Edwards vs Toseland

[edlalu]

Whats the beef between these two?

[NinjaMaster]

Whats the beef between these two?

James went behind Colin's (and Tech3's) back and stole his crewchief. Toseland, I believe, would like to end the feud but Colin appears to be prospering rom it so I'd expect it to continue rom his side.

[gco0307]

James went behind Colin's (and Tech3's) back and stole his crewchief. Toseland, I believe, would like to end the feud but Colin appears to be prospering rom it so I'd expect it to continue rom his side.


That is the reported version anyway as other versions have put Poncharal as the instigator to the whole move and Toseland not complaining. Interestingly enough there were even some reports I had read that had Edwards had full knowledge of the teams intentions well before anything happened.

To me though what has happened is childish from Edwards and whilst wishing no ill will on him, personally I am over his self righteous posturing on the matter.

As for Toseland, I feel sorry for him as to me he is/was the better prospect of the two yet is suffering at the hands of Edwards mind games, the public who generally favour Mr NiceGuy Edwards and of course the weight of the British media expecting Toseland to be the next Sheene.







Garry

[Rod Richardson]

That is the reported version anyway as other versions have put Poncharal as the instigator to the whole move and Toseland not complaining. ............................................

To me though what has happened is childish from Edwards and whilst wishing no ill will on him, personally I am over his self righteous posturing on the matter.

Garry


Hang about..........Sure Edwards spat the dummy over what happened but I've not previously seen or heard of any articles or comments from Poncharal re him instigating the move nor do I believe that Edwards' version has ever been disputed by Toseland.

Does that not tell you something?

Regardless, if the press did not keep asking Edwards about the matter and the rift between them then Edwards would not need to comment any further.

If Toseland has the ability to beat Edwards then he should get on with it like the pro he is. If, as you imply, the incident is still messing with his mind then he should get a grip.

[gco0307]

Hang about..........Sure Edwards spat the dummy over what happened but I've not previously seen or heard of any articles or comments from Poncharal re him instigating the move nor do I believe that Edwards' version has ever been disputed by Toseland.

Does that not tell you something?

Regardless, if the press did not keep asking Edwards about the matter and the rift between them then Edwards would not need to comment any further.

If Toseland has the ability to beat Edwards then he should get on with it like the pro he is. If, as you imply, the incident is still messing with his mind then he should get a grip.



I recall an article where Poncharal admitted that it was his idea and he mentioned it to Toseland first as he saw Toseland as the longer term prospect.

As for Edwards, I have also seen reports where he was not asked about the issue but brings it up when answering unrelated questions (ie. always dropping about new crew chief, team-mates performance etc) so he is not entirely innocent in regards to the issue continuing in the media. Edwards has been around long enough to know how to say something to get further bites and is very good at playing the media as he is well known for giving quotes.

But, you are correct in that Toseland need to get on with it as this is a big business sport and in business people are nasty. It is up to him to prove that he belongs and he should not expect favours from anyone. If he fails to come to terms than he will not be around, simple.

To me, I still say that both are hanging onto it for difefrent re3asons. Toseland because it is in his face and he has to confront it each and every time as so far results have not shown the decision as correct, Edwards because he uses it as motivation





Garry

[MrJan]

I seem to remember hearing JT say that it wasn't a behind his back move or his own decision. Colin does like to spit his dummy oot sometimes and act a bit like a child who's been told that he can't have a new toy and I think it's time they got over it and acted like team mates again.

Race commentators mentioned a rumour that Edwards could return to WSBK in 2010, IMO I don't think he has anything to contribute to WSBK now. He doesn't have the passion, skill and mental toughness that Troy Bayliss never lost. I think Toseland will return to WSBK too eventually but probably not next year if the rumour about Edwards is true.

[leopard]

Riders with background starting from smaller classes of motogp tend to be more successful than those switching from different championship such as SBK, or BSB. Nicky Hayden might be an exception, but he has spent crucial years of learning season on main factory team before winning a title, although he has been being back struggle thereafter.

Perhaps, Toseland and Edwards problem whose their background were from the same championship need couple years of adjustment before finding out the right rhythm of competing motogp. Edwards has more experience than Toseland, and hence he can be sometimes concerned better than Toseland. Toseland might need more times for adjustment, but it shouldn’t exceed a season of learning if he has the right skill and mental up for a worthy meaningful rider of motogp.

[NinjaMaster]

That is the reported version anyway as other versions have put Poncharal as the instigator to the whole move and Toseland not complaining. Interestingly enough there were even some reports I had read that had Edwards had full knowledge of the teams intentions well before anything happened.

To me though what has happened is childish from Edwards and whilst wishing no ill will on him, personally I am over his self righteous posturing on the matter.

As for Toseland, I feel sorry for him as to me he is/was the better prospect of the two yet is suffering at the hands of Edwards mind games, the public who generally favour Mr NiceGuy Edwards and of course the weight of the British media expecting Toseland to be the next Sheene.


Garry

I haven't read/heard anything other than Edwards technician apologetically telling him that it was organised that he would join forces with Toseland this year. Perhaps Poncharal was in on it but I don't believe that Colin had any idea from any information I've seen but then perhaps you're a better scourer of the internet than I.

I do agree that Edwards should just get over it though. What's done is done and his still carrying on is childish.

My sympathy for JT is limited. He made his bed, he has to by man enough to lie in it. Said that, he's had a horror start with crashes and injuries so hopefully things are on an even keel for him now and he can prove what he's made of.



Race commentators mentioned a rumour that Edwards could return to WSBK in 2010, IMO I don't think he has anything to contribute to WSBK now. He doesn't have the passion, skill and mental toughness that Troy Bayliss never lost. I think Toseland will return to WSBK too eventually but probably not next year if the rumour about Edwards is true.

I think you sell Colin short, Sue. He's still scoring fairly regular top 5-6 MotoGP finishes and I think he definatley still has what it takes to be a WSB frontrunner. The only question would be his hunger to step 'down' to WSB given his desire is to remain in MotoGP.

[quote="NinjaMaster"]

I would have put his stats at 7-9 but I may be wrong there. I agree with your comment on another thread that a move to WSBK for Nicky Hayden would be something to look forward to (I've not heard any rumours so far tho').

[gco0307]

Race commentators mentioned a rumour that Edwards could return to WSBK in 2010, IMO I don't think he has anything to contribute to WSBK now. He doesn't have the passion, skill and mental toughness that Troy Bayliss never lost. I think Toseland will return to WSBK too eventually but probably not next year if the rumour about Edwards is true.


Have heard the same stories so there would likely be some truth in it amd have heard two teams mentioned thus far.

Yamaha as a replacement for Spies in a straight seat swap

Aprilia to partner Biaggi.

The Yamaha deal sounds the more realistic but I suspect that it also does not mean that Toseland is safe as there are challenges for that seat, but to swap two riders in one year is a big risk.

As for what Edwards has to offer I do suspect that you are right in terms of will his hunger remain and does he want to compete at WSBK level. Of that I am not so sure but feel that if he wanted to ride in teh championship he owuld be a regular top 5 finisher with the only real limiting factor being the equipment underneath him. IMO, Edwards is a far better Superbike rider than he is or ever was at MotoGP level.

The saving grace for Edwards at MotoGP level could well be Toseland's performances for the remainder of teh season and/or whether Tech3 would swap two riders (I think JT is in trouble with Tech3)




Garry

[gco0307]

I haven't read/heard anything other than Edwards technician apologetically telling him that it was organised that he would join forces with Toseland this year. Perhaps Poncharal was in on it but I don't believe that Colin had any idea from any information I've seen but then perhaps you're a better scourer of the internet than I.

I do agree that Edwards should just get over it though. What's done is done and his still carrying on is childish.

My sympathy for JT is limited. He made his bed, he has to by man enough to lie in it. Said that, he's had a horror start with crashes and injuries so hopefully things are on an even keel for him now and he can prove what he's made of.



I have tried to search for the article as it was linked from another forum but drawing blanks.

But I agree wholeheartedly, both have made their various beds and both should just get on with the racing which I do think in fairness Edwards is doing, just that he is also playing a big mind game and winning at this stage. JT on the other hand needs to HTFU, forget about Edwards and stay on the bloody bike, results will then come.







Garry

[Rod Richardson]

Here you go..........found an April article which, presuming it is accurate, should clarify the situation about the initial issue.......


http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/toseland-breaks-silence-colin-edwards/


"Toseland Breaks His Silence About Colin Edwards (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/toseland-breaks-silence-colin-edwards/)
Posted Sunday, April 5th, 2009 @ 10:17 am, by Jenny Gun in News (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/category/news/), Racing (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/category/racing/)
Home (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/) » News (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/category/news/) » Toseland Breaks His Silence About Colin Edwards

In these last months, some serious events at Monster Tech3 Yamaha have occurred. First, there was the crew chief swap (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/trouble-yamahas-camp/) that found Colin Edwards’ former chief, Gary Reynders, suddenly working with James Toseland.
Then, there was the trash talk from Colin Edwards (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/edwards-toseland-rift-tech3-widens/) about the move, and Tech3 manager, Herve Poncharal, seemingly giving his blessing on the tom-foolery that was going on in his camp. After that, a physical wall was seen erected in the Tech3 (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/tech3-erects-proverbial-yamaha-wall-motogp-paddock/) pits that separated James and Colin from each other. And despite all this, James Toseland has kept a very low profile and refused to talk about the events that have surrouneded him, that is, until now. Continue reading to hear what Toseland had to say about himself, and the current state of the Tech3 camp

Toseland finally broke hid silence in this interview with the BBC Sport:

“It didn’t have to happen like this, and I can imagine why he feels the way he does. We just need to sit in a room and talk about the situation, but he’s got a wall in the garage like he wanted.

I had a communication problem with the engineer and thought another year of that and I could find myself without a GP ride. I’ve no problem with his ability as an engineer - it was about communication. He didn’t speak English that well and with my Yorkshire slang, I think that made things difficult too. I needed someone experienced who understood me to help me get where I wanted and to punch my weight. The only problem was that there was no communication going back to Colin, so all of a sudden he’s told by Garry.[/font]

In all the press you can see how it looks - we’re not talking to each other. In the team, I can’t say ‘I want that to change’ - that’s what it’s looked like to people reading it.[/font]

I’ve got a slating off a lot of people and I’ve taken it all on the chin. It’s a playground stuff now and it didn’t need to get to this.”

Toseland has echoed again his problems in communicating with former crew-chief Guy Coulon, and the importance that this season has for his career, but despite this basis his reason and motivation, we do not think its an argument that Edwards, or the public at large is going to accept as being anything beyond selfish. Toseland is going to have to turn around his performance on the track too, if he is going to prove that there was some method to this madness."

[The Phantom]

I think both CE and JT should also be considering Tech3s proposed attempt at Moto2 - given that Moto2 is a class that Tech3 may actually have a chance of winning, the MotoGP team might find itself a bit under-resourced should thinkgs take off in the middle class. Maybe they should both get on with the job of performing as a team in order to ensure that the team continues at its current level - at the very least - in MotoGP?

[greenchile505]

I don't understand why everyone keeps saying Edwards should get over it. So the new guy, Toseland says, "I had a communications problem ..." and "I needed someone ... who understood me to help me get to where I want to be".

This is the highest level of motorcycle racing. Edwards needs to feed his family (not his ego). What's he supposed to do, roll over and let this guy walk all over him? Is he supposed to share setups now? Share information? JT took from CE so he could get what he needed so he could be where he wanted to be. Is CE supposed to keep giving and giving?? Or can he just now mind his own business? Because it is a business. And that's what "mind your own business means"; CE is minding his own business, while JT is minding other's, as well as his.

[MrJan]

JT didn't actually take anything though, he said "this isn't working" and then the team said "well try this guy". It's fine that Toseland had worries about his communication with the engineer IMO, and not his fault that the bloke who was lulmped on him happened to be Colin's bloke. Either way both of them need to sort it out and concentrate on improving the team together.

And I hardly see how being the new guy should make that much of a difference, he's placing around Edwards and therefore deserves as much of a shot. Just because Colin has been underacheiving in GPs for longer shouldn't mean that James should suffer in silence :)

[Hazell B]

It's about time I owned up to being a Toseland fan of several years. I even wear one of his Tshirts while working on racedays, which is pretty brave considering I'm in the 'wrong' bit of Yorkshire to be his fan :p :

Anyway, much as I love the guy, he's a total diva at times. I fully expect that though he may not have started any row with Edwards, he's almost certainly whispering behind his back at times. In short, they're as catty as each other.

In March I had a fiver on with somebody that Toseland wouldn't see the season out. I think he'll have a hissy and walk away and they won't ask him back. It may be a good thing - he's clearly not coping well with the whole series and deserves to be back winning again.

Good to read your input as a fan of JT but with an objective view Hazell. I've thought JT a bit of a "diva" and just too precious for words at times but I am not a fan of either he nor C E anyway. Maybe it's time for someone to bang their heads (helmets) together and suggest they get their heads out of their ........., get on with the rest of the season and earn their squillions.

[NinjaMaster]

I don't understand why everyone keeps saying Edwards should get over it. So the new guy, Toseland says, "I had a communications problem ..." and "I needed someone ... who understood me to help me get to where I want to be".

This is the highest level of motorcycle racing. Edwards needs to feed his family (not his ego). What's he supposed to do, roll over and let this guy walk all over him? Is he supposed to share setups now? Share information? JT took from CE so he could get what he needed so he could be where he wanted to be. Is CE supposed to keep giving and giving?? Or can he just now mind his own business? Because it is a business. And that's what "mind your own business means"; CE is minding his own business, while JT is minding other's, as well as his.

If Colin doesn't want to 'get over it', that's fine. I just don't want to hear about it again - it's old news.
I don't see your ego feeding angle. If anything, Edwards continual bagging of JT and his crew chief is pumping up his own ego. Fortunately we haven't had to listen to it for a while so hopefully it's now about letting the riding to the talking.

[gco0307]

On another forum they had a link to the site: http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/colin-edwards-tells/

It is an interview with Edwards on a number of subjects (some racing, some not). A few excerpts are shown belo.


Guido Meda (Italy’s MotoGP commentator) accused you of being pretty accomodating when Valentino passes you, do you confirm this?
That’s right. It’s something that I picked up when we were teammates. Everyone at Yamaha knew – me, the team and Valentino what was my position was. If I saw Valentino passing me I let him do it and if I was behind him and wanted to pass, I’d do it but kept it clean.
And your team-mate James Toseland? (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/toseland-breaks-silence-colin-edwards/)
He’s an asshole.
Excuse me?
He’s an asshole and his crew chief is an asshole (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/edwards-toseland-rift-tech3-widens/). Last year he was mine, then they got together without telling me anything. The crew chief that I have now is really good, but they shouldn’t have acted that way. If they wanted to work together, we should have sat around a table and discussed it. Instead they did everything behind my back. (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/trouble-yamahas-camp/)
You had a wall put up in your garage (http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/tech3-erects-proverbial-yamaha-wall-motogp-paddock/) just like Rossi and Lorenzo.
Yes, because in races like Qatar and Japan we worked all weekend and then Sunday morning they copied my settings. Assholes!
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/news/colin-edwards-tells/




I have said my piece regarding the need to move on.







Garry

[gco0307]

I don't understand why everyone keeps saying Edwards should get over it. So the new guy, Toseland says, "I had a communications problem ..." and "I needed someone ... who understood me to help me get to where I want to be".

This is the highest level of motorcycle racing. Edwards needs to feed his family (not his ego). What's he supposed to do, roll over and let this guy walk all over him? Is he supposed to share setups now? Share information? JT took from CE so he could get what he needed so he could be where he wanted to be. Is CE supposed to keep giving and giving?? Or can he just now mind his own business? Because it is a business. And that's what "mind your own business means"; CE is minding his own business, while JT is minding other's, as well as his.


I am not sure but you may be misunderstanding what some people mean when they say that CE needs to get over it.

As someone who uses that term (and also move on) it is meant more that CE needs to stop the continual public mentioning of the issues as (IMO) it is purely demeaning to himself as someone who has a wide support because of his 'nice guy' personality. I personally get sick of reading 'arguments' or 'spats' in the press as my concern is that it could well mean that the focus of the rider is not necessarily on achieving the best results but instead more focussed on their team-mate. Yes people always want to beat their team-mate but public attacks are not the correct way to do it (IMO).

It is also quite correct that they have a wall between them but that was done more for spite and mindgames (as IMO was VR with JL, although at least they could argue tyre manufacturers).

It is also true that this is business but I have to disagree (or maybe I misunderstand) when you say that all CE is trying to do is mind his own business whereas JT is minding others. I just done quite understand how JT is minding or are you meaning by way of access to settings etc?

One thing is for certain though, at the moment CE is winning the public and private war/battle, although time will tell ultimately (must admit that I expect CE to be higher at years end)





Garry

[leopard]

Rarely I see both Edwards and Toseland at the front, regardless how have they announced their problem publicly, I think the problem is a non existence. :)

[The Phantom]

Leopard puts it into perspective, LOL!

Yeah, at the end of the day who really cares about a spat between guys running midfield :D

[gco0307]

Leopard puts it into perspective, LOL!

Yeah, at the end of the day who really cares about a spat between guys running midfield :D


Which in itself raises a question of performance of both riders and Yamaha.

ARe Tech3 supposed to be getting the same equipment as the FIAT boys (albeit a little later) or are they a completely separate team who just happen to be running Yamaha?




Garry

[CaptainRaiden]

Which in itself raises a question of performance of both riders and Yamaha.

ARe Tech3 supposed to be getting the same equipment as the FIAT boys (albeit a little later) or are they a completely separate team who just happen to be running Yamaha?


Garry

I think it's the latter, but they are running a 2009 M1. Maybe they are getting the upgrades later, but still they are way off the performances of the factory boys.

I think the problem is with the riders. First of all, neither Edwards or Toseland are anywhere near the riding talent of Rossi or even Lorenzo. Edwards is sometimes blindingly quick in qualifying, but goes back steadily on raceday.

Secondly, Tech 3 were running Michelins last year, and this is their first year on Bridgestones. So, it will take a little time to get used to the new tyres. Having said that, Lorenzo had adapted to Bridgestones on the same Yamaha M1 in a wonderful way, but he is a factory rider, so he has more input in how the bike development evolved during the winter and how it suits him now.

I think Tech 3 would be better off getting rid of either Edwards or Toseland next year, and putting a talent from 250cc on their bike, maybe either Bautista or Simoncelli. I guess more likely to get the boot would be Toseland, and I would bet that either Simoncelli or Bautista are capable of outperforming Edwards. Even Ben Spies would be a very wise choice.

WSBK riders have never really succeeded in MotoGP, not because they are bad riders or anything, but merely due to the different characteristics of the machines. Bayliss, Haga, came and tried, failed and went back and were back to their best in SBK. Edwards and Vermuelen have been trying, and at first I thought it would take some time for Edwards to adjust, and he'll start firing away. But it's taking forever, and probably he never would get used to it.

Vermeulen got a win, but it was in the wet, and if you can only win races when it rains, then you can never become a champion in MotoGP or in any class for that matter. Toseland never really showed any promise, apart from that duel with Rossi at the Island, was it last year?

Much like Suzuki, Tech 3, in my humble opinion, need a better talent to be up there.

[NinjaMaster]

I think it's the latter, but they are running a 2009 M1. Maybe they are getting the upgrades later, but still they are way off the performances of the factory boys.

I think the problem is with the riders. First of all, neither Edwards or Toseland are anywhere near the riding talent of Rossi or even Lorenzo. Edwards is sometimes blindingly quick in qualifying, but goes back steadily on raceday.

Secondly, Tech 3 were running Michelins last year, and this is their first year on Bridgestones. So, it will take a little time to get used to the new tyres. Having said that, Lorenzo had adapted to Bridgestones on the same Yamaha M1 in a wonderful way, but he is a factory rider, so he has more input in how the bike development evolved during the winter and how it suits him now.

I think Tech 3 would be better off getting rid of either Edwards or Toseland next year, and putting a talent from 250cc on their bike, maybe either Bautista or Simoncelli. I guess more likely to get the boot would be Toseland, and I would bet that either Simoncelli or Bautista are capable of outperforming Edwards. Even Ben Spies would be a very wise choice.

WSBK riders have never really succeeded in MotoGP, not because they are bad riders or anything, but merely due to the different characteristics of the machines. Bayliss, Haga, came and tried, failed and went back and were back to their best in SBK. Edwards and Vermuelen have been trying, and at first I thought it would take some time for Edwards to adjust, and he'll start firing away. But it's taking forever, and probably he never would get used to it.

Vermeulen got a win, but it was in the wet, and if you can only win races when it rains, then you can never become a champion in MotoGP or in any class for that matter. Toseland never really showed any promise, apart from that duel with Rossi at the Island, was it last year?

Much like Suzuki, Tech 3, in my humble opinion, need a better talent to be up there.

I think that's a pretty accurate summation X-ecutioner, hence all the talk of Suzuki and Tech3 chasing the 3 riders you mention (though my gut feel is that all 3 are a level below being a MotoGP title contender). Also, Tech3 are at Yamaha's mercy as to how competitive they can be - if they are beating the factory team then support will be reigned back to avoid embarrassment. Suzuki sadly have a history of mediocrity despite having some brilliant talent on hand and that doesn't look like changing any time soon.
I think the only reason that WSB riders haven't been so successful at GP level is more talent related than from a riding technique perspective. Edwards might be mid-pack but he still beats plenty of 'GP' riders. He'll likely get his chance to beat up on WSB riders again next year.

[CaptainRaiden]

I think that's a pretty accurate summation X-ecutioner, hence all the talk of Suzuki and Tech3 chasing the 3 riders you mention (though my gut feel is that all 3 are a level below being a MotoGP title contender).

I agree with you on that point there. I also feel that Bautista, Simoncelli and Spies, all are a touch below than where they need to be to run at the front in MotoGP. But I would also say that either of those three would do a better job than what Edwards and Toseland are doing right now.


I think the only reason that WSB riders haven't been so successful at GP level is more talent related than from a riding technique perspective. Edwards might be mid-pack but he still beats plenty of 'GP' riders. He'll likely get his chance to beat up on WSB riders again next year.

I wonder which team would Edward end up in WSBK. Of course, he would be welcomed with open arms, and I believe he will gladly hop on that second Yamaha, seeing how Tom Sykes has been getting completely destroyed by Spies.

Or maybe a return to Honda for Edwards?

[NinjaMaster]

I agree with you on that point there. I also feel that Bautista, Simoncelli and Spies, all are a touch below than where they need to be to run at the front in MotoGP. But I would also say that either of those three would do a better job than what Edwards and Toseland are doing right now.

Agreed.



I wonder which team would Edward end up in WSBK. Of course, he would be welcomed with open arms, and I believe he will gladly hop on that second Yamaha, seeing how Tom Sykes has been getting completely destroyed by Spies.

Or maybe a return to Honda for Edwards?

There could be 3 Honda ex-WSB guns up for re-hire - Edwards, Toseland and Vermeulen! I'm inclined to think that Edwards would be straight swap with Spies or head to Aprilia. Perhaps even BMW? It would be funny if he and JT returned to WSB and were teammates at Ten Kate! :D Hopefully Sykes isn't turfed after only 1 season, the dude is talented. Give him time like Fabrizio.

[CaptainRaiden]

It would be funny if he and JT returned to WSB and were teammates at Ten Kate!

:laugh: Damn! That would be a nightmare for Ronald ten kate. Speaking about Ten Kate, I think Checa would be replaced, even though he performed well in the last round, he needs to be more consistent now to save his seat for next year, because Honda would have lots of choices if any of those three that you mentioned are shown the door from MotoGP.


Hopefully Sykes isn't turfed after only 1 season, the dude is talented. Give him time like Fabrizio.

Sykes is definitely talented, but I wonder what this season will do to his confidence, after literally being blasted through the door by that freak Spies. Also, since he is on an option contract, he needs to perform better than he is now to extend his contract to 2010.

[gco0307]

Gotta say Ninja that I agree with the straight swap scenario between Edwards and Spies which to me will be a logical Yamaha driven move but I do feel it will only work if Edwards genuinely wants to go to WSBK and is not after a paycheck. Also agree that Sykes should stay and feel that having CE as the team-mate will assist in a lot of ways provided again that CE's ego is not questioned nor challenged.

I do think that Spies has to go MGP and I say that as an initial doubter who has been totally floored by the guys thus far in WSBK. To me I see parralellys with Spies rookie WSBK year to rookie MGP years of Stoner and Lorenzo where the speed was obvious, just that they failed to finish to many times. IMO, he would be a success in MGP as he is somewhat special.

Also agree that some of the 250cc guys should find their way but temper that somewhat by saying (or asking) how MG2 is going to fit into the mix as learning for a year in a 'junior' four-stroke team may be inviting. The big issue is the rookie rule which IMO is pure e anyway and in some ways may be seen as a restraint of trade. I fully expect it to be thrown out by years end.

As for Toseland, I did see glimpses last year of a rider with talent but this year see a guy who has been mind-farked by pressure, expectation and above all his team-mate. He is either headed for a satellite Honda ride (doubtful), Suzuki (don't see JT as an expensive rider) or WSBK but the saving grace could well be will Tech3 replace both riders in the same year, a big risk.

Vermuelen, well I seriously like the guy and have for ages. I mean he is a nice guy, well talented (as wet form shows) and a fellow Aussie, but. Maybe the suzuki isn't the best bike on the grid, maybe he is not getting equal machinery (hypothetical), but his results aren't great and by now (IMO) he should be doing better. To me he had the better option last year when there were rumoured options away from Suzuki. His boat has sailed.



EDIT:
I kind of allude to it in the above, but could MGP2 be the spanner that gets thrown in given that many existing 250cc riders may not make the grade. Could we see an chance for a number of WSBK riders to go to MGP2 as a means of entering MGP wheras in the past they went straight from WSBK to MGP.







Garry

[NinjaMaster]

I never did understand why Ten Kate picked up Checa in the first place. He would definately be the one to make way for a replacement.

It's a tough time for a young up-and-coming rider at the moment because there is so much talent on the rise. Hopefully Sykes can do enough by the end of the season to retain his seat.

[NinjaMaster]

Gotta say Ninja that I agree with the straight swap scenario between Edwards and Spies which to me will be a logical Yamaha driven move but I do feel it will only work if Edwards genuinely wants to go to WSBK and is not after a paycheck. Also agree that Sykes should stay and feel that having CE as the team-mate will assist in a lot of ways provided again that CE's ego is not questioned nor challenged.

Edwards is a competitive beast. Even if WSB isn't where he wants to be, once he was there he would want to win, I've no doubt.



I do think that Spies has to go MGP and I say that as an initial doubter who has been totally floored by the guys thus far in WSBK. To me I see parralellys with Spies rookie WSBK year to rookie MGP years of Stoner and Lorenzo where the speed was obvious, just that they failed to finish to many times. IMO, he would be a success in MGP as he is somewhat special.

The only thing that will stop Spies going to MotoGP is if he can't get a 'competitive' ride. He can't win the title from Tech3 and it's a big call as to whether Suzuki can produce a truly competitive bike. The other wildcard may be Ducati if Hayden has a Melandri season and calls it quits with the red bullet by seasons end.



EDIT:
I kind of allude to it in the above, but could MGP2 be the spanner that gets thrown in given that many existing 250cc riders may not make the grade. Could we see an chance for a number of WSBK riders to go to MGP2 as a means of entering MGP wheras in the past they went straight from WSBK to MGP.

This is actually a good point I hadn't thought of. Will young superbike riders (the likes of Camier, etc.) bypass WSB for Moto2, thus robbing the series of young talent and consigning it to MotoGP rejects and GP not-quites?

[The Phantom]

This is actually a good point I hadn't thought of. Will young superbike riders (the likes of Camier, etc.) bypass WSB for Moto2, thus robbing the series of young talent and consigning it to MotoGP rejects and GP not-quites?

Quite possibly. However, with Moto2 already well and truly over-subscribed there is clearly no shortage of riders and teams wanting in - so it already appears that it might be hard to get in the door, and of course we don't yet know who the fast bikes are going to come from. So riders looking for good rides for 2010 will still need to focus first on WSS/WSB, or sit out another season in their current championship series and perhaps shoot for a 2011 seat in Moto2.

WSB needs to consider this and make their series even more attractive to lure the top up and coming talent.

[gco0307]

Quite possibly. However, with Moto2 already well and truly over-subscribed there is clearly no shortage of riders and teams wanting in - so it already appears that it might be hard to get in the door, and of course we don't yet know who the fast bikes are going to come from. So riders looking for good rides for 2010 will still need to focus first on WSS/WSB, or sit out another season in their current championship series and perhaps shoot for a 2011 seat in Moto2.

WSB needs to consider this and make their series even more attractive to lure the top up and coming talent.


Absolutely, but in 2010 MG2 could be a good landing place for riders displaced or disenchanted in WSBK/WSS as they already have the four stroke inline four experience (in most cases). Post 2010 however I see MG2 as a stepping stone to MGP as it will allow riders to enter at a lower level from both WSS/WSBK, but on similar machiner to that of their experience and also of their end goal of MGP.

IMO, 250CC Two strokes have been a limiting factor to success fo WSBK riders in MGP as it has meant that the rider immediately goes to the 'full blown' level with little chance of an actual learning curve for machinery, environment, atmosphere and expectations.





Garry

[The Phantom]

According to Michael Scott, "Priority would be given to existing 250 teams. Next in line would be MotoGP teams (why not 125? Phantom), then 250 teams from the recent past but not participating this year, then would come 125 teams and finally applicants from outside the paddock".

That's for teams though, and it's up to the teams to recruit the riders. But of course many of the teams high on the priority list will have European sponsors, and that will affect the riders they choose.

Initially planned to be a 34 bike grid, demand is such that the total has been raised to 41 bikes. Deadline for 2010 is now closed (as of Mugello GP), I wonder if Tech 3 are definitely in?

[gco0307]

According to Michael Scott, "Priority would be given to existing 250 teams. Next in line would be MotoGP teams (why not 125? Phantom), then 250 teams from the recent past but not participating this year, then would come 125 teams and finally applicants from outside the paddock".

That's for teams though, and it's up to the teams to recruit the riders. But of course many of the teams high on the priority list will have European sponsors, and that will affect the riders they choose.

Initially planned to be a 34 bike grid, demand is such that the total has been raised to 41 bikes. Deadline for 2010 is now closed (as of Mugello GP), I wonder if Tech 3 are definitely in?


Have you seen that one of the teams that has expressed interest is said to be none other than Kenny Roberts?

IMO, that would be an interesting team (and bring with it an interesting rider choice) as the chassis etc of the KR bikes was magic, they were just let down more by engine.





Garry

A bit off topic but: How do you think Ben Bostrom would go if he got a decent WSBK ride and which teams could be interested if any. What news of the injury prone John Hopkins, how does his future look in WSBK.

[gco0307]

A bit off topic but: How do you think Ben Bostrom would go if he got a decent WSBK ride and which teams could be interested if any. What news of the injury prone John Hopkins, how does his future look in WSBK.


<Flame suit on again>

BBoz has had chances and not produced a number of times at WSBK level (as has Eric)so to me is not and should not be worth a ride as IMO there would be many better options out there that may well have a future and not be a relic of the past.

If BBoz were to get a WSBK ride I suspect that dollars would play a part and would wholly suspect that he has bought plenty to whatever team.




Garry

[The Phantom]

Ben Bostrom took 6 WSB wins in 2001, 5 of them on the trot, he was on fire that year and finished 3rd overall. However, he has been a spectacular let-down in subsequent campaigns. But lately he's been racing at the front in AMA (can't recall which class, it's all a bit of a dogs breakfast these days), so who knows? He always came across to me as a cool headed racer who kept it clean on the track and let his riding do the talking.

I'm guessing he's in his early thirties - that was how old Bayliss was when he first went to WSB...

Edit: he won the AMA Supersport title last year, so he's still doing something right. I reckon more than a few teams in the WSB paddock will be having a look at the US guys, after Spies efforts this year (although the fastest of them isn't much interested in leaving AMA).

[The Phantom]

Hopkins is aiming to be back on the bike this weekend at Misano, hopefully he is able to do so. He is walking ok without crutches, I can't imagine he'll be anywhere near full fitness but it's certainly not the first time he's had to come back from severe injury so he knows what he's got to do.