Baltimore GP?

[nigelred5]

Well, This is the first time I've actually seen the rumours in print.

http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/bal-sp.indy07jul07,0,348301.story?FORM=ZZNR

I"ve posted my proposed maps and suggestions for years on the Champcar forum for a champcar GP in Baltimore and I think I've proposed Far better and racier layouts. with long wide straights, heavy braking zones, a nice long high speed right hander around harborplace, IMHO obligatory kiss of Little Italy, a snaking an up hill run across Lombard street. For god;s sake, keep it out of the parking lots at Camden yards for anything more than a paddock.

Maybe it will grow legs. Forget about most of the problems you hear about B-more, it would be an awesome location for a middle atlantic race and Baltimore knows how to throw a major league party at the Harbor after years of hosting major sporting events, festivals and even thigs like a Papal visit to Camden Yards.

Just have to do some MAJOR paving ;)

[Lee Roy]

Oh great. As a citizen of the Great State of Maryland I'll let my elected representatives know that I don't want to get stuck with the bill for another IRL/Open Wheel failure.

I'll be sure to let them know that they need to contact the elected representatives of other places to see if the promised millions of dollars of income ever came to fruition.

[methanolHuffer]

Is Al Unser Jr. a real paid consultant? No wonder things are in the condition that they are.

If Baltimore is willing to put up the improvements (at a big time cost) they deserve a race.

I have no idea what the fans would be like, though.

[Chris R]

It is doable - they have the services available - they have the stadiums and convention center to stage allied events and to use as garage/staging areas.... It would be very cool if they could come up with some events in the stadium itself - could they run a section of the track through with too much problem??

All that being said - I echo Lee Roy's concerns - the government is involved in too many things - we do not need them writing check for motor-sports events too... If private money can be found to make it work - woohoo - but these economic impact statements are generally speaking complete and utter BS and can be made to state nearly anything you want if crafted with a specific result in mind....

[nigelred5]

I agree, it should be privately funded, but it's apotentially a far better venue than many proposals, and we need a race in the middle atlantic period. I'd be jsut as happy though if it was at NJMSP.


No, there's no access to the field of either of the stadiums for anything like running cars through it, but if some thigs were re-located you might be able to incorporate the parking lots without it being totally a waste of time but I'd rather not see that.

[nigelred5]

I wish I knew. I'm trying to get in touch with Kieth Mills. I know him well enough to know how to reach him directly. If it's a name he doesn't know in the Baltimore sports world, it won't be so for long. He's primarily a stick and ball guy, but He'll do the digging.

Baltimore could certainly use a reason to pave a few streets downtown and tourism is usually reason #1 in Baltimore and they certainly know how t ohost sports events.

[Lousada]

Sounds like another Dodger Stadium event. Or that race in Turks and Caicos.

[call_me_andrew]

I've been looking at maps of east coast cities to see which ones could make good street courses. Baltimore was not one of those cities.

[NickFalzone]

I don't know how the population density would compare to something like Baltimore. Probably not favorably. But I think a street race at the Jersey shore in June or July would be very popular. Maybe Atlantic City or Point Pleasant area.

[call_me_andrew]

Yeah, but I'd like to think the series has enough class to stay out of New Jersey.

[Chris R]

Yeah, but I'd like to think the series has enough class to stay out of New Jersey.

Hey , some of us have to live here! ;)

NJMP would be a great destination for the Indycars - the track would need some safety related upgrades for the "big cars" but I think the track would be good for them.....

[nigelred5]

I've been looking at maps of east coast cities to see which ones could make good street courses. Baltimore was not one of those cities.

Well, What cities are you looking at? Baltimore and new England aren't exactly the same market and there are rumors of Loudon and a stadium course at Gillette staduim.
New York was tried by both ISC and Champcar- out. Philly, nope, Washington DC nope. Richmond, seems everyone hates the oval. Hmmm. no sense even thinking about the carolinas. Atlanta?? Tired of hearing how wonderful Savannah is. It's too small and too remote from a major population for sponsors. Florida's covered.
If they are going for an east coast race, IMHO it needs to be middle atlantic where the people are. I won't knock Jersey here even though I always do about everything else(got lots of family there), and especially not NJMSP. I hope to see the indycars theresome day, but it's not ready for them yet.

While I'm not a fan of the layout being shown for a couple reasons, Primarily the light rail tracks and the fact that one of hte streets proposed is critical for access to the city off of I- 95, I can see that they are minimizing the actual disruption to businesses and trying to incorporate the stadium lots for the pits. There are 4 VERY large hotels and the convention center and only a church and another private building inside of the course. All of which are alreadt serviced by large wide pedestrian bridges that cross the main streets used for the course. Everything else is outside of that layout. That course is less than a half mile off of the busiest interstate on the east coast with two exits that literally dump traffic directly in to the middle of the course, another two that dump you right into the Camden yards parking lots and I-83 just to the east of the course.
There is also MARC commuter rail line station that dead ends into the same location,and the light rail and subway lines that directly service the site with direct access from BWI airport and Penn Station. All of which are already very occustomed to handling fans attending Ravens and Orioles games on a weekly basis, as well as events like the Lacrosse championships, the Army navy game, the Whitbread/Volvo ocean race, etc.

There's literally more than 2000 hotel rooms and the convention center actually INSIDE of that very narrow layout and probably another 3K within three blocks. Probably 30 resturaunts and bars adjacent to the track and another 100 or so within 5 or so of the proposed layout. The science center, the aquarium, places like Hard Rock Cafe, Power plant live, Harborplace etc within 2 blocks. All of which are very occustomed to welcoming very large crowds. Most of the streets are minimum 3 lanes wide and a many are actually 4+. The inner Harbor is built for tourists.

Ill be honest, I'm not getting my hopes up, but it's a good, no a GREAT site for entertainment.

[SarahFan]

never happen downtown told me so

[nigelred5]

unfortunately, I'll probably have to agree, but I wouldn't even propose it for anywhere else.

[Chris R]

In terms of cities in the Mid-Atlantic (to me that is DC to NYC) - Baltimore is without question the best alternative for a race for all the reasons NigelRed5 cited. Places like Trenton and Wilmington are too small... Philly, DC and NYC are too big/not set up.. Baltimore is just right... lots of good viewing areas, changes in elevation etc.... and tons of services right there....

[Lee Roy]

Washington had a very nice ALMS race a couple of years ago. An artistic success, political and economic failure. Killed by NIMBYs after one year.

Acutally, it was a stupid place to build a track. There were people's homes across the street from track so close that I could stand in their front yard and hit the track with a rock.

Also, there are no businesses in that area. No restaurants, bars, or hotels . . . . it was a neighborhood.

It was a great time though. I was there for two of the three days. But I was glad when I could go home and get back to peace and quiet, away from 4 different classes of cars practicing (ALMS, Star Mazda, Trans Am, and Speed Touring/GT) and competing all day long over 3 days. The folks across the street didn't have a choice.

[Lee Roy]

It was at DC stadium, the same place the Redskins played at. Crowd noise there on a Sunday was louder than the cars.

I went to a lot of 'skins games at RFK and the Grand Prix. I have to differ with you there.


You forgot that ace driver, William Shattner, in the celebrity Panoz. :D :D

I actually got to see Capt. Kirk up close. Didn't recognize him soon enough to tell him to live long and prosper.


The folks across the street were offered weekend long stays in one of the nicer downtown hotels, all expenses including meals paid by the organizers.

Maybe they didn't want to leave home. And if it was like a lot of the other promises that the promoter made . . . . . .

[SarahFan]

robin mentioned a month or so ago that the krafts wanted a race around the patriots stadium....

schedules are always in flux.....but it sure wold be nice to see Fontana, Pheonix and/or michigan back on the schedule wouldn't it!?

[NickFalzone]

All 3 are great tracks, that can put on some good IRL racing. But the concern has been that, as of late, these places just do not generate much attendance for IndyCar races. MIS even had lots of empty bleachers for NASCAR this year. I don't think it's a great idea for IRL to go to tracks that have poor attendance, it's just a sad situation. Maybe if things start turning around for the series they can head to the bigger joints. I thought it was pretty weak at Watkins Glen when I saw the whole pre-race ceremony and driver intros going on in front of the frontstretch (i was opposite in pit terrace). The crowd they were playing to was sparse to say the least. I know part of that is the promoter's issue and it seemed like the Glen had better attendance in the cheap seats and camper areas, but the drivers have to be embarrassed to go out there and do their intros to like a crowd of maybe a couple hundred. I saw some of them waving to literally no one. Haven't been to the Glen before, and maybe that's how they do things, but I guarantee the NASCAR event will have grandstands filled to the brim and double the crowd energy.

[methanolHuffer]

robin mentioned a month or so ago that the krafts wanted a race around the patriots stadium....

schedules are always in flux.....but it sure wold be nice to see Fontana, Pheonix and/or michigan back on the schedule wouldn't it!?

It's hard for me to understand why those three weren't making the cut.
If they are less profitable than the tracks that are currently scheduled, or problems in the way of track ownership and IRL?

I remember PIR having issues with CART years before any talk of the split. And it was always packed in the years that I'd attended.

Pocono has a good thing up there and history to boot. But I guess the large markets don't go to the mountain any more, the mountain has to go to the large markets.

[nigelred5]

All 3 are great tracks, that can put on some good IRL racing. But the concern has been that, as of late, these places just do not generate much attendance for IndyCar races. MIS even had lots of empty bleachers for NASCAR this year. I don't think it's a great idea for IRL to go to tracks that have poor attendance, it's just a sad situation. Maybe if things start turning around for the series they can head to the bigger joints. I thought it was pretty weak at Watkins Glen when I saw the whole pre-race ceremony and driver intros going on in front of the frontstretch (i was opposite in pit terrace). The crowd they were playing to was sparse to say the least. I know part of that is the promoter's issue and it seemed like the Glen had better attendance in the cheap seats and camper areas, but the drivers have to be embarrassed to go out there and do their intros to like a crowd of maybe a couple hundred. I saw some of them waving to literally no one. Haven't been to the Glen before, and maybe that's how they do things, but I guarantee the NASCAR event will have grandstands filled to the brim and double the crowd energy.


Personally I think it's silly to have such large grandstands on the pit straight at such a beautiful race track.They are there 100% for NASCAR fans, the majority of which don't know how to watch any other way than sitting in a grandstand with their cooler between their legs and their racing radio headsets tuned into Junior or Gordon. They should have left them at Nazareth where they came from. The Glen is a track to walk. In all the years I went there I sat an entire race in the main grandstands once because it was raining so damn bad. would have spent the money they wasted relocating the grandstands and moved some guardrails back in some key locations.

[call_me_andrew]

I think Philadelphia could have a great street course. A Boston course would be pretty short, but possible. NYC could have a good course if there weren't so many damn trees in central park.

But Baltimore and DC are just a bunch of 90-degree turns.

[wedge]

Oh great. As a citizen of the Great State of Maryland I'll let my elected representatives know that I don't want to get stuck with the bill for another IRL/Open Wheel failure.

As much as I love The Wire, I can't help but agree.

[nigelred5]

there's definitely HUGE hurdles to make it happen. Trust me, as a state employee and MD taxpayer, my back and wallet have been hurting from the state's budget woes and agree, it needs to be mostly privately funded. I think the one thing that any city should be well aware of by now is the incredibly inflated nature of any projected economic impact statement, no matter what the event. Baltimore knows the impact tourism related events have, that's dang near about the only industry they have left.

If they have been working on this for three years, I imagine it's pretty clear and well known to the promoters how little the city of Baltimore has available to contribute financially. Of course there's a lot of Obama money around right now for paving streets and such and some are actually currently being repaved.

Using the stadium complex as they are proposing though, I'm not so sure about the Labor day weekend date they want. The Ravens and Orioles have first call on the complex and that is usually a 2-3 game weekend between baseball and football. One or the other is always in town that weekend and it hasn't been uncommon for both teams to play. Sure they can schedule around it, but that's a big IF they choose to cooperate.
I'd still rather see the course essentially shifted one block north to incorporate Lombard street and get away frrom conway street. Lombard actually snakes around and could create a nice esses and has good elevation changes leading up to charles plaza. If it was extended about 4-5 blocks east on Pratt to at least market place so there is a nice run down light and a high speed run through the big bend at light and pratt, no matter if it's run clockwise or anticlockwise. I don't like the hard right off of Pratt onto the curve at light street at Harbor place. It totally wastes what could very much be a signature corner of the track. A better course downtown could potentially be a very high speed road course.
I'm just afraid the hotels and more importantly the federal courthouse would probably object to being landlocked inside of the course.

It would definitely have to be handled like Monaco where the course is opened to traffic between sessions.

I can not for the life of me get the trail function to work on Google maps or google earth and I lost my saved maps somehow.

[nigelred5]

I think Philadelphia could have a great street course. A Boston course would be pretty short, but possible. NYC could have a good course if there weren't so many damn trees in central park.

But Baltimore and DC are just a bunch of 90-degree turns.

Actually, there are potentially three long sweepers, a couple moderately high speed right left right combos on Lombard and russell streets and some elevation changes that aren't really evident on the maps of the streets. You need to look at the close up satellite pictures of the streets or be familiar with the roads personally. Downtown Baltimore is also far from flat.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I was in the MD area making a stop on Thusday AM and saw the section outlining the story. Read it. Realize I have never been downtown Baltimore so I can make an accurate assessment of how ready or doable this is but it is nice to know someone wants a race.

That said, if Al Jr. designed that course, he should be told to quit. Hairpin corners on street courses are a bad cliche, and we don't need 2 on one course. I will leave it to you guys on the alternatives but I think Baltimore location wise is perfect.

as for the ALMS in Washington, a timing and scoring friend of mine said it was a shame that one died. The people doing most of the whining were NOT the people the organizers were putting up in hotels apparently but they had the right ears of the right people. Read into that what you will.....

[nigelred5]

The racing surface in the DC course was beautiful, but the course also was too many hairpins. IMHO, One is too many. I'm more concerned about the Light rail tracks, but a course is going to have to incorporate the stadium complex for a pit-paddock complex and anything that didn't cross the tracks would either interfere with streets around University of Maryland Medical Center, which will NOT happen, or it would have to enter areas that well, let's just say Baltimore would rather NOT showcase unless they were bulldozed for re-development first.
Now there's an idea....... it was a proposed location for a new horse racing complex at one time