Rubens, Rubens, Rubens...

[Jake Stephens]

Wow! What about that, just seen Rubens on the Beeb giving out about the team strategy, I think he was well out of order there... Any views?

[ioan]

Wow! What about that, just seen Rubens on the Beeb giving out about the team strategy, I think he was well out of order there... Any views?

He is right the team shafted him again, for 1 measly point.

[AndyL]

Out of order, yes, but also somewhat understandable I think. He is an emotional guy and I can see why he's upset at essentially having to give his 5th place to Jenson.

[Tazio]

Rubens Frustration is understandable. He seems to always have the wrong strategy.
Not taking anything away from Jenson, but Brawn was out strategied by Ferrari for god sake :down:

[Dave B]

Bordais to Brawn, anybody? :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

He is right the team shafted him again, for 1 measly point.

Shafted? He was beaten fair and square. He was simply far slower again.

[Jake Stephens]

Agree with both of you guys but i think a guy of his experience should know better than to open up like that in public, it was a surprise. See how hes using his old style Honda helmet since the first few races as opposed to the Brawn black and yellow design? Looks like theres an awful lot of tension building inside Brackley..

[ioan]

Out of order, yes, but also somewhat understandable I think. He is an emotional guy and I can see why he's upset at essentially having to give his 5th place to Jenson.

3rd time in half a season! It's a bit to often for anyone even for Rubens, he's treated worse than Piquet at Renault.

[Mark]

Both Eddie Jordan and Frank Williams saying they would seriously consider sacking him in that situation.

[ioan]

Shafted? He was beaten fair and square. He was simply far slower again.

Please watch the race next time instead of playing poker with your friends. :rolleyes:

He lost 6 seconds in one of his stops and even when he was fueled longer they brought him in before Jensy.

[ioan]

Both Eddie Jordan and Frank Williams saying they would seriously consider sacking him in that situation.

:laugh:
Eddie Jordan, does he even have a team?! :rolleyes:

Frank Wiliams is just a bitter old man. He sacked so many good driver for less than this.

[ioan]

BTW I'm not a Rubens fan, if anyone wonders.

[spudrsca]

Both Eddie Jordan and Frank Williams saying they would seriously consider sacking him in that situation.

I doubt Rubens would care, It's his last season anyway.
He's only telling the truth.

[Garry Walker]

Please watch the race next time instead of playing poker with your friends. :rolleyes:

He lost 6 seconds in one of his stops and even when he was fueled longer they brought him in before Jensy.

Please watch the race next time instead of wetting the Vettel poster you have at your house.

1) do you think fuel rig problem was orchestrated by Brawn to help them give Button one more point, and lose several points in WCC? Good one.
2) How do you know he was fueled longer than Button? Give me facts, not verbal diahorrea.

[Hawkmoon]

For those who don't get the BBC post race, what did Barrichello say?

[Garry Walker]

:laugh:
Eddie Jordan, does he even have a team?! :rolleyes:


BBC should dump that idiot Eddie Jordan, he is a fool

[spudrsca]

Please watch the race next time instead of wetting the Vettel poster you have at your house.

1) do you think fuel rig problem was orchestrated by Brawn to help them give Button one more point, and lose several points in WCC? Good one.
2) How do you know he was fueled longer than Button? Give me facts, not verbal diahorrea.

Well when It happens several times in the season, It's legitimate to have doubts.

[Garry Walker]

Well when It happens several times in the season, It's legitimate to have doubts.

It was obvious at Barcelona that Brawn wanted Jenson to win.
But today was fair and square, RB was simply beaten by the clearly faster man. Of course, if his fuel rig had not malfunctioned, that wouldnt have happened, but then again, if kovalainen hadnt held up Button, things would have been different too.

[woody2goody]

Right, first of all the fuel problem wasn't the reason he lost the race. He had already lost the race by that point.

His strategy, just like Barcelona, was a complete disaster. When Webber came in for his drive through penalty (on the same lap as Rubens' first stop), Brawn HAD to switch Rubinho on to a two stopper. They HAD to. they would have had 10-15 seconds over Webber, with cars between them and on the same number of stops.

When are Brawn going to realise the importance of track position? Track position in Barcelona would have given Rubens a victory, and track position today would have had Red Bull on toast, but the strategy was a complete failure. Look at how the medium tyres worked on Sutil's car. Even if Jenson and Rubens were having problems getting heat in the tyres, they could have caned the tyres for five laps to make them work.

Yes it was unlike Rubens to blast his team, but let's be fair to him, he never talked about the fuel problem. All the TV is going on about is the fuel rig. iIt was the inept strategy yet again from Brawn GP.

[Jake Stephens]

I dont think Ross would be too happy about his outburst. My own opinion is that they arent favouring Jens but even if they are, he should go to the team before mouthing off.

[woody2goody]

Out of order, yes, but also somewhat understandable I think. He is an emotional guy and I can see why he's upset at essentially having to give his 5th place to Jenson.

He didn't have to give his fifth place away, they needed to stop again, nobody's fault.

[christophulus]

For those who don't get the BBC post race, what did Barrichello say?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76911


"I'm terribly upset with the way things have gone today," Barrichello told BBC TV. "Because it was a very good show of how to lose a race.
"I did everything I had to do. I had to go first into the first corner, and that's what I did.

"Then they [Brawn] made me lose the race basically. If we keep going on like this, then we'll end up losing both championships, and that would be terrible."

"To be honest, I wish I could just get on a plane and go home now. I don't want to talk to anyone in the team, because it would be a lot of bla, bla, bla, bla... And I don't want to hear that. I'm just terribly upset."

[Tazio]

:rolleyes: Tough day at the office for Rubens. His comments are not that big of a deal, and are mostly accurate especially about them losing the wcc as Brawn have gone as brain dead as Ferrai in their strategy!

[ShiftingGears]

3rd time in half a season! It's a bit to often for anyone even for Rubens, he's treated worse than Piquet at Renault.

You win as a team and you lose as a team. And playing the blame game, regardless if people think it is justified or not, is not the quality of a good team member.

And it isn't going to make the Brawn team more likely to favour him, either. He had nothing to gain and a lot to lose by making such statements like that.

Basically, a stupid outburst by someone who should grow a pair and shut up.

[woody2goody]

:rolleyes: Tough day at the office for Rubens. His comments are not that big of a deal, and are mostly accurate especially about them losing the wcc as Brawn have gone as brain dead as Ferrai in their strategy!

And now Ferrari have stopped pissing around and are bringing home solid results. Felipe was very good today. Massa could be the best driver in F1 at the moment, apart from maybe Alonso.

[ioan]

Please watch the race next time instead of wetting the Vettel poster you have at your house.

Now you are doing what wedge was doing earlier! ;)
FYI I don't even have a michael Schumacher poster, let alone a Vettel one! :p :

The only posters I have are of Ferrari race cars! :D



1) do you think fuel rig problem was orchestrated by Brawn to help them give Button one more point, and lose several points in WCC? Good one.

No it wasn't orchestrated, but it happened. Didn't it?!
I'm just trying to make sure that you watched the race! :p :



2) How do you know he was fueled longer than Button?

Go watch the race again, they show the fuel volume taken on board at every stop.

[Tazio]

And now Ferrari have stopped pissing around and are bringing home solid results. Felipe was very good today. Massa could be the best driver in F1 at the moment, apart from maybe Alonso.
Well having a reliable car and being able to hold Vettel off early was very positive.
He drove a consistant race and like you said Ferrari stopped pissing around. at least this week.
As far as Rubens goes He was just plain pissed off He could have stated his case A LOT worse.
This could serve as a wake-up call for the whole team. In a few days their will be no hard feelings.
I'm glad someone spoke up about their silly @ss strategy!
Brawn apeared to be completely unprepared for normal weather conditions.!

[ioan]

Please watch the race next time instead of wetting the Vettel poster you have at your house.

Now you are doing what wedge was doing earlier! ;)
FYI I don't even have a michael Schumacher poster, let alone a Vettel one! :p :

The only posters I have are of Ferrari race cars! :D



1) do you think fuel rig problem was orchestrated by Brawn to help them give Button one more point, and lose several points in WCC? Good one.

No it wasn't orchestrated, but it happened. Didn't it?!
I'm just trying to make sure that you watched the race! :p :



2) How do you know he was fueled longer than Button?

Go watch the race again, they show the fuel volume taken on board at every stop, if you don't believe them than just time the refueling periods during the pit stops.

[ioan]

As far as Rubens goes He was just plain pissed off He could have stated his case A LOT worse.
This could serve as a wake-up call for the whole team. In a few days their will be no hard feelings.
I'm glad someone spoke up about their silly @ss strategy!
Brawn apeared to be completely unprepared for normal weather conditions.!

Nah that can't be.
How do you dare take Rubens side when he dares to criticize Ross 'All Times God of Motorsport' Brawn?! The Button mob will be after you now! :D ;)

[ioan]

You win as a team and you lose as a team.

To me it looks like you lose for the team you win nothing, in this case.
What exactly did Rubens win in this case?! :rolleyes:

[maximilian]

Who thinks this could result in Rubens being sacked before the next race? :eek:

I wanna see Alex Wurz take the wheel for the rest of the season! :D

[ioan]

He didn't have to give his fifth place away, they needed to stop again, nobody's fault.

:rotflmao: :rolleyes: :rotflmao:

[ioan]

Who thinks this could result in Rubens being sacked before the next race? :eek:

I wanna see Alex Wurz take the wheel for the rest of the season! :D

The same Alex Wurz who admitted that it was blatant team orders from Brawn?
I'll have him back to, just to give Jensy a good driving lesson.

PS: I doubt Brawn have the money to pay off Ruben's demands if they try to sack him, they didn't even have the money to pay Wurz to be their 3rd driver this season. ;)

[ShiftingGears]

To me it looks like you lose for the team you win nothing, in this case.
What exactly did Rubens win in this case?! :rolleyes:

Nothing.

But he lost a hell of a lot more thanks to his little outcry.

[ShiftingGears]

I'll have him back to, just to give Jensy a good driving lesson.

You mean like he gave Rosberg a brilliant driving lesson?

[ioan]

Nothing.

But he lost a hell of a lot more thanks to his little outcry.

What did he lose with his outcry?!

Let me tell you one thing, I appreciate more a person who will say out loud what he thinks than a nobody who will bend over without a whisper!
The first one is a man, the second one is a whore.

[ioan]

You mean like he gave Rosberg a brilliant driving lesson?

You think Jenson is better than Rosberg?!
I guess you didn't watch the race today and 3 weeks ago. :laugh:

[HenryM]

wow, he lost the race again in this 3 stop strategy, and a lot of bad luck with that refueling rig, and then the team call him fist to the last stop, and that cost him his 5th place to button.. I think he have some good reasons to be pissed off, and I don't think he said anything stupid... but for his own good, he should just keep his mouth shut.

button was faster at that stage, and for the championship they made the right choice

[ShiftingGears]

What did he lose with his outcry?!

Respect from the team.

[Ranger]

You think Jenson is better than Rosberg?!
I guess you didn't watch the race today and 3 weeks ago. :laugh:

He means when Wurz was hammered by his team-mate Rosberg in 2007.

[ioan]

Respect from the team.

What's worth the respect of those who screw you over and over again?!
IMO nothing.

What's you opinion on this? I'm really curious.

[ioan]

He means when Wurz was hammered by his team-mate Rosberg in 2007.

So what?
It doesn't mean that Wurz couldn't beat a curb stone. He's a 2 times Le Mans 24 hours winner, not just a nobody.

[ShiftingGears]

You think Jenson is better than Rosberg?!
I guess you didn't watch the race today and 3 weeks ago. :laugh:

Yes.

However, Rosberg drove brilliantly today.

[Sleeper]

I think he went to far with that outburst, Brawn clearly had problems with tyres today, as shown by that final 10 lap stint where both drivers killed their tyres trying to push after Rosberg and stay ahead of Alonso. That 3 stop startegy wasnt good but lets be honest, would they really have gained much more with a 2?

[ShiftingGears]

What's worth the respect of those who screw you over and over again?!
IMO nothing.

What's you opinion on this? I'm really curious.

Well, it's going to compromise his performance because it makes the team less likely to work hard for you.

It's something Schumacher realised- you need to rally the team around you to get the best results.

Barrichello just did something quite the opposite.

While I understand where Barrichello is coming from, for his own sake he should've kept his mouth shut in that situation.

BTW I quite like Wurz - although his F1 days are done. Sportscars are the way to go for him.

[AndyL]

He didn't have to give his fifth place away, they needed to stop again, nobody's fault.

Yes they both needed to stop a 3rd time, but on the first two rounds of stops Jenson had stopped first. On the last stop they brought Rubens in first, giving Jenson the extra lap to get past. No proof of any team strategy there, maybe Rubens really was short-filled on the 2nd stop due to the fuel rig problem so had to stop earlier. But it's pretty clear how Rubens perceived it.

[ioan]

Well, it's going to compromise his performance because it makes the team less likely to work hard for you.

I doubt the team would stop favoring Jensy anyway so I applaud Rubens for behaving like a man instead of being Brawn's room maid. ;)

[BillBald]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread.

Rubens had a very poor race, apart from his brilliant start.

He was slow and didn't overtake when he needed to.

Neither Brawn driver was able to make the tyres last for the short stints they did, how could they have managed longer stints?

Jenson made a very bad start (I think he was about 8th in turn one), but did a lot of overtaking and had a good pace.

So what if Brawn called Rubens in early for that last stop? They should have called him in ten laps earlier, and let Jenson have a go at Nico.

[ioan]

I can't believe what I'm reading in this thread.

Rubens had a very poor race, apart from his brilliant start.

He was slow and didn't overtake when he needed to.

Neither Brawn driver was able to make the tyres last for the short stints they did, how could they have managed longer stints?

Jenson made a very bad start (I think he was about 8th in turn one), but did a lot of overtaking and had a good pace.

So what if Brawn called Rubens in early for that last stop? They should have called him in ten laps earlier, and let Jenson have a go at Nico.

:laugh:

Jenson had bigger problems with tires and was slower than Rubens in all but one stint and if it wasn't for the botched refueling he wouldn't have been in a position to be gifted 5th place by Ross.

[BillBald]

:laugh:
Jenson had bigger problems with tires and was slower than Rubens in all but one stint and if it wasn't for the botched refueling he wouldn't have been in a position to be gifted 5th place by Ross.

Jenson was much slower than Rubens in the earlier part of the race, because Rubens was in front with a clear track.

I don't have the exact figures in front of me, but I'm pretty sure Jenson lost more than 20 seconds in the first stint. The botched pit stop cost a lot less than that.

It's clear to me that you only see what you want to see.

[Bagwan]

This is perfect .
Rubens is insensed . It matters not why .
Jock , his race engineer , wants Jacques in the car .
He's good friends with the number one , and already has vast experience with the race engineer .
He'll race for peanuts , and guide the partner to a WDC .
He is smooth , just like Button , and will take the car to a new level .

It's time , Ross .

[Bradley]

For the fuel problem : I'd consider that as a race fact. Basta.

But is there a "neutral" reason why they called him in first to the last stop?
The result was clear even before the stop : one light lap for Button against one heavy lap for Rubens. The first one who was called in would end behind the team-mate.
So we can say Brawn deliberatley chose Button to end before Rubens.

[BillBald]

Brawn deliberatley chose Button to end before Rubens.

He may well have done that. But if Rubens had been getting the job done, he would have been a long way ahead of Jenson, so the question would never have arisen.

I can't understand why posters in this forum think that Ross Brawn should sacrifice his team's chances for the sake of some nebulous concept of fairness.

If Rubens were outpacing Jenson, instead of holding him up, and Ross ordered him to drop behind, that would be different.

[Bradley]

I can't understand why posters in this forum think that Ross Brawn should sacrifice his team's chances for the sake of some nebulous concept of fairness.


OK, that's an acceptable point. And due to regulations Brawn can not declare that publicly. I hope for Rubens that at least Brawn is honest towards him about that.

[ClarkFan]

Look at how the medium tyres worked on Sutil's car. Even if Jenson and Rubens were having problems getting heat in the tyres, they could have caned the tyres for five laps to make them work.

This may have been the real problem. The Brawn appears not to heat tires well, and on a cool, overcast day that seemed to lead to struggles with pace - the Red Bulls won because they were faster, plain and simple. And with the option tire being too soft, the team was left without a good choice for combining speed and endurance. It is now clear the Brawn has some limits, and the team has to be hoping for a traditional hot race in Hungary to get back on track.

The fuel rig problem was clearly a botch, but that goes in the category of bad racing luck. A driver that can't cope with that needs to stop driving.

ClarkFan

[Lemmy-Boy]

Rubens has every right to bitch and complain. After sucking Schuey's nut-sack for so many years at Ferrari, I would be very suspicious of Brawn and his strategies.

Does the 2002 Austrian GP ring a bell? If that situation happened to me, I'd be wary of favoritism for a very long time. After all, Brawn was part of Schuey's inner circle during his glory years.

[BillBald]

This is perfect .
Jock , his race engineer , wants Jacques in the car .


I always had the impression that Jock Clear had a good relationship with Rubens. When you hear them on the radio, they seem to be working together well.

But the way that Rubens has lately been blaming 'my side of the garage', maybe that's starting to change. Or maybe it's just wishful thinking on your part - I see that you are a big JV supporter.

[ClarkFan]

This is perfect .
Rubens is insensed . It matters not why .
Jock , his race engineer , wants Jacques in the car .
He's good friends with the number one , and already has vast experience with the race engineer .
He'll race for peanuts , and guide the partner to a WDC .
He is smooth , just like Button , and will take the car to a new level .

It's time , Ross .

Whatever it is you are smoking or drinking, please share. The hallucinations seem to be pleasant. :confused:

Sorry, but JV was done at the start of 1998.

ClarkFan

[ioan]

He may well have done that. But if Rubens had been getting the job done, he would have been a long way ahead of Jenson, so the question would never have arisen.

He did the job, but for a refueling problem that cost him 4-5 seconds. :rolleyes:

[BillBald]

Does the 2002 Austrian GP ring a bell?

Not relevant. In that race Rubens was not driving slowly, holding Shuey up, and preventing the team from maximising its points. But today, he was doing just that.

I can understand Rubens' neurosis, but I personally feel that Ross has indulged it long enough. Maybe Ross feels a little guilty for the way Rubens was treated at Ferrari.

Rubens' idea of competing with Jenson seems to be to get ahead of him and then hold him up. Rubens made a great start, he should have made better use of it.

[ioan]

Not relevant. In that race Rubens was not driving slowly, holding Shuey up, and preventing the team from maximising its points. But today, he was doing just that.

Rubens 5th + Jenson 6th = 7 points
Rubens 6th + Jenson 5th = 7 points

I don't see how Rubens position had any influence on the number of points the team managed! :rolleyes:

[BillBald]

Rubens 5th + Jenson 6th = 7 points
Rubens 6th + Jenson 5th = 7 points
I don't see how Rubens position had any influence on the number of points the team managed! :rolleyes:

What you are saying is true in a very limited way.

Rubens drove slowly today, held up his team-mate for a number of laps, and most importantly - he threw away an opportunity to minimise the damage to the team's WCC challenge.

You can hardly blame the team if they decided to at least maximise Jenson's WDC position - I think Rubens made it very clear today that he is not a potential WDC.

[F1boat]

I'd fire Rubens immediately. His attitude was unforgivable.

[Tazio]

I'd fire Rubens immediately. His attitude was unforgivable.
Dude that's harsh!
Plus they would still have to honor his contract!
Or sell it to someone else where he can be completely debriefed :)

[Robinho]

Please watch the race next time instead of playing poker with your friends. :rolleyes:

He lost 6 seconds in one of his stops and even when he was fueled longer they brought him in before Jensy.


so you did watch the race? he lost time when the fuel rig failed, and had to use the spare rig. did you get a definitive reading on the amount of fuel that went in from the spare rig?

it was unfortunate for him, but what lost him that one position was the in lap Jenson drove. if they hadn't had the problem with the rig i think Rubens would probably have come 3rd, but i don't think it was a deliberate move from the team.

[Robinho]

i don't blame Rubens for being pi55ed, and certainly not for venting, and it was a mistake that lost him 3rd, however that was not the team favouring anyone.

in fact if you watced Rubens little outburst HE didn't even say that, he said the team screwed up (on strategy and the fuel rig problem) and that he could have had 3rd.

[ioan]

Rubens drove slowly today, held up his team-mate for a number of laps...

You only managed to show your bias with this poor affirmation.
Please tell us how far ahead Rubens did his super duper team mate finish the race.

It looked to me like Jensy was holding up Rubens once Ross gifted him the better position.
So much about Rubens holding him up. :laugh:

[Dave B]

so you did watch the race? he lost time when the fuel rig failed, and had to use the spare rig. did you get a definitive reading on the amount of fuel that went in from the spare rig?


Ah yes but you're allowing facts to get in the way of a juicy conspiracy theory. Some people like to bitch and whine on the flimsiest excuse, and imagine improper behaviour from a team where none exists. If it keeps them happy then fair enough. Me, I just ignore them after a while.

[ioan]

Ruben's is a great guy but this was very unprofessional behavior to publically criticize the team in such a blatant manner.

Other drivers did criticize their teams much more and even used harsher words than this in the past.

Rubens was a gentleman today when he stopped before telling the whole truth about how Ross screwed him again.

Sure if you compare him to Mr. Curbstone without personality than he is harsh, but IMO he just did what he had to do in order to keep his self esteem alive.

[Wasted Talent]

i don't blame Rubens for being pi55ed, and certainly not for venting, and it was a mistake that lost him 3rd, however that was not the team favouring anyone.

in fact if you watced Rubens little outburst HE didn't even say that, he said the team screwed up (on strategy and the fuel rig problem) and that he could have had 3rd.

Didn't SEE what Rubens said, but have read the Autosport quotes, and if that is all he said then he didn't mention Jenson - he was p#ssed at losing places with the three stop strategy, not that the team was favouring Button (three stop as well of course)

WT

[Bagwan]

Why did they not fuel him for the 2-stop with the second rig ?

They wanted to piss him off so that he would have a cow and they could fire him so they can put JV in the seat .
It's simple , really , if you think about it .

[Robinho]

i'm not surprised he had a moan, and some of what he said was right (as Ross stated also( but he did get a bit carried away. he'll probably realise he went a bit far, but he's got the relationship with the boss that means nothing much will come from it. its not like he's staying after the end of the year, so he can afford to speak his mind - refreshing sometimes, but he wasn't quite on the money today

[Robinho]

Why did they not fuel him for the 2-stop with the second rig ?

They wanted to piss him off so that he would have a cow and they could fire him so they can put JV in the seat .
It's simple , really , if you think about it .


the fuel amounts are pre-programmed i think. they'd already said they were stick to 3 stops and trying to get him out ahead of rosberg (which they would have done)

switching to a 2 stopper was an option, but not something they probably could have decided mid pit stop

[ioan]

i'm not surprised he had a moan, and some of what he said was right (as Ross stated also( but he did get a bit carried away. he'll probably realise he went a bit far, but he's got the relationship with the boss that means nothing much will come from it. its not like he's staying after the end of the year, so he can afford to speak his mind - refreshing sometimes, but he wasn't quite on the money today

You think that Rubens is so desperate to be the whore of the team that he would wait till the end of the season?
I hope he isn't so low in his own eyes.

[Robinho]

yeah, cos he's fighting for 2 championships, and he's not the whore of the team, Ross thinks way more of him than that - he might soon find himself out of the race, but it won't be cos the team is secretly screwing him over by sneakily pretending to have fuel rig problems.

Ross and Rubens are both highly professional and i respect them both enormously, i think this wil blow over once Rubens sees the race back and sees the data, he wasn't quick enough at the right points, and was done by an unfortunate combination of the wrong strategy, a dodgy fuel rig and a car that doesn't work in the cold.

he'll fight back, but i think the chances for wins have gone now the Red Bull has caught and overtaken Brawn, Jenson took his chances when he had them and Rubens has had the bad luck - i'm not looking for some higher theory

[BillBald]

It looked to me like Jensy was holding up Rubens once Ross gifted him the better position.
So much about Rubens holding him up. :laugh:

You are obviously a very clever guy, maybe you should use your ability for something other than misrepresenting the facts.

Jenson took a chance and went back to the supersoft rubber for his last stint. No doubt he was gambling that extra rubber on the track would mean that they would perform better. If it had worked out, he might have been able to catch and pass Nico, so it was a worthwhile gamble.

[ioan]

I don't agree to be honest... I can't think of another ocassion in recent years other than Kubica, where the team have been put down in an interview with such conviction.

You must be new to F1.
I remember a certain Alonso making worse comments than Rubens in 2006 and 2007!

And there were others in the history of F1 who didn't hesitate to openly express their disagreement with their team, but that would already belong to the nostalgia sub-forum.



I didn't get the Mr Curbstone part btw? :)

Don't worry you'll understand one day. ;)

[Bagwan]

the fuel amounts are pre-programmed i think. they'd already said they were stick to 3 stops and trying to get him out ahead of rosberg (which they would have done)

switching to a 2 stopper was an option, but not something they probably could have decided mid pit stop

Rubens was pissed that he wasn't changed to a 2-stopper , wasn't he ?
Presumably , without the time lost to the rig , they were to fuel him for two .
If so , why was the back-up programmed differently then ?

[ioan]

You are obviously a very clever guy...

I know! :p



Jenson took a chance and went back to the supersoft rubber for his last stint. No doubt he was gambling that extra rubber on the track would mean that they would perform better. If it had worked out, he might have been able to catch and pass Nico, so it was a worthwhile gamble.

You mean that Rubens on the harder tire was faster simply because Jenson was on the softer one?!

Which brings the next question, why didn't they put Rubens also on the softer tire? Maybe because he would have come around before jensy could rejoin the track?!

To many questions about how Ross manages his drivers and their race these days. Even if half of them are a bit far fetched the other half is more than the whole questionable doings of the other teams together.

[Robinho]

Rubens was pissed that he wasn't changed to a 2-stopper , wasn't he ?
Presumably , without the time lost to the rig , they were to fuel him for two .
If so , why was the back-up programmed differently then ?

they didn't, they hadn't switched to a 2 stopper, they were staying on a 3 stopper to get out in front of Rosberg.

[Robinho]

I know! :p



You mean that Rubens on the harder tire was faster simply because Jenson was on the softer one?!

Which brings the next question, why didn't they put Rubens also on the softer tire? Maybe because he would have come around before jensy could rejoin the track?!

To many questions about how Ross manages his drivers and their race these days. Even if half of them are a bit far fetched the other half is more than the whole questionable doings of the other teams together.

your showing your bias with that assessment i think

[Big Ben]

I´m sorry for RB. I was sure the team will do what´s necessary to put him behind JB.

[ioan]

Well I'm not new to F1, and I do remember Alonso's comments now you mention it, but he was very immature in those days. That can't really be said for Rubens now can it. He's sensing the end of his career is near and he is wanting to go out on a high. I don't blame him for personally blaming his team, but certain feelings don't need to be aired in public.

My view of it is that Alonso did say worse things than Rubens in two different seasons at two different teams, once he wasn't really right about (Renault) 2nd time he was entitled to say it (McLaren).

Rubens did nothing else but say the truth about the malfunctioning rig and the poor strategy, still he gets scolded because daring to say it as it is.



I just hope the 'Mr Curbstone' comment wasn't another pathetic, predictable dig at Lewis Hamilton which is becoming the forum forte. I doubt it was in your case ioan, as none of us know these drivers in this capacity anyway...

No it's not about Hamilton, and after watching the start again I feel sorry for him as he was on route to leading the field out of turn 1 before Webber cut his rear tire.

[BillBald]

why didn't they put Rubens also on the softer tire?

Both Brawns were on the softer tyre on their first 2 stints, I believe. They switched to the harder tyre because the softer ones were not working.
So it could only have been a gamble for Jenson to switch back.

This is getting so pointless.

What happened today was that Rubens threw away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by putting in a mediocre performance.

He made a great start and went into the lead. Two of his main title rivals made bad starts and found themselves behind long-fuelled KERS cars. The other main rival, Webber, got a drive-through.

Anyone who has serious pretensions to being World Championship material would have grasped that opportunity with both hands. OK the car was far from perfect, but 6th place!!

If you look at the table of fastest laps, Rubens is 11th, behind the BMWs.

It's time that Rubens stopped kidding himself, and started being a team player.

[ioan]

What happened today was that Rubens threw away a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity by putting in a mediocre performance.

What happened today is that the BrawnGP car was not tops again, like in Silverstone, and we saw that both drivers are pants and confirmed Briatore's opinion about them.
On top of that we witnessed the usual 'screw Ruby' for Jensy move, with a malfunctioning refueling rig thrown in the mix.

[BillBald]

What happened today is that the BrawnGP car was not tops again, like in Silverstone, and we saw that both drivers are pants and confirmed Briatore's opinion about them

What we saw was a very clear difference between Jenson, who must have overtaken more cars in one race than anyone has in the last few years, and Rubens, who didn't overtake anyone at all, as far as I recall.

So your attempt to lump them together is feeble.

[ioan]

What we saw was a very clear difference between Jenson, who must have overtaken more cars in one race than anyone has in the last few years...

Sorry, I stopped reading here as I can't accept such exaggerations.

[BillBald]

Sorry, I stopped reading here as I can't accept such exaggerations.

Try watching the race again, and see how many overtakes you can count.

I think it's facts that you have a problem with.

[markabilly]

does not much matter, poor RB is doomed to always finish behind button....

as to his fussing about, ssssoooooo wwhhhatt???

big deal

given this is his last season, then he has nothing to lose by refusing to be rolling over and taking it without telling the world

Only problem I saw was he was consistenly slower on the track esp. when it mattered, now was it the tires or him or something else, I dunno

Yeah they screwed up the pit stops, but so? The time lost could not have been more or even equaled the time lost by Webber making his run through the pits, and he still finished first.

The brawn boys could not even beat out rosberg or massa :(

[ioan]

Try watching the race again, and see how many overtakes you can count.

I think it's facts that you have a problem with.

About 3. But maybe I missed one somewhere?
Fisichella did about the same, in the same race. Or maybe you only see Button on the track?!

[ioan]

The brawn boys could not even beat out rosberg or massa :(

That's great news!

[BillBald]

About 3. But maybe I missed one somewhere?


About 3 in the first few corners.

I suppose I need to count them myself to prove you wrong.

But I'm not sure if it's worth it, you'll only come out with some other stuff...

[woody2goody]

What happened today is that the BrawnGP car was not tops again, like in Silverstone, and we saw that both drivers are pants and confirmed Briatore's opinion about them.
On top of that we witnessed the usual 'screw Ruby' for Jensy move, with a malfunctioning refueling rig thrown in the mix.

Sorry ioan that's bollocks. The strategy was the problem for BOTH Brawns, not just Rubens. The fuel rig problem was just unlucky.

And how was Button supposed to beat a car (RBR) which was half a second faster than his?

Rubens could have won but for the crappy strategy. If they'd have switched him to a two stopper when Mark had his penalty, then Rubens would probably have won.

[woody2goody]

About 3. But maybe I missed one somewhere?
Fisichella did about the same, in the same race. Or maybe you only see Button on the track?!

Fisi was awesome today, well done for spotting that he overtook a heck of a lot of people :) I think it was at least 5.

[ClarkFan]

I just hope his services are not going to be relinquished in the coming days... :(

That is not terribly likely. Brawn is a rational man who believes his team has a chance to win both championships. There isn't anyone who can replace Rubens who gives Brawn GP a shot at the WCC.

ClarkFan

[CNR]

Why did they not fuel him for the 2-stop with the second rig ?

They wanted to piss him off so that he would have a cow and they could fire him so they can put JV in the seat .
It's simple , really , if you think about it .

was this a spare rig or the one set up for button button was made stay out longer because of the fuel rig problom

[Valve Bounce]

Both Eddie Jordan and Frank Williams saying they would seriously consider sacking him in that situation.

Yeah! and Eddie would sack him by sending him a fax.

I think Brawn had the right slant - Rubens was simply not fast enough, as he had the 11th fastest lap time in the race.

But he does have a seat in what is one of the fastest cars on the grid; I don't think it is wise to bad mouth someone like Brawn nor Todt in public under such circumstances.

[Valve Bounce]

I doubt the team would stop favoring Jensy anyway so I applaud Rubens for behaving like a man instead of being Brawn's room maid. ;)

This time, I have to disagree. I think bunsen was faster and gained the pass legitimately. If Rubens wanted to behave like a man, he should have approached Brawn privately and not via the press. OK! that's my view anyway.

I do realise the Brawn's room maid remark is a result from Austria, but that is a different story.

[Valve Bounce]

That is not terribly likely. Brawn is a rational man who believes his team has a chance to win both championships. There isn't anyone who can replace Rubens who gives Brawn GP a shot at the WCC.

ClarkFan

Are you sure?

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I just watched the race again (from my tape), and it was very obvious that Rubens was too slow. OK! he was held up by his best friend Massa, but after Massa pulled into the pits, he was a lot slower than Mark who was on a heavier load and on the slower tyres. For him to tell the media he didn't want to hear the Blah, blah, blah, blah from his team was ill considered.

If I was the team principle, I would replace him with the reserve driver asap.

[markabilly]

Well, I just watched the race again (from my tape), and it was very obvious that Rubens was too slow. OK! he was held up by his best friend Massa, but after Massa pulled into the pits, he was a lot slower than Mark who was on a heavier load and on the slower tyres. For him to tell the media he didn't want to hear the Blah, blah, blah, blah from his
team was ill considered.

If I was the team principle, I would replace him with the reserve driver asap.
that

was my point

when he should have been faster, he was not

and all the fuss about the fuel rig, well you have to wonder about exactly what was going on....

but that time lost was probably less than what webber sufferred on his drive thro,,,,


so if he had ended up second, he might have had grounds for fussing, but he ended up behind massa and rosberg (and vittels along with jennie)

and the 11th fastest? Well???? :confused:

as to sacking, big deal ----he will be gone soon enough-----maybe speedie might pop in

I think that rb has been rear punted by brawn so many times when he had to run behind MS and now button, rubens don;t know anymore as to when it was just the car and when it is just secret team orders :rolleyes:

[ioan]

About 3 in the first few corners.

I suppose I need to count them myself to prove you wrong.

But I'm not sure if it's worth it, you'll only come out with some other stuff...

You can count as much as you like, but you can't support such an ignorant claim as your previous one given that Fisi and Rosberg overtook together almost double as many cars as Button did.

[ioan]

Sorry ioan that's bollocks. The strategy was the problem for BOTH Brawns, not just Rubens.

Who said otherwise?!

[ioan]

This time, I have to disagree. I think bunsen was faster and gained the pass legitimately.

You can disagree, no problems, but I don't think you are right given that he had 2 laps on fumes and soft tires and barely came out in front of Rubens who meanwhile was running with fuel on board and with harder tires.

IMO, given that Button only managed to find 0.5 seconds while having a weight and tire advantage for 2 laps shows that he wasn't faster than Rubens and he only got the place because Brawn wanted it so.

[ioan]

If I was the team principle, I would replace him with the reserve driver asap.

Only that their reserve driver is Davidson, who just can't race.
I'd take Rubens twice before even thinking about the ant.

[ArrowsFA1]

Shafted? He was beaten fair and square. He was simply far slower again.
About 0.5s slower according to the fastest laps.

While you can understand RB's frustration I think what we saw in the interview was what we have seen from Rubens before. The trouble is this kind of outburst is only likely to make things worse for him within the team. It's certainly not helpful.

[ioan]

About 0.5s slower according to the fastest laps.


One lap out of 60! :laugh:

[ArrowsFA1]

One lap out of 60! :laugh:
ioan, it's not one lap. The fastest lap RB was able to do throughout the whole race was 0.5s slower than any lap JB managed throught the whole race.

[Valve Bounce]

Who said otherwise?!

I did. Rubens was just too bloody slow. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

Only that their reserve driver is Davidson, who just can't race.
I'd take Rubens twice before even thinking about the ant.

Of course you would.
I wouldn't!

[Valve Bounce]

One lap out of 60! :laugh:

No! Rubens was slow after Massa went into the pits. Mark was gaining massively on him with a heavier fuel load and on slower tyres. He was slow, slow, slow. He was holding bunsen up, and now you guys are blaming Brawn for Rubens being bog slow.

Ioan, you believed in fastest lap on another argument recently; well Rubens best was 11th fastest. So what do you think of that?

I'm sorry I asked. :(

[ioan]

ioan, it's not one lap. The fastest lap RB was able to do throughout the whole race was 0.5s slower than any lap JB managed throught the whole race.

Really? That means that after starting just behind Rubens (like 0.5 seconds behind) and going at least 0.5 seconds per lap faster for 60 laps, which means an advantage of 30 seconds, plus 4 seconds lost by rubens with refueling problems = 34 seconds advantage for Jenson.

Now if I remove those 0.5 seconds he started behind it means that Jenson should have beaten Rubens by 34-0.5 - 33.5 seconds!

If I'm not mistaken, and I'm sure I'm not, he only finished a couple tenths in front of Rubens, so I'm not really sure as how you can say something like that without thinking about it.

[ioan]

I think the main issue here is Rubens acted in an unprofessional manner and there is no escaping that.

Just watch him, he'll do it again next time they screw him and they can do nothing about it if they want to have the smallest chance in the championship. Why is that?! Because Button needs Rubens to set up the car.

Did you realize that every time the car is not perfectly adapted to a circuit Rubens is better than Jensy? I wonder why is that.

PS: Everyone complains that drivers have become PR robots and only tow the corporate line etc... than when one dares to say what he thinks he gets scolded! Double standards? BS? Hypocrisy?! Pick your option! :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Of course you would.
I wouldn't!

I know, you're biased. You've been chanting Ant odes for a couple of years.
Do you really believe he is that good but somehow no one wants to give him a seat in a F1 car?!
Just look how he was outperformed by Sato at Super Aguri, the guy might be the perfect test driver like many others, but as a racer he's a zero.

[ArrowsFA1]

Really? That means that after starting just behind Rubens (like 0.5 seconds behind) and going at least 0.5 seconds per lap faster for 60 laps...
Sorry ioan, perhaps there's a misunderstanding here but Button was not 0.5s quicker every lap :crazy:

What the fastest laps show, IMHO, is the best laptime that could be extracted from the car under the same race conditions, and Barrichello was slower than Button in those terms.

[ioan]

Sorry ioan, perhaps there's a misunderstanding here but Button was not 0.5s quicker every lap :crazy:

What the fastest laps show, IMHO, is the best laptime that could be extracted from the car under the same race conditions, and Barrichello was slower than Button in those terms.

Well he wasn't even quicker every lap, which is normal.
Saying he was so much faster based on one fast lap is pants, and you know it full well, otherwise I can't see why Alonso and Trulli didn't finish 1st and 2nd and how Massa managed to finish 3rd with only the 8th fastest lap.
Maybe it's all about consistency?!

PS: Fastest lap means nothing if you can't stay within 1% of it for a fair part of the race, as we saw with Alonso and Trulli yesterday, who were miles ahead of the rest for one lap!

[christophulus]

Only that their reserve driver is Davidson, who just can't race.

I thought Wurz was the reserve driver too? At the start of the year no one really confirmed what was going on there.

Regardless, Barrichello will be there until the end of the season, unless he himself decides to walk which I can see happening...

[ioan]

I thought Wurz was the reserve driver too?

Wurz is a consultant as the team couldn't afford to pay him for the test driver role. He said it himself live during commentary for the Austrian television.



Regardless, Barrichello will be there until the end of the season, unless he himself decides to walk which I can see happening...

I think that might happen if they keep messing with him. He's not willing to take any BS anymore from the team.

[ioan]

Here's a recent example ioan of where it was unacceptable to criticize his team to the press in your opinion...

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133808

Post number 5 btw...

Why is it different in Barrichello's case, when Ruben's went alot further with his criticism?? :)

Maybe the difference is that Rubens was willing to race but got letdown while Hamilton says that he doesn't even know why they show up to a race?!

Next time you quote something read it first, carefully. :p :

[ClarkFan]

Yeah! and Eddie would sack him by sending him a fax.


No, Eddie would fire him by stopping payment on his last paycheck.


Provided Eddie had written him the paycheck in the first place.....


Provided that there were funds in the account to cover the check.....


Maybe Eddie wouldn't fire him if Rubens would work for free....

:crazy:

ClarkFan

[ioan]

No, Eddie would fire him by stopping payment on his last paycheck.


Provided Eddie had written him the paycheck in the first place.....


Provided that there were funds in the account to cover the check.....


Maybe Eddie wouldn't fire him if Rubens would work for free....

:crazy:

ClarkFan

Eddie is just a sad little man, and he's comments during races show that he didn't grasp much about F1 no matter how involved he ever was. No wonder he was forced out of business in the end.

[Dave B]

ioan, it's not one lap. The fastest lap RB was able to do throughout the whole race was 0.5s slower than any lap JB managed throught the whole race.
Again, there you go dragging facts into the argument. Are you new here? :p

[ioan]

Again, there you go dragging facts into the argument. Are you new here? :p

No, he like yo, is just awfull at maths, and probably with English too. :p :
I can't see how he can otherwise state that Jenson's slowest lap during the race was 0.5 seconds fastest than Rubens fastest lap! And you are supporting such a poor attempt to logic and maths. :D

[ioan]

As opposed to the team sabotaging the race in Ruben's claim... Face it, you are constantly contradicting yourself ...

I could face that if you made sense at all. But that isn't the case so I'm clearly not contradicting myself in any way.

Where did Rubens say the team sabotaged his race? All he said is that he couldn't win the race because the team chose the wrong strategy and because there was a fuel rig problem.

Stop making up things no one said and concentrate on what was actually said.

Yesterday was just another perfect example of why Rubens never deserved equal status at Ferrari.

[Valve Bounce]

I think that Rubens pace during the entire race was never that great. Mark was told very early on to look after his tyres as it would be no problem getting past Rubens when he makes his first pit stop. The fact that Rubens looked to be leading the race so easily was because Kovi was holding everybody else up. When Rubens was behind Massa, Martin kept commenting that Massa was holding him up, but when Massa pulled into the pits, Rubens was no faster.

Brawn explained why Rubens couldn't win - he was too slow and that his best lap was 11th fastest of all the drivers. I think Brawn would have the facts correct on this one.

[Valve Bounce]

Here's what Frank Williams had to say: Speaking on the BBC's F1 forum after the race, Williams boss Frank Williams described Barrichello's outburst as "a bit of a red card job" but he said it would not be enough for him to sack a driver.

"It's a very unusual thing for a driver to say," he said.

"In his defence, he was very hot and bothered, having just stepped out of the car and maybe his judgement deserted him for a few moments.

"I would swallow my pride, have a wee word and try to make him think differently - but it couldn't be tolerated again.

"He'd certainly get a severe dressing down, but that's all."

The seriousness of the open verbal attack on Ross Brawn was underscored By Frank saying: "...but it wouldn't be tolerated again".

[Tazio]

Here's what Frank Williams had to say: Speaking on the BBC's F1 forum after the race, Williams boss Frank Williams described Barrichello's outburst as "a bit of a red card job" but he said it would not be enough for him to sack a driver.

"It's a very unusual thing for a driver to say," he said.

"In his defence, he was very hot and bothered, having just stepped out of the car and maybe his judgement deserted him for a few moments.

"I would swallow my pride, have a wee word and try to make him think differently - but it couldn't be tolerated again.

"He'd certainly get a severe dressing down, but that's all."

The seriousness of the open verbal attack on Ross Brawn was underscored By Frank saying: "...but it wouldn't be tolerated again".
I think Frank is probably fair in his observation. Here are Rubens comments after he spoke with "The Team"
"I had a great start and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision.
After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position.
It was a combination of things really, which are now very clear to me, having spoken to the team.
We didn't have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win"

[Valve Bounce]

I think Frank is probably fair in his observation. Here are Rubens comments after he spoke with "The Team"
"I had a great start and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision.
After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position.
It was a combination of things really, which are now very clear to me, having spoken to the team.
We didn't have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win"

If he really thinks about it, had Kovi not held up many of the faster guys, Rubens may not have scored any points at all with his lack of pace.

[Tazio]

If he really thinks about it, had Kovi not held up many of the faster guys, Rubens may not have scored any points at all with his lack of pace.A lot of ifs.
If he didn't have the fuel rig problem do you think NR would have passed him on the track?
Hard to say!

[Valve Bounce]

A lot of ifs.
If he didn't have the fuel rig problem do you think NR would have passed him on the track?
Hard to say!

Hard to say, Taz. Passing at this race appeared to be an impossibility for most cars. I was following the race on Live Timing also, and I did notice that Kovi was holding up a helluva lot of cars. On the other hand, if you look at IF in a mirror, it is F1. :p :

[Tazio]

HK was holding up a lot of cars. Even without the aero upgrades that Lewis got, his car with KERS was a point winner.
If Lewis hadn't trashed his car on the first lap he may have even been able to hold up Button.
Something that Massa couldn't do, but Lewis was lighter than Massa!

BTW racecar spelled backwards is racecar :confused:

[ioan]

If he really thinks about it, had Kovi not held up many of the faster guys, Rubens may not have scored any points at all with his lack of pace.

Guys, you should not read to much into fastest laps.
Here's a bit of food for thought regarding fastest laps in the last race:

Webber wasn't fastest but he won.
Vettel wasn't 2nd fastest still he arrived 2nd.
Massa was only 8th fastest in the fastest laps chart, still he got 3rd by quite a margin.

On the other hand FA was fastest but only managed 7th.
And Trulli was 2nd fastest but didn't even see point.

Racing in F1 is all about being consistently fast not about pulling a couple of fast laps when it happens to a driver to hit the sweet spot by chance.

These days you can be somehwere mid list on the fastest laps chart but if you have all your laps with 0.5% of that time you can win the race without problems.

[ioan]

HK was holding up a lot of cars. Even without the aero upgrades that Lewis got, his car with KERS was a point winner.
If Lewis hadn't trashed his car on the first lap he may have even been able to hold up Button.
Something that Massa couldn't do, but Lewis was lighter than Massa!

BTW racecar spelled backwards is racecar :confused:

Lewis could have got a great result and probably challenged Webber for the win given the drive through penalty. He just got unlucky and the driver who punctured his rear tire got the win.

[ArrowsFA1]

Rubens now says:

“I had a great start today and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision. After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position. It was a combination of things really which are now very clear to me having spoken to the team. We didn’t have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win but the fuel rig problem at my second stop where we had to switch rigs probably cost me a place on the podium. That dropped me out behind Rosberg and the extra lap which Jenson had at our final stops was enough for him to get ahead of me. We’ll put this race behind and work really hard ahead to Hungary to try and catch up to the Red Bulls. Congratulations to Mark for his first win.”
Source - http://www.brawngp.com

[Mark]

So much for "I don't want to hear all the blah, blah, blah"

[ioan]

That's just a BrawnGP PR stunt.

[ArrowsFA1]

That's just a BrawnGP PR stunt.
And this...?

Rubens Barrichello says he is now over his anger that erupted at the German Grand Prix - after realizing that his Brawn team did not cost him the chance of victory...writing on his own Twitter feed (http://twitter.com/rubarrichello) after arriving in the United States on Monday, Barrichello said that post-race reflections had changed his view of the situation.
"I was very upset yesterday but I am over it," he wrote. "I would not have won the race as the Red Bulls were half a second faster per lap, but third was very possible without the pit problems."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76957

[wedge]

That's just a BrawnGP PR stunt.

You mean like in Austria 2001/2002?

"Remember Rubens, don't say anything silly..."

[stevie_gerrard]

I can understand his frustration, he is so unfortunate sometimes.

[ioan]

And this...?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76957

Well that is not the same thing with what the Brwan PR wrote, is it?! :rolleyes:
He still maintains he could have been 3rd and not 6th!

[markabilly]

I think Frank is probably fair in his observation. Here are Rubens comments after he spoke with "The Team"
"I had a great start and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision.
After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position.
It was a combination of things really, which are now very clear to me, having spoken to the team.
We didn't have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win"


that was after the edit....

before the edit it was :

“I had a great start today and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision. After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position. It was a combination of things really which are now very clear to me having spoken to the team and listened to their miserable excuses for their having failed me again and all the other blah, blah, blah. We didn’t have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win but the fuel rig problem at my second stop where we had to switch rigs due to secret team orders designed to keep me behind button probably cost me a place on the podium. That dropped me out behind Rosberg and the extra lap which Jenson had given to him by Ross at our final stops was enough for him to get ahead of me when I was called in three laps too early. We’ll put this race behind and up my butt and work really hard ahead to Hungary to try and catch up to the Red Bulls. Congratulations to Mark for his first win that should have been mine.”

[I am evil Homer]

Can't help but feel that's right on the moeny Markabilly. PR team in overdrive at Brawn coiming up with more spin than a badly worn rear tyre

[Bagwan]

I still haven't heard any explanation about why the back-up rig was not programmed to give the same amount of fuel that Rubens expected .
He though he was on a 2-stopper , and was informed afterwards he was still on the 3-stop strategy .
Why was the back-up rig programmed differently ?

[ShiftingGears]

Yesterday was just another perfect example of why Rubens never deserved equal status at Ferrari.

Yep, he keeps digging holes. Which then prompts the team to support the other driver more. Which prompts Rubens to dig more holes. And so on.

[markabilly]

I still haven't heard any explanation about why the back-up rig was not programmed to give the same amount of fuel that Rubens expected .
He though he was on a 2-stopper , and was informed afterwards he was still on the 3-stop strategy .
Why was the back-up rig programmed differently ?
what makes you think the primary was actually broken?

that was a pitiful little attempt.....as to the back up, do the words ....secret team orders......mean anything?????

:D

[ioan]

that was after the edit....

before the edit it was :

“I had a great start today and was really pleased to have got ahead of Mark down into the first corner despite our collision. After leading on the first lap, it is of course hugely disappointing to have finished in sixth position. It was a combination of things really which are now very clear to me having spoken to the team and listened to their miserable excuses for their having failed me again and all the other blah, blah, blah. We didn’t have enough pace compared to the Red Bulls to win but the fuel rig problem at my second stop where we had to switch rigs due to secret team orders designed to keep me behind button probably cost me a place on the podium. That dropped me out behind Rosberg and the extra lap which Jenson had given to him by Ross at our final stops was enough for him to get ahead of me when I was called in three laps too early. We’ll put this race behind and up my butt and work really hard ahead to Hungary to try and catch up to the Red Bulls. Congratulations to Mark for his first win that should have been mine.”

:D :up:

[ioan]

Yep, he keeps digging holes. Which then prompts the team to support the other driver more. Which prompts Rubens to dig more holes. And so on.

At the end of teh season when maybe Button will have beaten Webber to the title by just one point, you might think different about what you just posted re Brawn screwing Rubens for Jensy sevreal times this season and it's only half way through it.

[ShiftingGears]

At the end of teh season when maybe Button will have beaten Webber to the title by just one point, you might think different about what you just posted re Brawn screwing Rubens for Jensy sevreal times this season and it's only half way through it.

I am right regardless of what the final result is.

[markabilly]

I would be extremely disappointed if I was to learn that Mclaren were not the only liars in the field.. Are you suggesting Brawn have lied to the media in order to favour Jenson? I thought the constructors championship was what was important to the team and actually getting both drivers in the points. Not (and I use this word again) 'sabotaging' one drivers race to allow to other to gain more WDC points... I can't get my head around that one.. :D

there are various drugs that can help you, but i only recomend kool aid as a last resort for anyone other than mac fans

for those mac fans, I already know they drink it heavy :D besides ross is thinking that it almost worked for mac till lewis blew his 17 point lead with two races to go by pushing the wrong button (not that Button, the button on the wheel)

as far as ferrari screwing up and kimi, they seem to be doing that just fine without even tryingmaybe if they adopted that strategy, they might get better results...

[ShiftingGears]

Cheers for the advice but what is 'Kool Aid' for the english speakers amongst us? I've heard it mentioned in American films but never taken any notice.. I think the Mac fans drink Johnnie Walker scotch whiskey as opposed to weak watered down sour mash etc etc... Seems to do the trick ;)

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drink+the+kool-aid

[Tazio]

Cheers for the advice but what is 'Kool Aid' for the english speakers amongst us? I've heard it mentioned in American films but never taken any notice..http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=drink+the+kool-aid



A reference to the 1978 cult mass-suicide in Jonestown, Guyana. Jim Jones, the leader of the group, convinced his followers to move to Jonestown. Late in the year he then ordered his flock to commit suicide by drinking grape-flavored Kool-Aid laced with potassium cyanide. In what is now commonly called "the Jonestown Massacre", 913 of the 1100 Jonestown residents drank the Kool-Aid and died.

One lasting legacy of the Jonestown tragedy is the saying, “Don’t drink the Kool-Aid.” This has come to mean, "Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side." or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly".

The phrase can also be used in the opposite sense to indicate that one has embraced a particular philosophy or perspective.
Alice: Hey, did you hear that Joe is working on the Nader campaign?
Bob: Yeah, he really drank the Kool-Aid on that one.

Chris: I'm thinking about attending a PETA rally
Donna: Whatever you do, don't drink the Kool-Aid!

[ioan]

I am right regardless of what the final result is.

You're right about what?! :laugh:

[ShiftingGears]

You're right about what?! :laugh:

Rubens digging his holes deeper.

[Bagwan]

Just make sure you have the back-up rig set for Jensen's stop .
We wouldn't want to have any screw-ups on his strategy , would we ?

[markabilly]

One interesting part from the link was: Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side." or "Whatever they tell you, don't believe it too strongly".

Does this piece of advice apply to all of Markabilly's posts?? :p I'm guessing it does.. Afterall he recommended it ;)

Don’t trust any group you find to be a little on the kooky side
or anyone, i would add.

so, to explain it so you and the udder brit speakers can understand, :s mokin:

in addition to me, there is bernie, max, fia, maclaren, ron dennis, lewis, bama, plain plalin, kimi if he ever decides to say smoething serious, ioan, pino and the rest of posters around here, esp. that henners character who is always right about being right when he is right when right right after he drank the aid.........(sorry i did not mention all the rest by name, i is a slow typer of typos)

[AndyL]

I still haven't heard any explanation about why the back-up rig was not programmed to give the same amount of fuel that Rubens expected .
He though he was on a 2-stopper , and was informed afterwards he was still on the 3-stop strategy .
Why was the back-up rig programmed differently ?

I'm not sure they ever intended to switch to a 2-stopper. I suspect Rubens thought he had been switched because of the length of time he was held in the pits with the fuel hose on.

Edit: in fact I think Ross Brawn said afterwards that the intention was to make it a quick stop, to get track position on Rosberg. Of course with the fuel rig problem, that failed.

[ioan]

Rubens digging his holes deeper.

Rubens isn't digging any hole. The moment he wants to go he's out and can show Brawn the middle finger for all he had to endure.

Don't forget he's wealthier than any of the people in his team.

[ioan]

I was appaulled at his unprofessionalism but I am quite a rational person who is willing to forgive good old Rubens...

Like if he needs your forgiveness! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
You're killing me! :laugh:
Do you come up yourself with such pearl?! :rotflmao:

[ioan]

As opposed to the pathetic simpletons on here that continually bringing up events on here to rubbish drivers, regardless of the topic matter. Ever heard of forgiving someone in a hypothetical sense, or indirectly? You continually point out to people to read before they post and then you post a howler like this?

Now you know what 90% of the people on this forum feel like when reading through post after post of your opinionated dribble. Welcome to the club mon amis...


Fall on a spike :)

I hope you will be OK after the spike episode, but I still believe that Rubens can leave a very very happy life without your forgiveness.

I might have understood what you meant in your previous post, but it still was, let's say very funny.

[jens]

Did I see it right that Barrichello was given slower hard tyres also for the last stint unlike Button? Probably just because he would then struggle to warm up his tyres on his outlap, so that Jenson could "outpit" him. I agree that RB's second stint was slow, but he was shafted again and the strategy was poor. Brawn didn't do much more than just some glorylaps in Q3 in the light of race results.

During the season I have noticed some people saying things like "during Schumacher-era Brawn was favouring MS, but now both drivers have equal rights." An extremely hypocritical statement, IMO.

We may think that Rubens' anger was too harsh, but on the other hand it is understandable if we take into account the background - once again he is a lapdog. He simply can't tolerate this any more. He knows that no matter how will he drive from now on, he will always get organized behind Bunsen and he has a grand total of zero title chances. And those, who say that his views don't make any good to the relationship with the team - I'd say it doesn't matter any more, because I think he is out of the team after this season anyway. He was at Ferrari for six seasons and is probably so fed up of it now that he will refuse to turn into a No.2 on a consistent basis again.

Taking all this into account, the rumours, which send Barrichello to Williams, make perfect sense. Probably Rubens tries to get into a team, where he can finally feel like a #1 driver and with someone like Nakajima as his team-mate his demands are easily accomplishable. With Williams being fairly competitive at the moment, they seems like a reasonable solution and bet. I think Rubens could/should consider Renault too, because they would be without a decent lead driver as well if Alonso leaves.

I think Rubens could/should consider Renault too, because they would be without a decent lead driver as well if Alonso leaves.

And how would Renault having Rubens in the team help with that?

Rubens isn't a team leader, nor was a team leader. He's a very good Number Two....or he would be, if he wasn't so deluded as to think he isn't.

[jens]

And how would Renault having Rubens in the team help with that?

Rubens isn't a team leader, nor was a team leader. He's a very good Number Two....or he would be, if he wasn't so deluded as to think he isn't.

Well, Renault could take Rubens if other competent drivers are not available. At the present moment I can't think of many drivers, who could possibly join Renault.
Barrichello was a team leader in Jordan and Stewart - and especially Stewart was improving nicely during his tenure there.

[chuck34]

Does anyone know where I can find each lap time turned by every driver? It's easy enough to plot out all the lap times, and see when one driver is faster than another. Looking at something like that graphically tells a whole bunch. That will prove whether Rubens was slow or if Button was handed the spot.

[Tazio]

Does anyone know where I can find each lap time turned by every driver? It's easy enough to plot out all the lap times, and see when one driver is faster than another. Looking at something like that graphically tells a whole bunch. That will prove whether Rubens was slow or if Button was handed the spot.Chuck you might want to PM "PSFan"
He has a neat program that actually shows the cars as dots moving on the course.
I don't know if the site archives them, but I think it would be very telling.
I'd like to see it myself!

[ShiftingGears]

Rubens isn't digging any hole. The moment he wants to go he's out and can show Brawn the middle finger for all he had to endure.


No, he wants to win.

[Valve Bounce]

There are lap charts at F1.com, but I couldn't find archived lap times there

[ShiftingGears]

There are lap charts at F1.com, but I couldn't find archived lap times there

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ger09_race_analysis.pdf

Is that what you're looking for?

[chuck34]

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/ger09_race_analysis.pdf

Is that what you're looking for?

Thanks man that is exaclty it. Unfortunatly I just found out that I am going to have to leave on business, and won't be back until Monday.

But what I was thinking of doing was to just plot those times in Excel or something like that. If someone else could do that, it's really easy. And like I said, plotting out the times really says a lot.

[Bagwan]

Try Visionf1 .
Not graphs , but rather graphic .

[Tazio]

Thanks Bags! I forgot to bookmark it last time. :up:

[Garry Walker]

No it wasn't orchestrated, but it happened. Didn't it?! So? It has happened before, will happen again, very little they can do about it.




Go watch the race again, they show the fuel volume taken on board at every stop, if you don't believe them than just time the refueling periods during the pit stops.

Do you have any facts that support your view that RB was given more fuel than JB at the last pitstop? You do realize that the amount of fuel taken onboard is not 100% correct at all times, because it is human timed and the data does not come from the teams. Now realizing that, and it being so that we dont know how long RB was fuelled for (as the there were rig problems), we cannot be sure how much fuel exactly went into his car.

So I ask again, do you have any facts supporting your claims or not?

[ioan]

Try Visionf1 .
Not graphs , but rather graphic .

But it doesn't show speeds, only track position.

[ioan]

So? It has happened before, will happen again, very little they can do about it.

You believe in fatality?!
Next time you'll say it was God's will? :rolleyes:

[BillBald]

He knows that no matter how will he drive from now on, he will always get organized behind Bunsen and he has a grand total of zero title chances.

How does he know that? When has he driven well, apart from occasional good qualifying and good starts?

Every time he has found himself in front of Button, he has held him up.

Of course Brawn will always want to get the faster driver in front, it would be surprising if it were otherwise.

[ioan]

How does he know that?

He's got experience already! :D

[BillBald]

When has he driven well, apart from occasional good qualifying and good starts?


It seems I have to repeat my question.

[Valve Bounce]

It seems I have to repeat my question.

OK!! I'll bite - when?? :confused:

[Roamy]

RB is the perfect teammate - Cries at all the right times and then pulls over when you need it!!

[BillBald]

OK!! I'll bite - when?? :confused:

I can't think of a single occasion this year when Rubens has driven well for an entire weekend - which is what is needed to win.

Some people claim that he was 'robbed' of a win in Barcelona.

That was just one of his good starts. Having got ahead, he held Jenson up for a few laps, before Jenson was released by the team strategy.

It's very clear that he was holding Jenson up, his lead was never more than 1.5 secs. On a circuit like Barcelona, you can't follow more closely without ruining your tyres. If you know anything about F1, you will know that.

[ioan]

I can't think of a single occasion this year when Rubens has driven well for an entire weekend - which is what is needed to win.

Some people claim that he was 'robbed' of a win in Barcelona.

That was just one of his good starts. Having got ahead, he held Jenson up for a few laps, before Jenson was released by the team strategy.

It's very clear that he was holding Jenson up, his lead was never more than 1.5 secs. On a circuit like Barcelona, you can't follow more closely without ruining your tyres. If you know anything about F1, you will know that.

Rubens did great in Spain and was screwed by the team. There you have it I hope this refreshed your memory.

[BillBald]

Rubens did great in Spain and was screwed by the team. There you have it I hope this refreshed your memory.

Why do you keep posting replies, when you have nothing to say?

[ioan]

Why do you keep posting replies, when you have nothing to say?

For the same reason you keep asking the same useless question again and again and again! :rotflmao:

[BillBald]

For the same reason you keep asking the same useless question again and again and again! :rotflmao:

It's because you have no answer, that I know it's the right question!! ;)

[ioan]

In fact your problem is that you can't accept that you are dead wrong.
Don't worry it will sink in and you'll get over it. :laugh:

[chuck34]

Ok here goes. I hope this works, I've never attached anything on this forum.

Remember these are times, so the lower the graph is, the faster the lap was.

So what I see is that Rubens was faster until the first stop. Then Button was faster until just before the second stop. Then they were fairly close until the end, with Button being slightly faster on some laps.

I don't remeber what happened when for most of the race, but I'm sure that you guys can fill in the reasons for the time differences.

Enjoy.

[Valve Bounce]

Ok here goes. I hope this works, I've never attached anything on this forum.

Remember these are times, so the lower the graph is, the faster the lap was.

So what I see is that Rubens was faster until the first stop. Then Button was faster until just before the second stop. Then they were fairly close until the end, with Button being slightly faster on some laps.

I don't remeber what happened when for most of the race, but I'm sure that you guys can fill in the reasons for the time differences.

Enjoy.

As previously discussed, Kovi was holding up a lot of cars on Rubens's first stint, and Mark Webber was told to just follow Rubens as he had more fuel and could easily pass Rubens during the latter's first pit stop.

Can't remember what happened during the second stint. During the third stint, bunsen radio-ed his pits and told them that Rubens was seriously holding him up and if he could not get past him, Massa would catch him up.

[BillBald]

It's happened a lot this season, that you have commentators going on about a 'dominant' performance by Jenson, or Vettel, and now Webber.

Often it's nothing of the kind, it's just that the other main contenders got trapped behind a slower car. Often that slower car was running KERS.

Now that Macca are becoming more competitive, I'm expecting it to happen even more. One car beats the KERS brigade to turn 1, and cruises to an easy win, others who are really equally fast, are 20 seconds behind at the end of the first stint.

[ioan]

Can't remember what happened during the second stint.

Rubens was stuck behind Felipe for 10 laps or so. :D

[ShiftingGears]

It's happened a lot this season, that you have commentators going on about a 'dominant' performance by Jenson, or Vettel, and now Webber.

Often it's nothing of the kind, it's just that the other main contenders got trapped behind a slower car. Often that slower car was running KERS.

Now that Macca are becoming more competitive, I'm expecting it to happen even more. One car beats the KERS brigade to turn 1, and cruises to an easy win, others who are really equally fast, are 20 seconds behind at the end of the first stint.

True.

[Valve Bounce]

Rubens was stuck behind Felipe for 10 laps or so. :D

Except that when Massa went into the pits, Rubens couldn't go any faster. I think I already mentioned that above.

[Valve Bounce]

It's happened a lot this season, that you have commentators going on about a 'dominant' performance by Jenson, or Vettel, and now Webber.

Often it's nothing of the kind, it's just that the other main contenders got trapped behind a slower car. Often that slower car was running KERS.

Now that Macca are becoming more competitive, I'm expecting it to happen even more. One car beats the KERS brigade to turn 1, and cruises to an easy win, others who are really equally fast, are 20 seconds behind at the end of the first stint.
Agreed.

[ioan]

Except that when Massa went into the pits, Rubens couldn't go any faster. I think I already mentioned that above.

Given how the tires fall apart like chewing gum after 8 laps or no wonder he couldn't go faster after 10 laps.

[Valve Bounce]

Given how the tires fall apart like chewing gum after 8 laps or no wonder he couldn't go faster after 10 laps.

So what is he complaining about? The fact remains that he was too slow. 11th fastest to be precise.

[ioan]

So what is he complaining about? The fact remains that he was too slow. 11th fastest to be precise.

According to what? Fastest race laps?!

Let's get one thing straight, Alonso wasn't the fastest in the German GP, He was only 7th fastest, the fastest was Webber.
Trulli wasn't 2nd fastest, it's Vettel who gets this position.

If fastest laps would mean something than Kimi Raikkonen would have been last years WDC, we all know he wasn't.

F1 is about winning the race with constant lap times, not about cooking your tires for getting a fastest lap out of 60 or 70.

The day you grasped this basic aspect of F1 I'll consider you finally understand this sport.

[chuck34]

F1 is about winning the race with constant lap times, not about cooking your tires for getting a fastest lap out of 60 or 70.





Given how the tires fall apart like chewing gum after 8 laps or no wonder he couldn't go faster after 10 laps.

Perhaps you should talk to your boy, Rubens.

[ioan]

Perhaps you should talk to your boy, Rubens.

Sorry but your post makes no sense whatsoever.

PS: Button's tires behaved the same way. :p :

[chuck34]

Sorry but your post makes no sense whatsoever.

PS: Button's tires behaved the same way. :p :

Let me spell it out for you then. You said that Rubens tires "fell off" after 8 laps, which is your reason for him not going faster. Then in a later post you said that winning races is about consistant lap times, not cooking your tires. So perhaps if Rubens had saved his tires a bit while he was "being held up" by Massa, then he would have been able to go faster after Massa pitted.

[ioan]

Let me spell it out for you then. You said that Rubens tires "fell off" after 8 laps, which is your reason for him not going faster. Then in a later post you said that winning races is about consistant lap times, not cooking your tires. So perhaps if Rubens had saved his tires a bit while he was "being held up" by Massa, then he would have been able to go faster after Massa pitted.

Keep your spelling lessons for your family.

If you would have read and understood what I posted when I said that winning a race wasn't about cooking your tires for one fast lap than you would know that I wasn't talking about Rubens, and for that matter Button either. They didn't destroy their tires because they tried to do a fast lap, like Alonso or Trulli did. They couldn't even get their tires to the optimum working temperature. let alone cook them.

I guess that trolling is easy for you as you don't need to get things right, nor do you need to have seen and understood the race. :rolleyes:

[chuck34]

Keep your spelling lessons for your family.

If you would have read and understood what I posted when I said that winning a race wasn't about cooking your tires for one fast lap than you would know that I wasn't talking about Rubens, and for that matter Button either. They didn't destroy their tires because they tried to do a fast lap, like Alonso or Trulli did. They couldn't even get their tires to the optimum working temperature. let alone cook them.

I guess that trolling is easy for you as you don't need to get things right, nor do you need to have seen and understood the race. :rolleyes:

You have no idea who I am or what I do for a living. So don't tell me that I don't understand how racing works.

You basically said that Rubens' tires were done after being behind Massa. Then you say that's not his fault. Well I will tell you, if he was really being held up by Massa, he could have backed off a fraction, and saved his tires. Therefore having tires left for some fast laps AFTER Massa pitted.

You seem to be the one who doesn't understand. So maybe you are trolling.

[jens]

Here is some constant talk about Rubens and "cooking his tyres up", but didn't Brawn have an opposite problem in that race? That they couldn't get temperature into tyres at all? So how did RB actually 'destroy' his tyres in the process?

[chuck34]

Here is some constant talk about Rubens and "cooking his tyres up", but didn't Brawn have an opposite problem in that race? That they couldn't get temperature into tyres at all? So how did RB actually 'destroy' his tyres in the process?

I'm not saying that he did. It was Ioan that said that. Right before he said that winning races was about taking care of your tires. My thought is that Rubens just wasn't as fast as Button for whatever reason.

Not having tires up to temp, and trying to push them hard is actually much worse (in most cases) than having them up to temp before pushing them. These compounds are ment to work in a specific temperature range. Too cold, and the treads will basically start to rip apart from the polymer chains being "too brittle". Too hot, and they will rip apart because the polymer chains have lost strength. Both of which will look like graining on a TV. But if you see the tires up close they are a bit different.

I do realise that the Brawn cars are easy on tires. And that will play into their advantage for most of the season. However, it was actually a disadvantage last weekend in the cold.

[ioan]

You have no idea who I am or what I do for a living.

And I don't even care.


You basically said that Rubens' tires were done after being behind Massa. Then you say that's not his fault. Well I will tell you, if he was really being held up by Massa, he could have backed off a fraction, and saved his tires. Therefore having tires left for some fast laps AFTER Massa pitted.

Looks like you can't grasp the basics about F1 tires and their usage. If Rubens would have went slower his tires would have been even colder => less grip => more graining => the tires would have been destroyed even faster.

Now, if you are working in F1 I'd suggest your boss to fire you because you lack the most basic knowledge.

[ioan]

I'm not saying that he did. It was Ioan that said that.

Where did I say that Rubens destroyed his tires?! :confused:
Please do provide a link to where I stated that. Because I certainly didn't say such.

[airshifter]

I think everyone is missing Ioans point. Fastest laps mean nothing really, consistent or average laps times mean more. Actually an easy example of this is the "faster" car finishing behind the "slower" car. If those terms were used based on average laps, you'll find that the car behind can't turn averages faster than the car ahead, at least not for long.

If they did turn faster averages they would have to be in front. At the end of the day fast laps mean nothing if you aren't on the podium. :)

[Tazio]

Chuck you provided an excellent graph! :up:
As with almost every sport, statitics by themselves are not a very definative representation of an event,
unless they are extremely one-sided!

[Valve Bounce]

According to what? Fastest race laps?!

Let's get one thing straight, Alonso wasn't the fastest in the German GP, He was only 7th fastest, the fastest was Webber.
Trulli wasn't 2nd fastest, it's Vettel who gets this position.

If fastest laps would mean something than Kimi Raikkonen would have been last years WDC, we all know he wasn't.

F1 is about winning the race with constant lap times, not about cooking your tires for getting a fastest lap out of 60 or 70.

The day you grasped this basic aspect of F1 I'll consider you finally understand this sport.

That's a laugh!! The day I need you to consider anything about me, that's the day Mars will collide with earth. :eek:

[Valve Bounce]

Chuck you provided an excellent graph! :up:
As with almost every sport, statistics by themselves are not a very definitive representation of an event,
unless they are extremely one-sided!

Well, look at it this way, for those who know what they are looking for, like Brawn, ot's critical. However, when we combine what we can see in F1.com's Live Timing, and we can see who is going fast at critical periods of the race, then it also does mean a helluva lot.

[ioan]

I think everyone is missing Ioans point. Fastest laps mean nothing really, consistent or average laps times mean more. Actually an easy example of this is the "faster" car finishing behind the "slower" car. If those terms were used based on average laps, you'll find that the car behind can't turn averages faster than the car ahead, at least not for long.

If they did turn faster averages they would have to be in front. At the end of the day fast laps mean nothing if you aren't on the podium. :)

Exactly. :up:

[ioan]

That's a laugh!! The day I need you to consider anything about me, that's the day Mars will collide with earth. :eek:

Be my guest, laugh as much as you want, it won't make your wrong beliefs right.

[Valve Bounce]

Be my guest, laugh as much as you want, it won't make your wrong beliefs right.

Whatever you say, ioan, whatever you say. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Whatever you say, ioan, whatever you say. :rolleyes:

Don't despair Valve, one day you might get it right too. :laugh:

[Valve Bounce]

The "come-back kid" you are not but you have a good knack of winding people up.. ;)

Right now, the only person that ioan can wind up is himself, because he thinks he is the fountain of all knowledge and is always right. I accept that, and just move on. No need to get excited or annoyed - just understand what we are dealing with. :rolleyes:

[ioan]

Right now, the only person that ioan can wind up is himself, because he thinks he is the fountain of all knowledge and is always right. I accept that, and just move on.

Great! I knew you would acknowledge it sooner or later! :p

[ioan]

The "come-back kid" you are not but you have a good knack of winding people up.. ;)

Some people always wind up when they are told the truth. Valve will learn to live with it. ;)

[Valve Bounce]

Some people always wind up when they are told the truth. Valve will learn to live with it. ;)
Ioan!! please don't kid yourself. Your sniping have ceased winding me up when one of the mods advised me to just ignore your "I'm always right declarations".
But I do like to read your posts - some good for a laugh, although others seem to fall flat, but then that's also good for a laugh; Especially when you laugh at your own snipes.

[ioan]

Ioan!! please don't kid yourself. Your sniping have ceased winding me up when one of the mods advised me to just ignore your "I'm always right declarations".
But I do like to read your posts - some good for a laugh, although others seem to fall flat, but then that's also good for a laugh; Especially when you laugh at your own snipes.

Whatever floats you boat Valve, whatever floats your boat!
I won't lose sleep over your petty comments, no need to worry! :D :wave:

[Valve Bounce]

Whatever floats you boat Valve, whatever floats your boat!
I won't lose sleep over your petty comments, no need to worry! :D :wave:

I thought it was whatever floats ioan's boat? You are always right, even when everyone else is wrong.

And don't forget to have the final word.

[Bagwan]

There's something I'm missing here .
Airshifter , according to Ioan , interpretted his comments correctly .
He got it "exactly" right .

Somehow , Airshifter misses the hassle Ioan gets , for saying the same thing Ioan said .

Maybe those doing the hassling could say that Airshifter said it better , but that only excuses them for arguing the point up to that point .

And , rather than acknowledge the point , from either explanation , he is said to be a know-it-all , cynically .

I find it sad to see , especially because I understood Ioan just like Airshifter did in the first place .



This place sure is a hard place to communicate .

[ioan]

There's something I'm missing here .
Airshifter , according to Ioan , interpretted his comments correctly .
He got it "exactly" right .

Somehow , Airshifter misses the hassle Ioan gets , for saying the same thing Ioan said .

Maybe those doing the hassling could say that Airshifter said it better , but that only excuses them for arguing the point up to that point .

And , rather than acknowledge the point , from either explanation , he is said to be a know-it-all , cynically .

I find it sad to see , especially because I understood Ioan just like Airshifter did in the first place .



This place sure is a hard place to communicate .

I'm used to it Baggy! ;)
Thanks for pointing out the obvious. :)

[Valve Bounce]

There's something I'm missing here .
Airshifter , according to Ioan , interpretted his comments correctly .
He got it "exactly" right .

Somehow , Airshifter misses the hassle Ioan gets , for saying the same thing Ioan said .

Maybe those doing the hassling could say that Airshifter said it better , but that only excuses them for arguing the point up to that point .

And , rather than acknowledge the point , from either explanation , he is said to be a know-it-all , cynically .

I find it sad to see , especially because I understood Ioan just like Airshifter did in the first place .



This place sure is a hard place to communicate .

Baggy, did you read my post #223? And did you know that Brawn said that Rubens wasn't fast enough because he was only 11th fastest in the race, and he then went on to show Rubens the technical records to prove his point to Rubens?

Basically, my point here is that Rubens wasn't fast enough when it really mattered. Now this has nothing to do with any discussions I may have had bantering with ioan - I came to the conclusion when I was following the race on F1.com's Live Timing as well as on the webcast simultaneously.

[ioan]

You are absolutely right ioan...

...

Sorry I'm not helping things.... :p

You're right little troll. :D

[ioan]

Thanks :kiss:

No, no, no, stay away from me! :D

[Bagwan]

Baggy, did you read my post #223? And did you know that Brawn said that Rubens wasn't fast enough because he was only 11th fastest in the race, and he then went on to show Rubens the technical records to prove his point to Rubens?

Basically, my point here is that Rubens wasn't fast enough when it really mattered. Now this has nothing to do with any discussions I may have had bantering with ioan - I came to the conclusion when I was following the race on F1.com's Live Timing as well as on the webcast simultaneously.

If you drop the whole idea of who was slow and who was not , maybe you will see my point .
You had someone who agreed with Ioan , and you gave them no notice , while at the same time attacked him for the same opinion .

Is Airshifter a know-nothing loser as well ?
After all , he said "exactly" what Ioan said .
Or perhaps I'm a know-nothing loser as well , because I agree with those two .

[chuck34]

Where did I say that Rubens destroyed his tires?! :confused:
Please do provide a link to where I stated that. Because I certainly didn't say such.


Given how the tires fall apart like chewing gum after 8 laps or no wonder he couldn't go faster after 10 laps.

You didn't specifically say Rubens, I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact that if you are being held up by someone and can't save your tires, you are doing something wrong.

[chuck34]

And I don't even care.



Looks like you can't grasp the basics about F1 tires and their usage. If Rubens would have went slower his tires would have been even colder => less grip => more graining => the tires would have been destroyed even faster.

Now, if you are working in F1 I'd suggest your boss to fire you because you lack the most basic knowledge.

Perhaps it is you who does not understand how tires work. ALL TIRES, not just F1. If he would not have pushed them to the limit when they were cold they would NOT have been destroyed. Just because I don't post on the F1 boards very often, don't mistake that for me not watching, not caring, or not knowing what is going on

I don't work in F1, but I do work in a field VERY close to the concept at hand. And your boss should fire you for not having basic manners. Insulting someone you don't know for no reason is not the way the world works.

[Valve Bounce]

There's something I'm missing here .
Airshifter , according to Ioan , interpretted his comments correctly .
He got it "exactly" right .

Somehow , Airshifter misses the hassle Ioan gets , for saying the same thing Ioan said .

Maybe those doing the hassling could say that Airshifter said it better , but that only excuses them for arguing the point up to that point .

And , rather than acknowledge the point , from either explanation , he is said to be a know-it-all , cynically .

I find it sad to see , especially because I understood Ioan just like Airshifter did in the first place .



This place sure is a hard place to communicate .

Let me put it to you this way Baggy: do you see Airshifter patronising anyone or sniping at them in this entire thread? and then posting icons to belittle them?

[ioan]

Where did I say that Rubens destroyed his tires?!
Please do provide a link to where I stated that. Because I certainly didn't say such.



Given how the tires fall apart like chewing gum after 8 laps or no wonder he couldn't go faster after 10 laps.

You didn't specifically say Rubens, I'll give you that.

Fair enough, as I never said that Rubens destroyed his tires by doing something wrong.


But it doesn't change the fact that if you are being held up by someone and can't save your tires, you are doing something wrong.


Perhaps it is you who does not understand how tires work. ALL TIRES, not just F1. If he would not have pushed them to the limit when they were cold they would NOT have been destroyed. Just because I don't post on the F1 boards very often, don't mistake that for me not watching, not caring, or not knowing what is going on

I don't work in F1, but I do work in a field VERY close to the concept at hand. And your boss should fire you for not having basic manners. Insulting someone you don't know for no reason is not the way the world works.

He just wasn't in a position to save his tires, as the tires weren't braking up because of him going to fast, they simply were to cold, didn't have enough grip and were sliding around to much and this destroyed them.

The only way for Rubens (and Button for that matter) to save the tires would have been to stand still.

I'm no F1 tire specialist either, but I do know a couple of things about how the F1 tires work, and how everything goes belly up because temperature is 5 degrees more or less than the optimal one.

[airshifter]

If you drop the whole idea of who was slow and who was not , maybe you will see my point .
You had someone who agreed with Ioan , and you gave them no notice , while at the same time attacked him for the same opinion .

Is Airshifter a know-nothing loser as well ?
After all , he said "exactly" what Ioan said .
Or perhaps I'm a know-nothing loser as well , because I agree with those two .


It took me a while to figure out Ioan myself, but I think one simple fact escapes many of those on these forums. Ioan has a very strong belief and a real passion for what he states, and he will defend that belief to the end.

Sometimes I don't agree with him either, but I accept that he really means what he says, and that we just have to agree to disagree.


I do see your point Bagwan, because when it really comes down to it, it's just a matter of how we phrased "you are wrong". Granted Ioan can be a bit caustic at times, but disagreement is disagreement no matter how it's worded.

I think we should make Valve Bounce and Ioan go on a retreat together, banning them from all contact with the F1 world, until they are best friends backing a single driver and team, as well as the same conspiracy theories and silly season predictions! :laugh:

[Bagwan]

It took me a while to figure out Ioan myself, but I think one simple fact escapes many of those on these forums. Ioan has a very strong belief and a real passion for what he states, and he will defend that belief to the end.

Sometimes I don't agree with him either, but I accept that he really means what he says, and that we just have to agree to disagree.


I do see your point Bagwan, because when it really comes down to it, it's just a matter of how we phrased "you are wrong". Granted Ioan can be a bit caustic at times, but disagreement is disagreement no matter how it's worded.

I think we should make Valve Bounce and Ioan go on a retreat together, banning them from all contact with the F1 world, until they are best friends backing a single driver and team, as well as the same conspiracy theories and silly season predictions! :laugh:

Ioan and I disagree on one thing that should be enough to make us mortal forum enemies . That is , that JV should be in a seat .
But , I've never had anything but a civilized discussion about it with him .

In fact , I've never had anything but a civilized discussion with Ioan , despite disagreeing with him many times .
We've agreed to disagree sometimes , but have always taken the time to make the other understand our position .

He and Valve don't seem to be able to do that .

I am not too sure of your desert island scenario , as I like to read what both post , and I'm not so sure both would survive the ordeal .

[ioan]

I am not too sure of your desert island scenario , as I like to read what both post , and I'm not so sure both would survive the ordeal .

Maybe we shall take pino with us?! He can even chose the desert island he prefers. ;)

[ioan]

Wow I wish we had all been this lucky :p

It's not about luck, it's about respect, mutual respect.

[ioan]

I wouldn't go that far ioan, afterall this is just words on a web page... We have absolutely no idea who we are really talking to now do we.. ;)

I think we can respect or not respect someone based on her/his behavior on a web page.

[Dave B]

I think we can respect or not respect someone based on her/his behavior on a web page.
If that's all we're basing it on then there are definately some people here for whom I have absolutely zero respect. However, I'll still treat them with respect.