Tony George resigned

[The instant classic]

i heard the news AGAIN that Tony George resigned his positions at CEO of Hulman & Co. and IMS Corp. today
sorry guys i dont have the links i heard this on some other indycar forums,
but i heard its posted on Curt Cavin Twitter i dont follow twitter so i dont know if its true?

[garyshell]

The Board of Directors of Hulman & Company and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway announced June 30 that a new management team comprised of veteran IMS executives W. Curtis Brighton and Jeffrey G. Belskus will head the Hulman-George companies effective July 1.

Brighton, currently executive vice president and chief legal counsel, will become president and CEO of Hulman & Company. Belskus, currently executive vice president and chief financial officer for the companies, will become president and CEO of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corporation.

They will replace Tony George, who will no longer serve as president and chief executive officer of the Hulman-George companies but will remain a board member of the Hulman-George companies.

"Our board had asked Tony to structure our executive staff to create efficiencies in our business structure and to concentrate his leadership efforts in the Indy Racing League," said Mari Hulman George, IMS chairman of the board. "He has decided that with the recent unification of open-wheel racing and the experienced management team IMS has cultivated over the years, now would be the time for him to concentrate on his team ownership of Vision Racing with his family and other personal business interests he and his family share.

"Tony will remain on the Board of Directors of all of our companies, and he will continue to work with the entire board to advance the interests of all of companies.
"Our family and the entire racing community are grateful to Tony for the leadership and direction he has provided since 1990. We are pleased that he will continue to be an important part of the Indy Racing League as a team owner and as a member of our Board of Directors, and we wish him every success."

Mrs. George underscored the confidence in the leadership of Belskus and Brighton, who both were hired by Tony George.

"Jeff and Curt have both been with the company for many years in positions of top leadership," Mrs. George said. "Tony, as well as the entire Board of Directors, has the utmost confidence in their capabilities. Both of these men have years of experience and leadership within our companies. In addition, each of our companies has effective presidential leadership, and that will remain in place."

Joie Chitwood is president and chief operating officer (COO) of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, LLC. Terry Angstadt is president of the commercial division of the Indy Racing League. Brian Barnhart is president of the competition division of the Indy Racing League. Charlie Morgan is president and COO of IMS Productions. Gary Morris is president and COO of Clabber Girl.

"These changes underscore our family's commitment going forward to all of our companies, especially our commitment to the growth of the Indy Racing League and the sport of open-wheel racing," Mrs. George said. "We believe the Hulman-George family's long stewardship of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, beginning in 1945, and our significant investment in the Speedway and in the IRL demonstrates that we have full confidence in all of our companies and that we intend to grow them in the future."


http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=14461

Gary

[Jonesi]

Just opened NascarNow on ESPN2 with the news.

[garyshell]

It does not say specifically anything about his role as the head of the IRL.

Gary

[The instant classic]

Gary
thx for posting it gary :)
i always hear the news from other forums but they never post links :p :

[garyshell]

Just posted on Indystar.com



By Curt Cavin
Posted: June 30, 2009
Tony George resigned his position as chief executive officer of Hulman & Co. and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corp. today, but he will remain on the board of the family’s organization.

He will be replaced by Curt Brighton (Hulman & Co.) and Jeff Belskus (IMS Corp.).

George, 49, became president and CEO of Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corp. in January of 1990 after the death of Joe Cloutier.

George brought NASCAR, Formula One and MotoGP to the Speedway, founded the IRL, oversaw the redevelopment of the facility and led the development of such safety initiatives as the SAFER barrier and the Delphi Safety Team, a group of medical personnel that travels to each Indy-car race. Last year, he was the driving force behind unification of the sport.

But he came under criticism from family members for his financial commitments, particularly the IRL — now in its 14th season — and Vision Racing, the team his stepson, Ed Carpenter, drives for. Last month, board members declined to continue funding the second Vision car that Ryan Hunter-Reay was driving.


http://www.indystar.com/article/20090630/LOCAL/90630049/Tony+George+resigns+as+CEO+of+IMS

Gary

[Lousada]

Shocking. I wonder where this will leave the IRL.


Last month, board members declined to continue funding the second Vision car that Ryan Hunter-Reay was driving.

Interesting tidbit.

[The instant classic]

Shocking. I wonder where this will leave the IRL.



Interesting tidbit.
i think this could be good for the IRL cuz now Tony can put 100% of his time into the IRL, but again is it to little to late? :mark:

[Lousada]

i think this could be good for the IRL cuz now Tony can put 100% of his time into the IRL, but again is it to little to late? :mark:

I'm afraid they have cut off the moneytrain. In TG's own words the IRL is not viable at this moment. Now he's gone from IMS he can't move money around anymore. Who knows how many cars and races are propped up?
At this moment the IRL has no future plan, no new car manufacturers, no titlesponsors, no new chassis and very few fans. This could be a quick end to the IRL...

[Lousada]

We are pleased that he will continue to be an important part of the Indy Racing League as a team owner and as a member of our Board of Directors, and we wish him every success."
Sounds like he's out of the IRL too.

[The instant classic]

I'm afraid they have cut off the moneytrain. In TG's own words the IRL is not viable at this moment. Now he's gone from IMS he can't move money around anymore. Who knows how many cars and races are propped up?
At this moment the IRL has no future plan, no new car manufacturers, no titlesponsors, no new chassis and very few fans. This could be a quick end to the IRL...
i was just thinking this afew mins ago, what if Tony doesnt get along with the new CEO of indy? wolud he ever say i wont race the indy 500 next year?

the all money he put into the IRL came from IMS, and i cant see him paying for the IRL out of his own pocket, with the ratings down and more fans talking about nascar on indycar forums now, i think yr right this could be the end of the IRL, i wolud be shocked to see them come back next year :(

[Lousada]

i was just thinking this afew mins ago, what if Tony doesnt get along with the new CEO of indy? wolud he ever say i wont race the indy 500 next year?


If I'm correct the new CEO's are the people who used to be directly below TG and even hired by him. So there won't be much of a change in direction of how things operate. I think this is more a case of grabbing control over the money flows?

By the way wouldn't it be ironic if the IRL decides to abandon the Indy500. Then we're right back in 1995, except nobody gives a damn anymore.

[Bob Riebe]

If I'm correct the new CEO's are the people who used to be directly below TG and even hired by him. So there won't be much of a change in direction of how things operate. I think this is more a case of grabbing control over the money flows?

By the way wouldn't it be ironic if the IRL decides to abandon the Indy500. Then we're right back in 1995, except nobody gives a damn anymore.
The Indianapolis 500 IS the IRL.

[Lousada]

The Indianapolis 500 IS the IRL.

There will be an Indy500 long after the IRL (I hope). The IRL is dropping ovals and is aiming abroad it seems. It won't be long before the Indy500 will have little connection with the IRL. If the IRL can even survive without the unlimited paychecks from IMS that is. So then what happens???

[methanolHuffer]

This is the part where the IRL get's sold for pennies on the dollar.
Or at least he'll try to hold out until January of next year for a better price, but will get nothing.

IMS will be fine. Even if weeds grow through the row of bricks, it will never be sold outside the family.

[disko]

why all the doom and gloom? Look, a lot of us are in business, and at the end of the day we are accountable for making money. Sometimes there is a need for a change at the top, but the show still continues.

Were in a crazy economic bullsh-t situation because of the greedy pukes on wall street. We just need to find different avenues of profitability for our businesses. If you don;t, you become complacent and the competition erodes your market share. If you were accountable to your shareholders, or as a stockholder, isn't this your mission statement to be profitable? How are the Hulman Companies any different?

the IRL will be around. They not going to be sold, and they are going to be racing next year.

[maximilian]

I always felt that the SECURE future of open wheel racing in the US would entail NASCAR either starting the "NASCAR Open Wheel Series" themselves, or... maybe now buying out the IRL, and making it the "NASCAR Indycar Series" - coupled with the massive NASCAR marketing engine, money, sponsors, track contracts, and brand recognition (that makes even something as silly as the Truck Series a success), it may well work!

[The instant classic]

I always felt that the SECURE future of open wheel racing in the US would entail NASCAR either starting the "NASCAR Open Wheel Series" themselves, or... maybe now buying out the IRL, and making it the "NASCAR Indycar Series" - coupled with the massive NASCAR marketing engine, money, sponsors, track contracts, and brand recognition (that makes even something as silly as the Truck Series a success), it may well work!
you gave me an idea, if nascar ever wanted Danica nows the time to get her, buy out the IRL

[timshag]

All I can say is where the hell is IndyCool when you need him?

Geeeeeeez!!!!

[FormerFF]

Well, that certainly vindicates Robin Miller.

[Lee Roy]

I always felt that the SECURE future of open wheel racing in the US would entail NASCAR either starting the "NASCAR Open Wheel Series" themselves, or... maybe now buying out the IRL, and making it the "NASCAR Indycar Series" - coupled with the massive NASCAR marketing engine, money, sponsors, track contracts, and brand recognition (that makes even something as silly as the Truck Series a success), it may well work!

Why would NASCAR want the IRL???

[Jag_Warrior]

Why would NASCAR want the IRL???

Hmm... same reason I bought another RX7: for parts. :D

[The instant classic]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/news/story?id=4298125
check that guys

[NickFalzone]

"We are pleased that he will continue to be an important part of the Indy Racing League as a team owner and as a member of our Board of Directors, and we wish him every success."

"Tony George, 49, had been president and CEO of the Speedway since 1990 and founded the IRL in 1994. He was asked to remain in charge of the IRL but declined."

What everyone thought was that Tony would lose IMS leadership, but keep IRL leadership. Now it appears that all he has left is a chair on the board at IMS, and his Vision racing team. So who is heading up the IRL now? And there's a lot of people that call this the end, or the beginning of the end of the IRL. Maybe that's the case. On the other hand, maybe new leadership is what this league needed to survive.

This is what the press release says, but it doesn't really clarify things:

"Joie Chitwood is president and chief operating officer (COO) of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, LLC. Terry Angstadt is president of the commercial division of the Indy Racing League. Brian Barnhart is president of the competition division of the Indy Racing League. Charlie Morgan is president and COO of IMS Productions. Gary Morris is president and COO of Clabber Girl."

[call_me_andrew]

Why would NASCAR want the IRL???

Maybe the same reason that they wanted Grand Am.

Whatever that reason is.

[NickFalzone]

The claim is that NASCAR bought Grand Am to split up sports car racing fanbase and prevent ALMS from becoming popular and competing with NASCAR. I can't imagine any scenario where ALMS would potentially be a threat to NASCAR, but that's what I've heard.

[gloomyDAY]

Well, that certainly vindicates Robin Miller.Yes, we went over this a few weeks ago.

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=133417&highlight=robin+miller

[peasant]

The claim is that NASCAR bought Grand Am to split up sports car racing fanbase and prevent ALMS from becoming popular and competing with NASCAR. I can't imagine any scenario where ALMS would potentially be a threat to NASCAR, but that's what I've heard.

With the IRL they got someone to do it for them?

[Lousada]

Why would NASCAR want the IRL???

- Indy 500
- Reasonably established drivers and teams
- International exposure, outside North America still more people know and watch the IRL compared to NASCAR.
- Eliminate the competition forever
- Because they can.

Just guessing.

[Lousada]

IMS will be fine. Even if weeds grow through the row of bricks, it will never be sold outside the family.

You sure about that? The ones pro-speedway are TG and Mari Hulman-George. The sisters don't seem to care one way or the other. From their actions it looks like they want their share of the inheritence. It wouldn't be the first family company that gets split/sold when the indifferent offspring gets power.

[markabilly]

1.All

[markabilly]

:( The replacements are all people who have been there years, and unless they were very strongly disagreeing with TG, things will not change much, except with TG gone, the money may flow very differently.

Barnhardt whose efforts contributed to further dying of fan interest due to lack of passing, is still there.

Money flow is not the big question---obviously just an Indy 500, by itself, will not survive with the current cars and sponsors...and especailly with the way TV and motor racing has evolved here in the USA

Who is going to be able to afford and race a team solely for one race only per year and do it well, as well as keep fan interest up, given the nascar competition for sponsors and TV revenue (and accompanying constant EXPOSURE to the public)----I do not see the IRL surviving or the Indy 500 surviving as a one race event, in the present format of an open wheel race.

In the 60's and even 70's that happenned (some teams such as Lotus, Eagle, mcLaren showing up for the 500 only) because of HUGE pot of money for winners, and the television sponsor market was so different--television only had Indy 500 as the big event, with some small time competiton from the Daytona 500. That was it.

Today much different, no HUGE pot of money, nascar on TV every weekend, big attendance at Indy nascar race that rivals the 500 (more dilution of the mystique of the Indy 500---and of all places, nascar at Indy???)

Relatives involved who may "want my money now" and could care less about the race.....

Someone running "clabber girl" now in charge????

All in all, while i am not a fan of TG, although I appreciate his great efforts to bring F1 back to the USA, TG was about it for OW racing. Although some may say it was all his fault things got so bad-nevertheless, he has become about all there is, so this departure is further bad news for OW racing in the USA

Sort of like, for whatever reason, one is stuck with some poor horse, so you shoot the only horse you got, thinking that will fix the problems, well, after shooting the horse, what are you going to ride? In this case, there are now two faces for OWR in the usa, TG and Danica, in the mind of the public.

And if Danica jumps to somewhere else, as she may do to keep her sonsorship and fan interest up........... :( :(

[Lee Roy]

- Indy 500.

NASCAR already has a race on Memorial Day. It get's roughly the same TV ratings as the Indy 500. And the Indy 500 ain't what it used to be . . . . not by a long shot.


- Reasonably established drivers and teams.

NASCAR already has Penske and Ganassi. The rest aren't worth having. NASCAR still gets more competitors to show up for Cup races than they have starting spots.


- International exposure, outside North America still more people know and watch the IRL compared to NASCAR.

International popularity is an Indy Car fan fantasy to compesate for having very little popularity here in the US. I've heard this nonsense many times before, but have never seen any proof.


- Eliminate the competition forever.

What competition?


- Because they can.

They can also pile up stacks of hundred dollar bills in the parking lot and set them on fire, but that doesn't mean that they will.

[maximilian]

Why would NASCAR want the IRL???
To further expand their chokehold on motor racing in America in general. And, if properly promoted through their marketing machinery, it could well lead to a resurgence of open wheel racing and add to their profits. Once there is a successful NASCAR Indy Series in place, any other open wheel series in America would have a hard time starting up and competing.

If they play their cards right, they could also draw in an increasing international audience, people who like open wheel racing, but didn't quite warm up to the very "American" kind of stock car racing. I think that a well-managed and promoted NASCAR Indy Series could quickly become the counter-weight to F1 internationally that CART once almost used to be. Perhaps drivers like Montoya, Villeneuve, Allmendinger, Carpentier, Franchitti, Papis, Stewart, Speed, R. Gordon, and others who already defected from open wheel racing to NASCAR would be interested in racing there instead of the stock cars - or both (a la Sprint Cup racers in the Bush Series)...

[Lee Roy]

To further expand their chokehold on motor racing in America in general. And, if properly promoted through their marketing machinery, it could well lead to a resurgence of open wheel racing and add to their profits. Once there is a successful NASCAR Indy Series in place, any other open wheel series in America would have a hard time starting up and competing.

If they play their cards right, they could also draw in an increasing international audience, people who like open wheel racing, but didn't quite warm up to the very "American" kind of stock car racing. I think that a well-managed and promoted NASCAR Indy Series could quickly become the counter-weight to F1 internationally that CART once almost used to be. Perhaps drivers like Montoya, Villeneuve, Allmendinger, Carpentier, Franchitti, Papis, Stewart, Speed, R. Gordon, and others who already defected from open wheel racing to NASCAR would be interested in racing there instead of the stock cars - or both (a la Sprint Cup racers in the Bush Series)...

Face it, most of you AOWR fans now see that with IMS/Hulman-George family turning off the money spigot to the keep the IRL afloat, the only thing you have left to hope for is that NASCAR will take pity and try to keep this unsustainable form of racing afloat. Read my lips: IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!


And, if properly promoted . . . .

Promotion isn't the problem. It's the product.

Blaming "poor promotion" for AOWR's ills is like liberals blaming everything on corporations and conservatives blaming everything on the "liberal media".

[markabilly]

To further expand their chokehold on motor racing in America in general. And, if properly promoted through their marketing machinery, it could well lead to a resurgence of open wheel racing and add to their profits. Once there is a successful NASCAR Indy Series in place, any other open wheel series in America would have a hard time starting up and competing.

If they play their cards right, they could also draw in an increasing international audience, people who like open wheel racing, but didn't quite warm up to the very "American" kind of stock car racing. I think that a well-managed and promoted NASCAR Indy Series could quickly become the counter-weight to F1 internationally that CART once almost used to be. Perhaps drivers like Montoya, Villeneuve, Allmendinger, Carpentier, Franchitti, Papis, Stewart, Speed, R. Gordon, and others who already defected from open wheel racing to NASCAR would be interested in racing there instead of the stock cars - or both (a la Sprint Cup racers in the Bush Series)...



As a very very big fan of open wheel racing, I pray you are right......

:love:



Face it, most of you AOWR fans now see that with IMS/Hulman-George family turning off the money spigot to the keep the IRL afloat, the only thing you have left to hope for is that NASCAR will take pity and try to keep this unsustainable form of racing afloat. Read my lips: IT AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!



Promotion isn't the problem. It's the product.

Blaming "poor promotion" for AOWR's ills is like liberals blaming everything on corporations and conservatives blaming everything on the "liberal media".

Unfortunately probably right- it aint gonna happen :down: :bigcry:

unfortunately there was a moment in time when things might have been different circa late 1980's, but once the split happenned, it was just a matter of time until kaput............promotion at this point is not going to help without the product, and when the only product is danica....well she does do these great commercials and she could do them just as easy racing nascar, and those boys would love more of those shower go daddy commercials, fur sur nuff..... :rolleyes:

bu the real question is what will starter do without a forum to dictate to?

[nigelred5]

i was just thinking this afew mins ago, what if Tony doesnt get along with the new CEO of indy? wolud he ever say i wont race the indy 500 next year?

the all money he put into the IRL came from IMS, and i cant see him paying for the IRL out of his own pocket, with the ratings down and more fans talking about nascar on indycar forums now, i think yr right this could be the end of the IRL, i would be shocked to see them come back next year :(

He's stepped down from the league as well as the track. He's now somewhere between Dayle Coyne and Conquest. Don't let the door hitcha Tony.

Nascar buy the IRL? The same NASCAR that has two manufacturers leaving one series altogether and possibly shutting down the truck series due to lack of sponsorship, all three manufacturers pulling back to only technical support in both lower national series and barely more than that in CUP? Yeah, they bought out the GRand Am, but the family already had a huge hand in the series to begin with. The same family that is totally screwing up AMA racing ? The same one currently run by yet another village idiot? It is certainly in vastly better shape than the IRL, but all ain't so rosy in Daytona.

[markabilly]

Don't let the door hitcha Tony.
you remind me of the good captain ahab in Moby Dick, celebrating the demise of all we got left to live for, but being pulled down with the rest of the ship...

ask not for whom the bell tolls, it tolls for you

not only may it be the kiss od death for AOWR in the USA, without him, there will be no return to america of F1, and for me that was the one saving grace of Tony, loved to hear the shreik of a real racing engine echoed off the stands at Indy, and not the broke muffler, near nascar sound of IRL---(first time I heard it I commented he needs to get off the racing line so when he blows, he will not f*** it up for everyone else and stop the qing at indy [first dayQing at Indy], only to have my ignorance pointed out to me) but now, with him gone and benire's greed, I do not see f1 returning to the usa anywhere, until after Bernie is dead and gone, assuming it does not get all screwed up worse than it is now.

as for a possible rebuild of the "product" as to its absence as so astutely pointed out by Lee Roy, well my response is the product can be rebuilt, but it will take a long time, perhaps with ten to twenty years of hard work and very good luck, maybe we will see some good stuff.......but

[Chris R]

I'm afraid LeeRoy has some VERY valid points.....

[SarahFan]

All I can say is where the hell is IndyCool when you need him?

Geeeeeeez!!!!

well....when the money dries up and the undefendable is clearly undefendable...

[nigelred5]

I agree there are huge question marks with the official announcement of his departure from IMS management and with it, what amounted to his imbezzlement of family funds to support his quest for dominance of the Open wheel scene in the US. but he's gone, it's done, Who needs him as a lowly team owner of a two bit race team? I could care less if Vision Racing under his leadership is in the 500 next year. With no control of the IRL or IMS, who is he to sponsors? All I can hope for is they see the light and replace Barnhart ASAP and bring in someone like Humpy Wheeler to run the speedway.

[SarahFan]

going thru this whole mess....twice....first slowly as a CC/Cart fan.....and now at a turtles pace as an IRL is painful

[SarahFan]

but then there is the bright side..... this weekends ratings should be double as all the CC fans tune in now that ***** is no longer in charge...

right..!!!..????

[Pat Wiatrowski]

but then there is the bright side..... this weekends ratings should be double as all the CC fans tune in now that ***** is no longer in charge...

right..!!!..????

NO! I will still not tune in to that crap!

[SarahFan]

NO! I will still not tune in to that crap!

ok ok ok... double -1

:)

[FIAT1]

Finally some good news!

[Rex Monaco]

but then there is the bright side..... this weekends ratings should be double as all the CC fans tune in now that FTG is no longer in charge...

right..!!!..????

I still can't force myself to watch a Honda spec series, even if I do like a couple of the drivers and many of the tracks. And I've tried, really I have.

I think this vindicates those of us who have said for many years, that Tony George is not a visionary nor is he some great business leader. He was just a spoiled rich kid who kicked all his playmates out of the sandbox.

So can we overcome all of his poor decision making and fix it? Or must the IRL fail too for this failed chapter of AOWR to be truly ended, before it can start again with a fresh vision?

I vote for IMSA to control AOWR racing. Leave NASCAR out of it.

[methanolHuffer]

You sure about that? The ones pro-speedway are TG and Mari Hulman-George. The sisters don't seem to care one way or the other. From their actions it looks like they want their share of the inheritence. It wouldn't be the first family company that gets split/sold when the indifferent offspring gets power.

You're right. The squabbling amongst heirs does get more ugly when there's large amounts to fight over.
I guess the crown jewel of this whole AOW strife has always been that place.

But as it is now, the track will probably always be there. And if it ends up in the hands of a different set of owners, maybe that would be better in the long run.

If there is an interest in keeping it an open wheel race, who knows.

[garyshell]

Finally some good news!


What is good about it other than "King" George is gone? Now what's left? Careful what you wish for. As I said earlier, I would have relished in his demise 14, 10, 3 years ago. But now I have real fears about ANY AOWR beyond this fall. Maybe you are willing to cut off your nose despite your face, but I hate the prospect of only NASCAR being left on TV with the occasional IMSA and GrandAm bones throw to us.

Gary

[garyshell]

I vote for IMSA to control AOWR racing. Leave NASCAR out of it.

And just where, pray tell, do you see the $$$ coming from?

Gary

[Gluaistean]

I am guilty of being one of those who wanted the IRL to fail and ChampCar to survive. Everything about the IRL irritated me from Arute to George to the hypocrisy of the "vision" to the jumping ship of Ganassi and Penske and the late bolt of Fernandez a couple of days before the season opener.

I feel sad for the Dale Coyne's and the Conquest and HVM teams of the CC era. The LuczoDragons and Sarah Fisher's of the IRL. Passionate about racing and doing their utmost to get a car on-track. They always seem to manage a sponsor or two and that is nice to see the sidepods full. Alas, it is never enough money to keep the car on-track for the year as is evidenced when they go to Indy and become associate sponsors, IE, Dad's Root Beer.

I can't see the series staying alive past this year. It is not a desire of mine for it to fail. I was hoping that a new car and engine would be the catalyst to generate much needed publicity. I can't see that occurring now. I have a fear the season not even end.

Time for KK, Penske and Ganassi to get together and reform CC. Buy the cars back from this Green racing (sic) and start from scratch. (wishful thinking).

[Bob Riebe]

I always felt that the SECURE future of open wheel racing in the US would entail NASCAR either starting the "NASCAR Open Wheel Series" themselves, or... maybe now buying out the IRL, and making it the "NASCAR Indycar Series" - coupled with the massive NASCAR marketing engine, money, sponsors, track contracts, and brand recognition (that makes even something as silly as the Truck Series a success), it may well work!
Outside of throwing money at it, there is NOTHING about NASCAR that would be better than what exists now.
NASCAR is what Bill France built, PERIOD.
GARRA is run by the NASCAR concern and was create by the NASCAR concern and it is as pathetic as the IMSA.

The France boy has to worry about throwing money at NASCAR and is NOT going to pee away millions on the IRL, if he did he is a bigger arrogant assinine fool than T. George.

[The instant classic]

He's stepped down from the league as well as the track. He's now somewhere between Dayle Coyne and Conquest. Don't let the door hitcha Tony.

Nascar buy the IRL? The same NASCAR that has two manufacturers leaving one series altogether and possibly shutting down the truck series due to lack of sponsorship, all three manufacturers pulling back to only technical support in both lower national series and barely more than that in CUP? Yeah, they bought out the GRand Am, but the family already had a huge hand in the series to begin with. The same family that is totally screwing up AMA racing ? The same one currently run by yet another village idiot? It is certainly in vastly better shape than the IRL, but all ain't so rosy in Daytona.

yeah i heard late lastnight he was gone from the IRL too :eek:

whoever takes over the IRL and IMS i hope they make the track and series bigger and better, just to show Tony that he had no clue, but again whoever does that really needs deep pockets, so much to fix in the IRL right now, how it woludnt shock me if Tony shut down Vision Racing and left the IRL, fans dont want him, and now other teams dont have to kiss*** to Tony cuz now hes just a car owner,

yeah i heard the truck series might shut down, witch is to bad cuz i really enjoy the trucks, i was talking with my gf about that lastnight on the phone she even said, NASCAR could shut down the trucks and NNS but out the IRL and have "the NASCAR open wheel series" and how weird that sounds,
but im with you NASCAR is losing alot too, i cant see NASCAR buying them

[Bob Riebe]

I am guilty of being one of those who wanted the IRL to fail and ChampCar to survive. Everything about the IRL irritated me from Arute to George to the hypocrisy of the "vision" to the jumping ship of Ganassi and Penske and the late bolt of Fernandez a couple of days before the season opener.

I feel sad for the Dale Coyne's and the Conquest and HVM teams of the CC era. The LuczoDragons and Sarah Fisher's of the IRL. Passionate about racing and doing their utmost to get a car on-track. They always seem to manage a sponsor or two and that is nice to see the sidepods full. Alas, it is never enough money to keep the car on-track for the year as is evidenced when they go to Indy and become associate sponsors, IE, Dad's Root Beer.

I can't see the series staying alive past this year. It is not a desire of mine for it to fail. I was hoping that a new car and engine would be the catalyst to generate much needed publicity. I can't see that occurring now. I have a fear the season not even end.

Time for KK, Penske and Ganassi to get together and reform CC. Buy the cars back from this Green racing (sic) and start from scratch. (wishful thinking).
Why so you can watch it go belly-up again?

[Bob Riebe]

And just where, pray tell, do you see the $$$ coming from?

Gary
Hear-hear, all they have to do is check how much IMSA pays and that idea looks rather foolish quickly.

[Bob Riebe]

Maybe the same reason that they wanted Grand Am.

Whatever that reason is.
Money from NASCAR started Grand Am. (GARRA)
It was ALWAYS controlled by the France family pocket-book.

[Chaparral66]

CART/Champ Car went away because most billionaires like Kevin Kalkhoven are basically cheap, and he couldn't see spending any more of his own money trying to compete with Tony George (being a rich exception) and the IRL, TG only too willing to go through his family fortune at IMS hellbent on bringing down CC. Who's to say Penske, Ganassi, and Kalkhoven couldn't do it right this time? With all three working together, they could be just what AOWR needs to get back to viability. If they could keep their egos in check, that is...

[methanolHuffer]

Grand Am cars (DP) are an abomination. They hobbled the GT2 911s with weight and air inlet restrictions so they wouldn't beat the snot out of the premier cars. Not trying to get off topic, just saying that's what the governing body of Grand Am is all about. FAKE.

There is nobody that has the money (and sense) that will buy the IRL. The rich kid's experiment may not have proved much.

[Old3Fan]

Well Robin Miller got it right..........................AGAIN. I think open wheel is done for good now. Road racing is where it is. Better, teams, better cars, better drivers and best of all better racing. Old3Fan, one of the 1st 100 Forum Members signing off. Been a nice run. Bye!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jimispeed]

And to think, that KK sold this guy absolutely everything, including CART/Champcars historical archives???

Will there be another series that gives us all we long for? The Champcar website still exists!! Has someone been waiting in the wings??

Leaving the name, the IRL was an omen in itself. Because of what it stands for, I could never refer to this series as that. That is why I always use the term "Indycar"........


Unification should have started with an all new series from the ground up. Using the best of both series.

There have been some good races! But, not nearly enough.

KK, and Champcar should have designed this with the Indycar series years ago, and spent the time building a series that would remain the greatest fans would ever see. Instead both series let the timer run completely out and now try to succeed on a series that was already a failure, "except for Indy, and even that race is a shell of its former self"....

Could've been, Should've been.

It is what it is.......which isn't enough IMO
It's an embarassment to all of those legendary drivers from long ago.

Test the DP01 on an oval, switch to honda turbos, and do this whole thing right!! Or somebody start over!

wishful thinking

[MDS]

It's too early to say what, if any, impact this decision will have on the fate of the IRL. To me getting rid of Tony George was only the first step, and my first reaction was that it was a decision that came 14 years too late. My second reaction is that changing the chief officer without cleaning out his staff is probably a useless jesture. George had people who were dedicated to carrying out his vision. If you're replacing him because his vision didn't work you need to put a new staff in charge, and probably a new injection of capitol. You need someone who can take what works and trim what doesn't and give them the resources they need.

Ideally I think Humpy Wheeler or Tony Gossage should take over the speedway. Vicky O'Coner should be the new CEO of the IRL and Tony Cotman should be the new competition director.

[SarahFan]

I think everyone is a little too gloomy. Not long ago many posters were saying the key to success was getting rid if TG. What's changed?

The current owners still have a substantial investment in Indy. You can't run the 500 as a stand alone event with out a supporting series to keep the teams, drivers, etc. occupied for 11 months of the year. You'd have 5 cars show up that way.

I see 4 options at this point:
1) Keep the IRL or similar series going to rebuild on.
2) Replace the Indycars on Memorial Day with (fill in blank).
3) Construct a housing development with shopping and a nice attached golf course. (Cash out and run.)
4) Sell at bargain rates to someone willing to try running the series (after spending a year asking way too much for the product and no takers).

I haven't a clue which of the possibilities rank where over the others. All is not quite lost yet, hang in and see what happens.


no doom and gloom here.... i believe its the first step towrds reorganizarion of the way the league is owned and operated...

i just dont expect it to happen swiftly is all

[champcarray]

My initial reaction: embarrassment. How much lower can AOWR fall? While I'm happy to see TG kicked out, I'm downright embarrassed by the mess he left behind. I hope someone has the gall and the money to try to rebuild thsi series into something worthy of respect.

[Jag_Warrior]

http://www.superspeedway.com/gif/camera/logcart.gif

So once again we learn, unless something is truly broken, keep your mutha f###in' hands out of the engine bay, m'kay?! :dozey:

[Blancvino]

why all the doom and gloom? Look, a lot of us are in business, and at the end of the day we are accountable for making money. Sometimes there is a need for a change at the top, but the show still continues.

Were in a crazy economic bullsh-t situation because of the greedy pukes on wall street. We just need to find different avenues of profitability for our businesses. If you don;t, you become complacent and the competition erodes your market share. If you were accountable to your shareholders, or as a stockholder, isn't this your mission statement to be profitable? How are the Hulman Companies any different?

the IRL will be around. They not going to be sold, and they are going to be racing next year.

I'll have what he's smoking.

[Blancvino]

but then there is the bright side..... this weekends ratings should be double as all the CC fans tune in now that ***** is no longer in charge...

right..!!!..????


You are kidding, right?

[Blancvino]

I think everyone is a little too gloomy. Not long ago many posters were saying the key to success was getting rid if TG. What's changed?

No money!

[Anubis]

Ditch some (not all) of the ovals, flog the lot to Bernie, mix in the declined 2010 F1 teams, add some races in Mexico and Brazil and have a sort of "F1 Americas" series with Indy as showpiece.

Or not.

[gm99]

Ditch some (not all) of the ovals, flog the lot to Bernie, mix in the declined 2010 F1 teams, add some races in Mexico and Brazil and have a sort of "F1 Americas" series with Indy as showpiece.

Or not.


Better still, sell it to Max Mosley - he might well find himself short of a racing series he can mess up in October, he's got the money and I am sure he'll be able to find some German-speaking hookers in Brazil (lots of Nazis fled to South America after WWII, I'm told...). Also, Indy Car teams won't put up too much of a fight against budget caps...

[NickFalzone]

If and when the Hulman George family says "we're no longer supporting the IRL", then that is essentially the end of this series as we know it. Yes, it could be bought by a private investor(s) at that point and continue or go in a different direction... but that's unlikely. In the mean time, the Hulman George family has simply said that Tony no longer has access to the purse strings, and we want to continue the growth of the IRL. Since that's what they've said, I take it that the IRL will be around in a reduced financial capacity for several more years, minimally through the IMS Centennial in 2012. The scenario may well be smaller fields (16-18), less tracks (12-16) and a worse on track product. On the other hand, things may NOT change all that much at all from what we've seen this season. That is not something that excites me, but there's been NO indication that HG is ready to assist in the IRL going out of operation. So for better or worse, it will continue in it's slowly dwindling ways for years to come.

[MDS]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a move by the five or so key owners to buy the IRL and return to a CART model.

I've been hearing some speculation that KK, Penske, Hass, Andretti and Green have been considering banding together and making an offer for the series with the belief the could return it to profitability and secure their sport's future. This would relieve the Hulman-George family of an liability they don't want to run, and allow them to focus on the speedway and their other business.

All of this is rumors, but if my source is right, and he was apparently off by a couple of hundred miles about the Brazil race, it could be a done deal by the off season, Supposedly the announcement of a new name and title sponsor could come by December or Janurary.

[markabilly]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a move by the five or so key owners to buy the IRL and return to a CART model.

I've been hearing some speculation that KK, Penske, Hass, Andretti and Green have been considering banding together and making an offer for the series with the belief the could return it to profitability and secure their sport's future. This would relieve the Hulman-George family of an liability they don't want to run, and allow them to focus on the speedway and their other business.

All of this is rumors, but if my source is right, and he was apparently off by a couple of hundred miles about the Brazil race, it could be a done deal by the off season, Supposedly the announcement of a new name and title sponsor could come by December or Janurary.
they are crazy unless they lock in the indy or simply buy the track outright and do it their way

[SarahFan]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a move by the five or so key owners to buy the IRL and return to a CART model.

I've been hearing some speculation that KK, Penske, Hass, Andretti and Green have been considering banding together and making an offer for the series with the belief the could return it to profitability and secure their sport's future. This would relieve the Hulman-George family of an liability they don't want to run, and allow them to focus on the speedway and their other business.

All of this is rumors, but if my source is right, and he was apparently off by a couple of hundred miles about the Brazil race, it could be a done deal by the off season, Supposedly the announcement of a new name and title sponsor could come by December or Janurary.

hmmm... where have we heard that before

[chuck34]

I wouldn't be shocked if there was a move by the five or so key owners to buy the IRL and return to a CART model.

I've been hearing some speculation that KK, Penske, Hass, Andretti and Green have been considering banding together and making an offer for the series with the belief the could return it to profitability and secure their sport's future. This would relieve the Hulman-George family of an liability they don't want to run, and allow them to focus on the speedway and their other business.

All of this is rumors, but if my source is right, and he was apparently off by a couple of hundred miles about the Brazil race, it could be a done deal by the off season, Supposedly the announcement of a new name and title sponsor could come by December or Janurary.

Sounds like De Ja Vu all over again.

Why does there have to be some sort of Titanic change in things? I can't see anything major working right now, it's just not the right time. Let the new guys carry on, and tweak things their own way. And for God's sake, do NOT let the inmates run the asylum again. That is (and always was) doomed to failure.

[MDS]

hmmm... where have we heard that before

Yeah, I know I've said that before, but as I and other posters have said, a change in ownership/management structure was coming, and well it's here.

If you think this was voluntary, or that the team owners had nothing to do with this you're being a little naive.

[SarahFan]

Yeah, I know I've said that before, but as I and other posters have said, a change in ownership/management structure was coming, and well it's here.

If you think this was voluntary, or that the team owners had nothing to do with this you're being a little naive.

huh?

[Bob Riebe]

Sounds like De Ja Vu all over again.

Why does there have to be some sort of Titanic change in things? I can't see anything major working right now, it's just not the right time. Let the new guys carry on, and tweak things their own way. And for God's sake, do NOT let the inmates run the asylum again. That is (and always was) doomed to failure.
OH, you mean you want them to emulate the band on the Titanic!

[Jonesi]

Sounds like De Ja Vu all over again.

Why does there have to be some sort of Titanic change in things? I can't see anything major working right now, it's just not the right time. Let the new guys carry on, and tweak things their own way. And for God's sake, do NOT let the inmates run the asylum again. That is (and always was) doomed to failure.

Because even though expenses were trim/cut years ago, the IRL is probably still losing $20-30mil a year and the family appears to no longer be willing to put that money out.

[Jag_Warrior]

And for God's sake, do NOT let the inmates run the asylum again. That is (and always was) doomed to failure.

Without just speaking about the Indy 500, the time that the inmates were in control of the asylum was the only major period of success that AOWR has had (in my lifetime). Yes, it eventually failed. But only after roughly 15 years of success. Prior to that, USAC was a joke... more like a semi-pro league. And the IRL is still looking for its first year of success. Its only consistency has been in its failure, and now it's drug the Indy 500 down with it.

What is the right way going forward? I really have no idea. Who knew it would get this bad?! It's beginning to look like the horse's leg is broken, and Farmer Johnson is talking about fetching his shotgun. But one thing that we do know is that sponsors don't like instability (proven by CART in its last days).

[Jag_Warrior]

Because even though expenses were trim/cut years ago, the IRL is probably still losing $20-30mil a year and the family appears to no longer be willing to put that money out.

Yes, indeed. I can only repeat my words from the past 8 or 9 years here: costs/expenses only constitute one side of the business equation. Unless you have a plan to enhance the perceived value of your product, you're wasting your time. To use a phrase from several years ago (Robin Miller?), if you're selling onion gum, it doesn't really matter how low you can get the production costs... no one wants to buy it. And so, here we are.

[dataman1]

Chorus from "American Pie"

So bye-bye, miss American pie (TG).
Drove my Chevy to the levee (corporate sponsorship),
But the levee was dry.
And them good old boys (nascar) were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
Singin’, "this will be the day that I (they) die.
"this will be the day that I (they) die."

[Lee Roy]

Chorus from "American Pie"

So bye-bye, miss American pie (TG).
Drove my Chevy to the levee (corporate sponsorship),
But the levee was dry.
And them good old boys (nascar) were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
Singin’, "this will be the day that I (they) die.
"this will be the day that I (they) die."

To sing about the IRL, they would first have to even care about the IRL. They don't.

[champcarray]

Speaking of songs, I was watching a documentary about Garriosn Keillor last night. You don't have to be a regular listener to his Prairie Home Companion radio show to know how the following quote applies to TG's situation: "It's tiime for a slice of Be-Bop-A-Re-Bop Rhubarb Pie, the pie that washes away the taste of shame and humiliation."

[chuck34]

Without just speaking about the Indy 500, the time that the inmates were in control of the asylum was the only major period of success that AOWR has had (in my lifetime). Yes, it eventually failed. But only after roughly 15 years of success. Prior to that, USAC was a joke... more like a semi-pro league. And the IRL is still looking for its first year of success. Its only consistency has been in its failure, and now it's drug the Indy 500 down with it.

What is the right way going forward? I really have no idea. Who knew it would get this bad?! It's beginning to look like the horse's leg is broken, and Farmer Johnson is talking about fetching his shotgun. But one thing that we do know is that sponsors don't like instability (proven by CART in its last days).

I'm sure you'll disagree with me, but CART was not as healthy as it appeared in the early 90's. Specifically after the retirements of all the "old guard" (AJ, Mears, Mario, Rutherford, Big Al, etc.) some people were starting to loose interest. It was always going to be hard to keep many people's interest after those guys were gone. And don't fool yourself, the only reason that the majority of fans knew anyting about Nigel (these arguments always seem to devolve to him being some knight in shining armor) was because they wanted "one of our guys" to beat him. In other words, CART may have been on ok footing world-wide (for the moment and at any moment "their" focus could just as easly turn back to F1, and did), but domesticaly it was shaky anyway.

Obviously I don't have a crystal ball, and neither do you, but I think that AOWR was in for a bit of a downturn in the mid 90s, with or without the IRL.

"But one thing that we do know is that sponsors don't like instability (proven by CART in its last days)" That is exactly right. So why would you want to go screwing around with something that is showing signs of life, no matter how weak those signs may be?

[Jag_Warrior]

In other words, CART may have been on ok footing world-wide (for the moment and at any moment "their" focus could just as easly turn back to F1, and did), but domesticaly it was shaky anyway.

You know how I love data, Chuck. The data shows that CART's domestic ratings in the early '90's just for Long Beach were within a gnat's breath of where Indy's are now (3.0 vs. 3.9). There was a qualifying session on ESPN2 from Motegi which got a .4 in the wee hours of the morning (I want to say this was in '96 or so)... while the IRL's primetime rating for Richmond was a .22 (according to what I just read).

CART was not perfect. And likely there would have been setbacks, just as there are with any business. But let's state the obvious: CART was a series which attracted a range of talent from all over the world: from Nigel Mansell to Ayrton Senna. Just recently, Carl Haas quoted his budget when Mansell was on the team at around $25 million. How could they have that much? Because sponsors deemed it to be worth that much. One of my former companies paid in excess of $1 million a year to Team Rahal for an associate sponsorship, in addition to the technical support we gave to the team. This was a time when teams were still developing their own chassis, and engine manufacturers were still anxiously coming in. The big names in CART: Andretti, Unser, Fittipaldi, Sullivan, Tracy, Rahal, etc. - they weren't famous for wiggling their beeehinds in bikinis. They were the real deal... and everybody knew it.



Obviously I don't have a crystal ball, and neither do you, but I think that AOWR was in for a bit of a downturn in the mid 90s, with or without the IRL.

Yes, possibly a bit of a downturn. But saying that this is just a "bit of a downturn" is like comparing Apple Computer's downturn today to that of AIG's.



"But one thing that we do know is that sponsors don't like instability (proven by CART in its last days)"

That is exactly right. So why would you want to go screwing around with something that is showing signs of life, no matter how weak those signs may be?

I didn't force George out the door, Chuck. What they do at IMS now is all on the Hulman family. Signs of life, huh? So you're seeing some "green shoots", eh? :D I'll give you this, the patient still has a heartbeat. But as far as I can see, that's about it.

All I'm seeing from this is people talking about cutting costs and yet, no one knows how to enhance value. As I've said many, many times: Ferrari works a lot harder at enhancing and maintaining the perceived value of its cars than it does trying to squeeze pennies out of the production process. You cannot sell a once premier product as still being premier, when it has the appearance of being cut rate.

[Bob Riebe]

CART was a series which attracted a range of talent from all over the world: from Nigel Mansell to Ayrton Senna. Just recently,

The Indianapolis 500 was a race that attracted talent from all over the world.
CART was a series that sued to be allowed to race there.
What CART was, was shown when they lost Indy.

[Lousada]

You know how I love data, Chuck. The data shows that CART's domestic ratings in the early '90's just for Long Beach were within a gnat's breath of where Indy's are now (3.0 vs. 3.9). There was a qualifying session on ESPN2 from Motegi which got a .4 in the wee hours of the morning (I want to say this was in '96 or so)... while the IRL's primetime rating for Richmond was a .22 (according to what I just read).


If we are looking at ratings trends, maybe it's better to look at how the IRL developed over the years.

This is from an old thread (2006) in *****.
IRL TV RATINGS TREND

..............1996.......1997.........1998.......1 999.........2000.........2001
Walt Disney
...World......2.2.(ABC)..1.8.(ABC)....1.8.(ABC)..1 .8.(ABC)....1.3.(ABC)
Phoenix.......2.2.(ABC)..1.8.(ABC)....1.9.(ABC)..1 .9.(FOX)....1.7.(ABC)....1.0.(ABC)
Indy 500......6.6.(ABC)..6.6.(ABC)....5.5.(ABC)..5.0.(A BC)....4.4.(ABC)....5.2.(ABC)
...Rainout...............4.3.(ABC)................ ..................................
...Conclusion............5.0.(ABC)................ ..................................
Loudon........1.6.(ABC)..1.4.(ABC)....1.3.(CBS)
Las Vegas.....1.4.(ABC)..1.1.(ABC)....0.3.(TNN)..0.25. (ESPN2).0.3.(ABC)
Texas I..................0.6.(ESPN2)..0.4.(TNN)..x.x.(FO X)....x.x.(ESPN)...0.5.(ESPN)
Pikes Peak...............1.4.(ABC)....1.1.(ABC)..x.x.(FO X)....0.6.(ABC)....0.7.(ABC)
Pikes Peak II....................................x.x.(FOX)
Charlotte................1.0.(CBS)....0.9.(TNN)
Dover.................................1.6.(CBS)..1 .3.(FOX)
Atlanta...............................0.9.(TNN)..x .x.(FOX)....x.x.(ESPN2)..0.6.(ESPN2)
Texas II..............................1.1.(ABC)..0.4.(AB C)....0.8.(ABC)....0.4.(ESPN2)
Kentucky.......................................... ............0.59.(ESPN)..0.9.(ABC)
Homestead......................................... .........................0.8.(ABC)
Richmond.......................................... .........................0.5.(ESPN)
Kansas............................................ .........................1.3.(ABC)
Nashville......................................... .........................0.6.(ESPN)
Gateway........................................... .........................0.4.(ESPN)
Chicagoland....................................... .........................0.9.(ABC)


.................2002.........2003........2004.... ......2005........2006

Walt Disney
...World.........Dropped from schedule after 2000
Phoenix..........1.2.(ABC)....0.9.(ABC)...0.9.(ABC ).....0.6.(ABC)...Dropped from schedule after 2005
Indy 500.........4.8.(ABC)....4.2.(ABC)...4.1.(ABC).... .6.5.(ABC)...5.0.(ABC)
...Rain Delay 1...........................3.6.(ABC)
...Rain Delay 2...........................3.3.(ABC)
Loudon...........Dropped from schedule after 1998
Las Vegas........Dropped from schedule after 2000
Texas I..........0.6.(ESPN)...0.4.(ESPN)..0.4.(ESPN).... 1.0.(ESPN)..0.6.(ESPN)
Pikes Peak.......1.0.(ABC)....0.7.(ABC)...0.7.(ABC)..... 0.8.(ABC)...Dropped after 2005
Charlotte........Dropped from schedule after 1998
Dover............Dropped from schedule after 1999
Atlanta..........0.9.(ABC)....Dropped from schedule after 2002
Texas II.........0.9.(ABC)....0.5.(ESPN)..0.8.(ABC)....D ropped from schedule after 2004
Kentucky.........0.9.(ABC)....0.8.(ABC)...0.8.(ABC ).....0.9.(ABC)...X.X.(ABC)
Homestead........1.5.(ABC)....1.8.(ABC)...0.9.(ESP N)....0.6.(ESPN)..0.8.(ABC)
.................................................. ......0.2.(ESPN2)
Richmond.........0.6.(ESPN)...0.48(ESPN)..0.24.(ES PN2)..0.4.(ESPN2).0.4.(ESPN2)
Kansas...........1.3.(ABC)....1.2.(ABC)...1.2.(ABC ).....1.1.(ABC)...1.2.(ABC)
Nashville........0.5.(ESPN2)..0.3.(ESPN2).0.3.(ESP N)....0.5.(ESPN)..0.4.(ESPN)
Gateway..........0.8.(ESPN)...0.7.(ABC)....Dropped from schedule after 2003
Chicagoland......1.1.(ABC)....0.8.(ABC)...0.8.(ABC ).....1.0.(ABC)...x.x.(ABC)
California.......0.5.(ESPN)...0.6.(ABC)...0.1.(ESP N)....0.6.(ESPN)..Dropped after 2005
Nazareth.........1.1.(ABC)....0.6.(ESPN)..0.9.(ABC )....Dropped from schedule after 2004
Michigan.........1.2.(ABC)....1.0.(ABC)...0.8.(ABC ).....1.3.(ABC)...1.0*(ABC)
.....Actual race broadcast @ 12:45 am................................0.2.(ESPN2)
.....*Rain-delayed broadcast with no actual "racing"
Motegi........................0.9.(ABC)...0.1.(ESP N2)...0.0.(ESPN2).0.3.(ESPN)
Milwaukee.................................0.8.(ABC ).....0.4.(ABC)...0.4.(ESPN)
St. Petersburg........................................ ..0.4.(ESPN)..0.5.(ESPN)
Infineon.......................................... ......0.5.(ESPN)..X.X.(ESPN)
Watkins Glen.............................................0 .7.(ABC)...0.8.(ABC)


As you can see, the ratings have been in a continuous downward trend. Most of the races were on network and are now on obscure cable.

[wedge]

Nice article by Robin Miller. Not usual venom spitting.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-end-of-the-tony-george-era/

[Mark in Oshawa]

Robin Miller is a nicer guy about it than I would be.

I wont spare or mince words. Tony George has all but killed OW racing. Yes CART should have co-opted him, but after reading Robin's little history perspective, you can understand why they didn't want to deal with him. He was clueless with an ego and a checkbook. They noticed the clueless part but ignored the Ego and checkbook at their peril.

I think the only thing keeping the IRL in business right now is the fact that the Indy 500 needs cars to run every May, and for that to happen, there has to be some form of a series to support the economics of teams owning cars adn running in the race. No series, likely no Indy 500, and Mari Hulman wont let THAT happen.

There is a window of opportunity here though for wiser or deeper pockets (hopefully both to come in) and change the direction of the series. I suspect Roger Penske is looking at it. I suspect Chip Ganassi might be looking at it...and I suspect Kevin Kalkoven will be saying "no...I gave up a lot of dough with Champ Car, you guys figure it out".

NASCAR will want NOTHING to do with this mess. They have their own issues AND people have to realize if they owned the Indy Car series, they would be in dangerous ground with the US Anti-Trust laws.

I do notice Robin supports my idea (it likely was his all along..lol) that the Frances and ISC were very happy to support Tony in his quest to form the IRL though. The France family and NASCAR had no problem with the formation of the IRL but I dont' see them rescuing it now.

No, the IRL will limp along in one form or another, likely with new blood or ownership. There is always someone out there willing to buy low with dreams of selling high.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Nice article by Robin Miller. Not usual venom spitting.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-end-of-the-tony-george-era/

Notice though that on this thread it took 20 posts before someone admitted Miller was right. Funny.,...a number of you accused Miller of being a liar. I don't see any apologies from any of the detractors (not that you were Wedge)

[NickFalzone]

For one thing, NASCAR would be smarter to let the IRL hang itself at this point. On the other hand, NASCAR is potentially going to drop both the Nationwide and Truck series next season and is actively looking for foreign manufacturer interest. I see no bright light in NASCAR's future either that would help pay for even a moderate priced OW type series.

[Jag_Warrior]

The Indianapolis 500 was a race that attracted talent from all over the world.
CART was a series that sued to be allowed to race there.
What CART was, was shown when they lost Indy.

It was never an either/or situation. That's what both sides (and many fans) never understood. The two complimented each other very well. Without Indy, CART would not have been as attractive to world class talent (but notice that Fittipaldi and Mansel didn't just do Indy one-offs - and Senna did his IndyCar test on a road course, not on an oval. ;) ). And without the allure of a truly diverse and premier series, Indy was no longer able to attract the world class talent that we'd grown used to. The IRL was unable to get even the likes of Kyle Petty to sit in a car for a promo shoot, because he didn't want to be connected to the series. But buried away, I do still have a picture of Rusty Wallace sitting in our Team Rahal Champ car. Rather ironic, eh?

But the bottomline is, and I'll say it again, when something is working reasonably well (warts & all), you don't bring out the pipe-wrenches and try to fix that which is not truly broken - esp. when you don't know WTF you're doing.

[Bob Riebe]

It was never an either/or situation. That's what both sides (and many fans) never understood. The two complimented each other very well. Without Indy, CART would not have been as attractive to world class talent (but notice that Fittipaldi and Mansel didn't just do Indy one-offs - and Senna did his IndyCar test on a road course, not on an oval. ;) ). And without the allure of a truly diverse and premier series, Indy was no longer able to attract the world class talent that we'd grown used to. The IRL was unable to get even the likes of Kyle Petty to sit in a car for a promo shoot, because he didn't want to be connected to the series. But buried away, I do still have a picture of Rusty Wallace sitting in our Team Rahal Champ car. Rather ironic, eh?

But the bottomline is, and I'll say it again, when something is working reasonably well (warts & all), you don't bring out the pipe-wrenches and try to fix that which is not truly broken - esp. when you don't know WTF you're doing.
That CART at points had very interesting road races, cannot be denied, but they probably should have taken a long look at what happened to the SCCA Formula-A series.
Check some of the names that raced in it.
It also had power plants from what was then the big four U.S. car companies.
IT still died.
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it.

[Blancvino]

The IRL stalwarts who are not in shock seem all too ready to blame CART for the current mess and that Tony George had to start the IRL out of shivery.

Don Quixote comes to mind. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Don_Quixote See if you can see some parallels.

[Jag_Warrior]

That CART at points had very interesting road races, cannot be denied, but they probably should have taken a long look at what happened to the SCCA Formula-A series.
Check some of the names that raced in it.
It also had power plants from what was then the big four U.S. car companies.
IT still died.
Those who do not learn from the past are condemned to relive it.

In this day & time, I'm sure that many have grown tired of overused businesses phrases. But here are two that do apply to the CART/Indy 500 relationship: synergies and symbiotic pairing.

And yet again I say, if ain't well & truly broken, don't go f#####g with it! Has that lesson not been learned by now?

Spilt milk cannot be put back in the glass. So I have no idea what they can or will do going forward. Since the overwhelming majority of viewers and fans have turned their backs on this sport and the Indy 500 over the past 15 years, all I can do is say, "good luck." I could say, "I told ya so....", but I won't do that. :dozey:

[SoCalPVguy]

Chorus from "American Pie"

So bye-bye, miss American pie (TG).
Drove my Chevy to the levee (corporate sponsorship),
But the levee was dry.
And them good old boys (nascar) were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
Singin’, "this will be the day that I (they) die.
"this will be the day that I (they) die."

You got some of the lyrics wrong. Here's the correct version:

So bye-bye, miss American pie (TG).
Drove my HONDA to the PONDA (corporate sponsorship),
But the ponda was dry.
And them good old boys (nascar) were drinkin’ whiskey and rye
Singin’, "this will be the day that I (they) die.
"this will be the day that I (they) die.

Maybe if they actually HAD A CHEVY, the I.R.L. would be in better shape today...

[Easy Drifter]

Although I think Bob Riebe is out to lunch most of the time he is right about SCCA and F5000. That does ignore the fact that SCCA has destroyed every series they ever ran, including at least one successful (Formula Atlantic) until they got involved.

[peasant]

To sing about the IRL, they would first have to even care about the IRL. They don't.
How come a blatantly pro Nascar anti openwheel poster is on this board? Doesn't that make you purely a troll?

[Bob Riebe]

Key phrase here: "SCCA Formula-A series". (AKA F-5000.) There was also a dispute between them and USAC over control of that series. Don't forget that those were the same folks who killed CanAm and ran TransAm into the ground. Your comparison is not well taken.
The Trans-Am ran for over thirty years, you analogy is flawed on that point.

They tried to run USAC cars against Formula-A cars, on both ovals and road courses and obviously that would not work as one was at least one hundred hp more powerful.
I forget why the Indy cars were a flop on the road courses.

The Formula-A was, NEVER, even in its best days, more than a secondary series, which is one reason the SCCA came up with the bone-head move to combine the cars from the formula series (by putting fenders on them and making them heavier and slower) with the name Can-Am thinking by some wierd rhetoric this would make it more popular.
Do not forget at this time the Can-Am was missed so much, during the biggest name years of the Formula-A cars, that some tracks were running formula libre races just to get the Group 7 cars back.

If the open wheel cars had been popular no one would have spent the time and money for the Group 7 libre races, but they did because as I said, Formula-A, even during the seemingly glory years was a also running series. It was not a headliner.

Some of the CART boys ran cars IN the SCCA series, they SHOULD HAVE KNOWN that formula cars in the U.S beyond Indy and sprint cars, is NOT at the top of U.S. racing fans agenda.
Formula-1 was just as brain-dead, or narcissistic.

[Bob Riebe]

Although I think Bob Riebe is out to lunch most of the time he is right about SCCA and F5000. That does ignore the fact that SCCA has destroyed every series they ever ran, including at least one successful (Formula Atlantic) until they got involved.
Actually I was eating lunch while writing that.

[chuck34]

Look all I'm saying is that CART is at least as much at fault for all of this as TG. And I don't understand why everyone only piles on one side or the other. They are BOTH at fault. It would be nice if the old CART boys could put down the sword and see that CART was not ever perfect. Indy and CART both needed each other. That is painfully obvious.

But lets take a look at things from the late '94-'95 time frame. CART did NOT run at Indy. CART had nothing to do with Indy. CART adopted simmilar rules to the USAC rules at Indy, and as such they were allowed to run there. Another way to see things is that Indy, pre-'96, was a stand alone race. TG (right or wrong) wanted to enhace Indy by becoming part of the board of CART and making Indy/CART one unified deal. CART told him to fly a kite. So he did and started his own series. At that point, and this is the part that no one ever wants to acknoledge, is that NOTHING HAD CHANGED. CART still had there series, completely unchanged. They were still allowed to run at Indy just as they had been allowed to for the previous 16 years.

It was CART who went and started their own race that started the downward spiral. They could have just as easily left well enough alone, gone to Indy in '96, beat the pants off the IRL guys and the whole experiment would have been over in about a year or maybe two.

Bottom line is that TG has some fault, probably about 50%, and CART shares the other 50%. All this TG is the devil because he started his own league just denies the facts.

[garyshell]

At that point, and this is the part that no one ever wants to acknoledge, is that NOTHING HAD CHANGED. CART still had there series, completely unchanged. They were still allowed to run at Indy just as they had been allowed to for the previous 16 years.

Look up 25-8 and get back to us if you still believe that ridiculous statement.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Hey Gary, know what's almost as ridiculous? Curt Cavin of the Indy Star in a recent column talking about Our Good Friend Tony George's abdication. He called TG the "driving force" behind last year's reunification efforts. Yikes...

I wonder how much Mari and the Sisters Three had to do with TG finally going along with it?

[downtowndeco]

Look up 25-8 and get back to us if you still believe that ridiculous statement.

Gary

I looked it up and here's what I found. It's from 1996 so it does not have 15 years of urban legend misinformation spin on it that has been perpetuated on some forums. Please feel free to dispute any of the following;



FICTION: Twenty-five of the 33 starting spots in the 1996 Indianapolis 500 have been guaranteed to IRL teams.

FACT: There are no guaranteed spots in the Indianapolis 500 field. If a top-25 car in IRL owner points after the Phoenix 200 enters and completes a four-lap qualifying attempt at Indianapolis within a percentage (to be determined) of the pole speed, the car's in the show. EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME.

***

FICTION: The first 25 positions in the Indianapolis 500 field are reserved for IRL competitors.

FACT: No individual starting positions are reserved in the field. As stated above, EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME. The pole is decided by the fastest qualifier either on the first day or after the original qualifying line is completed, whichever comes last...the same as 1995 and before.

***
FICTION: The first 25 positions in the Indianapolis 500 field are reserved for IRL competitors.

FACT: No individual starting positions are reserved in the field. As stated above, EVERYTHING ELSE STAYS THE SAME. The pole is decided by the fastest qualifier either on the first day or after the original qualifying line is completed, whichever comes last...the same as 1995 and before.

FICTION: CART car owners and drivers have been "locked out" of the Indianapolis 500.

FACT: No drivers or owners have been locked out of any IRL event, including the Indianapolis 500, in any sense of the words. All CART owners and prospective IRL team owners received entry invitations for the first IRL event at Orlando. All CART and IRL teams will receive entry invitations to the Phoenix 200 and Indianapolis 500. Accepting or declining to enter is up to them.

[garyshell]

within a percentage (to be determined)


Those are the operative words in that statement. Do you honestly thing that the determined percentage would have excluded any IRL car? But even if it had, it is obvious this plan was created to maximize the number of IRL cars and limit the number of outsiders, "guarantees" or not. It was a clear and distinct shot across the bow. The shot that perpetrated the US500. The 25-8 rule and the US 500 were BOTH stupid, idiotic moves by egos larger than their corresponding brains.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Call it what you want. It was not without precedent. In fact, it was a page out of the CART rulebook:


FICTION: The percentage allows an unfair governing procedure as to who makes the field.

FACT: Percentages of the pole time to ALLOW cars in fields have been part of rule books for years, very similar to the IRL rule, in order to protect the quality of fields. The IRL rule does just that, and at the same time offers a "perk" to the top cars in IRL owner points. In CART during 1995, the figure was 115 percent for all races. (Source: 1995 IndyCar Rule Book, Chapter 6.17.1, page 20, which states: "Eligibility. In addition to the requirements set forth herein, a race car or driver that has not demonstrated the ability to run with consistency and safety with other competitors at a speed greater than one hundred fifteen percent (115%) of the time posted by the fastest qualified race car and driver during practice or qualifying for a competition, may be denied a starting position for that competition by the Chief Steward.") Both Formula One and IMSA have also had percentage procedures in their histories.





Those are the operative words in that statement. Do you honestly thing that the determined percentage would have excluded any IRL car? But even if it had, it is obvious this plan was created to maximize the number of IRL cars and limit the number of outsiders, "guarantees" or not. It was a clear and distinct shot across the bow. The shot that perpetrated the US500. The 25-8 rule and the US 500 were BOTH stupid, idiotic moves by egos larger than their corresponding brains.

Gary

[garyshell]

Call it what you want. It was not without precedent. In fact, it was a page out of the CART rulebook:


FICTION: The percentage allows an unfair governing procedure as to who makes the field.

FACT: Percentages of the pole time to ALLOW cars in fields have been part of rule books for years, very similar to the IRL rule, in order to protect the quality of fields. The IRL rule does just that, and at the same time offers a "perk" to the top cars in IRL owner points. In CART during 1995, the figure was 115 percent for all races. (Source: 1995 IndyCar Rule Book, Chapter 6.17.1, page 20, which states: "Eligibility. In addition to the requirements set forth herein, a race car or driver that has not demonstrated the ability to run with consistency and safety with other competitors at a speed greater than one hundred fifteen percent (115%) of the time posted by the fastest qualified race car and driver during practice or qualifying for a competition, may be denied a starting position for that competition by the Chief Steward.") Both Formula One and IMSA have also had percentage procedures in their histories.


You really are a piece of work. The CART rule applied to the ENTIRE field. It was a safety rule meant to exclude the likes of the driving dentist, not an addendum to some method of maximizing the number of CART participants and excluding others. The % clause was there as a lame attempt (probably suggested up by some lawyer) to make it look like there was not a quota system being put in place. It was as transparent as a piece of glass.

You can spin the 25-8 rule all you like and keep trying to re-write history. We all know what it was, why it was and what it caused.

After the split was formalized how many other races that the IRL ran had any sort of speed percentage rule?

BTW you never answered my question, do you think that an announced percentage ever would have exclueded a single IRL car?

Gary

[Chaparral66]

You're just blowing smoke, DTD. The 25-8 rule wasn't a percentage rule designed to protect the speed integrity of the fields during qualifying, it was put into practice before qualifying to make sure a specific portion of the field (25 spots) who had committed to the IRL series exclusive priority to those 25 positions. Doesn't matter how the IRL spinned it back then, that's what it was. That was the reason for CART's boycott. The 25-8 rule was in place for two years, 1996-97, before being cancelled.

Speaking of research, here's some I did, with the sources indicated after posting:

* Jump ahead to the mid-1990s. Tony George, whose family owns Indianapolis Motor Speedway and remains closely associated to USAC, is frustrated with the F1-like dominance of a few wealthy teams in CART and the fact that the owners also run the sanctioning body. He announces that the 1996 Indy 500 will operate as part of his new Indy Racing League. George’s implementation of the 25/8 rule, which allows only eight spots on the Indy 500 starting grid for teams that don’t compete in the IRL’s races, is seen by CART owners as proof of ill will. They call it a lockout and schedule their own race, the U.S. 500 at Michigan, on the same day in 1996. -- Jeff Olson, SPEEDTV.com, 2/23/2008

In 1995, George announced that 25 of the 33 starting positions at the 1996 Indy 500 would be reserved for the top 25 cars in IRL points standings (similar in practice to NASCAR's Top 35 rule introduced years later). The move effectively left only eight starting positions open to the CART-regulars. CART's reaction was to boycott the race, and they staged a competing event, the U.S. 500, on the same day. Veteran Buddy Lazier, won a competitive but crash-filled 1996 Indy 500. The U.S. 500 was marred by a massive opening lap pileup. The competing U.S. 500 failed to establish itself as a major event, and was cancelled after only one running. -- Answers.com

The 25/8 Rule Is Gone
INDIANAPOLIS: Leo Mehl, executive director of The Indy Racing League, announced this morning that the much publicized twenty-five/eight rule will no longer be in effect after this year's Indy 500. The rule was implemented in 1996. It guaranteed that twenty-five spots for the Indianapolis 500 would be held for series regulars, leaving only 8 spots in the field for "at large" participants.
Championship Auto Racing Teams (CART) used the rule as a basis for their boycott of the 1996 and 1997 Indy 500. Mehl said the rule was necessary. It was used by the IRL as an insurance policy. The rule showed a commitment by the IRL to the teams that wanted to participate in the series. Mehl said that the 33 fastest qualifiers will start the 1998 Indy 500. -- Terry Callahan, 5/24/97, The Auto Channel

This confirms what the 25-8 rule was, as spoken by then IRL exec. director Leo Mehl. TG stacked the deck in the IRL's first Indy 500 so its teams would have most of the field. When the IRL spec G-Force and Dallara bodies and Infiniti and Oldsmobile engines were firmly established in 1998, that's when TG went back to the normal procedure to give starting spots to the fastest 33 cars...as long as they used, of course, IRL specific equipment which were NOW different from CART's. --Chap66

* May 1996: The 25/8 rule, which guarantees spots in the field for IRL teams, is applied to the IRL's first Indy 500. CART boycotts the race and stages its U.S. 500 at Michigan International Speedway on the same day. Buddy Lazier wins Indy. Nobody remembers who won the U.S. 500. (OK, it was Jimmy Vasser.) -- Preston Lerner, 2/24/2009, Automobilemag.com

You can blow all the smoke you want, DTD, quote abitrary rules all day, but there is no disputing what the 25-8 rule was, which is exactly what Garyshell said it was, Tony George's method of stacking the deck of the Indy 500 for the IRL, the first real shot in a 14 year war to destroy CART/Champ Car. Your "facts" are lacking in any logic or basis in reality.

[downtowndeco]

According to the rule book, yes, it was possible.

I'm sorry if the facts are not as you want to remember them or if they don't fit the "Everything CART did was great & everything TG did was awful." mold. But the reality is the percentage rule that the IRL had was no different, in fact, than the rule that CART had.





BTW you never answered my question, do you think that an announced percentage ever would have exclueded a single IRL car?

[Chaparral66]

According to the rule book, yes, it was possible.

I'm sorry if the facts are not as you want to remember them or if they don't fit the "Everything CART did was great & everything TG did was awful." mold. But the reality is the percentage rule that the IRL had was no different, in fact, than the rule that CART had.

CART/Champ Car was guilty of many mistakes and stupid blunders on its own, but the issue here is the 25-8 rule. The CART rule is VERY different, the 25-8 rule on the IRL's part was a calculated exclusionary rule to protect its own @$$.

[chuck34]

Look up 25-8 and get back to us if you still believe that ridiculous statement.

Gary

I stand by my point. Plus wouldn't have been great if CART had forced TG's hand? If they had shown up, and had the fastest 20 times (or however many), do you really think the 25-8 rule would have stood? Or if it did that everyone would have seen how unfair it was, and it would have all blown up right then and there?

Nothing had changed, CART teams were still allowed to run. No matter how you want to spin it.

[Blancvino]

I stand by my point. Plus wouldn't have been great if CART had forced TG's hand? If they had shown up, and had the fastest 20 times (or however many), do you really think the 25-8 rule would have stood? Or if it did that everyone would have seen how unfair it was, and it would have all blown up right then and there?

Nothing had changed, CART teams were still allowed to run. No matter how you want to spin it.

If I recall any one could run as long as they ran the other races leading up to the 500.

A - Dumb rule
B - Dumb response

A + B = REGRETTABLE result

I stopped attending the 500 in '96. And now, I doubt I'll EVER go back. I'm one of the forever lost fans.

[chuck34]

If I recall any one could run as long as they ran the other races leading up to the 500.

A - Dumb rule
B - Dumb response

A + B = REGRETTABLE result

I stopped attending the 500 in '96. And now, I doubt I'll EVER go back. I'm one of the forever lost fans.

Ok. Number one, I agree both TG and CART made dumb moves. Number two, if you're a fan lost forever, why are you here? If you keep an open mind and actually watch some races then you can express your opinions. But if you are going to be close minded and "lost forever" your opinion doesn't mean jack to me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I stand by my point. Plus wouldn't have been great if CART had forced TG's hand? If they had shown up, and had the fastest 20 times (or however many), do you really think the 25-8 rule would have stood? Or if it did that everyone would have seen how unfair it was, and it would have all blown up right then and there?

Nothing had changed, CART teams were still allowed to run. No matter how you want to spin it.

Chuck...you and Deco are dreaming in techincolor. If you really think the CART guys showed up with 24 entries fighting for those 8 spots and had 20 of the top 21 times, you think Tony was going to change the rule? You ON DRUGS? Tony put that rule in there to force teams to either commit to his series for the 500 or stay with CART. There was no choice for the top teams. He was taking their series right out from under them by using their entry in the Indy 500 as the carrot.

As businessmen, they were going to have to capitulate to be part of the Indy 500. Tony would be twice the village idiot I already think he is if he caved in on that one.

This whole Alice in Wonderland nightmare started because Tony George didn't have control of the series racing at his track and the owners of the teams didn't respect him. He saw that as dissing the Indy 500 and IMS. What it was they had no faith in him. Turns out his sisters and Stepmom don't now either.

All you Tony George apolgists out there cannot shake the few firm facts we have now.

CART in 1993 was getting ex f1 drivers fresh from winning championships. They had teams with bigger than NASCAR budgets, they had TV ratings ahead of NASCAR, they had international interest with real substantial potential for more, and they had 28 to 30 car fields possible at EVERY RACE. The only thing wrong with that series in the eyes of Tony George was that he had no say in it, and he wasn't getting a cut. He felt used.

Well Tony...you used me as a fan because your series had not one half of the fans, killed the month of May as a tradition, did little to put "American" drivers in the seats, and proved once and for all you had no idea on how to run a racing series other than to pour the Hulman money down a hole.

[Mark in Oshawa]

CART/Champ Car was guilty of many mistakes and stupid blunders on its own, but the issue here is the 25-8 rule. The CART rule is VERY different, the 25-8 rule on the IRL's part was a calculated exclusionary rule to protect its own @$$.

CART's only mistakes were the massive spending they went on AFTER the war with the IRL was truly entrenched. The US 500? I don't know if it was a egreious error or not. I do think it was poorly thought out but the idea of replacing the 500 had some legs at that time when Tony pulled the 25-8 deal on them.

I do know this much. I didn't watch the Indy 500 for 5 years until Penske and Ganassi started going back. I do think THAT was the biggest mistake the CART teams did. They had the highroad and the best talent, why go back and help Tony get oxygen when the IRL was stagnating under such "stars" as Buddy Lazier and Eddie Cheever?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Oh yes...any talk of the stupidity of SCCA Pro Racing and how they killed Can-Am, Formula A and kept Trans-Am alive with bandaids is a silly argument. They couldn't figure out much of anything and never have been good at running Professional racing series. Their misdeeds and mismanagement lessons don't really apply here to the massive stupidity that is the OW war of the years 1995 to 2007

[Blancvino]

But if you are going to be close minded and "lost forever" your opinion doesn't mean jack to me.

I am lost forever until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies. I will NEVER give credence to anything associated with the grandson's "vision". Call me [fill in the blank], it's not going to happen.

I will always view the IRL as a regrettable miscalculation.

[chuck34]

Chuck...you and Deco are dreaming in techincolor. If you really think the CART guys showed up with 24 entries fighting for those 8 spots and had 20 of the top 21 times, you think Tony was going to change the rule? You ON DRUGS? Tony put that rule in there to force teams to either commit to his series for the 500 or stay with CART. There was no choice for the top teams. He was taking their series right out from under them by using their entry in the Indy 500 as the carrot.

As businessmen, they were going to have to capitulate to be part of the Indy 500. Tony would be twice the village idiot I already think he is if he caved in on that one.

This whole Alice in Wonderland nightmare started because Tony George didn't have control of the series racing at his track and the owners of the teams didn't respect him. He saw that as dissing the Indy 500 and IMS. What it was they had no faith in him. Turns out his sisters and Stepmom don't now either.

All you Tony George apolgists out there cannot shake the few firm facts we have now.

CART in 1993 was getting ex f1 drivers fresh from winning championships. They had teams with bigger than NASCAR budgets, they had TV ratings ahead of NASCAR, they had international interest with real substantial potential for more, and they had 28 to 30 car fields possible at EVERY RACE. The only thing wrong with that series in the eyes of Tony George was that he had no say in it, and he wasn't getting a cut. He felt used.

Well Tony...you used me as a fan because your series had not one half of the fans, killed the month of May as a tradition, did little to put "American" drivers in the seats, and proved once and for all you had no idea on how to run a racing series other than to pour the Hulman money down a hole.

I'm not sure that TG would have changed the rule. What I am saying is if the CART guys had shown up and out qualified the IRL guys in a big way, things would have (or at least could have) blown up and changed future history.

I'm not TG apologists. Read my posts. I'm well aware he has made MANY mistakes. But I am also not a CART apologist. We all need to fact the FACT that both sides screwed up BIG.

And yes CART did get a reigning F1 champ, who was disgrutled with they way he thought he should have been treated in F1. And he was gone in 2 years, before the IRL. And two other world champs that had already retired, but weren't ready for fishing yet. Forgive me for not being overly impressed.

But you are right the IRL didn't work out the way TG, or I, had hoped for. But it is what we have now, and I would like to see it go forward. Aparently some would like to see the whole thing fail just to spite one man. THAT is the sad part in all this.

[chuck34]

I am lost forever until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies. I will NEVER give credence to anything associated with the grandson's "vision". Call me [fill in the blank], it's not going to happen.

I will always view the IRL as a regrettable miscalculation.

So again I ask, why are you here? This is supposed to be a forum for FANS which you are clearly not.

[chuck34]

You know I've been thinking (I know that's dangerous). But all of you that keep talking about how TG killed "the sport" seem to be CART fans. Well if you look at it, things are now pretty simmilar to CART in '93. If there were just more chassis and engine combinations, it would be exact. So if you would look past your hatred, you'd see the sport you claim to love so much.

It is guys like me, guys that liked the original "vision" who's sport has been killed. We don't get to see guys coming from the midgets and sprints go to Indy. We don't get to see guys put together their own engines with their own little tricks to try and go faster than the other guy. Etc. Etc.

Don't get me wrong I didn't like everything about the original "vision", nor did I like everything about CART. But I did watch, and enjoy, them both. Just as I enjoy (mostly) the current IRL. I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG, enjoy the sport they claim to love, and yes even point out some of the flaws. But to spout off about how you will never watch the IRL "until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies", is just foolish. At least if you are a fan of AOWR.

Just my 2 cents worth. And I do realize my 2 cents is not worth much to many of you.

[garyshell]

I stand by my point. Plus wouldn't have been great if CART had forced TG's hand? If they had shown up, and had the fastest 20 times (or however many), do you really think the 25-8 rule would have stood? Or if it did that everyone would have seen how unfair it was, and it would have all blown up right then and there?

Nothing had changed, CART teams were still allowed to run. No matter how you want to spin it.


Yes, CART teams were allowed to run, eight of 'em. Now who is spinning?

(Technically there MIGHT have been a few more if the, face saving we better put it in so we don't get sued for restriant of trade, % rule were allowed to exapnd that, which is highly doubtful.)

Gary

[garyshell]

I'm not sure that TG would have changed the rule. What I am saying is if the CART guys had shown up and out qualified the IRL guys in a big way, things would have (or at least could have) blown up and changed future history.

My, my aren't we awful quick to spend someone else's money to pack up the team and head to IMS to make a point, knowing full well that the 25-8 rule would preclude you from running in the race after you spent all that money. I bet if it was YOUR money, your tune would be a tad different.

Gary

[garyshell]

So again I ask, why are you here? This is supposed to be a forum for FANS which you are clearly not.


Oh so YOU get to decide who is and who is not a fan now too? I think Blancvino made it clear he (or she) was not a fan of IMS and King George. I also recall him (or her) making statments that indicate a clear interest in AOWR even as it exists today.

Gary

[methanolHuffer]

I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG...

I guess most of us has known a rich kid when we were growing up. The kid that had a really nice car that he didn't have to do anything to get. The same kid would never get in trouble for wronging others in the community.

So some (myself included), tend to identify him as one of those. And while other people - like my brother - like to cheerlead for anything 'Hoosier', that kind of loyalty does nothing for something that was to be bigger than F1, and bigger than NASCAR.

So we know what Tony's intentions were from the start. Don't you feel he misled you?

And it's not really the green monster of envy for me, it's not. The better car I can get over. The way that he has never worked to prove his abilities is indication enough. It's fundamental to every study on leadership.

[garyshell]

You know I've been thinking (I know that's dangerous). But all of you that keep talking about how TG killed "the sport" seem to be CART fans. Well if you look at it, things are now pretty simmilar to CART in '93. If there were just more chassis and engine combinations, it would be exact. So if you would look past your hatred, you'd see the sport you claim to love so much.

Oh we see it alright, just not through the same rose colored pollyanna glasses as you. We see it twisted and crippled at the side of the road thanks to the ego and deep checkbook of one Anton "king" George. And for that you want us to be grateful and dutiful little robots and sing the praises of the great leaders vision? Yeah, right.


It is guys like me, guys that liked the original "vision" who's sport has been killed. We don't get to see guys coming from the midgets and sprints go to Indy. We don't get to see guys put together their own engines with their own little tricks to try and go faster than the other guy. Etc. Etc.

Don't get me wrong I didn't like everything about the original "vision", nor did I like everything about CART. But I did watch, and enjoy, them both. Just as I enjoy (mostly) the current IRL. I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG, enjoy the sport they claim to love, and yes even point out some of the flaws. But to spout off about how you will never watch the IRL "until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies", is just foolish. At least if you are a fan of AOWR.

Just my 2 cents worth. And I do realize my 2 cents is not worth much to many of you.

Go back and read Blacovino's post again, I saw NOTHING that indicates Blancovino would not watch the IRL again, only IMS. I do enjoy the sport I love. I just wish the idiot grandson hadn't decimated it to serve his own purposes. And obviously his sister's are feeling the same way, albeit for their OWN selfish reasons now.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

When is TG going to present his statement? Might as well see what he has to say about all of this...

[Chaparral66]

I stand by my point. Plus wouldn't have been great if CART had forced TG's hand? If they had shown up, and had the fastest 20 times (or however many), do you really think the 25-8 rule would have stood? Or if it did that everyone would have seen how unfair it was, and it would have all blown up right then and there?

Nothing had changed, CART teams were still allowed to run. No matter how you want to spin it.

This speculation with no ring of logic to it. If CART teams had shown up, even if they did have the fastest times, Tony George still would have put in place the 25-8. That is how he was assuring himself that IRL teams would make up most of the field. It's inaccurate to say "CART teams were still allowed to run", because the amount of CART teams being allowed to run is the issue here. Ignoring that makes your point entirely flawed.

[chuck34]

You've all made me see the light. ** Tony George. ** the Speedway. ** the IRL. ** any Clabber Girl. I'll never have anything to do with the ***** Grandson again. ** the sport I love just to spite this one man. The CART boys were 100% right and they went bankrupt twice to prove that they were never at fault with anything. It's time for another white paper. Bring back Dan Gurney. Shoot TG in the head, he's a frigging idiot.

Crist people. Why is it that no one wants to see any fault anywhere except at TG's feet? I have never once said that TG doesn't bear responsibility for the state of AOWR. Can the same be said for some of you and CART?

I'm done with these thread. You all can go back over history with your FTG glasses on. I'll continue to look at histroy through my realistic glasses where BOTH CART and TG are at fault.

[chuck34]

In retrospect, the best thing CART could have done was to have shown up at Indy just as though it was a normal year. There is little doubt that most of the CART cars/drivers would have qualified well into the field. Then when a significant number of the faster qualifiers were denied starting spots because of 25-8 the sham would have been exposed around the world (Indy HAD a world wide presence then). The resulting furor may have ended the split right then and there.

Exactly what I said. However I didn't say ***** the ***** grandson, so my opinion is ignored, as your's probably will be too.

[garyshell]

In retrospect, the best thing CART could have done was to have shown up at Indy just as though it was a normal year. There is little doubt that most of the CART cars/drivers would have qualified well into the field. Then when a significant number of the faster qualifiers were denied starting spots because of 25-8 the sham would have been exposed around the world (Indy HAD a world wide presence then). The resulting furor may have ended the split right then and there.


Exactly what I said. However I didn't say ***** the ***** grandson, so my opinion is ignored, as your's probably will be too.


I didn't ignore it. I said it would have been a very expensive way to do it. It might have been the best way in retrospect, but at the time none of the CART guys was willing to spend the money it would have taken.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

You've all made me see the light. ** Tony George. ** the Speedway. ** the IRL. ** any Clabber Girl. I'll never have anything to do with the ***** Grandson again. ** the sport I love just to spite this one man. The CART boys were 100% right and they went bankrupt twice to prove that they were never at fault with anything. It's time for another white paper. Bring back Dan Gurney. Shoot TG in the head, he's a frigging idiot.

Crist people. Why is it that no one wants to see any fault anywhere except at TG's feet? I have never once said that TG doesn't bear responsibility for the state of AOWR. Can the same be said for some of you and CART?

I'm done with these thread. You all can go back over history with your FTG glasses on. I'll continue to look at histroy through my realistic glasses where BOTH CART and TG are at fault.

Now just hold on here, Chuck. You're overreacting just a wee bit. As many of us have said, CART/Champ Car has plenty to answer for in the way things turned out. I've said that numorous times, and so have many other people. Most of us who were loyal to CART/CC were very excited to see The Three Amigos come in and rescue the series. But since they had it in their hands, they have made a mess of blunders themselves. The got rid of classic venues like Michigan, Fontana, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio in favor of some of the lamest street courses you could think of; through their ineptness they dissed Ford by favoring in a two seat Formula 1 car to showcase the field instead of all the cars Ford was bringing in as pace cars as part of their sponsorship agreement, in addition to the badging on the Cosworth engines; There was the ridiculous deal to put CC on Spike that went nowhere but down; and they couldn't promote the series to save their life. At the end, all they had was the racing which remained good for the most part. They finally brought in Tony Cotman to supervise the competition but it was too late.

But CART/Champ Car is gone. We now have to deal with the result of this conflict, and it starts and ends with Our Good Friend Tony George. He is the one who cast his "Vision" upon the sport, he will now have to deal with history's verdict.

[garyshell]

Why is it that no one wants to see any fault anywhere except at TG's feet? I have never once said that TG doesn't bear responsibility for the state of AOWR. Can the same be said for some of you and CART?

Yes, I have never said CART had no fault in the mess. I said the US 500 was a huge mistake, the IPO was another etc. etc.

But I also said it requires rose colored glasses to see the IRL today as CART II as you suggested.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

You know I've been thinking (I know that's dangerous). But all of you that keep talking about how TG killed "the sport" seem to be CART fans. Well if you look at it, things are now pretty simmilar to CART in '93. If there were just more chassis and engine combinations, it would be exact. So if you would look past your hatred, you'd see the sport you claim to love so much..

The sport I loved was a lot more viable and virile in 94 than it is now. The tracks didn't include high banked ovals like Texas where no one can pass any more. There are similarities Chuck, but that too is an insult. Tony George had a lot more of my respect when he told everyone who would listen he was going to run an oval only series that would allow guys running Silver Crown's and midgets a way to get to Indy. He was talking about no road courses and giving all the American drivers a place to race. He had no plan to make any of that happen and the only American driver he really helped was Ed Carpenter.

The IRL of today is a shadow of what CART was....and the numbers of fans and viewers on TV reflects it.


It is guys like me, guys that liked the original "vision" who's sport has been killed. We don't get to see guys coming from the midgets and sprints go to Indy. We don't get to see guys put together their own engines with their own little tricks to try and go faster than the other guy. Etc. Etc..

Tony never understood the sport well enough to grasp that midget and sprint guys were not going to adapt to rear engined winged missles. They learn muscle memory and skills better adapted to NASCAR, which is why guys like Kasey Kahne and Clint Bowyer had no problem winning almost immediately. If they had tried to run an Indy Light or IRL car, they would have had a steep learning curve. Just like Allmendinger and Hornish are having steep learning curves in NASCAR. The fallacy that Tony was going to help these guys was a noble idea but it presupposed a good driver can adapt almost right away. VERY few can. Tony Stewart and maybe a Jeff Gordon could have gone from sprints to an Indy car, but Stewart is the best example. Most USAC sprint and midget guys cant or cannot be bothered.


Don't get me wrong I didn't like everything about the original "vision", nor did I like everything about CART. But I did watch, and enjoy, them both. Just as I enjoy (mostly) the current IRL. I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG, enjoy the sport they claim to love, and yes even point out some of the flaws. But to spout off about how you will never watch the IRL "until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies", is just foolish. At least if you are a fan of AOWR..

I am with you on this one. I can watch the IRL now and have been watching it pretty steady all along (as much as I can watch any racing being on the road as often as I am) The thing is tho Chuck, the people pointing out what is wrong WANT a vital Indy Car series. Many of us may not have like Tony George, but I took a lot of heat 3 years ago advocating a merger and had been advocating it for about 3 years prior to that when it was clear Champ Car was not being run properly. I took nothing BUT heat but I wont sit there and say nice things that I don't see either. Today's IRL is a series that has potential, and some great drivers and teams, but the cars are dated, underpowered and too strictly controlled in terms of mods and aero tweaks. The result? Dull races on the ovals, and so-so to good races on the road courses. AT some point, there needs to be some serious marketing and serious innovation on the car side.


Just my 2 cents worth. And I do realize my 2 cents is not worth much to many of you.

Chuck, your 2 cents goes a lot farther with me than most. We happen to disagree but I think you are defensive of your fellow Hoosier there in Tony, and I have no such qualms. He didn't understand the dynamics of what he was messing with and now that he has learned, he is walking away with his money while the sport is a mess. Cant blame me and others for being ticked off about all of this.

CART may have had their faults, but you don't go to war over not getting "respect". You don't create a second series for OW racing when there isn't enough fans nor TV money to support both and you certainly do NOT create a series to protect the Indy 500 and the history of the sport when you have no idea of the market forces or dynamics of how drivers get rides, who pays the freight or the whole concept of negotiation as opposed to dictation.

Tell you what. If that 25/8 rule didn't exist in 96, if nothing else he would have seen a full field and all the history and love for the 500 would have never abated one iota. He did that to protect HIS series, the one that we have left now, but there was no reason to create it in the first place. THAT was his error. CART made lots of screwups post split, but most of there were a result of trying to make up for the fact they didn't have the 500 driving their TV package and their sponsors exposure.

[Chaparral66]

In retrospect, the best thing CART could have done was to have shown up at Indy just as though it was a normal year. There is little doubt that most of the CART cars/drivers would have qualified well into the field. Then when a significant number of the faster qualifiers were denied starting spots because of 25-8 the sham would have been exposed around the world (Indy HAD a world wide presence then). The resulting furor may have ended the split right then and there.

This is an excellent point, Starter. I admit, I never thought of it that way. Instead of matching egos, CART should have matched wits and come anyway in full force. Woody Allen once said something to the effect of "half the battle in life is showing up", maybe that is what should have happened. There were still a lot of Indy fans over in Europe and the reaction they might have had in addition to our own here in North America, such huge public pressure might have indeed stopped the war in its tracks (pun intended).

[garyshell]

This is an excellent point, Starter. I admit, I never thought of it that way. Instead of matching egos, CART should have matched wits and come anyway in full force. Woody Allen once said something to the effect of "half the battle in life is showing up", maybe that is what should have happened. There were still a lot of Indy fans over in Europe and the reaction they might have had in addition to our own here in North America, such huge public pressure might have indeed stopped the war in its tracks (pun intended).


Sounds real easy in hind sight, but ignores the huge outlay of cash that would have been required.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Sounds real easy in hind sight, but ignores the huge outlay of cash that would have been required.

Gary

How so?

[garyshell]

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

Gary

I understand you, but that would have been a helluva lot less expensive than what CART/Champ car spent just to stay alive. And if public pressure was fierce, who knows, maybe TG could have been convinced to change policy on the spot so as not to piss off the fans and keep tradition. If that happened, I'll bet you Hoosiers to Buckeyes that the teams involved might have said it was worth it. And if it saved us the split fiasco, I'll bet you most everyone here might agree with that. I think it's safe to say that the fans would have had a huge impact had that scenario taken place. The fans lit up the joint during the F1 Michelin folly, I doubt this would have been any different.

[garyshell]

I understand you, but that would have been a helluva lot less expensive than what CART/Champ car spent just to stay alive. And if public pressure was fierce, who knows, maybe TG could have been convinced to change policy on the spot so as not to piss off the fans and keep tradition. If that happened, I'll bet you Hoosiers to Buckeyes that the teams involved might have said it was worth it. And if it saved us the split fiasco, I'll bet you most everyone here might agree with that. I think it's safe to say that the fans would have had a huge impact had that scenario taken place. The fans lit up the joint during the F1 Michelin folly, I doubt this would have been any different.


In hindsight I agree, at the time I don't think anyone was willing to risk the money.

Gary

[grungex]

For all of the CART teams to show up and spend the month of May trying to qualify and knowing full well that all but eight of them would be excluded would have been a major expense. Remember this was in the day where the month of May was the MONTH of May and the hotel bills alone were rather steep for a team, not to mention per diem, salaries etc. etc.

You forgot catering...

[Mark in Oshawa]

You know I've been thinking (I know that's dangerous). But all of you that keep talking about how TG killed "the sport" seem to be CART fans. Well if you look at it, things are now pretty simmilar to CART in '93. If there were just more chassis and engine combinations, it would be exact. So if you would look past your hatred, you'd see the sport you claim to love so much..

The sport I loved was a lot more viable and virile in 94 than it is now. The tracks didn't include high banked ovals like Texas where no one can pass any more. There are similarities Chuck, but that too is an insult. Tony George had a lot more of my respect when he told everyone who would listen he was going to run an oval only series that would allow guys running Silver Crown's and midgets a way to get to Indy. He was talking about no road courses and giving all the American drivers a place to race. He had no plan to make any of that happen and the only American driver he really helped was Ed Carpenter.

The IRL of today is a shadow of what CART was....and the numbers of fans and viewers on TV reflects it.


It is guys like me, guys that liked the original "vision" who's sport has been killed. We don't get to see guys coming from the midgets and sprints go to Indy. We don't get to see guys put together their own engines with their own little tricks to try and go faster than the other guy. Etc. Etc..

Tony never understood the sport well enough to grasp that midget and sprint guys were not going to adapt to rear engined winged missles. They learn muscle memory and skills better adapted to NASCAR, which is why guys like Kasey Kahne and Clint Bowyer had no problem winning almost immediately. If they had tried to run an Indy Light or IRL car, they would have had a steep learning curve. Just like Allmendinger and Hornish are having steep learning curves in NASCAR. The fallacy that Tony was going to help these guys was a noble idea but it presupposed a good driver can adapt almost right away. VERY few can. Tony Stewart and maybe a Jeff Gordon could have gone from sprints to an Indy car, but Stewart is the best example. Most USAC sprint and midget guys cant or cannot be bothered.


Don't get me wrong I didn't like everything about the original "vision", nor did I like everything about CART. But I did watch, and enjoy, them both. Just as I enjoy (mostly) the current IRL. I just wish that people could see past their hatred of TG, enjoy the sport they claim to love, and yes even point out some of the flaws. But to spout off about how you will never watch the IRL "until the IMS is ONLY a track owner and the IRL is pushing up daisies", is just foolish. At least if you are a fan of AOWR..

I am with you on this one. I can watch the IRL now and have been watching it pretty steady all along (as much as I can watch any racing being on the road as often as I am) The thing is tho Chuck, the people pointing out what is wrong WANT a vital Indy Car series. Many of us may not have like Tony George, but I took a lot of heat 3 years ago advocating a merger and had been advocating it for about 3 years prior to that when it was clear Champ Car was not being run properly. I took nothing BUT heat but I wont sit there and say nice things that I don't see either. Today's IRL is a series that has potential, and some great drivers and teams, but the cars are dated, underpowered and too strictly controlled in terms of mods and aero tweaks. The result? Dull races on the ovals, and so-so to good races on the road courses. AT some point, there needs to be some serious marketing and serious innovation on the car side.


Just my 2 cents worth. And I do realize my 2 cents is not worth much to many of you.

Chuck, your 2 cents goes a lot farther with me than most. We happen to disagree but I think you are defensive of your fellow Hoosier there in Tony, and I have no such qualms. He didn't understand the dynamics of what he was messing with and now that he has learned, he is walking away with his money while the sport is a mess. Cant blame me and others for being ticked off about all of this.

CART may have had their faults, but you don't go to war over not getting "respect". You don't create a second series for OW racing when there isn't enough fans nor TV money to support both and you certainly do NOT create a series to protect the Indy 500 and the history of the sport when you have no idea of the market forces or dynamics of how drivers get rides, who pays the freight or the whole concept of negotiation as opposed to dictation.

Tell you what. If that 25/8 rule didn't exist in 96, if nothing else he would have seen a full field and all the history and love for the 500 would have never abated one iota. He did that to protect HIS series, the one that we have left now, but there was no reason to create it in the first place. THAT was his error. CART made lots of screwups post split, but most of there were a result of trying to make up for the fact they didn't have the 500 driving their TV package and their sponsors exposure.