Wow that's racist!!!

[MrJan]

Do you ever hear anything so racist that it goes beyond xenophobia, old fashioned values and general lack of knowledge to such a level that you can't really reply due to being so dumbstruck?

Now I work in the construction industry in the South West so I'm fairly used to right wing views which I don't agree with. However today I was alone in the office so was playing a bit of reggae on the laptop, not blaring out but just as a bit of background. Anyway one of my colleagues comes back in and I joke about turning up the music and getting the bass cranked. As expected he makes a commet about reggae being crap to which I said 'why do you say that' Expecting the usual 'well it just is' or 'too muc bass' sort of answer I could only stare dumfounded when he said "well for a start they're black".

Now I know that my views are really relaxed when it comes to race and nationality but I really can't get my head around the idea of writing off a whole genre of music based on the colour of someones skin. In my mind it's beyond the usual sort of moaning that you get from right wing types and just an excessively hatful thing to have said. The stupid thing is that he's a nice bloke, just having lived in small Devonshire towns for 40 or so years has had a fairly extreme effect.

[Daniel]

Sadly there are idiots like this everywhere.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I work with a Polish girl who has slightly broken English. A customer once asked her if we had Ayrshire Bacon. The Polish girl didn't know what Ayrshire was and the customer asked ' Where are you from?'. 'Poland'. The customer said, shrugging her shoulders 'tsk! Another one!'

We were all left gobsmacked!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Do you ever hear anything so racist that it goes beyond xenophobia, old fashioned values and general lack of knowledge to such a level that you can't really reply due to being so dumbstruck?

Now I work in the construction industry in the South West so I'm fairly used to right wing views which I don't agree with. However today I was alone in the office so was playing a bit of reggae on the laptop, not blaring out but just as a bit of background. Anyway one of my colleagues comes back in and I joke about turning up the music and getting the bass cranked. As expected he makes a commet about reggae being crap to which I said 'why do you say that' Expecting the usual 'well it just is' or 'too muc bass' sort of answer I could only stare dumfounded when he said "well for a start they're black".

Now I know that my views are really relaxed when it comes to race and nationality but I really can't get my head around the idea of writing off a whole genre of music based on the colour of someones skin. In my mind it's beyond the usual sort of moaning that you get from right wing types and just an excessively hatful thing to have said. The stupid thing is that he's a nice bloke, just having lived in small Devonshire towns for 40 or so years has had a fairly extreme effect.


The only quibble I have with your story is this attitude that being a racist is somehow a Right of center or Conservative leaning. It ISNT. I find that annoying and offensive. Yes, the Archie Bunker types tend to be right of center but there are a lot of racists who are left of center socialists too, just they couch their language differently.

Trust me....I hate racism and I don't even like the odd joke that has a slightly racist tinge. My golfing buddy, who happens to be black can tell jokes with the "n" word in there and laugh, and he finds it funny I cannot laugh at it, but it irritates me to no end. By the way, both of us are conservatives by nature..so there you go.

[chuck34]

Do you ever hear anything so racist that it goes beyond xenophobia, old fashioned values and general lack of knowledge to such a level that you can't really reply due to being so dumbstruck?

Now I work in the construction industry in the South West so I'm fairly used to right wing views which I don't agree with. However today I was alone in the office so was playing a bit of reggae on the laptop, not blaring out but just as a bit of background. Anyway one of my colleagues comes back in and I joke about turning up the music and getting the bass cranked. As expected he makes a commet about reggae being crap to which I said 'why do you say that' Expecting the usual 'well it just is' or 'too muc bass' sort of answer I could only stare dumfounded when he said "well for a start they're black".

Now I know that my views are really relaxed when it comes to race and nationality but I really can't get my head around the idea of writing off a whole genre of music based on the colour of someones skin. In my mind it's beyond the usual sort of moaning that you get from right wing types and just an excessively hatful thing to have said. The stupid thing is that he's a nice bloke, just having lived in small Devonshire towns for 40 or so years has had a fairly extreme effect.

What an @ss. Please don't let people like that make you think all Conservatives are like that. There are a-holes like that on both sides of the isle.

Plus reggae is good music. Although after a while it gets a bit tedious, like anything I suppose.

[Fred Basset]

I work with a Polish girl who has slightly broken English. A customer once asked her if we had Ayrshire Bacon. The Polish girl didn't know what Ayrshire was and the customer asked ' Where are you from?'. 'Poland'. The customer said, shrugging her shoulders 'tsk! Another one!'

We were all left gobsmacked!


Whats the problem?

[Roamy]

Wait a F minute !!

Lets break it down.
he sail black - correct
If he does not like black music does that make him a racist?
Are you going to tell me that I am racist if I don't like chinese music??

[Eki]

Wait a F minute !!

Lets break it down.
he sail black - correct
If he does not like black music does that make him a racist?
Are you going to tell me that I am racist if I don't like chinese music??
I didn't know music had color.

This guy is white and he sings reggae:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpbS81Wx98

[Daniel]

Whats the problem?
The problem is that myself as an immigrant get treated differently. If I don't know something it's OK because I'm Australian so that's more acceptable to people in the UK rather than being Polish for instance.

[Eki]

Yes, the Archie Bunker types
I don't think Archie was a racist deep down. It became obvious for example in the episode where he joined the Ku Klux Klan apparently without knowing what they were really about. I think he was just a bit simple and ignorant.

[Daniel]

I didn't know music had color.

This guy is white and he sings reggae:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpbS81Wx98
I think the Finns should stick to motorsport :mark:

[Drew]

Anyways left wing racism is "funnier", right wing racism is just so forward and blunt. Racist left wingers generally don't want people to think they are and will therefore do anything to make people think they are not racist like criticising anybody for even just mentioning black coffee or blackboard. Annoying but funny.

[Mark]

I didn't know music had color.

This guy is white and he sings reggae:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfpbS81Wx98

"Black music" is widely recognised as a genere, although it doesn't have much to do with reggae. And UB40 prove you don't have to be black :p

"Music of Black Origin" is the usually accepted term.

[Mark]

Whats the problem?

Sounds like you're the one with the problem.

[Daniel]

Sounds like you're the one with the problem.
The supreme irony is that Fred is an immigrant himself. So while it's OK to be intolerant of Polish people in the UK it's OK for a Brit to go to the US and open up a guesthouse there and so on and so forth. Sod off Fred! You're just an intolerant hyprocritical old fool who has no place in the modern world.

I don't know where Ayrshire is.... so ****ing shoot me.

[Mark]

I don't know where Ayrshire is.... so ****ing shoot me.

Another immigrant!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Whats the problem?

Seriously? I mean come on, seriously?

[Daniel]

Another immigrant!
Sorry? What was that? Couldn't understand it because of your strange accent :p

Everyone is an immigrant at some point. Being from Northern England you've probably got Scandinavian blood in you at some point. If you've not got Scandinavian blood you're probably German :p

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The supreme irony is that Fred is an immigrant himself. So while it's OK to be intolerant of Polish people in the UK it's OK for a Brit to go to the US and open up a guesthouse there and so on and so forth. Sod off Fred! You're just an intolerant hyprocritical old fool who has no place in the modern world.

I don't know where Ayrshire is.... so ****ing shoot me.

There are many English people who work in the same position as the Polish girl who also wouldn't know.

[Mark]

Everyone is an immigrant at some point. Being from Northern England you've probably got Scandinavian blood in you at some point. If you've not got Scandinavian blood you're probably German :p

Certainly in Britiain anyway which until 10,000 years ago was covered in an ice-sheet, nobody can go back further than that. And during much of that time occupation consisted of nomadic tribes who were constantly on the move following the seasons anyway.

Indeed, unless you an African living in Africa chances are you are the product of migration.

[Daniel]

Seriously? I mean come on, seriously?
Well at least younger people like yourself have been brought up better Jon :)

[Mark]

There are many English people who work in the same position as the Polish girl who also wouldn't know.

There are ignorant people all over the world! I don't know what the capital of Clakmannanshire is, in fact I don't even know how to spell Clakmannanshire. I do know where Ayrshire is mind.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Certainly in Britiain anyway which until 10,000 years ago was covered in an ice-sheet, nobody can go back further than that. And during much of that time occupation consisted of nomadic tribes who were constantly on the move following the seasons anyway.

Indeed, unless you an African living in Africa chances are you are the product of migration.

This is why I 'facepalm' at the BNP when they talk about indigenous Britains.

[A.F.F.]

There is a small racist in everyone. Period.

[Mark]

There is a small racist in everyone. Period.

True, but there is a difference in preferring people similar to yourself and out and out discrimination.

[A.F.F.]

What's the difference?

Only difference I see is how some are more hypocrites than others denying it.

[MrJan]

Wait a F minute !!

Lets break it down.
he sail black - correct
If he does not like black music does that make him a racist?
Are you going to tell me that I am racist if I don't like chinese music??


No he said that it was because they were black. It's fine to not like certain types of music but to do so based purely on the colour of someone's skin isn't. I'm not a big fan of generic Indian music because I don't like the sound of it, I wouldn't dream of dispelling it purely based on nationality or skin colour.

And I know that there are racists across the political spectrum, it's just a bit more in your face towards the right.

[Daniel]

There is a small racist in everyone. Period.
Exactly. It's just that some people are smaller so the racist makes up a higher proportion of them :p

I have particular countries which perhaps I like and others which I like more. But to actually go and be rude to someone or treat them differently because of that? No, I certainly wouldn't treat someone differently because of where they came from. I treat people differently when they treat me badly :)

[Daniel]

No he said that it was because they were black. It's fine to not like certain types of music but to do so based purely on the colour of someone's skin isn't. I'm not a big fan of generic Indian music because I don't like the sound of it, I wouldn't dream of dispelling it purely based on nationality or skin colour.

And I know that there are racists across the political spectrum, it's just a bit more in your face towards the right.
Agreed. I generally as a rule don't like music of black origin. Not because they's black but cos it's crap :p

[Fred Basset]

I work with a Polish girl who has slightly broken English. A customer once asked her if we had Ayrshire Bacon. The Polish girl didn't know what Ayrshire was and the customer asked ' Where are you from?'. 'Poland'. The customer said, shrugging her shoulders 'tsk! Another one!'

We were all left gobsmacked!

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable level

[chuck34]

Anyways left wing racism is "funnier", right wing racism is just so forward and blunt. Racist left wingers generally don't want people to think they are and will therefore do anything to make people think they are not racist like criticising anybody for even just mentioning black coffee or blackboard. Annoying but funny.

left wing racism is "funny"? So you think the Ku Klux Klan is "funny"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Byrd#Participation_in_the_Ku_Klux_Klan

[Daniel]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable level

WTF?

The original post from Jon was about GEOGRAPHY!!!! Not English skills!?!?!?!?!

My sister in law is Polish and her English isn't perfect but it's good enough. She may be "foreign" but she's a much nicer person than a lot of the natives in the UK. Shouldn't how nice someone is and what they contribute to society be rated a bit more important than English skills?

If Jon's workmate wasn't able to speak English to an acceptable level I very much doubt they'd be working in a job which involves them directly serving customers.

You seem to fall into the typical trap of a lot of British people, I don't like the place I live in so the whole country has gone to **** and I'm moving to another country.

Where I live we basically have English people, English speaking Welsh people and a few Welsh speakers. Personally I find this boring as there is not much diversity.

[Eki]

I think the Finns should stick to motorsport :mark:
Wow, that's racism!

[Daniel]

Wow, that's racism!
Can't really say much to that ;) Well AFF did say there's a little racist in all of us :angel:

[Eki]

"Black music" is widely recognised as a genere, although it doesn't have much to do with reggae. And UB40 prove you don't have to be black :p

"Music of Black Origin" is the usually accepted term.
In the 1950s rock and roll was "black music" and before that jazz was "black music". I don't think that nowadays anyone calls rock'n roll or jazz "black music", at least not anyone under 80 year old.

[Eki]

There is a small racist in everyone. Period.
And a small cow.

[Eki]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

Lucky you. Once in an American department store my colleague asked if they had mobile phones. The sales person didn't know what a mobile phone was until I asked for cell phones. In a restaurant my colleague asked a waitress where the toilets are, the waitress didn't understand until I asked where the restrooms are.

[Daniel]

Lucky you. Once in an American department store my colleague asked if they had mobile phones. The sales person didn't know what a mobile phone was until I asked for cell phones. In a restaurant my colleague asked a waitress where the toilets are, the waitress didn't understand until I asked where the restrooms are.
Go back to Finlandia with your mobile phones and your toilets! :p

[Tazio]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable levelWith all due respect The U.S.A. has enormous pockets where English is spoken intelligibly by the minority.
(and I'm not referring to proper grammar). Immigrants of the late nineteenth and early twentieth century felt duty-bound to learn proper English,
and I mean "pronto". The same cannot be said of immigrants, and refugees of the latter twentieth.
Is this a racist statement? I think not. Intolerance of the sort that John spoke of is.

[Easy Drifter]

Then there is Wade91. :D

[Tazio]

left wing racism is "funny"? So you think the Ku Klux Klan is "funny"?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senator_Byrd#Participation_in_the_Ku_Klux_KlanThe KKK is not, and never was a left wing organization. They were a bunch of southern biggots!
Dude you are seriously trippin'!

A quote from the same article:
In 1997, he told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics, but to "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena."[12] In his latest autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a member because he "was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision — a jejune and immature outlook — seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions."

Ku Klux Klan (kOO" klŭks klăn) [key], designation mainly given to two distinct secret societies that played a part in American history, although other less important groups have also used the name. The first Ku Klux Klan was an organization that thrived in the South during the Reconstruction period following the Civil War. The second was a nationwide organization that flourished after World War I. Subsequent groups calling themselves the Ku Klux Klan sprang up in much of the South after World War II and in response to civil-rights activity during the 1960s.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Please read page 49 of link I posted for a more succinct definition in referance to your assertion!

Chuck your cherry picking, and it's not amusing.
Now please explain to me what makes this organization Left wing by todays
definition.

[Hondo]

I would have thought Polish would be ethnic, not racist.

I don't have any problem with people disliking other people based upon race or ethnic group. Thats their choice and their loss or gain. To pass laws against it and pretend it doesn't exist is stupid.

I'm caucasion, live in the country, wear cowboy boots and a cowboy hat and don't care for country & western music. Wow, go figure on that one.

[Mark]

I would have thought Polish would be ethnic, not racist.


Although racism does specifically refer to discrimination to individuals based upon racial background, the english language is a fluid thing and it's perfectly acceptable usage to use racism as a term to refer to discrimination against someone who is not part of your ethnic group.

[Hondo]

So to that way of thinking a brit, not liking a yank because he is a yank, is racism although both are caucasion? That's twisted.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable level

Fred, I don't disagree immigrants should learn the language, but news flash for you. English is a hard language to learn as an adult. How many other languages do you speak? When the immigrant is done, he will likely have at least 2 under his belt, while you went to the US where they would think you were cultured with an English accent, even if you are not.

Canadians have always viewed this a little different. We may not like people bringing their language with them and NOT learning English, but we have never knocked people for keeping some part of their culture. We have probably been a little too ok with it since some groups make little effort to take on any Canadian customs or culture (such as it is). That said, their KIDS do, and the massive waves of immigration from India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, China/Hong Kong to the Greater Toronto Area have created a bit of a strain, but as time has gone on, their kids are coming out Canadian. Liking hockey, speaking English, heading down to the local Tim Horton's in the morning for a coffee on the way to work and speaking English.

Immigration follows the same story whether it is this century or the one before. There are growing pains, people don't understand the strange newcomers or their customs, but as generations go along, everyone manages to get along; at least those who don't have any real racist tendencies. I find there are very few real racists, and out of those, most are ones who bend over backwards to say they are NOT that. Denial is a wonderful thing. Some might put Fred in this group...but I wouldn't. Just would call him a little intolerant. AFF is right, everyone has a bit of that in em if they aren't careful.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The KKK is not, and never was a left wing organization. They were a bunch of southern biggots!
Dude you are seriously trippin'!

A quote from the same article:
In 1997, he told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics, but to "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena."[12] In his latest autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a member because he "was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision — a jejune and immature outlook — seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions."

Ku Klux Klan (kOO" klŭks klăn) [key], designation mainly given to two distinct secret societies that played a part in American history, although other less important groups have also used the name. The first Ku Klux Klan was an organization that thrived in the South during the Reconstruction period following the Civil War. The second was a nationwide organization that flourished after World War I. Subsequent groups calling themselves the Ku Klux Klan sprang up in much of the South after World War II and in response to civil-rights activity during the 1960s.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Please read page 49 of link I posted for a more succinct definition in referance to your assertion!

Chuck your cherry picking, and it's not amusing.
Now please explain to me what makes this organization Left wing by todays
definition.


Taz, explain where they are a right wing organization? This fallacy that racist groups are "right" wing organizations is equally false. Robert Byrd I suspect is part of a generation who were taught blacks were inferior and all the institutional racism of that era. The US history on race relations is pretty sad really, but if one is to point out which party was the party of keeping slavery and being more in favour of the "Jim Crow" mentality, it is the Democrats. They opposed Lincoln, and in the 30's that hadn't changed much as most blacks were Republican if they had a vote. It wasn't until the 60's that this myth of the Democrats being on side with the black minority all along was created.

As for the KKK, they were scum and their goals were heinous, but in the early part of the last century, a few important people supported them quietly. Byrd I don't believe was a racist with true hatred, but he looked down his nose at black society if he joined the KKK. I tell you this much, the Dem's beat up Storm Thurmond something awful for his "racist" past but they sure look the other way with Byrd....hypocritical? Yup...

[Tazio]

Then there is Wade91. :D He's with Chuck at a Starbucks in Cumberland sitting right under the "lynching tree" :laugh:

[chuck34]

The KKK is not, and never was a left wing organization. They were a bunch of southern biggots!
Dude you are seriously trippin'!

A quote from the same article:
In 1997, he told an interviewer he would encourage young people to become involved in politics, but to "Be sure you avoid the Ku Klux Klan. Don't get that albatross around your neck. Once you've made that mistake, you inhibit your operations in the political arena."[12] In his latest autobiography, Byrd explained that he was a member because he "was sorely afflicted with tunnel vision — a jejune and immature outlook — seeing only what I wanted to see because I thought the Klan could provide an outlet for my talents and ambitions."

Ku Klux Klan (kOO" klŭks klăn) [key], designation mainly given to two distinct secret societies that played a part in American history, although other less important groups have also used the name. The first Ku Klux Klan was an organization that thrived in the South during the Reconstruction period following the Civil War. The second was a nationwide organization that flourished after World War I. Subsequent groups calling themselves the Ku Klux Klan sprang up in much of the South after World War II and in response to civil-rights activity during the 1960s.

http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Please read page 49 of link I posted for a more succinct definition in referance to your assertion!

Chuck your cherry picking, and it's not amusing.
Now please explain to me what makes this organization Left wing by todays
definition.

You totally missed my point. The KKK is not "left wing" nor is it "right wing". However, Sen Byrd is a pretty left wing Senator. And he can do all the justifying he wants, but that doesn't change the FACT that he belonged to a racist organization. And don't give me this BS about the KKK being more "political" in nature in the 30's. It is, was, and always will be a racist organization.

People cherry pick all the time, on both sides. If someone is going to cherry pick a right wing racist and make the claim that all Conservatives/Republicans/Right Wingers must be racists, then I'll pick out a Liberal/Democra/Left Winger and ask the question, Why?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Geeze Chuck, Tazio just called you and Wade racists. Sound like a good Huffington Post forum member to you?? Taz...you have to stop watching Keith Olbermann, he is rotting your mind.

[chuck34]

He's with Chuck at a Starbucks in Cumberland sitting right under the "lynching tree" :laugh:

You sir, are way out of line! Do not even joke about me being racist, or sitting under a "lynching tree". I am NOT a racist and lynchings disgust me to no end. Slavery and the associated Jim Crowe period are the worst parts of the US. I wish they never would have existed, and would do anything to take them back. However, that is not possible so we must move forward, learning from our past mistakes, to make a better future for everyone.

Your attempt at some sort of humor is not appreciated.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You sir, are way out of line! Do not even joke about me being racist, or sitting under a "lynching tree". I am NOT a racist and lynchings disgust me to no end. Slavery and the associated Jim Crowe period are the worst parts of the US. I wish they never would have existed, and would do anything to take them back. However, that is not possible so we must move forward, learning from our past mistakes, to make a better future for everyone.

Your attempt at some sort of humor is not appreciated.

Chuck, I don't recall your part of Indiana having any lynchings, so Taz must be hallucinating again. That happens when you drink too much of the kool aid and believe in ancient myths.

Just think Chuck, you get Taz banned, the level of discourse on this topic just might get back into the land of intelligence again.

[chuck34]

Chuck, I don't recall your part of Indiana having any lynchings, so Taz must be hallucinating again. That happens when you drink too much of the kool aid and believe in ancient myths.


Full disclousure. Where I live now, Northern Indiana, I don't believe had any lynchings. However, where I grew up, Southern Indiana, did. That is a sad fact of my life. I never participated in any of that, too young. However, when I was in High School I found out that there was still a small KKK group in town. I heard that a few of my "friends" were in that group. I spoke to them to see why, and show them the light, but to no avail. I have not spoken to them since, nor will I.

[chuck34]

Just think Chuck, you get Taz banned, the level of discourse on this topic just might get back into the land of intelligence again.

I think I'll take the high road on this one. I don't want to give him what he wants. Plus I'd rather speak to the offending person rather than go crying to the authorities.

[Tazio]

Obviously both Chuck and Mark disagree with:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3


Fundamentalist Christians are generally considered on the right.

The Church of Jesus Christ Christian sounds suspiciously right wing!

But hey as Mark says I'm hallucinating :mark:

You guys slay me!
:rotflmao:

[Roamy]

The problem is that myself as an immigrant get treated differently. If I don't know something it's OK because I'm Australian so that's more acceptable to people in the UK rather than being Polish for instance.

Well you are certainly more "culturally" acceptable which is what people do to eliminate the racist tag. If people were truly non-racist there should be a Darfurian in every house to offset there tremendous problems. It seems that people are generally non racist when the race card is not affecting them. But none of these great non racists seem to be doing anything for the under privileged ethnic groups that exist in the world. Gee could this make the dictionary under "Hypocrite"

[Tazio]

You sir, are way out of line! Do not even joke about me being racist, or sitting under a "lynching tree". I am NOT a racist and lynchings disgust me to no end. Slavery and the associated Jim Crowe period are the worst parts of the US. I wish they never would have existed, and would do anything to take them back. However, that is not possible so we must move forward, learning from our past mistakes, to make a better future for everyone.

Your attempt at some sort of humor is not appreciated.
I think the irony of a Bohemian setting being the backdrop of racial atrocities
is quite effective imagery. ;)

[Roamy]

If you want to get rid of the "racist" tag you can just be like me a "equal opportunity hater" That way you don't have to try and bullsh!t people

[Mark in Oshawa]

Obviously both Chuck and Mark disagree with:

http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3


Fundamentalist Christians are generally considered on the right.

The Church of Jesus Christ Christian sounds suspiciously right wing!

But hey as Mark says I'm hallucinating :mark:

You guys slay me!
:rotflmao:

Gee Taz, you calling all Fundamentalist Christians right wing racists? How about the large number of born again Christians that voted for Obama?

One small group of radical Christian morons with racist tendencies doesn't mean all conservatives are racist. Your math is out.

Furthermore, lets put ole Jermiah Wright on the stand. You listen to his sermons Taz? The man hates white America. He HATES you. Listen to his sermon...and look at whom he supported in the election, and then tell me how a Christian Minister who votes left isn't a racist because he is from the left? Oh right...blacks are not allowed to be racist because of their past? BS......

You Taz only see what you want to see...and in many ways that makes you the racist you claim Chuck and I are.

[Mark in Oshawa]

My comment at the start of this thread was only that I am tired of this attitude that right wing voters are racists. IT is a fallacy that any one political stripe is racist. Both sides have at one point or another wrapped themselves in the flag of whatever nation and used xenophobic language and ideas to promote some goal at a particular time in a nation's history.

Heck...look no further than the UK. The first major industrial power in the world was the first to ban slavery, but anyone who has ever read Victorian novels or history knows how the upper classes felt about the "wogs" and inferiors (as they saw it). You can pretend your noble and self serving, while still being a racist. No political party or ideal has ever held much of a high ground historically on this one.....it is a shameful history in the US, UK, Canada, Australia, NZ or any other new colony. The Indians have been "racist" towards their Islamic/Pakistani minorities, not to mention the Sikhs. The Sinhalese in Sri Lanka just knocked out the Tamil movement in their country. You want to bet there isn't any racism going on there????

We wont even get into the Arabs and how they feel about Jews and Infidels as they see it. Lots or racist stuff there.

IT isn't a left vs right thing guys....it is part of the human condition and politicians of whatever stripe exploit your gullibility on it if you will let them.

[chuck34]

I think the irony of a Bohemian setting being the backdrop of racial atrocities
is quite effective imagery. ;)

You are an ass plain and simple. I don't think that labeling someone a racist, especially if you know nothing about the person, is wrong. No matter the "imagery".

[Mark in Oshawa]

You are an ass plain and simple. I don't think that labeling someone a racist, especially if you know nothing about the person, is wrong. No matter the "imagery".


Chuck..as I said, he see's what he wants to see...and in many ways that is what is he is accusing others of.

[chuck34]

Chuck..as I said, he see's what he wants to see...and in many ways that is what is he is accusing others of.

I was going to post something along those lines back to him. But then I realized that the irony of that situation would be totally lost on him.

Isn't it ironic ... don't 'cha think?

[chuck34]

I suppose what we are all really talking about are stereotypes in general, not just racism.

A stereotype would be me thinking that all Liberals are dirty, tree-huggin', pot smokin', acid takin', commune livin', tie-dye wearin', Birkenstock wearin', Dead listenin', Hippies. Not all Liberals fit this description, but some do. Therefore all Liberals must be dirty Hippies right?

[Tazio]

You are an ass plain and simple. I don't think that labeling someone a racist, especially if you know nothing about the person, is wrong. No matter the "imagery".Way to take the higher ground there Chuck :laugh:
Both you and Mark seem to be skirting the link that I posted.
I assume you must disaree with it.
Well I'm not condeming either one of you.
Chuck, how could you take my comment about Starbucks as an accusation that you were a racist?
Just a little defensive there Fella'
Now please explain to me the flaw of the assertions in:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

[chuck34]

Way to take the higher ground their Chuck :laugh:
Both you and Mark seem to be skirting the link that I posted.
I assume you must disaree with it.
Well I'm not condeming either one of you.
Chuck, how could you take my comment about Starbucks as an accusation that you were a racist?
Just a little defensive their Fella'
Now please explain to me the flaw of the assertions in:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

Sometimes an ass need to be called an ass. I don't think it was the Starbucks reference that is linked to racism, but you know that don't you? I may be a bit defensive, but I don't like anyone accusing me of being racist. Sounds like a good thing to be defensive about to me.

I'm not ignoring your link. My work blocks most of the content from said link. All I can see is that it has something to do with Domestic Terrorism. Want to talk about that? Have a look at this, and tell me that is only a right wing problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_Underground

[Tazio]

I suppose what we are all really talking about are stereotypes in general, not just racism.

A stereotype would be me thinking that all Liberals are dirty, tree-huggin', pot smokin', acid takin', commune livin', tie-dye wearin', Birkenstock wearin', Dead listenin', Hippies. Not all Liberals fit this description, but some do. Therefore all Liberals must be dirty Hippies right?
I'm talking about the KKK
I'm accusing them of being right wing extremists.
I have not accused you of being a right wing extremist.
That is what they are. You can twist my words however you see fit.
But at the end of the day they will still be right wing extremists
No, not all fundamentalist's Christians are bigots. Only all Fundamentalist
Christians that Identify with the KKK are!
I hope that clears things up for you!

[chuck34]

I'm talking about the KKK
I'm accusing them of being right wing extremists.
I have not accused you of being a right wing extremist.
That is what they are. You can twist my words however you see fit.
But at the end of the day they will still be right wing extremists
No, not all fundamentalist's Christians are bigots. Only all Fundamentalist
Christians that Identify with the KKK are!
I hope that clears things up for you!

The KKK may be associated with "right wing" now, but it most certainly didn't start out that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KKK

"The Klan resisted Reconstruction by assaulting, murdering and intimidating freedmen and white Republicans"

In the end, it doesn't matter what wing they are in. They are nut jobs. And the fact that they may or may not currently associate with the Republican party does not mean that all Republicans are racists or in the KKK, or whatever.

[Tazio]

Sometimes an ass need to be called an ass. I don't think it was the Starbucks reference that is linked to racism, but you know that don't you? I may be a bit defensive, but I don't like anyone accusing me of being racist. Sounds like a good thing to be defensive about to me.

I'm not ignoring your link. My work blocks most of the content from said link. All I can see is that it has something to do with Domestic Terrorism. Want to talk about that? Have a look at this, and tell me that is only a right wing problem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weather_UndergroundWhat a wonderful segway!
How convenient!
Now we’re talking about "The Weathermen"
This is rich!
:rotflmao:

As badly as you want to accuse me of implying you are a racist, the reality is I didn't! That argument is null and void.
Chill-Pill Chuck :laugh:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Way to take the higher ground there Chuck :laugh:
Both you and Mark seem to be skirting the link that I posted.
I assume you must disaree with it.
Well I'm not condeming either one of you.
Chuck, how could you take my comment about Starbucks as an accusation that you were a racist?
Just a little defensive there Fella'
Now please explain to me the flaw of the assertions in:
http://books.google.com/books?id=-qIb0IuQlkUC&pg=PA49&lpg=PA49&dq=KKK+Right+Wing+Extremists&source=bl&ots=z99kLif4ZN&sig=OiQ9icUIYNvLtyugN1swAZOFnIw&hl=en&ei=0DNCSoGsOI3WMIeSvcMH&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=3

I read the link. A book about a bunch of morons with relgious ties who believe in some of the same racist crap the Klan has been stirring up for years. They are no more right wing tradtionalist thinkers than Barack Obama is. They say things that might appeal to someone who thinks to the right who isn't paying attention, just like some people like the Weather Underground and Black Panthers are radicals on the left who might say something that a libreal might agree with.

No Taz, you put Chuck underneath the "hanging" tree as if he was one of them. I don't blame him for being pissed, but believing in freedom of speech, even stupid speech dictates he didn't go whining to a Moddy about being accused of it.

I am sick and tired of the left trying to portray people who might be right of center in their beliefs as somehow being racist. God knows they cant come up with a better debate than that?

[Tazio]

The KKK may be associated with "right wing" now, but it most certainly didn't start out that way.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KKK

"The Klan resisted Reconstruction by assaulting, murdering and intimidating freedmen and white Republicans"

In the end, it doesn't matter what wing they are in. They are nut jobs. And the fact that they may or may not currently associate with the Republican party does not mean that all Republicans are racists or in the KKK, or whatever.In today’s world they are overwhelmingly right wing
I'm glad we have found some common ground. Because if asked I would say they are nut-jobs first,
and probably couldn't even give you a discernable definition of a right winger or a left winger!
All I have to say is in this clusterfu<k of accusations and counter accusations about the clan is,
in the immortal words of Rambo, John, J
“They drew first blood sir! They drew first blood"
I hope this metaphor doesn't go over your head as well! ;)

[Drew]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable level

Fred, dónde vives el los estados unidos? Sabes que no hay ninguna lengua oficial, verdad?

Fred, where do you live in the USA? You know there's no official language right?

Most of the "euros" that come to the UK speak perfect english and I'm pretty sure they don't mind if you speak english even when they're speaking polish or whatever.

I live in Germany atm and my german is awful, truely terrible but the people are mostly nice about it, shame it can't happen in the uk...

[Mark in Oshawa]

In today’s world they are overwhelmingly right wing
I'm glad we have found some common ground. Because if asked I would say they are nut-jobs first,
and probably couldn't even give you a discernable definition of a right winger or a left winger!
All I have to say is in this clusterfu<k of accusations and counter accusations about the clan is,
in the immortal words of Rambo, John, J
“They drew first blood sir! They drew first blood"
I hope this metaphor doesn't go over your head as well! ;)


Taz...they are NOT overwhelmingly right wing at all. First off, provide proof...REAL proof. Then define racists. Then look around the world and look at some of the atrocities socialist nations have perpetrated on their population based on race and/or religion. I guess the USSR with their pogroms vs the Jews wasn't racism? Last I looked, the Socialists of the USSR were radical leftists. How about socialist government of China persecuting the Uighers? Communists are socialists that are just a little more disdainful of democratic conventions, but they are on the spectrum of the left just like the KKK and radical Christians in America are seen as part of the right.

By stating your assertion that more racists are right wingers, you are naive, and in a very ironic way, proving my point that the left is blind to their wackjobs.

One only has to look again to Jermiah Wright, the Black Panthers, The Weather Underground and people like Jesse Jackson who calls New York "Hymietown" to prove that idiots on are on the left too. See, I know about the radical Christians and KKK, you choose to ignore your problems.

[chuck34]

As badly as you want to accuse me of implying you are a racist, the reality is I didn't! That argument is null and void.
Chill-Pill Chuck :laugh:

At the very least you must see that saying I was "under the Lynching Tree" was in VERY poor taste and could be seen as implying I was for lynching.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fred, dónde vives el los estados unidos? Sabes que no hay ninguna lengua oficial, verdad?

Fred, where do you live in the USA? You know there's no official language right?

Most of the "euros" that come to the UK speak perfect english and I'm pretty sure they don't mind if you speak english even when they're speaking polish or whatever.

I live in Germany atm and my german is awful, truely terrible but the people are mostly nice about it, shame it can't happen in the uk...

If Fred stayed in Britain, would have voted BNP? Just a thought.....

[Drew]

If Fred stayed in Britain, would have voted BNP? Just a thought.....

For the record I wasn't suggesting that. But I always find it funny when British people complain about immigrants and the like coming in and ruining the country and then decide to solve this problem but immigrating. Especially to a country who's history, culture, cuisine and more are all based on immigrants and immigration. I'm just curious to hear what fred has to say about it all :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

For the record I wasn't suggesting that. But I always find it funny when British people complain about immigrants and the like coming in and ruining the country and then decide to solve this problem but immigrating. Especially to a country who's history, culture, cuisine and more are all based on immigrants and immigration. I'm just curious to hear what fred has to say about it all :)

The silence is kind of loud isn't it?

Heck...I would love to have some immigrants from the UK at this point. Much of Canadian culture was helped by the steady immigration from the "old" country, but now our Goverment has a form of racism in that if you are from a modern democracy, the bar is MUCH higher to emigrate to Canada than it would be from India, Pakistan, or South East Asia. I have no problem with people coming to Canada from these nations BUT why discriminate against Western Europe?

[Tazio]

At the very least you must see that saying I was "under the Lynching Tree" was in VERY poor taste and could be seen as implying I was for lynching.Chuck you have made it abundantly clear that you were offended by my metaphor. All I can say is you have never given me any reason to think, let alone post that you are a racist. I have no reason to think that Wade is a racist either. The allegory was not a veiled reference to your racial belief. It was meant to represent a dichotomy! That being a trendy Coffee-shop as a gathering place for Klan members, or any other extreme racists! I hope this will assuage any lingering doubts you have as to its intention. However, every single person on this forum including the moderators could interpret that line the same as you did, and it wouldn't change the spirit in which it was meant!
Peace My Man!

[Malbec]

For the record I wasn't suggesting that. But I always find it funny when British people complain about immigrants and the like coming in and ruining the country and then decide to solve this problem but immigrating. Especially to a country who's history, culture, cuisine and more are all based on immigrants and immigration. I'm just curious to hear what fred has to say about it all :)

I've always found it amusing that a paper like the Mail can have rants about immigration then on the next page you'll find a guide on how to buy a nice house in France, Spain or Italy and move there. How many Mail readers actually speak fluent French, Spanish or Italian and how many would see themselves as being immigrants? And what about the Brits who emigrate to America, Hong Kong or Dubai to seek a quick buck? Talk about hypocrisy.

[chuck34]

Chuck you have made it abundantly clear that you were offended by my metaphor. All I can say is you have never given me any reason to think, let alone post that you are a racist. I have no reason to think that Wade is a racist either. The allegory was not a veiled reference to your racial belief. It was meant to represent a dichotomy! That being a trendy Coffee-shop as a gathering place for Klan members, or any other extreme racists! I hope this will assuage any lingering doubts you have as to its intention. However, every single person on this forum including the moderators could interpret that line the same as you did, and it wouldn't change the spirit in which it was meant!
Peace My Man!

I understand that you were trying to set up some sort of dichotomy, or imagry, or a joke, or whatever. The point is you could have done that without lumping Wade (I don't know anything about him really) and I into that "picture". Choose your words wisely especially when dealing with a subject like this. Words I need to live by as well.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I've always found it amusing that a paper like the Mail can have rants about immigration then on the next page you'll find a guide on how to buy a nice house in France, Spain or Italy and move there. How many Mail readers actually speak fluent French, Spanish or Italian and how many would see themselves as being immigrants? And what about the Brits who emigrate to America, Hong Kong or Dubai to seek a quick buck? Talk about hypocrisy.


Drew...that is the English...it is their world, and on some level, they allow the rest of us to live in it I guess..lol...

[Tazio]

One only has to look again to Jermiah Wright, the Black Panthers, The Weather Underground and people like Jesse Jackson who calls New York "Hymietown" to prove that idiots on are on the left too. See, I know about the radical Christians and KKK, you choose to ignore your problems.I couldn't agree with you more, except the last part.
By saying that the KKK recruits from the right does not imply that I think they are the only racists in the world.
Or that Conservatives are by nature bigots. Please do not put words into my mouth.
I am aware that there are failings in the entire spectrum of political affiliations.
I never said there weren’t!

[Mark in Oshawa]

I couldn't agree with you more, except the last part.
By saying that the KKK recruits from the right does not imply that I think they are the only racists in the world.
Or that Conservatives are by nature bigots. Please do not put words into my mouth.
I am aware that there are failings in the entire spectrum of political affiliations.
I never said there weren’t!

You said Racists were OVERWHELMINGLY from the right. Go back and tell me how I am supposed to just glide on by that. I don't calling every liberal a commie or a racist, but there are people on the left that are communist and/or racists.

My point is racism is apolitical, period.

[Drew]

The silence is kind of loud isn't it?

Heck...I would love to have some immigrants from the UK at this point. Much of Canadian culture was helped by the steady immigration from the "old" country, but now our Goverment has a form of racism in that if you are from a modern democracy, the bar is MUCH higher to emigrate to Canada than it would be from India, Pakistan, or South East Asia. I have no problem with people coming to Canada from these nations BUT why discriminate against Western Europe?

Give the poor sod a chance to reply!

Well see, we europeans would come to Canada and take all the high paid jobs and then the south east asians would come and take the low paid jobs leaving the Canadians with nothing :rotflmao:

[Fred Basset]

Lucky you. Once in an American department store my colleague asked if they had mobile phones. The sales person didn't know what a mobile phone was until I asked for cell phones. In a restaurant my colleague asked a waitress where the toilets are, the waitress didn't understand until I asked where the restrooms are.

Completly different Eki and you know it. I'm talking about the population that come to the UK just cos its the "promised land" and yet don't want to learn the language/ cultural side (amongst other things) of being in a different country

The odd wordage difference of people in UK and USA is not the same at all and in fact turns into more of a talking point as people to get to find out about each other

Its amazing at just how quick some of you come out with the "R" word at the slightest opportunity :laugh:

[Eki]

The odd wordage difference of people in UK and USA is not the same at all and in fact turns into more of a talking point as people to get to find out about each other

And I'm sure that poor Polish girl now knows what Ayrshire bacon is (I still don't know how it's different from ordinary bacon).

[Fred Basset]

If Fred stayed in Britain, would have voted BNP? Just a thought.....

No way ever (clear enough for you)?

Its so nice to see that you can be labeled with the "r" word for the slightest thing nowadays.. you know what, you all that are doing the finger pointing could be described as such too considering how freely you throw that term around when you have no clue who i am, what i'm about or anything at all.. :laugh:

[BDunnell]

The problem is that myself as an immigrant get treated differently. If I don't know something it's OK because I'm Australian so that's more acceptable to people in the UK rather than being Polish for instance.

You are absolutely right about that. Does the BNP have anything against Australians, New Zealanders or South Africans coming to the UK? Has anyone ever smashed the windows of a Walkabout, like they have Polish shops?

Oh, and again I have to say what I always say — that the notion that 'you can't say anything any more' is utter bunkum of the first order. You can generally say what you like, but don't be surprised if changing attitudes, a perfectly natural phenomenon, mean that more people won't disagree vehemently with what you say than once might have been the case.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Give the poor sod a chance to reply!

Well see, we europeans would come to Canada and take all the high paid jobs and then the south east asians would come and take the low paid jobs leaving the Canadians with nothing :rotflmao:

ummmm that isn't going to happen....we aint THAT dumb. We are plenty dumb at times tho...

[Fred Basset]

For the record I wasn't suggesting that. But I always find it funny when British people complain about immigrants and the like coming in and ruining the country and then decide to solve this problem but immigrating. Especially to a country who's history, culture, cuisine and more are all based on immigrants and immigration. I'm just curious to hear what fred has to say about it all :)

Its nice to see how your twisting round my original post to suit your agenda Drew. Feel free to carry on twisting if thats what suits you


Oh and MIO, the silence was not deafening or whatever you put as i was actually out at a business meeting in Atlanta (where i still am too) if its any business of yours

[Malbec]

You are absolutely right about that. Does the BNP have anything against Australians, New Zealanders or South Africans coming to the UK? Has anyone ever smashed the windows of a Walkabout, like they have Polish shops?

To be fair the BNP have always been clear about this, that they are not at all opposed to migration to/from particular 'Anglo-Saxon' countries. I would have thought the countries you mentioned would be on that list. Its migration from non-approved countries, ie non-white ones, that they oppose.

They've also made it clear that they want to cut trade links to non-white countries which I found amusing, I'd like to see how they do without Japanese and South Korean investment and without loans from or selling bonds to wealthy Arabs....

[GridGirl]

The trouble with the UK is that it's so bloody old. Where, what and how do you define it's culture? It's not as though there are any old traditions that are passed down from generation to generation. There are probably forum members living in houses that are older than historic and important buildings in the US or Australia.

Then we could move on to modern culture. For example, do immigrants really want to get involved with the binge drinking culture which is quite apparent every Friday or Saturday night in a town near you? I'd hope not.

You can argue that maybe first generation immigrants don't get as culturally involved as you would hope but that can't be said in the majority of cases about their second generation off spring. My mother is English and my father is an immigrant. I'm proud of my heritage on both sides but to me I'm just English or British depending on the sporting occassion. The rest of the time I don't give it a second thought. Maybe it just me but at times I'm somewhat
suprised when I hear friends that are second or third generation immigrants speaking their native language. I just kind of forget that someone might be fluent in a different language just because I hear them speak in their thick Brummie accents everyday.

I don't know where in Scotland Ayreshire is either.

[BDunnell]

Its nice to see how your twisting round my original post to suit your agenda Drew. Feel free to carry on twisting if thats what suits you

I see no twisting in Drew's post. It's an entirely reasonable point. Where does the difference lie between Poles coming to the UK and you going to the USA? I would suggest there is very little.

[BDunnell]

To be fair the BNP have always been clear about this, that they are not at all opposed to migration to/from particular 'Anglo-Saxon' countries. I would have thought the countries you mentioned would be on that list. Its migration from non-approved countries, ie non-white ones, that they oppose.

Does the policy take in Aboriginal Australians, then?

Given that this is a party that opposes immigration from Poland and then uses a photo of a Spitfire bearing the markings of one of the Polish-manned RAF squadrons from WW2 on its literature, it is abundantly clear that we are not talking about the sharpest knives in the kitchen here.



They've also made it clear that they want to cut trade links to non-white countries which I found amusing, I'd like to see how they do without Japanese and South Korean investment and without loans from or selling bonds to wealthy Arabs....

They are probably pinning their hopes on the Isle of Man and Jersey.

[Daniel]

I see no twisting in Drew's post. It's an entirely reasonable point. Where does the difference lie between Poles coming to the UK and you going to the USA? I would suggest there is very little.
Want to hear a joke Ben?

What's the difference between a 747 and an ex-pat Brit?








The 747 stops whining when it gets to its destination :D

Ba dum tish!

[Fred Basset]

I see no twisting in Drew's post. It's an entirely reasonable point. Where does the difference lie between Poles coming to the UK and you going to the USA? I would suggest there is very little.

Then i'd have to say your wrong (omg shock horror) :laugh:

I posted an entirely reasonable post too :up:

[Drew]

Its nice to see how your twisting round my original post to suit your agenda Drew. Feel free to carry on twisting if thats what suits you


Oh and MIO, the silence was not deafening or whatever you put as i was actually out at a business meeting in Atlanta (where i still am too) if its any business of yours

The silence wasn't deafing when you didn't post, but it sure as hell is now after you posted.

[BDunnell]

Want to hear a joke Ben?

What's the difference between a 747 and an ex-pat Brit?








The 747 stops whining when it gets to its destination :D

Ba dum tish!

No, I don't want to hear a joke. Oh...

[BDunnell]

Then i'd have to say your wrong (omg shock horror) :laugh:

I posted an entirely reasonable post too :up:

And what is your detailed riposte to the allegation of hypocrisy regarding your position on this issue? I can't seem to find one, perhaps not surprisingly.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fred isn't into that Irony thing....

Funny, I suspect some of his American arms have greeted him with open arms while the likes of Fred didn't greet immigrants to the UK with the same joy.

[Fred Basset]

And what is your detailed riposte to the allegation of hypocrisy regarding your position on this issue? I can't seem to find one, perhaps not surprisingly.


Your arrogance is one thing that we can always count on :laugh:
Feel free to carry on as you are and slate me for being honest with my views cos i don't really give a damn to be truthful and right this minute i have more important things to be doing in my life :up:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fred...it isn't that you are not honest, we are just floored with your lack of awareness of how dumb you sound...

[Malbec]

Fred...it isn't that you are not honest, we are just floored with your lack of awareness of how dumb you sound...

From my experience its quite typical of some Brit ex-pats in the US.

I once met a British Indian couple who claimed to have moved to America to escape from racism before launching into a tirade about how their town was being ruined by dirty Mexicans who couldn't even speak English. Irony wasn't their strong point.

[BDunnell]

Your arrogance is one thing that we can always count on :laugh:
Feel free to carry on as you are and slate me for being honest with my views cos i don't really give a damn to be truthful and right this minute i have more important things to be doing in my life :up:

I cannot think of a single occasion on which you have done anything other than offer an opinion in a discussion and then, when you've been criticised for it, had a go at those criticising you without offering the slightest bit of detail or rebuttal of that criticism. Then you bugger off citing your busy life, as though the rest of us who continue having our debates are somehow workshy layabouts by comparison. Why bother posting on what is, after all, a discussion forum, if you're not willing to enter into a discussion?

[Fred Basset]

Fred...it isn't that you are not honest, we are just floored with your lack of awareness of how dumb you sound...


In what respect do i sound dumb? Please enlighten me

[Fred Basset]

I cannot think of a single occasion on which you have done anything other than offer an opinion in a discussion and then, when you've been criticised for it, had a go at those criticising you without offering the slightest bit of detail or rebuttal of that criticism. Then you bugger off citing your busy life, as though the rest of us who continue having our debates are somehow workshy layabouts by comparison. Why bother posting on what is, after all, a discussion forum, if you're not willing to enter into a discussion?

I don't have the time to do so and anyway, show me the forum rule that says i need to do as you suggest above

[BDunnell]

I don't have the time to do so and anyway, show me the forum rule that says i need to do as you suggest above

If you want your contributions to be thought of as constantly pointless and ill-founded rather than occasionally thought-provoking and insightful, then by all means plough right ahead with your current approach.

[Fred Basset]

If you want your contributions to be thought of as constantly pointless and ill-founded rather than occasionally thought-provoking and insightful, then by all means plough right ahead with your current approach.

But i have one thing in my favour that you don't have.. i don't try to belittle people and make them feel worthless like you try to do with your arrogant remarks all the time to me. I'm very happy thank you and enjoying life

Feel free to keep on attacking me as much as you like Dunnell..i'm just glad i'm not you

[BDunnell]

It doesn't seem to just be me holding this view, but never mind. I refer you to Mark in Oshawa's post. If you don't want people to criticise your opinions, either don't post them or try and back them up. That's all I have to say on the matter, not that it will ever get through.

[wedge]

Do you ever hear anything so racist that it goes beyond xenophobia, old fashioned values and general lack of knowledge to such a level that you can't really reply due to being so dumbstruck?

Now I work in the construction industry in the South West so I'm fairly used to right wing views which I don't agree with. However today I was alone in the office so was playing a bit of reggae on the laptop, not blaring out but just as a bit of background. Anyway one of my colleagues comes back in and I joke about turning up the music and getting the bass cranked. As expected he makes a commet about reggae being crap to which I said 'why do you say that' Expecting the usual 'well it just is' or 'too muc bass' sort of answer I could only stare dumfounded when he said "well for a start they're black".

Now I know that my views are really relaxed when it comes to race and nationality but I really can't get my head around the idea of writing off a whole genre of music based on the colour of someones skin. In my mind it's beyond the usual sort of moaning that you get from right wing types and just an excessively hatful thing to have said. The stupid thing is that he's a nice bloke, just having lived in small Devonshire towns for 40 or so years has had a fairly extreme effect.

Unless he's heavily into country or folk that guy is retarded. Music today owes a huge debt to Afro-Caribbeans.

[Tazio]

You said Racists were OVERWHELMINGLY from the right. Go back and tell me how I am supposed to just glide on by that. I don't calling every liberal a commie or a racist, but there are people on the left that are communist and/or racists.

My point is racism is apolitical, period.Perhaps you could produce a quote where I stated that. All I can find that is remotely close to that is:
The Church of Jesus Christ Christian is.
That is the name the KKK uses thes days, or at last check were!
I may have said That KKK were Overwhelmingly from the right, which they are!
Sorrrry! :)

[Tazio]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Ku Klux Klan is a racist, anti-Semitic movement with a commitment to extreme violence to achieve its goals of racial segregation and white supremacy. Of all the types of right-wing hate groups that exist in the United States, the Klan remains the one with the greatest number of national and local organizations around the country.

More than 40 different Klan groups exist, many having multiple chapters, or “klaverns,” including a few that boast a presence in a large number of states. There are over a hundred different Klan chapters around the country, with a combined strength of members and associates that may total around 5,000.

After a period of relative quiet, Ku Klux Klan activity has spiked noticeably upwards in 2006, as Klan groups have attempted to exploit fears in America over gay marriage, perceived “assaults” on Christianity, crime and especially immigration.
http://www.adl.org/learn/ext_us/kkk/default.asp?LEARN_Cat=Extremism&LEARN_SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=4&item=kkk


The Rise of the Ku Klux Klan

Right-Wing Movements and National Politics

Rory McVeigh

Table of Contents




$22.50 paper
ISBN: 978-0-8166-5620-2

$67.50 cloth
ISBN: 978-0-8166-5619-6





Rediscovering the Ku Klux Klan as a national movement in the 1920s

In 1915, forty years after the original Ku Klux Klan disbanded, a former farmer, circuit preacher, and university lecturer named Colonel William Joseph Simmons revived the secret society. By the early 1920s the KKK had been transformed into a national movement with millions of dues-paying members and chapters in all of the nation’s forty-eight states. And unlike the Reconstruction-era society, the Klan in the 1920s exerted its influence far beyond the South.

In The Rise of the Ku Klux Klan, Rory McVeigh provides a revealing analysis of the broad social agenda of 1920s-era KKK, showing that although the organization continued to promote white supremacy, it also addressed a surprisingly wide range of social and economic issues, targeting immigrants and, particularly, Catholics, as well as African Americans, as dangers to American society. In sharp contrast to earlier studies of the KKK, which focus on the local or regional level, McVeigh treats the Klan as it saw itself—as a national organization concerned with national issues. Drawing on extensive research into the Klan’s national publication, the Imperial Night-Hawk, he traces the ways in which Klan leaders interpreted national issues and how they attempted—and finally failed—to influence national politics.

More broadly, in detailing the Klan’s expansion in the early 1920s and its collapse by the end of the decade, McVeigh ultimately sheds light on the dynamics that fuel contemporary right-wing social movements that similarly blur the line between race, religion, and values.

Rory McVeigh is associate professor of sociology at the University of Notre Dame
http://www.upress.umn.edu/Books/M/mcveigh_rise.html

[Tazio]

THE Ku Klux Klan, the white supremacist movement known for racial murders and cross-burning in the American deep South, has set up a network of activists in Britain.
Following the revelation last week that MI5 officers had arrested British soldiers suspected of having links with the neo-Nazi Combat 18 group, it has also emerged that the police are concerned about the activities of the Klan, known by the initials "KKK".

The right-wing extremist group has established cells in Scotland, Wales, the English Midlands and east London in the past four years, and has been linked to a number of attacks on Jewish, black and Asian people.

Scotland Yard has confirmed that the group's activities are being monitored.

It is believed that the Klan aims to capitalise on the growth of Scottish and Welsh nationalism - areas it sees as truly white, Celtic and "untainted" with Jewish, black or Asian blood.


Klan membership has grown in strength in Britain since Allan Beshella, a former leader of the movement in the US, moved to south Wales in the late '80s.

American Klan leaders, known as wizards, helped form the British Knights of Ku Klux Klan. Beshella, who has convictions for child abuse and possession of guns, now claims to have recruited 2,800 members in Britain. Locals in the small former coalmining village of Caerau, Mid Glamorgan, have complained of several incidents there since the KKK was set up.

A branch of the Klan in South Wales was observed holding a candlelit procession just before Christmas, although members did not wear their traditional white robes and pointed hoods.

One local man, who has been monitoring KKK activities, said: "The Klan has established a conspiracy of fear here. They are intimidating locals into silence and recruiting youngsters from the dole into a life of violence and racial hatred."

The Klan's interest in Britain's Celtic fringe comes as no surprise, given its roots. Established in the defeated South after the American Civil War, the KKK took its name from the clans of Scotland and uses a highly selective view of Scottish history to support its philosophy.

It is believed that the movement started in the 1860s as a club for Confederate cavalry officers of Scots descent, before evolving into a secret society to inspire terror among freed slaves.

Some Klan rituals are based on those of the secretive Society of the Horseman's Word, once active in north-east Scotland.

In more recent days, the film Braveheart - in which William Wallace, played by Mel Gibson, defeats the English - has become cult viewing among Klansmen.

This has helped the KKK gain a foothold among some Scottish extreme nationalists. Last week Ian Christie, a self-styled Scottish knight of the Ku Klux Klan, was jailed for three months after threatening the Lord Provost of Dundee.

He had sent sinister threats to the civic head after the city council decided to rename a library in honour of President Nelson Mandela.

Referring to Mandela as a "cannibal", the letter claimed the Provost's "doom was sealed".

In England, the KKK has been expanding into areas with a high ethnic minority presence.

A cell was established in Walsall, in the English West Midlands, in January to intimidate the local Asian population.

A burning cross was discovered on a hill near the town and stickers supporting the group were plastered throughout the town centre.

In Rotherhithe, London, groups calling themselves KKK have demanded "lynchings".

Nick Lowles, co-editor of Searchlight magazine, which monitors extremist groups, said the Klan tended to attract some of the more extreme members of the right-wing British National Party.

"Many of the members we have identified are so dangerous that they have been kicked out of the British National Party - itself an organisation that attracts thugs," he said.

http://www.rickross.com/reference/kkk/kkk1.html

.

[Tazio]

Ku Klux Klan
The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable | 2006 | ELIZABETH KNOWLES | © The Oxford Dictionary of Phrase and Fable 2006, originally published by Oxford University Press 2006. (Hide copyright information) Copyright
Ku Klux Klan an extremist right-wing secret society in the US. The Ku Klux Klan was originally founded in the southern states after the Civil War to oppose social change and black emancipation by violence and terrorism. Although disbanded twice, it re-emerged in the 1950s and 1960s and continues at a local level. Members disguise themselves in white robes and hoods, and often use a burning cross as a symbol of their organization
http://www.encyclopedia.com/topic/Ku_Klux_Klan.aspx

[Mark in Oshawa]

In today’s world they are overwhelmingly right wing
I'm glad we have found some common ground. Because if asked I would say they are nut-jobs first,
and probably couldn't even give you a discernable definition of a right winger or a left winger!
All I have to say is in this clusterfu<k of accusations and counter accusations about the clan is,
in the immortal words of Rambo, John, J
“They drew first blood sir! They drew first blood"
I hope this metaphor doesn't go over your head as well! ;)


Read what you wrote. IN TODAY's WORLD they are overwhelmingly Right wing....I took that as racists in general and you never did claify it until you dug up five miles of interesting facts about the Klan, who yes...are Right wing but in what I read there, you were calling us all racists. I have heard many a liberal call out a right of center politician as a racist if they didn't like an idea....

[Tazio]

Read what you wrote. IN TODAY's WORLD they are overwhelmingly Right wing....I took that as racists in general and you never did claify it until you dug up five miles of interesting facts about the Klan, who yes...are Right wing but in what I read there, you were calling us all racists. I have heard many a liberal call out a right of center politician as a racist if they didn't like an idea....


In today&#8217]right wing[/b]
Well in the heat of the moment I could see how you could be mistaken,
as I am obviously referring to the Klan in that post. As for your experience with "many a liberal"
I can't take the blame for those I do not know, or profess to have that kind of inner knowledge of you!
Regaurdless of someone's political persuasion, I always judge character on a personal level
Peace My Man :up:

[steve_spackman]

Sounds like you're the one with the problem.

Just like our friends across the pond go on about the Mexicans...Do they have a problem too?

When i went down to Bournemouth to visit my brother i went round the corner and the high street was turned into a Polish town centre..I was like hang on where am i again.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Just like our friends across the pond go on about the Mexicans...Do they have a problem too?

Why is he the one with the problem? When i went down to Bournemouth to visit my brother i went round the corner and the high street was turned into a Polish town centre..I was like hang on where am i again.

Steve...you have a problem with the Polish in Bournemouth. Heck, Canada has been swamped with higher rates of immigration than any other western nation, and most of it is from Asia and settling in the Greater Toronto Area. Chinese, Tamil, Indian, Sikh. Not to mention a few Russians here and there. I have no issue with it in time as long as they adapt and speak some form of English within a generation or two, but it is a little disquieting to be in Toronto and see a whole block of signs in Chinese or in an Indian script. It is however part of living in a multicultrural mosaic. You don't like it, it is your issue....not mine or those who live in these enclaves.

[steve_spackman]

Steve...you have a problem with the Polish in Bournemouth. Heck, Canada has been swamped with higher rates of immigration than any other western nation, and most of it is from Asia and settling in the Greater Toronto Area. Chinese, Tamil, Indian, Sikh. Not to mention a few Russians here and there. I have no issue with it in time as long as they adapt and speak some form of English within a generation or two, but it is a little disquieting to be in Toronto and see a whole block of signs in Chinese or in an Indian script. It is however part of living in a multicultrural mosaic. You don't like it, it is your issue....not mine or those who live in these enclaves.

Did i say i have a issue with it..

[Mark in Oshawa]

ok..maybe you didn't....

[steve_spackman]

ok..maybe you didn't....

what does pee my off though is the fact that they come over to our shores, yet cant be bothered to speak English and expect us to cater for them...No chance mate!!

[Mark in Oshawa]

what does pee my off though is the fact that they come over to our shores, yet cant be bothered to speak English and expect us to cater for them...No chance mate!!

Gee Steve....that aint racist? It ever occur to you that their ability to speak English is going to be limited until they have been there a while. I know this might be a shock, but the majority of the world still doesn't speak English. Just giving you the update lad....

[Mark]

And a large area of Newcastle is predominately Pakistani / Indian, do I complain about it? No! I go there and buy lots of nice things :p

[leopard]

Pakistani food is hot and spicy, can you handle it? :)

[Mark]

Pakistani food is hot and spicy, can you handle it? :)

Let me think. .. Sometimes, yes :p

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I moved to a country where i could speak the language well.

The Euros that come to UK in a lot of cases can not speak the language or if they can, its very poor. All part of the reason i had to move away when i would walk up my high st and find that i was the odd one out listening to all the languages that were being spoken. To be able to enjoy the benefits of living in UK, you should be able to speak English well enough to be able to carry out a conversation.. whats wrong with my thinking that???

Its a sad day when someone considers on this forum that i'm the one with the problem when all i want is for people that come to the UK to enjoy the benefits of living there that i just think that they should be able to talk in English to an acceptable level


The Polish girl I work with can speak English well. She just has an accent that makes it noticeable that she isn't English. But the accent isn't the issue here. The issue is that the customer made it quite obvious that she disapproved of the Polish person being here, and referred to her as 'another one', which is just plain rude.

[Mark]

Same issue as many Brits going to live in Spain without proper knowledge of Spanish.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen house programmes where a couple want to move to live in Spain and find work there, and yet can't speak a word of Spanish!

[Mark]

The Polish girl I work with can speak English well. She just has an accent that makes it noticeable that she isn't English. But the accent isn't the issue here. The issue is that the customer made it quite obvious that she disapproved of the Polish person being here, and referred to her as 'another one', which is just plain rude.

I'd say rude was being rather too polite to the bigot.

[wedge]

what does pee my off though is the fact that they come over to our shores, yet cant be bothered to speak English and expect us to cater for them...No chance mate!!

How about expat Brits in France, Spain, Portugal who can't be bothered to learn the lingo and boost inflated pricing in housing so that the locals miss out?

[Fred Basset]

Gee Steve....that aint racist? It ever occur to you that their ability to speak English is going to be limited until they have been there a while. I know this might be a shock, but the majority of the world still doesn't speak English. Just giving you the update lad....

I think what Steve refers to are the ones that never want to learn the language of the country they moved to no matter how long they live there. It should be a a req that you learn the language over a period of time

[Mark]

It should be a a req that you learn the language over a period of time

It is.

[Fred Basset]

It is.

But you and me both know that theres a lot in UK that don't do it and have no intention of learning the language

[GridGirl]

You can argue that maybe first generation immigrants don't get as culturally involved as you would hope but that can't be said in the majority of cases about their second generation off spring. Maybe it just me but at times I'm somewhat suprised when I hear friends that are second or third generation immigrants speaking their native language. I just kind of forget that someone might be fluent in a different language just because I hear them speak in their thick Brummie accents everyday.

I'm quoting myself here but the language issue generllay nul and void after the first generation of immigrants.

Members of my dad's family where the first language is French start being tought English at school from about the age of 4 or 5. I have cousins who have never set foot on English soil yet speak better English than the natives. I talk to them in English rather than French due to fact that my French is now useless and their English is word perfect apart from the French twang that comes with it. It also helps that they watch alot of English speaking television.

[markabilly]

Certainly in Britiain anyway which until 10,000 years ago was covered in an ice-sheet, nobody can go back further than that. And during much of that time occupation consisted of nomadic tribes who were constantly on the move following the seasons anyway.

Indeed, unless you an African living in Africa chances are you are the product of migration.
actually notwithstanding other theories to the contrary, theroy exists that the current africans migrated from somewhere around central asia, or perhaps a bit to the west of India, with far lighter skin than what is present today, some 10,000 to 15,000 years ago

and only around 5,000BC, started developing darker skin

only immigrates that ought to be run out of the USA, are all those folks from great brit who can not even learn to speak english correctly

[steve_spackman]

I think what Steve refers to are the ones that never want to learn the language of the country they moved to no matter how long they live there. It should be a a req that you learn the language over a period of time

Thats my point.

If you are going to move to a different country to live or even travel, you should respect the countries culture and learn the language regardless...

[Daniel]

I don't get the problem. Do any of you realise how difficult it is to learn English when you're a mature age person? :mark: For some people it's also important to keep their language alive as well. My sister in law is teaching my nephew Polish and he's going to go to a Polish playgroup. Now personally I actually don't agree with that because I think he should learn English first and then Polish after that but that's just me.

[Easy Drifter]

A few years ago we used to make regular deliveries to Toronto. Our favourite restaurant was in Agincourt (part of Toronto) which by then was pronounced Asian Court. We went for the Dim Sum which we both enjoyed. We often were the only whites in the place. Line ups were common. The only staff who spoke English were the hostess and the Managers. Just the same all announcements were in both Chinese (Cantonese) and English. All Chinese staff. Seating capacity 368.
One time, after we had been going for years, we met a former Employee of mine who was visiting from Hong Kong. It was her who told us it was Cantonese they spoke. By this time there were a few more whites and the odd East Asian or Black eating there.
We were never treated any different than any other customer and some of the staff were starting to struggle with English. Some of them recognized us as semi regulars. Not hard when so few whites ate there!
Rita, my former employee, informed us that it was as good as any Dim Sum restaurant in Hong Kong.
I do miss Dim Sum. The closest is in Orillia (80k round trip) and no where near as good, especially selection. With them Dim Sum is a sideline as there is no way they could survive just serving Dim Sum up here.
We also learned to appreciate good Indian cooking thanks to a fellow employee when I worked in Toronto.
There are jerks of all colours and nationalities but the majority are fine people.

[ShiftingGears]

"Black music" is widely recognised as a genere,

That's news to me.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The only issue I have ever had is that in Canada, there is so much emphasis put on people coming here keeping their culture and adding to what is here, and it sends a message of "don't worry about the language, live with your group, and it will be a bit like home". The result? We have people in large parts of Toronto (Agincourt/"asiancourt") and in the suburb of Markham that are all from Hong Kong or southern China, and they never speak any English at all unless one of us Caucasians are in business with them. I think in time tho this will settle out. The second generation is speaking English and attaching themselves to the Canadian culture. It is no different in the suburb of Brampton, which is heavily Indian and Pakistani. The second generation is enrolling in playing hockey and playing baseball, not cricket; and one only has to listen to the comedy of Russel Peters, an Indian who grew up there to see how the culture of his home influenced him, but he has become a North American.

The Americans have the melting pot, we have the multicultural model, but in time, the natural desire to fit in will win out, if not with the first generation, certainly with the second.

[janvanvurpa]

What's the difference?

Only difference I see is how some are more hypocrites than others denying it.

The difference is this, and it came tome way back in 1979 when a gang of us from Eurpoe were driving thru the outskirts of Soweto outside Johannesburg.

One of the South Africa guys was defending the Apartheid system and and siad he'd seen some BBC program about the living condition of farm workers in California's Central Valley and he's saying in that weird Boer accent "What's the difference? The Kiefer's here live like animals, and the farm workers there in California do too, it's the same".
My mates who were also international cross idioter (2 Swedes and a Flemming) like me sorta said well, yeah ain't so different....what's the big deal?"

I said: if you or you or you is a individual who has some mild general xenophobia or worse outright overt racism, I can rightfully call you a racist and I can treat people as my equals if I choose but those seriously racist vote for Parties that then institute laws which then leave me no choice myself as to be a racist or not.
"Under your system, I have no choice but to be a racist or break your laws"

Amazingly the guy actually thought and blinked, and then accepted the difference and said "I'd never thought of that".

Always was baffled how so many are racists yet the real people f***ing them up the *** are generally of a different social class, more often than a different race.

[BDunnell]

Same issue as many Brits going to live in Spain without proper knowledge of Spanish.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen house programmes where a couple want to move to live in Spain and find work there, and yet can't speak a word of Spanish!

Precisely, yet this sort of thing always passes over the heads of those who criticise people coming into the UK.

[BDunnell]

Thats my point.

If you are going to move to a different country to live or even travel, you should respect the countries culture and learn the language regardless...

What does 'respect the country's culture' mean, exactly? To what are people expected to conform other than the laws of the land in question?

[donKey jote]

actually notwithstanding other theories to the contrary, theroy exists that the current africans migrated from somewhere around central asia, or perhaps a bit to the west of India, with far lighter skin than what is present today, some 10,000 to 15,000 years ago

and only around 5,000BC, started developing darker skin

sure, sure... there are also theories about the world only being 6000 years old... (bit like yer missus)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Malbec]

Same issue as many Brits going to live in Spain without proper knowledge of Spanish.

I've lost count of the amount of times I've seen house programmes where a couple want to move to live in Spain and find work there, and yet can't speak a word of Spanish!

There is one major difference between the foreigners who migrate to the UK and the Brits who migrate to Spain/France/Italy, age.

The young people who come to Britain are the least likely to require expensive government spending, they don't need education as they're too old and they're unlikely to need much healthcare provision since they're young. Apart from the odd social security which they have reduced access to, the government doesn't need to spend much on them, yet they pay a lot in taxes whether its income tax or through VAT whenever they buy something.

The oldies moving to Europe though are the exact opposite, they don't earn much if anything so don't pay much tax yet are coming to the age where they're likely to need a lot of medical care so take a lot of tax money out of the system.

In terms of the net financial contribution they make to the host country the migrants coming to Britain contribute whilst the Brits going to Europe to retire sponge off their host nation. Its no wonder the French are changing the law so that ex-pats have to pay for their own healthcare now.

[Malbec]

What does 'respect the country's culture' mean, exactly? To what are people expected to conform other than the laws of the land in question?

I've always wondered that. Part of the Dutch nationality test is that the candidate has to watch a video of naked sunbathers and gay couples caressing each other, if they express a negative response they don't get Dutch nationality.

So what happens if you're born and bred Dutch but happen to be homophobic or don't believe in public nakedness? Do those guys have their Dutch nationality revoked?

[BDunnell]

There is one major difference between the foreigners who migrate to the UK and the Brits who migrate to Spain/France/Italy, age.

The young people who come to Britain are the least likely to require expensive government spending, they don't need education as they're too old and they're unlikely to need much healthcare provision since they're young. Apart from the odd social security which they have reduced access to, the government doesn't need to spend much on them, yet they pay a lot in taxes whether its income tax or through VAT whenever they buy something.

The oldies moving to Europe though are the exact opposite, they don't earn much if anything so don't pay much tax yet are coming to the age where they're likely to need a lot of medical care so take a lot of tax money out of the system.

In terms of the net financial contribution they make to the host country the migrants coming to Britain contribute whilst the Brits going to Europe to retire sponge off their host nation. Its no wonder the French are changing the law so that ex-pats have to pay for their own healthcare now.

And quite right too. Worth mentioning also that the older Brits who become expats in Europe are probably the least likely to want to, or be able to, learn the local language.

[BDunnell]

I've always wondered that. Part of the Dutch nationality test is that the candidate has to watch a video of naked sunbathers and gay couples caressing each other, if they express a negative response they don't get Dutch nationality.

So what happens if you're born and bred Dutch but happen to be homophobic or don't believe in public nakedness? Do those guys have their Dutch nationality revoked?

The answer to the general point is that people who go on about immigrants 'not respecting our culture' have an absurdly homogenised notion of what our culture is, or should be. As the rest of us all know, culture isn't like that.

[Eki]

Part of the Dutch nationality test is that the candidate has to watch a video of naked sunbathers and gay couples caressing each other, if they express a negative response they don't get Dutch nationality.


Is that true, or just a joke or an urban legend?

[Mark in Oshawa]

Is that true, or just a joke or an urban legend?

I heard it was something the Dutch were thinking about using to gauge reaction in immigrants...but then again, that may have been BS. I cant remember where I heard it.

I do know to conform to one's countries culture means you have to define it. Canadians are in a constant identity crisis. Other than going to Tim Horton's for their morning coffee and watching hockey, we don't do much in common that is unique say from our cousins to the south at first glance....
It isn't a wonder the immigrants to this country are often wondering which customs are ours and which do we have in common with our American cousins.

[Daniel]

Precisely, yet this sort of thing always passes over the heads of those who criticise people coming into the UK.
With all due respect Ben, when you win two world wars on your own you deserve to be let off for a bit of ignorance and bigotry here and there :p

[donKey jote]

The answer to the general point is that people who go on about immigrants 'not respecting our culture' have an absurdly homogenised notion of what our culture is, or should be. As the rest of us all know, culture isn't like that.

Quite right. "Our culture" is of course a flexible term which is applicable to any of the infinite ways of grouping people - your family, your peers, your local community, your region, your religion, your tribe, your country, your blood type, your eye colour...

In my view, many of those who moan about "their culture" being eroded by "the others" in this way are a tad paranoid and quite insecure.
You (think you) see your values going down the drain and would naturally prefer to blame anyone but "your own".

Funnily enough, the homogenised notion of what "our culture" is tends to focus mainly on what we would see as the positive aspects and disregards the negative points. Nobody would blame immigrants for introducing "pub-brawl", "binge-drinking" or "teenage-pregnancy" culture... well, except maybe in some coastal regions in Spain :p :

I wonder where Steve would feel more threatened... in a Polish quarter or in a "true Brit hoody" part of town?

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[steve_spackman]

I wonder where Steve would feel more threatened... in a Polish quarter or in a "true Brit hoody" part of town?

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

I make a fairly reasonable remark about anyone who goes to live in other country should respect that countries culture and laws etc no matter where it would be, yet i get slammed for that. You lot are pathetic!

[steve_spackman]

I make a fairly reasonable remark about anyone going to live in another country no matter where that would be and should have respect for that countries culture and laws and i get slammed for it???

When i moved to the US i had to respect their laws and culture..Whats so bad about doing that? The issue is, is that alot of people move abroad, yet have no desire to respect the countries culture or laws..Thats what annoys me, so dont you dare slam me for that.

[markabilly]

sure, sure... there are also theories about the world only being 6000 years old... (bit like yer missus)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif
????

must be thinkin of tazio
mine is about 14 yo

[Roamy]

Thats my point.

If you are going to move to a different country to live or even travel, you should respect the countries culture and learn the language regardless...

So does this mean if I travel to Kabul I just jump off the plane with a AK47 and open up :p

[Tazio]

????

must be thinkin of tazio
mine is about 14 yo
Would you mind leaving my post-centenarian fetish out of this!
Thanks ;)

[A.F.F.]

I make a fairly reasonable remark about anyone going to live in another country no matter where that would be and should have respect for that countries culture and laws and i get slammed for it???

When i moved to the US i had to respect their laws and culture..Whats so bad about doing that? The issue is, is that alot of people move abroad, yet have no desire to respect the countries culture or laws..Thats what annoys me, so dont you dare slam me for that.

I agree 100%.

[Fred Basset]

I make a fairly reasonable remark about anyone going to live in another country no matter where that would be and should have respect for that countries culture and laws and i get slammed for it???

When i moved to the US i had to respect their laws and culture..Whats so bad about doing that? The issue is, is that alot of people move abroad, yet have no desire to respect the countries culture or laws..Thats what annoys me, so dont you dare slam me for that.


Its interesting that the ones throwing the insults around in this thread are the self righteous ones who would rather attack people like me and Steve for the beliefs we have....

[Daniel]

I make a fairly reasonable remark about anyone going to live in another country no matter where that would be and should have respect for that countries culture and laws and i get slammed for it???

When i moved to the US i had to respect their laws and culture..Whats so bad about doing that? The issue is, is that alot of people move abroad, yet have no desire to respect the countries culture or laws..Thats what annoys me, so dont you dare slam me for that.

There's a big difference between someone moving to a country and not respecting the culture and someone who just doesn't want to or has difficulty learning English.

[BDunnell]

Quite right. "Our culture" is of course a flexible term which is applicable to any of the infinite ways of grouping people - your family, your peers, your local community, your region, your religion, your tribe, your country, your blood type, your eye colour...

In my view, many of those who moan about "their culture" being eroded by "the others" in this way are a tad paranoid and quite insecure.
You (think you) see your values going down the drain and would naturally prefer to blame anyone but "your own".

Funnily enough, the homogenised notion of what "our culture" is tends to focus mainly on what we would see as the positive aspects and disregards the negative points. Nobody would blame immigrants for introducing "pub-brawl", "binge-drinking" or "teenage-pregnancy" culture... well, except maybe in some coastal regions in Spain :p :

I wonder where Steve would feel more threatened... in a Polish quarter or in a "true Brit hoody" part of town?

Excellent post, and well worth considering by those with contrary views.

[BDunnell]

So does this mean if I travel to Kabul I just jump off the plane with a AK47 and open up :p

That is actually a very good point indeed.

[BDunnell]

Its interesting that the ones throwing the insults around in this thread are the self righteous ones who would rather attack people like me and Steve for the beliefs we have....

Because you offer nothing to back it up, and still seem to be refusing to do so.

[Dave B]

One of the South Africa guys was defending the Apartheid system and and siad he'd seen some BBC program about the living condition of farm workers in California's Central Valley and he's saying in that weird Boer accent "What's the difference? The Kiefer's here live like animals, and the farm workers there in California do too, it's the same".
A guy I was training with several years ago had only recently moved to the UK from South Africa, and in the bar was recounting the story of how his father had clipped a farm worker with his truck on a country lane and left him for dead becuase he was "only a n****r".

You've never seen a roomful of people go silent and open-mouthed so quickly, it was like feeding time in a goldfish pond.

I had to disabuse him of the notion that this was in any way an acceptable view "over here", and although he was free to hold it he should expect his public-facing career to last long if he continued to vocalise it. He genuinely couldn't see what was wrong, thanks to twenty years of upbringing.

[Roamy]

Sweet - Just the place I want to live or even better allow people to immigrate from.

MOGADISHU, Somalia — An Islamic court in Somalia on Thursday cut off a hand and foot from each of four men convicted of stealing phones and guns, drawing hundreds of onlookers as the weeping men were punished at a military camp.

[Tazio]

Sweet - Just the place I want to live or even better allow people to immigrate from.

MOGADISHU, Somalia — An Islamic court in Somalia on Thursday cut off a hand and foot from each of four men convicted of stealing phones and guns, drawing hundreds of onlookers as the weeping men were punished at a military camp.I believe they are referred to as refugees.
We have a very large contingent in San Diego!
Is that a problem for you?

[Roamy]

Oh hell no plus I want to get a group from here!

I can't see clearly what is going on, but heavy smoke is rising from the ground and a horrible stench fills the air.
More people are streaming up the hill, some of them with firewood and maize stalks.
Suddenly an old woman breaks from the crowd, screaming for mercy. Three or four people go after her, beat her and drag her back, pushing her onto - what I can now see - is a raging fire.
Burned alive
I was witnessing a horrific practice which appears to be on the increase in Kenya - the lynching of people accused of being witches.
I personally saw the burning alive of five elderly men and women in Itii village.



And yes Tazio I have many problems with our immigration laws. And WTFAW the "Global Refugee" center

[Fred Basset]

Because you offer nothing to back it up, and still seem to be refusing to do so.

I don't know what your expecting me to "back it up" with? I made some observations, stand by my comments and i'm not refusing to do whatever you think i am.... this forum is not where i spen my life unlike you and a few others.. i have businesses to run and thats what i'm doing

If you don't like it "Ben"... tough :laugh:

Right now and for the foreseeable future, i know which country i'd rather be in, and thats here where i am for reasons given by me in a previous thread a few months back

[Hondo]

I don't know what your expecting me to "back it up" with? I made some observations, stand by my comments and i'm not refusing to do whatever you think i am.... this forum is not where i spen my life unlike you and a few others.. i have businesses to run and thats what i'm doing

If you don't like it "Ben"... tough :laugh:

Right now and for the foreseeable future, i know which country i'd rather be in, and thats here where i am for reasons given by me in a previous thread a few months back


Glad to have you Fred.

[Drew]

Glad to have you Fred.

Glad you'd take him :p :

[Fred Basset]

Glad to have you Fred.

Glad to be here!

Excuse me if i don't get too excited about 4/7 though :laugh:
Thats 4th July not 7th April btw :up:

[Eki]

I think the Finns should stick to motorsport :mark:
How about combining music and motorsport?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7K620u75PQ&NR=1

[donKey jote]

It should be a a req that you learn the language over a period of time
why?
so that you can understand what they're saying behind your back? :p :

[donKey jote]

What does 'respect the country's culture' mean, exactly? To what are people expected to conform other than the laws of the land in question?

steve ? :)

[donKey jote]

The issue is, is that alot of people move abroad, yet have no desire to respect the countries culture or laws..Thats what annoys me, so dont you dare slam me for that.
laws should be respected, everyone here would agree to that.
as for "a lot" of people... how many is too many for you? :dozey:

[Fred Basset]

steve ? :)

Lets say as an extreme, you move to UAE... you respect the culture
Its a pretty simple thing to do.. stop trying to stir the pot with the "sarcasm" smilie :)

[donKey jote]

Thanks Fred (I do realise you're very busy :) )
I think I know what you're getting at with regards to UAE, but that is an extreme. Respect the culture... do you mean integrate or seclude myself in the expat areas so they don't see me boozing and get offended?
But back to the UK... Say I were Polish and were to move to the UK, what aspect of your culture should I respect so as not to offend you ? :)

[BDunnell]

Say I were Polish, What would your advice to me be if I were to move to the UK?
What aspect of your culture should I respect so as not to offend you ? :)

Judging by some of the comments here, some apparently useful steps would be (a) tolerating casual racism, (b) promising not to utter a word of Polish ever again, and (c) conforming to some meaningless concept of a shared identity.

[Fred Basset]

Thanks Fred (I do realise you're very busy :) )
I think I know what you're getting at with regards to UAE, but that is an extreme. Respect the culture... do you mean integrate or seclude myself in the expat areas so they don't see me boozing and get offended?
But back to the UK... Say I were Polish and were to move to the UK, what aspect of your culture should I respect so as not to offend you ? :)


Sorry.. didn't know we were "back to the UK"... its like i said, whichever country you move to, you should respect the culture. Your offending me right now with your veiled accusations aimed at me so its end of story

[donKey jote]

well you left the UK and not the UAE to go to the US... :)
Sorry if you're offended, I'm just curious about what you and Steve really mean.
The case of the Polish have been brought up several times in this thread.
Any chance of a concrete example of what they should respect apart from the all-englobing "our culture" excuse?
I guess not since it's end of story :)

anyway got a plane to catch - I'm on vacation, going back to my cosy little English oasis in Spain... haven't seen my parents since Christmas

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Daniel]

Sorry.. didn't know we were "back to the UK"... its like i said, whichever country you move to, you should respect the culture. Your offending me right now with your veiled accusations aimed at me so its end of story
WTF is respecting culture and how do the Poles not do it for example?

Should they walk around going EN GER LAND! When there's a football match? Should they stop eating so much pork and start having a Beef roast with Yorkshire puddings every Sunday at lunchtime?

As with everything I'm reminded of of a Simpsons episode. Basically in the episode Springfield passes a bill to throw all illegal immigrants out and hardworking Apu is going to get thrown out so he goes to Fat Tony (the local mafia boss) and gets a fake passport and other fake documents and tries to pass himself off as an American and denies his Indian heritage. Basically it doesn't work and he's extremely unhappy.

What is so wrong with Polish people keeping their identity and having a sense of where they come from. Being someone of South African blood from Australia who lives in the UK I have a distinct sense of where I come from and who I am, denying people this right is just unacceptable.

http://homepage.mac.com/ibook238/.Pictures/apu-mets.jpg

Forget the Poles.

I'm sick to death of Anglo-Saxons ignoring the culture of the indigenous people of the British Isles. I wish they'd feck off back to Germany and leave England to its true people, the Celts.

Pack your bags Bassett, your ancestors were undoubtedly Germanic thieves and rapists.

[Daniel]

Those Anglo-Saxons! They're almost as bad as those non-American Indian Americans.

[BDunnell]

Forget the Poles.

I'm sick to death of Anglo-Saxons ignoring the culture of the indigenous people of the British Isles. I wish they'd feck off back to Germany and leave England to its true people, the Celts.

Pack your bags Bassett, your ancestors were undoubtedly Germanic thieves and rapists.

Excellent post. I suspect it will provoke another reaction along the lines of 'I'm so busy I can't be bothered to respond'.

[Fred Basset]

Excellent post. I suspect it will provoke another reaction along the lines of 'I'm so busy I can't be bothered to respond'.


No reaction, i'm not being led down the path you would like me to go

[markabilly]

Thanks Fred (I do realise you're very busy :) )
I think I know what you're getting at with regards to UAE, but that is an extreme. Respect the culture... do you mean integrate or seclude myself in the expat areas so they don't see me boozing and get offended?
But back to the UK... Say I were Polish and were to move to the UK, what aspect of your culture should I respect so as not to offend you ? :)

Simple--

First, quit making jokes about my sweetie who is not nearly as ugly as your old ass nor as nearly worn out by new zealand farmers as yours

Second, repect that fact that everyone in britain is an elitest, superior snob, w/o any backbone or balls, who spend their time whining about the ills of the world rather than doing anything about it.....

[Daniel]

No reaction, i'm not being led down the path you would like me to go

Translation. I've got no reasonable argument against what I've said so I'll say something about garden paths in a sorry attempt to convince myself and others than my latent racism is alright.

[Daniel]

I meant to say "against what you have said"

[Drew]

Forget the Poles.

I'm sick to death of Anglo-Saxons ignoring the culture of the indigenous people of the British Isles. I wish they'd feck off back to Germany and leave England to its true people, the Celts.

Pack your bags Bassett, your ancestors were undoubtedly Germanic thieves and rapists.

:rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[Fred Basset]

Pack your bags Bassett, your ancestors were undoubtedly Germanic thieves and rapists.

Actually they were South African, so yes your probably right :laugh:

[Daniel]

Actually they were South African, so yes your probably right :laugh:
It's funny, most South Africans and their descendants tend to make an effort not to be seen as being racist :mark: