Israel uses the same excuses again and again

[Eki]

I'm sure it was a deliberate act to destroy Palestinian infrastructure:

http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/07/finn_church_aid_disatisfied_with_israeli_response_ 878014.html


Finn Church Aid Disatisfied with Israeli Response
published today 04:13 PM

Finn Church Aid(FCA) is not satisfied with an explanation given by Israeli authorities concerning the destruction of a clinic in Gaza. The clinic built with aid provided by the FCA was destroyed in a missile attack in January.
The Israeli Army says it was unaware that a clinic was operating in the building. It claimed Hamas used the premises as an arms store.
According to the Chief Physician of the clinic, no Hamas troops were in the building at the time. The building was also clearly marked as a clinic.
FCA Director of International Co-operation, Pauliina Parhiala, emphasized a strike on a humanitarian target was never defendable.
FCA is a partner organisation of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs in Finland and part of the international aid network. The organization was established by the Finnish Evangelical Lutheran Church.

YLE

[SportscarBruce]

It's good to be chosen...

[Eki]

The Israeli Army says it was unaware that a clinic was operating in the building. It claimed Hamas used the premises as an arms store.
It's funny that the Israeli Army didn't know there was a clinic, but they "knew" there was a Hamas arms store. Did they believe that the big white cross painted on the roof was cross-hair aim indicating a Hamas arms store?

[Easy Drifter]

" no Hamas troops were in the building at that time."
Bolding mine.
In other words not denying that Hamas did at times use the building.

[Eki]

" no Hamas troops were in the building at that time."
Bolding mine.
In other words not denying that Hamas did at times use the building.
Maybe, if they needed to use the clinic services. But the possibility that Hamas members may visit the clinic occassionally isn't a good enough reason to destroy it IMO.

[SportscarBruce]

Maybe, if they needed to use the clinic services. But the possibility that Hamas members may visit the clinic occassionally isn't a good enough reason to destroy it IMO.

Akin to bombing a NYC hospital because members of the mafia were spotted within.

[Drew]

It's funny that the Israeli Army didn't know there was a clinic, but they "knew" there was a Hamas arms store. Did they believe that the big white cross painted on the roof was cross-hair aim indicating a Hamas arms store?

Because Hamas arms stores normally have their own symbol on top of them? Seems like FCA ought to make their actions more open, including telling Israeli authorities

[steve_spackman]

I'm sure it was a deliberate act to destroy Palestinian infrastructure:

http://www.yle.fi/uutiset/news/2009/07/finn_church_aid_disatisfied_with_israeli_response_ 878014.html

Well to be honest im not shocked at all by what the terror state Israel does anymore....

[Roamy]

EKI They read all your posts on this forum. They thought perhaps you would be visiting so they took the Liberty of trying to get a terrorist.

[Rollo]

I'm sure it was a deliberate act to destroy Palestinian infrastructure

I'm also sure that it was a deliberate act to destroy Palestinian infrastructure. Then again when you have Hamas in government which has as Article 1 its Charter "the destruction of the State of Israel and to establish an Islamic state in the whole of Palestine" then you can not hold Palestine up as some shining beacon.

This is just another tick of the clock or barbarism. There are no "goodies" or "baddies" here, they're all baddies.

The fact that you keep on favouring any side in this conflict either indicates that you have not learnt history or refuse to learn the lessons that it teaches.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.

[anthonyvop]

OMG


no Hamas troops were in the building at the time. The building was also clearly marked as a clinic.
Those evil Israelis.

Everybody knows that Hamas Terrorists wear bright orange shirts with the words "Terrorist" emblazoned on the back and front.
They would never take advantage of useful idiots from country like....say.......Finland.
To think that terrorists would use something like a clinic to stage attacks from and hide is preposterous.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5oesBeCFAlg

[Tazio]

I think the mere fact that they are Protestant Evangelists they should be put up against a wall and shot!
I suspect it may be different in Finland. Plus these are Lutherans.
But Evangelical Baptists in the US are a pain in the @ss
And of course I am being facetious, because I respect their right to worship!
But they are by definition tasked to spread the "Good News" to the evil pagans.
In my book they are another group of religious nutters.
They are extremely coercive in the Bible Belt of my country,
George W Bush NEVER would have gotten elected without their "Blessing".
But in defense of dubaya he didn't come through with any of the faith based initiatives
he whipped this flock into a frenzy over!

[Eki]

I suspect it may be different in Finland. Plus these are Lutherans.
!
Yes, about 80% of Finns belong to the Lutheran church, but most are not very religious. And even the religious ones aren't very vocal. The church can even be quite tolerant these days. Just recently a Lutheran priest had a sex change operation from man to woman and they let him keep his job. And according to the Finnish law, the President of Finland is automatically the head of the Lutheran church, and she doesn't even belong to any church!!! But then again, she's also the head of the Armed Forces, while she's never done any military service.

[SportscarBruce]

EKI They read all your posts on this forum.

Eki;

Figure out who really runs NASCAR Inc and that statement isn't as silly as it sounds.

Thanks fousto!

[Tazio]

Yes, about 80% of Finns belong to the Lutheran church, but most are not very religious. And even the religious ones aren't very vocal. The church can even be quite tolerant these days. Just recently a Lutheran priest had a sex change operation from man to woman and they let him keep his job. And according to the Finnish law, the President of Finland is automatically the head of the Lutheran church, and she doesn't even belong to any church!!! But then again, she's also the head of the Armed Forces, while she's never done any military service.
Thanks for that explanation.
They put themselves in harm’s way for selfless reasons, with good intentions.
At least you didn't have any of your countrymen come home in body bags as a result of this unfortunate event.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I'm also sure that it was a deliberate act to destroy Palestinian infrastructure. Then again when you have Hamas in government which has as Article 1 its Charter "the destruction of the State of Israel and to establish an Islamic state in the whole of Palestine" then you can not hold Palestine up as some shining beacon.

This is just another tick of the clock or barbarism. There are no "goodies" or "baddies" here, they're all baddies.

The fact that you keep on favouring any side in this conflict either indicates that you have not learnt history or refuse to learn the lessons that it teaches.
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.
Thank you Rollo for at least being a voice of reality on this one. I am so tired of reading one post after another telling me about how bad the Israeli's are without any condemnation of the Palestinians.

I have said it before and will say it again, all of this stops when then Palestinians and other Muslim factions (Hezbollah) in the area stop using violence as a means to an end, that is the end of Israel.

Israel aint going anywhere, so if you persist in fighting with them, they will fight back and do stupid things like blow up a bunch of bricks that belong to some Finnish Lutherin do-good types who mean well but obviously have come from the same naive strain of DNA Eki comes from....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Israel doesn't always do the right thing, but they are no more evil than most of the Muslim world. The problem is, the people who persist in keeping this war going are NOT the Israeli's. Israel would be far better off if they didn't have to devote a large portion of their GNP on defense and security issues.....so spare me this fiction they want to fight for the sake of it.

No...they are clumsy and often cruel but that is part of winning a war. It always has to go back though to where the fight started and why it is happening and who really is benefitting. When you are objective, you realize Muslim extermists and the dictators of the Arab world are the only ones gaining by peristing in this nonsense of the denial of the right of Israel to exist, for it suits their domestic political agendas and gives something to the masses who are focused on hating the Jews rather than the oppressive crooks that run their world. Read a little Orwell and you understand this...

[Hazell B]

Well to be honest im not shocked at all by what the terror state Israel does anymore....


I'm just reading a book about it, mainly aimed at the arms trade to the conflict and who supplied those arms.

In short, we did :(

Then when the Israelis didn't/don't pay for their arms, the Brit tax payer got/gets to underwrite the bill :(

Is there any winner in this mess (beside the arms companies)?

[Drew]

I'm just reading a book about it, mainly aimed at the arms trade to the conflict and who supplied those arms.

In short, we did :(

Then when the Israelis didn't/don't pay for their arms, the Brit tax payer got/gets to underwrite the bill :(

Is there any winner in this mess (beside the arms companies)?

Israel, Israelis and the Israeli government?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Israel, Israelis and the Israeli government?

They only win when people stop trying to kill them. Spending more than 10% of your GNP on defence isn't good for your economic health....

[Eki]

They only win when people stop trying to kill them. Spending more than 10% of your GNP on defence isn't good for your economic health....
Wouldn't it then make sense to stay put, instead of emigrating to Israel? Anyone who emigrates to Israel and then complains about terrorism is an idiot IMO.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Wouldn't it then make sense to stay put, instead of emigrating to Israel? Anyone who emigrates to Israel and then complains about terrorism is an idiot IMO.

So what you are really saying is terrorism against Israeli's is ok but against Arabs is not? That fits with your usual grasp or lack therof of reality.

People who often have emigrated to Israel are coming from worst hell's, but that doesn't deny them right to survive and not have some brainwashed teen with a bomb around her waist blowing them up because they are Jewish.

I guess you only feel defense of your nation and person only counts if it your family and it is your neighbourhood in Finland. The fact that some poor schmo from Russia who flees to try to make a better life in Israel gets blown up isn't worthy of your sympathy? You are a man of the people Eki, just which people is the question.

[steve_spackman]

Wouldn't it then make sense to stay put, instead of emigrating to Israel? Anyone who emigrates to Israel and then complains about terrorism is an idiot IMO.

I actually agree with you on this Eki. People around the world no matter where you are from know whats going on in that region.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I actually agree with you on this Eki. People around the world no matter where you are from know whats going on in that region.

AS I said, I guess it is ok to blow up people if they move to a nation if they are of the religion you don't like? Nice theory Steve....

[Eki]

So what you are really saying is terrorism against Israeli's is ok but against Arabs is not? That fits with your usual grasp or lack therof of reality.

People who often have emigrated to Israel are coming from worst hell's, but that doesn't deny them right to survive and not have some brainwashed teen with a bomb around her waist blowing them up because they are Jewish.

I guess you only feel defense of your nation and person only counts if it your family and it is your neighbourhood in Finland. The fact that some poor schmo from Russia who flees to try to make a better life in Israel gets blown up isn't worthy of your sympathy? You are a man of the people Eki, just which people is the question.
Many of the most hard line Israelis I have seen interviewed on TV have spoken English with a noticeable American accent and an Israeli soldier snatched by Hezbollah was born in France. What kind of hell do you think they have emigrated from?

In Israel, the immigration policy is run by foreign born Jews or their close family and they favor Jews in immigration. How would you feel if Chinese or Somalis ran the Canadian immigration policy instead of native Canadians and let in every Chinese or Somali willing to come while denying some rights and restricting lives of Canadians?

[Easy Drifter]

Eki uses the same tired themes again and again.

[Camelopard]

Even though some of you guys think that I'm a taleban, terrorist supporting anti-semite because I dare to post criticism of Israel and because I believe that a great many Palestinians are living under a form of aparthied, how can anyone justify the sort of action reported in the following.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8180413.stm

Palestinian officials say the families had lived in the houses for over 50 years.

Here is what the Israeli human rights organisation B'TSELEM has to say about East Jerusalem:

http://www.btselem.org/English/Jerusalem/

quote:
Israel’s policy gravely infringes the rights of residents of East Jerusalem and flagrantly breaches international law.
East Jerusalem is occupied territory. Therefore, it is subject, as is the rest of the West Bank, to the provisions of international humanitarian law that relate to occupied territory. The annexation of East Jerusalem breaches international law, which prohibits unilateral annexation. For this reason, the international community, including the United States, does not recognize the annexation of East Jerusalem. unquote



Even the US does not recognise the annexation of East Jerusalem, the US jewish lobby has failed badly there!

[Camelopard]

Israeli soldiers talk about the Occupied Terriitories:

Makes for some alarming reading and viewing!

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/index_e.asp

For example, Palestinian Police murdered by Israeli parratroopers in revenge following a terrorist attack.

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/testimonies_e_print.asp?id=244

Testimonies http://www.shovrimshtika.org/images/bulletred_eng.gif Killing/ Murder http://www.shovrimshtika.org/images/bulletred_eng.gif death sentence for PA Police


Name: ***
Rank: first sergeant
Unit: Nachal elite unite
Description: Were you sent on any missions that were defined as reprisals?
No.

I'm asking because I've heard that the paratrooper recon-unit did go on a revenge mission after a terrorist attack, killing Palestinian policemen.
Oh, that – sure. What is reprisal? It's a question of terminology by the commanding officer. He may say it's in revenge, he can also say it's meant to prevent attacks by killing Palestinian policemen. We had an operation planned for Qalqiliya that eventually did not place, of snipers taking down Palestinian policemen.

You were meant to go in there with snipers to kill Palestinian policemen?
Yes. It was in Rosh Hashanah, a year after the troubles broke out, and the operation was planned for locating Palestinian policemen and exterminating them. Meaning we'd place snipers 100-200 up to 500 meters from the policemen and take them down. Some of them were to be taken down silently, as it were. That means you go all the way up to the outpost and take them down with silenced guns, for the purpose of killing Palestinian policemen.

Armed? Unarmed? Anyone in uniform is a doomed man?
No. Anyone standing at a checkpoint is a doomed man. Then there were still Palestinian police checkpoints.

Did you ever have to carry out such a mission?
I don't remember. I recall all sorts of… I don't just want to talk without being certain.

What do you remember?
I remember we were on a mission on foot, we passed under a Palestinian police checkpoint and thought they spotted us, so let's say if they had taken a few more steps in our direction they would have been killed, most likely. But they didn't, so we walked on.



Testimonies http://www.shovrimshtika.org/images/bulletred_eng.gif Killing/ Murder http://www.shovrimshtika.org/images/bulletred_eng.gif Kill Palestinian policemen


Rank: Staff Sergeant
Unit: Nahal Reconnaissance Patrol
Place of incident: Qalqilya
Description: September-October 2001
We were supposed to have an operation in Qalqilya, which eventually didn’t take place. We were supposed to enter Qalqilya with marksmen and kill Palestinian policemen. This was on Rosh Hashana,[Jewish new year], one year after the beginning of the events [the Intifada]
The objective was identifying policemen and annihilating them. That is, stationing marksmen 500 meters away from the policemen and dispatch them, some of them were “dispatched quietly”, which means reaching their post and firing them with a gun equipped with a silencer. When the objective is dispatching Palestinian policemen, whoever is standing in a Palestinian checkpoint is sentenced to death.


http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/news_e.asp

[Camelopard]

More from Gaza:

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/testimonies_category_e.asp

… He (one of the soldiers) was in the room, I was in the position, and looked through the window, sitting. He opened a child's bag. The family was not there, they had run away. He took out notebooks and text books and ripped them. One guy smashed cupboards for kicks, out of boredom. There were guys arguing with the platoon commander before we left the house a week later, over why he wouldn't let them smash the picture hanging there. They think he was being petty with them.

But about stealing: the company commander, apparently under orders of the battalion commander, held a shame parade to check if stuff was stolen. How did he do it? He didn't tell the commanders to check each individual soldier. He said: "You (soldiers) pair up, everyone checks his mate for stuff taken. Then you don't have to yell out if you find anything, just come to me discretely, or to the platoon commander and sort it out." Obviously either this company commander is a total idiot or he just didn't want such stuff to be found out.

So there was a shame parade where everyone checked his buddy?

It was bullsh*t. And I'm sure there was looting. I can't tell you anything more specific.


Does not sound like a highly disciplined force to me, though I dare say someone will come out of the woodwork and say things like "they are normal guys, just like you and me' and 'they wouldn't have done things like that, it's just anti-jewish propaganda'! blah, blah blah....

[airshifter]

Does not sound like a highly disciplined force to me, though I dare say someone will come out of the woodwork and say things like "they are normal guys, just like you and me' and 'they wouldn't have done things like that, it's just anti-jewish propaganda'! blah, blah blah....

Actually if you read most peoples comments in the context they are written, you will find that nobody excuses Israel for any of their wrongdoings. They simply see wrong on both sides, unlike yourself.

Which is worse, troops that might have looted some small household items, or a family which teaches a child to stop a bomb to themselves to kill innocent people?

One is a situation of taking advantage of innocents, the other is a situation of killing those innocents.

[Camelopard]

Actually if you read most peoples comments in the context they are written, you will find that nobody excuses Israel for any of their wrongdoings. They simply see wrong on both sides, unlike yourself.

Which is worse, troops that might have looted some small household items, or a family which teaches a child to stop a bomb to themselves to kill innocent people?

One is a situation of taking advantage of innocents, the other is a situation of killing those innocents.

As usual if you bother to go to the links I have posted you will find many more worse scenarios than the looting and ransacking example, I see you don't bother making a comment on the execution of innocent Palestinian policemen, not surprising, but you lot are all the same. You take the fact that a very very small percentage of Palestinians strap explosives to their bodies to kill innocent people and brand all Palestinians as murderous terrorists.

I might ad as well that I have spent time on a kibbutz, have you, have you even been outside of your nice secure cocoon in the states and seen what it is like for Palestinians to live in an apartheid state where they are third class citizens in their own land?


Did you know that Israel is currently writing legislation to stop Palestinians officially remembering what they regard as "the Catastrophe"? They are also rewriting history books to remove any reference to that event. Do you care? probably not, it does not fit with your views of israel as geing always right regardless of what they do and of all muslims being terrorists.

http://www.alnakba.org/


http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/may/15/israelandthepalestinians

"Thousands took to the streets to commemorate those exiled or killed in the conflict that followed the creation of the state of Israel in 1948. More than 700,000 Palestinians fled or were expelled, their property was expropriated and they have not been allowed to return."

[Rani]

Did you know that Israel is currently writing legislation to stop Palestinians officially remembering what they regard as "the Catastrophe"? They are also rewriting history books to remove any reference to that event.


That's a bit of distorting the truth. History books are not being rewritten, nobody is denying the "naqba" (disaster) took place, the only thing being changed is the schools' curriculum. Do you think the USA would accept a massive part of its population honouring the 4th of July as a day of mourning, integrating it in its educational material?
Do you think France would stand on the sidelines while a major part of its population was holding violent protests against Bastille day?

I don't think they would, and I don't think we should either. I respect the arabs' feelings, and they can honour naqba and pray and dream for the day I die all they want in the comfort of their own home as much as they want. It doesn't mean the national school system should incorporate this hatred and it doesn't mean official ceremonies against Israel should be held.
my two agorot.

[Camelopard]

From http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/news_item_e.asp?id=1&page=1

"Among the 54 testimonies are stories revealing the use of "accepted practices," the destruction of hundreds of houses and mosques for no military purpose, the firing of phosphorous gas in the direction of populated areas, the killing of innocent victims with small arms, the destruction of private property, and most of all, a permissive atmosphere in the command structure that enabled soldiers to act without moral restrictions."

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/testimonies_e.asp?cat=9

"We also had these army-rabbinate-issued booklets with essays.

What was in them?
Essays about the operation, the importance of serving the People of Israel who has been persecuted all these years and is now back in its own homeland and needs to fight for it. All the well-known clichés, connecting it to the Holocaust and defending God.................................. These are opinion articles and contents that shift the main focus away from the actual idea of battling a terrorist organization that's present amongst civilians. The battalion commander said in the beginning that we're going in there to stop the Qassams. But the pamphlets spoke of going back to the source, of historic justice, things like that."

"The first was the distribution of pamphlets, an indirect sort of contact. It's the kind of pamphlet that is distributed in military synagogues, or pages of the weekly reading that is also distributed at military synagogues, containing rather explicit political contents. Like writing, for example, that the Palestinians are like the Philistines of old, newcomers who do not belong in the land, aliens planted on our soil which should clearly return to us."

"What problem did you have with that?
Personally, I think that as a citizen of a democratic state what bothers me is actually the distribution of political pamphlets with the stamp of the IDF on them – a body that is supposed to be apolitical. I think there is no room for political views in the army, regardless of whether I agree with them or not. I think they are out of place in an army framework."

"...Up came a man who introduced himself as Rabbi Chen, that was his name, who came as a civilian to speak to us. The whole talk was presented in points: the first point throughout his speech – later you see it in the pamphlets as well – is the sanctity of the People of Israel....."

"Was there any mention of the Palestinians? What did he say about them?
Another point that came up was when that rabbi said we are actually conducting the war of 'the sons of light' against 'the sons of darkness.' ...."

[Camelopard]

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/oferet/testimonies_e.asp?cat=7

Can you describe it? What did you see?
You're walking along the sand and hear this crunch of something being crushed. We looked down and saw what looked like the shards of thousands of broken glass bottles.

What color did it have?
A dirty brown.

Did you see remains of this elsewhere nearby?
There was an area of about 200-300 square meters of glazed sand like that. We understood this resulted from white phosphorus, and it was upsetting.

Why?
Because in training you learn that white phosphorus is not used, and you're taught that it's not humane. You watch films and see what it does to people who are hit, and you say, "There, we're doing it too." That's not what I expected to see. Until that moment I had thought I belonged to the most humane army in the world,"

[airshifter]

You take the fact that a very very small percentage of Palestinians strap explosives to their bodies to kill innocent people and brand all Palestinians as murderous terrorists.



Firstly, I didn't brand the Palestinians at all. But if you look in a mirror, you will find you are taking isolated interviews and such that remain unproven, and branding all of Israel based on those actions.

Even if the actions did in fact take place, it is a very small percentage.

Are you sure it isn't "you lot" that are all the same?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Many of the most hard line Israelis I have seen interviewed on TV have spoken English with a noticeable American accent and an Israeli soldier snatched by Hezbollah was born in France. What kind of hell do you think they have emigrated from?

In Israel, the immigration policy is run by foreign born Jews or their close family and they favor Jews in immigration. How would you feel if Chinese or Somalis ran the Canadian immigration policy instead of native Canadians and let in every Chinese or Somali willing to come while denying some rights and restricting lives of Canadians?

Eki...Foreign nations Do NOT dictate Israeli foreign policy, and the reason Israeli only imports Jews to naive eyes is because it is the JEWISH HOMELAND in the eyes of Jews. No one else wants to go there and put up with having to worry about some terrorist blowing himself up in the market. Jews go there to reconnect with their religion and to defend a land they believe was theres (and it was until the Roman's conquered them and that led to 2000 years of being scattered around the Roman empire.)

You anti Israel rantings are comical though..continue on...

[Mark in Oshawa]

On this one Cameleopard, I will take you a lot more serious when you acknowledge both sides are at fault for human rights abuses and out right crimes. Still doesn't change the reality that there many in Palestinian terrorities that are bent on the death of Israel and every Jew in it. If Israel wanted to do the same to Palestine, they would have done it already. THAT is the difference. The Arabs lack the means to carry out their genocidal wishes, the Israeli's don't and haven't acted.

As for your isolated interview, you are right, the guy looks like a twerp, but hardly an instance of state policy. I suspect you could interview a cop in Australia with similar views about the Aborgines or a Cop in Alabama who if he could would do the same to blacks. Doesn't mean the society they purport to serve would back those views.

[Eki]

Eki...Foreign nations Do NOT dictate Israeli foreign policy, Maybe they should. After all they are trying to dictate the policies of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea. Or even the Palestines, after they elected Hamas in their government (if I recall it right, the US stopped aiding Palestinians after Hamas won the elections). How about putting some sanctions on Israel too?


and the reason Israeli only imports Jews to naive eyes is because it is the JEWISH HOMELAND in the eyes of Jews. No one else wants to go there

Exiled Palestinian refugees might want to go there, if their former habitats weren't now occupied by Jewish immigrants.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Maybe they should. After all they are trying to dictate the policies of Iraq, Afghanistan, Iran and North Korea. Or even the Palestines, after they elected Hamas in their government (if I recall it right, the US stopped aiding Palestinians after Hamas won the elections). How about putting some sanctions on Israel too?.

They are not dicating their policies at all. What they are saying is don't attack us with nuclear weapons in the case of Iran. Afghanistan? Israel isn't there and I cant recall them saying much about North Korea either. IN the case of Iran, their President has had Holocaust denial conventions and has talked of turning Israel into an ashtray. I guess you think that sort of thing should be ignored when a power trying to build a nuclear weapon and delivery system has a leader saying he wants to use it on you. When they fund Hezbollah I guess you are to ignore that too? Only you Eki could gloss over those facts, since they neuter your argument.




Exiled Palestinian refugees might want to go there, if their former habitats weren't now occupied by Jewish immigrants.

Arabs who didn't leave have their people STILL there. Arabs who wanted to go back likely could if not for the fact many still keep strapping bombs to themselves or vehicles and sending them into the Jewish end of town. This mess has two sides and you keep chosing to ignore the obvious. Should the Jew's be settling in the captured land? Yes and no. No if you think the land should be given back, but the Arabs have started these wars with Israel and lost the land. Israel gave back the Sinai to Egypt and Gaza was given back in gesture of goodwill. What did the Palestinians do? Launch more attacks. Not exactly helping the cause of peace is it?

Of course...you only see Israel's wrong doing and have yet to ONCE condemn any act against Israel no matter how heinous. It just renders your tattered credibility as useless Eki...

[Eki]

They are not dicating their policies at all. What they are saying is don't attack us with nuclear weapons in the case of Iran. Afghanistan? Israel isn't there and I cant recall them saying much about North Korea either.
By "them" I meant the UN and their US machinated sanctions on countries that the US doesn't agree with, not Israel. And neither Iran nor North Korea have threatened to attack anyone with nuclear weapons, except maybe North Korea in self defense. Iran has even denied it's building any nuclear weapons, but peaceful nuclear energy. At the same time the US has vetoed every proposal of resolutions against Israel. It's no wonder that the Palestinians and Muslims are frustrated.

[Camelopard]

As for your isolated interview, you are right, the guy looks like a twerp, but hardly an instance of state policy. I suspect you could interview a cop in Australia with similar views about the Aborgines or a Cop in Alabama who if he could would do the same to blacks. Doesn't mean the society they purport to serve would back those views.

I have previously acknowledged that both sides have their faults, as for the single interview, did you go to that site? If not spend a few minutes there, it isn't just one persons views,


I'll post it here again to make it easier for you:

http://www.shovrimshtika.org/

Again I'll ask the question, how many of you have been there and seen for yourselves how Palestinians are treated in their homeland? I've asked this previously and have never received a reply. This makes me think that as a rough generalisation that all of you get your news and opinions from a very one sided, biased media in North America.


Also I continue to note that no-one has commented on the idf's execution of innocent Palestinian Police, but hey the idf are the most humane, disciplined army in the world, they wouldn't do things like that!