Team owners accuse Formula One bosses in engine row [Archive]

CNR

6th July 2009, 00:57

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/5752102/Team-owners-accuse-Formula-One-bosses-in-engine-row.html

Three new teams with no background in F1 were accepted last month by the Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA) while famous motor sport names including Aston Martin and Lola were turned down.
The bosses of several of these unsuccessful entrants have now claimed that during the application process the FIA said it was a "mandatory" condition they had to buy engines from Northamptonshire-based Cosworth for their bid to be accepted.

This had previously not been a condition and several teams that had planned to use other engine manufacturers were rejected, with one believed to have spent £1m on its bid.
"We were told that if we wanted to take up the 2010 grid slot we would have to sign a three-year engine contract with Cosworth." one team boss claimed. Another commented in a letter that he "had a real possibility of obtaining a Renault, Mercedes or Ferrari engine. It was made very clear to me that it was considered a 'mandatory' condition from the powers that be that Cosworth was the engine supplier."

After 3 years out of f1 i wonder how this engine will go will it be updated for 2010
In 2006 Williams-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2006/2902.html) got 11 points and STR-Cosworth (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/2006/2896.html) got 1 point but they where running a restricted v10 engine.

Ghostwalker

6th July 2009, 10:06

cant say i'm surprised as Mosley want to have a spec series with solely CsW. engines.

ioan

6th July 2009, 12:51

Not surprised at all.
This is what dictatorship looks like, imposing people things they do not want!

Saint Devote

6th July 2009, 23:54

Not surprised at all.
This is what dictatorship looks like, imposing people things they do not want!

No business is a democracy. Formula 1 is not managed by consensus of the mob - and looking how the so-called free democracies have voted and moved over the past decades there is abosulutely nothing to recommend.

So get it out of your system.

Formula 1 is governed by the FIA. There is no dictatorship - people are free to go if they want. But the teams remain because the want to be f1 teams.

It is autocratic and that is the way it always has been and always will be.

Even FOTA declared openly that they have nothing against the structure - their argument is with the manner. And unless you have not noticed Mosely is to go at the end of his term.

So stop this ridiculous notion that f1 is a dictatorship - I wonder exactly how many seasons you have under your belt. I would wager that you are relatively new to f1 - and btw - you too are free to give f1 a miss if you find it so offensive.

ioan

7th July 2009, 00:37

No business is a democracy. Formula 1 is not managed by consensus of the mob - and looking how the so-called free democracies have voted and moved over the past decades there is abosulutely nothing to recommend.

So get it out of your system.

Formula 1 is governed by the FIA. There is no dictatorship - people are free to go if they want. But the teams remain because the want to be f1 teams.

It is autocratic and that is the way it always has been and always will be.

Even FOTA declared openly that they have nothing against the structure - their argument is with the manner. And unless you have not noticed Mosely is to go at the end of his term.

So stop this ridiculous notion that f1 is a dictatorship - I wonder exactly how many seasons you have under your belt. I would wager that you are relatively new to f1 - and btw - you too are free to give f1 a miss if you find it so offensive.

You're completely parallel with reality.
Why should Mosley impose a team which engine they buy with their own money?!
Isn't that dictatorship?!

And BTW most of the business on this world are done in a very liberal manner, meaning that everyone does what they please with their money.

Now, go back to Maxie and ask him to help you out a bit before the next post.

AJP

7th July 2009, 01:42

I'm going to have to go into therapy for this...

but,

I agree with ioan on this one..

Easy Drifter

7th July 2009, 02:10

I rarely agree with ioan on anything but I do this time.
But then I am a total newcomer to F1.
I mean I have only followed it since 1952.
I only worked for an F1 team in 1967.
And my only experience as an F1 race organizer was in 1976 and 1977.
I also have had to deal with BE when he was a team owner and Mad Max when he also was a team owner and manufacturer. (failed at both as well as a driver)
Believe it or not I would rather deal with the Demented Midget but I have no use for either.

I am evil Homer

7th July 2009, 09:21

It's BS....you can only join if you use this engine, even if your business plan (that the FIA needs to accept you in the first place!!!) was reliant on funding/development help from Mercedes or someone similar. Well done FIA...idiots.

7th July 2009, 09:43

OK, so who here would be stupid enough to accept an entry from a team that was financially and technically in debt to a FOTA member?

That would be the equivalent of handing your enemy more ammunition.

If a team did a deal with a FOTA member for engines, then they must be blind to the reality of the political situation and hopelessly niave to think that they would be granted an entry into the FIA F1 world championship in the current climate.

Only the truly niave would believe that the FIA would not favour non-FOTA teams.

In a perfect world it wouldn't be fair....but this world isn't perfect*

*Sorry if this upsets some members of the board, but while we are at it there is no Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy doesn't exist.

ioan

7th July 2009, 09:46

Probably an oversight, but I don't think "parallel" is the word you were looking for. Perhaps it was perpendicular?

Nah, it's parallel, like not having any common point with it.

ioan

7th July 2009, 09:47

OK, so who here would be stupid enough to accept an entry from a team that was financially and technically in debt to a FOTA member?

How can you be in debt to a FOTA team as long as you weren't even accepted in F1 and you are only supposed to buy their engine one year later?!

7th July 2009, 10:05

How can you be in debt to a FOTA team as long as you weren't even accepted in F1 and you are only supposed to buy their engine one year later?!

The "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" principle.

As the organiser of the championship, why even entertain the thought of giving a place to somebody whose loyalty is likely to be with those who currently oppose you?

Would you give an advantage away?

I am evil Homer

7th July 2009, 10:54

It now becomes pretty obvious why Prodrive never stood a chance.

ArrowsFA1

7th July 2009, 11:07

I'm glad the breakaway was averted but these teams were applying for a place right in the middle of a war. They were simply innocent by-standers that have evidently lost out in the long run.
Pawns in Max's chess game :p

ioan

7th July 2009, 11:10

The "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" principle.

As the organiser of the championship, why even entertain the thought of giving a place to somebody whose loyalty is likely to be with those who currently oppose you?

Would you give an advantage away?

But why would the organizer need to force people?
Do you believe they can gain someones loyalty by forcing them?! It looks to me that Max achieved exactly the opposite. The new teams will drop the Cossworths if it turns out that the engines are sub par, which is very likely now that their non limited advantage is gone, and they'll take the offer and support of a FOTA manufacturer who will make high performance engines + transmissions available for as low as the Cosworth engine costs.

Big Ben

7th July 2009, 11:25

The "You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours" principle.

As the organiser of the championship, why even entertain the thought of giving a place to somebody whose loyalty is likely to be with those who currently oppose you?

Would you give an advantage away?

And somehow this proves Max being right? I think Ioan's right on this one. This proves he's a dictator. He used personal interests as criteria of who gets in f1 and who doesn't. Off with his head!

Bagwan

7th July 2009, 12:57

ioan

7th July 2009, 14:10

Except the same direction.

I never said it's about parallel lines so it can be parallel in a different direction too!
I'd rather see reality as a plane and Saint Devote being on a line that it's contained in a plane parallel to reality! ;)

ioan

7th July 2009, 14:13

Since the new teams that were allowed all use Cosworth engines , it makes one wonder whether this element was mentioned in the call for new teams as a requirement for entry .
If this was necessary for qualifying to enter , then none of the FOTA teams qualify to be in F1 .

It was apparently a requirement only for the new teams and it was probably not written anywhere but verbal pressure was put on the new entrants.

markabilly

7th July 2009, 14:17

Except the same direction.

??
Ioan was talking about the parallel universe theories of phyicists like Everett, and Hawkins......oh well, nevermind :rolleyes:

Bagwan

7th July 2009, 15:19

It was apparently a requirement only for the new teams and it was probably not written anywhere but verbal pressure was put on the new entrants.

It seems so .

If this is all true , then it seems that it wasn't "pressure" at all , since only some of the teams seem to have gotten the message .
Nobody spends gobs , knowing that they won't get to the grid .
It , therefore , stands to reason , that only some were told that only Cosworth entries would be admitted .

How can the FIA justify this ?

I am evil Homer

7th July 2009, 15:23

The way they usually do "we're the FIA, do as we say"

ioan

7th July 2009, 18:22

The way they usually do "we're the FIA, do as we say"

Yep. Looks like this is their corporate line! ;)

7th July 2009, 18:24

And somehow this proves Max being right?

Nope, never said that.

Just pointed out that the FIA were never going to give a place to a FOTA-linked or FOTA-supported team.

ioan

7th July 2009, 18:26

Nope, never said that.

Just pointed out that the FIA were never going to give a place to a FOTA-linked or FOTA-supported team.

Looks like dictatorship back in the communist times. You could only aspire to a better job and all if you were a member of the communist party. :s

7th July 2009, 18:27

How can the FIA justify this ?

Because it's war.

Doesn't make it right, just reality.

Bagwan

8th July 2009, 00:40

Because it's war.

Doesn't make it right, just reality.

It sounds like dirty pool , and I don't think that those who got excluded will be well pleased .
I do understand the logic , but I think it will be explained to be less controversial than an act of war .

The vetting proceedure must have been open until the last moment , when FOTA made the mass entry . As this entry was conditional , it could be , perhaps , seen to endanger as well , any of the new entries who might use those manufacturers' engines .

The fact is , though , that if those who chose Cosworth were warned of the possibility , then it's likely to fall into the lawyer's hands again .

It's a pretty complicated game .
It has Max , pretty obviously stacking the deck , trying his hardest at looking altogether like the angel we can't do without .
We have the FOTA group , theatening to take the ball home if they can't play with the same expensive net the fans like .
And , we have Bernie , floating around the periphery , shouting offensive comments that curiously bring back bad memories for his whip-wielding friend .

There's never a dull moment .

airshifter

8th July 2009, 01:27

truefan72

8th July 2009, 02:14

It's stuff like this that makes me wish even more that the FIA never caved in and the breakaway series became a reality. On one hand would have been the FOTA series, with bigger budgets, new ideas, and the development of major companies.

On the other hand would have been Formula Max, the new lowly spec car series! :laugh:

I'm right there with you!

I do agree with Ioan on this matter completely and St. devote comes across as some Mad Max/BE loving FIA fanatic, apologist or simply a close realtive to either one of them. There is no other way to explain his constant positive rationalizing of all of the crazy duo's callous moves.

Forcing teams to use cosworth as a mandate to enter the sport is borderline criminal and strong arm tactics with biased results should be reviewed by a court of law for corporate blackmail and antitrust infringement.

Hondo

8th July 2009, 03:27

I am under the impression that the FIA application entry form had to show both the Team name\constructor and the engine supplier to be a valid entry. If the engine portion was not filled in properly, I can understand the rejection. But if using Cosworth was in fact a requirement for new applicants, the FIA should have made that clear before the new teams wasted all that time and money.

Valve Bounce

8th July 2009, 06:19

No business is a democracy. Formula 1 is not managed by consensus of the mob - and looking how the so-called free democracies have voted and moved over the past decades there is abosulutely nothing to recommend.

So get it out of your system.

Formula 1 is governed by the FIA. There is no dictatorship - people are free to go if they want. But the teams remain because the want to be f1 teams.

It is autocratic and that is the way it always has been and always will be.

Even FOTA declared openly that they have nothing against the structure - their argument is with the manner. And unless you have not noticed Mosely is to go at the end of his term.

So stop this ridiculous notion that f1 is a dictatorship - I wonder exactly how many seasons you have under your belt. I would wager that you are relatively new to f1 - and btw - you too are free to give f1 a miss if you find it so offensive.

You know something, and this is just an observation and not a criticism, for someone who has only just joined this forum and has only had 29 posts, you seem to have a helluva lot to say on how we others here in this forum should think.

This leaves me to wonder whether you were kicked out of another forum, or maybe have re-registered here under a different nickname.

We do reserve the right here, in this forum, to express our views and we do encourage those who have only recently taken an interest in F1 to express their views such as F1 is a dictatorship the way it is run by Max - I certainly agree with this sentiment.