recovering from injury

[Sonic]

Massa's current situation got me to thinking about drivers who have returned from serious injury and how their form was affected (if at all). The last driver I can recall being in a coma after a shunt was wendlinger in'94. IIRC he did return but was never the same driver again.

Lauda is another obvious example and aside from those early races after his return seemed to be largely the same behind the wheel.

Any other examples?

[ioan]

There were other drivers that were in a coma after an accident. Most recent that I remember is Da Matta, and he was in coma for months.

Hakkinen also was in come for some time after his accident in Oz, he also did well after that.

[christophulus]

A former F1 driver - Alex Zanardi is doing well in the WTCC after losing both legs in that horrific crash.

[Mark]

Well the most recent is Mark Webber after fracturing his leg in the off-season.

However I'd say breaking your leg is rather different to life threatening head injuries.

They are talking about Massa's eye being a problem, question is can you race with one eye? Serious question, I don't know!

[ArrowsFA1]

Helmut Marko suffered a career-ending eye injury when a stone pierced his visor during the 1972 French GP.

[ioan]

Well the most recent is Mark Webber after fracturing his leg in the off-season.

However I'd say breaking your leg is rather different to life threatening head injuries.

They are talking about Massa's eye being a problem, question is can you race with one eye? Serious question, I don't know!

There was this British minister or whatever who raced at Le Mans last month with some vision impairment.

[Dave B]

While it's fascinating to look back at drivers who have made successful (or otherwise) recoveries, I'd advise caution against using previous cases to forecast how Massa might fare.

Head injuries are the strangest thing: strike two people in the same place with the same force and one might barely notice while it proves fatal for the other.

It's bad enough when the armchair experts round here assume they know it all about racing, but that's part of and parcel of a motorsports forum. They should know better that to start speculating about medical conditions.

[Sonic]

There were other drivers that were in a coma after an accident. Most recent that I remember is Da Matta, and he was in coma for months.

Hakkinen also was in come for some time after his accident in Oz, he also did well after that.

doh! How did I manage to forget that?!? And I call myself a fan! I hereby put myself in the corner. :p

[ArrowsFA1]

While it's fascinating to look back at drivers who have made successful (or otherwise) recoveries, I'd advise caution against using previous cases to forecast how Massa might fare.
Good point :up:

[Firstgear]

DC survived a plane crash, and although I don't remember if he was injured, it could still be called a near death experience. I think he drove better after that, as it probably made him realize how precious life really is.

If (and I hope) Massa recovers completely I don't think it will change him as a driver, as he was knocked out before he knew what was happening and has no memory of the accident. He won't be mentally traumatized if he didn't see and feel the accident due to his being unconcious.

Becoming a father may change him though, after an experience like this.

[christophulus]

While it's fascinating to look back at drivers who have made successful (or otherwise) recoveries, I'd advise caution against using previous cases to forecast how Massa might fare.


Very true, I'm sure we're all aware that Massa isn't 100% certain to fully recover. Nonetheless, the reports coming out of the hospital have been generally positive so there is cause to be somewhat optimistic.

[JasonD]

They are talking about Massa's eye being a problem, question is can you race with one eye? Serious question, I don't know!

Nope, depth perception would be all messed up. One COULD learn to compensate while driving a regular street car however I highly doubt you could compensate for F1 speeds. Not to mention there would also be a blind spot and the amount of head turn required to compensate for that would be to much.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Richard Hammond. He's driven F1 cars after his accident.

[Nem14]

The list of drivers that have fully regained their form following serious head injury is very, very short.

As far as other injuries, these drivers are very fit, very motivated, and have the financial resources to secure the best medical care available.

[Saint Devote]

Having children has nothing to do with being a racing driver. Lots of top drivers have raced after their wife or girlfriend produced children.

And the most remarkable of those recovered and gone on to race was Niki Lauda. In a few days is the 33rd anniversary of his crash at Bergwerk - and his story is remarkable.

He was given the last rites and disclosed that he could not move but was aware of the priest - he said he wanted to punch the priests jaw because he, Niki Lauda, was NOT going to die!

Six weeks later he returned and finished fourth at Monza - the blood soaked balaclava is well known.

The only affect ever came in teh last race of the year at Mount Fuji, when Niki decided to withdraw because conditions were too dangerous.

Even Ferrari understood that after what Lauda had been through, this was understandable despite it deciding definitely the championship.

But Niki Lauda went on to win his third world title in 1984 and there have also been resultant health issues in recent years that stemmed from that crash.

Niki deserves immense respect - never the sentimentalist and with a wonderfully dark sense of humor, he was the Nuvolari of his time.

Those of us fortunate enough to have seen him race will always cherish and remember those precise lines, definitive passing manuvers and dominant victories.

[Saint Devote]

Did anyone mention Stirling Moss? His head/eye injury finished Moss's career because his ability had "left" him.

[Ari]

There were other drivers that were in a coma after an accident. Most recent that I remember is Da Matta, and he was in coma for months.

Hakkinen also was in come for some time after his accident in Oz, he also did well after that.

They actually have a bit of a photo wall at The Alfred hospital which helped him in Australia. Being only a couple minutes from the track they believe was a huge factor in him being saved. In addition The Alfred is one of the best hospitals in Australia for neural which is what he required.

They have a graphic photo wall of how he looked when he came in and then how he looked when he left. VERY interesting stuff. There's also this huge signed framed poster which a touching message from Mika on it.

[woody2goody]

Having children has nothing to do with being a racing driver. Lots of top drivers have raced after their wife or girlfriend produced children.

And the most remarkable of those recovered and gone on to race was Niki Lauda. In a few days is the 33rd anniversary of his crash at Bergwerk - and his story is remarkable.

He was given the last rites and disclosed that he could not move but was aware of the priest - he said he wanted to punch the priests jaw because he, Niki Lauda, was NOT going to die!

Six weeks later he returned and finished fourth at Monza - the blood soaked balaclava is well known.

The only affect ever came in teh last race of the year at Mount Fuji, when Niki decided to withdraw because conditions were too dangerous.

Even Ferrari understood that after what Lauda had been through, this was understandable despite it deciding definitely the championship.

But Niki Lauda went on to win his third world title in 1984 and there have also been resultant health issues in recent years that stemmed from that crash.

Niki deserves immense respect - never the sentimentalist and with a wonderfully dark sense of humor, he was the Nuvolari of his time.

Those of us fortunate enough to have seen him race will always cherish and remember those precise lines, definitive passing manuvers and dominant victories.

I think that's probably the king of all comebacks, to finish fourth in any race is an achievement, but six weeks after his death was almost certain? Immense. I think he talks nonsense now, but that doesn't matter, he's a great champion.

[ArrowsFA1]

Did anyone mention Stirling Moss? His head/eye injury finished Moss's career because his ability had "left" him.
IIRC Sir Stirling felt he may have attempted to comeback too soon. He tested at Goodwood in the year following his accident and although his times were competitive he felt he was having to think about driving in a way he hadn't had to before. Perhaps the effects of his injuries were not fully understood at the time, but he made the decision there and then.

[Sonic]

Did anyone mention Stirling Moss? His head/eye injury finished Moss's career because his ability had "left" him.

Good point. I don't recall the date of this quote but I believe it is an approximation of something Stirling said.

"I'm still flat. But I'm flat with my toes lifting."

I took that to mean. I can still be as fast as I was before but I have to think to make it happen whereas before it was automatic.

BTW St. D I think having children does change some (not all) drivers. Certainly from my POV I haven't raced since the birth of my first child - and although I miss it I would feel very much like that Moss quote. I'd feel like I was forcing something I used to do naturally.

[ioan]

Having children has nothing to do with being a racing driver. Lots of top drivers have raced after their wife or girlfriend produced children.

I don't know about it where you live, but around here we don't 'produce' children. :rolleyes:

[Sonic]

I don't know about it where you live, but around here we don't 'produce' children. :rolleyes:

:p

[V12]

Juan Manuel Fangio was injured badly in a non-championship race at Monza at the start of 1952 and missed the rest of the year. He returned for 1953 with a Maserati that was clear second best to the Ferraris, but won the last championship race that year, also at Monza, before rattling off four championships on the trot from 1954-57.

But in terms of both speed of recovery relative to the injuries, and immediate competitiveness once back, I can't think of anything in F1 that can top Lauda's recovery. To be given the last rites, return to the cockpit within a matter of weeks, come within a point of holding on to the title and to then win it the following year really is remarkable.

Also about Moss, I was reading a book of his once, where he said that he felt he made his "comeback" test too early. He felt his ability had deserted him, but later on this wasn't the case. I can't remember why he decided against a comeback later in the 60s, whether it was down to being out of the cockpit for so long, or age (although he is 3 years younger than Jack Brabham who raced, competitively, until 1970).

Not forgetting Michael Schumacher either in '99, who came back seemingly completely unaffected by his leg break other than the fact it buggered up his championship challenge and left him "returning the favour" to Irvine at the end of the year.

EDIT: D'oh, just seen Arrows' post about Sir Stirling's "too early" comeback. IIRC the book I saw he mentioned it in was "My Cars My Career" or something similar, if anyone has it knocking about.

[ioan]

JBut in terms of both speed of recovery relative to the injuries, and immediate competitiveness once back, I can't think of anything in F1 that can top Lauda's recovery. To be given the last rites, return to the cockpit within a matter of weeks, come within a point of holding on to the title and to then win it the following year really is remarkable.

I don't think that we can compare an accident where the consequences are rather aesthetic with one where the consequences mean that the driver loses his acuity and reflexes due to his brain being damaged.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I don't know about it where you live, but around here we don't 'produce' children. :rolleyes:

It's quite a common turn of phrase in the UK.

[ioan]

It's quite a common turn of phrase in the UK.

That's sad.

[BeansBeansBeans]

That's sad.

Why? You seem to be attaching negative connotations to it that aren't really there.

[Mark]

There are aspects of all languages which appear strange when translated literally. There are some standard phrases in French for example, which when directly translated to English would seem rude at best.

[ioan]

Why? You seem to be attaching negative connotations to it that aren't really there.

Because a woman does not produce a child, it gives birth.
Why's that? Because she isn't some kind of child production factory, she's a human being. And saying that women produce children is highly dis-considering for any woman.

This is my POV about this matter.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Because a woman does not produce a child, it gives birth.
Why's that? Because she isn't some kind of child production factory, it's a human being. And saying that women produce children is highly dis-considering for any woman.

This is my POV about this matter.

I'd say referring to a woman as 'it' was even more dis-considering (sic), but ignore me, English is just my native language.

[ioan]

I'd say referring to a woman as 'it' was even more dis-considering (sic), but ignore me, English is just my native language.

Oups, sorry for that slip. I'll correct it ASAP. (notice that I only slipped once out of the two occasions).

[Valve Bounce]

It's quite a common turn of phrase in the UK.

I can vouch for that. When I was there back in the nineties, I remember Tesco had a special on where you get two for the price of one.

[Mark]

I'd say referring to a woman as 'it' was even more dis-considering (sic), but ignore me, English is just my native language.

Not Geordie? :p

[markabilly]

"I'm still flat. But I'm flat with my toes lifting."

I took that to mean. I can still be as fast as I was before but I have to think to make it happen whereas before it was automatic.

.
I thought it meant that he was making himself go flat out, but part of him was trying to say, no, not that flat out, too much danger, as in just losing the edge, where now you worry about what it really is like to hit a tree, rather than just dismissing the possibility that it could happen to me......

[BeansBeansBeans]

Not Geordie? :p

Ah divven't knarr what youse are on aboot marra.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I thought it meant that he was making himself go flat out, but part of him was trying to say, no, not that flat out, too much danger, as in just losing the edge, where now you worry about what it really is like to hit a tree, rather than just dismissing the possibility that it could happen to me......

I've heard drivers say that their 'leg got shorter' as they approached a corner. Meaning that although they were trying to take it flat, something in their subconcrious was causing them to lift slightly.

[markabilly]

I've heard drivers say that their 'leg got shorter' as they approached a corner. Meaning that although they were trying to take it flat, something in their subconcrious was causing them to lift slightly.
yeah when i was young, i never had that feeling, ever (and again i hate to admit it, the danger was part of the thrill) but you see other things, people being wasted doing something they hated with no other choice, or an abrupt wake up call to reality----it starts to change things.

i still love being in the zone, but.....

[V12]

I don't think that we can compare an accident where the consequences are rather aesthetic with one where the consequences mean that the driver loses his acuity and reflexes due to his brain being damaged.

Good point, I suppose most of the cases that spring to my mind of a driver being not quite what they once were after an accident have involved brain injury, Wendlinger, Roberto Guerrero in IndyCar are two that spring to mind.

[Sonic]

I thought it meant that he was making himself go flat out, but part of him was trying to say, no, not that flat out, too much danger, as in just losing the edge, where now you worry about what it really is like to hit a tree, rather than just dismissing the possibility that it could happen to me......

You put it much better than I did but that was also my impression. :)

[Hondo]

When I learned of the severity of the injury, I as always in these cases, thought of Neil Bonnett, and don't think Massa will race again.

Neil was a NASCAR driver, one of the original "Alabama Gang". Neil incurred a major head injury and stayed out of racing for many years, doing quite well with commentaries, product endorsements, and even had his own successful tv show. But Neil had to get back in the car and did make a return including an airborne, flipover wreck that he crawled out of, waving to the crowd. People liked Neil, a very pleasent man. A few races later, Neil went into a wall that by NASCAR standards was nothing much more than a mere tap. we waited, but he never came out of the car alive. His brain had taken one sudden stop too many and had given up.

Everyone's limit is different and the only way to find the limit is to exceed it. I hope Massa retires and stays out of race cars.

[JasonD]

When I learned of the severity of the injury, I as always in these cases, thought of Neil Bonnett, and don't think Massa will race again.

Neil was a NASCAR driver, one of the original "Alabama Gang". Neil incurred a major head injury and stayed out of racing for many years, doing quite well with commentaries, product endorsements, and even had his own successful tv show. But Neil had to get back in the car and did make a return including an airborne, flipover wreck that he crawled out of, waving to the crowd. People liked Neil, a very pleasent man. A few races later, Neil went into a wall that by NASCAR standards was nothing much more than a mere tap. we waited, but he never came out of the car alive. His brain had taken one sudden stop too many and had given up.

Everyone's limit is different and the only way to find the limit is to exceed it. I hope Massa retires and stays out of race cars.

By that logic they sould all hang it up then and we should all tune in and watch reruns of Seinfeld. :rolleyes:

[Hondo]

No, by that logic, serious head injuries, especially when they induce a coma to keep you from moving about, are dangerous things with unpredicable side effects. As he hadn't suffered any side effects in years, Neil wanted to drive again and did so. His choice, he knew the risks and took his chances.

From a selfish point of view, I wish he hadn't done so. I hope for Massa'a sake he is able to redirect his energies and move on to something else.