus.. But ..c'mon...

It is not possible for Petter to beat Loeb in a same car, he can only beat Sordo IMO. Much more interesting would be Loeb vs. Bosse in a equal C4

[N.O.T]

why is C4 better than the ford ???

[r199]

every car is better than the c4 and that is kind a easy to explain the c4 is build for s loeb only just like thay did in f1 whit ferarri and shummi
thay are the best in the car but no other driver can go as fast in the same car thay build them only for 1 driver his riding style

[cali]

why is C4 better than the ford ???
i did not say that or did i?

[Sulland]

It works fine in IRC, that a non works car can win.

Even if they have a non works team policy, Kronos, Abarth and Skoda is pretty close....

Problem is of course that the factory controls the engine brain software, and that they can give you a verison that have 2nd or 3rd best configuration.

So if yiu have a private team you also need a programmer on your staff to be able to win. Sad but true !!
The "Black Box" need to be standard to fix this one !

[bt52b]

Maybe manufacturer shouldn't be allowed to own more than 49% of a team and manufacturer driver contracts should be banned outright.

Manufacturers should have to supply more cars than they do now.

Price of cars has to come down, even the new S2000 based WRC is probably too expensive.

They have to make the championship alot more robust to the whims of manufacturer marketing dept's.

[BDunnell]

If Petter Solberg or another privateer won a rally in a C4 or a Focus in front of a works Ford or Citröen.. Would that look bad for Ford and Citröen? Would they sell less cars? It's still a Citröen or Ford..

And no-one's watching, so it doesn't matter.

[AndyRAC]

And no-one's watching, so it doesn't matter.

Ouch!! Harsh, but I'm afraid very fair!

[jonkka]

Which is why when new car regs/rules are drawn up, the cars must be as simple and as cheap as is possible. Then you can get lots of National/Club drivers entering their home round in cars similar to the 'stars'.

I do not agree for number of reasons.

First, many manufacturers like Peugeot, Ford and Subaru for example have repeatedly said that they are not interested in of championship with low-level tech or extensive use of control components. They are in the sport to demonstrate their technological superiority and engineering excellence. For Ford and Subaru this opinion is understandable because those are represented by outsourced specialist whose bread and butter is largely dependent on the tech level. The higher that is, better they can justify their large expenses.

Secondly, WRC is supposedly the top level rallying championship in the world. It would hardly serve a purpose to contest World Championship in a kiddie car, would it? Cars must be exciting enough to ignite imagination of the general public. Admittedly, this varies a lot depending on the person.

Thirdly, having a long line of also-runs (the national entrants or club rally drivers) in a WRC event is not desirable. You do not see karting drivers entering F1 races or old men entering the green after Tiger Woods. A WRC round is supposed to be a professional sporting event, thus a very exclusive club. I understand that from historical and at times from practical point of view some want to compete in same event than their heroes but time is past such socialism.

Having said this I think you have a point in keeping the costs in check so that top level rally car formula, whichever it may be (2.0T now or 1.6T in the future), would also be a basis for club man's rally car in some form. That way upgrading would be possible, making the ladder championship ideology so much easier and R&D effort could extend further than just one class.

[jonkka]

I can understand why they won't an old Xsara to beat their new C4 or a "escort" beat the Focus.. But ..c'mon...

Because that decision is not made by Chairman of the Ford Motor Company or PSA (Peugeot-Citroen), not even their marketing chief but instead boss of the motorsport team. And ego of these men won't allow their official team to lose to a privateer. If they would, the Chairman (or the marketing chief) who controls their budget would very soon ask a question that'd be very difficult to answer:

Explain why I need you and your big budget if we can win with privateers and save money in the process?

[BDunnell]

I do not agree for number of reasons.

First, many manufacturers like Peugeot, Ford and Subaru for example have repeatedly said that they are not interested in of championship with low-level tech or extensive use of control components. They are in the sport to demonstrate their technological superiority and engineering excellence. For Ford and Subaru this opinion is understandable because those are represented by outsourced specialist whose bread and butter is largely dependent on the tech level. The higher that is, better they can justify their large expenses.

Do most of the people watching care about any of this? No. As I have written in a thread about BMW withdrawing from F1, my view is that the technical specification of the championship ought not to concern a manufacturer so long as they have suitable equipment - and, in touring cars and rallying, marketing strategies for the particular models used in competition. Your average car buyer doesn't care about this issue of technical superiority, and thus there is no adverse effect on the bottom line. It's the same bottom line that drives their decision on whether or not to participate.

[AndyRAC]

I do not agree for number of reasons.

First, many manufacturers like Peugeot, Ford and Subaru for example have repeatedly said that they are not interested in of championship with low-level tech or extensive use of control components. They are in the sport to demonstrate their technological superiority and engineering excellence. For Ford and Subaru this opinion is understandable because those are represented by outsourced specialist whose bread and butter is largely dependent on the tech level. The higher that is, better they can justify their large expenses.

Secondly, WRC is supposedly the top level rallying championship in the world. It would hardly serve a purpose to contest World Championship in a kiddie car, would it? Cars must be exciting enough to ignite imagination of the general public. Admittedly, this varies a lot depending on the person.

Thirdly, having a long line of also-runs (the national entrants or club rally drivers) in a WRC event is not desirable. You do not see karting drivers entering F1 races or old men entering the green after Tiger Woods. A WRC round is supposed to be a professional sporting event, thus a very exclusive club. I understand that from historical and at times from practical point of view some want to compete in same event than their heroes but time is past such socialism.

Having said this I think you have a point in keeping the costs in check so that top level rally car formula, whichever it may be (2.0T now or 1.6T in the future), would also be a basis for club man's rally car in some form. That way upgrading would be possible, making the ladder championship ideology so much easier and R&D effort could extend further than just one class.

While I understand were you're coming from, the reason the WRC is in it's current mess is because of all the hi-tech cars, which are prohibitively expensive. Yes, they are fantastic pieces of kit, but in the main, have very little relevance to the man in the street when he buys his next car. Personally, leave all the hi-tech stuff to F1, for the immediate future, at least. The sport needs many cars, Manufacturers, drivers as possible for it to succeed, another Ford v Citroen is going to do nothing for the sport, except another snoozefest.

As for your other point about keeping the Professionals separate from the Amateurs, again I disagree. I do agree your point is valid, but one of Rallying's big strengths was the chance for a 'humble amateur' to take on the worlds best drivers - something that most other sports can't do. This was something Dave Richards suggested, and I can't say it went down too well here in UK - In fact most of his ideas, while well meaning, have turned out to be wrong, you can't turn WRC into F1 on Gravel - it's completely different, and should stay like this.

In the end though, I think we all want a competitive, exciting Championship, that people want to flock to watch, TV/Radio/Papers want to cover, etc and with different Rallies over Night/Day, 2/3/4/5 days etc - at the moment, very few people care about the current WRC, and that is pretty serious.

[jonkka]

As I have written in a thread about BMW withdrawing from F1, my view is that the technical specification of the championship ought not to concern a manufacturer so long as they have suitable equipment - and, in touring cars and rallying, marketing strategies for the particular models used in competition.

This is interesting point and has many facets. For example, a simple question "should the sports-related marketing efforts have any connection to marketed product itself at all"?

If answer is no, then it's wiser for the manufacturer to spend their marketing budget to high-profile high-visibility events, for example Hyundai sponsored football world championships couple of years back or Volvo having a sailing race bearing their name (admittedly, Volvo also manufactures marine engines). And that would be quite detrimental to any WRC involvement, would it not?

If answer is yes, there are so many ways to do that but for sake of simpilicity, let's concentrate only on a motorsport campaign. If manufacturer enters a series, they can get two kinds of rewards for that. One, they get overall recognition as a brand. This is primarily F1 stuff where there aren't any identifiable products present, but takes place also place in silhoutte classes. Secondly, they promote a specific model that is involved with the given series.

Most followers know very well that the competition vehicle has little, if anything at all to do with the actual product they might be able to buy. So, in the end even the specific model promotion boils down to brand promotion, creating an image of success. And people are attracted to success - which is why marketing works the way it works (ie. idols of various sorts tell you that this brand of cola is better and sales increase).

Now, knowing this - you're correct. Even if all cars were made of standard control components and would only have distinct bodyshell and logo, this type of marketing would still work - to a degree. But what would corporate R&D say? "Hey big boss, we can do better product than the other guy, let's go to that series where we can prove that". Even if the average Joe wouldn't care, the corporate guys are so blinded by their own brand that it's likely this would happen.

One question we (or at least I) do not have answer is "what level of tech is optimal, knowing the various factors".

[jonkka]

The sport needs many cars, Manufacturers, drivers as possible for it to succeed, another Ford v Citroen is going to do nothing for the sport, except another snoozefest.

This is a point with which I fully agree. However, how to address the problem is much more difficult. If lack of blood would be down to costs alone, why the hideously expensive F1 has lost only handful of teams while WRC has lost seven (=78%) over past ten years? One would expect that the highest costing series would lose more and lower cost series would benefit from those that scale their efforts down and step to a lower series?

It is entirely possible that WRC is considered to give less per paid dollar than F1, making it relatively more expensive even though being absolutely cheaper. For now, let's see how FIA chairman election turns out and which of the proposed or decided changes will actually be implemented.


As for your other point about keeping the Professionals separate from the Amateurs, again I disagree. I do agree your point is valid, but one of Rallying's big strengths was the chance for a 'humble amateur' to take on the worlds best drivers - something that most other sports can't do.

Like I said, I understand that some people want this for traditional or financial reasons. But nobody has yet said why this phenomena would actually be "rallying's big strength"? Or explained to me why fat club driver in a N1 Skoda Felicia could actually consider "taking on" the top drivers? J/PWRC entries with couple of wild cars is enough for that, I think that half of the 90 crews strong Rally Finland entries are unnecessary, not to mention the 200+ entries in Monte Carlo and Rally GB decades ago.

It might be wiser for me to be silent about this as it's dangerously close to a hornet's nest... ;)

[AndyRAC]

This is a point with which I fully agree. However, how to address the problem is much more difficult. If lack of blood would be down to costs alone, why the hideously expensive F1 has lost only handful of teams while WRC has lost seven (=78%) over past ten years? One would expect that the highest costing series would lose more and lower cost series would benefit from those that scale their efforts down and step to a lower series?

It is entirely possible that WRC is considered to give less per paid dollar than F1, making it relatively more expensive even though being absolutely cheaper. For now, let's see how FIA chairman election turns out and which of the proposed or decided changes will actually be implemented.

I'd say it's hugely less per paid dollar than F1 - There just isn't the exposure, in fact it's not even close. You'll probably get more exposure running at the back in F1 than winning in WRC. Sad, but very probably true. Take the last 2 days, BMW pulling out/Schumacher's return - not just Sports news stories, but stories making 'normal' news bulletins. The only time Rallying makes the news is following a tragedy.

If you're the boss of a Manufacturer - what series do you go for - it's a no-brainer - sadly!


Like I said, I understand that some people want this for traditional or financial reasons. But nobody has yet said why this phenomena would actually be "rallying's big strength"? Or explained to me why fat club driver in a N1 Skoda Felicia could actually consider "taking on" the top drivers? J/PWRC entries with couple of wild cars is enough for that, I think that half of the 90 crews strong Rally Finland entries are unnecessary, not to mention the 200+ entries in Monte Carlo and Rally GB decades ago.

It might be wiser for me to be silent about this as it's dangerously close to a hornet's nest... ;)

Mmm, very possibly..... ;)

[Sulland]

And what is the latest fashion amongst the drivers, yes to drive Escort MkII's in their spare time - for fun, and because they love the feeling of a simple rear drive drive car they can slide.

Phil Mills even made his own company building them: http://vikingmotorsport.com/

How many of us would drop everything and fly to Finland tomorrow if all of the top drivers were to change their current car for a MkII for this rally ?

Rally is not only about the cars, its also about entertainment, and seing a MkII in full opposite lock through a S-Combination is amazing !

If it is about selling cars, 90% of cars sold are still 2wd. So maybe RWD could be the new F2 class - a keep it simple class. The drivers and spectators would love it !

[Lousada]

If every car could score manufacturer points all these stupid "private-team" problems would go away.

[Saabaru]

every car is better than the c4 and that is kind a easy to explain the c4 is build for s loeb only just like thay did in f1 whit ferarri and shummi
thay are the best in the car but no other driver can go as fast in the same car thay build them only for 1 driver his riding style

There are reasons for this, not every c4 is like loebs.

[N.O.T]

if you want simple cars and simple drivers go watch village events.....

Competition brings evolution...... the car manufacturers don;t care about spectators they care about winning and having nice advertisements the next day saying we are the best because we won....its how economy works.....when you sell something you try to be the best possible so people buy it and you can feed your family with the money you earn.

Ford made the MKII escort because they evolved the MKI....now why they did this ?? because they loved us rally spectators so much ?????