Turkish Grand Prix thread 2009

[AndyL]

I know we're all thrilled by the shenanigans of those two lovable rogues Max and Bernie, but let's not forget that F1 isn't just about politics. We have a race weekend starting in a little over 13 hours!

A strong weekend for Red Bull I reckon. I fancy an each way bet on Mark Webber - am I throwing my money away?

[Dave B]

Every time it's the same. We have a nice juicy political situation, new teams signing up while others threaten to quit, arguments over the new rules, talk of a global recession... then just when it gets interesting they interrupt it with a bloody race :mad:

[Sonic]

Dave = LEGEND! :p

As for the race should suit the Toyota's a bit more. How strange would it be if they could go from P20 to top 6 in one race weekend?

For the win. Jenson is the obvious choice but I have a gut feeling that this might not be his weekend.

So I'm gonna guess a podium with a Ferrari, Red Bull and Rubens in no particular order.

[ioan]

Every time it's the same. We have a nice juicy political situation, new teams signing up while others threaten to quit, arguments over the new rules, talk of a global recession... then just when it gets interesting they interrupt it with a bloody race :mad:

Good one! :up:

[ioan]

So, it looks like Williams are in the mood of more showboating during FP and than becoming anonymous faces in qualifying and race.

Also it's interesting that lap times are 2 seconds of the pace compared to last season's first FP times.

[555-04Q2]

Also it's interesting that lap times are 2 seconds of the pace compared to last season's first FP times.

Probably due to the reduced aero downforce needed through the fast corners in the second half of the track?

[Knock-on]

I had a nightmare last night that Rubens won and Jenson came 3rd!!

Thank God it was a dream :D

Who's going to win then?

I think Jenson will really have his work cut out but hope he makes a Podium. Rubens I have down for 5th.

The Bulls will be strong and Toyota will be right back after their schocker last outing and McLaren have an upgrade prior to the big one for Silverstone so it will be interesting in turn 8.

Then we have Ferrari who are right up at the sharp end now. If they don't cock up, I guess we will see a 3 way battle between Brawn, RBR and Brawn with the RB and Ferrari having a slight edge in terms of speed and Jenson in terms of confidence and racecraft.

[F1boat]

Oh, I hope that Jenson will win again, but this race might be difficult as it is expected that the Bulls will shine and Ferrari are always strong here. But I have a good gut feeling and I expect the Bulls to struggle with tires :evil:

[Valve Bounce]

I notice that bunsen is running well off the pace. Is there a need to conserve tyres during P1 and P2 for the race?

[wedge]

So, it looks like Williams are in the mood of more showboating during FP and than becoming anonymous faces in qualifying and race.

Also it's interesting that lap times are 2 seconds of the pace compared to last season's first FP times.

The harder tyres taking longer to get up to proper operating temperature.

The softs are a bit of a problem as well.

[Valve Bounce]

The harder tyres taking longer to get up to proper operating temperature.

The softs are a bit of a problem as well.

Are there any medium tyres?

Jest kiddin' :D

[ioan]

The harder tyres taking longer to get up to proper operating temperature.

The softs are a bit of a problem as well.

Looks like the softs are a total disaster for now, they start graining already in the first lap and if I remember rightly only ALonso managed to post a faster time on softs than on hards.

[maximilian]

This should be a bit of a bellwether race as to whether any team will be able to challenge for the title, or whether we can expect Brawn to keep the edge, as this is the first of the "aerodynamics" races to come... if Brawn still have the edge here, then I would say it's pretty much over (if it wasn't already anyways)... I am hoping Red Bull will kick some major ass this weekend.

[ioan]

For now it looks like it's a tire race mor than anything else.
The team who gets the softs to work properly wins the race.

[jens]

Considering circuit characteristics Toyota, BMW and Red Bull should be stronger than in Monaco, McLaren and Force India worse. Brawn, Renault, Williams and maybe also Ferrari about the same as they were. Don't guess much more than that at the moment. ;)

[Sleeper]

Kovaleinen P2 in FP2, quite a surprise as I didnt think the Mclaren would work well at this track.

[Sonic]

As long as the track holds together.....

Pikies at turn one Martin?? ;)

[maximilian]

Kovaleinen P2 in FP2, quite a surprise as I didnt think the Mclaren would work well at this track.
Heikki really needs to make something happen quick, or he'll be out of a seat faster than he can say "Rosberg"! All pending political crap aside, of course...

[race aficionado]

OK.

My turn for the good ol' copy and paste.

Some interesting facts for this weekend's race:
-----------
Only four other drivers in the history of formula one - Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Graham Hill and Michael Schumacher - have won four successive races at the same venue.
The dominance of the Brawn team and Jenson Button is likely to be a spanner in the works of Massa's hopes, but Ferrari's flagging form took a big step forward last weekend in Monaco.
And Massa, who won his first grand prix in Turkey in 2006, "loves" the Otodrom layout, also securing pole position in the last three years.
"It is a fantastic track for me, a very pleasurable track for me to drive, like the big turn eight, very challenging," he said.
Only one driver in F1's history has won five consecutive races at the same track: Ayrton Senna at Monaco (1989-1993).
Also in Turkey next weekend, drivers' title leader Button could if he wins a sixth race in seven attempts snatch Schumacher's record for the best ever start to a championship campaign.
In 2002, German Schumacher won five of the first six races with his Ferrari, but finished second to David Coulthard at the seventh.
_________

*no link, I lost it some where . . . .
:s mokin:

[airshifter]

I had a nightmare last night that Rubens won and Jenson came 3rd!!

Thank God it was a dream :D

Who's going to win then?

I think Jenson will really have his work cut out but hope he makes a Podium. Rubens I have down for 5th.

The Bulls will be strong and Toyota will be right back after their schocker last outing and McLaren have an upgrade prior to the big one for Silverstone so it will be interesting in turn 8.

Then we have Ferrari who are right up at the sharp end now. If they don't cock up, I guess we will see a 3 way battle between Brawn, RBR and Brawn with the RB and Ferrari having a slight edge in terms of speed and Jenson in terms of confidence and racecraft.

Actually, Rubens will be second and Jenson third. Kimi will be first, and in the confusion Brawn will forget to change Rubens to the slower extra stop strategy. :laugh:

[Tazio]

I had a nightmare last night that Rubens won and Jenson came 3rd!!

Thank God it was a dream :D

Who's going to win then?

I think Jenson will really have his work cut out but hope he makes a Podium. Rubens I have down for 5th.

The Bulls will be strong and Toyota will be right back after their schocker last outing and McLaren have an upgrade prior to the big one for Silverstone so it will be interesting in turn 8.

Then we have Ferrari who are right up at the sharp end now. If they don't cock up, I guess we will see a 3 way battle between Brawn, RBR and Brawn with the RB and Ferrari having a slight edge in terms of speed and Jenson in terms of confidence and racecraft.
Some dreams come true :p :

[Tazio]

Massa fastest in Sat. practice. He's looking like the man to beat!

[Tazio]

Saturday practice times:

Massa 1.27.983
Trulli 1.28.022
Glock 1.28.094
Nakajima 1.28.122
Kubica 1.28.320
Barrichello 1.28.332
Button 1.28.360
Rosberg 1.28.364
Raikkonen 1.28.415
Vettel 1.28.451
Piquet 1.28.503
Hamilton 1.28.563
Webber 1.28.678
Heidfeld 1.28.715
Kovalainen 1.28.738
Sutil 1.29.050
Bourdais 1.29.076
Buemi 1.29.167
Alonso 1.29.261
Fischella 1.29.483

[555-04Q2]

Massa owns Turkey.

[Knock-on]

OK.

My turn for the good ol' copy and paste.

Some interesting facts for this weekend's race:
-----------
Only four other drivers in the history of formula one - Juan Manuel Fangio, Jim Clark, Graham Hill and Michael Schumacher - have won four successive races at the same venue.
The dominance of the Brawn team and Jenson Button is likely to be a spanner in the works of Massa's hopes, but Ferrari's flagging form took a big step forward last weekend in Monaco.
And Massa, who won his first grand prix in Turkey in 2006, "loves" the Otodrom layout, also securing pole position in the last three years.
"It is a fantastic track for me, a very pleasurable track for me to drive, like the big turn eight, very challenging," he said.
Only one driver in F1's history has won five consecutive races at the same track: Ayrton Senna at Monaco (1989-1993).
Also in Turkey next weekend, drivers' title leader Button could if he wins a sixth race in seven attempts snatch Schumacher's record for the best ever start to a championship campaign.
In 2002, German Schumacher won five of the first six races with his Ferrari, but finished second to David Coulthard at the seventh.
_________

*no link, I lost it some where . . . .
:s mokin:

Where you been RA???

Hiding :D

[Tazio]

Massa owns Turkey.As you know since Brawn came along a lot of trends don't seem to mean squat this season!
Lets hope Massa can continue his streak in Turkey ;)

[Knock-on]

As you know since Brawn came along a lot of trends don't seem to mean squat this season!
Lets hope Massa can continue his streak in Turkey ;)

I think Ferrari have the edge with the best car at the moment and Massa is awesome around here so you can't bet against him.

[Hawkmoon]

Hamilton out in Q1. Out-qualified by Sutil! Golden Boy's looking a little tarnished at the moment.

[Knock-on]

Lewis just cannot get that car going. It loses the rear all the time and he's overdriving it like Fred last year in the first half of the season.

I hope the Silverstone upgrades sort the rear end out

[Sonic]

He is indeed overdriving but I think anyone would be at this point. The car ain't just slow its terrible! Was it turn 7 he lost the back end on two consecutive laps, and thats just a nothing corner.

[Sonic]

Good job by Sutil. Just 1 sec shy of the fastest time. Good effort.

Fuel loads gonna be crucial, with just 4 tenths covering the top 8.

[Sonic]

Brave hard tyre choice by Rubens. Seems to have worked too.

Amazing lap by Vettel to hold those softs together to the third sector.

[Valve Bounce]

Massa owns Turkey.

Well, somebody must have cooked it :p :

[Valve Bounce]

I think Ferrari have the edge with the best car at the moment and Massa is awesome around here so you can't bet against him.

Wanna bet?

[Valve Bounce]

I have to ask again: how have certain drivers saved their soft tyres during practice?
The fuel loads, when they come out, will be very interesting.

[veeten]

Kimi P6, Massa P7.

Middle of the front group should work for them.

The real question is the starting weights, and how it will play for both RBR & Brawn.

[jens]

Well, as expected Red Bull and Brawn are in front, although I suspect BGP's race-pace is still better and they'll win again. Both are closely followed by Ferrari and also Toyota, whose upgrades for this Grand Prix have finally had a positive effect.

Like in Spain, Kubica also in Q3 with his upgraded car. Rosberg and Alonso always somehow narrowly make it into Q3. :p : Sutil in Q2 - great job! :up: McLaren's friday practice pace meant nothing - still a lot of work to do with aerodynamics.

[christophulus]

Glad to see someone is a match for Brawn. I'm hoping Vettel will win tomorrow and get this title fight back on track! Toyota, Ferrari, Red Bull could all have a chance of winning tomorrow......but the pessimist in me says Brawn to win again

[ioan]

Ferrari overestimated their chances IMO.
They also had tire warming problems, but than why didn't they do what Rubens did, run several fast laps in order to get the tires working for a good shot at a good time?!

[pettersolberg29]

Good to see BMW back - if not quite in business but still back. Bobby is probably quite heavy, but has shown good pace throughout, while Nick was held up on his outlap so would have got a bit higher without that.

I hope for points for Nick tomorrow, although I am not going as far as hoping that my signature will change!

[gloomyDAY]

Vettel, please don't....forget it!

I don't want to jinx it. I'm absolutely overjoyed.

[Knock-on]

Ferrari overestimated their chances IMO.
They also had tire warming problems, but than why didn't they do what Rubens did, run several fast laps in order to get the tires working for a good shot at a good time?!

Because they seem to have lost all their luck to Brawn for some reason. Can't figure out why :D

Seriously, Ferrari seem to just go through the paces. It's almost like a computer says when to go out on what tyres and they just stick to the plan.

F1 strategy is a fluid process that needs to adapt to changing circumstances. Ferrari don't seem to have adapted to losing people like Brawn and it doesn't look like changing any time soon.

The Ferrari was very quick today but they didn't seem to maximise the opportunity again.

[jens]

1. Sebastian Vettel RBR Renault 649.5
2. Jenson Button Brawn Mercedes 655.5
3. Rubens Barrichello Brawn Mercedes 652.5
4. Mark Webber RBR Renault 656.0
5. Jarno Trulli Toyota 652.0
6. Kimi Raikkonen Ferrari 658.0
7. Felipe Massa Ferrari 654.0
8. Fernando Alonso Renault 644.5
9. Nico Rosberg Williams Toyota 660.0
10. Robert Kubica BMW Sauber 664.0
11. Nick Heidfeld BMW Sauber 681.5*
12. Kazuki Nakajima Williams Toyota 680.4*
13. Timo Glock Toyota 689.0*
14. Heikki Kovalainen McLaren Mercedes 665.0*
15. Adrian Sutil Force India Mercedes 668.5*
16. Lewis Hamilton McLaren Mercedes 696.5*
17. Nelson Piquet Renault 689.6*
18. Sebastien Buemi STR Ferrari 686.5*
19. Giancarlo Fisichella Force India Mercedes 688.5*
20. Sebastien Bourdais STR Ferrari 701.0*

I suspect Trulli will pit earlier than anyone else anyway. :s Toyota engine is thurstier than anyone else's and due to engine freeze there is little they can do about it. So far this year Toyotas have always pitted earlier than the weights suggest.

[ioan]

I suspect Trulli will pit earlier than anyone else anyway. :s Toyota engine is thurstier than anyone else's and due to engine freeze there is little they can do about it. So far this year Toyotas have always pitted earlier than the weights suggest.

That's good news than, maybe Ferrari have a chance to finish 5th and 6th after all. :(

[Knock-on]

Surprised that Kimi went so heavy. He could probably got 3rd but is very well placed for a podium in my opinion. Pretty poor from Massa considering this circuit suits him and a great performance from Rubens yet again.

[VkmSpouge]

Well done to Sebastian Vettel for getting pole position, excellent last gasp effort by him to stop a Brawn front row lock out. However with both Brawns being heavier than Vettel means the Red Bull will have to work hard to shake them off and build up an advantage over them.

Kimi Raikkonen did well to out pace his team mate despite being on more fuel.

[christophulus]

I was really expecting the Ferraris to be heavier than that. And poor showing from Alonso.

Odds on for Button to get another win tomorrow then?

[ioan]

Well done to Sebastian Vettel for getting pole position, excellent last gasp effort by him to stop a Brawn front row lock out. However with both Brawns being heavier than Vettel means the Red Bull will have to work hard to shake them off and build up an advantage over them.

Kimi Raikkonen did well to out pace his team mate despite being on more fuel.

Those 4 kgs Kimi is carrying account to approx. 0.12 seconds only, so to be honest both Ferrari were very very poor in todays Q3, and I put the blame square on the engineers shoulders for totally misjudging the conditions.

[DexDexter]

He is indeed overdriving but I think anyone would be at this point. The car ain't just slow its terrible! Was it turn 7 he lost the back end on two consecutive laps, and thats just a nothing corner.

IMO a very bad performance from Hamilton, Heikki beat him fair and square, and Heikki is a sort of a Piquet these days, at least on this forum.

[DexDexter]

He is indeed overdriving but I think anyone would be at this point. The car ain't just slow its terrible! Was it turn 7 he lost the back end on two consecutive laps, and thats just a nothing corner.

IMO a very bad performance from Hamilton, Heikki beat him fair and square, and Heikki is a sort of "a Piquet" these days, at least on this forum.

[Sonic]

IMO a very bad performance from Hamilton, Heikki beat him fair and square, and Heikki is a sort of a Piquet these days, at least on this forum.

Hey don't get me wrong I agree with you, Hamilton drove poorly today no doubt about it but we all know how good he is so it is simply the car being such a bag of bolts leaving him down and out. As for being out qualified by his team mate - it happened here last year so no surprise.

[ioan]

Hamilton drove poorly today no doubt about it but we all know how good he is...

Yeah, we saw it today. :laugh:

[jas123f1]

I suspect Trulli will pit earlier than anyone else anyway. :s Toyota engine is thurstier than anyone else's and due to engine freeze there is little they can do about it. So far this year Toyotas have always pitted earlier than the weights suggest.

1. Sebastian Vettel............. /15 exp. pit lap
2. Jenson Button..................... /17
3. Rubens Barrichello............. /16
4. Mark Webber ..................... /17
5. Jarno Trulli ...................../16
6. Kimi Räikkönen...................... /18
7. Felipe Massa .................. /16
8. Fernando Alonso......... /13
9. Nico Rosberg ....................... /19
10. Robert Kubica........................ /20
11. Nick Heidfeld..................................... /27
12. Kazuki Nakajima.............................. /26
13. Timo Glock............................................. . /30
14. Heikki Kovalainen...................... /21
15. Adrian Sutil................................ /22
16. Lewis Hamilton.......................................... ........ /32
17. Nelson Piquet............................................ /30
18. Sebastien Buemi.................................... /29
19. Giancarlo Fisichella................................. /29
20. Sebastien Bourdais.......................................... ............ /34

Source Williams preview :
Based 2,49 kg fuel per 5 km - (The Turkey lap = 5.338 km)..

[Tazio]

Heikki is a sort of a Piquet these days, at least on this forum.Some people on this forum may view him as a type of Piquet on this forum,
However He has out qualified lewis a couple three times or so over the last two seasons
I believe Fred has out qualified NP 23 or 24 times in a row
and has never been out-qualified by by NP since he joined the team
nuff said, Have a nice day :)

[ioan]

1. Sebastian Vettel............. /15 exp. pit lap
2. Jenson Button..................... /17
3. Rubens Barrichello............. /16
4. Mark Webber ..................... /17
5. Jarno Trulli ...................../16
6. Kimi Räikkönen...................... /18
7. Felipe Massa .................. /16
8. Fernando Alonso......... /13
9. Nico Rosberg ....................... /19
10. Robert Kubica........................ /20
11. Nick Heidfeld..................................... /27
12. Kazuki Nakajima.............................. /26
13. Timo Glock............................................. . /30
14. Heikki Kovalainen...................... /21
15. Adrian Sutil................................ /22
16. Lewis Hamilton.......................................... ........ /32
17. Nelson Piquet............................................ /30
18. Sebastien Buemi.................................... /29
19. Giancarlo Fisichella................................. /29
20. Sebastien Bourdais.......................................... ............ /34

Source Williams preview :
Based 2,49 kg fuel per 5 km - (The Turkey lap = 5.338 km)..

These numbers are not accurate.
A lap in Istanbul needs 2.7 kgs of fuel.

Kimi has got 58 kgs of fuel on board, that means 21.x laps - 1 lap for getting on the grid and 1 warm up lap = 19 laps (not accounting for the fact that te instalation and warm up lap would probably require around or less than 2 kgs of fuel / lap.

Felipe has 54 kgs fuel = 20 laps - 1 instalation lap - 1 warm up lap = 18 laps.

[ioan]

Some people on this forum may view him as a type of Piquet on this forum,
However He has out qualified lewis a couple three times or so over the last two seasons
I believe Fred has out qualified NP 23 or 24 times in a row
and has never been out-qualified by by NP since he joined the team
nuff said, Have a nice day :)

I'm pretty sure that NP outqualified and outraced Alonso already a couple of times.

[Tazio]

I'm pretty sure that NP outqualified and outraced Alonso already a couple of times.
Can someone verify this? I thought I heard announcers say a say couple races ago that
Fred out-qualified NP 22 times in a row since NP joined the team :confused:

[jas123f1]

These numbers are not accurate.
A lap in Istanbul needs 2.7 kgs of fuel.

Kimi has got 58 kgs of fuel on board, that means 21.x laps - 1 lap for getting on the grid and 1 warm up lap = 19 laps (not accounting for the fact that te instalation and warm up lap would probably require around or less than 2 kgs of fuel / lap.

Felipe has 54 kgs fuel = 20 laps - 1 instalation lap - 1 warm up lap = 18 laps.

Ok - if you know it better - however it's in any case approximately numbers..

[ioan]

There are rumours about the FOTA teams refusing to race today.

[Dave B]

I'm pretty sure that NP outqualified and outraced Alonso already a couple of times.

Never once outqualified Fernando, and if he's out-raced him I'm certain it's been down to circumstance and not skill.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm pretty sure that NP outqualified Alonso already a couple of times.

Not at all.

[Dave B]

There are rumours about the FOTA teams refusing to race today.
Are there? First I've heard. Do you have a source?

[markabilly]

Well it ain't on speed tv
Darn it

Is this not the track that Bernie owns and the makes deals to make much money?
How appripriate

Anyone have a link to the race on itrnent?

[ioan]

Rubens you journeyman learn to race better and come back than.

[markabilly]

Rubens you journeyman learn to race better and come back than.
Not his fault---Brawn has a special program for his starts, it is called "IAMSECONDFIDDLEALWAYS"---

sometimes rubens forgets to use it at the start, but not to worry you brit fans, the back up software is called "pit stop strategy" and another back up is called "missing gear"

[ioan]

Who dares say that Piquet isn't good? Overtaking Hamilton on the outside and not afraid to bang wheels!
For sure he's better than a certain Brazilian journeyman called Rubens.

[ioan]

Not his fault---Brawn has a special program for his starts, it is called "IAMSECONDFIDDLEALWAYS"---

sometimes rubens forgets to use it at the start, but not to worry you brit fans, the back up software is called "pit stop strategy" and another back up is called "missing gear"

No matter what his position in the team is he's race craft is worse than that of Piquet.

[markabilly]

10 laps to go, thanks to his screw up on lap 1, Button takes the lead and vettel ends up third---BEHIND webber.

What was all this talk re WDC vettel? Looks like he has these occaisional brilliant race here and there and then .....................

[markabilly]

I wonder if team orders will have vettel pass webber or will it be a real battle, in which case, Vettel will not be passing markie

[markabilly]

and the order is "webber is faster" which is code for do not pass him.............

[gm99]

I wonder if team orders will have vettel pass webber or will it be a real battle, in which case, Vettel will not be passing markie

Neither - team orders come into play, but telling Vettel to hold station - "Webber is faster", what a load of BS. Why then is Vettel all over the rear of Webber in spite of making an extra pitstop?

[ShiftingGears]

Neither - team orders come into play, but telling Vettel to hold station - "Webber is faster", what a load of BS. Why then is Vettel all over the rear of Webber in spite of making an extra pitstop?

Webber wanted to reign in Vettel's points advantage and Vettel wanted to try to make amends for his complete screw-up at the start of the race, so that could've ended badly.

[markabilly]

Neither - team orders come into play, but telling Vettel to hold station - "Webber is faster", what a load of BS. Why then is Vettel all over the rear of Webber in spite of making an extra pitstop?
Like I said, it was code but very obvious BS and hence just their way of saying "do not pass him, if you want your paycheck" :mad:

[markabilly]

The place I am watching, just had a little bit of radio traffic from pits to vettel, explaining how Vettel got third to vettell although it looks like vettel is ignoring them ---guess they want that repeated for interveiws---JUSt trying to get the story right (guess they can not wait to do it in person??) before he runs off at mouth

NO "too late" Ryan-Hamster conversations???

[christophulus]

Oh well. Good race but this title fight is over. Bit more overtaking than usual but the regs for that need looking at again for next year. Good points for Rosberg finally and Toyota back on form too.

[Dave B]

Get in there!

6 out of 7, the boy's looking unstoppable! :D

[ioan]

and the order is "webber is faster" which is code for do not pass him.............

And that when Vettel was 0.8 seconds faster in that last lap!
Man they take us for idiots.

[AndyL]

Interesting comment from Lewis in a post-race interview - he says he started on 83kg of fuel. With a start weight of 696.5kg that gives a dry weight of 613.5kg - 8.5kg overweight. Some of that would have been marbles picked up at the end of qualifying but even so it looks like McLaren are a bit heavy.

[ioan]

Webber wanted to reign in Vettel's points advantage and Vettel wanted to try to make amends for his complete screw-up at the start of the race, so that could've ended badly.

And?!
You guys were yelling all day long about how unfair is Ferrari to use team orders but when they are used to help your favorite driver it's OK?!

Hypocrisy at it's finest! :D

[DexDexter]

Oh well. Good race but this title fight is over. Bit more overtaking than usual but the regs for that need looking at again for next year. Good points for Rosberg finally and Toyota back on form too.

This is like 2004 borefest reincarnated, it's really difficult for anyone to be interested in a sport where one guy wins every time. I don't know, perhaps I'll skip a few races...

[ShiftingGears]

And?!
You guys were yelling all day long about how unfair is Ferrari to use team orders but when they are used to help your favorite driver it's OK?!

Hypocrisy at it's finest! :D

I'm sorry, you're going to have to be more specific than "you guys".

[ioan]

BTW congrats to Button and Brawn. :up:

Ferrari? :down: :down: :down:

[ioan]

I'm sorry, you're going to have to be more specific than "you guys".

YOU.

[BDunnell]

At least the racing down the field has been better than in recent seasons where one driver has dominated. But I really want someone, Vettel preferably, to take the fight to Button.

[ioan]

But I really want someone, Vettel preferably, to take the fight to Button.

It might happen the day RedBull get their strategy right for once.
The 3 stopper was a complete POS in today's conditions. One must be in front in order to stand a chance against a car with similar or slightly better race pace.

[ShiftingGears]

YOU.

I take it you have some proof for that accusation.

I'm waiting.

[F1boat]

I am very happy that my pickems proved to be wrong. Jenson was fantastic today, didn't make any mistakes and stayed cool when Vettel was behind him. A brilliant win on track which I didn't think that Brawn will dominate. I am extremely happy! Go Jenson!

[ioan]

I take it you have some proof for that accusation.

I'm waiting.

I hop you don't think I'm going to search back 3 years of forum to prove something I know for sure. :laugh:

[mstillhere]

At least the racing down the field has been better than in recent seasons where one driver has dominated. But I really want someone, Vettel preferably, to take the fight to Button.

Too late. It's all over. All the teams could stop race right now. Talking about saving money. It would be the right thing to do. You give Button his deserved price plus all the advanteges for the environement.

What happened to the promised passing on the track??? It's time for a REAL change in F1. Not decided in someone's stupid office but by the teams themselves (FOTA).

The boredom is almost palpable.

And next year it does not look any better. The only hope is to see the small teams cars getting in the way of the faster cars and crashing. That would be the only kind off entainment I am predicting we will see.

Au revoir F1. Glad I was around when F1 was what it was meant to be and could see the real staff.

[DexDexter]

Au revoir F1. Glad I was around when F1 was what it was meant to be and could see the real staff.

And when was that? What was F1 meant to be, who defines it? Typical "old days were better" stuff which holds no truth at all.

[ioan]

And when was that?

Take a look back, not further than the 90's!

[ShiftingGears]

I hop you don't think I'm going to search back 3 years of forum to prove something I know for sure. :laugh:

In other words, you don't have anything.

For your information, I do not have problems with team orders like we saw today, with any team.

[markabilly]

so back to turkey---pretty boring race overall.....

[ioan]

so back to turkey---pretty boring race overall.....

Luckily Rubens was there to take a good lesson from Piquet on how to overtake on the outside and inside of a competitor's car! :D

[N. Jones]

My word - last year Massa & Hamilton finished 1-2 in points, but this year they have 11 & 9 respectively. Wow, what a change from last year!

[Ent]

Well done, Jenson. He'd have to have a major run of DNFs to lose it from here. For RBR, that makes 5/7 races Webber has finished in front of Vettel (according to the TV). I was surprised to hear this. IMO Vettel is faster, but he's certainly made a few mistakes.

[ioan]

Well done, Jenson. He'd have to have a major run of DNFs to lose it from here. For RBR, that makes 5/7 races Webber has finished in front of Vettel (according to the TV). I was surprised to hear this. IMO Vettel is faster, but he's certainly made a few mistakes.

Vettel is trying hard while Webber is cruising around in the 2nd fastest car on the grid.

[ShiftingGears]

Vettel is trying hard while Webber is cruising around in the 2nd fastest car on the grid.

Seriously, you should just stop talking crap.

[Ent]

Vettel is trying hard while Webber is cruising around in the 2nd fastest car on the grid.

So what you're saying is cruising is faster than trying? Probably explains Jenson's success! :)

[DanicaFan]

Jensen Button won again..


I'll just say...."yawn"... boring.

[Dave B]

I guess you can only dream of Danica ever having such a winning streak :p

[VkmSpouge]

Well done to Jenson Button on another fine race victory, he had the Red Bulls beaten quite convincingly. He's making this almost boring.

Sebastian Vettel's race strategy was poor and cost him second place to Mark Webber, the Australian will have been happy to have beaten him.

Rubens Barrichello's race went down hill right after the lights went off. He can blame the bad start on the clutch problem but making contact twice, spinning and losing his front wing end plate was all his fault. He gets Brawn's first ever retirement.

[AndyL]

Sebastian Vettel's race strategy was poor and cost him second place to Mark Webber, the Australian will have been happy to have beaten him.

Yes, very true I think. No matter what Red Bull did with strategy today they weren't going to beat Jenson, but Vettel could have beaten Webber. It was another example of Red Bull just sticking to their plan and failing to respond to events in the race. Not the first time they've done that.

I would have still been happy with Webber finishing 3rd, because my each way bet on him that I mentioned in the first post of this thread was on 3 places :)

[mstillhere]

And when was that? What was F1 meant to be, who defines it? Typical "old days were better" stuff which holds no truth at all.

It looks like you are new F1 fan. I feel bad for you. The reason why F1 was created has been mentioned several toimes on this forum although it looks like you keep in missing it. I'll tell you what it's not meant to be: CHEAP!!! It was never meant to be cheap and under developped. But I guess that's exactley how..........you like it :(

[DexDexter]

It looks like you are new F1 fan. I feel bad for you. The reason why F1 was created has been mentioned several toimes on this forum although it looks like you keep in missing it. I'll tell you what it's not meant to be: CHEAP!!! It was never meant to be cheap and under developped. But I guess that's exactley how..........you like it :(

Yep, I am a new F1 fan, I saw my first race on TV in 1982 :) . Everyone is of course entitled to their opinion.

[mstillhere]

Did you guys noticed that very few people went to see the race in Turkey? I read somewhere that BE had some Turkish employees put a big piece of green tarp over some empty rows of seats so that from above it would look like if it were grass.

It looks like that if Ferrari and McLaren are not on top form the public shows not interest in F1. Poor Bernie and Mosley. I just see them keeping in digging their own hole deeper and deeper.

[N. Jones]

I read somewhere that organizers were expecting 40,000 people to the race which can hold 130,000.
How long before the Turkish government says 'enough' and drops the race?

[airshifter]

Excellent drive by Button. And for that matter also by the rest of the top 8. Vettel tried the strategy change and ended up losing out to Webber. It would have been interesting to see if he could have taken it to Webber on track if not for the obvious team orders.

At least it was good for a laugh. Webber is faster! :laugh:

Amazing that with 3 WDC drivers in the race the best finish by one of those 3 was 9th place.

[D28]

In his news article above, J.K.Thomson mentions that only Clark and Schumacher have made such storming starts to the F1 season (as J Button, 6 wins out of 7). In 1952 A Ascari won every GP entered, 6 out of 7 which was a string of 6 victories. I hope this is simply a mistake, and does not imply that Ascari's string is devalued because the Championship races were run to F2 regulations in 52-53. This subject was discussed recently in this forum, but more in the context of the record for consecutive WC wins over 2 seasons, and the problem posed by the Indy 500 being included. I feel that Ascari should be mentioned in the above comparison.

[ozrevhead]

:D
Yes, very true I think. No matter what Red Bull did with strategy today they weren't going to beat Jenson, but Vettel could have beaten Webber. It was another example of Red Bull just sticking to their plan and failing to respond to events in the race. Not the first time they've done that.

I would have still been happy with Webber finishing 3rd, because my each way bet on him that I mentioned in the first post of this thread was on 3 places :)
Could....but didnt...as they say if my anty had balls she'd be my uncle

Part of being ther better driver is not making stupid mistakes....apart from maybe leaving it late in Bahrain (even thats debatable) Can you name me one mistake Marks made.....*starts thinking music*

Favorite part of the race - hearing the radio telling Seb 'Save the Car, Save the car. Mark is faster." :D

So much for Vettel ending Marks career then....

[markabilly]

I guess you can only dream of Danica ever having such a winning streak :p
I only dream of Danica doing something similar to her "naked in the shower go daddy commercial", with her being my naked slave cleaning every inch of my body.....

now that is a winning streak with great stroke :s mokin: :s mokin:

[markabilly]

I read somewhere that organizers were expecting 40,000 people to the race which can hold 130,000.
How long before the Turkish government says 'enough' and drops the race?
Is this not the track owned by bernie?????
Does that not answer the question?

[Roamy]

This track looks very good so I hope they keep it. Button was awesome today and he is really driving that car. Good for him - a couple more wins and the championship will be history. Well driven and well deserved.

[ioan]

Vettel tried the strategy change and ended up losing out to Webber.

There was no strategy change there, it was his strategy and the team failed to read the situation and change him to a 2 stops one.

[Valve Bounce]

There was no strategy change there, it was his strategy and the team failed to read the situation and change him to a 2 stops one.

I think that Vettel's strategy was changed after the first stint when they brought him on for a much lighter fuel load for the second stint. He was much faster than bunsen initially in his second stint, but never really looked like passing bunsen. No good having a faster car if you cannot pass the guy in front.

I have to stress, once again, that Ross Brawn, (or Ross Brown as the Spaniards call him) is the master of strategy. He has organised bunsen to win most of his races this year.

[AndyL]

:D
Could....but didnt...as they say if my anty had balls she'd be my uncle


Just to clarify, my comment was not about Vettel's (or Webber's) performance at all, but about Vettel's engineers making a mistake with strategy by not switching him to a two-stopper.

However having thought about it again (in the bath, of course) I'm going to take it all back :s pinhead: I don't think Red Bull did make a tactical mistake at all but made a decent call in an uncertain situation. At the time they had to make the call (before Vettel's first stop) the need to change the 3-stop strategy was far from obvious, and a two-stopper might have proved just as risky.
You could argue that as soon as Vettel lost track position to Button on the first lap they should have made the decision to switch, since track position is all-important in a 3-stop strategy. But actually Vettel was not being held up, in fact Button was driving away from him. And after Vettel stopped, he was still not held up, and even after Button stopped Vettel still wasn't held up. It was only after several more laps that Button was sufficiently slow for Vettel to catch him and then get held up. I don't think it would have been easy for Red Bull to predict that situation before Vettel's first stop, given Button's pace at the start of the race. In fact Button stated afterwards that he had been conserving his tyres at that stage of the race; Red Bull wouldn't have known for sure whether he would do that or how much it would affect his pace.
The other argument for switching to the two-stopper would be to cover Webber - if Vettel switched to the same strategy as his team-mate whilst running ahead of him, then presumably Vettel would go on to finish the race ahead. But Vettel was only, what, 5 or 6 seconds ahead of Webber when he stopped? And Webber was running 2 or 3 (?) laps longer. With Vettel heavily fuelled for a long middle stint it would have been eminently possible for Webber to overhaul Vettel in that window. So at the point they had to make the call, I can see why Red Bull might have felt keeping Vettel on his 3-stop strategy was the safer choice.

[AndyL]

I think that Vettel's strategy was changed after the first stint when they brought him on for a much lighter fuel load for the second stint.

On the BBC coverage they interviewed Vettel after the race and he made some comment about being surprised the team had not switched him to a two stop strategy, which I took to mean that they had originally planned a 3-stopper.

[ioan]

I think that Vettel's strategy was changed after the first stint when they brought him on for a much lighter fuel load for the second stint. He was much faster than bunsen initially in his second stint, but never really looked like passing bunsen. No good having a faster car if you cannot pass the guy in front.

I think you have to read the comments the driver made and see that he was saying that the team kept him on the initial 3 stops strategy instead of doing the right thing and put him on a 2 stop strategy when it was obvious that a win wasn't possible anymore.

[Valve Bounce]

Well, I am surprised, because Vettel's fuel load was only marginally different from Mark Webbers in that first stint. Had he been brought in and fueled up like Mark (maybe with 1 extra lap's fuel, he would have easily come in second.

Like Harry Callahan says: "Man's gotta know his limitations"

The point I want to make here is that Ross Brawn made an impeccable strategy - Vettel's engineer didn't.

I am sure many here would agree that Ross Brawn also helped make SchM's life a helluva lot easier. That's all!!

[ioan]

Well, I am surprised, because Vettel's fuel load was only marginally different from Mark Webbers in that first stint. Had he been brought in and fueled up like Mark (maybe with 1 extra lap's fuel, he would have easily come in second.

Like Harry Callahan says: "Man's gotta know his limitations"

The point I want to make here is that Ross Brawn made an impeccable strategy - Vettel's engineer didn't.

I am sure many here would agree that Ross Brawn also helped make SchM's life a helluva lot easier. That's all!!

That's a generally know reality, Ross Brawn has no equal in the pitlane as long as the car is up to scratch too.

Only Pat Symonds managed to outsmart him a couple of times during the last decades.

[Triumph]

Yet another perfect Result. Well done Jenson!

Long may it continue.

[race aficionado]

OK.
Also in Turkey next weekend, drivers' title leader Button could if he wins a sixth race in seven attempts snatch Schumacher's record for the best ever start to a championship campaign.
In 2002, German Schumacher won five of the first six races with his Ferrari, but finished second to David Coulthard at the seventh.
_________

*no link, I lost it some where . . . .
:s mokin:

JB beating MS's amazing record.

Who would have thunk it!
:s mokin:

[Ent]

Well, I am surprised, because Vettel's fuel load was only marginally different from Mark Webbers in that first stint. Had he been brought in and fueled up like Mark (maybe with 1 extra lap's fuel, he would have easily come in second.

When Vettel came out of the pits for the last time, he was 10 seconds behind Webber. Horner said after that race that that was about how much time Vettel lost behind Jenson, so the team believe that, fuel adjusted, both drivers were on about the same pace for the race.

I actually think Red Bull did the right thing leaving Vettel on his 3-stopper. He was slower than Button while having lighter fuel and so was never going to catch him on the same strategy, but if he'd been able to overtake Button when he first caught up, he'd have at least the possibility of going for the win. It didn't turn out that way, but the alternative would have been just to settle for 2nd and give up on lap 15! It was at least worth a shot, and the worst result for the team would still have been a 2-3.

[ioan]

I actually think Red Bull did the right thing leaving Vettel on his 3-stopper. He was slower than Button while having lighter fuel

yeah, that's why he got into Jenson gearbox after a couple of laps! :rolleyes:

[airshifter]

There was no strategy change there, it was his strategy and the team failed to read the situation and change him to a 2 stops one.

I agree, and Vettel and the team probably do as well. BUT, he couldn't pass on track and they took the gamble that they would get more favorable track position while Jenson hit traffic.

As it turned out, he lost position to Webber, but maybe due to the teams orders. Either way he was stuck behind Jenson with little to lose in trying.

[D28]

OK.

My turn for the good ol' copy and paste.

Some interesting facts for this weekend's race:
-----------

Also in Turkey next weekend, drivers' title leader Button could if he wins a sixth race in seven attempts snatch Schumacher's record for the best ever start to a championship campaign.
In 2002, German Schumacher won five of the first six races with his Ferrari, but finished second to David Coulthard at the seventh.
_________

*no link, I lost it some where . . . .
:s mokin:

Would the best ever start not be 1952 and Alberto Ascari? He won 6 out of 7 entered, 6 in a row. This record was equaled by Button in Turkey. All three have impressive records, but Ascari was the first.

[veeten]

yeah, that's why he got into Jenson gearbox after a couple of laps! :rolleyes:

unfortunately, he never got past him, and that's the important part.

The best example of this was during those laps where Button was going through the turns and Vettel was behind him. Button's were more composed and clean, staying within the line. Vettel's were only slightly wider, trying to pull more speed on the exit of the curve.

And, still, he couldn't get past Button.

Looks more and more that the Brawn GP is more efficient than most of the cars on the grid, as it is returning better fuel economy during the race, even when configuring strategy.

[mstillhere]

This track looks very good so I hope they keep it.

I too like the track, but I really would like to know why 140,000 Turkish people would go to a F1 race en masse. I am guessing there are a few interested in racing but, in all due respect, I really don't know of any Turkish commercial or technological interests represented by F1. And obviously, the same goes with China, India (if it were to happen) etc.

[ioan]

unfortunately, he never got past him, and that's the important part.

That's true, but claiming that he was slower was utter rubbish.

[Ari]

And that when Vettel was 0.8 seconds faster in that last lap!
Man they take us for idiots.

Meanwhile BOTH drivers were told to hold station as they had new engines and their revs had been turned down. Vettel was grinding his engine, Webber wasn't.

[jens]

The talks, which at times exist, like RBR is favouring Vettel, are useless. He has lost to Webber already twice this year largely due to strategy (ESP, TUR). What about the conspiracy theories other way around? :p :

Trulli - excellent! :up: His best ever Istanbul result and was on-form throughout weekend. Glock's poor qualifying pace tends to let him down from time-to-time. From that respect he starts reminding Ralf...

And Kubica has finally managed to get to the finish as well without losing front wing. :D McLaren & Renault - nah...


Who dares say that Piquet isn't good? Overtaking Hamilton on the outside and not afraid to bang wheels!
For sure he's better than a certain Brazilian journeyman called Rubens.

Driver is as good as his last race. :)

[ioan]

Vettel was grinding his engine, Webber wasn't.

That's what you like to believe. Any chance you get us some proof?

[Ent]

yeah, that's why he got into Jenson gearbox after a couple of laps! :rolleyes:

Vettel pitted two or three laps earlier than Button in the first stint, yet Button was pulling away from the Red Bull. That, in my books, shows that Button was faster than Vettel despite Vettel being lighter. If this is too difficult for you to understand, I can use single syllable words for you... ;)

As the decision was made at that first stop, if Vettel was to mirror Button's strategy, then Red Bull would be simply settling for second. They decided to fuel him very light, light enough to overcome Button's speed advantage and chance the overtake and the possibility of building a lead and making up a pitstop advantage. Didn't work because Vettel couldn't get past him, but it was worth a try.

[ioan]

Vettel pitted two or three laps earlier than Button in the first stint, yet Button was pulling away from the Red Bull. That, in my books, shows that Button was faster than Vettel despite Vettel being lighter. If this is too difficult for you to understand, I can use single syllable words for you... ;)

he was faster in the 2nd stint so I think that this calls BS on your claims.

[markabilly]

Well, I am surprised, because Vettel's fuel load was only marginally different from Mark Webbers in that first stint. Had he been brought in and fueled up like Mark (maybe with 1 extra lap's fuel, he would have easily come in second.

Like Harry Callahan says: "Man's gotta know his limitations"

The point I want to make here is that Ross Brawn made an impeccable strategy - Vettel's engineer didn't.

I am sure many here would agree that Ross Brawn also helped make SchM's life a helluva lot easier. That's all!!

They should have given him an extra lap as well as an extra ball.......as I said, if he had stayed in front on lap one, or had sufficient gonads to pass someone, I think he would have won.
:mad:
But after he blew it, the others are right, perhaps a change in fuel strategy would have been the right thing to do.... :confused:

[ozrevhead]

They should have given him an extra lap as well as an extra ball.......as I said, if he had stayed in front on lap one, or had sufficient gonads to pass someone, I think he would have won.
:mad:
But after he blew it, the others are right, perhaps a change in fuel strategy would have been the right thing to do.... :confused:
like a post said a man has to know his limitations....mayby vettel needs a lighter car to do anything with it

Somthing only RB and Vettel would know

[ioan]

They should have given him an extra lap as well as an extra ball.......as I said, if he had stayed in front on lap one, or had sufficient gonads to pass someone, I think he would have won.

And I think you should take a couple of maths lessons, look at the lap times and see for yourself that you are drinking to much koolaid.

[veeten]

And I think you should take a couple of maths lessons, look at the lap times and see for yourself that you are drinking to much koolaid.
that's funny... Fastest lap for the race was Button at 1' 27.579 @ 219.422 km/h.

Sounds like you need to lay off the kool-aid a bit, ioan. ;)

[veeten]

and for comparison...

Vettel at 1'27.622 @ 219.314 km/h, a difference of 0.043

[ioan]

that's funny... Fastest lap for the race was Button at 1' 27.579 @ 219.422 km/h.

Sounds like you need to lay off the kool-aid a bit, ioan. ;)

He was talking about Vettel not Button, slow down when you read.



and for comparison...

Vettel at 1'27.622 @ 219.314 km/h, a difference of 0.043

Now please show us all the lap times not only the fastest ones. Cherry picking data that almost suits your POV is not proof of anything.

Even if this would have been the case in each and every lap, which isn't realistic it means that VEttel would have been approx. 2.6 seconds behind Button based on pace + 15 seconds or so for the supplementary pit stop = 17.5 seconds!

Any of you and markabilly can tell me how can you win when you don't have the pace and have to stop one more time?! :rolleyes:

You guys just love to argue for the sake of arguing, but that's where it ends.

[Dave B]

Any of you and markabilly can tell me how can you win when you don't have the pace and have to stop one more time?! :rolleyes:

When you get right up behind the Brawn but fail to overtake it, then spend the next few laps sitting in dirty air watching your advantage slip away.

[ioan]

When you get right up behind the Brawn but fail to overtake it, then spend the next few laps sitting in dirty air watching your advantage slip away.

Even if he managed to pass Button straight away he only had 6 laps to make up the time needed for his extra pit stop, 15 seconds or more!

I think that we can all agree that it is impossible to go 2.5 seconds per lap faster.

[veeten]

He was talking about Vettel not Button, slow down when you read.

No kidding, so was I...


Now please show us all the lap times not only the fastest ones. Cherry picking data that almost suits your POV is not proof of anything.
Not a problem.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/tur09_race_history.pdf
Best area, lap 19-28, where Vettel was improving on both lap times and distance to Button. But, alas, he couldn't get past him and fell away after the pit stop.

Kind hard to accept for you, I know, but there it is.


Even if this would have been the case in each and every lap, which isn't realistic it means that VEttel would have been approx. 2.6 seconds behind Button based on pace + 15 seconds or so for the supplementary pit stop = 17.5 seconds!

Any of you and markabilly can tell me how can you win when you don't have the pace and have to stop one more time?! :rolleyes:

which was what we were stating all along. You're the one trying (and very poorly, I might add... :p : ) to make exceptions for Vettel.


You guys just love to argue for the sake of arguing, but that's where it ends.

Pot... Kettle... Black. And, thus ends today's lesson, children. ;) :D

[ioan]

No kidding, so was I...


Not a problem.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/f1_media/Documents/tur09_race_history.pdf
Best area, lap 19-28, where Vettel was improving on both lap times and distance to Button. But, alas, he couldn't get past him and fell away after the pit stop.

Kind hard to accept for you, I know, but there it is.



which was what we were stating all along. You're the one trying (and very poorly, I might add... :p : ) to make exceptions for Vettel.



Pot... Kettle... Black. And, thus ends today's lesson, children. ;) :D

:rolleyes:

First you contradict me and now you are contradicting yourself.
There's no head or tail to this. I'll give up, it's a loss of time.

[Valve Bounce]

Let's not be hasty here. Vettel did make a mistake in lap 1, but even the best drivers make mistakes in races. I remember Senna running into the armco, bunsen driving into a wall, DC ...........(never mind), but I guess you get the picture. Once Vettel caught up with bunsen, he simply did not have the pace nor the tyres, nor the opportunity to pass him. Hardly his fault.

Young Vettel is a fine driver, and I expect him to win the WDC someday. My criticism on this thread is directed towards his race engineer who should have had more sense than to use that short second stint, which cost Vettel 4 points vis a vis Mark Webber.

[ioan]

Let's not be hasty here. Vettel did make a mistake in lap 1, but even the best drivers make mistakes in races. I remember Senna running into the armco, bunsen driving into a wall, DC ...........(never mind), but I guess you get the picture. Once Vettel caught up with bunsen, he simply did not have the pace nor the tyres, nor the opportunity to pass him. Hardly his fault.

Young Vettel is a fine driver, and I expect him to win the WDC someday. My criticism on this thread is directed towards his race engineer who should have had more sense than to use that short second stint, which cost Vettel 4 points vis a vis Mark Webber.

Completely agree.

[F1boat]

Let's not be hasty here. Vettel did make a mistake in lap 1, but even the best drivers make mistakes in races. I remember Senna running into the armco, bunsen driving into a wall, DC ...........(never mind), but I guess you get the picture. Once Vettel caught up with bunsen, he simply did not have the pace nor the tyres, nor the opportunity to pass him. Hardly his fault.

Young Vettel is a fine driver, and I expect him to win the WDC someday. My criticism on this thread is directed towards his race engineer who should have had more sense than to use that short second stint, which cost Vettel 4 points vis a vis Mark Webber.

I agree that Seb is a fine driver, but it seems that he is always perfect and with other drivers it is always the car. But fact is that Vettel has trouble when he tries to overtake in the dry.

[Valve Bounce]

I agree that Seb is a fine driver, but it seems that he is always perfect and with other drivers it is always the car. But fact is that Vettel has trouble when he tries to overtake in the dry.

No race driver is perfect, and certainly not Vettel. But he is young, and he is gifted.
Most drivers in F1 do have problems trying to overtake, wet or dry. That is the nature of F1 nowadays, unfortunately.

[ioan]

I agree that Seb is a fine driver, but it seems that he is always perfect and with other drivers it is always the car. But fact is that Vettel has trouble when he tries to overtake in the dry.

Think of it Rubens couldn't overtake a Force India, and you are criticizing Vettel for not overtaking the dominant Honda?!

Double standards all the way and back, huh?!

[ioan]

No race driver is perfect, and certainly not Vettel. But he is young, and he is gifted.
Most drivers in F1 do have problems trying to overtake, wet or dry. That is the nature of F1 nowadays, unfortunately.

:up:
Valve you're in great form today!

[ClarkFan]

In his news article above, J.K.Thomson mentions that only Clark and Schumacher have made such storming starts to the F1 season (as J Button, 6 wins out of 7). In 1952 A Ascari won every GP entered, 6 out of 7 which was a string of 6 victories. I hope this is simply a mistake, and does not imply that Ascari's string is devalued because the Championship races were run to F2 regulations in 52-53. This subject was discussed recently in this forum, but more in the context of the record for consecutive WC wins over 2 seasons, and the problem posed by the Indy 500 being included. I feel that Ascari should be mentioned in the above comparison.

Well, Clark actually won the first 6 races he entered in 1965. Team Lotus skipped Monaco that year to focus on the Indianapolis 500. And won Indianapolis by 2 laps. After returning, Clark won the next 5 races, having started the season with a win in South Africa.

But Clark's 6/7 to win the World Championship may not have many implications for Button. There were only 10 races in 1965 and drivers could only count the best 6. By definition, when Clark won his 6th race the championship was over. Jensen still has a ways to go.

ClarkFan

[D28]

Well, Clark actually won the first 6 races he entered in 1965. Team Lotus skipped Monaco that year to focus on the Indianapolis 500. And won Indianapolis by 2 laps. After returning, Clark won the next 5 races, having started the season with a win in South Africa.

But Clark's 6/7 to win the World Championship may not have many implications for Button. There were only 10 races in 1965 and drivers could only count the best 6. By definition, when Clark won his 6th race the championship was over. Jensen still has a ways to go.

ClarkFan

Thanks, I had forgotten that. Indy wasn't on the WC calendar in 65, but it was still a difficult race to win. Ascari attempted to do what Clark achieved, but lasted only 40 laps at the brickyard. Clark's string is most impressive and is one up on Ascari, I can't forsee anyone beating that record.