You know what? [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Gluaistean

5th July 2009, 15:07

Observation and opinion is fine. What is wrong with pointing out the idiotic things we see as fans that the people that run the series don't. Dr Krogshoj mentioned falling asleep. I had mine on DVR and even then the commercials were better.

When you read a press conference from the leaders of the IRL and all the points they make about the series doing well yada yada yada and then they mention Danica Patrick and hoping she will stay but will likely leave for NASCAR it's a sad state of affairs. They mention one driver. ONE!!!

Dixon,Franchitti, Castro-Neves, Wilson not a peep. Patrick is whom they have bet the ship on. On that I will whine and moan because of the sorry state of management. They screwed up CART and started a mickey mouse series and now that they are in trouble they hang their hat on sex appeal. Baloney.

I'll watch for Wilson, Power, Tracy, Dale Coyne,Rahal and KVT. Nothing else.

Chaparral66

5th July 2009, 16:24

Suit yourself if you want to take an extended sabbtical, DTD. But in complaining that no one says anything positive about the IRL, you must have forgotten to say something positive yourself. That's understandable, not a whole lot to say. But if we've overlooked anything that might be considered a positive for Indy Car, please say what that is. I certainly would like to know if I've missed something. That's what these forums are for, an exchange of ideas. No is going to agree all the time.

garyshell

6th July 2009, 05:11

This is silly. An IRL fan forum and no one ever has anything good to say about the series. Ever.

If the dislike of the series is so high, the hatred of TG so great, if everything that the IRL says, does and is is such a depressing strain on your minds why in the world do most you even come here? Christ almight you guys can be depressing. : )

I'm taking a break from the forum till next May.

Enjoy the races.

Aw, poor little downtowndeco, fishing for sympathy because no one wants to believe his revisionist hostory. Go ahead... pull a Sarah Palin, frankly Scarlett...

Gary

Mark in Oshawa

6th July 2009, 07:35

Deco, you mean you just realized most of us have a point and there is nothing positive? Heck, that is wrong. I am positive the ratings suck because people gave up on this sport a long time ago because of ABC's love affair with Patrick, the mismanaged mess that TG made of the IRL in the first decade, and the fact there was the creation of it in the first place.

I am POSITIVE that this dream of an all oval IRL is going down the toilet after that disgrace in Richmond, and I am positive Brian Barhart will be canned at some point for not having a clue how to let the drivers race.

I am POSITIVE OW racing will survive in some form...just in a form you may not like Deco.

Cya in May.

I find the business of sport, and racing and what is happening interesting, and I love the sport too much to just stand by and pretend nothing is wrong.

I remember a fella named "Real McCoy" who used to spin the company line for the IRL when there was two OW forums. He got tired of the "negativity" too...because he realized he was living a lie......

I wanted the merger to go somewhere and I wanted Tony to prove me wrong...but alas, I am postive he is gone and I am positive that now the real work will begin...

methanolHuffer

6th July 2009, 16:23

I really don't see anything wrong with criticizing the things we enjoy. If for nothing else, to demand better for ourselves.

Downtowndeco may get frustrated by the opinions of others and resist obvious facts that are against his or her convictions. It's really kind of arrogant, but amusing at the same time since there is nothing really at stake.

This is only AOWR, by the way. If people were to criticize their OWN favorite religion, political party, ethnic culture, instead of finding flaws everywhere else, things might actually progress forward.

If the indy 500 decided that it would exhibit v-twin motorcycles for the memorial day classic, it really wouldn't make me less disappointed in the way that AOWR has faded in interest.

Marbles

6th July 2009, 17:21

The IRL hasn't gotten anywhere in a decade and a half. Why would it go anywhere now?

Marbles

6th July 2009, 18:55

Well, it just had a very nice, pretty competitive, race at Watkins Glen. That race wasn't a crash fest and (except for the announcers) the TV production was pretty good.

I'm not saying that even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while. The IRL has had some great races over the years and I'm sure they even got the TV end right once ina while. I was speaking about the series as a whole.

It's not stuggling to field 16 cars as one extinct series did.

I'm not sure of the reason for the reference to CC but it is an extinct series that seemed to still have more popularity universally, albeit not enough to keep it afloat, than the IRL.

I'd say there is some up side in the future. Particularly with some potential new leadership.

New leadership is hugely important.

Chaparral66

6th July 2009, 22:50

Well, it just had a very nice, pretty competitive, race at Watkins Glen. That race wasn't a crash fest and (except for the announcers) the TV production was pretty good. Even spent time on some racing a little farther back in the pack. It's not stuggling to field 16 cars as one extinct series did. I'd say there is some up side in the future. Particularly with some potential new leadership.

This was an entertaining race. It reminds me of what OWR can be: a good competitive race on a classic course with fights for position and a real dark horse getting to go to victory lane. Now imagine how good that race could have been with the Panoz and an updated Lola chassis, using Honda and Ford/Cosworth engines...

grungex

6th July 2009, 23:06

Aw, poor little downtowndeco, fishing for sympathy because no one wants to believe his revisionist hostory. Go ahead... pull a Sarah Palin, frankly Scarlett...

Gary

:s mokin:

Chaparral66

6th July 2009, 23:12

nigelred5

7th July 2009, 04:16

Well to be honest, this forum has always been pretty hostile towards the IRL. It really never had many pro-IRL posters,and has always been where the pro-cart/ccws folks came to stir the pot. Now that CC and it's associated forum are gone, guess it really hasn't changed much.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 04:20

Sarah Palin...? You mean, "Caribou Barbie"?
This asinine remark has what to do with open wheel racing?

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 04:23

This is silly. An IRL fan forum and no one ever has anything good to say about the series. Ever.

If the dislike of the series is so high, the hatred of TG so great, if everything that the IRL says, does and is is such a depressing strain on your minds why in the world do most you even come here? Christ almight you guys can be depressing. : )

I'm taking a break from the forum till next May.

Enjoy the races.
The creator of the series made himself look like a lying hypocrite to his own rhetoric, so what about the series is good?
Remarks about individual races are just that, unique to the race but have little to nothing to do with the machinations of how the series is run.

garyshell

7th July 2009, 04:25

Aw, poor little downtowndeco, fishing for sympathy because no one wants to believe his revisionist hostory. Go ahead... pull a Sarah Palin, frankly Scarlett...

Gary

Sarah Palin...? You mean, "Caribou Barbie"?

This asinine remark has what to do with open wheel racing?

It has to do with my remark about downtowndeco running away when things didn't go his way.

Gary

Chaparral66

7th July 2009, 07:23

It has to do with my remark about downtowndeco running away when things didn't go his way.

Gary

'Nuff said. :D

chuck34

7th July 2009, 13:18

The creator of the series made himself look like a lying hypocrite to his own rhetoric, so what about the series is good?
Remarks about individual races are just that, unique to the race but have little to nothing to do with the machinations of how the series is run.

I'm sorry, but that makes no sence what-so-ever. What is the series if not a string of individual races? If we have 75-80% good/entertaining races, but you don't agree with how the series is run (for whatever reason), it is not a good series?

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 17:54

I'm sorry, but that makes no sence what-so-ever. What is the series if not a string of individual races? If we have 75-80% good/entertaining races, but you don't agree with how the series is run (for whatever reason), it is not a good series?
A series is about the rules that govern the series; races simply are run by those rules.
The rules (therefore series) are abysmal.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 17:58

It has to do with my remark about downtowndeco running away when things didn't go his way.

Gary

"Sarah Palin...? You mean, "Caribou Barbie"?"-- Deco did not mention this, nor is this in ay way related to open wheel racing.
To put it in this thread, is pointless at best and asinine at face value.

chuck34

7th July 2009, 17:59

A series is about the rules that govern the series; races simply are run by those rules.
The rules (therefore series) are abysmal.

But if the rules create 75-80% good racing, how can the series be bad? The series is about the racing, right?

Note that I am not saying this year's IRL has had 75-80% good races. But I would say that last year was close to that. I don't know the exact reasons for that. It is what it is.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 18:04

But if the rules create 75-80% good racing, how can the series be bad? The series is about the racing, right?

Note that I am not saying this year's IRL has had 75-80% good races. But I would say that last year was close to that. I don't know the exact reasons for that. It is what it is.
Good racing?-- By what standards?

Good racing brings in crowds, press coverage, and manufacturers who want to be part of t he show, that is NOT happening.

The Indianapolis 500 still has PART of that from its storied history but Indy is not a series.

By those standards the racing is not good.

garyshell

7th July 2009, 18:44

"Sarah Palin...? You mean, "Caribou Barbie"?"-- Deco did not mention this, nor is this in ay way related to open wheel racing.
To put it in this thread, is pointless at best and asinine at face value.

Oh give it a rest already. I didn't say anything about Caribou Barbie. All I did was draw a parallel between what downtowndeco did and a similar event that had just happened in the news that day. Both of them cut and ran when things didn't go their way. If you don't see the parallel in that, fine. What is ridiculous is your assertion that we should only draw paralells here to things related to open wheel racing.

If your political sensibilities were offended, as I said to downtowndeco, frankly Scarlett...

Gary

chuck34

7th July 2009, 19:01

Good racing?-- By what standards?

Good racing brings in crowds, press coverage, and manufacturers who want to be part of t he show, that is NOT happening.

The Indianapolis 500 still has PART of that from its storied history but Indy is not a series.

By those standards the racing is not good.

I'm talking about the race itself. Crowd size and the rest are seperate issues. If the racing on track is closely faught, lots of passing, drama, wheel to wheel action. That is what I would call good racing. Good racing exists outside of crowd size or press coverage.

chuck34

7th July 2009, 19:11

Good racing?-- By what standards?

Good racing brings in crowds, press coverage, and manufacturers who want to be part of t he show, that is NOT happening.

The Indianapolis 500 still has PART of that from its storied history but Indy is not a series.

By those standards the racing is not good.

Let's look at this a bit different. What drives big crowds? What drives press coverage? What drives mnufacurers interest?

I think it pretty much goes in this order. The crowds come to see the on track action. The press comes to cover the racing that all these people are watching. Then the manufacurers come to advertise to the people and the press that are watching the racing.

You don't get the people, the press, or manufacturers interested in a set of rules.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 19:31

Let's look at this a bit different. What drives big crowds? What drives press coverage? What drives mnufacurers interest?

I think it pretty much goes in this order. The crowds come to see the on track action. The press comes to cover the racing that all these people are watching. Then the manufacurers come to advertise to the people and the press that are watching the racing.

You don't get the people, the press, or manufacturers interested in a set of rules.
The manufacturers come to prove their product, the press covers the manufactures that have products that are sold to the public, the people come to see how good the product they buy is on the track.

Petroleum wars, tire wars, automobile wars-------
Removal of this system is one reason automotive products still put huge budgets in drag racing, where what goes on on the track sells products and abandoned non sprint open wheel (and road) racing.

MOST-MOST races during the hay-days of racing were run-aways or usually distance between most cars in double digits in seconds.

People showed up country wide by the hundreds of thousands WITHOUT REGARD TO how close the race was. THAT had NOTHING to do with whether or not they came back.
Buick, Chevy, Ford, Honda, Nissan, Porsche, Toyota did not race to put on a close race, they came to sell their products to the people paying attention ot what ever series they were in.

Ford and Mopar made engines just for sprint cars not because of close racing; it was because the non-spec. rules allowed them to do so with a chance of producing a product that could win, or at least be mod. till it did win.

The IRL is nothing more than glorified formula Ford or Super Vee both of which had/have "good racing" but few really give a damn because except for the racers it is BORING SAMENESS.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 19:36

Oh give it a rest already. I didn't say anything about Caribou Barbie. All I did was draw a parallel between what downtowndeco did and a similar event that had just happened in the news that day. Both of them cut and ran when things didn't go their way. If you don't see the parallel in that, fine. What is ridiculous is your assertion that we should only draw paralells here to things related to open wheel racing.

If your political sensibilities were offended, as I said to downtowndeco, frankly Scarlett...

Gary
There was no analogy and it does not belong, if you want to defend it SOOOO badly start a thread about it.

chuck34

7th July 2009, 19:45

*snip*

That is one way to go. And historically that may have been the way things went in different areas. And it is what I would LIKE to see again. The reality, sadly, is quite different now.

The model now appears to be NASCAR and, at least to some extent, Grand-Am. Neither one have any technical reason for people to be involved because everything is regulated to death. There is no new technological ground to be broken (for a myrid of reasons). But fans show up by the millions to watch NASCAR, even with the God-aweful COT. And more and more fans are showing up and tuning into Grand-Am. It may not be what you, or I, would necessarily like, but that is the reality of today.

Unless someone is really going to step up to the plate with their big boy pants on, and allow some REAL innovation in racing again (with the susequent large increase in speeds, and decrease in safety), that old model is dead. All we are left with is hoping for some type of close, exciting, al-be-it contrived racing, with hopefully some (however small) area of technical "gray area". And hopefully in the future the gray area will be expanded a bit.

garyshell

7th July 2009, 19:54

The manufacturers come to prove their product, the press covers the manufactures that have products that are sold to the public, the people come to see how good the product they buy is on the track.

In some series that might be true. But I remember the Ford badged Cosworth engines, the Mercedes badged Ilmor engines, the COT in NASCAR etc.

Yes their are pockets where the cars really are the products people might buy, most notably the GT classes in sports car racing, but outside of that, the idea of race on Sunday, sell on Monday is a relic of the distant past.

Gary

garyshell

7th July 2009, 19:58

There was no analogy and it does not belong, if you want to defend it SOOOO badly start a thread about it.

Oh, I see. Because YOU think there is no analogy, then there is no analogy.

Seems like other folks here saw the analogy and got it. If you are SOOOO offended by it, go start a thread about why it was incorreect.

Gary

indycool

7th July 2009, 20:25

Blancvino

7th July 2009, 21:05

Some are forgetting that the table has been set differently for a VERY short time. We are 1 1/2 years into being one series again after 12 years of fussin' and feudin' and spendin'. There are no magic wands. TG not being in charge is not a magic wand, nor the opposite of one. It will take time and money to solidify the series. It isn't going to happen at Toronto or the race after that or the SEASON after that. It is going to happen in very small, almost unnoticeable steps........singles, not homers.

IC, you know I always have found you level headed. And I see you as someone who is reasonable. I respectfully disagree with often but still respect your views. I must say WE are NOT one series as in united, there happens to be ONE series left after a bitter and divisive war. The problem is not likely to get better with accountants running the show. So, to me, the prospects are rather grim for the future.

It might be better to fold up the tent and start fresh. If the IRL was to announce that 2011 would be it's last year of operation there would be time for a new series to be developed out of the ashes. I think there needs to be new cars, engines, and most of all, leadership.

I think there is so much bad blood in American open wheel racing now that to "patch" the IRL into an updated series is a complete waste of time and money.

Rex Monaco

7th July 2009, 21:10

This asinine remark has what to do with open wheel racing?

About as much as hope and change...

Rex Monaco

7th July 2009, 21:15

Because YOU think there is no analogy, then there is no analogy.

Ok, here's an analogy for you. TG made a power grab by throwing other peoples money around. He was replaced by people who were tired of funding his deficit spending. And now he's gone.

DanicaFan

7th July 2009, 21:16

I do agree with downtowndeco in the fact that I too am sick of all the negativity towards the IRL. I expressed this is another thread.

I love the IRL. Yes, I would change a few things but that doesnt mean I like the series any less. Being around the cars all the time, hanging out in the garages, paddocks, pits, is simply amazing. The side-by-side racing is incredible and if it doesnt get you excited, you may want to check and see if you have a pulse.

Like I said, they are starting to listen to the fans and drivers and will be making changes.

If you dont like the IRL or dont have anything good to say about it, dont post about it all the time. Dont you remember the saying... If you dont have anything good to say, dont say it ? ;)

This is by no means a personal attack against anyone but if someone doesnt like something so much and only has negative things to say, why are they watching it ? :confused:

If you dont like it,there are plenty of other sports to watch or plenty of other stuff on TV to occupy your time.

TURN3

7th July 2009, 22:35

The side-by-side racing is incredible and if it doesnt get you excited, you may want to check and see if you have a pulse.

Like I said, they are starting to listen to the fans and drivers and will be making changes.

What side by side racing have you been watching this year and most of last? Just curious, but seriously?

Isn't it an oxymoron that you call for people to not be negative but yet state that the series is now listening to fans & drivers? There is something constructive that comes out of people stating what is wrong. If everybody just kept quiet and didn't speak up, we'd be looking at a crappy series. Negativety to be negative isn't good but if it does need to be heard or nothing would change...to paraphrase yourself.

indycool

7th July 2009, 23:21

Blancvino, I always have found your posts to be insightful and I, too, respect your viewpoints, even when we disagree.

We all know that money spoils everything -- either the lack of it or an overabundance of it.

As I posted before, NASCAR grew by leaving the bean counters at home and Bill Gazaway going on the road to run the show. Now, that was a different time and a different situation, so there's no real reason to believe it could happen here.

As for scrapping things and starting a new series, I can't see anybody coming forward to do it and I can't see the race teams blowing their cash to do it. TG's role in bringing the two series together HAD to cost a lot of money to get the CC teams Dallaras and engines to compete.

We're a little less than a week from the management reorganization. Although there doesn't seem to be anyone to finger-point at for the goods and the bads with four leaders at IMS and IRL, I think I'd take those four over the Bob Reifs, Phil Lengyels, Andrew Craigs, Chris Pooks, etc., who have founf their way to pots of gold at the expense of our sport. Will these guys join them or go forward? Time will tell.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 23:31

That is one way to go. And historically that may have been the way things went in different areas. And it is what I would LIKE to see again. The reality, sadly, is quite different now.

The model now appears to be NASCAR and, at least to some extent, Grand-Am. Neither one have any technical reason for people to be involved because everything is regulated to death. There is no new technological ground to be broken (for a myrid of reasons). But fans show up by the millions to watch NASCAR, even with the God-aweful COT. And more and more fans are showing up and tuning into Grand-Am. It may not be what you, or I, would necessarily like, but that is the reality of today.

Unless someone is really going to step up to the plate with their big boy pants on, and allow some REAL innovation in racing again (with the susequent large increase in speeds, and decrease in safety), that old model is dead. All we are left with is hoping for some type of close, exciting, al-be-it contrived racing, with hopefully some (however small) area of technical "gray area". And hopefully in the future the gray area will be expanded a bit.

NASCAR has Chevy, Dodge, Ford and Toryota spending large amount of money develping engine that are limited in difference by the rules, but are different and are the heart of NASCAR.

Ford this year finally is bringing out NASCAR engine that is not based on its street small block.
The last make to produce a race special for NASCAR, which means having a dedicated race engine must be important enough for Ford that they spent the money to do so.
If the IRL had that appeal to Detroit (and Japan or Europe) it would not be ridiculed as a spec. series that survives because of Indy.

The France boy was going to bring in a generic engine to go with his generic cars but Detroit told him, you do we leave.
Take the makes of cars, even if reduced to engines, out of NASCAR, and it would mimic what happened to CART.
The Daytona 500 does not have the storied history of the Indianapolis 500.

As far as Grand-Am goes, beyond the 24hrs. from what I have been told by people who go to the races, and liked them, most play before an empty house.

The only thing supporting it is the same thing that started it, France money.

Bob Riebe

7th July 2009, 23:44

IC, you know I always have found you level headed. And I see you as someone who is reasonable. I respectfully disagree with often but still respect your views. I must say WE are NOT one series as in united, there happens to be ONE series left after a bitter and divisive war. The problem is not likely to get better with accountants running the show. So, to me, the prospects are rather grim for the future.

It might be better to fold up the tent and start fresh. If the IRL was to announce that 2011 would be it's last year of operation there would be time for a new series to be developed out of the ashes. I think there needs to be new cars, engines, and most of all, leadership.

I think there is so much bad blood in American open wheel racing now that to "patch" the IRL into an updated series is a complete waste of time and money.

Let the IRL die after 2010.
Dedicate work, starting today, to make the anniversary race extra-extra-ordinary.
Start with the 2011 Indy being a VERY-VERY big purse race, running quasi- formula libre cars.
After the race the trim the worst of the quasi-libre rules the best of the remaining rules will be used to form a new formula for a new series. Call it Formula Brickyard of the Brickyard Racing Championship.

Bob Riebe

8th July 2009, 00:01

Oh, I see. Because YOU think there is no analogy, then there is no analogy.

Seems like other folks here saw the analogy and got it. If you are SOOOO offended by it, go start a thread about why it was incorreect.

Gary
Washington politics as related to IRL problems and T. Georges resignation, relation ZERO.

This is the IndyCar forum, not Washington lies and damned lies forum, end of discussion.
Bob
PS--If you want to bring Wash. into what is wrong with the IMSA, that might work.
Pres. Obama took over two firms involved their.

grungex

8th July 2009, 00:08

Why do I think that if the analogy mentioned Obama instead of Caribou Barbie you wouldn't be having such a hissy fit?

The instant classic

8th July 2009, 02:22

Let me put on my Moderator hat for a moment, given recent developments.

This forum has always been pretty open to opposing points of view - so long as they were expressed reasonably politely. Lately, there seems to be a resurgence of some long held anti IRL/TG venom. TG is (well, was) a public figure and as such is open to a little more open censure than others. The IRL is what it is, as was CART/CC. There is plenty of room for improvement all across the board in AOW.

Those who post here with an interest in the improvement of AOW, current warts and all, are welcome to continue to do so.

Those whose only purpose is to trash the IRL, TG, or both would be best served by doing so elsewhere. This is, after all, the IndyCar board and a little respect for those who are fans and hope for the best would be appreciated.
i agree, with you

the day TG resigned i got my cheap laugh for the day and moved on, i still don't know why everyone still trash him now, i may not like TG but im starting to feel sorry for the guy.

for trashing the IRL ever since TG resigned i have been pretty quiet on the indycar forums, (i stay more on the nascar forum now) cuz i don't know where the IRL is going? i can't say if the IRL will be around next year or not?
but thats why i'm staying quiet i don't want my last memories of indycar to be angry bitter ones, if they leave

Bob Riebe

8th July 2009, 03:21

Why do I think that if the analogy mentioned Obama instead of Caribou Barbie you wouldn't be having such a hissy fit?
I do not know or care what you think, but what ever it is it has nothing to do with the Indy cars. or Tony George.

garyshell

8th July 2009, 06:53

Washington politics as related to IRL problems and T. Georges resignation, relation ZERO.

Uh, you might want to go back and re-read my posts. I never compared a Washington politician to King George. I compared an Alaskan politician's cut and run actions to the very same sort of actions by a certain forum member here.

Gary

Chaparral66

8th July 2009, 07:49

Starter, if you will allow me some Perry Mason slack here, let me just touch upon the Caribou Barbie remark. As Gary had made a comparison between the actions of Tony George and Sarah Palin, I just enhanced it by making a joke. I had heard the remark earlier and thought it was laugh out loud funny, and perefectly appropriate given the the once and former Governor of Alaska is now a very public figure by her own pursuit of that stature. Thus, people at this level have to expect humorous remarks made about them from time to time, to enhance points being on the issues we discuss.

My other ADD to this thread, albeit sarcastic, (don't see it anymore) was to point out, when someone complained about politics being thrown in to the debate, was that politics and racing go hand in hand, as politics does with every sport. There's no getting away from it. This is why the open wheel war initiated furious debate over its 14 year course; and now that TG has been forced out, it still will because of the intrigue that got his ouster started.

Now having said all that, here's thought or two to improve Indy Car racing in the wake of Our Good Friend Tony George's departure:

1) Get rid of the ugly Dallaras and bring the Panoz and an updated Lola chassis and let them duke it out. Now. Dallara can stay in of they adapt to those cars specs.

2) Make sure these chassis go back to turbo engines, and make it the new 2.4 formula that everyone agreed to (including Mercedes-Benz) prior to the collapse happening. Re-approach Ford, Toyota, Merecedes, and even Porsche-Audi and BMW look at the series, so Honda will be deliriously happy to have competition. All turbo engines from previous CART/Champ Car designs can be updated, while the new guys take the specs and create Turbo engines of their own. This is somewhat simliar to an ALMS approach, but the fans will love it.

3) Let's go back to classic courses like Laguna Seca, Cleveland, Michigan, Mid-Ohio, and Fontana. On the ovals, work out a consistent weekend deal with the NASCAR Camping World Truck Series, with ALMS or Grand AM on the roadcourses, and aggressively promote the event, even reaching out to corporations with some incentive seating. Anything to revive some tradition.

4) No more managment by owner committee. Those days are over. Put someone with respect, contacts and experience in complete charge. Sounds like Tony Cotman.

5) Put the timing of the Indy 500 back to a point where drivers can do a twofer with this race and the Coca-Cola 600, if they are up to it. Having this happen drove up interests in both races, but right now, Indy could benefit even more by it, since they are having a hard time keeping their event sold out.

6)Encourage Goodyear to update their technolgy in R&D and get them back in the series. It was always fun to see these rivals, Goodyear and Firestone, go at it. The problem with what we have now, a spec series, is that there is no suspense anymore. We all know Penske and Ganassi and to a certain extent Andretti/Green have over allmost everyone. Same motors, same tires, same body, etc. etc. There is very little room for any unknown factor to come into play. Wilson's win at WatkinsGlen was a real Cinderella story that endeared itself to everyone. Back in the day, that would happen once in a while. Today, yikes...

SarahFan

8th July 2009, 09:02

so now the entire forum is on a self imposed 'ignore'.... allegedly

maybe with downtown gone every thread wont turn into a 'but Cart went bankrupt' and we can have some honest open discussion about the state of the sport

Blancvino

8th July 2009, 13:13

Let me put on my Moderator hat for a moment, given recent developments.

This forum has always been pretty open to opposing points of view - so long as they were expressed reasonably politely. Lately, there seems to be a resurgence of some long held anti IRL/TG venom. TG is (well, was) a public figure and as such is open to a little more open censure than others. The IRL is what it is, as was CART/CC. There is plenty of room for improvement all across the board in AOW.

Those who post here with an interest in the improvement of AOW, current warts and all, are welcome to continue to do so.

Those whose only purpose is to trash the IRL, TG, or both would be best served by doing so elsewhere. This is, after all, the IndyCar board and a little respect for those who are fans and hope for the best would be appreciated.

No excuses, I'm guilty as charged.

I think the ouster of TG opened the Pandora's box of raw nerves are regarding the last 15 years.

chuck34

8th July 2009, 13:46

NASCAR has Chevy, Dodge, Ford and Toryota spending large amount of money develping engine that are limited in difference by the rules, but are different and are the heart of NASCAR.

Ford this year finally is bringing out NASCAR engine that is not based on its street small block.
The last make to produce a race special for NASCAR, which means having a dedicated race engine must be important enough for Ford that they spent the money to do so.
If the IRL had that appeal to Detroit (and Japan or Europe) it would not be ridiculed as a spec. series that survives because of Indy.

The France boy was going to bring in a generic engine to go with his generic cars but Detroit told him, you do we leave.
Take the makes of cars, even if reduced to engines, out of NASCAR, and it would mimic what happened to CART.
The Daytona 500 does not have the storied history of the Indianapolis 500.

As far as Grand-Am goes, beyond the 24hrs. from what I have been told by people who go to the races, and liked them, most play before an empty house.

The only thing supporting it is the same thing that started it, France money.

I have no idea why the manufacturers compete in NASCAR. I'm sure they have their reasons, probably something along the lines of teaching their engineers to think. NASCAR has no technical relevence to road cars. When was the last time you saw a carborated V-8 with 2 valves per cylinder? If one of them actually did find some magic trick that could pull an extra 20 Hp out of the engine, NASCAR would imediatly outlaw it. So what technical reason is there to be there? But obviously they do have their reasons, and I don't be-grudge them. I just don't think those same reasons will ever apply to IndyCar racing, at least not in the near future.

As far as Grand-Am, yeah they are playing to empty houses, but they are growning. When you start from nothing, anything is a big increase. Plus I hear their ratings are up about 25-30% over last year. The IRL could learn a lot. It's not the France family money supporting Grand-Am (from what I understand at least), they make money off the competitors, suppliers, and sponsors. Gate recepts are just gravy. Again, the IRL could learn something.

nigelred5

8th July 2009, 14:52

As far as Grand-Am goes, beyond the 24hrs. from what I have been told by people who go to the races, and liked them, most play before an empty house.

The only thing supporting it is the same thing that started it, France money.

I'd agree to an extent, but they had what looked like a good crowd at Mid ohio and for a day that was a total deluge, the crowd at New Jersey was impressive for a series that allegedly doesn't draw flies. Don't care for the cars much, but the racing is good stuff and it's chock full of different chassis and engine combinations.

nigelred5

8th July 2009, 15:02

I have no idea why the manufacturers compete in NASCAR. I'm sure they have their reasons, probably something along the lines of teaching their engineers to think. NASCAR has no technical relevence to road cars. When was the last time you saw a carborated V-8 with 2 valves per cylinder? If one of them actually did find some magic trick that could pull an extra 20 Hp out of the engine, NASCAR would imediatly outlaw it. So what technical reason is there to be there? But obviously they do have their reasons, and I don't be-grudge them. I just don't think those same reasons will ever apply to IndyCar racing, at least not in the near future.

1 word- Marketing - to the average blue collar american and catering to the ages old battle between chevy-ford and mopar. Toyota's entrance to the Cup series never made sense to me. The truck series made perfect sense marketing V8 trucks, but selling 4 door Camrys????

Lee Roy

8th July 2009, 15:08

I have no idea why the manufacturers compete in NASCAR.

Because people are interested in NASCAR.

That's why the manufacturers have all developed new engines. The Ford one being the latest.

http://www.jayski.com/pages/enginerules.htm

BTW, you said: "If one of them actually did find some magic trick that could pull an extra 20 Hp out of the engine, NASCAR would imediatly outlaw it. So what technical reason is there to be there?"

Tell me a racing series that doesn't have rules. Even F1 limits engine development.

Also, why are they building wind tunnels in the Charlotte, North Carolina area?

http://www.jayski.com/pages/windtunnel.htm

chuck34

8th July 2009, 15:16

Because people are interested in NASCAR.

That's why the manufacturers have all developed new engines. The Ford one being the latest.

http://www.jayski.com/pages/enginerules.htm

BTW, you said: "If one of them actually did find some magic trick that could pull an extra 20 Hp out of the engine, NASCAR would imediatly outlaw it. So what technical reason is there to be there?"

Tell me a racing series that doesn't have rules. Even F1 limits engine development.

Also, why are they building wind tunnels in the Charlotte, North Carolina area?

http://www.jayski.com/pages/windtunnel.htm

Of course I know about the marketing. I was talking technically. Right now a NASCAR engine has nothing to do with a road car.

That's my point about the rules. Every series has rules that will outlaw things now. That's why it doesn't make technical sence for manufacturers to develop things.

They are building wind tunnels because teams need more and more time in them to find the 0.00001 seconds of a change.

I think that everyone is missing my point. The point is that manufacturers, in this day and age, will not flock to any series without a big insentive. One insentive is marketing. Which is really why they are in NASCAR. Another insentive could be technological. But I don't think that any series is really going to allow technological advancements. Especially not the IRL right now, unless something major changes.

Rex Monaco

8th July 2009, 15:25

Why do I think that if the analogy mentioned Obama instead of Caribou Barbie you wouldn't be having such a hissy fit?

It would be a better analogy, as both promised us hope and change as they attempt(ed) to force their vision upon the 'fans', alienating a large portion of them.

V12

8th July 2009, 15:29

My thoughts:

I will often (not just on here this board, and not just on this whole forum for that matter), make negative comments about a particular racing series. Not to troll or antagonise, but mainly out of frustration at seeing something I love and have an interest in (hence my presence on the board in the first place) not fulfilling its potential (maybe not the best way to put it, but the best I could think of).

I appreciate nothing can ever be perfect, but my support of something is never blind and unconditional. At the same point something having a few flaws won't always stop me from watching it, taking an interest in it and talking about it.

IndyCar in it's current state has some great things, for me personally, four Brits to root for and other drivers who I admire and have a soft spot for, hell even the whole Danica obsession, which I overall class as a negative point against the series, gives me a driver to root against, which can be a positive.

The racing is sometimes exciting, sometimes not, and providing that this is all real and not manipulated then that suits me down to the ground. I love steak but if I ate it every day I'd get sick of it, same with an "exciting" race.

But there are ways I think it could be improved, like letting the world at large know that the series actually contains drivers with a Y chromosome and a nutsack (the dancing fence climber not withstanding). And opening up the specs to make it a battle of technology as well as driving and setup.

As I said, these flaws aren't going to make me turn off completely so long as the positive aspects are sufficient enough, but I'm sure as hell going to comment on the negatives when I have an opinion.

garyshell

8th July 2009, 15:54

Chaparral66

8th July 2009, 16:06

No, I did NOT make the remark about Tony. If I had, I would have agreed with Bob Riebe, there was no analogy between the governor and King George. I made the comparison between downtowndeco and the governor (original quote below). I think THAT comparison was and is valid. Both bailed out when things didn't go their way.

Gary

Sorry, my bad on that one. But now that kind of comparison would apply to TG as well, don'cha think? I mean, now that he got control of open wheel racing which is what he wanted, he bailed as soon as he learned he didn't have access to the pursestrings anymore.

garyshell

8th July 2009, 16:19

Sorry, my bad on that one. But now that kind of comparison would apply to TG as well, don'cha think? I mean, now that he got control of open wheel racing which is what he wanted, he bailed as soon as he learned he didn't have access to the pursestrings anymore.

No, I honestly don't. It is one thing to be handed your walking papers (King George) and quite another to just bail out (the governor).

As for King George leaving the IRL management position once the purse strings were cut, I do NOT blame him one bit for doing that. I think his response is reasonable and understandable given the circumstances. Oh my god, did I really just come to the defense of the idiot grandson?

Gary

nigelred5

8th July 2009, 16:52

You just came to the defense of the idiot grandson and actually credited him with making a rational big boy decision on top of it.!

Chaparral66

8th July 2009, 17:26

No, I honestly don't. It is one thing to be handed your walking papers (King George) and quite another to just bail out (the governor).

As for King George leaving the IRL management position once the purse strings were cut, I do NOT blame him one bit for doing that. I think his response is reasonable and understandable given the circumstances. Oh my god, did I really just come to the defense of the idiot grandson?

Gary

Yikes, Gary, you're starting to scare us. Yes, IMS did boot him ou of the CEO role at the speedway, so you thought are logical on that point. However, he was given every opportunity to stay in charge of the IRL and devote his full attention to it (careful what you wish for for Tony, because now you've got it). He got control of open wheel racing. But he obviously got wind of the stone cold reality of trying to build a series without the cashflow from the family fortune to keep it going, and decided he couldn't play this hand without a stacked deck. In that light, in leaving his position and the IRL in this flux, I do look at it much like I do the Palin abdication. Cynically speaking, I imagine Tony G. began to realize how history may look at this whole affair, and decided to cut strings now and limit the damage control to a minimum.

Bob Riebe

8th July 2009, 18:41

As far as Grand-Am, yeah they are playing to empty houses, but they are growning. When you start from nothing, anything is a big increase. Plus I hear their ratings are up about 25-30% over last year. The IRL could learn a lot. It's not the France family money supporting Grand-Am (from what I understand at least), they make money off the competitors, suppliers, and sponsors. Gate receipts are just gravy. Again, the IRL could learn something.From day one, if one would pull out the money from the France family GARRA is a corpse.

NASCAR had a series that was groomed -by hook or by crook- with Big Bill running the show.
Open wheel has NONE of what Bill France used to keep NASCAR going, (a major part of which was working Detroit).
NASCAR has hero drivers and Bill France worked system that, to a degree, blended the "new" drivers to be a seamless replacment for the old ones.

NO other series has/had a Bill France and they CANNOT imitate, in any manner what Bill France did.
The SCCA, by its own admission from a Autoweek & Comp. Press I have, tried this with the Trans-Am and it died.

Open wheel without the name of an engine maker to bring in gearheads, has NOTHING to keep the show rolling. The number of fans who are driver hero worshippers wouldn't fill the grandstands at a quarter-mile track; oh yes it has Indianapolis and that is all.