EMT Haas buy out

[shazbot]

Rumours from Georgia suggest that EMT (Elan Motorsport Technologies) is continuing to struggle and a Haas buy out is all but done. What will Haas do with the facility? Run the race team from there? Bid on the new IRL car and become a manufacturer? F1 effort? Who knows? From the worlds largest race car builder to a fire sale in a few years.

[Jag_Warrior]

If true, big Wow!!!

[Mad_Hatter]

Weren't they supposed to be building a new prototype in the near future? Or is that Panoz separately?

[Chamoo]

Weren't they supposed to be building a new prototype in the near future? Or is that Panoz separately?

I believe that is Panoz seperately.

As for an ICS chassis, in a recent Q&A done with Dallara president Andrea Toso, by Planet-IRL, Toso didn't mention anything about having the exclusive rights to the new chassis. Maybe the IRL renegged on the single chassis idea?

You can find the interview here (http://planet-irl.blogspot.com/2009/06/q-with-andrea-toso.html).

[MDS]

Which Haas, Carl or Gene?

[Jag_Warrior]

I would say it's Carl. Gene just got out of prison and is still trying to get the basics of his life back together.

[nigelred5]

I have a friend that works at EMT, she's heard nothing.

[dataman1]

No argument Nigel, however we heard that the merge rumors were all fiction at Champcar headquarters even from the CEO and PR guy right up until the day of the announcement. Can't trust those guys at the top to let the little guys in on the deal.

[nigelred5]

I don't doubt they are struggling with virtually all of the series they build/ built cars for either under a chassis freeze/ bankrupt or had their chassis legislated out of spec.
A nice fat contract to produce 60-70 of these for the next Indycar would help matters.
http://www.superleagueformula.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media-area/image-gallery/ac-milan/sf-round-1-uk/0e1p2796/115515-1-eng-GB/0E1P2796.jpg

but I know it's just a dream to have a nice looking domestically produced replacement for the Dallara.

oh wow, better leave that as a link.

[shazbot]

I have a friend that works at EMT, she's heard nothing.

Maybe she's too busy working - Haas have been auditing the place. There's also a rumour doing the rounds that NASCAR are interested in Road Atlanta.

[jimispeed]

http://www.superleagueformula.com/var/ezflow_site/storage/images/media-area/image-gallery/ac-milan/sf-round-1-uk/0e1p2796/115515-1-eng-GB/0E1P2796.jpg

but I know it's just a dream to have a nice looking domestically produced replacement for the Dallara.

Superleague Formula isn't bad, but they removed the sexy lines, by adding the airbox, and those body wing thingees.

The DP01 retained the sleek lines, and the signature hoop.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NVIyqlcHzR4/SAVx8RJ8h_I/AAAAAAAACQ8/_iT6hvD3Atw/s1600/CCWS%2BPANOZ%2BDP01%2B-%2BIRL%2BDALLARA%2B-%2B600.jpg

http://www.rfmsports.com/images/cleveland_wilsonrace.jpg

[V12]

I'd love it if Dallara and Panoz were able to start competing again. Lola too if they're up for it.

Beauty is subjective, and IMO - The DP01 is ugly, not because of its lines or whathaveyou, but because it was produced to a spec. The Dallara at least won a survival of the best contest with the Panoz before becoming de facto (which was fine), and then de jure (which wasn't), spec car.

[shazbot]

Champ Car's demise hurt Elan - the cars where sold cheap with virtually no profit - the spares side of racing would have been the money maker had the series survived. The Superleague series needs to survive for the same reason although they are more expensive to buy than the Champ Car inspite of being the same thing under the skin. It's a nice looking car and produces very similar downforce levels to the Champ Car but without the under bodyaero.

[CCWS77]

I'd love it if Dallara and Panoz were able to start competing again. Lola too if they're up for it.

Beauty is subjective, and IMO - The DP01 is ugly, not because of its lines or whathaveyou, but because it was produced to a spec. The Dallara at least won a survival of the best contest with the Panoz before becoming de facto (which was fine), and then de jure (which wasn't), spec car.

Your "philosophy" is rendered absurd by the fact that we all know the DP01 is faster then the IRL Dallara and Champ Car teams would have taken it to the Indy 500 if allowed to. That is some twisted logic to blame a rule someone else made to keep the faster car out, as a reason why it is flawed and didn't prove itself!

[jimispeed]

I wish they would have tested the DP01 on an oval right away, and then presented it in Milwaukee.

Never was given the chance to surface....

[indycool]

Under the circumstances of the split, and different rules, and there wasn't enough of the DP-01s built, that wasn't a choice.

[shazbot]

Jeeez, this is a well worn path! Do we have to go down this road again? "oooh, I think the DP01 is pretty" "No way the Dallara is way cooler" etc, etc,etc,etc and on and on and on :rolleyes:

[dataman1]

Back on topic:

So is Dr. Panoz dumping racing investments as the rumors seem to support (Elan & Road Atlanta)? Could he be selling pieces of his group to help fund ALMS? Maybe ALMS needs cash to prop up there purse to lure Audi and Peugot back across the pond?? Who knows? Just ramblings from an idle mind.

[chuck34]

Your "philosophy" is rendered absurd by the fact that we all know the DP01 is faster then the IRL Dallara and Champ Car teams would have taken it to the Indy 500 if allowed to. That is some twisted logic to blame a rule someone else made to keep the faster car out, as a reason why it is flawed and didn't prove itself!

My understanding is that the DP01 was not designed for ovals AT ALL. That means that it is/was much lighter, and less crash-worthy. If someone would have taken one to Indy, I would hate to think what would happen to the first guy to hit the wall.

It's not enough just to be "faster", you must also fit the rules. And the original point was that the Dallara won (by quite a large margin, I must add) a constructor's war between themselves and Panoz. So to then compare the Dallara to a chassis made by the same company they just vanquished, but made to different rules is illogical.

[Mark in Oshawa]

My understanding is that the DP01 was not designed for ovals AT ALL. That means that it is/was much lighter, and less crash-worthy. If someone would have taken one to Indy, I would hate to think what would happen to the first guy to hit the wall.

It's not enough just to be "faster", you must also fit the rules. And the original point was that the Dallara won (by quite a large margin, I must add) a constructor's war between themselves and Panoz. So to then compare the Dallara to a chassis made by the same company they just vanquished, but made to different rules is illogical.


Chuck..you make it sound like an Indy car has to be a tank to hit the wall at Indy. I have news for you. If the guys who designed the DP-01 didn't make it robust enough to hit the wall at Indy, It likely wouldn't likely survive pounding a wall on a street course if the brakes failed either. Trust me, whatever that car would need in retrofits, I suspect it would be minor. Carbon fiber chassis are stiff and strong no matter what series you enter the car in.

This fallacy that the DP-01 isn't tough enough to run on ovals is getting old. It likely is a damn sight safer than anything that was running around the Brickyard 15 years ago....

[indycool]

Mark, we'll never know. The DP-01 had no oval tesding and there wasn't even a kit built for it because it wasn't needed. And hitting the wall on a street course at 100 mph is a lot different than hitting a wall at Indy at 220.

[jimispeed]

My understanding is that the DP01 was not designed for ovals AT ALL. That means that it is/was much lighter, and less crash-worthy. If someone would have taken one to Indy, I would hate to think what would happen to the first guy to hit the wall.

It's not enough just to be "faster", you must also fit the rules. And the original point was that the Dallara won (by quite a large margin, I must add) a constructor's war between themselves and Panoz. So to then compare the Dallara to a chassis made by the same company they just vanquished, but made to different rules is illogical.



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NVIyqlcHzR4/SAVx8RJ8h_I/AAAAAAAACQ8/_iT6hvD3Atw/s1600/CCWS%2BPANOZ%2BDP01%2B-%2BIRL%2BDALLARA%2B-%2B600.jpg

Read It, before making statements!! It could have been tested on ovals, and maybe used as the new chassis for Indycar right now! It was supposedly built to be the safest open wheel car, even surpassing F1's standards. There may also could be an American chassis manufacturer surviving in their business, if the so called "merge" was done patiently, and correctly! (let's not go there!!)

The injury to PT was a positioning of the seatbelt issue. Terry Tramell discovered it!

We'll probably never know........

[indycool]

Coulda, woulda, shoulda, supposedly.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, we'll never know. The DP-01 had no oval tesding and there wasn't even a kit built for it because it wasn't needed. And hitting the wall on a street course at 100 mph is a lot different than hitting a wall at Indy at 220.

IC...you are surely not so naive to think 100mph is the quickest speed cars were hitting on street courses. Then add in that no engineer with half a brain would engineer the car to survive just a worst case scenario. They add in a fudge factor on top of that. I have NO doubt in my mind if the DP-01 was designed to protect a driver crashing at 180 plus on the Lakeshore of Toronto, or going off the long straights at Road America knocking on 200, it is probably going to be robust enough with little modification to run at Indy. I have seen a Dallara up close. Last time I looked, it was NO tank.

It is a fallacy that the DP-01 was never going to be suitable for ovals. IF the Panoz family is building a race car for Champ Car the way things were 3 years ago, you can bet they told the engineers to build in some structure to run ovals with. The car was designed for Champ Car, but the changing face of racing and the fact the IRL would need a new chassis at some point you can bet were all factors in the design. I would love to talk to one of the engineers and get it from the horse's mouth but I have no doubt that this car is not fragile. It may not have been built for Indy, but I suspect it could run there.

[indycool]

Agree on straights like Elkhart, Mark, although there are few road courses where you hit walls. You specified street courses in your post and that is what I referred to.

[chuck34]

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_NVIyqlcHzR4/SAVx8RJ8h_I/AAAAAAAACQ8/_iT6hvD3Atw/s1600/CCWS%2BPANOZ%2BDP01%2B-%2BIRL%2BDALLARA%2B-%2B600.jpg

Read It, before making statements!! It could have been tested on ovals, and maybe used as the new chassis for Indycar right now! It was supposedly built to be the safest open wheel car, even surpassing F1's standards. There may also could be an American chassis manufacturer surviving in their business, if the so called "merge" was done patiently, and correctly! (let's not go there!!)

The injury to PT was a positioning of the seatbelt issue. Terry Tramell discovered it!

We'll probably never know........


I can't read what you posted. Stupid blockers here at work. Can you give me a run down? I distinctly remember hearing that the DP-01 was not designed with ovals in mind. But if I am wrong then so be it. But there are a lot of other factors that go into crash-worthyness than just chassis structure.

And Mark, I never said the chassis has to be a tank. Quite oposite really. You want some crushable structure in strategic locations. Andy yes I'm sure the DP-01 would be much safer than cars running there 15 years ago. But that is a non-starter. If they are less safe than what we have NOW, they are no good.

[Jag_Warrior]

Back on topic:

So is Dr. Panoz dumping racing investments as the rumors seem to support (Elan & Road Atlanta)? Could he be selling pieces of his group to help fund ALMS? Maybe ALMS needs cash to prop up there purse to lure Audi and Peugot back across the pond?? Who knows? Just ramblings from an idle mind.

Unless things have changed, I don't believe purses are available to manufacturer backed teams in ALMS. What's going to lure Audi and Porshe (Peugeot was basically just here to validate systems and practice for Le Mans... they don't sell cars in N.A.) back across the pond is people buying cars again. ALMS is (IMO) the best showcase for automobile technology on this continent, if not the world (including the LMS here). I can say that my opinion of diesels certainly changed after seeing what Audi and Peugeot have done with their race cars. Apparently they don't stink, they don't smoke like a freight train and they don't sound like a sack full of pots and pans being beaten with a baseball bat. That's more than I can say for the last Mercedes diesel car that I rode in many years ago. Audi successfully used the ALMS (and Le Mans) to really change that poor image that diesels had.

I'm not sure what, if anything, Dr. Panoz is up to. I'd say he's been hurt by this financial crisis like everyone else. Maybe he's paring down... maybe he's not. :confused:

[jimispeed]

One more link.

http://www.bsmotorsport.com/Bridgestone/en-gb/Championships/Other/News/Archive/2006/CCWSNewsNew07Panoz.htm

shouldacouldawoulda

[shazbot]

You've got me at it now deviating off my own thread topic. The Panoz Champ Car was designed and built to a set of specs put down by Champ Car, right down to the downforce/drag levels. Every design step was carried out with Champ Car looking over the shoulder at Elan, including the way the car looked. The car was not intended to race on an oval and no design work was carried out to that end (speedway aero package, suspension etc). The car passed the F1 standard front impact test but not F1 side impact, unlike the Superleague car which had additional side impact structures bonded to the Champ Car Chassis (and eventually passed the F1 test). Interestingly there was a wind tunnel model mock up of a hybrid Panoz Champ/IRL car when a merger looked likely.

[jimispeed]

The Panoz’ exposed roll bar, low engine cover encasing the spec Ford/Cosworth XFE and aggressive nose – complete with shock tower “bubbles” – pay obvious deference its Champ Car heritage, while its radiator inlets, front wings and shark fin air extraction slots are reminiscent of current F1 practice.

Elkins says three key factors drove the DP01’s design.

“We wanted to improve the safety. Second, we wanted to reduce the operating costs, and finally we wanted to make the car race better. We had different ways of doing all three and I believe we have achieved all of them.”

“The safety is pretty obvious,” he says. “We’re meeting all the FIA F1 crash standards, plus we’ve adjusted them for our speed and the weight of our car. And we are meeting a couple of other standards: a double crash [secondary impact - Ed] on the nose and we’ve changed the seat back angle to help reduce the stress on a driver’s back in rear impacts.”


As well, the side intrusion panels added to Champ Cars in the wake of Alex Zanardi’s horrific accident in 2001 have been incorporated into the design of the DP01, resulting in a monocoque that is both stronger and lighter than the Lola’s.

Aerodynamically, the DP01 represents a radical departure from previous Champ Cars. Although total downforce is largely unchanged, the bulk of that downforce is generated by massive underbody tunnels rather than the front and rear wings.

According to Elkins, computational fluid dynamic studies indicate the DP01 will create as less turbulence in its wake than current cars, making it easier for competitors following in that wake to attempt overtaking manoeuvres.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I am going to say this until I am blue in the face. The Champ Car people who were standing over Elan while this car was being built I am sure were never going to say never when it came to ovals. Furthermore, whether you smack a wall at 180 when an upright breaks on the Lakeshore in Toronto, smack the wall at Road America when you are hauling down the main straight when it breaks, or smacking the wall at Indy, it is one hell of a hit. If the DP-01 can stand up to the f1 standard, I am sure minor mods could be added to make the car Speedway ready.

This is a circular argument. There are people on here who, god love em don't seem to grasp that the DP-01 is a race car built with 2005 and newer crash standards in mind. Driving at Indy is NOT unique for any reason other than an extra 20 mph that you would get there that the DP-01 wouldn't get on its fastest venues. While I realize forces go up with speed, I am sure the people who designed this car were thinking down the road. No engineer with half a brain would not think to the future and considering the history of what has gone on, not thought about ovals at least in the abstract. Consdiering this, the car in its one year of competition proved itself to be a pretty good piece and with the exception of PT's weird little chat with the wall, a good one.

No race car can promise to not injure its driver at 220 mph, but I am sure with the crushable pads they put in the Dallara and the HANS, the DP-01 would be as safe for the most part as the Dallara.

The whole argument is just silly. Whatever the "next" car will be for Indy Car, I hope there is more than ONE chassis, that the car is safe, and please...can we have something that doesn't look like it was 20 years old in some of its design elements and just have weird lines??

The Dallara in Road/Street trim isn't a bad looking race car, but dated in its design. In Speedway trim? Goofy looking....never have gotten my arms around that design. Safe is it? It wasn't initially but yes I think it is reasonably safe now. Still not such a paradigm of safety that I would put it over the DP-01...which was a better looking race car. Just is....

[chuck34]

F1 crash standards are not the end-all-be-all of crash standards. Does anyone honestly believe that an F1 car would "do well" in a crash at Indy?

And Mark, while I agree with a lot of what you say, it isn't 20mph more at Indy over a road course. It's more like 40-45. And remember energy increases with the velocity squared. KE=mv^2. So the energy goes WAY up with an increase of 40mph (about 30.5% if my math is right).

But again, I don't KNOW what went in to the design of the DP-01. Perhaps it could be ok. And I know that no car will ever be completely 100% safe. That's not the argument.

I'm with you on wanting more than one chassis, but I don't see that in the cards right now. But that is why I DO like the Dallara more than the DP01. I'm a form follows function type of guy. And the Dallara was designed for a purpose (to beat it's competitor, Panoz) which it did VERY well. The DP01 was never designed to compete against anyone. Plus to me it always looked just like an Atlantic car.

[Mark in Oshawa]

F1 crash standards are not the end-all-be-all of crash standards. Does anyone honestly believe that an F1 car would "do well" in a crash at Indy? .

It did during the USGP and they were hauling the mail pretty good down the straights there. Yes, Ralf got injured, but that was WITH the foam in the corner. F1 crash standards are pretty much a world standard, and considering the lighter weight of the f1 car, that could be the only fault I would find with them. That said, I refuse to believe anyone would design a car for the type of racing Champ Car was aiming for and not think about ovals at some point.


And Mark, while I agree with a lot of what you say, it isn't 20mph more at Indy over a road course. It's more like 40-45. And remember energy increases with the velocity squared. KE=mv^2. So the energy goes WAY up with an increase of 40mph (about 30.5% if my math is right)..

I am VERY well aware of that, and I would wager that you could say the Dallara still fails to protect its driver if you looked at it from the injury Vitor received this year. I happen to think however no race car is 100% safe. Since neither of us was in the engineering offices of Elan/Panoz, we wont know but I say again, they were not stupid people. They knew that this car at some point might end up on an oval and there is very likely very little changes that would have to be made to the safety structures if any. Most of the mods for ovals have to do with aero bits and the fuel buckeye.


But again, I don't KNOW what went in to the design of the DP-01. Perhaps it could be ok. And I know that no car will ever be completely 100% safe. That's not the argument..

See above..lol


I'm with you on wanting more than one chassis, but I don't see that in the cards right now. But that is why I DO like the Dallara more than the DP01. I'm a form follows function type of guy. And the Dallara was designed for a purpose (to beat it's competitor, Panoz) which it did VERY well. The DP01 was never designed to compete against anyone. Plus to me it always looked just like an Atlantic car.

The Dallara may have been designed for a purpose, and the DP was too. The DP may not have had a competitor, but it was in a sense designed to compete with the Lola and Reynards it was replacing. The best analogy I can make is this: The p-47 was designed to knock down German Airplanes. The Spitfire and Mustang were also designed to knock down German Airplanes. Two are better looking than the p-47 but they all did the job. Since we are appealing to car guys, and asking people to watch these cars, a better looking car to me would be an asset.

[chuck34]

It did during the USGP and they were hauling the mail pretty good down the straights there. Yes, Ralf got injured, but that was WITH the foam in the corner. F1 crash standards are pretty much a world standard, and considering the lighter weight of the f1 car, that could be the only fault I would find with them. That said, I refuse to believe anyone would design a car for the type of racing Champ Car was aiming for and not think about ovals at some point.



I am VERY well aware of that, and I would wager that you could say the Dallara still fails to protect its driver if you looked at it from the injury Vitor received this year. I happen to think however no race car is 100% safe. Since neither of us was in the engineering offices of Elan/Panoz, we wont know but I say again, they were not stupid people. They knew that this car at some point might end up on an oval and there is very likely very little changes that would have to be made to the safety structures if any. Most of the mods for ovals have to do with aero bits and the fuel buckeye.



See above..lol



The Dallara may have been designed for a purpose, and the DP was too. The DP may not have had a competitor, but it was in a sense designed to compete with the Lola and Reynards it was replacing. The best analogy I can make is this: The p-47 was designed to knock down German Airplanes. The Spitfire and Mustang were also designed to knock down German Airplanes. Two are better looking than the p-47 but they all did the job. Since we are appealing to car guys, and asking people to watch these cars, a better looking car to me would be an asset.

I don't remember the speeds of F1 at Indy, but they were significantly lower than IRL speeds. Especially in T1. F1 crash standards may be "World Class", but most of the world does not race at Indy.

I beg to differ. The P-47 was/is a much sexier plane. I love that thing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I don't remember the speeds of F1 at Indy, but they were significantly lower than IRL speeds. Especially in T1. F1 crash standards may be "World Class", but most of the world does not race at Indy.

I beg to differ. The P-47 was/is a much sexier plane. I love that thing.


OVER A SPITFIRE???: GOOD LORD.....

F1 cars were just over 200 as they hit the end of the straight at Indy. Fast enough to kill someone if they ate wall at the wrong angle.

[chuck34]

OVER A SPITFIRE???: GOOD LORD.....

F1 cars were just over 200 as they hit the end of the straight at Indy. Fast enough to kill someone if they ate wall at the wrong angle.

Yes for me it goes P-47, P-51, then far below would be the Spitfire. Sorry, it's just an opinion. Obviously the wrong one. :-)

The end of the straight for F1 guys is not a turn with a wall. That means less danger. But you are right, if something broke there (ala TK) they could be in deep trouble. And the drivers were concerned about that.

[IMSA]

Your "philosophy" is rendered absurd by the fact that we all know the DP01 is faster then the IRL Dallara and Champ Car teams would have taken it to the Indy 500 if allowed to. That is some twisted logic to blame a rule someone else made to keep the faster car out, as a reason why it is flawed and didn't prove itself!

DP01 faster than the Dallara?? Chassis to chassis - no one knows this and CANNOT be compared due to the engines in each.

The put a Cosworth with 750hp in a Dallara, then compare or put the Honda with 625hp in the DP01 and compare.

Talk about "twisted logic".

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes for me it goes P-47, P-51, then far below would be the Spitfire. Sorry, it's just an opinion. Obviously the wrong one. :-)

The end of the straight for F1 guys is not a turn with a wall. That means less danger. But you are right, if something broke there (ala TK) they could be in deep trouble. And the drivers were concerned about that.

You and I have to discuss aircraft some day. The Spit was designed with such beautiful lines that it seemed a shame that the plane was designed to kill. A P-47? Well the engineers won on that one...no aesthtics, just brute power.

As for the end of the straight at Indy, and the wall in one, which was the LAST corner for the f1 guys, they were hauling through there at a pretty good clip, probably 180 plus and accelerating.

I think any race car designed to go 200 plus is going to be designed with walls in mind. I don't understand how any car can built to go that fast and not be built with enough structure to try to take on any possible scenario.

[Mark in Oshawa]

DP01 faster than the Dallara?? Chassis to chassis - no one knows this and CANNOT be compared due to the engines in each.

The put a Cosworth with 750hp in a Dallara, then compare or put the Honda with 625hp in the DP01 and compare.

Talk about "twisted logic".


I would have to agree. We never have seen the two on the same track with the same engine. I do think the DP-01 with more power is going to win in most situations, but again, that is engine related, not chassis related.

[shazbot]

And so the long day wears on........................

[chuck34]

You and I have to discuss aircraft some day. The Spit was designed with such beautiful lines that it seemed a shame that the plane was designed to kill. A P-47? Well the engineers won on that one...no aesthtics, just brute power.

As for the end of the straight at Indy, and the wall in one, which was the LAST corner for the f1 guys, they were hauling through there at a pretty good clip, probably 180 plus and accelerating.

I think any race car designed to go 200 plus is going to be designed with walls in mind. I don't understand how any car can built to go that fast and not be built with enough structure to try to take on any possible scenario.

I suppose the fact I'm an engineer has something to do with my love of the P-47 then. Again function wins over form in my "eye".

I guess the bottom line in all this is that I wish I knew more about what went into designing these cars. The more you learn, the more you learn you don't know.

[Jag_Warrior]

F1 crash standards are not the end-all-be-all of crash standards. Does anyone honestly believe that an F1 car would "do well" in a crash at Indy?

In just a few minutes of Googling, I've been able to find quite a few articles on FIA/F1 crash standards. I also found this YouTube video which offers some good details. If you want to skip to the testing phase, go to about 2:00 minutes in. As Gary Savage says, "in the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One, the driver will survive."
From that, I take it that if F1 cars were to run on ovals, then yeah, I'd trust them at least as much as I would an IRL car. I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't.
WrO8x4HAK28

a2H_leY_Q8k


I found a couple of videos on the IRL, but nothing so far on the car itself. What crash standards is Dallara held to by the IRL?
ZaXZS8yTNR4


yehFCnRCIt8

[chuck34]

"in the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One, the driver will survive."


So the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One include 240-250mph crashes at Indy. Ok cool.

Thanks for all the videos though they were fun to watch. I did notice one thing though. In the second video (the one with Jackie Stewart) there were a few frames there that described the test being done. It said 780kgs 14mps. 780kgs is 1716lbs so that seems reasonable between F1 and IRL. But the 14mps is a bit slow. 14 meters per second is equal to 31.3 miles per hour. Not exaclty a "high speed" impact. That is in the range of what PT went through at Long Beach. How did the DP-01 stack up in this test? What are the criteria for "passing" this test?

The IRL videos (the last two) were cool to see as well. I would have thought that they would test to a higher level than 70g, but that is getting up there. And it proves that the IRL/Dallara are constantly improving their design. It may appear "slow" to some, but to me it is deliberate and methodical. They don't want to screw something up in another area by the "fix" they impliment for this problem.

And no, without doing a lot of digging that I'm not going to do now, I don't know what crash standards the IRL holds their cars to. But I also don't know the standards F1 holds their cars to (other than there is a 30mph front end test, but I don't know what is a "pass" for that test). Nor do I know what standards CC/CART held their cars to. Perhaps I'll dig into that tomorrow.

[jimispeed]

So the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One include 240-250mph crashes at Indy. Ok cool.

Thanks for all the videos though they were fun to watch. I did notice one thing though. In the second video (the one with Jackie Stewart) there were a few frames there that described the test being done. It said 780kgs 14mps. 780kgs is 1716lbs so that seems reasonable between F1 and IRL. But the 14mps is a bit slow. 14 meters per second is equal to 31.3 miles per hour. Not exaclty a "high speed" impact. That is in the range of what PT went through at Long Beach. How did the DP-01 stack up in this test? What are the criteria for "passing" this test?

The IRL videos (the last two) were cool to see as well. I would have thought that they would test to a higher level than 70g, but that is getting up there. And it proves that the IRL/Dallara are constantly improving their design. It may appear "slow" to some, but to me it is deliberate and methodical. They don't want to screw something up in another area by the "fix" they impliment for this problem.

And no, without doing a lot of digging that I'm not going to do now, I don't know what crash standards the IRL holds their cars to. But I also don't know the standards F1 holds their cars to (other than there is a 30mph front end test, but I don't know what is a "pass" for that test). Nor do I know what standards CC/CART held their cars to. Perhaps I'll dig into that tomorrow.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ByotKbusU&feature=related

Standards were pretty high if you ask me!!

[Jag_Warrior]

So the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One include 240-250mph crashes at Indy. Ok cool.

If that's how you interpreted what Gary Savage said, then yes, "OK cool."

But I interpreted what he said to mean that the safety designed into F1 cars is dependent on the types of courses run in F1. Which led to my statement:

From that, I take it that if F1 cars were to run on ovals, then yeah, I'd trust them at least as much as I would an IRL car. I can't think of a reason why I wouldn't.




Thanks for all the videos though they were fun to watch. I did notice one thing though. In the second video (the one with Jackie Stewart) there were a few frames there that described the test being done. It said 780kgs 14mps. 780kgs is 1716lbs so that seems reasonable between F1 and IRL. But the 14mps is a bit slow. 14 meters per second is equal to 31.3 miles per hour. Not exaclty a "high speed" impact. That is in the range of what PT went through at Long Beach. How did the DP-01 stack up in this test? What are the criteria for "passing" this test?

The IRL videos (the last two) were cool to see as well. I would have thought that they would test to a higher level than 70g, but that is getting up there. And it proves that the IRL/Dallara are constantly improving their design. It may appear "slow" to some, but to me it is deliberate and methodical. They don't want to screw something up in another area by the "fix" they impliment for this problem.

And no, without doing a lot of digging that I'm not going to do now, I don't know what crash standards the IRL holds their cars to. But I also don't know the standards F1 holds their cars to (other than there is a 30mph front end test, but I don't know what is a "pass" for that test). Nor do I know what standards CC/CART held their cars to. Perhaps I'll dig into that tomorrow.

These might be excellent questions for Steve Matchett or Bob Varsha over on the Speed Board.

[chuck34]

If that's how you interpreted what Gary Savage said, then yes, "OK cool."

But I interpreted what he said to mean that the safety designed into F1 cars is dependent on the types of courses run in F1. Which led to my statement:


That's my point. Everyone is saying that F1 crash standards are so great, and they are for the type of environments that a F1 car is expected to see. But an F1 car isn't really ever expected to see the type of environment that an IndyCar sees at Indy. That is why I question the validity of a DP01 being "up to standard" for a crash at Indy when it passed the F1 test. It very well could be, but you can't just assume that since a chassis has passed F1 standards that it passes IRL standards. Again, they may be one-in-the-same, but my first thought is that they probably aren't.

I'll do some digging later and see if I can find out.

[chuck34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=__ByotKbusU&feature=related

Standards were pretty high if you ask me!!

Jimi, I'm not ignoring you on this one, I'll have to respond later. I can't watch YouTube here at work. I watched those other vids at home last night. I'll get to this one when I get home later. :-)

[shazbot]

F1 crash tests are much tougher to pass than the IRL. Look at the rule book for each. This has been covered here before. This thread was started to encourge talk on the state of US based race car builders, not re hash time old arguments. Start another thread on what your favorite race car colour is, or which would rather crash at Indy.

This has been posted before.........

IRL Roll Hoop - 25kN Laterally, 50 kN longitudinally, 70kN vertically
F1 Roll Hoop - 50kN Laterally, 60 kN longitudinally, 90kN vertically

IRL front impact test @ 12m/s (there is a secondary impact test @ 8.5 m/s)
F1 front impact test @ 15m/s

[MDS]

Man, I love that this argument is still going on despite the fact its two years or more out of date.

The Champ Car crash spec included oval impacts because Champ Car fully intended on returning to ovals at some point in the future and had requirements that met or exceeded the Indy crash standard. Do you honestly think that drivers like Justin Wilson and Paul Tracy would have accepted a car with a lower crash test rating than the Lola? Do you think they didn't ask questions or express concerns? Of course they did.

The big reason the Panzo wasn't used with the Dallara is that the road course test they did at Homestead with Danica and Marco in trimmed out Dallaras against Oriol Servia in a Panzo with the boost toned out Oriol schooled them by about 3 seconds per lap and there was no way to speed up the Dallara and no way to slow down the Panzo. Now part of that is Oriol is a far superior road course driver then those two, but the car was at least a second of it.

The big reason the Panzo wasn't used instead of the Dallara was time. There had never been an oval test and they didn't have time to practice the package and get everything together before homestead. There are also some people who will tell you that the choice of machine was to spite the transition teams, that in no world was TG about to hand any kind of advantage to the CC teams.

Dallara should be dumped for an American manufacter, or at least allow a competitor to come in. The state those things come from the factor in is really sad. None of the panels fit, the entire car needs to be massaged. Once a team receives a new chasis from Italy there are at least 1,000 additional man hours that go into doing the finishing work that should have been done at the factory. The other reason is the exchange rate and turn around time. Also, it doesn't hurt to have a "Made in America" label on your car, because right now most of the drivers, fuel, and chassis come from overseas. Not really a great thing for a series that was supposed to be American drivers on American tracks in American equipment.

Also, having different chassis will probably help competition and keep costs down.

[DBell]

So the sort of impacts that happen in Formula One include 240-250mph crashes at Indy. Ok cool.


When the V10's were still used, F1 cars were getting close to 230 mph at Monza and well over 200 at several other tracks like Spa and Indy. Even though terminal speed is a bit less with the V8's, I would imagine that the crash test standards are the same if not raised since a few years ago. There is some concrete areas at Monza and I would think that it would be possible for a crash to occur like Kannan's at Indy this year. To me, I think Tony's crash represents the kind of highest speed crash there is, to where the car has reached near top speed and something breaks and the car goes straight into a wall with out spinning and very little speed scrubbed off. So if F1 cars are built to withstand the types of impacts possible, then I would think this type of crash would've been considered.

Then again, I am NOT an engineer and maybe my post is all crap. :D

[chuck34]

F1 crash tests are much tougher to pass than the IRL. Look at the rule book for each. This has been covered here before. This thread was started to encourge talk on the state of US based race car builders, not re hash time old arguments. Start another thread on what your favorite race car colour is, or which would rather crash at Indy.

This has been posted before.........

IRL Roll Hoop - 25kN Laterally, 50 kN longitudinally, 70kN vertically
F1 Roll Hoop - 50kN Laterally, 60 kN longitudinally, 90kN vertically

IRL front impact test @ 12m/s (there is a secondary impact test @ 8.5 m/s)
F1 front impact test @ 15m/s

Where did you find the IRL testing? I have found the F1 standards, and there are plenty more than just the static roll hoop test. I would like to know how the rest compares between the two.

I am VERY surprised that the speeds are so low. The secondary impact on the IRL tub is pretty significant, I would think anyway.

Thanks for the help.

[Chris R]

If this was covered already, my apologies, but I would think the biggest difference between a road course and oval crash is the chances of and severity of secondary and tertiary impacts. My quick read of some of the previous posts indicates that the IRL tests for secondary impact and F-1 does not - is that correct??

[indycool]

All conjecture. What everyone is forgetting is the time factor. If there was going to be one series in 2008, it HAD to be with the IRL package. There weren't enough DP-01s built to supply the teams. If it was faster or slower on the road course it didn't matter, because competition would be destroyed with 100 more HP in the DP-01. To have a series in '08, decisions had to be made on a time factor, as a priority, over anything else.

[shazbot]

Where did you find the IRL testing? I have found the F1 standards, and there are plenty more than just the static roll hoop test. I would like to know how the rest compares between the two.

I am VERY surprised that the speeds are so low. The secondary impact on the IRL tub is pretty significant, I would think anyway.

Thanks for the help.

The F1 regs are easily available from the FIA site (which you've probably found), and I have an IRL rule book. The F1 standards are much more specific and thorough. The examples I used where just for referance. The F1 regs are pretty specific when it comes to G loadings for impact tests. For example you can make a nose that doesn't crush all the way back to the chassis but it must also deform in such a way that a specified G loading is not exceeded. As I've said before the Panoz Champ Car did not have side impact structures (neither does the Dallara) that would pass the F1 test. The Panoz Superleague car did, and it passed along with the nose test, roll hoop impact test and the roll hoop 'push off' test, all to F1 standards.

There was a brief moment when unification with the Panoz chassis (with Honda motor and IRL style engine cover) was on the cards. This was short lived and only reached wind tunnel mock up form (the 50% scale Champ Car model was kitted out with Panoz 50% IRL model bodywork and speedway wings). Didn't look too bad actually.

[NickFalzone]

In a high speed oval crash, I would by far prefer to be in a current IRL car than either a DP01 or an F1 car. On a road course, I'd prefer any but the IRL car. The minimum crash requirements are one thing, but the reality is that the Dallara is the safest open-wheel race car for Indy right now and the safety aspects of other current cars are pure speculation. Without the high speed crashes to point towards, my guess is that they would be deficient in several areas that are not known right now.

[shazbot]

So you would rather crash in a mass produced spec car not built to F1 standards!? The IRL cars may look hefty but either side of the driver there's just bodywork and a radiator duct, no side impact attenuating device. I've worked on both current IRL cars and F1 cars and there's no way you would get me in a IRL chassis if I was going to have a shunt, oval or road course.

[NickFalzone]

Side impact cushioning was added to the IRL cars sometime last season, and were the primary reason why Kanaan got away from that 175 g hit at Indy without any more than some bruised ribs.

[indycool]

Since the IRL began racing, measures have been taken slowly and surely to beef up the cockpit area of the Dallara....configuration of sidepods, higher sidepods, head protection, etc.

[chuck34]

So you would rather crash in a mass produced spec car not built to F1 standards!? The IRL cars may look hefty but either side of the driver there's just bodywork and a radiator duct, no side impact attenuating device. I've worked on both current IRL cars and F1 cars and there's no way you would get me in a IRL chassis if I was going to have a shunt, oval or road course.

In a word, YES. The Dallara has been crash tested a whole bunch (unfortunately) on high speed ovals. The F1 cars, not so much. I'll take real world crash data and fixes over lab results any day.

While you are correct that the F1 stadards are higher for strength, that doesn't tell the whole story. Strength can actually be a bad thing in some situations. Look at the front of the radiator ducts on an F1 car. They appear to be part of the structure from what I've seen. That is good for side impact intrusion, which is what they are going for in F1. But that is not really the case in the IRL. You need the sides of the car to crush when it hits the wall to absorb energy.

Again, I'm not saying that the F1 standards are not high or that an F1 car wouldn't be "good" in an oval crash. Just that they may not be the best.

[nigelred5]

Kubica's crash at Montreal was enough to prove to me that F1's crash standards are more than adequate.

All this arguement about whether the DP01 was or wasn't designed to be used on ovals was put to rest long ago, the tub WAS, and then the same tub which is the basis for the superleague car had ADDITIONAL side impact reinforcements added, which could have been added to the existing DP01 tubs. IIRC the side intrusion modifications were little more than additional layers of CF bonded to the tubs. The SL car was designed at the same time alongside the DP01. Anyone remember the pictures EVoMATT posted of the two sitting alongside one another? We didnt' know what the car with the airbox was at the time but speculation arose that it was an IRL spec car until we learned it was for a new european series. It's not like a CF tub has never had additions or modifications made to it. The dallara has had just that several times. They are called "UPDATES". That thing was a total swine when they first put it on a road course. The DP01 oval areo and suspension kits were never produced or tested because they weren't needed for the 07 season. We've SEEN the IRL oval kit for the DP-01, and I agree, it looked pretty sharp.


Anyway, has anyone heard more about the actual topic of the thread????

[shazbot]

Kubica's crash at Montreal was enough to prove to me that F1's crash standards are more than adequate.

All this arguement about whether the DP01 was or wasn't designed to be used on ovals was put to rest long ago, the tub WAS, and then the same tub which is the basis for the superleague car had ADDITIONAL side impact reinforcements added, which could have been added to the existing DP01 tubs. IIRC the side intrusion modifications were little more than additional layers of CF bonded to the tubs. The SL car was designed at the same time alongside the DP01. Anyone remember the pictures EVoMATT posted of the two sitting alongside one another? We didnt' know what the car with the airbox was at the time but speculation arose that it was an IRL spec car until we learned it was for a new european series. It's not like a CF tub has never had additions or modifications made to it. The dallara has had just that several times. They are called "UPDATES". That thing was a total swine when they first put it on a road course. The DP01 oval areo and suspension kits were never produced or tested because they weren't needed for the 07 season. We've SEEN the IRL oval kit for the DP-01, and I agree, it looked pretty sharp.


Anyway, has anyone heard more about the actual topic of the thread????

Have we seen the IRL oval Kit for the DP-01? Did I miss something or was it an artist impression that someone did?

The pics that EVoMatt posted where of a superleague show car. This was built well before the actual car was and looked nothing like the fnal result.

Not sure what's going on at Elan. The Haas audit has been done. I heard that Haas had loned EMT a few million $ to get the Champ Car design/build going in return for getting the spares deal. I guess when Champ Car went south EMT owed Haas? Just speculating.

[indycool]

I have never heard of an update kit for the DP-01 for ANY series.

[MDS]

I have never heard of an update kit for the DP-01 for ANY series.

No offense, but the world isn't limited to things you've heard of.

[indycool]

None taken. But I haven't.

[garyshell]

I have never heard of an update kit for the DP-01 for ANY series.


No offense, but the world isn't limited to things you've heard of.

Does that mean you konw of one then?

Gary

[shazbot]

No offense, but the world isn't limited to things you've heard of.

There was never any official EMT/Panoz update to IRL spec for the DP-01 apart from adapting the wind tunnel model as a 'look see' for interest more than anything else.