Who is ready for the WRC in 2011?

[gloomyDAY]

1.6L T

Yes! :D

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=5292&desc=FIA%20maps%20out%20the%20future%20of%20the%20 WRC

Now we need some night stages.

[MJW]

1.6L T

Yes! :D

http://www.wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=5292&desc=FIA%20maps%20out%20the%20future%20of%20the%20 WRC

Now we need some night stages.
Lets get some (manufacturers) teams confirmed first.

[grugsticles]

Its a start at least, but I don't understand how building a new 1.6L engine is supposed to reduce costs.

[RS]

Its a start at least, but I don't understand how building a new 1.6L engine is supposed to reduce costs.

400cc smaller engine should use a lot less metal, silly :D

I think the cost reduction is supposed to be in transmissions e.t.c. rather than engine.

[ShiftingGears]

The WRC is in need of cars with a higher power to grip ratio. If they end up looking the same as the current WRC cars, it's going to be a disappointment.

[playmo]

If you ask me, it's a stupid move to step down from 2L+turbo, they could cut the cost on the same stuff that they will be doing it on the 1.6L engines. Lets hope that more manufacturers will bite this one and sign up for the c'ship.

[serial jeff]

Its a start at least, but I don't understand how building a new 1.6L engine is supposed to reduce costs.

I'm not entirely sure but I think it might just be because more manufacturers have a 1.6T engine? I don't think they could make do with a weaker transmission because theres no guarantee that the 1.6T will be less powerful than the current cars. It all depends on the airflow, they could make a 1.6T with 800hp if they wanted to.

Personally I'd like to see less powerful but much lighter cars. 1250kg is pretty hefty for a small car. I'd prefer if they had a minimum of about 1000kg, maybe even a little less.

[userwave]

1.6l T

the group n / pwrc cars would be quicker

[Psycho!]

Guys,look at WRC.COM!!!More changes are coming...!!!They are quite interesting!!!

[Lousada]

I forgot where I read it, but the WTCC is supposedly also going to 1.6 turbo. I wonder how fast it will be.

[Josti]

Guys,look at WRC.COM!!!More changes are coming...!!!They are quite interesting!!!

http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=5311&desc=More%20WRC%20rule%20changes%20announced

Definitly some points I look forward to. I'm glad they're going to get rid of Super Rally, well, more or less. Should be 400 km the least for rally stage mileage instead of 300, but a maximum of 500 km is certaintly a good sign.

It's good to see some roots are steadily coming back :up:

[f-cup]

1.6l T

the group n / pwrc cars would be quicker

I dont believe so. It all depends on the turbo restrictor. Couple of mm's more than now, and they have the same, or more power than wrc today. But we have to wait and see how the regulations are going to be.

[COD]

Still think that current non-turbo S2000 cars for WRC would have been the best long term solution. Allready so many manufacturers have such car. I don't think many of them wan't to develop a new engine for WRC. My prediction: WRC will be as boring as it is now and IRC will continue to grow

[Mirek]

Its a start at least, but I don't understand how building a new 1.6L engine is supposed to reduce costs.

I would say that engine displacement has nothing to do with cost. Cost is about what is allowed by the rulles in my opinion.

Move to 1.6T is very clever from marketing point of wiev. Every car manufacturer is now making smaller but turbocharged engines because of lower fuel consumption and less emission. In the same time 2.0 engine is a dying kind now. Very few manufacturers have 2.0T in their portofolio but almost all have or prepare 1.6T now. For car makers WRC is mostly a marketing tool...

Also the fact that WTCC and WRC should use the same engines since 2011 is good in my opinion.


1.6l T

the group n / pwrc cars would be quicker

No :) As mentioned above, power is more a question of rulles than engine displacement. With reasonably larger or no restrictor, they may have even more power than current WRC without big problems. Let's wait for particular rulles.

[OldF]

It’s possible to have enough power with a reasonable price.

There was a story of Marko Jokinen’s div1 RC car in a Finnish motor sport magazine at the end of last year. He estimated that the value of the car is about 160.000 €. The engine costs 40.000-60.000 € and the transmission 35.000 €. For that you get 525 hp and 820 Nm @ ~4000 rpm. For comparison here are the prices about two years ago for a Pug 207 S2000.
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-112634-p-3.html

[SubaruNorway]

Who makes 1.6L turbo petrol engines? just curious.

[Mirek]

SubaruNorway: For sure PSA (Peugeot, Citroen), BMW, GM (Opel), Ford (2010 launch).

Generaly this trend is called downsizing and 1.4-1.6T engines become successors to 2.0 N/A engines because they have better fuel consumption and lower emissions (largely discussed CO2 emissions can be changed only by fuel type and fuel consumption).

[N.O.T]

1.6l T

the group n / pwrc cars would be quicker

no....

[Helstar]

Still think that current non-turbo S2000 cars for WRC would have been the best long term solution. Allready so many manufacturers have such car. I don't think many of them wan't to develop a new engine for WRC. My prediction: WRC will be as boring as it is now and IRC will continue to grow
I feel like you're right ... surely in 2010 will be the crap we are seeing since years :|

They don't want to be compared to IRC that's why they want this 1.6T engine ... with the same S2000 cars they fear IRC would be a better championship (funny thing is that it already is IMHO !).

[jonkka]

]I would say that engine displacement has nothing to do with cost. Cost is about what is allowed by the rulles in my opinion.

Very good post, you said everything I wanted to.

[f-cup]

As you can see from the list of changes in WRC.com, this is not all about engines. I'm quite exited about the possibilities these new rules give. Just hope that the events take them to use, and make more specialized rallyes. I see those new rules as a possible step to go back to good old rallying.

And what comes to engines, why use something that is disapperarig from the planet = 2L n/a. The 1.6t is perferct choise.

[AndyRAC]

Why can't Manufacturers choose which engine suits their car range? 1.6T v 2.0 n/a?

[bowler]

Why can't Manufacturers choose which engine suits their car range? 1.6T v 2.0 n/a?

they had a choice, and first they chose 2.0, then they changed their mind to 1.6T

[f-cup]

Some info about the upcoming regulations considering the new engine.
It is supposed to last 6000km's or 30h of use. It has to be max 16 valve and four cylinder. Rev's will be limited to 9000rp/m. No further development allowed.

[A.F.F.]

Why didn't they get rid off that stupid current starting order ???

[f-cup]

Why didn't they get rid off that stupid current starting order ???

They are studying the option, that starting order would be run in shakedown. I think that it could work, if drivers can choose their starting position in the order from shakedowns results.

[A.F.F.]

Well, it certainly is better that they would play the farce in shakedown than in a rally. But i still don't get it why not return to the previous system which was very good IMO.

[jonkka]

Well, it certainly is better that they would play the farce in shakedown than in a rally. But i still don't get it why not return to the previous system which was very good IMO.

Man's memory is sooo short. With that starting order, all rally leader did was followed splits of his opposition for two days...

[A.F.F.]

Man's memory is sooo short. With that starting order, all rally leader did was followed splits of his opposition for two days...

The way I remember it was all but Loeb were forced to drive flat out right from the start.

[matSLO]

It would be interesting if they would allow even smaller engines...perhaps 1,4T (VW Group, Fiat...)?

[DonJippo]

The way I remember it was all but Loeb were forced to drive flat out right from the start.

But they are flat out even with current rule...untill the last 100m of the last stage off the day.

[gloomyDAY]

Wouldn't the new point system also entice drivers to go for the flat out win at the end of each Leg?

[bowler]

It would be interesting if they would allow even smaller engines...perhaps 1,4T (VW Group, Fiat...)?

smaller engines are always allowed

[jonkka]

smaller engines are always allowed

And with smaller displacement they also get lower minimum weight...

[Motorsportfun]

Whoop, whoop! Can't wait to see S2000 chassis with turbo and big wings! :p

If then you consider also mixed surfaces, mixed stages, service parks so soon to the spectators, etc! ORG***IC! :D :eek:

[OldF]

Some info about the upcoming regulations considering the new engine.
It is supposed to last 6000km's or 30h of use. It has to be max 16 valve and four cylinder. Rev's will be limited to 9000rp/m. No further development allowed.

It’s going to be interesting to see what FIA comes up with. Having a rev limit of 9000 rpm the boost can’t be very high even if there’s a restrictor. With a restrictor and allowing high boost it’s no point to use high revs.

[Jevy]

Is there any news on what size the restricter will be?

[gloomyDAY]

Is there any news on what size the restricter will be?http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76616

Maybe a few mm bigger than the one used today.
I just hope this makes for more competitive rallying.

[Lousada]

I don't expect it to be faster then the current cars....

[Jevy]

Thanks for that , but I suppose it could be a while before they announce more details.

Will this change the restrictor requirements for modified rally cars at a national level. Because I know that in Ireland that all turbo rally cars must have a 34mm restrictor regardless of class. Will this change?

[Rally Power]

According to Loiraux words, future 1.6T cars could easily match today’s WRC performances.
Can this be possible with S2000 standard transmission, or will 1.6T cars use a more advanced system?

Today's edition of Portuguese Autosport magazine mentions FIA plans to stop, from 2011, new homologations for S2000 cars!
Thus this means that 1.6T WRC cars will be allowed in national championships (contradicting the principle of a pinnacle category, specific for WRC) or that national series will be reserved only to N4 cars (Evos and Imprezas)?

I thougt that FIA would maintain S2000 as a valid alternative for national or regional purposes, keeping WRC non-interested manufacturers involved at the sport, but it seems now that for them options will be basic 2wd cars or state of the art 1.6T WRC!

PS: decisions about WRC future taken at last WMSC are OK, and guide world rallying into the direction that was followed before Mr. Richard and ISC “TV purpose revolution” of the late 90’s… :o

[OldF]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76616

Yes, it’s easy with a restrictor but I think Christian Loriaux wants to preserve the “high boost / low revs” cars for some strange reason.

The S2000 cars have a homologated ECU with a rev limiter and I can’t see any problem in having a similar homologated ECU with both a boost limiter. The both systems are measuring a value (revs and pressure) and the software reacts when the limit is reached. The rev limiter software cuts the ignition and the boost limiter software opens the waste gate.

And having the same power from a 1.6 l engine as the 2.0 l WRC engines has is no problem. The 2.0 l “home built” RC engines produces about 550 hp with a 45 mm restrictor so a 1.6 engine with a 45 mm restrictor could have about 450 hp.

[Motorsportfun]

maybe the restrictors will be smaller than actuals 44mm

have all to wait the technical regs! :/ wake up FIA!

[JFL]

And having the same power from a 1.6 l engine as the 2.0 l WRC engines has is no problem. The 2.0 l “home built” RC engines produces about 550 hp with a 45 mm restrictor so a 1.6 engine with a 45 mm restrictor could have about 450 hp.

the RC- engines would never last for a whole rally! ;)

[OldF]

the RC- engines would never last for a whole rally! ;)

Well, at least for the first stage, if it’s a short one. :colour:

To continue with my previous post, truck racing uses a top speed limiter and the controlling of the top speed has also been solved so controlling boost level can’t be much more difficult.

Also when looking at the torque curves for some road turbo cars, the curve is level after the turbo have reached a certain boost level. And if this is possible with mass production cars I don’t see how it wouldn’t be possible with special built cars.

A WRC car has a lot of data logging anyway. Memory needed for data logging isn’t a problem. The slowest driver in Poland used 4 hours, 48 minutes and 2.8 seconds making true the stages. Converting this time to seconds is 17282,8 seconds. Making a log every microsecond means1000 * 17282,8 = 17.282.800 loggings. If every log needs a two-byte memory (which is a quite accurate figure), the memory needed is 34.565.600 bytes, which is 33.8 MB of memory. As you can see the memory needed for data logging isn’t big if you compare it with for example the USB sticks available nowadays.

[HaCo]

Today's edition of Portuguese Autosport magazine mentions FIA plans to stop, from 2011, new homologations for S2000 cars!

This is not so unlogic. Why did they take S2000 in the first place? I thought is was to be equal with the touring cars (like WTCC). I understand the WTCC will use a spec 1.6T engine from 2011: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76501

Maybe this is a cheap solution for regional rally cars as well? I think I would like this idea: spec engine for everything except WRC. :)

[Lousada]

I think I would like this idea: spec engine for everything except WRC. :)

What is the point of spec racing?

[HaCo]

What is the point of spec racing?

The driver and not the money :)

[bf1_IRL]

A WRC car has a lot of data logging anyway. Memory needed for data logging isn’t a problem. The slowest driver in Poland used 4 hours, 48 minutes and 2.8 seconds making true the stages. Converting this time to seconds is 17282,8 seconds. Making a log every microsecond means1000 * 17282,8 = 17.282.800 loggings. If every log needs a two-byte memory (which is a quite accurate figure), the memory needed is 34.565.600 bytes, which is 33.8 MB of memory. As you can see the memory needed for data logging isn’t big if you compare it with for example the USB sticks available nowadays.

Yip, on the WRCs I've worked on the data loggers don't need much capacity at all (surprising for all the channels of data they collect) When you download the data to the laptop, it is all transfered off the logger to the laptop so then the logger is empty and ready for the next group of stages :) (.. and if needs be, the data can be still analysed while the car isn't in service and can still be out on the stages logging live data as it goes..)

Getting back on topic, I would like to see parity eventually between the 1600 Turbo cars, S2000s and the traditional group N cars (probably with the help of the 33mm restrictor) so that any of them can be used and still fight for wins... bit of vareity :)

[Sulland]

Is 2011 now also in doubt for a new engine. Speculation now start that the 1,6T engine can be stillborn, and that we will have the same engine as today in a S2000 chassis.

If so, they could do as in F1, let manufacturers sell engines to others, but when is this tech reg saga end, and FIA decide. I know that Todt has a soft spot for rally, and thinks long term.

But seing the prices on S2000 cars now after a few years, they need to make the tech regs as simple and non breakable to keep the cost of the cars down to a minimum, for more teams and drivers to have a possibility to fight in the top !

[AndyRAC]

Is 2011 now also in doubt for a new engine. Speculation now start that the 1,6T engine can be stillborn, and that we will have the same engine as today in a S2000 chassis.

If so, they could do as in F1, let manufacturers sell engines to others, but when is this tech reg saga end, and FIA decide. I know that Todt has a soft spot for rally, and thinks long term.

But seing the prices on S2000 cars now after a few years, they need to make the tech regs as simple and non breakable to keep the cost of the cars down to a minimum, for more teams and drivers to have a possibility to fight in the top !

No, no, no!!

I can't believe what I'm reading.

So we'vw had months/years of S2000, S1.6T, and we all thought 2011 was going to be S1.6T, now this rumour. Please tell me this is a joke. New Manufacturers will not join if costs remain the same - I thought that was the whole point of the new regs. Honestly, with yesterdays launch of the WRC 2010 - the last thing we need is more Ford v Citroen for next year. They should have gone for S2000 for 3 seasons then S1.6T. I fear Ford/Citroen have far too much say in the future of the sport.

[Sulland]

The Germans seems to be in doubt: http://www.rallye-magazin.de/r/wm/d/n/d/2010/01/30/super-2000-mit-2-liter-turbo/index.html

[Wim_Impreza]

http://wrc.com/jsp/index.jsp?lnk=101&id=5311&desc=More%20WRC%20rule%20changes%20announced

Definitly some points I look forward to. I'm glad they're going to get rid of Super Rally, well, more or less. Should be 400 km the least for rally stage mileage instead of 300, but a maximum of 500 km is certaintly a good sign.

It's good to see some roots are steadily coming back :up:

There will be again SupeRally this year...

[MJW]

Firstly I would like to say that I think Jean Todt DOES have rallying at his heart and will do something positive to help its future. But it is worrying to read the story from rallymagazin.de about the possible extension of the current wrc cars, or even more worrying the fact that the current C4 wrc engine and Focus wrc engines could find their way into the S2000 based DS3 and Fiesta in 2011.
Whilst its well known that manufactureres are making, or at least planning smaller capaactity engined cars with a turbo for future production, the fact that we could face another delay or uncertainty is not good. My personal feelings were not in favour of traditional S2000 normally aspirated cars, but having read how Craig Breen described his new Fiesta, seen Mikko and Ogier on Monte, and more importantly seen the level of interest in the S2K cup in WRC and the fact that IRC had a good turn out in Monte, surely can FIA for the sake of rallying give a clear message that the current S2000 cars, Fiesta, Skoda, etc are the WRC cars for the next few years and say introduce the 1.6T later on in the decade?
If for marketing reasons, PSA group want Peugeot to concentrate on LeMans, and the fact that the 207 must be "mid life" by now, then surely it should be possible to supplant the 2.0N/A Peugoet 207 engine in the DS3?
Also when you read that there is supposedly a shortage of current wrc cars, - no C4 available for Galli and Rautenbach stories, surely it would be nice to get a new start in 2011 with S2000 cars? Marcus is testing a Fiesta today, Mikko has won in a Fiesta, give these cars their hour of glory and you could have Skoda in WRC as well. Uncertainty and delays are not what the accountants writing the cheques at VW, BMW Mini, and maybe an Asian manufacturer need right now.