15 Long Years!

[T-D]

We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise.

[nigelred5]

And fret what is now left with nothing to bankroll the series. I thought Kalkoven's comments were interesting, basically "this wasn't what I signed up for when We merged."

It was all about power, and once he had it, he didn't know what to do with it.

[Chris R]

While I agree with your sentiments about TG being the largest player in the demise of AOWR - I would not be so quick to celebrate - I see nobody in the wings with the deep pockets or commitment to the sport to keep the IRL (and therefore AOWR) alive let alone moving forward....

As bad as the IRL was for AOWR - NASCAR would be 500 times worse - NASCAR has pretty much ruined its premiere series (from a technical point of view) - they have spawned the Grand Am series which is a technical snoozer with little fan interest and they seem to think pushrod V-8's with carbs are a good idea still...

[markabilly]

While I agree with your sentiments about TG being the largest player in the demise of AOWR - I would not be so quick to celebrate - I see nobody in the wings with the deep pockets or commitment to the sport to keep the IRL (and therefore AOWR) alive let alone moving forward....

As bad as the IRL was for AOWR - NASCAR would be 500 times worse - NASCAR has pretty much ruined its premiere series (from a technical point of view) - they have spawned the Grand Am series which is a technical snoozer with little fan interest and they seem to think pushrod V-8's with carbs are a good idea still...
my thoughts exactly as stated in other thread, unfortunately

[SarahFan]

old saying in recovery: you have to put just as much time and energy in to your recovery as you put into your destruction

wont be a speedy recovery....in fact i dare suggest things haven't quit hit bottom yet, close, but not there yet...

the first 1/2 of the next 15 might be slow and agonizing at times...

but I'll make it to more than 1 race!

[FIAT1]

We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise.



I could not agree more!

[garyshell]

We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise.


I would have gladly joined in that "celebration" had it occurred 14 years, 10 years or even 5 years ago. I have never cared for "King" George. But, now what do we have? No alternative series waiting in the wings, a loss of the bankroll that has propped things up the past few years, an economy in the dumper meaning less dollars from sponsors, a power vacuum in the middle of the damn season, etc. etc.

Not sure I see much to celebrate here.

Gary

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I'm not celebrating. That's morbid.

[fugariracing]

I would have gladly joined in that "celebration" had it occurred 14 years, 10 years or even 5 years ago. I have never cared for "King" George. But, now what do we have? No alternative series waiting in the wings, a loss of the bankroll that has propped things up the past few years, an economy in the dumper meaning less dollars from sponsors, a power vacuum in the middle of the damn season, etc. etc.

Not sure I see much to celebrate here.

Gary

Well said Gary. Things will probably keep getting worse before they get better, not to mention ratings are unfortunately the driving force behind new sponsorship and they have been down across the board in each race this year. A shame really that things have regressed as bad as they have from Feb '08 to now.

[methanolHuffer]

There's nothing to celebrate nor is there much to grieve, really.
The season will continue. The 2-3 teams that have the best budget will continue to perform predictably.
Next year there will be lots of gossip and speculation. The players and powerbrokers of this part of the sport will have less credibility of course, as they kind of like to keep the laity in the dark as much as possible.

I wonder why TG couldn't have been more honest last month - unless he thought there was going to be some kind of turn around in the performance of the series. I think he was over his head from the beginning.

[Bob Riebe]

We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise.
To prove what that CART was a scam that could not survive without the five-hundred and that nothing else really matters, including the IRL, beyond the five-hundred.

Most people knew that a LONG time ago before CART or the IRL existed.

Indy will survive, it always has.

[Bob Riebe]

I think he was over his head from the beginning.
I believe, THAT is somewhat of an understatement.
If only his father had not been murdered this would not have happened; of course there is not assurance that something like this was not inevitable.
Bob
I.E. who in 1995 would have thought of the destruction of GM at the hand of the U.S. government?

[garyshell]

Indy will survive, it always has.

Indy as in the Indy 500, or Indy as in IMS. If the former, don't be so sure. If the IRL were to wither away, how can it survive as a race if there are no other events? What team or sponsor is going to seriously consider doing a one-off event? I don't see any survival, despite all the history and tradition, if there are no other events. The cost is too high to put a team together and not amortize the costs over a series of races. That's why we no longer see any real one-off teams in the 500.

Gary

[Chris R]

I believe, THAT is somewhat of an understatement.
If only his father had not been murdered this would not have happened; of course there is not assurance that something like this was not inevitable.
Bob
I.E. who in 1995 would have thought of the destruction of GM at the hand of the U.S. government?

TG's father murdered?? Please fill us in - didn't know that....

[methanolHuffer]

Elmer was killed by a gunshot from his horse trainer (near Terre Haute). Shooting was thought to be self defense and no charges were filed.

I don't know who brought the gun into the argument/situation.

So "murdered" may have been misused - unless recent information brought charges. I'd have to look for more on it.

here's some hillbillyish dirt on that fiasco: http://specials.tribstar.com/hulman/LEGACY/LEGACY2.HTML

[Chris R]

To prove what that CART was a scam that could not survive without the five-hundred and that nothing else really matters, including the IRL, beyond the five-hundred.

Most people knew that a LONG time ago before CART or the IRL existed.

Indy will survive, it always has.

I know you are not a fan of CART - but I do not think it was a "scam" - Champcar may have been..

I understand you sentiment regarding the 500 - but I am not so confident it is strong enough to survive these times as a stand alone event.. I believe both Eddie Rickenbacker and Tony Hulman were last minute saviors for the track in the past - so the survival was even in doubt during both post-war periods.... The 500 is a great event - but I do not think one should take it potential for survival for granted.

indy is no longer the 800 pound gorilla - NASCAR is.

[jimispeed]

And it only took him less than 1 1/2 years to bring them both down together.

Poor leadership, and the inability to take advantage of a legacy.

[Bob Riebe]

Indy as in the Indy 500, or Indy as in IMS. If the former, don't be so sure. If the IRL were to wither away, how can it survive as a race if there are no other events? What team or sponsor is going to seriously consider doing a one-off event? I don't see any survival, despite all the history and tradition, if there are no other events. The cost is too high to put a team together and not amortize the costs over a series of races. That's why we no longer see any real one-off teams in the 500.

Gary
The Indianapolis 500 would still be the highest paying race in the country, and maybe the George family would make the purse even higher.

I am not going to theorize on what the rules might be but racers would come; if it had new unique rules, spectators would come JUST to see what the new stuff was. At least for awhile.

Put it this way Unlimited Hydroplane racing survived the death of Bernie Little so I think Indy will survive.

[garyshell]

I think Indy will survive.

Without a supporting series there is no way the Indy 500 can survive. The costs are way to high now. Figure out some way to make it affordable for one-off's and it MIGHT work. I anxiously await the answer as to how that affordability is realized. I don't see it happening.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

Indy will survive, it always has.

I'm sure that's what (the last) Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustus, said about the Roman Empire.

When nostalgic feelings meet with reality, reality most often wins the day. Oh well...

[Blancvino]

Without a supporting series there is no way the Indy 500 can survive. The costs are way to high now. Figure out some way to make it affordable for one-off's and it MIGHT work. I anxiously await the answer as to how that affordability is realized. I don't see it happening.

Gary

I believe this is the beginning of the end. I believe, the only game in town is now about to collapse. I am one of those CART/Champcar supporters who refused to support the IRL after they won the "war". I watched Champcar fail. I am not about to watch this series fall into the abyss. And it's going to fall.

Tony is now left with just Vision Racing as his empire and he has to support it on his on nickle. How long do you think he is going to prop that team up? Will the team even see the end of the season?

This is a bitter outcome to what should have NEVER happened!

[Blancvino]

Elmer was killed by a gunshot from his horse trainer (near Terre Haute). Shooting was thought to be self defense and no charges were filed.

I don't know who brought the gun into the argument/situation.

So "murdered" may have been misused - unless recent information brought charges. I'd have to look for more on it.

here's some hillbillyish dirt on that fiasco: http://specials.tribstar.com/hulman/LEGACY/LEGACY2.HTML


The guy was testing the bed springs with Mari (ATG's mother) when the shooting happended.

[D28]

Tony George is not the first American to inherit his grandfather's millions, but none of his abilities. Too bad he didn't enter Democrat politics instead of motor racing. To destroy CART/IRL racing and poison the chances of F1 returning to the US in the forseeable future is quite the accomplishment.

[Bob Riebe]

Tony George is not the first American to inherit his grandfather's millions, but none of his abilities. Too bad he didn't enter Democrat politics instead of motor racing. To destroy CART/IRL racing and poison the chances of F1 returning to the US in the forseeable future is quite the accomplishment.
CART destroyed itself; if it was so great, it would have survived without Indy.

[jimispeed]

Say what you want, but TG ruined open wheel by creating his own series thus taking away CART from IMS. Then, repeatedly refused to reach an agreement for any unification (including the so called unification "buyout"), along with using every opportunity to put CART/Champcar away for good. Then he got his wish, even bought rights to the CART/Champcar archives......and in the process he brought down everything.

That was the end of it.

[downtowndeco]

Seems like they're all coming out of the woodwork to rewrite history today.

The plain and simple fact is CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. One bad decision after another capped off with the IPO meant that they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not.

CCWS was a bad idea from day one. They started a series when they knew darn good & well that there was only room for one OW series.

Finally, there was no merger. That is a fantasy perpetuated by CC fans to aleveate the pain of losing the so called "war". CCWS went out of business. TG bought what he could use at a fire sale. There were no other takers.

The IRL and IMS will be here 10 years from now. This is just a slight adjusting of the game plan. A fresh set of eyes and ideas will be good for everyone.

Cheers!

[garyshell]

Seems like they're all coming out of the woodwork to rewrite history today.

The plain and simple fact is CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. One bad decision after another capped off with the IPO meant that they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not.

CCWS was a bad idea from day one. They started a series when they knew darn good & well that there was only room for one OW series.

Finally, there was no merger. That is a fantasy perpetuated by CC fans to aleveate the pain of losing the so called "war". CCWS went out of business. TG bought what he could use at a fire sale. There were no other takers.

The IRL and IMS will be here 10 years from now. This is just a slight adjusting of the game plan. A fresh set of eyes and ideas will be good for everyone.

Cheers!


And here we have another one ready to not only re-write history in his own way but doing so while predicting future events that never came to be, for example: "they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not". Wow. I am really impressed, Nostradamus.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Don't disagree with what you've written here.


CART was great (once) because of the marriage of Indy - the biggest race in the world - and a viable series of other events which kept the interest and exposure alive year round. It had the best of both and that was what made it so good. Neither Indy nor competing series could equal what was on their own. It (CART) and the Indy brand (by that I mean all things Indy) were both taken down by shortsighted people, and some who were just greedy, on both sides of the fence.

[downtowndeco]

I have a right to my opinion as much as the next guy. The laundry list of mistakes CC management made backs me up.


And here we have another one ready to not only re-write history in his own way but doing so while predicting future events that never came to be, for example: "they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not". Wow. I am really impressed, Nostradamus.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

BTW. Which of my points do you disagree with?


And here we have another one ready to not only re-write history in his own way but doing so while predicting future events that never came to be, for example: "they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not". Wow. I am really impressed, Nostradamus.

Gary

[T-D]

downtown, history will show that tg destroyed usow racing.

as for your viewpoints: whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy at night.

[D28]

I followed CART in the days of Greg Moore, E. Fittipaldi, N Mansell, and others. What exactly did TG not like about this series? Honestly I forget. Looking up his race record, it mentions 5 top ten finishes in Indy Lights. Reallly. This means in his entire life as a driver/entrant in American competition, he has never won anything? My point is_ If his grandfather had of been a paint magnate, TG might have went into painting houses, he has no aptitude whatever for motor racing.

[Bob Riebe]

Say what you want, but TG ruined open wheel by creating his own series thus taking away CART from IMS. Then, repeatedly refused to reach an agreement for any unification (including the so called unification "buyout"), along with using every opportunity to put CART/Champcar away for good. Then he got his wish, even bought rights to the CART/Champcar archives......and in the process he brought down everything.

That was the end of it.
IF you are going down that road CART destroyed open wheel racing by breaking from USAC and suing to get back to Indy.
The seeds of hate were sown THEN!

[Bob Riebe]

Seems like they're all coming out of the woodwork to rewrite history today.

The plain and simple fact is CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. One bad decision after another capped off with the IPO meant that they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not.

CCWS was a bad idea from day one. They started a series when they knew darn good & well that there was only room for one OW series.

Finally, there was no merger. That is a fantasy perpetuated by CC fans to aleveate the pain of losing the so called "war". CCWS went out of business. TG bought what he could use at a fire sale. There were no other takers.

The IRL and IMS will be here 10 years from now. This is just a slight adjusting of the game plan. A fresh set of eyes and ideas will be good for everyone.

Cheers!

IMS yes, but I would not bet more than a plug nickel on the IRL.

[chuck34]

I followed CART in the days of Greg Moore, E. Fittipaldi, N Mansell, and others. What exactly did TG not like about this series? Honestly I forget. Looking up his race record, it mentions 5 top ten finishes in Indy Lights. Reallly. This means in his entire life as a driver/entrant in American competition, he has never won anything? My point is_ If his grandfather had of been a paint magnate, TG might have went into painting houses, he has no aptitude whatever for motor racing.

Why exactly did he have to be a great racing driver to run a series? The two are mutually exclusive. And his grandfather wasn't a paint magnate, he was a baking powder magnate. But what does that have to do with anything either?

[Bob Riebe]

downtown, history will show that tg destroyed usow racing.

as for your viewpoints: whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy at night. No it won't because that is a lie.
TG was not fit to run a series, and the CART people were not fit to run a series.
Maybe they learned how from the SCCA people.

[chuck34]

Without a supporting series there is no way the Indy 500 can survive. The costs are way to high now. Figure out some way to make it affordable for one-off's and it MIGHT work. I anxiously await the answer as to how that affordability is realized. I don't see it happening.

Gary

Perhaps without a supporting series, the rules can be opened up and costs will go down. If you aren't forced to run the damn expensive Honda lump, maybe you can make a go of it.

Most one-off's do work now, as long as they make the show. Otherwise no one would do them.

[SarahFan]

I have a right to my opinion as much as the next guy. up.


problem is you didn't present it as opinion..


you said it was a plain simple fact..


which is of coarse, like most of your posts....plainly and simply rediculous

[downtowndeco]

OK. Let me say it this way then.

It is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. One bad decision after another capped off with the IPO meant that they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not.

It is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that CCWS was a bad idea from day one. They started a series when they knew darn good & well that there was only room for one OW series.

Finally, it is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that there was no merger. That is a fantasy perpetuated by CC fans to aleveate the pain of losing the so called "war". CCWS went out of business. TG bought what he could use at a fire sale. There were no other takers.

It is my opinion that the IRL and IMS will be here 10 years from now. This is just a slight adjusting of the game plan. A fresh set of eyes and ideas will be good for everyone.

There. Put that way which of my points does anyone disagree with and why?

Just because I'm not of the "Everything wrong with OWR is always TG's fault" mob does not mean I am always wrong.

[SarahFan]

all of your opinion are heavily influenced by TG formation of the IRL....

eliminate the IRL and your opinions are silly.... especially that CART was towards BK


then there was the formation of the Champcar by Kk etc.... of coarse based on the current state of the IRL perhaps it wasn't such a bad idea, poorly executed for certain... bad idea? debatable certainly

[garyshell]

BTW. Which of my points do you disagree with?

This one, where you accuse, with disdain, everyone else of doing something and then proceed to do it yourself.


Seems like they're all coming out of the woodwork to rewrite history today.

Gary

[SarahFan]

and TG and mari are really the only ones who have consistantly referred to it as a 'Merger'

[garyshell]

Just because I'm not of the "Everything wrong with OWR is always TG's fault" mob does not mean I am always wrong.

And just because you are of the "Everything right with OWR is because of King George" mob does not mean you are always right, either.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

all of your opinion are heavily influenced by TG formation of the IRL....

eliminate the IRL and your opinions are silly
Wrong, not about his opinion, that is strictly for him to say, but Dan Gurney, one of dorks who came up with CART, said, (you can look it up I an not your librarian) he was forced out of CART, by CART rule changes.

Now if that does not show that CART was a cluster-fock run like a chinese fire-drill, then nothing anyone says will convince without regard to reality.
They picked at their own scabs till they bled themselves dry.

[downtowndeco]

If you want to answer don't the question (which of my points do you disagree with and why?), well, OK. Poke a finger at me & don't answer the question. It doesn't bother me.

And if the only response is "Well, eliminate the IRL and...." all it tells me that you are just not being fair about how messed up the CART (and later CCWS) business model was and how many truely bad decisions (that had nothing to do with TG & the IRL) that they made.

The point I'm trying to make is that things were never as rosy in CC land as some of you seem to remember. You guys remember it as the Titanic at the dock on it's maiden voyage. The reality is disaster was just right around the corner, and 95% of the damage was self inflicted by greed, ego and arrogance.

[SarahFan]

If you want to answer don't the question (which of my points do you disagree with and why?), well, OK. Poke a finger at me & don't answer the question. It doesn't bother me.

And if the only response is "Well, eliminate the IRL and...." all it tells me that you are just not being fair about how messed up the CART (and later CCWS) business model was and how many truely bad decisions (that had nothing to do with TG & the IRL) that they made.

The point I'm trying to make is that things were never as rosy in CC land as some of you seem to remember. You guys remember it as the Titanic at the dock on it's maiden voyage. The reality is disaster was just right around the corner, and 95% of the damage was self inflicted by greed, ego and arrogance.

take a realistic look at the state of the IRL.... then get back to us

[garyshell]

take a realistic look at the state of the IRL.... then get back to us


Well, good luck with that! And don't hold your breath while waiting.

Gary

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Sorry, I meant to post a reply in another thread.

[Blancvino]

OK. Let me say it this way then.

It is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. One bad decision after another capped off with the IPO meant that they were going to go out of business whether TG started the IRL or not.

It is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that CCWS was a bad idea from day one. They started a series when they knew darn good & well that there was only room for one OW series.

Finally, it is my very strong personal opinion which I feel is backed up by history that there was no merger. That is a fantasy perpetuated by CC fans to aleveate the pain of losing the so called "war". CCWS went out of business. TG bought what he could use at a fire sale. There were no other takers.

It is my opinion that the IRL and IMS will be here 10 years from now. This is just a slight adjusting of the game plan. A fresh set of eyes and ideas will be good for everyone.

There. Put that way which of my points does anyone disagree with and why?

Just because I'm not of the "Everything wrong with OWR is always TG's fault" mob does not mean I am always wrong.

You may have, in the past, made some critiques of TG but I pass over most of you posts because you and I have fundamentally different views on the matter.

Riddle this ...

What has TG done wrong in the past 15 years?

[downtowndeco]

What has he done wrong?

He should have tried to massage the egos of the board a bit more before he decided to break away & start the IRL. Seeing how stubborn and arrogant they were I don't know that it would have made any difference in the end but I think both sides would have tried to do things differently if they had to do it all over again.

He played nice with CART too long. What I mean is that for the first 10 years or so he stuck to the all oval schedule, in part, because I think he was trying to be a good neighbor & stay out of CC's territory. What he should have done is in year two or three is he should have right there added a couple good road courses and even put on a street race. It would have ripped CC's claim of being the most diverse series right out of their hands & would have probably helped to convince some of the CC teams to come over to the IRL sooner.

He should have hired a spokesman & just stayed out of the public light. He is a terrible public speaker & does not exude confidence. It does not mean he is an idiot. But he needed to put someone with a little carisma in front of the public eye while he did what he needed to do in the main office.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't dwell on the negative. I think that there is a big posse here that pretty much already covers whatever mistep he may take. I'll let them handle the D&G, & I'll cover the other side of the coin.

Cheers.


You may have, in the past, made some critiques of TG but I pass over most of you posts because you and I have fundamentally different views on the matter.

Riddle this ...

What has TG done wrong in the past 15 years?

[D28]

[quote="chuck34"]Why exactly did he have to be a great racing driver to run a series? The two are mutually exclusive. And his grandfather wasn't a paint magnate, he was a baking powder magnate. But what does that have to do with anything either?[/

Nothing. I was attempting irony, merely suggesting that the sole reason TG got involved in racing was because his grandfather owned IMS. I believe motorsport would be better off if he had taken his interests/millions to some other sport or business.

[SarahFan]

Anything of value you'd like to add to the topic?


nope...

i just find it funny that guy who says...' I don't dwell on the negative.'......doesn't attend races.....never ever discusses the races, the racers or teams.... and whose main focus seems to be Cart and CC failing would make such a comment... remember its not that hard to click on the find all post by this poster link......my interpretation of your posting is easily verifiable...

so... besides dwelling on the negtive surounding the failing of Cc and Cart would you like to discuss the past 15 years of the IRL, speciffically TG creation of, running of, and now no longer being in charge of...as the thread title suggests

would like to discuss the Vision... how it changed over time... how the IRL evolved into a weak version of Champcar.... how it is no longer oval centric... how it cost over 600million to run while never turning profit.... that it has evelved into a spec series with such poor racing even the drivers are making apologies in post race interviews.... how its currently experienceing the lowest TV ratings in the history of the sport....

like i said its comedy how you attempt to deflect the topic to CC and CART.....

[Blancvino]

What has he done wrong?

He should have tried to massage the egos of the board a bit more before he decided to break away & start the IRL. Seeing how stubborn and arrogant they were I don't know that it would have made any difference in the end but I think both sides would have tried to do things differently if they had to do it all over again.

He played nice with CART too long. What I mean is that for the first 10 years or so he stuck to the all oval schedule, in part, because I think he was trying to be a good neighbor & stay out of CC's territory. What he should have done is in year two or three is he should have right there added a couple good road courses and even put on a street race. It would have ripped CC's claim of being the most diverse series right out of their hands & would have probably helped to convince some of the CC teams to come over to the IRL sooner.

He should have hired a spokesman & just stayed out of the public light. He is a terrible public speaker & does not exude confidence. It does not mean he is an idiot. But he needed to put someone with a little carisma in front of the public eye while he did what he needed to do in the main office.

I'm sure there's more but that's all I can think of off the top of my head. I don't dwell on the negative. I think that there is a big posse here that pretty much already covers whatever mistep he may take. I'll let them handle the D&G, & I'll cover the other side of the coin.

Cheers.

Interesting, be nice to your prey before you go for the jugular.

How does it feel to watch it all go down the crapper? Not fun, is it?

I wish I could laugh but it's just a regrettable situation.

[methanolHuffer]

Some people in Indianapolis love to hate anyone critical of the Colts and its owner, the Pacers and its owners and of course, the IMS and its owners.

My brother and I can have civil conversations about autoracing and just about everything, but when it comes to the quality of this league and its foundations, forget about it.

He will vehemently defend the the IRL and Tony for some unknown matter of pride. Neither of us has a stake in the success of the sport, we just like to attend a couple of races a year.

There are many people in town that would follow TG to the ends of the earth, but not enough to keep his series going. And that's the problem: outside of the indy 500, few people car about this series.

[downtowndeco]

I brought up CC because once again someone said "It's all TG's fault", totally disregarding the role CC management & it's fans had in the place we find ourselves today.

Some of you guys have been predicting the end of the IRL for almost 15 years now. It hasn't happened yet & isn't happening anytime soon. You're like these doomsday cult guys who say "The end is coming, really it is!" & then keep moving the date back because it hasn't happened yet. : ) Must be very dissapointing to you. : )

Mark my words. The IRL isn't going anywhere.

[SarahFan]

I brought up CC because once again someone said "It's all TG's fault", totally disregarding the role CC management & it's fans had in the place we find ourselves today.

Some of you guys have been predicting the end of the IRL for almost 15 years now. It hasn't happened yet & isn't happening anytime soon. You're like these doomsday cult guys who say "The end is coming, really it is!" & then keep moving the date back because it hasn't happened yet. : ) Must be very dissapointing to you. : )

Mark my words. The IRL isn't going anywhere.

if the current state of the IRL isnt Tony's responsibility whose is it?

*and if you could pull a single quote by me suggesting the IRL is/was going to fail.... or that the IRL wasn't going to bearound tomorrow or next week etc please do.....if not your simply putting words in posters mouths as usual

[methanolHuffer]

True, the IRL isn't going anywhere(financially).
They have yet to make a profit and everyone knows that when the family cuts off the money pump, TG will bring out the gold bars he has stashed beneath the yard of bricks that will keep it all going until that joke of a marketing sycophant 'just marketing' saves the day.

You don't have to dig very deep to find that the people surrounding this goof are 4th rate.

[SarahFan]

The plain and simple fact is CART was doomed way before TG started the IRL. !

i'm still trying ti figure how it can be a 'plain and simple fact that CART was doomed' had TG not started the IRL and the I500 had remained the cornerstone of its schedule?

can you support that comment in any fashion?

[downtowndeco]

Of course the IRL is where it is today because of decissions IRL management has made. AOW racing however, is in the prediciment because of many factions, not just TG & the IRL. That's where I am different than some here. I can see that everyone in OW management has some blame in where we are. Not just TG.

[SarahFan]

Of course the IRL is where it is today because of decissions IRL management has made. AOW racing however, is in the prediciment because of many factions, not just TG & the IRL. That's where I am different than some here. I can see that everyone in OW management has some blame in where we are. Not just TG.

where your different is you constantly bring up CC and CART and discount the current realities surrounding the sport.....again, posting history isnt that hard to verify

and this thread is clearly about TG and his tenure as the creator and facilitator of the IRL... and the his removal as CEO of hulman co and IMS and resignation fron from the IRL and the state he has left the sport in...

care to discuss?....or do you want to dwell on CC and CART?

[downtowndeco]

If you can't see or won't accept that CC management was driven by ego & greed and had a history of making very short sighted self serving business decissions than there is no where to go with you. You'll never accept it. They were thier own worst enemy. They were doing fine while eveything was doing fine. One small bump in the road and the wheels started to come off.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong here please, show me where I'm mistaken. Show me where CC was prudent. Had long term goals. Made wise decissions that were not based on spite, revenge & ego.

Again. I only bring it up because the reason TG formed the IRL is because he had the foresite to see where CC was headed. And he was right. Both CART & CCWS mismanaged themselves out of the business.




i'm still trying ti figure how it can be a 'plain and simple fact that CART was doomed' had TG not started the IRL and the I500 had remained the cornerstone of its schedule?

can you support that comment in any fashion?

[downtowndeco]

First post in this thread;

"We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise."

Sounds like he's blaming only one person for where we are today. That just isn't being honest. And neither are you.






where your different is you constantly bring up CC and CART and discount the current realities surrounding the sport.....again, posting history isnt that hard to verify

and this thread is clearly about TG and his tenure as the creator and facilitator of the IRL... and the his removal as CEO of hulman co and IMS and resignation fron from the IRL and the state he has left the sport in...

care to discuss?....or do you want to dwell on CC and CART?

[SarahFan]

If you can't see or won't accept that CC management was driven by ego & greed and had a history of making very short sighted self serving business decissions than there is no where to go with you. You'll never accept it. They were thier own worst enemy. They were doing fine while eveything was doing fine. One small bump in the road and the wheels started to come off.

If anyone thinks I'm wrong here please, show me where I'm mistaken. Show me where CC was prudent. Had long term goals. Made wise decissions that were not based on spite, revenge & ego.

Again. I only bring it up because the reason TG formed the IRL is because he had the foresite to see where CC was headed. And he was right. Both CART & CCWS mismanaged themselves out of the business.

you keep claiming this as fact....yet its something we will never know...

TG created the IRL and in doing so striopped CART of its cornerstone event.....sure thay made multiple blunders in desperate reaction....

but you have not made a single lucid point regarding whether CART would be viable had TG not created the IRL...... not a single one, becuase its impossible to know




2 undeniable facts....CART/CC didn't survive without the I500.... and the IRL has never seen financial success with it

[SarahFan]

First post in this thread;

"We were right, but it took 15 years to prove it.

Shame that this fool destroyed the great thing we had and drove the real fans away.

Today, we celebrate his demise."

Sounds like he's blaming only one person for where we are today. That just isn't being honest. And neither are you.


1995 PPG Indycar Series non-Indy TV ratings:

Homestead(ABC) 2.7 3,303,207 viewers
Surfers(ABC) 2.2 2,764,044
Phoenix(ABC) 3.1 3,843,854
Long Beach (ABC) 2.9 3,468,925
Nazareth(ABC) 2.9 3,726,432
Milwaukee(ABC) 2.2 2,813,930
Detroit(ABC) 3.1 3,855,765
Portland(ESPN) 1.7 2,215,031
Road America(ESPN) 1.0 1,075,359
Toronto(ABC) 2.6 3,148,145
Cleveland(ABC) 2.3 2.895,200
Michigan(ABC) 4.0 4.896,840
Mid-Ohio(ABC) 2.5 3,033,335
New Hampshire(ESPN2) 0.6 676,200
Vancouver(ABC) 1.4 1,629,504
Laguna Seca(ESPN2) 0.7 882,970


^above are the TV ratings for 1995....Michigan saw more viewers than this years 500...

what part of fans have tuned out by the millions isnt honest......

[Blancvino]

Of course the IRL is where it is today because of decissions IRL management has made. AOW racing however, is in the prediciment because of many factions, not just TG & the IRL. That's where I am different than some here. I can see that everyone in OW management has some blame in where we are. Not just TG.

At this point it's not, no matter how you spin it, George W. Bush or CART/Champcars' fault that TG was set to the curb by the BOD! The fact his own family cut him off is a MAJOR tell.

[jimispeed]

It was amazing, had beautiful cars that the the drivers adored and had to muscle around to keep ahold of. The persona and tv coverage was second to none with lots of sponsorship. TG split that all up. The cars and drivers on the CART side remained great, but the sponsors and budgets slowly dwindled. TG never produced an amazing car for the drivers in the IRL.

It's not even close right now. What does the future hold?? Will they remember what it was?? What are we all watching for?? Do we remember what great open wheel was??

Maybe I should start watching the old CART/Champcar/Indy500 tapes/DVDs...

[downtowndeco]

One word. Sisters.


At this point it's not, no matter how you spin it, George W. Bush or CART/Champcars' fault that TG was set to the curb by the BOD! The fact his own family cut him off is a MAJOR tell.

!

[Blancvino]

One word. Sisters.

This is my last dive into this.

Put yourself in his sister's position. He is spending their money like a [fill in your own word here]. They have the right and the fiduciary responsibility to put an end to the spending if they don't see any chance of a return on investment (ROI). The IMS is not a foundation, it's a business. Do you not believe TG brought this on himself?

What comes next is an open question. I am handicapping it at 3:1 the whole thing fails withing 18 months. This has the Champcar style demise written all over it. It was reported that KK was not putting another dime of his money into the series in 2008. Sounds like the sisters are are reading from KK's playbook.

[Chris R]

Both sides of the split had their fair share of idiots, ego, and greed.... Since we cannot tell what might have happened we can only tell what did happen.

FACT: CART was not perfect but was going along quite nicely in 1994. Prior to the split is was still a private company.

CONJECTURE: CART was on the road to doom in 1994 - perhaps this was the case - perhaps not - we will never know. They certainly had management issues - but so do many companies that thrive for many years.

FACT: CART rebuffed advances by Tony Gorge/IMS.

CONJECTURE: Why this was done....

FACT: Tony George formed the IRL and started racing in 1996

FACT: Neither side dealt graciously with the split.

FACT: CART went public in 1998

CONJECTURE: Why CART went public - greed or to raise capital to compete with IRL??

FACT: Neither series thrived

FACT: CART went out of business

FACT: Judge ruled against IRL/TG bid for CART

FACT: Champcar emerged from ashes of CART

FACT: Champcar failed

FACT: IRL is still not thriving

All three series have been run by people with large egos and a tremendous appetite for money. Many mistkaes havebeen made by all parties.

CART made many mistakes in how they reacted to the split - the split brought out the worst in many of the CART owners and managers. However, just because they reacted poorly to the competition created by the split does not mean they would have similarily blundered if there had been no split...

The formation of the IRL changed everything - you cannot judge the fate of CART separately from the formation of the IRL they are helplessly intertwined...

I am not making excuses for CART, Champcar or the IRL - personally I think they all worked very hard to ruin a very good thing - however, TG is the one who pulled the trigger on the split - nobody else.

all that being said - I hope the IRL grows and thrives because it is AOWR at this point. I hope the Indy 500 puts on some weight and kicks the 800 pound NASCAR gorilla to the curb and takes its rightful place as the center of American mootrsports - but right now NASCAR is king and the fools who have run AOWR since circa "the split" have only themselves to blame because collectively they have pretty much managed to kill he goose who laid the golden egg.....

[downtowndeco]

Here is the sisters position. IMO they're sitting there collecting their checks and spending their days shopping not caring (or knowing) two rats behinds about auto racing, IMS or running a business. They just know that the ledger is not as full as it used to be. Well f'n duh. The economy has tanked. Everyone is hurting. Everyone. And I see them as saying "Well, we want ours regardless of what happens". OK. Fair enough. But by being short sighted they're really putting the hurt on 15 years of work TG spent building something.

IMO he said "Ok, you think you can do better? Here are the keys."

Think about it. How much sense does it make for them to stop investing now? If every business that was going through a tough time right now (and most are) called all the chips in and wanted to cash them where would that leave us?

I'm telling you. IMO the sisters are being very short sighted about all of this.


This is my last dive into this.

Put yourself in his sister's position. He is spending their money like a [fill in your own word here]. They have the right and the fiduciary responsibility to put an end to the spending if they don't see any chance of a return on investment (ROI). The IMS is not a foundation, it's a business. Do you not believe TG brought this on himself?

What comes next is an open question. I am handicapping it at 3:1 the whole thing fails withing 18 months. This has the Champcar style demise written all over it. It was reported that KK was not putting another dime of his money into the series in 2008. Sounds like the sisters are are reading from KK's playbook.

[downtowndeco]

And I still maintain that you're letting CC off the hook for looking Tony George, the guy who owned the biggest race in the world, the most important race on CART's calender by far, straight in the eye and saying "Go ahead. We dare you. Start your own series".

They dared him. He did it. And he put them out of business.

Like I said before though. I'm sure both sides would do things differently if they had it to do over again.


I am not making excuses for CART, Champcar or the IRL - personally I think they all worked very hard to ruin a very good thing - however, TG is the one who pulled the trigger on the split - nobody else.

[Chris R]

And I still maintain that you're letting CC off the hook for looking Tony George, the guy who owned the biggest race in the world, the most important race on CART's calender by far, straight in the eye and saying "Go ahead. We dare you. Start your own series".

They dared him. He did it. And he put them out of business.

Like I said before though. I'm sure both sides would do things differently if they had it to do over again.

I would sure hope they would do it differently!! :p

I think both sides seriously mis-judged how much they needed each other Playing "chicken" in business makes heroes and zeroes - in this case they ended up slamming into each other head on and everybody lost.....

While I agree with the notion of "he put them out of business" - it was certainly a pyrrhic victory given the current state of AOWR and TG own personal fate at the moment....

[downtowndeco]

Fair enough statement. Like I said. Both sides would do things differently.


I would sure hope they would do it differently!! :p

I think both sides seriously mis-judged how much they needed each other Playing "chicken" in business makes heroes and zeroes - in this case they ended up slamming into each other head on and everybody lost.....

While I agree with the notion of "he put them out of business" - it was certainly a pyrrhic victory given the current state of AOWR and TG own personal fate at the moment....

[garyshell]

And I still maintain that you're letting CC off the hook for looking Tony George, the guy who owned the biggest race in the world, the most important race on CART's calender by far, straight in the eye and saying "Go ahead. We dare you. Start your own series".


I just love how you like to word things so that your own conjecture or interpretation comes out sounding like facts. The dare above is a perfect example. The use of quotation marks, when you know very well no such quotation exists anywhere, is rather indicative.


They dared him. He did it. And he put them out of business.

Yep, he put them out of business alright, and at the same time appears to have put himself out of the business.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Fair enough. But what would you have TG do once they told him to put up or shut up? What should he have done at that juncture? Seriously, I would like to know what they way out of that one was.


Almost unarguably the single biggest blunder, of many, made by any of the mentioned parties. Directly followed by the formation of the IRL in competition to CART.

[chuck34]

I just love how you like to word things so that your own conjecture or interpretation comes out sounding like facts. The dare above is a perfect example. The use of quotation marks, when you know very well no such quotation exists anywhere, is rather indicative.



Yep, he put them out of business alright, and at the same time appears to have put himself out of the business.

Gary

I just love how you like to word things so that YOUR own conjecture or interpretation comes out sounding like facts. CART managent is/was as knee deep into this mess as anyone.

Lets review, I may have a few things wrong (I'm sure someone will correct me). TG wanted a seat on the board, the owners told him no. Then he said (basically) I'll go around you and start my own series to run the 500, you're all welcome to come and play if you use my rules. Then CART did the dumbest thing (in my opinion) in history. They told TG to f' off, and went and started the US 500 in Michigan for the same day as the 500. TG then made up the 25/8 rule. That still left at least a bit of room for CART teams. But they, CART, were too proud to compromise even at that point (except for Galles I believe had cars at both races??).

So you see each side has as much blame as the other. But to try and make CART's managment look clean as a whistle is as dumb as trying to keep TG blameless.

[downtowndeco]

For gods sake, that was the gist of it, not an exact quote.

Do you dispute CART told Tony to pound sand? Come on Gary. You're better than that. Don't be so disingenious.


I just love how you like to word things so that your own conjecture or interpretation comes out sounding like facts. The dare above is a perfect example. The use of quotation marks, when you know very well no such quotation exists anywhere, is rather indicative.



Yep, he put them out of business alright, and at the same time appears to have put himself out of the business.

Gary

[indycool]

Regardless of peoples' views of TG and the split, it remains to be seen what the restructuring of Hulman-George management will accomplish or will NOT accomplish.

It appears they have an ops guy (Chitwood, Barnhart) and a bucks guy (Angstadt, Belskus) running IMS and the IRL now. Does this allow them to go ahead and make decisions and run the business without looking over their shoulders or asking permission? Are they capable? Will someone else be brought in, and not a Bob Reif or Phil Lengyel or some other nameless failure?

Is there any indication at all that the IRL is about to check out? Is it possible that TG was the focus of a lot more blame than he created and the new depth chart will work better?

We wait, we watch, we look, we see.

[Jag_Warrior]

It was amazing, had beautiful cars that the the drivers adored and had to muscle around to keep ahold of. The persona and tv coverage was second to none with lots of sponsorship. TG split that all up. The cars and drivers on the CART side remained great, but the sponsors and budgets slowly dwindled. TG never produced an amazing car for the drivers in the IRL.

It's not even close right now. What does the future hold?? Will they remember what it was?? What are we all watching for?? Do we remember what great open wheel was??

Maybe I should start watching the old CART/Champcar/Indy500 tapes/DVDs...

Many of us figured that the best days were behind us. Recent events just seem to confirm that sentiment.

There are fans who have been burning DVD's for several years. It's probably not a bad idea to convert the VHS tapes to DVD before they degrade. The really sad thing is, I believe that clueless boob, Kalkhoven, included the rights to the old CART footage in his sellout to Tony boy. So there could be legal issues if people become too vocal in what they're doing. ;)

[SarahFan]

Regardless of peoples' views of TG and the split, it remains to be seen what the restructuring of Hulman-George management will accomplish or will NOT accomplish.
.

I agree 100% IC...

but i'd also add that for me... and i suspect as time goes history will show Tuesday as the true end of the split era.... not last feb

[downtowndeco]

It's getting awful quiet in here. : ) Anyone have an answer for this question yet? It's one thing to say TG starting the IRL was wrong. But what should he have done differently, given the position CART put him in? Just wondering.....



Fair enough. But what would you have TG do once they told him to put up or shut up? What should he have done at that juncture? Seriously, I would like to know what they way out of that one was.

[NickFalzone]

I think TG by far made the best call of not going with the suggestion of IRL leadership and basically packing his bags. What he did was not only best for any self-respect he has left, but also I think the best for the league. Whatever the chances are of the IRL finally getting back on its feet, and I think MHG and crew will get the series through the Centennial era at least, it needs to do so with a new management. This is the same situation as when a large company reports lower than expected earnings and needs to fire or replace leadership in order to appease stockholders. Whether the new crew is actually "better" is not the point, the point is that regardless, a change needed to be made.

[994ever]

It's getting awful quiet in here. : ) Anyone have an answer for this question yet? It's one thing to say TG starting the IRL was wrong. But what should he have done differently, given the position CART put him in? Just wondering.....

Let's assume Tony was 100% right to shun the unprecedentedly high ratings, notoriety and depth of field the Indy 500 enjoyed during the CART era...does that make him a hero for a) holding unfettered control over the only property that matters in open wheel and b) setting fire to said property and holding the firemen back while it burns to the ground?

I give Mr. George all the credit in the world for sticking to his guns. Too bad he had them pointing at his own head.


Oh yeah...


I'm so convinced that this [Cleveland as a road/oval double] rumor supossedly heard by Miller is complete and utter BS that if anyone can post a link to anything confirming it in any way from any other source than RM (or site quoting from RM) I'll never post here (under any name) ever again. At the very best scenario somebody fed him this story to yank his chain to see if he would run with it.

I think it's just a crock put out there by Miller to stir up the masses. I think he gets a kick out of starting *hit storms. : )

I'll be waiting.

http://www.cleveland.com/autoracing/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1243624852243260.xml&coll=2

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2009/06/grand_prix_of_cleveland_auto_r.html

[ShiftingGears]

Finally he's gone. At least that gives the series a chance (however small) that someone competent will take over.

[downtowndeco]

BS. You changed my quote. Anyone can look it up by clicking on "Other posts by DD"

The context was whether the IRL was going to abandon the road circuit & only run an oval. The quote was;

"I'm so convinced that this rumor supossedly heard by Miller is complete and utter BS that if anyone can post a link to anything confirming it in any way from any other source than RM (or site quoting from RM) I'll never post here (under any name) ever again. At the very best scenario somebody fed him this story to yank his chain to see if he would run with it.

I think it's just a crock put out there by Miller to stir up the masses. I think he gets a kick out of starting *hit storms. : )

I'll be waiting."

Dirty pool man, dirty pool man, Changing someones quotes.....




Let's assume Tony was 100% right to shun the unprecedentedly high ratings, notoriety and depth of field the Indy 500 enjoyed during the CART era...does that make him a hero for a) holding unfettered control over the only property that matters in open wheel and b) setting fire to said property and holding the firemen back while it burns to the ground?

I give Mr. George all the credit in the world for sticking to his guns. Too bad he had them pointing at his own head.


Oh yeah...



http://www.cleveland.com/autoracing/plaindealer/index.ssf?/base/sports/1243624852243260.xml&coll=2

http://www.cleveland.com/sports/index.ssf/2009/06/grand_prix_of_cleveland_auto_r.html

[jimispeed]

It was amazing, had beautiful cars that the the drivers adored and had to muscle around to keep ahold of. The persona and tv coverage was second to none with lots of sponsorship. TG split that all up. The cars and drivers on the CART side remained great, but the sponsors and budgets slowly dwindled. TG never produced an amazing car for the drivers in the IRL.

It's not even close right now. What does the future hold?? Will they remember what it was?? What are we all watching for?? Do we remember what great open wheel was??

Maybe I should start watching the old CART/Champcar/Indy500 tapes/DVDs...

How about it folks?? Old school........with lots of Cosworths......and Penske

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hVVh8ae9yA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m1PKFZxjfgw

[Easy Drifter]

None of us really know what went on in TG's head when he started the IRL for Oval racing with US cars and Drivers.
Well, that sure has gone bye bye. Italian cars, Japanese badged engines and road/street courses. A little more successful on the driver front.
One thing to remember is that the Hulman/George family always ran Indy as they saw fit. It didn't matter who sanctioned it, the AAA (yes, I go back that far) USAC or CART it was run according to Hulman/George rules.
I have a feeling TG felt CART were getting strong enough that they just might say no to Indy only rules and also that TG wanted to make all racing conform to the the Indy rules.
There was more to it than that but I do think that influenced his decision to form the IRL.

[994ever]

Square brackets means an addition by the quoter. I DID NOT change your quote other than by adding that editorial comment, which IS NOT attributed to you. That said, ANYONE can go back and read the context, which is exactly what my editorial comment attributed it to be. You called Millers story complete bs. It WAS NOT. The story said a twin. Whether it did or not, there was obviously some merit to it and INDYCAR sources were quoted as saying it was true.

There was no need to change your quote....you stepped right in it yourself.


BS. You changed my quote. Anyone can look it up by clicking on "Other posts by DD"

The context was whether the IRL was going to abandon the road circuit & only run an oval. The quote was;

"I'm so convinced that this rumor supossedly heard by Miller is complete and utter BS that if anyone can post a link to anything confirming it in any way from any other source than RM (or site quoting from RM) I'll never post here (under any name) ever again. At the very best scenario somebody fed him this story to yank his chain to see if he would run with it.

I think it's just a crock put out there by Miller to stir up the masses. I think he gets a kick out of starting *hit storms. : )

I'll be waiting."

Dirty pool man, dirty pool man, Changing someones quotes.....

[SarahFan]

It's getting awful quiet in here. : ) Anyone have an answer for this question yet? It's one thing to say TG starting the IRL was wrong. But what should he have done differently, given the position CART put him in? Just wondering.....

Miller hit the nail on in his article this morning....


he should have been the keeper of the castle instead of trying to be king



why is that so hard for you to understand.......

[downtowndeco]

You're right. Anyone can go back and read the original article by Miller. The one that caused all of the furor. It made no reference what so ever to being a double header. It said that the IRL was going to ditch the road course & run only an oval, which turned out not to be true at all.

Go back to page one of that thread. Read the original article Miller wrote. If you can find a reference to a road course/oval combo please post it here. The original article. Not the story that appeared 3 weeks or a month later.



Square brackets means an addition by the quoter. I DID NOT change your quote other than by adding that editorial comment, which IS NOT attributed to you. That said, ANYONE can go back and read the context, which is exactly what my editorial comment attributed it to be. You called Millers story complete bs. It WAS NOT. The story said a twin. Whether it did or not, there was obviously some merit to it and INDYCAR sources were quoted as saying it was true.

There was no need to change your quote....you stepped right in it yourself.

[downtowndeco]

Yeah Miller. Mr. Unbiased. I ask you directly. What should TG have done after CC management dared him to start a series?

IMO They basically told him, we're moving in and taking over whether you like it or not. What should he have done?



Miller hit the nail on in his article this morning....


he should have been the keeper of the castle instead of trying to be king



why is that so hard for you to understand.......

[SarahFan]

Yeah Miller. Mr. Unbiased. I ask you directly. What should TG have done after CC management dared him to start a series?

IMO They basically told him, we're moving in and taking over whether you like it or not. What should he have done?

.22

clearly he should have ran hulman company and the speedway as he was charged to do...

by any standard his self imposed stewardship of AOWR was a failure

[downtowndeco]

I take that as a non answer.

The critics all seem to think TG should have never started the IRL. None of them have an answer though when you ask him what he should have done given the circumstances.

You're right. He was in charge of running the speedway. And one of the things he wanted to prevent was a boycott or strong arm tactics against the 500 by a series that was run by men who were short sighted and greedy. That all played out in the end (as TG predicted) when CC when out of business TWICE.

He was right all along.

I'll add this. To do it all over I'm sure everyone would take different approaches. Things did not turn out well for anyone. But sometimes life is full of messy situations that do not have clean cut answers. It's easy to look back and say, "TG should have done things differently". Well, sure. But CC should not have poked a finger in his chest either and dared him to start his own series either.



.22

clearly he should have ran hulman company and the speedway as he was charged to do...

by any standard his self imposed stewardship of AOWR was a failure

[SarahFan]

I take that as a non answer.

The critics all seem to think TG should have never started the IRL. None of them have an answer though when you ask him what he should have done given the circumstances.

You're right. He was in charge of running the speedway. And one of the things he wanted to prevent was a boycott or strong arm tactics against the 500 by a series that was run by men who were short sighted and greedy. That all played out in the end (as TG predicted) when CC when out of business TWICE.

He was right all along.


take it for whatever sits well with you

.22

[SarahFan]

its amazing to me how some folks have defended the creation of the IRL to the bitter end despite the fact the sport is clearly at its lowest point in its history......

thankfully the 'Split Era' has finnally ended....

it will be slow... and painfull i suspect... and as i have predicted for the past year....likely ownership and direction will change over the next 6 to 16 months...

and while it (AOWR) will likely never reach dizzying heights... the trek back towards relevance has began...


enjoy the race this weekend folks...


*and dd... put me back on ignore (like i was ever there)

[downtowndeco]

How about this time you add me to yours? : )

Enjoy the races.



*and dd... put me back on ignore (like i was ever there)

[SarahFan]

How about this time you add me to yours? : )

Enjoy the races.

naw.....you know what they say

laughter is the best medicine......and you provide a serios dosage

[downtowndeco]

I'm not saying that it turned out well for any of the parties involved. What I'm saying is that whenever someone asks, "OK. What should have TG done considering the circumstances?" that there is a deafening silence.

BTW. One of TG's main goals was to make sure that there is a full field in the 500 every May. Regardless of what else has happen that has been accompished anyway. 33 cars have started every May to a full (or near full house). It still stands as one of the truely great sporting events in the world, regardless of whether a race at Richmond gets a .22 or not.



take it for whatever sits well with you

.22

[SarahFan]

I'm not saying that it turned out well for any of the parties involved. What I'm saying is that whenever someone asks, "OK. What should have TG done considering the circumstances?" that there is a deafening silence.

BTW. One of TG's main goals was to make sure that there is a full field in the 500 every May. Regardless of what else has happen that has been accompished anyway. 33 cars have started every May to a full (or near full house). It still stands as one of the truely great sporting events in the world, regardless of whether a race at Richmond gets a .22 or not.

the reason it gets deafining silence is because he did.....anything after the fact is much like your stateing in a plain cold fact CART would have gone out of Biz etc.....despite there no proof whatsoever.....

we can speculate on what he should have done till out fingers bleed.... but the bottomline is a decede and half ago a race in michigan had more viewers than this years 500....regardless of 33 starters

[NickFalzone]

From the ratings posted earlier today, it becomes clear that TV-wise, both CART and the IRL were in the toilet by the end of the 90s. There was a steep dropoff from 95-99, and then things have dwindled moderately down from there. The one event, Indy, seems to have been least effected by the ratings dive. We're seeing ~6 ratings back in the mid 90s, and ~4 ratings in the late 00s for the 500. Yes, it has dropped off, but Indy has held MUCH better than the ratings of the series events. As a fan though, I would by far prefer to have the Series getting good ratings and Indy getting a moderate bump up. To see something like a Long Beach getting a 3 in 95, that's impressive and the sign of a very strong sport. In other words, I think that the severe focus on the Indy 500 HAS in fact kept that event attendance-wise and ratings-wise in pretty good shape, but it has done so at the extreme expense of the support series. Looking at the regular IRL ratings the last couple of years, it's clear that the series is a total afterthought and all the casual Indy Car fan really cares about is the 500. This is Tony's fault (and he might not have a problem with that). This to me is like if NASCAR had instead called themselves the Daytona Car series and then focused 90% of their yearly promotion on the Daytona race(s). Of course the general audience will then respond strongest to the Daytona event, perhaps at the severe expense of the other "series" events.

[downtowndeco]

Again. You can't tell us what TG should have done when CART backed him into a corner. You just keep repeating "The ratings are low the ratings are low". As a businessman, what would you have done in his situation? Until you put yourself in his shoes and offer a viable solution IMO your criticisim is very cheap, unfair & hollow.

Proof? CC was so poorly managed that they went out of business twice. Isn't that proof enough? They were going to be in trouble eventually anyway. Not to mention they could have raced in the 500 to please their sponsors (and some teams did) if they hadn't been so bullheaded. He didn't take the 500 from them. THEY NEVER OWNED IT! : )

I've got to go make some money. Later. : )


the reason it gets deafining silence is because he did.....anything after the fact is much like your stateing in a plain cold fact CART would have gone out of Biz etc.....despite there no proof whatsoever.....

we can speculate on what he should have done till out fingers bleed.... but the bottomline is a decede and half ago a race in michigan had more viewers than this years 500....regardless of 33 starters

[indycool]

This chichen/egg argument from 13 years ago can go on forever. It is what it is and the best part of it is that it's ONE series.

[SarahFan]

This chichen/egg argument from 13 years ago can go on forever. It is what it is and the best part of it is that it's ONE series.


it WAS one series before it was two.... so if the best part IS that its one series.... the the real question IS why was it ever 2?

[SarahFan]

They were going to be in trouble eventually anyway.


they were?

you keep repeating the same thing over and over with absolutely no proof... zip zero nada


good medicine

[SarahFan]

Again. You can't tell us what TG should have done )


he should have never started the IRL


is that not crystal clear?

I'll skip the .22 and go directly to 4.0... the lowest rated I500 in its history

[indycool]

Correction, Ken: I should have added the word AGAIN,

[Blancvino]

And one of the things he wanted to prevent was a boycott or strong arm tactics against the 500 by a series that was run by men who were short sighted and greedy.

You can say that with a straight face?

[SarahFan]

Correction, Ken: I should have added the word AGAIN,

sure... you can add it

doesn't change the validity of the question though does it

[Blancvino]

Again. You can't tell us what TG should have done when CART backed him into a corner.

Backed into a corner - I question that.

What should the guy have done? Hired some who had a clue and done anything but start the IRL.

Humble pie has a nasty taste but the money he was reaping covered the foulness.

He should have hated CART all the way to the bank!

Now all he has is his "Vision", racing team. A link to the offical TG Theme Song - http://www.last.fm/music/John+Mellencamp/_/Crumblin'+Down

[Blancvino]

This chichen/egg argument from 13 years ago can go on forever. It is what it is and the best part of it is that it's ONE series.

That is likey to fold up like a house of cards.

[SarahFan]

I am Indy
I am Indy
Hey
Hey
I am everything I want
I got everything I need
Know exactly what to do cause I am Indy
Hey
And I love the way I feel
To be me is something real cause I am Indy
I am Indy
Hey
I am everything I want
I got everything I need
Know exactly what to do cause I am Indy
Hey
And I love the way I feel
When I get behind the wheel
Cause I am Indy
I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey I am Indy
Hey

[fugariracing]

^^^ So sad but true for TG.

To him it was all about Indy, it only ever was about Indy. In the interest of protecting Indy, in his eyes, he wound up reaking catastrophic damage on all of AOWR by starting the IRL.

And the joke that the IRL has been and stood for since its inception in 1996, kept alive only by the Speedway's (family's) reserves and then the influx of Japanese engine yen and ex-CART teams, is now in its current pathetic state.

Indy is less relevant than it's ever been, ratings lower than they've ever been (3.9 this year and sub 0.7 for all others, down in each race bar Long Beach which was up .01 of a point to .52) and interest for the rest of what is the de facto sole major American open-wheel series waning for even the truest of diehards.

Sad but true.

[downtowndeco]

When the best answer you can up with is (basically) "I don't know. He should have done something different." that is IMO, a non answer. It is intellectually dishonest and a cop out.

Should he have done something different? Looking back at the way things turned out, yeah, probably. Everyone should have. But when I ask what that should have been point blank and no one can give me a straight, honest answer, well, that should tell everyone something right there. There was no one easy answer.

Hey forget it. To some of you CART will always be the Virgin Mary & TG Satan. The truth is of course, somewhere in the middle.

Cheers.





Backed into a corner - I question that.

What should the guy have done? Hired some who had a clue and done anything but start the IRL.

Humble pie has a nasty taste but the money he was reaping covered the foulness.

He should have hated CART all the way to the bank!

Now all he has is his "Vision", racing team. A link to the offical TG Theme Song - http://www.last.fm/music/John+Mellencamp/_/Crumblin'+Down

[fugariracing]

When the best answer you can up with is (basically) "I don't know. He should have done something different." that is IMO, a non answer. It is intellectually dishonest and a cop out.

Should he have done something different? Looking back at the way things turned out, yeah, probably. Everyone should have. But when I ask what that should have been point blank and no one can give me a straight, honest answer, well, that should tell everyone something right there. There was no one easy answer.

Hey forget it. To some of you CART will always be the Virgin Mary & TG Satan. The truth is of course, somewhere in the middle.

Cheers.

If he just wanted to be a team owner instead of get power-hungry, he could have started Vision Racing in 1995 or 1996 and been a team owner. Still could have been on the board, except not just as the point-person from IMS but a car owner with an interest in the future direction of the series.

[Easy Drifter]

He could also have done, as I previously pointed out, what the Hulman family had always done. Run Indy as they wanted. AAA, USAC and CART ran their series but had to run Indy under Hulman rules. Sure the cars were pretty much the same as the series but Indy often allowed other cars in that did not conform to the series rules.
Maybe CART would have howled but they would have run. They had for several years.
TG wanted to have a major say in how CART was run and when he didn't get his way took his ball and bat (Indy) and left.

[garyshell]

I'm not saying that it turned out well for any of the parties involved. What I'm saying is that whenever someone asks, "OK. What should have TG done considering the circumstances?" that there is a deafening silence.

Only because you ask the question and then put your fingers in your ears so as to not hear the answer like the one below.


clearly he should have ran hulman company and the speedway as he was charged to do...

Now, ignore mine too:

He should have continued to run the IMS and kept his hand out of trying to start a series. The whole concept was doomed to failure from the word go. Anyone with a lick of sense knew it meant the fracturing of the fan base and there would be no way for that to ever turn out well. As for the idea of CART saying they were going to march in and "take over", I call BS. That is YOUR interpretation of what was said. I don't think King George ever had any real fear of that as long as he held the key to the speedway. And yes that is MY interpretation of the events.

Gary

[-Helix-]

it WAS one series before it was two.... so if the best part IS that its one series.... the the real question IS why was it ever 2?

No, the question is what can we do to make sure there is never again more than 1 or less than 1.

Stop looking at the past, we have present issues to worry about.

[Jag_Warrior]

No, the question is what can we do to make sure there is never again more than 1 or less than 1.

Stop looking at the past, we have present issues to worry about.

"We"??? :D I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. But amigo, there's nothing that "we" can do.

[-Helix-]

"We"??? :D I'm sorry, I don't mean to laugh. But amigo, there's nothing that "we" can do.

I didn't say there was. I said worry about, not do something about.

Though we can make our opinions heard with our TV remotes and our money.

[downtowndeco]

CART never showed the Indy 500 the respect it deserved nor did they think it was truely as important as it turned out to be. Remember the US 500? Turning thier back on Indy for all of those years? It was those behaviours that make it clear that CART was serious about not wanting Tony to dictate to them. They wanted to show TG that they didn't need him, his speedway or his race. They were wrong.

I have no doubt in my mind that if push came to shove CART would have boycotted the 500 & left Tony in a jam. Tony was running IMS & was looking out for it's best interests. He was just doing his job. Protecting his speedway and his race. True, things didn't turn out the way anyone expected. But that is often the case in life. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can and make adjustments along the way. How did CART turn out? CCWS? Can Am? A1GP? It's not an easy business to be in.



Only because you ask the question and then put your fingers in your ears so as to not hear the answer like the one below.



Now, ignore mine too:

He should have continued to run the IMS and kept his hand out of trying to start a series. The whole concept was doomed to failure from the word go. Anyone with a lick of sense knew it meant the fracturing of the fan base and there would be no way for that to ever turn out well. As for the idea of CART saying they were going to march in and "take over", I call BS. That is YOUR interpretation of what was said. I don't think King George ever had any real fear of that as long as he held the key to the speedway. And yes that is MY interpretation of the events.

Gary

[Jag_Warrior]

No, you said, "what can we do", but I understand what you mean now. All I can do is wish 'em luck.

There are plenty of other racing series that have already taken the place of AOWR for me.

[Easy Drifter]

Note that I answered Downtowndeco's question but he ignored that.
He has a closed mind.
Why should TG have had any real say in what CART as a series did? He did not then have a team.
He controlled a track, certainly the most important one.
Remember at the time Penske also owned at least one track plus a team.
Other track owner/promoters were not trying to mold the series the way they thought it should be run, at least not by threats or starting breakaway series.
If TG had been content to do as the Hulman family had always done this mess could have been avoided.
Whatever, we now have what is left and unless we support it and try and convince others to do so we won't have anything!

[Bob Riebe]

If TG had been content to do as the Hulman family had always done this mess could have been avoided.

The Hulman family kicked CART out of Indy. CART sued to get back in.

[indycool]

Yrs, and that was 1979, long before TG was in charge, when IMS refused entries from CART owners who were on CART's board, and lost the suit. This didn't just start with TG...Jim Chapman and PPG held it together for a LONG time.

[garyshell]

CART never showed the Indy 500 the respect it deserved nor did they think it was truely as important as it turned out to be. Remember the US 500? Turning thier back on Indy for all of those years? It was those behaviours that make it clear that CART was serious about not wanting Tony to dictate to them. They wanted to show TG that they didn't need him, his speedway or his race. They were wrong.

I have no doubt in my mind that if push came to shove CART would have boycotted the 500 & left Tony in a jam. Tony was running IMS & was looking out for it's best interests. He was just doing his job. Protecting his speedway and his race. True, things didn't turn out the way anyone expected. But that is often the case in life. Sometimes you just have to do the best you can and make adjustments along the way. How did CART turn out? CCWS? Can Am? A1GP? It's not an easy business to be in.

Yes, I remember the US 500, do you remember 25-8? There is a linkage there. You tell me, who disrespected who with 25-8, which by the way occured BEFORE the US 500.

Once again Nostradamus tells us that CART would have boycotted the 500 as if it were a fact. Yawn.

Yep King George was protecting his race and every year since the crowds have gotten smaller for the month of may, the ratings have suffered, the number of entries has fallen. Yep he did a bang up job of protecting his race didn't he? You are right sometimes you have to do the best you can and make adjustments. Too bad King George let his own ego get in the way and never took that advice. How did CART turn out? Looks to me just about the same way the IRL is starting to turn out.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

CART may have showed a lack of respect to Tony George when he came to their meeting and wanted the Indy 500 race to have more prestige, but they always respected the race itself. But in his hellbent effort to raise the I500 in the eyes of open wheel racing, he diminished the race in fans eyes, which is reflected in the decreasing fan count at the last few years. TG forgot about the fans during the war, and even NASCAR knows to do that is not healthy.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't care what Tony THOUGHT he was doing, he didn't help the Month of May or the 500 one whit by starting the IRL. The whole idea to non-racing fans and people from the outside was so laughable that when it finally happened, the world was dumbfounded. Then Tony proceeded to dump large amounts of the Hulman fortune into propping it up until Penske and the like eventually realized they did need the 500. By that time, momentum was lost to NASCAR and the writing was on the wall.

People who want to defend Tony are just whistling past the graveyard of what his legacy will be.

Fact is, OW racing is a shadow of its former self in fans, TV ratings, sponsorship and manufacturer interest, and those facts are unshakable.

I take no pride in Tony being ousted, because I don't think having no figurehead is better than having a poor one. That said, if the Sisters and Mari were thinking in 1994, we never would have gotten to this point.

All those who defend Tony because he was "insulted" by CART should put on their big boy pants and realize this guy was a rich kid playing with someone else's money and he was the catalyst for the destruction of our sport.

[jimispeed]

I don't care what Tony THOUGHT he was doing, he didn't help the Month of May or the 500 one whit by starting the IRL. The whole idea to non-racing fans and people from the outside was so laughable that when it finally happened, the world was dumbfounded. Then Tony proceeded to dump large amounts of the Hulman fortune into propping it up until Penske and the like eventually realized they did need the 500. By that time, momentum was lost to NASCAR and the writing was on the wall.

People who want to defend Tony are just whistling past the graveyard of what his legacy will be.

Fact is, OW racing is a shadow of its former self in fans, TV ratings, sponsorship and manufacturer interest, and those facts are unshakable.

I take no pride in Tony being ousted, because I don't think having no figurehead is better than having a poor one. That said, if the Sisters and Mari were thinking in 1994, we never would have gotten to this point.

All those who defend Tony because he was "insulted" by CART should put on their big boy pants and realize this guy was a rich kid playing with someone else's money and he was the catalyst for the destruction of our sport.

:) Thanks Mark....

[Chaparral66]

I don't care what Tony THOUGHT he was doing, he didn't help the Month of May or the 500 one whit by starting the IRL. The whole idea to non-racing fans and people from the outside was so laughable that when it finally happened, the world was dumbfounded. Then Tony proceeded to dump large amounts of the Hulman fortune into propping it up until Penske and the like eventually realized they did need the 500. By that time, momentum was lost to NASCAR and the writing was on the wall.

People who want to defend Tony are just whistling past the graveyard of what his legacy will be.

Fact is, OW racing is a shadow of its former self in fans, TV ratings, sponsorship and manufacturer interest, and those facts are unshakable.

I take no pride in Tony being ousted, because I don't think having no figurehead is better than having a poor one. That said, if the Sisters and Mari were thinking in 1994, we never would have gotten to this point.

All those who defend Tony because he was "insulted" by CART should put on their big boy pants and realize this guy was a rich kid playing with someone else's money and he was the catalyst for the destruction of our sport.

I agree with just about all of this. I'm trying to avoid dwelling too much on the motives of the past, because now we have to live with the result, which is not very good and we have to do something about it. I'm betting Mari and the Sisters Three in 1994 were putting faith in their kid brother since he had a plan, since he may have had something like this in mind when he became CEO. They were going to give him his shot and see where it took them, since they all felt they had the trump card in The Indy 500. But in winning the battle against CART/Champ Car, they lost the war for the fans to NASCAR.

But I admit to being a bit dissapointed that now that he has what he wanted, TG fades. I don't know which is worse, TG abdicating, or Caribou Barbie resigning up there in Alaska. Both sure seemed to inidcate a lack of confidence in themselves and the future, just because they took some heat for their bad judgement.

[Bob Riebe]

or Caribou Barbie resigning up there in Alaska. Both sure seemed to inidcate a lack of confidence in themselves and the future, just because they took some heat for their bad judgement.
If you want to be a political hack and trash politicians start a political thread, keep this crap out of this area.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Tony leaving the scene now doens't bring me any joy. His time for leaving it was before he started the IRL. He may have had what seemed like good reasons at the time to him, but history has shown it was a bad plan of action.

Now he is gone, it leaves a vacuum that has to be filled by more than the board and some tenative reassurances from Mari Hulman.

We need a dynamic leader....

[Chaparral66]

If you want to be a political hack and trash politicians start a political thread, keep this crap out of this area.

Of course you're right, my bad, what was I thinking? Everyone knows there's no politics in racing.