Time for another split?

[MDS]

So in the last couple of weeks there has been some interesting "What if" conversations going on, and one that I've heard from a couple of people is, "What if the owners said no?"

No one I know associated with the sport is happy with Tony George's leadership and many of the car owners would like to see a return to the pre-split CART model. The theory is if Penske, Ganassi, NHL, AGR, KVR, and LDR all got together and hung together they could force George's hand by threatening a strike. Had those teams sat out Texas, or the Indy 500 there wouldn't be the resources available to replace them, and given George's rumored weakened standing with his family they could pretty much eliminate him from power.

The thought is they could grab control so quickly, again if all the big teams hung together, they take control and fix much of what George is doing wrong.

A CART ownership group could probably fix relations with SMI and get Loudon, Las Vegas and Phenoix back on schedule, smooth over the problems with Michigan and get them on the schedule, reach out to Montreal, bring in new chasis manufacturers and open up the rule book.

Again, its only back-channel rumors, but it could work. It wouldn't cost the teams that much to sit out for a week and it could cripple the league, and George is probably in the weakest postion he's ever been in.

[Jag_Warrior]

But then they'd have to come up with the money to support a series. I guess I don't understand why they'd want to control the IRL.

[beachbum]

Sure, why not. Since some fans don't seem to like anything about the IRL it is about time to kill big time open wheel once and forever. Another split would probably do just that.

I am sure the friends at the fanatics are salivating over the idea. They can then sit back and watch all of the great races of the past on their Beta VCR's.

[Wade91]

i thought it was awesome when the series re-united, i would only want see this happen if it bought the IRL back here to Nashville, like those other tracks you memioned

[SarahFan]

Not going to happen nearly as hostile as your suggesting.....

Andthe wheels are already in motion

[Chris R]

The product is too weak to suffer through another split...

One of the biggest differences between now and 1979/1980 is that the team owners are used to a "welfare state" now - not so much then...

Also, I would be curious if someone with more intimate knowledge of racing could give an idea of the relative cost of running a team in 1980 versus say 1992 versus 2009. obviously it is more dollars today - but is it RELATIVELY more expensive compared to the rate of inflation and the value of the dollars etc...??

As much as I love AOWR - I am afraid that unless someone pulls a major rabbit out of their hat that the sport is fundamentally dead. The split of 1995 left AOWR in critical condition, the economy has finished it off.... Sorry to be gloomy - but I have not seen anything this year that makes me feel different. The crowds are weak, the TV numbers abysmal, there are far to many rumors of money issues, there are not a ton of top quality sponsors, and you have serious rumors of unrest in the home office....

Somebody needs to turn this mess around - but I really do not think it is going to happen anytime soon - the sport is going to have to descend into semi-professional hobby status before it stands a chance of re-emerging as a serious player in the sports entertainment industry.....

[drewdawg727]

There are too many poor decisions and choices being made right now and not enough good news to keep things going.

We haven't had a SERIES sponsor for years. Many opportunities for one, but nothing. That is just a means to an end above all.

[DBell]

As much as I am dissatisfied with the current product, I don't think OW can survive another split. Somehow, the power guys like Penske, Ganassi, Honda and so forth, have got to get together and get a coherent and unified plan for making some changes for improved racing now and the direction the sport needs to go in the future. Jesus, if the F1 teams can find common ground, then the IRL should be able to do so also. Present it to IMS and hammer out a deal. Another separate series that doesn't include Indy is a waste of time, imo.

[drewdawg727]

I think that if nothing has been done thus far and the big guys like Penske and Ganassi aren't opening their mouths, then no one will. If their drivers are the ones that are constantly in the winner's circle, why would they care to want to change things?
The person who would probably want to start something and see change is Michael Andretti, and we all know how much of a hardworker he is.............not. His cars just fell off the map in recent years and the other teams have run away with it.

Next.

[MDS]

Not going to happen nearly as hostile as your suggesting.....

Andthe wheels are already in motion

I'm not saying its going to happen, but there is a good amount of unrest in the paddock, you'd be blind not to see it. There are a lot of rumors running around, and I've heard everything from a Kalkhoven/Penske/Haas buyout offer for the IRL, or the George family hiring Vickie O'Conner as IRL President and Tony Cotman taking Brian Barnhart's job, to everything staying status quo, to the IRL almost inking a two-race deal with a massive Brazilian colomeration of companies/government and a title sponsor, to no one being able to get a contract that extends beyond 2012 and talks with F-1 to hold the USGP at Indy on Memorial Day. How much of it is true, I don't know.

Chris, I'll make some calls and see if I can't get you an answer later tonight.

[The instant classic]

that idea came to me weeks ago about spliting again
after everyone was happy to see Tony George being kicked as CEO of indy, now we know thats fake, so its time for new leadership that us fans will like

[Bob Riebe]

So in the last couple of weeks there has been some interesting "What if" conversations going on, and one that I've heard from a couple of people is, "What if the owners said no?"

No one I know associated with the sport is happy with Tony George's leadership and many of the car owners would like to see a return to the pre-split CART model. The theory is if Penske, Ganassi, NHL, AGR, KVR, and LDR all got together and hung together they could force George's hand by threatening a strike. Had those teams sat out Texas, or the Indy 500 there wouldn't be the resources available to replace them, and given George's rumored weakened standing with his family they could pretty much eliminate him from power.

The thought is they could grab control so quickly, again if all the big teams hung together, they take control and fix much of what George is doing wrong.

A CART ownership group could probably fix relations with SMI and get Loudon, Las Vegas and Phenoix back on schedule, smooth over the problems with Michigan and get them on the schedule, reach out to Montreal, bring in new chasis manufacturers and open up the rule book.

Again, its only back-channel rumors, but it could work. It wouldn't cost the teams that much to sit out for a week and it could cripple the league, and George is probably in the weakest postion he's ever been in.
Anything without Indy is not even DOA, it is already rotting in the gutter.

Indy can survive without the big buck god wannabes, the wannabees cannot survive without Indy.
George can play that game better than they can, and I do not doubt in the least the people behind George have no love for ANY of the CART group and would bakc Tony.

[dataman1]

This from a former official of a series now dead who has no love for TG or IRL.

The sport is too week financially and in the eyes of most people home and abroad. The world economy is also in the hopper. The owners have already issued a letter of support for TG at Milwaukee.

Want to kill AOWR for a long long time? Dividing now would do just that IMHO.

[MDS]

Chris, to an extent, yes it is relatively cheaper to run a team today, even including inflation.

In 1995 Newman Haas they had a budget of roughly $27 million, adjusted for inflation that would be about $37.3 million today. That does not include race winnings of $ Today the team with the biggest budget is probably AGR and their entire budget is around $24 million, and they're running four cars out of that.

On the mid end of the scale its a bit different. Walker Racing won two races with Robby Gordon that year combined they probably had $15 million budget, and today that would cost you $20 million.

KVRT is capable of winning a race, and so far, all told with the three Indy entries their budget is around $8.5 million.

The thing is though, what is the cost of opportunity. Sure it was more expensive in 1995 and its cheaper to get in today, but in the early 90s sponsors were a lot easier to come by. When was the last time a major sponsor entered open wheel? Jim Beam? and where are they. It's more expensive because the odds of landing a major sponsor is drastically lower today because the ROI is a fraction of what it was in 1995 when Indy ratings were 12.2 or higher and the race average was around 2.0, not to mention crowd size.

For example, Camping World. When they ran John Andretti in the 2007 Indy 500 They were looking at a full time program in the IRL or a partial season in NASCAR with Robby Gordon for roughly the same amount of cash. The decided to go with Robby over AGR because the combined ratings of four Cup races and the Montreal Bush race with Robby far outweighed what they would have gotten with the 26 seat at AGR.

Yes another split would kill AOWR, but there is an increasing amount of people who believe that AOWR is dead anyway if there isn't a major change, and that change isn't going to happen with Tony George in the lead. I have said it time and time again, the split was a massive vote of no-confidence in Tony George, and its not like he's done much to prove himself capable.

Those who think TG still has the power to tell the big five to kiss off... consider this, the low end of the money he's in the red since starting the IRL is $300 million. With the economy the way it is, and the ratings and attendance where they are, do you really think he will have the backing should the owners demand a change?

I'm not saying there is a strike, but as I understand it some top folks are starting to apply pressure.

[chuck34]

I have said it time and time again, the split was a massive vote of no-confidence in Tony George.

Not sure I totaly disagree here. But what I thought happened was that TG asked for a seat at the table, and the CART boys told him to F' off. So he did and most of them came crawling back a decade or so later. Not sure I follow how that was a vote of no-confidence since TG never had power in the original structure? Maybe I'm missing something?

[garyshell]

What is being discussed in this thread is not a split it is a coup d'etat. There is a big difference. But I think this is just a bunch of hot air. If there was so much pent up tension as MDS suggests why was there a "vote of confidence" signed in Milwaukee by the very principles MDS thinks are behind the coup? This is all BS.

An a bit of history is in order here. MDS said:

I have said it time and time again, the split was a massive vote of no-confidence in Tony George.
That's just a tad bit of revisionist history, since TG instigated the split by forming his own league. The fact that CART players didn't join, might be seen as a vote of no confidence, but the split was clearly of TG's own doing.

Gary

[MDS]

Gary, I'm not saying its going to happen, it's just an idea, perhaps one whose time has come, but with Roger's attention focused on Saturn, Chip trying to keep his NASCAR team afloat, and Haas looking at buying Elan Motorsport it probably isn't that likely to happen. Still, the drivers are frustrated at the lack of passing, owners are worried about getting and keeping sponsors with the low attendance and ratings.

Chris, there was a lot of reasons for the split. TG had a non-voting seat on the CART board and there was a series of events that raised tensions all around. The owners were talking about shrinking the month of May to two weeks so there could be a race the first week in May. TG banned personal chefs from the speedway and required all food to be bought from his catering company, and there was a series of escolating costs at Indy that the owners found frustrating.

There were a lot of reasons for the split, but when you ask "Hey guys, follow me," and every single talented, expereinced guy goes the other way, it says something about your leadership skills.

[garyshell]

No, MDS it is an idea who's time has come and gone. As I said before the "rumors" are a bunch of hot air by some folks still screaming sour grapes over the unification a year ago. The whole idea is ridiculous, where is the money going to come from? How do you break away from the guy who controls the one race that is the only event that the sponsors are really interested in? As long as Madison Ave. controls the purse strings of the teams and as long as they are interested in sponsoring the Indy 500 and will put up money for other events ONLY so they can be involved with the 500, this idea of a coup (what you are suggesting is NOT a split) is a non-starter. Unless you can get Paul Allen or Bill Gates to fund the whole thing.

Gary

[SarahFan]

If there was so much pent up tension as MDS suggests why was there a "vote of confidence" signed in Milwaukee by the very principles MDS thinks are behind the coup?

Gary

come on gary...

that letter had little to do with Tony and everything to do with the team owners

[SarahFan]

I'm not saying its going to happen,t.


I'm sayin its already happening......its just not going to be hostile and adversarial....


its going going to wrapped up all pretty with a nice little bow on it

[V12]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, and I'm not an expert on the political side of the sport so I may be completely off target - but was the old early 90s CART setup where team owners all had a vote, and TG was pee'd that he didn't - and was that ALL he wanted?

In which case maybe he should have used his vast wealth to set up Vision Racing a decade or so before he actually did. Could have run a couple of American short track racers as well if he really wanted ;-) Still in any case I guess that idea isn't much use to anyone since the time machine hasn't been invented.

[Chris R]

Chris, to an extent, yes it is relatively cheaper to run a team today, even including inflation.

In 1995 Newman Haas they had a budget of roughly $27 million, adjusted for inflation that would be about $37.3 million today. That does not include race winnings of $ Today the team with the biggest budget is probably AGR and their entire budget is around $24 million, and they're running four cars out of that.

On the mid end of the scale its a bit different. Walker Racing won two races with Robby Gordon that year combined they probably had $15 million budget, and today that would cost you $20 million.

KVRT is capable of winning a race, and so far, all told with the three Indy entries their budget is around $8.5 million.

The thing is though, what is the cost of opportunity. Sure it was more expensive in 1995 and its cheaper to get in today, but in the early 90s sponsors were a lot easier to come by. When was the last time a major sponsor entered open wheel? Jim Beam? and where are they. It's more expensive because the odds of landing a major sponsor is drastically lower today because the ROI is a fraction of what it was in 1995 when Indy ratings were 12.2 or higher and the race average was around 2.0, not to mention crowd size.

For example, Camping World. When they ran John Andretti in the 2007 Indy 500 They were looking at a full time program in the IRL or a partial season in NASCAR with Robby Gordon for roughly the same amount of cash. The decided to go with Robby over AGR because the combined ratings of four Cup races and the Montreal Bush race with Robby far outweighed what they would have gotten with the 26 seat at AGR.

Yes another split would kill AOWR, but there is an increasing amount of people who believe that AOWR is dead anyway if there isn't a major change, and that change isn't going to happen with Tony George in the lead. I have said it time and time again, the split was a massive vote of no-confidence in Tony George, and its not like he's done much to prove himself capable.

Those who think TG still has the power to tell the big five to kiss off... consider this, the low end of the money he's in the red since starting the IRL is $300 million. With the economy the way it is, and the ratings and attendance where they are, do you really think he will have the backing should the owners demand a change?

I'm not saying there is a strike, but as I understand it some top folks are starting to apply pressure.

Thanks for looking into this - makes sense... What I was more curious about was the financial situation today relative to 1979 when CART was formed... We know the conditions of 1979 allowed enough financial opportunity for CART to get going and eventual prosper - would today's conditions allow the same or has racing gotten "too expensive"?

[markabilly]

This from a former official of a series now dead who has no love for TG or IRL.

The sport is too week financially and in the eyes of most people home and abroad. The world economy is also in the hopper. The owners have already issued a letter of support for TG at Milwaukee.

Want to kill AOWR for a long long time? Dividing now would do just that IMHO.
it is already dead, just lying comatose, waiting for its last breath.
it was killed a long time when the champ car split occurred, and in absence of a quick re-unite, well it was only a question of time before nascar started running the bricks, formula one, motorcycles and side shows like Danica started popping up....et tu brutus

[DBell]

Sorry if this is a bit off topic, and I'm not an expert on the political side of the sport so I may be completely off target - but was the old early 90s CART setup where team owners all had a vote, and TG was pee'd that he didn't - and was that ALL he wanted?

In which case maybe he should have used his vast wealth to set up Vision Racing a decade or so before he actually did. Could have run a couple of American short track racers as well if he really wanted ;-) Still in any case I guess that idea isn't much use to anyone since the time machine hasn't been invented.


Here is a couple of things to answer your question.

Nov 1991: George proposes to the CART board a new structure for Indy car racing to be called Indy Car Inc. It entails replacing the existing board of 24 car owners with a 5 person commission whose members are selected by IMS, with Leo Mehl serving as commissioner. CART rejects it.

Mid 1992: Tony George offered a voting seat on the CART board. He refuses it on his assertion that only one vote is not representative of what he feels the 500 is worth to the overall series. He accepts a non-voting seat.

Jan 1994: Englishman Andrew Craig (with sports marketing background) is placed as IndyCar (CART) President with intentions to expand the series beyond it's traditional base. George immediately resigns IndyCar (CART) board seat in protest.

July 1995: IRL announces 25/8 rule: 25 spots in the 500 are essentially reserved for IRL regulars. Tony George would later explain his reasons in a letter to the StarNews.

[dataman1]

Here is a couple of things to answer your question.

Nov 1991: George proposes to the CART board a new structure for Indy car racing to be called Indy Car Inc. It entails replacing the existing board of 24 car owners with a 5 person commission whose members are selected by IMS, with Leo Mehl serving as commissioner. CART rejects it.

Mid 1992: Tony George offered a voting seat on the CART board. He refuses it on his assertion that only one vote is not representative of what he feels the 500 is worth to the overall series. He accepts a non-voting seat.

Jan 1994: Englishman Andrew Craig (with sports marketing background) is placed as IndyCar (CART) President with intentions to expand the series beyond it's traditional base. George immediately resigns IndyCar (CART) board seat in protest.

July 1995: IRL announces 25/8 rule: 25 spots in the 500 are essentially reserved for IRL regulars. Tony George would later explain his reasons in a letter to the StarNews.

If my memory serves me well, add to the 1991 proposal that CART would also sanction and officiate at the Indy 500, replacing USAC which was another source of irritation to the CART teams.

[nigelred5]

If my memory serves me well, add to the 1991 proposal that CART would also sanction and officiate at the Indy 500, replacing USAC which was another source of irritation to the CART teams.

Why would that have been an irritation? I thought that they preferred to run under the same sanction and officials all season? USAC was the major reason for the formation of CART to begin with. I honestly don't remember that, but I don't remimber the minutiae of the fall out back then at this point. I know you're in a better position to remember that.

[dataman1]

Why would that have been an irritation? I thought that they preferred to run under the same sanction and officials all season? USAC was the major reason for the formation of CART to begin with. I honestly don't remember that, but I don't remimber the minutiae of the fall out back then at this point. I know you're in a better position to remember that.

Either I wrote my point incorrectly or you misunderstood. CART did not like USAC. One of the bargaining points was to take that irritation (USAC) away if the CART Board would accept his proposal.

[nigelred5]

yeah, just as little unclear. ;)

That's more or less what I remember. He would only allow CART to replace USAC sanction of the race if he got his way, ie total control with his hand selected board of 5.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Great thread boys....

It all comes down to this. Divided we fall, united we stand. For better or worse, we have to stay as one series, with Indy as a part of it. CART proved they eventually couldn't stick around without a prescence at Indy. However, the fact the smart guys who went the other way from Tony after 95 says a lot about their lack of confidence in Tony, but the ensuing chaos doesn't bathe anyone in glory either.

I don't believe Tony George can rebuild the IRL and OW racing in North America. I however think that people have to be VERY careful in finding his replacement and how it all should come about. A lot of arrogance has gotten this sport into this mess. A lot of intelligence will hopefully fix things.

The sport is at the tipping point...a split would kill it, but a surgical strike with some support from those inside the IMS board just might turn the tide. The teams are being VERY wise this time in how they deal with Tony. It ought to be fun finding out how this all shakes out.

[Chris R]

Great thread boys....

It all comes down to this. Divided we fall, united we stand. For better or worse, we have to stay as one series, with Indy as a part of it. CART proved they eventually couldn't stick around without a prescence at Indy. However, the fact the smart guys who went the other way from Tony after 95 says a lot about their lack of confidence in Tony, but the ensuing chaos doesn't bathe anyone in glory either.

I don't believe Tony George can rebuild the IRL and OW racing in North America. I however think that people have to be VERY careful in finding his replacement and how it all should come about. A lot of arrogance has gotten this sport into this mess. A lot of intelligence will hopefully fix things.

The sport is at the tipping point...a split would kill it, but a surgical strike with some support from those inside the IMS board just might turn the tide. The teams are being VERY wise this time in how they deal with Tony. It ought to be fun finding out how this all shakes out.

I hope you are right about the teams being wise this time - but if history repeats itself it is likely an illusion....

here is hoping for the best!

[Easy Drifter]

And quietly hiding on the sidelines hoping to get back to Indy are the antiques who run USAC. (Thinking not age.)

[Bob Riebe]

Why would that have been an irritation? I thought that they preferred to run under the same sanction and officials all season? USAC was the major reason for the formation of CART to begin with. I honestly don't remember that, but I don't remimber the minutiae of the fall out back then at this point. I know you're in a better position to remember that.CART did to USAC, what George did to CART.

It was also the fact that a VERY strong BOD, had died and suddenly the CART boys had balls they had lacked before.

[CCWS77]

CART proved they eventually couldn't stick around without a prescence at Indy.

What was proved is that they could not survive while someone else ran at Indy, called themselves IndyCar and claimed all the prestige and history. That is different then what you said and has different implications for exactly what the importance of Indy is.

This difference demonstrates how the reason for the split has not been solved even if one side did go out buisness. Tony wanted to build cars, rules, procedures all specifically to service his race. Teams wanted it to be just another race. I think the question is not if there will be a new split, but rather if the reasons for the original split will now be corrected. As long as the series is geared toward Indy being everything, I think not.

[garyshell]

As long as the series is geared toward Indy being everything, I think not.

As long as Madison Ave. thinks Indy is everything, it IS. It really is that simple.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

As long as Madison Ave. thinks Indy is everything, it IS. It really is that simple.

Gary
So you are saying the people whose father, grand father, great grandfather... still find/found Indianapolis to be "special", in numbers nothing else can come near, can be replaced at a whim by Madison Ave.?

Madison Ave. used to say what is good for General Motors, is good for the country; I think I would find a different seer to consort with.

[gofastandwynn]

So in the last couple of weeks there has been some interesting "What if" conversations going on, and one that I've heard from a couple of people is, "What if the owners said no?"

No one I know associated with the sport is happy with Tony George's leadership and many of the car owners would like to see a return to the pre-split CART model. The theory is if Penske, Ganassi, NHL, AGR, KVR, and LDR all got together and hung together they could force George's hand by threatening a strike. Had those teams sat out Texas, or the Indy 500 there wouldn't be the resources available to replace them, and given George's rumored weakened standing with his family they could pretty much eliminate him from power.

The thought is they could grab control so quickly, again if all the big teams hung together, they take control and fix much of what George is doing wrong.

A CART ownership group could probably fix relations with SMI and get Loudon, Las Vegas and Phenoix back on schedule, smooth over the problems with Michigan and get them on the schedule, reach out to Montreal, bring in new chasis manufacturers and open up the rule book.

Again, its only back-channel rumors, but it could work. It wouldn't cost the teams that much to sit out for a week and it could cripple the league, and George is probably in the weakest postion he's ever been in.

Where would the money come from to pay for this? The car owners? They are having a hard time filling the grid, and with Penske, Ganassi & Hass doing their other projects will tie up some of their potential funding.

How would relations with SMI get back ISC-owner Phoenix?

Plus from Milwaukee



Statement from IndyCar Series Team Owners: During the past week there have been many rumors and innuendos about our CEO Tony George. We, the IndyCar team owners, want to express our full support to Tony. As an innovator and leader of our sport, he continually strives to help and improve IndyCar racing, and for that we are exceptionally grateful.

AJ Foyt Racing
Andretti Green Racing
Dale Coyne Racing
Dreyer & Reinbold Racing
HVM Racing
KV Racing Technology
Luczo Dragon Racing
Newman Haas Lanigan
Panther Racing
Target Chip Ganassi Racing
Team 3G
Team Penske

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-millers-milwaukee-qualifying-notebook/

Sounds like you hate the leaders so much you are willing to kill the sport to get power and control? Who tried that before? :rolleyes:

[peasant]

Damn I hate that 'Cart failed because it didn't have Indy' garbage. CART didn't fail, it was destroyed because a moron was willing to spend endlessly to destroy it, and because it mismanaged itself to the point that it was dependant on manufacturers, and because 2 out of 3 of those manufacturers left it and attempted to demolish it in 2003. And even after that CCWS had to be abysmally managed to fail to rebuild from what was left.

[Chris R]

Damn I hate that 'Cart failed because it didn't have Indy' garbage. CART didn't fail, it was destroyed because a moron was willing to spend endlessly to destroy it, and because it mismanaged itself to the point that it was dependant on manufacturers, and because 2 out of 3 of those manufacturers left it and attempted to demolish it in 2003. And even after that CCWS had to be abysmally managed to fail to rebuild from what was left.

you have many good points - but Indy is still an important part of the success of AOWR - perhaps a well run CART could have survived - but without Indy I doubt it would have maintained its place at the pinnacle of American motorsport

[SarahFan]

Split proved 2 things

Cc/cart couldn't survive without the 500

The irl isn't flourishing with it

[chuck34]

Damn I hate that 'Cart failed because it didn't have Indy' garbage. CART didn't fail, it was destroyed because a moron was willing to spend endlessly to destroy it, and because it mismanaged itself to the point that it was dependant on manufacturers, and because 2 out of 3 of those manufacturers left it and attempted to demolish it in 2003. And even after that CCWS had to be abysmally managed to fail to rebuild from what was left.

You are thinking too hard about things. Just ask yourself why Penske, Ganassi, et. al. left for the IRL. Then you'll have the reason CART failed.

[chuck34]

Split proved 2 things

Cc/cart couldn't survive without the 500

The irl isn't flourishing with it

I would have to agree with this.

[dataman1]

You are thinking too hard about things. Just ask yourself why Penske, Ganassi, et. al. left for the IRL. Then you'll have the reason CART failed.

Let me take a guess "FOLLOW THE MONEY".

[Mark in Oshawa]

you have many good points - but Indy is still an important part of the success of AOWR - perhaps a well run CART could have survived - but without Indy I doubt it would have maintained its place at the pinnacle of American motorsport


This is what I have thought. It isn't that I think Indy is the be all and end all to racing in OW in North America, but CART/CCWS proved that unless they did everything right, they were going to have their sponsors erode and leave their cause to join Tony if for no other reason than the idea that the Indy 500 was the only OW race that mattered to them. It still is as just about every other race in the US save Long Beach is faceless and replaceable in this series. I know some of you might hate hearing that, but truly, very few IRL events save the Indy 500 and Long Beach have any resonance on a national scale. It is HISTORY that keeps the ball rolling and the sponsors tied in. In Canada, the loss of the Toronto race last year just about killed any interest in the IRL in this country. Toronto being the main media market for English Canada (75% of the population) had to be back on the sched and is. It is the HISTORY of the events being part of the culture of the city and being a media draw that makes an event work, and most of the IRL events are throwaway in nature beyond their media market.

So we know now we need Indy in this series. What we don't need, and what we didn't need was the owner of Indy using the series to cater to his event. As history has shown, this didn't work well for him, or the sport. What is more, while Tony is now in control of the IRL and the sport, what is unclear is how long this will last and where the money will come from. Racing consumes money. When times are good, sponsors feed the beast. Times haven't been good for OW racing for a few years and now we are in a recession. It is traditional events and unusual events that survive and keep sponsors in times like this. What do we have? The Indy 500, Long Beach, Toronto keeping the Canadian interest in the series (which helps since CART's best run and best paid events were often the Molson sponsored races in Vancouver, Toronto and Montreal) and a bunch of other events that have come and gone, some doing well, some not doing well.

This series needs stability, it needs one firm hand on the tiller and it needs to just ride out the storm. Stability will go away if the owners bolt or make a power play for control. Tony isn't the best example of the firm hand in the tiller and riding out the storm is tough if no one feels management is committed to the series (its not) and yet no one else can take the tiller. The events are little fiefdoms, often run by other players in the series (hello Andretti's) who all have a vested interest, but have learned that going to war with the Speedway wont work.

The roots of this disaster were sown in the lead up to the split, and we are still living with the aftermath.

I have become pessimistic in a sense, because it should have never come to this. It maybe is the reason my subconscious feelings for this series have it placing 2nd or 3rd on my priority list behind NASCAR and ALMS. I don't know where the series is going, and I desparately want it to get back to where it was in 1993 or so.

One thing though is obvious, no more splits. There isnt enough of the pie left. What we likely need is a quick and final coup d-etat that has the backing of enough of the Hulman board to keep the IMS crowd in the game, and get on with changing the course ever so slightly firmly. I realize this sounds like I am contradicting myself, but if done quickly and in a fashion leaving very little acrimony, it might be the only option. I have always wished Roger Penske could have been the man to do it, but alas, he likes being a team owner too much. Too bad it will only likely be in NASCAR and Grand AM the way things are going.....-+

[SarahFan]

its not going to be a split.... its going to be a restructure of ownership

big difference

[Chris R]

Some interesting information - by way of answering m own question...

I was watching some great old AOWR footage from 1978 on Youtube - Milwaukee I believe. It was interesting how little things have changed in some was - the still couldn't get through the first lap without crashing. There were some great teams and some pretty marginal ones. However, the stands were packed and the racing was good...

Anyway, the announcers kept referring to these "$65,000"race cars... Doing a little calculations on a resent value of money website that equals something south of $280,000 today. Since there was no such thing as an engine lease then I am assuming it was $65,000 for a car and engine - but I am not sure...

The article posted on another thread said the DP-01 was $295,000 without the engine - so in a nutshell, it is way more expensive to run an Indycar than it was when CART was formed even accounting for inflation etc..... So getting the costs down might still be the most important thing to do.....

[SarahFan]

http://www.grandprix.com/mole/mole21554.html

[chuck34]

http://www.grandprix.com/mole/mole21554.html

Good read Ken. I never thought about Jay Penske, but that makes A LOT of sence. I could see that happening. Rahal, not so much. Just doesn't seem "right" somehow, but who knows.

Aren't they supposed to release the approved F1 list tomorrow? I thought I heard the Speed guys say something like that at the race this weekend.

[IndyCarFan]

So you are saying the people whose father, grand father, great grandfather... still find/found Indianapolis to be "special", in numbers nothing else can come near, can be replaced at a whim by Madison Ave.?

Madison Ave. used to say what is good for General Motors, is good for the country; I think I would find a different seer to consort with.

It wasn't Madison Ave. that made that comment. It was GM's President at the time. And technically that's not what he said. According to Wikipedia:

In 1953, Charles Erwin Wilson, then GM president, was named by Eisenhower as Secretary of Defense. When he was asked during the hearings before the Senate Armed Services Committee if as secretary of defense he could make a decision adverse to the interests of General Motors, Wilson answered affirmatively but added that he could not conceive of such a situation "because for years I thought what was good for the country was good for General Motors and vice versa". Later this statement was often misquoted, suggesting that Wilson had said simply, "What's good for General Motors is good for the country."

[SarahFan]

Good read Ken. I never thought about Jay Penske, but that makes A LOT of sence. I could see that happening. Rahal, not so much. Just doesn't seem "right" somehow, but who knows.

Aren't they supposed to release the approved F1 list tomorrow? I thought I heard the Speed guys say something like that at the race this weekend.

I'm not sure about a list being released...

truth is I'm way to busy to follow anything besides Indycar.....I know i should, i know it would make me a more 'rounded' racing fan....

but in the end there is only so much free time in the day....

but i came across that story on another forum and thought it interesting... on many levels....a decent read

[SportscarBruce]

No one I know associated with the sport is happy with Tony George's leadership .

So explain the petition that circulated among the participants in support of Tony George?

The only thing that needs to be split at this point are a few lips....

[Mark in Oshawa]

That was a VERY interesting read, and I suspect neither Jay nor Bobby will take the bait. While Bobby would love to put Graham in an f1 car, I suspect he isn't willing to go broke doing it. He didn't even put his own kid in the car when it was time to go racing, he had Graham over in Newman Haas.

I suspect the US f1 team will do what it does without Bobby and Jay, but I do think Graham would be the best fit if they truly are committed to putting an American in the driver seat.

[Mark in Oshawa]

So explain the petition that circulated among the participants in support of Tony George?

The only thing that needs to be split at this point are a few lips....

I believe this is like the vote of confidence the owner of a sports team gives a coach being pummelled in the press before he changes his mind and fires him. The teams may not be able to fire Tony, but they are afraid the board might put someone in who is more of an issue for them to deal with. The devil you know.....

[Chris R]

Jay Penske makes a lot of sense - although his team isn't exactly setting the world on fire... I cannot imagine Rahal doing it - he has never been the best team owner/manager - not that he is bad - just not a Penske, Ganassi, Ron Dennis sort.....

[SarahFan]

So explain the petition that circulated among the participants in support of Tony George?

The only thing that needs to be split at this point are a few lips....

as i said earlier... the letter had little to do with Tony and everything to do with the owners

i find it hard to believe folks otherwise

[Mark in Oshawa]

as i said earlier... the letter had little to do with Tony and everything to do with the owners

i find it hard to believe folks otherwise

I think the owners wanted the world to know they were NOT the ones who are behind this effort to oust Tony. No...the sisterhood is out to get him....

[garyshell]

So you are saying the people whose father, grand father, great grandfather... still find/found Indianapolis to be "special", in numbers nothing else can come near, can be replaced at a whim by Madison Ave.?

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Gary

[CCWS77]

There is a difference between there being a sort of grass roots cultural recognition that the Indy 500 is the most important thing in open wheel, versus that being what is sold to the public, fans and media in a top down way. I just think a lot of people in racing including fans and even team owners have been duped into thinking it is the former when it is actually the latter. Look above in the thread, and you can see back as far as 1991 THAT was Tony George's agenda more then anything else. At the time all the CART owners disagreed and thought it was bad policy to focus on one race. What has changed? Did Indy gain prestige since then? Certainly not. He waged a decade long war in order to make them comply and devalue the rest of the sport. Team owners spouting how Indy is the most important thing and all that sponsors care about is perfectly natural after 5 or ten years of that. It is like Stockholm Syndrome, what else are they going to say? I think what we are seeing now, is that was never a healthy policy and that in itself was more responsible for the damage to the sport then was the actual organizational split. The Indy 500 is like a drug addiction now. It is the cause of the problem and yet all involved insist it is the only thing that will keep them going.

[SarahFan]

I think the owners wanted the world to know they were NOT the ones who are behind this effort to oust Tony. No...the sisterhood is out to get him....


that is certainly part of it.....

[MDS]

So explain the petition that circulated among the participants in support of Tony George?

The only thing that needs to be split at this point are a few lips....

From what I heard is that representatives of two teams asked, "Our sponsors and employees have heard the rumors and are restless? What can you do?" and a shrewd individual in the office suggested, "If there were a statement to come from the teams that Tony was in fact leading the sport in the right direction, that would be a public confidence boost. If there were such a statement all the team owners better all sign it too, or there's going to be a firestorm and reporters asking pointed questions about a split, and your sponsors wouldn't like that at all, would they?"

[Bob Riebe]

There is a difference between there being a sort of grass roots cultural recognition that the Indy 500 is the most important thing in open wheel, versus that being what is sold to the public, fans and media in a top down way. I just think a lot of people in racing including fans and even team owners have been duped into thinking it is the former when it is actually the latter. Look above in the thread, and you can see back as far as 1991 THAT was Tony George's agenda more then anything else. At the time all the CART owners disagreed and thought it was bad policy to focus on one race. What has changed? Did Indy gain prestige since then? Certainly not. He waged a decade long war in order to make them comply and devalue the rest of the sport. Team owners spouting how Indy is the most important thing and all that sponsors care about is perfectly natural after 5 or ten years of that. It is like Stockholm Syndrome, what else are they going to say? I think what we are seeing now, is that was never a healthy policy and that in itself was more responsible for the damage to the sport then was the actual organizational split. The Indy 500 is like a drug addiction now. It is the cause of the problem and yet all involved insist it is the only thing that will keep them going.

Because it is.

[Bob Riebe]

I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Gary
Separated fromt the quote it addresses, I am not surprised.

[markabilly]

Split proved 2 things

Cc/cart couldn't survive without the 500

The irl isn't flourishing with it

in a nutshell, BINGO

another split would be like chopping the head off a terminally ill patient

[garyshell]

There is a difference between there being a sort of grass roots cultural recognition that the Indy 500 is the most important thing in open wheel, versus that being what is sold to the public, fans and media in a top down way. I just think a lot of people in racing including fans and even team owners have been duped into thinking it is the former when it is actually the latter. Look above in the thread, and you can see back as far as 1991 THAT was Tony George's agenda more then anything else. At the time all the CART owners disagreed and thought it was bad policy to focus on one race. What has changed? Did Indy gain prestige since then? Certainly not. He waged a decade long war in order to make them comply and devalue the rest of the sport. Team owners spouting how Indy is the most important thing and all that sponsors care about is perfectly natural after 5 or ten years of that. It is like Stockholm Syndrome, what else are they going to say? I think what we are seeing now, is that was never a healthy policy and that in itself was more responsible for the damage to the sport then was the actual organizational split. The Indy 500 is like a drug addiction now. It is the cause of the problem and yet all involved insist it is the only thing that will keep
them going.


It always was the drug. It took the 12 year experiment to prove that point. At the end of the 12 years compare the list of sponsor names. Which series had the list of marquee sponsors and which had minor ones. And to be sure those marquee sponsors were not there so they could have their name on a car running in Iowa or any number of other tracks in the series. No, they were there for one place and one place only. I am not saying this is a healthy thing, just that it is the reality.

Gary

[garyshell]

As long as Madison Ave. thinks Indy is everything, it IS. It really is that simple.

Gary


So you are saying the people whose father, grand father, great grandfather... still find/found Indianapolis to be "special", in numbers nothing else can come near, can be replaced at a whim by Madison Ave.?

Madison Ave. used to say what is good for General Motors, is good for the country; I think I would find a different seer to consort with.


I have no idea what point you are trying to make here.

Gary


Separated fromt the quote it addresses, I am not surprised.


Even with it, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. I am not challenging what you are saying. I just don't get what your point is.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Even with it, I still don't understand what you are trying to say. I am not challenging what you are saying. I just don't get what your point is.

Gary
Quite simple really, I am stating--- that you must believe that the generations of fans who made Indy what it is, by paying exceptionally large amount of attention to it, even during the lessor years, really amount to nothing; whereas what ever Madison Ave. says Indy is, this is the only true opinion that matters. The fans amount to less than nothing.

[Chris R]

Quite simple really, I am stating--- that you must believe that the generations of fans who made Indy what it is, by paying exceptionally large amount of attention to it, even during the lessor years, really amount to nothing; whereas what ever Madison Ave. says Indy is, this is the only true opinion that matters. The fans amount to less than nothing.

The problem is that today's fans are not really even supporting Indy all that much (ratings down, attendance not what it used to be and overall popular press not what it once was)... I see where you are coming from - but what "made" Indy happened in an earlier time and today is different (not better or worse - just different).

As for fans - fundamentally, what you are saying is sadly correct - the Dodgers moved to LA, Darlington lost a race, Riverside closed, there is no French GP, etc. basically money matters and fans only matter if they bring the money... I don't like it -but it seems to be the way it goes.....

So, Indy can only remain "INDY" in the context of being able to support itself in the present socio-economic conditions. In today's world in can only THRIVE as part of a strong series. There is no race as big as Indy - but Indy cannot be the biggest race without other races to help it grow and to bring attention to it... Those races cannot "glorify" Indy if they are forced to be subservient to it. Those races must be able to make a name for themselves and make enough money to justify their existence in order to help carry on the Indy legacy in the current marketplace.....

CART helped Indy thrive because it brought racing to the streets - so to speak- street and road racing allows the fans closer to the cars than oval racing and I know for me seeing them run at the pathetic Meadowlands track and walking through the garage area made me a much bigger fans of indy... By the same token - those cars running at 220+ at Indy gave a a huge appreciation for the skill of the drivers handling those beasts on such a small tight course....

In short they need each other to truly thrive - they can probably survive seperately - but they cannot prosper...

[garyshell]

Quite simple really, I am stating--- that you must believe that the generations of fans who made Indy what it is, by paying exceptionally large amount of attention to it, even during the lessor years, really amount to nothing; whereas what ever Madison Ave. says Indy is, this is the only true opinion that matters. The fans amount to less than nothing.


No, I am not saying that at all. Quite the opposite. I am saying that those folks are precisely the reason why Madison Ave. is involved. But that does no change the fact that Madison Ave. is only really interested in the Indy 500 and willing to foot the bill for the rest of the year because it gets them access to the 500. My original reply to ccws77 that prompted your and my exchange was about the importance of the Indy 500 to the survival of the IRL over CART/CCWS. I stated this was primarily due to Madison Ave. myopic view toward the Indy 500. And whatever series had that plum, got the cubic dollars from the ad agencies.

Here is that exchange:
From CCWS77:
This difference demonstrates how the reason for the split has not been solved even if one side did go out business. Tony wanted to build cars, rules, procedures all specifically to service his race. Teams wanted it to be just another race. I think the question is not if there will be a new split, but rather if the reasons for the original split will now be corrected. As long as the series is geared toward Indy being everything, I think not.

From me:
As long as Madison Ave. thinks Indy is everything, it IS. It really is that simple.

The context of my reply was much more narrow than your interpretation. It was ONLY about the split and it's eventual outcome because of the sponsor money. Sure all of those fans' opinion matters, I don't discount that for one moment. And that fan opinion drives Madison Ave's interest in the 500, which in turn drove their favoring of IRL teams with sponsor money, which in turn drove the demise of ChampCar and CCWS.

Gary

[spiritone]

Good post chris. Always amazes me how people think that openwheel racing thrived because of indy. If that was true the irl should have won the war long ago. It is like you state, openwheel racing was strong because it was a good series. The combination of ovals, roadcourses, and street races brought in a lot of new fans to the series. The series that we have now has a long way to go before it becomes relevent in the sport pages again.

[peasant]

Good post chris. Always amazes me how people think that openwheel racing thrived because of indy. If that was true the irl should have won the war long ago. It is like you state, openwheel racing was strong because it was a good series. The combination of ovals, roadcourses, and street races brought in a lot of new fans to the series. The series that we have now has a long way to go before it becomes relevent in the sport pages again.

Well said.

[garyshell]

Good post chris. Always amazes me how people think that openwheel racing thrived because of indy. If that was true the irl should have won the war long ago. It is like you state, openwheel racing was strong because it was a good series. The combination of ovals, roadcourses, and street races brought in a lot of new fans to the series. The series that we have now has a long way to go before it becomes relevent in the sport pages again.


It always amazes me how people interpret the comment "an open wheel racing series can't survive without Indy" into "openwheel racing thrived because of indy". Just having Indy is NOT a guarantee of success, but not having Indy is a guarantee for failure in today's business model where open wheel teams are 100% dependent on sponsor money to survive. And where those sponsors want to be present at Indy.

Gary

[spiritone]

Once again we have the party line that without indy there won't be any sponsors. If that's what it boils down to then you do not have a viable series. To have a strong series you must have 16 or 17 stong races. All of those races must have some relevence to the whole series. If the series relies on only one race to bring it press than it is doomed. Kind of what we have right now.


Selling sponsorship to a real openwheel series must be modeled after ( i hate to say it, nascar) All of the races are important and even if there was no race in daytona the series would still not miss a beat.


The biggest thing missing right now is (1) An american driver winning races ( for whatever reason this is important to have a successful american series) (2) A well thought out plan on how to grow the series now. ( the plan that the irl head office seems to have is to vague and will the leaque still be around by the time the new cars and engines come on line.) (3) A better lineup of races ( How about cleveland, road america and of course my hometown of vancouver which always drew well.


Like it our not the irl has become a small domestic series with a dwindleling audience and bad management. For anybody that thought the merger was going to solve the problems, welcome to reality.

[Bob Riebe]

Good post chris. Always amazes me how people think that openwheel racing thrived because of indy. If that was true the irl should have won the war long ago. It is like you state, openwheel racing was strong because it was a good series. The combination of ovals, roadcourses, and street races brought in a lot of new fans to the series. The series that we have now has a long way to go before it becomes relevent in the sport pages again.

You are forgetting, or do not know, that CART inherited a series that had grown beyond Indy because of something called the Triple Crown.
That brought expanded interest to USAC and open wheel that had before been mostly Indianapolis, NOT road racing.

USAC tried road racing in the sixties and quit because A: the morons took a championship that consisted of road racing, big dirt tracks and oval,s and chopped it apart; B: The road races were mostly LOSING money for the promoters so, even though I think USAC made an error in quitting them, no one protested because few were showing up to watch them. (The one road race the new USAC road racing division tried was a miserable failure)

USAC restarted road racing BEFORE CART existed, so CART inherited a series that had been rejuvenated by the Triple Crown and road racing that drew notice from outsiders especially by having the balls to take U.S. open wheel racing to England.

With the failure of Ontario, and therefore; the death ofthe Triple Crown, CART
still inherited the popularity that had been built whereas; without the Indianapolis 500, whilst killing the major oval races it did have, it fell into a chasm of meaninglessness.
Bob
PS-- Of course there was that magnificent U.S. 500, which was a premonition to the final exposing of the cluster-****, that CART always had been.

[Bob Riebe]

Selling sponsorship to a real openwheel series must be modeled after ( i hate to say it, nascar) All of the races are important and even if there was no race in daytona the series would still not miss a beat.

Oh really, hmmm, well I guess you are correct because when NASCAR dumped on the Southern 500, absolutely no one really cared, now did they.
Bob

[Chris R]

You are forgetting, or do not know, that CART inherited a series that had grown beyond Indy because of something called the Triple Crown.
That brought expanded interest to USAC and open wheel that had before been mostly Indianapolis, NOT road racing.

USAC tried road racing in the sixties and quit because A: the morons took a championship that consisted of road racing, big dirt tracks and oval,s and chopped it apart; B: The road races were mostly LOSING money for the promoters so, even though I think USAC made an error in quitting them, no one protested because few were showing up to watch them. (The one road race the new USAC road racing division tried was a miserable failure)

USAC restarted road racing BEFORE CART existed, so CART inherited a series that had been rejuvenated by the Triple Crown and road racing that drew notice from outsiders especially by having the balls to take U.S. open wheel racing to England.

With the failure of Ontario, and therefore; the death ofthe Triple Crown, CART
still inherited the popularity that had been built whereas; without the Indianapolis 500, whilst killing the major oval races it did have, it fell into a chasm of meaninglessness.
Bob
PS-- Of course there was that magnificent U.S. 500, which was a premonition to the final exposing of the cluster-f^ck, that CART always had been.

Very true, I do not mean to sound like a CART diehard - AOWR history is full of both good and bad decisions by multiple sanctioning bodies etc. While it was before my time, I thought the idea of the championship containing dirt, road racing and paved ovals was pretty cool - but I imagine it was tough on teams and hard to work economically....

so it sounds like you feel the plane crash that killed many of the top USAC guys in 1978(?) is what really changed the course of things for the 1980's and beyond???? Do you think USAC could/would have done more or less what CART did in the 1980's in terms of growing AOWR?

[garyshell]

Once again we have the party line that without indy there won't be any sponsors. If that's what it boils down to then you do not have a viable series. To have a strong series you must have 16 or 17 stong races. All of those races must have some relevence to the whole series. If the series relies on only one race to bring it press than it is doomed. Kind of what we have right now.

Party line? What a laugh, you obviously haven't seen my rants against King George over the past 12 years. Like it or not, (and it appears you don't), the reality is that for many, many years Indy has been the linchpin by garnering significantly higher ratings and attendance than any other race in open wheel. That was true during UASC, CART and now the IRL. So explain you assertion that a series with heavy reliance on a single race with many other supporting races can't survive. Open wheel did quite well, until the idiot grandson had his vision which split and polarized the fan base.


Selling sponsorship to a real openwheel series must be modeled after ( i hate to say it, nascar) All of the races are important and even if there was no race in daytona the series would still not miss a beat.

That was not always the case. For many years they were in the same boat with Daytona defining the series. As other races grew in stature, the emphasis on Daytona was less. So what? They survived when Daytona was their linchpin.


The biggest thing missing right now is (1) An american driver winning races ( for whatever reason this is important to have a successful american series) (2) A well thought out plan on how to grow the series now. ( the plan that the irl head office seems to have is to vague and will the leaque still be around by the time the new cars and engines come on line.) (3) A better lineup of races ( How about cleveland, road america and of course my hometown of vancouver which always drew well.

(1) I don't buy the xenophobic concept for one minute, the racing public is not that myopic. Witness the huge response to ads by Target back in CART's heyday that featured Juan or Alex.
(2) We agree 1000% on this one.
(3) No argument there either.



Like it our not the irl has become a small domestic series with a dwindleling audience and bad management. For anybody that thought the merger was going to solve the problems, welcome to reality.

And for anyone who thinks a continuation of the split was ever going to solve anything you are deluding yourself. I did for the first ten years, then it became obvious by looking at the sidepods of the CART/CCWS cars that the sponsor money had gone to the IRL. And that without that money failure was imminent.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

You're going to need more American drivers, and better American drivers, if you're hoping to grab some of the NASCAR crowd. You're going to need better technology and more manufacturers if you want to grab the gearheads and elitists. Do both of these things, and you might be back in action.

[Bob Riebe]

Very true, I do not mean to sound like a CART diehard - AOWR history is full of both good and bad decisions by multiple sanctioning bodies etc. While it was before my time, I thought the idea of the championship containing dirt, road racing and paved ovals was pretty cool - but I imagine it was tough on teams and hard to work economically....

so it sounds like you feel the plane crash that killed many of the top USAC guys in 1978(?) is what really changed the course of things for the 1980's and beyond???? Do you think USAC could/would have done more or less what CART did in the 1980's in terms of growing AOWR?

One would think it could under NO circumstances been as bad as what happened, but then that is all wishful thinking.

If you want to guess what USAC engine and chassis rules would have been for ALL races, all you have to do is look at Indy rules.
There probably would have been true engines from Detroit, not badged imitations, raceing at ALL the races, not just Indianapolis. That would have had been a major difference.
Just like sports car racing at the time the engines in the some of the cars would have come from the same base as the ones available in passenger cars.

If it fell apart, it would have been for totally different reasons.

I can tell you that, that same board had elevated USAC stock cars to a level that Autoweek & Competition Press said had reached a level to give NASCAR serious competition.
Bob

[Mark in Oshawa]

First off, lets drop the USAC would have made things different argument if CART was never born. IT was, and the series hit its zenith in the early 90's which is precisley when someone with more money than brains decided he wanted more control.

Second, this myth that any series of this sort would survive without Indy is bunk. CCWS/CART might have made it if they could have convinced the ad agencies of NYC that the Long Beach GP was as big a deal as Indy, or the race in Road America was as big as deal as Indy, but I suspect that wasn't going to happen either.

Indy by itself is a unique property and it is the only reason Tony George had a chance in hell in making his series go to the point where he "won" the battle. That said, it has to be one of many races and it cannot overshadow all the decisions made for the good of the series either.

The concept of divide and conquer is what happened here. OW divided and NASCAR conquered.

I don't OW racing will ever be as hot as it was in 1992/93 when Nigel Mansell, the reigning world champion from f1 came over and raced and found competition a lot tougher than his days in f1. This series had it all going at that point, it had chassis variety up to a point, it had 4 or 5 engine options, it had a balanced schedule, and good racing. That formula is the one that will work, with Indy as part of that schedule.

You try anything else, and it may work after a fashion, but I doubt it.

The problem we have is so many years of damage. I don't know what will work in the manner we want because so many fans have gotten fed up and left. I am almost in that category really. The reality is this battle for control for OW has pretty much worn me out. I am more interested in the politics and intrigue than the actual racing on the track because much of what I have seen this year has been follow the leader racing. The IRL formula does NOT work as it stands right now and if they don't fix that, the argument of who controls the sport really will be the only entertainment.

We don't need another split. What we need is new cars, new management, new marketing, and an economy on the rebound.

[garyshell]

First off, lets drop the USAC would have made things different argument if CART was never born. IT was, and the series hit its zenith in the early 90's which is precisley when someone with more money than brains decided he wanted more control.

Second, this myth that any series of this sort would survive without Indy is bunk. CCWS/CART might have made it if they could have convinced the ad agencies of NYC that the Long Beach GP was as big a deal as Indy, or the race in Road America was as big as deal as Indy, but I suspect that wasn't going to happen either.

Indy by itself is a unique property and it is the only reason Tony George had a chance in hell in making his series go to the point where he "won" the battle. That said, it has to be one of many races and it cannot overshadow all the decisions made for the good of the series either.

The concept of divide and conquer is what happened here. OW divided and NASCAR conquered.

I don't OW racing will ever be as hot as it was in 1992/93 when Nigel Mansell, the reigning world champion from f1 came over and raced and found competition a lot tougher than his days in f1. This series had it all going at that point, it had chassis variety up to a point, it had 4 or 5 engine options, it had a balanced schedule, and good racing. That formula is the one that will work, with Indy as part of that schedule.

You try anything else, and it may work after a fashion, but I doubt it.

The problem we have is so many years of damage. I don't know what will work in the manner we want because so many fans have gotten fed up and left. I am almost in that category really. The reality is this battle for control for OW has pretty much worn me out. I am more interested in the politics and intrigue than the actual racing on the track because much of what I have seen this year has been follow the leader racing. The IRL formula does NOT work as it stands right now and if they don't fix that, the argument of who controls the sport really will be the only entertainment.

We don't need another split. What we need is new cars, new management, new marketing, and an economy on the rebound.


Oh, come on Mark. Stop talking sense. You are just taking the wind out of both sides sails!

...big ol' grin...

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

First off, lets drop the USAC would have made things different argument if CART was never born. IT was, and the series hit its zenith in the early 90's which is precisley when someone with more money than brains decided he wanted more control.
That is your opinion.

In my opinion CART had peaked years earlier, by ninety four it was already on a downward slope, with the help of USAC and what George did simply made it easier to blame someone.

Long Beach or Road America were all they could ever be, and wishful thinking they could be more is bs.
Money does not equal storied history, never could and never will.

[SportscarBruce]

The problem is that today's fans are not really even supporting Indy all that much (ratings down, attendance not what it used to be and overall popular press not what it once was)...

Ratings and press are mutually self-fulfilling. I don't need to go into the details, surely you're aware of the situation Mr. Chris. Fan support at the track is as strong today as ever, which is extraordinary considering the de-emphasis of the sport & event by the so-called press.

See the pictures;

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-as-0893.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0481.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0480.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0479.jpg

For Other Than NASCAR Racing a crowd of 250,000 at Indy, 100,000 at Texas, or 150,000 at Sebring merits less press coverage than a WNBA game. Amazingly, in 2007 the Houston Chronicle was more interested in covering a Busch race at TMS than the home event that same weekend, nevermind the fact a championship-caliber team calls Houston home. That is not a problem belonging to the IndyCar Series or ALMS. It is an issue of compromised integrity within the "mainstream racing press", pure and simple.

[dataman1]

Look like a lot of fans all wore camo grey clothing along the front stretch.

[Gluaistean]

It always amazes me how people interpret the comment "an open wheel racing series can't survive without Indy" into "openwheel racing thrived because of indy". Just having Indy is NOT a guarantee of success, but not having Indy is a guarantee for failure in today's business model where open wheel teams are 100% dependent on sponsor money to survive. And where those sponsors want to be present at Indy.

Gary

I rememember a few years back when Spa was about to be elimiated from the F1 Calender. Rumors started that F1 would have a tough time if it started losing races like this. F1 did not care. They created scenario from a position of strength that if you do not want us-good riddance- we have others to take your place.

F1 could lose Monaco and still would have a series with a replacement willing to pay just to say they have a F1 race.

You can make the 500 irrelevent to sponsors just as F1 did to tracks. The fans are the ones that drive the show.

You take away the teams and another 500 with unknown drivers like the first will kill off any series that tries it. Now is the time to make the break. Do it in conjunction with the FIA and FOTA fight. Cosworth and KK and GF must be looking forward to a couple of extra bucks from the three to four teams that will run their engines.

Everything is speculatative. There won't be a breakaway because when Danica leaves the series will fall apart and Nascar will be a monster again {sarcasm}

At any rate, where the heck are those CC now? Has that guy tried a new series that was supposed to start as Green something?

The cars are there and so are the motors. I know they are only bulit for road and street but, anyone, with a few extra bucks might start something viable

[garyshell]

I rememember a few years back when Spa was about to be elimiated from the F1 Calender. Rumors started that F1 would have a tough time if it started losing races like this. F1 did not care. They created scenario from a position of strength that if you do not want us-good riddance- we have others to take your place.

F1 could lose Monaco and still would have a series with a replacement willing to pay just to say they have a F1 race.

You can make the 500 irrelevent to sponsors just as F1 did to tracks. The fans are the ones that drive the show.

You take away the teams and another 500 with unknown drivers like the first will kill off any series that tries it. Now is the time to make the break. Do it in conjunction with the FIA and FOTA fight. Cosworth and KK and GF must be looking forward to a couple of extra bucks from the three to four teams that will run their engines.

Everything is speculatative. There won't be a breakaway because when Danica leaves the series will fall apart and Nascar will be a monster again {sarcasm}

At any rate, where the heck are those CC now? Has that guy tried a new series that was supposed to start as Green something?

The cars are there and so are the motors. I know they are only bulit for road and street but, anyone, with a few extra bucks might start something viable


You are really quick to spend someone else's money aren't you. Your analogy to F1 is flawed in that no single F1 race, even Monaco or Spa, dominates the sponsor interest like Indy does in American open wheel. None of those races by itself is that important to a sponsor. In open wheel, the only race they are interested in is Indy they tolerate the rest in order to be at indy. I wish it were not so, but it is.

I love you last line about a few extra bucks. Try several million extra bucks.

Sorry, but your's is a pipe dream. How do you propse to make Indy magically irrelevant to the sponsors? When the split occured even with no name races like the racing dentist, the sponsors were there with $$$ to spend. How do you do it now, in this economy?

Gary

[Gluaistean]

You are really quick to spend someone else's money aren't you. Your analogy to F1 is flawed in that no single F1 race, even Monaco or Spa, dominates the sponsor interest like Indy does in American open wheel. None of those races by itself is that important to a sponsor. In open wheel, the only race they are interested in is Indy they tolerate the rest in order to be at indy. I wish it were not so, but it is.

I love you last line about a few extra bucks. Try several million extra bucks.

Sorry, but your's is a pipe dream. How do you propse to make Indy magically irrelevant to the sponsors? When the split occured even with no name races like the racing dentist, the sponsors were there with $$$ to spend. How do you do it now, in this economy?

Gary

You can huff and puff and do whatever it is you're doing to make Indy so valuable to sponsors and the series. It isn't and another series can survive and thrive without it.

If it were so valuable to the sponsors then all the cars this year would have had sponsorship. The stands would have been full and the ratings would have been better.

To state that F1 races are not analgous to Indy plays straight into the xenophobic attitude that created the split in the first place.

[garyshell]

You can huff and puff and do whatever it is you're doing to make Indy so valuable to sponsors and the series. It isn't and another series can survive and thrive without it.

Sure, we have already seen two others try and remind me again, what happened to them? And how successful were they at getting sponsor money?


If it were so valuable to the sponsors then all the cars this year would have had sponsorship. The stands would have been full and the ratings would have been better.

Not sure how you make the leap of logic that value to the sponsors equates to full stand and higher ratings. All I have been saying is that it is the only race in American Open Wheel that really matters to the sponsors. The rest, in their eyes, are part of the package so they can be at Indy.


To state that F1 races are not analgous to Indy plays straight into the xenophobic attitude that created the split in the first place.

Clearly you did not understand my statement: "Your analogy to F1 is flawed in that no single F1 race, even Monaco or Spa, dominates the sponsor interest like Indy does in American open wheel." I did not say that F1 races are not analogous to F1, I said no SINGLE F1 race dominates the sponsor interest like Indy does with IRL sponsors.

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

You can huff and puff and do whatever it is you're doing to make Indy so valuable to sponsors and the series. It isn't and another series can survive and thrive without it.

If it were so valuable to the sponsors then all the cars this year would have had sponsorship. The stands would have been full and the ratings would have been better.

To state that F1 races are not analgous to Indy plays straight into the xenophobic attitude that created the split in the first place.
To say that F1 and the Indianapolis 500 are analogous seems ignorant at best.
Open wheel racing, beyond sprint cars and Indianapolis, in the U.S. has fleeting fame.
If it were otherwise, SCCA Formula A or even the AIS Indy cars would still be racing.

NASCAR and F1 could be analogous as both are run by narcissistic god complex wannabes-- with a lot of money.

Indy is about storied history, and money, nor any other arrogant pipe-dream, can replace storied history, to say it could or does is a bit naive.

[Chaparral66]

Ratings and press are mutually self-fulfilling. I don't need to go into the details, surely you're aware of the situation Mr. Chris. Fan support at the track is as strong today as ever, which is extraordinary considering the de-emphasis of the sport & event by the so-called press.

See the pictures;

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-as-0893.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0481.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0480.jpg
http://www.motorsport.com/photos/indycar/2009/ind/indycar-2009-ind-mj-0479.jpg

For Other Than NASCAR Racing a crowd of 250,000 at Indy, 100,000 at Texas, or 150,000 at Sebring merits less press coverage than a WNBA game. Amazingly, in 2007 the Houston Chronicle was more interested in covering a Busch race at TMS than the home event that same weekend, nevermind the fact a championship-caliber team calls Houston home. That is not a problem belonging to the IndyCar Series or ALMS. It is an issue of compromised integrity within the "mainstream racing press", pure and simple.

I agree that there are major issues with the lack of respect motorsports in general gets from the masinstream media. That same media only relatively recently and grudgingly acknowledges that NASCAR even exists, but it's still and issue. The New York Times, a paper known for having great pride in its command of the language, nonetheless insists on referring to NASCAR as an actual word, Nascar, and not like it refers to other league that use initials like the NFL, NBA, NHL, MLB, et al. That's indicative of that lack of respect.

However, I disagree about your view on the strength of support for Indy Car racing. The IRL still needs to do some work in its promotion. Indy had a good crowd this year, but the Indy 500 should be sold out, with a waiting list of people to get in. This is a lousy economy (though some signs of recovery are emerging) but let's be real about it. There should be no empty seats at Indy and it's that simple. This is an example of the long term costs of the split, IMHO.

[Mark in Oshawa]

That is your opinion.

In my opinion CART had peaked years earlier, by ninety four it was already on a downward slope, with the help of USAC and what George did simply made it easier to blame someone.

Long Beach or Road America were all they could ever be, and wishful thinking they could be more is bs.
Money does not equal storied history, never could and never will.

If CART was on the downslope in 94, show me how. THAT is just your opinion but the ratings, variety of chassis and engines, the TV coverage quality AND the international attention were there until the split.

Show me where that is a downslope and I can introduce you to Tony George. It would seem you and he would be the only two guys who thought that way at that time.


Bob, you beat this drum for laissez faire racing, and no spec racing and all that and those days are far more fantasy now than what CART was in 94. CART in that era was taking drivers from f1 and giving them to f1. I don't see Danica, Scott Dixon or Dario getting test drives of any note in f1 this year, do you? No....better shot at going to NASCAR...

[Chaparral66]

You know, with today's news, this thread might also apply to Formula 1. In fact, there are already some scary parallels...

[Lemmy-Boy]

You know, with today's news, this thread might also apply to Formula 1. In fact, there are already some scary parallels...

The really sad part is that a sizable portion of members in the F1 forum think a split is a good idea. In fact, many of them act as if the CART/IRL split never happened. They're simply tired of Mad Max and his dictatorship within FIA.

If the spit was bad for AOWR, times that by 1000x for F1.

A FOTA & FIA split will make the AOWR look very tiny. The losses will amount to billions on both sides.

[Andrewmcm]

The really sad part is that a sizable portion of members in the F1 forum think a split is a good idea. In fact, many of them act as if the CART/IRL split never happened. They're simply tired of Mad Max and his dictatorship within FIA.

If the spit was bad for AOWR, times that by 1000x for F1.

A FOTA & FIA split will make the AOWR look very tiny. The losses will amount to billions on both sides.

Yeah that scares me as well. The F1 boys have not understood what the CART/IRL war did for Indy-style racing in the USA, and I very much doubt that anything different would arise from two top-tier F1-style series.

[Rex Monaco]

15 years ago, CART would have been a natural choice for the teams who are leaving F1 to join. Now starting their own series is definitley a smarter decision than joining the IRL.

But there is hope. A Long Beach race would no longer need to be an FIA race if and when the IRL folds. And a series run by automakers would likely not be following the track money but following marketing potential of the track locations.

If someone in the IRL was smart (and there has been no real evidence of that in the past) they'd be actively talking to these automakers. They could sell (or merge) the IRL to them, save a few of the North American races and add them to this new international series.

If tradition is going to be broken, created or renewed by these breakaway teams, then adding a few historic ovals and some retired historic F1 circuits to the schedule would be a way to distinguish this new series from F1 while placing them in markets where their cars are most likely to be sold. And good or bad, oval racing would definitley help them gain some US fans.

I'd be ok with Indy, Motegi and a restored Monza being the only oval races in this new global series.

Oh well, one can only dream...

[Rex Monaco]

If someone in the IRL was smart (and there has been no real evidence of that in the past) they'd be actively talking to these automakers.

On futher thought, why would it require the IRL to initiate any talks? If the top IRL teams are smart, and I think they are, they're probably exploring all their options right now.

[Rex Monaco]

The more I think about this, the more I see some huge potential here.

For arguments sake, let's limit this new series to 18 races per year. That allows time for travel and testing in between races. And lets assign 6 races each to Europe, Asia (including Australia) and the Americas (North and South).

They could to travel each region 2 or 3 times in order to spread the race dates out during the season for each continent.

And 6 races in each region should be more than enough to satisfy the regional fans and ensure they have a reasonable opportunity to attend at least one race.

Now add the aquistion of the IRL with sole intent obtain it's historical OW past and the use of the Indycar brand name for this new series to add some immediate, even if slightly tainted, brand recognition.

It would not longer be an completely 'American Open Wheeled Series', but with 6 races in the Americas and some traditional CART/IRL international races, it might be enough to retain and regain some US fans. With time, arguably it would likely surpass the fanbase that we have now with the IRL and the F1 combined.

Like I said, I'm just day dreaming.

[Chaparral66]

That's interesting to think about. But just playing devil's advocate for a minute, would this new series come at the cost of a true North American open wheel series identity, leaving even more of our venues dormant than we have now with the current Indy Car structure? Venues like Road America (unacceptable), Laguna Seca, Mid Ohio, Cleveland, Portland, Mexico, in addition to clasic ovals like Michigan and Fontana, have no major league open wheel racing happening at the moment. If a new series like you suggest takes off to even moderate success, would that truly be the final nail in the coffin for North American open wheel racing?

[Rex Monaco]

If a new series like you suggest takes off to even moderate success, would that truly be the final nail in the coffin for North American open wheel racing?

By trying to be equitable in the distribution of the races to each region, this could put the nail in the coffin for AOWR.

Or would it? The IRL car's are already a step down from F1 car's, as were the USAC/CART/CCWS cars before them.

So this new series could also inlcude 3 regional series with their own regional championships as a feeder/support series. Each region could have their own 12-18 race schedule, which could include some or all of the 6 races the international series particpates in. Obviously Indy should remain exclusive. But maybe they could run there a week or two before in support of the other on track activities?

The car's could even use the same chassis (or even last years models), just change the engine size, it's breathing method or something else in order to limit it's HP.

[Rex Monaco]

Venues like Road America (unacceptable), Laguna Seca, Mid Ohio, Cleveland, Portland, Mexico, in addition to clasic ovals like Michigan and Fontana, have no major league open wheel racing happening at the moment.

Let's assume that this series has to stop once in Canada, Mexico and probably Brazil.

After Indy (for the historical value) and Long Beach (for historical and market potential), what other NA track is important for marketing of these automakers cars and would offer good racing?

Would Watkins Glen work? I like it for it's location and it's historical tie to F1 racing. But is it too close to Canada, making Montreal or Toronto less important and pushing the race to Vancouver? That might not be bad, as it would offer the Seattle and Portland fans easy access to the race.

And for a way out there wild card, if the USA ever normalizes relations with Cuba, how about adding Havana back to the racing schedule? If there ever are unrestricted direct flights from Miami, this would be a perfect location.

[Bob Riebe]

If CART was on the downslope in 94, show me how. THAT is just your opinion but the ratings, variety of chassis and engines, the TV coverage quality AND the international attention were there until the split.

Show me where that is a downslope and I can introduce you to Tony George. It would seem you and he would be the only two guys who thought that way at that time.


Bob, you beat this drum for laissez faire racing, and no spec racing and all that and those days are far more fantasy now than what CART was in 94. CART in that era was taking drivers from f1 and giving them to f1. I don't see Danica, Scott Dixon or Dario getting test drives of any note in f1 this year, do you? No....better shot at going to NASCAR...
No what happened to CART without Indy is all the proof needed.
Hero drivers do not keep a series going, automotive concerns do.
If spec. racing is better than the old broad boundry type system, tell me which spec. based series is thriving. I do not seem to have read about it anywhere.(I am still waiting for the U.S. 500 second race.)

What George did to his supposed reason for the IRL, and the IRL, that is a separate screw-up.

[Bob Riebe]

That's interesting to think about. But just playing devil's advocate for a minute, would this new series come at the cost of a true North American open wheel series identity, leaving even more of our venues dormant than we have now with the current Indy Car structure? Venues like Road America (unacceptable), Laguna Seca, Mid Ohio, Cleveland, Portland, Mexico, in addition to clasic ovals like Michigan and Fontana, have no major league open wheel racing happening at the moment. If a new series like you suggest takes off to even moderate success, would that truly be the final nail in the coffin for North American open wheel racing?
IF the AIS coiuld not make it in the U.S. any supposed series that is even more expensive is DOA.
You gents seem to totally ignore the history of open wheel racing in the U.S.
The SCCA Formula A series had top competition, and coverage by racing weeklies. It still DIED.
There are two markets for open wheel cars in U.S. racing; sprint cars and the Indianapolis 500, period.
Sprint cars are dong fine; any other series without Indy, has a chance half-way between zero and none to survive.

[Jag_Warrior]

No what happened to CART without Indy is all the proof needed.
Hero drivers do not keep a series going, automotive concerns do.

It's not an either/or situation. NASCAR has the balance that AOWR, and even ALMS, has failed to understand. Sponsors want eyeballs. Eyeballs tune in for a VARIETY of reasons, not just one. And manufacturers, as sponsors, not suppliers (Porsche), don't generally care to dive into a series if there is no benefit (either technically or financially) to them.

Put Tony Stewart, Jeff Gordon, Dale, Jr. and Jimmie Johnson in IRL cars next Memorial Day and I'll show you a race that (at least) doubles its current ratings. And if they come back the following year and do the season, I'll show you a series that is beating sponsors off with a stick. But it's still not either/or. If that could be combined with Ferrari and Porsche engines, oh my gosh! But AOWR has no balance. All that's left is hoping that Danica sticks around and maybe gets silly-cone implants at some point.

What AOWR has never come to terms with (in the past 15 years or so) is that you cannot push a string. But every year, they keep trying. They continue to try the things this year that didn't work last year, or the year before that. Hmm, what is that the definition for? :rolleyes:

[chuck34]

The more I think about this, the more I see some huge potential here.

For arguments sake, let's limit this new series to 18 races per year. That allows time for travel and testing in between races. And lets assign 6 races each to Europe, Asia (including Australia) and the Americas (North and South).

They could to travel each region 2 or 3 times in order to spread the race dates out during the season for each continent.

And 6 races in each region should be more than enough to satisfy the regional fans and ensure they have a reasonable opportunity to attend at least one race.

Now add the aquistion of the IRL with sole intent obtain it's historical OW past and the use of the Indycar brand name for this new series to add some immediate, even if slightly tainted, brand recognition.

It would not longer be an completely 'American Open Wheeled Series', but with 6 races in the Americas and some traditional CART/IRL international races, it might be enough to retain and regain some US fans. With time, arguably it would likely surpass the fanbase that we have now with the IRL and the F1 combined.

Like I said, I'm just day dreaming.

Why would the IRL want to become part of FOTA (or whatever they're gonna call it)? Why would FOTA want to absorb the IRL? There is no up-side to either side. FOTA doesn't care about Indy. The IRL doesn't care (too much) about Europe.

Now perhaps I could see one or two TEAMS from the IRL trying to start something in that other series. But in no way could I ever see the IRL and/or FOTA trying to combine resorces. Just not enough overlap between their interests.

[Rex Monaco]

Why would the IRL want to become part of FOTA (or whatever they're gonna call it)?

For the Bailout.



Why would FOTA want to absorb the IRL?


For the legitmate claim of 100 years of racing tradition.

[ClarkFan]

So explain the petition that circulated among the participants in support of Tony George?

The only thing that needs to be split at this point are a few lips....

It was a "vote of confidence." In baseball, that means, "Don't hang any new pictures in your office."

ClarkFan

[Bob Riebe]

AIS? You're kidding of course. Barely more than a club series run on 2nd rate tracks and in direct competition to CART at it's peak.
Open wheel was successful here.
Second rate tracks as compared to what? Pissant street circuits?
No few weren't better than that.

Indianapolis 500 is successful here, open wheel beyond sprint cars just tagged along.
CART found out the hard way and the IRL is reinforcing that point at present.

A odd , but not unexpected thing is Long Beach has run near every type of rear engined formula the U.S. has ever had and it is still just first place loser among all the other tracks.
All that history and no one cares.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No what happened to CART without Indy is all the proof needed.
Hero drivers do not keep a series going, automotive concerns do.
If spec. racing is better than the old broad boundry type system, tell me which spec. based series is thriving. I do not seem to have read about it anywhere.(I am still waiting for the U.S. 500 second race.)

What George did to his supposed reason for the IRL, and the IRL, that is a separate screw-up.

What spec racing series is thriving? NASCAR ring any bells Bob? It is about as Spec in many ways as you can get.

I don't like Spec racing on a lot of levels, but no one is paying 100 bucks a seat to watch a guy run away from second, and second be half a lap up on third, and 4th and so forth.

North American audiences lose interest if their guy isn't in the hunt for a win for at least half the race.

You have to have some sort of "box" that keeps all the various cars and designs within a parameter. Also, racing technology has developed to the point if there are no limits on power or downforce, 250mph laps will be run on ovals and THAT has the insurance people and promoters VERY nervous if something goes wrong.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Second rate tracks as compared to what? Pissant street circuits?
No few weren't better than that.

Indianapolis 500 is successful here, open wheel beyond sprint cars just tagged along.
CART found out the hard way and the IRL is reinforcing that point at present.

A odd , but not unexpected thing is Long Beach has run near every type of rear engined formula the U.S. has ever had and it is still just first place loser among all the other tracks.
All that history and no one cares.

No Bob...YOU don't care.

The IRL cared, Tony George was attending it when CCWS was still flailing about there. It is a big deal in SoCal.

First among losers? Hell then...kill the series Bob, just run Indy once a year. That oughta be a money maker....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Why would the IRL want to become part of FOTA (or whatever they're gonna call it)? Why would FOTA want to absorb the IRL? There is no up-side to either side. FOTA doesn't care about Indy. The IRL doesn't care (too much) about Europe.

Now perhaps I could see one or two TEAMS from the IRL trying to start something in that other series. But in no way could I ever see the IRL and/or FOTA trying to combine resorces. Just not enough overlap between their interests.


The IRL wouldn't make it past the front door with FOTA. The Europeans who run F1 and the European manufacturers who compete in f1 for the most part couldn't give a rat's behind about what is going on over here. They are so busy navel gazing they are not even bothered by their abscence from the North American market.

No IRL team on the other hand has shown any interest in going to f1. Not even Roger Penske. Penske could do it, but none of the others have the dough rei mi to do it. F1 is a financial sinkhole that is being played out by the manufacturers. They are suing Max and the FIA to be able to spend money like water to win. THINK ABOUT HOW DUMB THAT IS. The first good idea Max has in 20 years and they are ready to leave over it.

f1 spends more money than the wealth of NATIONS and when someone tries to bring some fiscal sanity to it in a world stricken by a shortage of funds, the carmakers are ticked. They don't want to be beat by some clever guys working out of a small shop in Charlotte or Paul Ricard or Stuttgart on a budget.

No...f1 would be damaged by a split, but considering the way the FIA has messed up racing, and the manufacturers seem hell bent on being morons, I hope like hell the IRL stays some sort of course over here and improves their product and venue lineup independent of the Eurocentric world of f1. They turned their nose down on North American drivers for years and their teams and technology for years. A pox on their house I say....

[chuck34]

1) The IRL wouldn't make it past the front door with FOTA. The Europeans who run F1 and the European manufacturers who compete in f1 for the most part couldn't give a rat's behind about what is going on over here. They are so busy navel gazing they are not even bothered by their abscence from the North American market.

2) No IRL team on the other hand has shown any interest in going to f1. Not even Roger Penske. Penske could do it, but none of the others have the dough rei mi to do it. F1 is a financial sinkhole that is being played out by the manufacturers. They are suing Max and the FIA to be able to spend money like water to win. THINK ABOUT HOW DUMB THAT IS. The first good idea Max has in 20 years and they are ready to leave over it.

3) f1 spends more money than the wealth of NATIONS and when someone tries to bring some fiscal sanity to it in a world stricken by a shortage of funds, the carmakers are ticked. They don't want to be beat by some clever guys working out of a small shop in Charlotte or Paul Ricard or Stuttgart on a budget.

4) No...f1 would be damaged by a split, but considering the way the FIA has messed up racing, and the manufacturers seem hell bent on being morons, I hope like hell the IRL stays some sort of course over here and improves their product and venue lineup independent of the Eurocentric world of f1. They turned their nose down on North American drivers for years and their teams and technology for years. A pox on their house I say....

1) That's my point. The Euro's don't care about the IRL. Not saying that's good or bad (don't want to get into that here), just stating the fact.

2) I think that Penske could do it. Also, Ganassi could, but I don't think he has the desire. Someone mentioned something about Jay Penske (can't remember where I heard that one), but that actually makes a lot of sence to me, at some point in the future. But you are right, as of now I don't think any IRL guys are going to be jumping over there.

3) I honestly don't know where I stand on the whole money/F1/manufacturers deal. Part of me says these guys are spending themselves out of business, let's cut the budgets and get back to priviteer teams etc. But the other part of me (the capitalist side) says, let 'em spend as much as they can raise, it's not up to me to tell someone what they can and can't do. I don't know what the answer is.

4) F1 will be hurt for sure by a split. I guess no one over there has ever heard of the IRL or CART. Communications must only come from over there. Phone, internet, and newspapers obviously don't go from West to East across the Atlantic :-) And I agree, I hope the IRL introduces a bit of stability in their venues, drivers, teams, etc for a while, all while focusing on improving the on-track racing.

[Lemmy-Boy]

The Europeans who run F1 and the European manufacturers who compete in f1 for the most part couldn't give a rat's behind about what is going on over here.

F1 teams may not care about the IRL....but they're all are begging to have another race in North America. This is all due to pressure from sponsors (many of whom are Fortune 500 companies based in the USA or have a big presence over here).

North America is the largest consumer market in the world that can't be ignored. All of the Manufacturers (BMW, Mercedes, Toyota, etc) desperately want a race in the America's, since they sell a bucket load of cars over here.

I do agree that F1 spending is way out of control. But the real issue is not about race budgets or parity. It's all about FOTA trying to axe Max Mosely and stiffling Bernie E. This poker game is really about personality conflicts and revenue sharing with FOM. A big irony is the fact it all came into global prominence at Indy; the Michelin fiasco at the U.S. GP with only 3 teams racing.

Those snobby Europeans are going to pay a big price for a FOTA/FIA split. The CART/IRL split will look minuscule as compared to what may happen accross the pond.

[Bob Riebe]

Those snobby Europeans are going to pay a big price for a FOTA/FIA split. The CART/IRL split will look minuscule as compared to what may happen accross the pond.
In the long run it will probably be one of he best things that ever happened to racing, as is the current financial crisis.
Both are causing people who have become narcissistic fools to get a rude awakening in the real world.

[Bob Riebe]

North American audiences lose interest if their guy isn't in the hunt for a win for at least half the race.

.
If racing survives only on people who are so asininely stupid they must be fed "close" competition based on an artificially created farce, then racing going belly -up is what SHOULD happen.
Of course this is the PT Barnum type farce the IMCA used in the thirties to keep incredibly naive fans in the stands, so-- I guess what goes around comes around, type to pull the feeding tubes.

[Mark in Oshawa]

If racing survives only on people who are so asininely stupid they must be fed "close" competition based on an artificially created farce, then racing going belly -up is what SHOULD happen.
Of course this is the PT Barnum type farce the IMCA used in the thirties to keep incredibly naive fans in the stands, so-- I guess what goes around comes around, type to pull the feeding tubes.

Bob..you HATE spec racing, it is obvious, but I am firmly of the belief you would have NO rules at all.

I will not pay good money to see one car with better engineering defeat 19 others and the only passing I see is when the fast one laps em or there is some pit strategy. THAT is almost where f1 has gone, and you HATE that too.

You ignore my point that the Spec series that you say would never work is working quite well in NASCAR. I don't like "spec" rules and would like some variety, but spare me this crap that people don't want to see the drivers RACE each other. No one cares about who has the fastest computer or most efficient traction control, people want to see cars on the ragged edge driven by drivers hanging on and battling each other.

F1 was that in the 70's and into the early 80's but lately it has been a procession. I don't see the split changing that if it happens because the manufacturers are more interested in showing off their technology. Might as well put people with remote controls in a stand somewhere and take the driver out of the car if that's the case...

[DBell]

If the reports just coming from Europe this morning are accurate, then the F1-FOTA split has been averted. If true, the giant egos of F1 have shown themselves infinitely smarter than the IMS-CART egos were. The score card will read: FOTA/FIA/Bernie = winners, fans of F1 win. TG-IMS/CART (Penske,Ganassi,Haas, etc.) = losers, fans of AOW racing lost.

[dataman1]

If the reports just coming from Europe this morning are accurate, then the F1-FOTA split has been averted. If true, the giant egos of F1 have shown themselves infinitely smarter than the IMS-CART egos were. The score card will read: FOTA/FIA/Bernie = winners, fans of F1 win. TG-IMS/CART (Penske,Ganassi,Haas, etc.) = losers, fans of AOW racing lost.

Maybe they (F1/FOTA) used the TG/CART failure as evidence they should compromise. Oh yes, compromise, an interesting thought.

[Chaparral66]

Yup, just got the word from CNN. Here you go:

Max Mosley, the president of motorsport's world governing body the Federation Internationale de l'Automobile (FIA), has said there "will be a unified Formula One championship in 2010."
The statement comes after Mosley spoke to the FIA's World Motor Sport Council and the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA), at the governing body's headquarters in Paris.
It seems FOTA, as the representitive of all eight teams that had threatened to set up a rival series, have settled their differences with the controversial racing boss.
Mosley has confirmed a new cost-cutting agreement has been reached with those concerned which has ensured next season's Championship will include the eight breakaway teams - Ferrari, McLaren, BMW Sauber, Renault, Toyota, Red Bull, Toro Rosso and Brawn GP. The Formula One furor explained.
"There will be one F1 championship but the objective is to get back to the spending levels of the early 90s within two years," Mosley told a press con
ference.
It also appears the 69-year-old has now agreed to move aside when his fourth term as FIA president ends in October, saying: "I will not be up for re-election, now we have peace."

Score one for Max on this one. He was able to avoid the silliness that CART and the IRL got into, AND was able to put in a cost cutting agreement that hopefully will go towards preserving F1 future.

BTW, I don't agree the drivers and teams are apathetic in coming to North America, that attitude belongs to Our Good Friend Bernie Eccelstone. Mark in Oshawa is absolutely right when he say the car companies want a race here since this is their biggest market. The teams liked racing here just fine (when their tires behaved), and Michael Schumacher loves coming to the US. Having two, both in the US and Canada, is a great marketing one two punch for them. I know Canada is working on getting their race back, and I hope we have a US Grand Prix back soon.

[garyshell]

Score one for Max on this one. He was able to avoid the silliness that CART and the IRL got into, AND was able to put in a cost cutting agreement that hopefully will go towards preserving F1 future.


Score one for Max? I'd say score one for FOTA, Max blinked and is stepping down. While I agreed with the measures he sought, I say good riddance. Let's hope the munchkin is next to go. The cost cutting measures that FOTA won were much watered down and will not really cut that much cost.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Score one for Max? I'd say score one for FOTA, Max blinked and is stepping down. While I agreed with the measures he sought, I say good riddance. Let's hope the munchkin is next to go. The cost cutting measures that FOTA won were much watered down and will not really cut that much cost.

Gary

Score one for the FOTA? How do you figure? At least two of the teams, one being Ferrari, didn't want any spending cuts. Reports indicate the Prancing Horse may have been spending up to $500 million a year, which, if true, is asinine. I don't blame Mosely for trying to get teams to cut some. Large spending cuts might not happen tommorrow, but the agreement is to get it down to early 90's level in 2 years, which is reasonable given that the teams will have to deal with the inevitable personnel layoffs. FOTA won a delay of abrupt change, but Mosley got what he wanted.

As for stepping down, Mosley said he was going to do that soon anyway, so this isn't much news, even if he changed his mind during his last term. I agree it's time for him to go, F1 needs a contemporary change and new vision. I hear Chris Pook is available :D

[chuck34]

Score one for the FOTA? How do you figure? At least two of the teams, one being Ferrari, didn't want any spending cuts. Reports indicate the Prancing Horse may have been spending up to $500 million a year, which, if true, is asinine. I don't blame Mosely for trying to get teams to cut some. Large spending cuts might not happen tommorrow, but the agreement is to get it down to early 90's level in 2 years, which is reasonable given that the teams will have to deal with the inevitable personnel layoffs. FOTA won a delay of abrupt change, but Mosley got what he wanted.

As for stepping down, Mosley said he was going to do that soon anyway, so this isn't much news, even if he changed his mind during his last term. I agree it's time for him to go, F1 needs a contemporary change and new vision. I hear Chris Pook is available :D

I don't understand this obsession with cutting costs.

1) Teams will find ways around it.

2) Who cares? If someone is willing to spend the cubic dollars on winning races let them. It's not like it's money out of your pocket. In fact it is money in A LOT of people's pockets. How many people work for Ferrari F1? McLaren? Williams? Brawn? Force India? Etc? In the middle of a world wide economic down-turn do we really want a couple thousand more people out there looking for jobs?

[NickFalzone]

I don't really get the cutting costs either, then again I don't watch F1 very often. What I see is a field of generally 16-20 cars that in the past was dominated by Ferrari/McLaren but also had fast cars from BMW, Red Bull, and a couple other teams that could compete in the top 5. And this year Brawn has completely dominated and Ferrari and McLaren have sucked. So if the competition is decent, which it seems to have been the past few seasons, a budget cut just doesn't make much sense. Unless the concern was that the grid size was going to significantly shrink next season due to the economy. I guess a 12-15 car grid would not be very impressive... but if these budget cuts are not happening, then isn't the grid size likely to be smaller now?

[Chaparral66]

I don't really get the cutting costs either, then again I don't watch F1 very often. What I see is a field of generally 16-20 cars that in the past was dominated by Ferrari/McLaren but also had fast cars from BMW, Red Bull, and a couple other teams that could compete in the top 5. And this year Brawn has completely dominated and Ferrari and McLaren have sucked. So if the competition is decent, which it seems to have been the past few seasons, a budget cut just doesn't make much sense. Unless the concern was that the grid size was going to significantly shrink next season due to the economy. I guess a 12-15 car grid would not be very impressive... but if these budget cuts are not happening, then isn't the grid size likely to be smaller now?

According to the announcement by FIA today, the budget cuts will happen, but over a two year span. Yeah, it's true, it's the car company's money they can spend it how they like. However, in the current worldwide economy, how can a car company, even the legendary Ferrari name, justify spending 500 super large to field a 2 car team? You can field a competitve 2 car IRL operation for about $20 miilion a year (granted the IRL doesn't travel the world to the extent of Formula 1). Fiat, which owns Ferrari, can't keep that up forever, even with some sponsorship help.

There is no reason F1 can't put on a competitive series racing at 1990's financial levels. Come up with a comprehensive set of rules to limit costs and even out the competition. Will the teams somehow find a way to get around it? Of course they will. But this needs to be a constant process of keeping costs down. No, it won't be easy, and it shouldn't be. But this why F1 is the elite series it is, because of the challenge. If it were easy, we'll all be racing in F1 instead talking about it here.

[Gluaistean]

.

[Gluaistean]

[

[quote
You can field a competitive 2 car IRL operation for about $20 million a year (granted the IRL doesn't travel the world to the extent of Formula 1). __________________________________________________ ______________


Does it cost that much for a two car operation. I don't believe it does. I have two or three people that are very much involved in the sport, all former Champcar, and they are talking $4 million as having a decent run and $6 million at most per car. Some are even working on less albeit they are always at the back of the field.

I also wonder about TomTom on Dario's car. Is that part of Target or did they (Target) tell Chip to get another sponsor.

With respect to the budget cut at F1. The real reason many of these teams are against such drastic cuts is that as pointed out by others is that employing 500 in the case of Ferrari to 400 at McLaren, 300 at Williams and the same at Renault. Cutting the budget will mean getting rid of more than 60% of the employees, have a car that is not to the same standard as those that they have produced over the years and the total loss of goodwill amongst the Tifosi and the fans of the other teams whatever they call themselves.

The integrity of the sport as was the case of Champcar/Cart was that they are/were on the cutting edge of the sport thereby testing new and futuristic as well as innovative devices now being used in passenger cars.

What we will be left with is a bunch of new teams like Carlin , Manor and Team USF1 and we have the makings of a field of Minardi's running around.

Just like the IRL post Champcar. Ugly cars, dumbed down technology and uninspiring racing that is boring.

Anyone that has been to a road course with F1/Champcar or Cart and then go to the same with the IRL will quickly notice the difference in performance.

Champcar/Cart at Road America gave me goose bumps particularly at the start of the race when they ran to turn two. You could hear them coming, down shifting and how fast they had to break and drop speed to take the turn and then back full on the power and the scream of the turbo.

Not so with the IRL cars. Although I'm trying my best to be supportive of open wheel racing in the US it is getting more difficult to support what is obviously a failing series.

With TG losing the purse strings what will happen to Dale Coyne, PSDV HVM (sic) and Conquest, not to mention Sarah F and a couple of the other teams like Foyt who definately is not running at $6 million a car.

Once Danica leaves or goes to another team do you think that the current sponsors are going to be enough to keep Andretti going.

The giveaway is that when you announce a title sponsor for a car like Meijer and then after a few races someone else comes in and they are relegated (Meijer) to the associate level it means they are not contributing a whole lot.[/QUOTE]

[Chaparral66]

I understand your point, Gluaistean, but it seems to me you could cut the cost of funding a team and still have cutting edge technology in the cars. Champ Car was able to do that, and they weren't even in the same ball park as F1 in costs. Now, it's true that Champ Car teams didn't have to design and build their cars, but as you've acknowledged, Champ Car could put on one helluva show at places like Road America.

The $20 million dollar figure for a two car IRL team I've heard several times, usually attributed to Penske and Ganassi. That would be the high point for an Indy car team, but that still isn't quite as much as one of the top tier single NASCAR Sprint Cup teams, and I'm betting Jack Roush's 5 car team of recent times probably still didn't match anywhere near of what Ferrari reportedly spends for two cars. Just trying to put all of this into perspective.

Cutting costs substantially would have a siginificant impact of parts, new development, and personnel, but something needs to happen. The races are very expensive to go, TV rights are going off the charts (and into Bernie's pockets), regular passenger cars by the manufacturers in F1 continue to go up in part because of investment in F1, reductions have to start somewhere. Spending at this level just isn't sustainable. Even if you cut the budgets in half, that would be a start, and you could still put on a good show.

[chuck34]

So what if the car manufactuers pull out because they are "spending too much". Others will step in to replace them, at a lower, or maybe equal budget. Does budget size really matter that much? I don't know the exact figure, but I'll garuntee that Brawn is spending orders of magnitude less money than Ferrari, and getting better results from it. So why don't Renault, Mercedes, Toyota, et all just cut funding and do things "smarter"?

If you learn nothing else from this year's F1, please take note that the dominate teams are not spending the most, not by a long shot!

[garyshell]

Does budget size really matter that much? I don't know the exact figure, but I'll garuntee that Brawn is spending orders of magnitude less money than Ferrari, and getting better results from it.

Orders of magnitude? Assuming the 500,000,000 number at Ferrari is correct. One order of magnitude would be 50,000,000. Two orders of magnitude would be only 5,000,000.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

I don't know Ferrari or McLaren's business model, but I just don't see how it makes ANY sense to spend $500 million dollars a year on their F1 program. Certainly, if the rules are what they are, I have no problem with them spending the money they way they choose to. But I just cannot imagine that Ferrari's "brand" is so improved by F1 that over the course of 4 years, they get back that $2 billion in sales. Does Lambo race anywhere? I don't know how Lambo sales compare to Ferrari, but just because Ferarri's a good F1 team does not make me personally any more interested in buying their street cars, if I had the money that is.

[Lousada]

I don't know Ferrari or McLaren's business model, but I just don't see how it makes ANY sense to spend $500 million dollars a year on their F1 program. Certainly, if the rules are what they are, I have no problem with them spending the money they way they choose to. But I just cannot imagine that Ferrari's "brand" is so improved by F1 that over the course of 4 years, they get back that $2 billion in sales. Does Lambo race anywhere? I don't know how Lambo sales compare to Ferrari, but just because Ferarri's a good F1 team does not make me personally any more interested in buying their street cars, if I had the money that is.

The street cars mean very little to Ferrari F1. It's all about the merchandise. Just look around at races but also just in the street and count all these people with Ferrari keychains, caps, shirts and so on.
Other things that Ferrari has going on is that they probably have the best paying sponsor after Red Bull and they get a bigger share in TV-money then all the other teams.
Last point is that the 500 million is inflated. The reports I read it is more like 350 million. The 500 million is reported as Toyota's number.

[chuck34]

Orders of magnitude? Assuming the 500,000,000 number at Ferrari is correct. One order of magnitude would be 50,000,000. Two orders of magnitude would be only 5,000,000.

Gary

Ok, I might have been exagerating a bit. But the point is valid. Brawn (and maybe Red Bull for that matter, although I don't know their budget) spend quite a bit less than Ferrari and McLaren. And certainly much less than Toyota. And this year's results prove that you don't need the biggest budget to win.

So if the "big teams" want to continue spending themselves into oblivion, fine. It's their decision. If they make an unwise choice they should live with the consequences. In this world there are failures, no matter how much we wish everyone to be a success, no matter how much it sucks to be a failure, no matter how much you don't want to fail, that does not change the FACT that people will always find a way to fail. Some of the greatest things in this world were born from failure. Trying to legislate failure away, will itself only fail.

[Gluaistean]

Don't forget that Ferrari, like Penske, is still getting substantial funds from Marlboro.


This true. I often wondered if Players had used the sailors head (their logo) could they have stayed in CC? Well, maybe they wanted out and the termination saved them 10 million per year.

[Chaparral66]

That's true, Starter, but NickFalzone's comments are still valid. Even if the world economy were stronger, I think any rational person would have to question the wisdom of spending such a large amount (whether $500 million or 350 million) annually on a single 2 car team.

@Lousada: And while merchandising is important to Ferrari, they are not the Harley-Davidson of high performance cars. Their product is their best marketing, and they take that very seriously. Harley-Davidson is a merchandising company that happens to make motorcycles, who have only recently made a serious attempt to update their technology; whereas, Ferrari has kept up with and even pioneered the state of the art, using some of their F1 and other racing knowhow in their street cars.

Here's a question for this august group: is it viable to try to make American Open Wheel Racing more related to F1 (a lot like ALMS is to LeMans), thereby establishing more of a direct path to F1 (which the IRL is not) as oppose to the indirect path that CART/Champ Car was, and making it easier for American drivers to climb the ladder to F1, resulting in more Americans getting interested in F1 and making it easier to bring F1 back to the US?

[chuck34]

That's true, Starter, but NickFalzone's comments are still valid. Even if the world economy were stronger, I think any rational person would have to question the wisdom of spending such a large amount (whether $500 million or 350 million) annually on a single 2 car team.

@Lousada: And while merchandising is important to Ferrari, they are not the Harley-Davidson of high performance cars. Their product is their best marketing, and they take that very seriously. Harley-Davidson is a merchandising company that happens to make motorcycles, who have only recently made a serious attempt to update their technology; whereas, Ferrari has kept up with and even pioneered the state of the art, using some of their F1 and other racing knowhow in their street cars.

Here's a question for this august group: is it viable to try to make American Open Wheel Racing more related to F1 (a lot like ALMS is to LeMans), thereby establishing more of a direct path to F1 (which the IRL is not) as oppose to the indirect path that CART/Champ Car was, and making it easier for American drivers to climb the ladder to F1, resulting in more Americans getting interested in F1 and making it easier to bring F1 back to the US?

Why should AOWR care anything about F1, especially being in the "direct path" to F1? Shouldn't AOWR be trying to grow the number of drivers, fans, engineers, etc. in their own series, not giving them a stepping stone to some other series?

[Bob Riebe]

That's true, Starter, but NickFalzone's comments are still valid. Even if the world economy were stronger, I think any rational person would have to question the wisdom of spending such a large amount (whether $500 million or 350 million) annually on a single 2 car team.

@Lousada: And while merchandising is important to Ferrari, they are not the Harley-Davidson of high performance cars. Their product is their best marketing, and they take that very seriously. Harley-Davidson is a merchandising company that happens to make motorcycles, who have only recently made a serious attempt to update their technology; whereas, Ferrari has kept up with and even pioneered the state of the art, using some of their F1 and other racing knowhow in their street cars.

Here's a question for this august group: is it viable to try to make American Open Wheel Racing more related to F1 (a lot like ALMS is to LeMans), thereby establishing more of a direct path to F1 (which the IRL is not) as oppose to the indirect path that CART/Champ Car was, and making it easier for American drivers to climb the ladder to F1, resulting in more Americans getting interested in F1 and making it easier to bring F1 back to the US?

And LeMans is to the average U.S. racing even less well known than the current pathetic Daytona 24 hrs. which is why the IMSA is doing SO WELL.

U.S. racing series should learn from sprint cars and cater to U.S. fans, and then they might be doing as well as sprint cars.