View Full Version : Mosley tells FOTA teams: "Start your own series"...
Giuseppe F1
4th June 2009, 09:55
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75796
Start your own series, Mosley tells FOTA
By Jonathan Noble
Thursday, June 4th 2009, 08:29 GMT
Max Mosley Monaco 2009FIA president Max Mosley has indicated that the governing body is not about to bow to demands being placed on it by Formula 1's current teams about their entry to the 2010 championship.
Nine of the sport's current competitors submitted their entries to next year's championship on the condition that a new Concorde Agreement was signed by June 12 and that next year's cost-cutting rule changes are abandoned in favour of their preferred regulations.
However, speaking to Swiss publication Motorsport Aktuell, Mosley has made it clear that it is unlikely a Concorde Agreement can be put together in such a short time frame - and he has suggested the rebel teams go off and set up their own championship if they are unhappy.
"A Concorde Agreement which one receives so late can't be signed by June 12," Mosley was quoted as saying.
"We now have a conflict and we will see who succeeds in the end. I say to them: If you want to draw up your own rules, then you can organise your own championship. But we have the Formula 1 championship.
"We draw up the rules for that. We have been doing that for 60 years and we will continue doing so."
With a whole host of new teams having submitted entries to next year's championship, there are no shortage of competitors who can fill the grid if current teams do not wish to compete.
Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali said last week that if the conditions laid down by FOTA's nine members were not accepted, then their entries would be invalid.
Garry Walker
4th June 2009, 09:57
Someone shoot this powerhungry C*nt mosley.
Man I hope FOTA will go ahead and leave Max and Bernie with nothing but the Formula 1 logo!
It might be difficult on the short term but will get read of the cancer that is killing this series slowly but surely.
BTW, who will manufacture the cars for next years F1 championship if the FOTA leaves?
Most of the new entries couldn't manufacture a paper plane on their own, and submitted their intentions based on the manufacturers providing them with chassis, engine and transmission at a low cost.
SGWilko
4th June 2009, 10:24
Man I hope FOTA will go ahead and leave Max and Bernie with nothing but the Formula 1 logo!
It might be difficult on the short term but will get read of the cancer that is killing this series slowly but surely.
I've got my fingers crossed that they do....
ArrowsFA1
4th June 2009, 10:43
"We now have a conflict..."
What a surprise. It's as if this is the way Max planned it all along...as if he operates like that :dozey:
Cooper_S
4th June 2009, 10:56
It is far from clear that the nine remaining FOTA members will leave..
Brawn are looking like being double champions and will I am sure break away from FOTA and race next year.. Williams and Mercedes will race and I suspect Force India will stick to the Mercedes tie up...
Toyota, BMW, Renault plus maybe Red Bull & Toro rosso will leave but F1 will have just enough continuity to carry on...
I should add I would not watch it but I'm am not so sure the perdicted mass exodus of fans will happen... Sure a fall off initially but I'm sure just as people stop going to the pubs when the budget raises prices of beer, (people soon resort to form and return reluctantly) same will happen with F1. I think.
Hondo
4th June 2009, 11:13
What a surprise. It's as if this is the way Max planned it all along...as if he operates like that :dozey:
I do believe this is exactly what Max has been planning all along. Max is the only one without a gun to his head. Bernie needs the money to pay his bills, the FOTA folks need to race and fufill contracts, but Max can only lose a job he doesn't need, but enjoys having. It should have been obvious if not by the end of the Indy 6 car USGP, then at least by the end of the spanking affair that Max is not going to have anyone dictate terms to him on anything.
It is far from clear that the nine remaining FOTA members will leave..
Brawn are looking like being double champions and will I am sure break away from FOTA and race next year..
How can you say you are sure about something that doesn't depend on you?!
As an aside I doubt that Brawn wants to be one of Max's slaves, he's not exactly that kind of person.
I do believe this is exactly what Max has been planning all along. Max is the only one without a gun to his head. Bernie needs the money to pay his bills, the FOTA folks need to race and fufill contracts, but Max can only lose a job he doesn't need, but enjoys having. It should have been obvious if not by the end of the Indy 6 car USGP, then at least by the end of the spanking affair that Max is not going to have anyone dictate terms to him on anything.
Than let's hope he loses his job!
ArrowsFA1
4th June 2009, 12:06
...Max can only lose a job he doesn't need, but enjoys having.
Over the years, with the restructuring of the FIA that was proposed by Max, there is no chance that he will lose his job over any of this, or anything else. He has ensured that the only time there will, or can be, a change of FIA President, is at a time, and for a reason, he alone decides.
The future of the FIA F1 World Championship is therefore whatever Max decides it will be. It is not open for discussion. Given that the reason FOTA was created was because the teams did not accept the future as outlined by Max, then what is their option other than to, as Max says, "organise your own championship"?
If that happens then the FIA will be left with the official F1 World Championship, and the likes of N.Technology, Prodrive, Lola, USF1, Team Superfund, Epsilon-Euskadi, Campos Meta 1 and Litespeed competing.
If not, then the FOTA teams will have managed a u-turn, and committed themselves to a low budget, spec-type, F1 championship moving towards the concept we now see in F2.
Most of the new entries couldn't manufacture a paper plane on their own, and submitted their intentions based on the manufacturers providing them with chassis, engine and transmission at a low cost.
The 2010 rules, as currently proposed, do not allow teams to buy a customer chassis. An engine and transmission? Half the field already buys those today, and one of those teams is leading the championship.
The 2010 rules, as currently proposed, do not allow teams to buy a customer chassis. An engine and transmission? Half the field already buys those today, and one of those teams is leading the championship.
Only that half the field buys it from one of the manufacturers, no manufacturers in F1= no more engine and transmission for low prices.
Will they all run Cosworths?! Not sure they can provide so many engines and not sure if they provide transmissions at all.
And if buying a chassis is not allowed in 2010 how do all these nobodies plan to get one, at least a Force India level of competitiveness one?
The more I think about it the more obvious it is that 90% of all these phantom entries are just Max's attempt to force the FOTA to accept his rules.
I hope the FOTA announce tomorrow that they are going to have their own championship (based on the A1GP championship base or parallel with it, using A1 as support races like GP2 is used now).
Than Bernie will go into panic mode and talk some sense into Max or hire someone to make him an offer he can't refuse.
Knock-on
4th June 2009, 13:04
The 2010 rules, as currently proposed, do not allow teams to buy a customer chassis. An engine and transmission? Half the field already buys those today, and one of those teams is leading the championship.
Blimey, it feels weird having an Admin I have never heard of that posts on average 1 post a year :)
Blimey, it feels weird having an Admin I have never heard of that posts on average 1 post a year :)
I was wondering about that too, what might have pushed him to post again?
a take over of A1GP would be the way to go
Blimey, it feels weird having an Admin I have never heard of that posts on average 1 post a year :)
Hey, I resemble that remark! :D
I was wondering about that too, what might have pushed him to post again?
Ah, looking around to see what people are saying about the new teams ...
Ah, looking around to see what people are saying about the new teams ...
Well the situation in F1 must be dire if you went as far as posting 3 times in a couple of hours! ;)
BTW, nice to 'meet' you! :)
Only that half the field buys it from one of the manufacturers, no manufacturers in F1= no more engine and transmission for low prices.
Will they all run Cosworths?! Not sure they can provide so many engines and not sure if they provide transmissions at all.
At least Xtrac provides transmissions.
And if buying a chassis is not allowed in 2010 how do all these nobodies plan to get one, at least a Force India level of competitiveness one?
All of them? No way. But I'm confident that people like Prodrive, Lola and Epsilon Euskadi can do it.
I hope the FOTA announce tomorrow that they are going to have their own championship (based on the A1GP championship base or parallel with it, using A1 as support races like GP2 is used now).
The trouble is that (1) many of the teams have contracts with FOM to run in F1 until 2012, and (2) all the teams have contracts with their sponsors that are specific to running F1. Even if you could arrange the race logistics, doing a new series for 2010 would be commercially very, very difficult.
The trouble is that (1) many of the teams have contracts with FOM to run in F1 until 2012,
I think they have some kind of mutual agreement but no signed contracts, that's why they asked for a new Concorde agreement to be signed under their conditions by 12th June.
It also seems that Bernie didn't pay them the TV rights for quite some time because he wants first the new Concorde to be signed, and this is a breach of the above mentioned agreement.
IMO the teams are free to go.
and (2) all the teams have contracts with their sponsors that are specific to running F1. Even if you could arrange the race logistics, doing a new series for 2010 would be commercially very, very difficult.
I suppose the sponsors would stay, probably with a smaller contribution as long as the FOTA is united in starting a new F1 equivalent series.
Sponsors will still get good exposure and will continue to be related with the greatest motorsport teams of the moment.
I can't see Mar!boro pull out of their Ferrari contract to go and sponsor some no name team in Mosley's F1.
Anyway if they are to stand a chance to get it their way the FOTA has to go this route, because if they give in to Max's requests than they'll be no more than his whores and that is a massive loss of face for such strong willed people.
Sleeper
4th June 2009, 14:02
For once Max has made a sensible suggestion, I hope the teams follow up on it and take the better prepared of the new entries with them.
Cooper_S
4th June 2009, 14:03
If the FOTA teams do decide to break away and form a new series, I'll still be calling it F1 regardless.. :p
Maybe they can can call it 'I can't believe it's not F1'
Anyway if they are to stand a chance to get it their way the FOTA has to go this route, because if they give in to Max's requests than they'll be no more than his whores and that is a massive loss of face for such strong willed people.
A massive loss of face for arrogant b*stards like di Montezemolo? If you think he's any nicer than Max or Bernie, you're dreaming.
Anyway, this is fundamentally no different than the old FOCA power struggle, for example. In the end there will be a compromise, but time is really too short for FOTA to try to do a breakaway series for 2010. And I think FOTA is far less united than their statements make it sound.
A massive loss of face for arrogant b*stards like di Montezemolo? If you think he's any nicer than Max or Bernie, you're dreaming.
Between an arrogant b@astard and a power hungry dictator I chose the arrogant! :)
Anyway, this is fundamentally no different than the old FOCA power struggle, for example. In the end there will be a compromise, but time is really too short for FOTA to try to do a breakaway series for 2010. And I think FOTA is far less united than their statements make it sound.
10 months is more than enough and having the A1 series (with really everything needed in place) to fall back on is a huge advantage.
All they need is say that they'll do it and start working towards it and be sure that Bernie will jump straight on the possibility to be a part of it, leaving Max with Williams and a bunch wannabees. I'm not even sure they will be able to field the required number of cars, in order not to violate the TV contracts, given that most of the entries are only on paper and they will not be able to design and produce an F1 car out of nothing.
10 months is more than enough and having the A1 series (with really everything needed in place) to fall back on is a huge advantage.
If you are thinking of piggybacking on the A1GP schedule, that series starts in October.
All they need is say that they'll do it and start working towards it and be sure that Bernie will jump straight on the possibility to be a part of it, (...)
Given that a large part of Ecclestone's personal fortune is tied up in the F1 commercial rights, I'm not sure that he wants to just throw those away.
If you are thinking of piggybacking on the A1GP schedule, that series starts in October.
Well, the cars exist and are ready to run!
Also, alternatively, A1GP ends around the start of the next F1 season so everything they have will be available to the FOTA, like transport possibilities all over the world, high definition TV and internet broadcasting etc.
Signing up the tracks is an easy task given the huge number of tracks available all over the world that are not even looked at by Bernie: Silverstone, Imola, Mugello, Fiorano, Magny Cours, Jerez, Portimao, Kyalami, one of the German tracks, one of the Japanese tracks, US tracks (plenty of them), Canadian too, there's a great track in Argentina (Potrero or something like that and plenty of other in Europe alone.
Given that a large part of Ecclestone's personal fortune is tied up in the F1 commercial rights, I'm not sure that he wants to just throw those away.
He's only got 10% of the FOM now, if his wife didn't get it after the divorce, 10% that would be worth only half if the Ferrari leaves F1, and worth nothing if FOTA leaves.
Signing up the tracks is an easy task (...)
I think you should offer your services to some of the racing series that seem to have much more difficulties negotiating with tracks and promoters and arranging logistics ...
He's only got 10% of the FOM now, if his wife didn't get it after the divorce, 10% that would be worth only half if the Ferrari leaves F1, and worth nothing if FOTA leaves.
Which is exactly why he will do everything in his power to keep F1 alive, with as many FOTA teams as possible.
Which is exactly why he will do everything in his power to keep F1 alive, with as many FOTA teams as possible.
He's got 2 choices than:
1. Give more money to the teams, not gone change to much as most of the FOTA teams will not need it if there is an exaggeratedly small budget cap in place.
2. Get rid of Max, because this power struggle isn't only about the budget cap, it's about his dictatorship.
I think you should offer your services to some of the racing series that seem to have much more difficulties negotiating with tracks and promoters and arranging logistics ...
Any contract can be negotiated within hours if both parties are sincere and are not trying to get one over each other.
Bernie needs months to sign a contract because he is asking way to much money.
2. Get rid of Max, because this power struggle isn't only about the budget cap, it's about his dictatorship.
Getting rid of Mosley will not happen until the FIA election, when the votes are cast by all the countries. And as much as I'd like to see a change, I suspect he'll be voted back in.
The fact is that the FIA sets the rules for the series, and the member countries elected Mosley to run the FIA.
I believe that offering a reasonable alternative might have been a more effective FOTA strategy than demanding that the FIA retain the 2009 rules.
Bernie needs months to sign a contract because he is asking way to much money.
And exactly how would this be different if you had Ecclestone negotiating the agreements for a new series?
woody2goody
4th June 2009, 17:24
The real power-hungry ones are the FOTA teams. This gradual scaling down of budgets is by far the best way to go. When are they going to realise that this cost cutting is going to save them millions of pounds?
Between, Williams, Brawn (they would probably quit FOTA if they won the titles), Campos, Prodrive, Lola, iSport, Epsilon Euskadi, March and Superfund, we'll have a series which, may be of a lesser quality for a couple of years, but would be very competitive, and no doubt more sportsmanlike.
And exactly how would this be different if you had Ecclestone negotiating the agreements for a new series?
He asks way to much now because he works on behalf of the CVC who have a 3 billion loan to repay to RBS, so they need to extort as much money as possible.
If he were hired by the teams to make the games he'll be hired to sign up tracks not to extort money from them.
From my POV there is a difference.
The real power-hungry ones are the FOTA teams. This gradual scaling down of budgets is by far the best way to go. When are they going to realise that this cost cutting is going to save them millions of pounds?
Between, Williams, Brawn (they would probably quit FOTA if they won the titles), Campos, Prodrive, Lola, iSport, Epsilon Euskadi, March and Superfund, we'll have a series which, may be of a lesser quality for a couple of years, but would be very competitive, and no doubt more sportsmanlike.
Did you read the rules proposed for next season?
If you didn't, and that's what it looks to me, than I suggest you do so before commenting.
Bagwan
4th June 2009, 18:41
Well, the cars exist and are ready to run!
Also, alternatively, A1GP ends around the start of the next F1 season so everything they have will be available to the FOTA, like transport possibilities all over the world, high definition TV and internet broadcasting etc.
Signing up the tracks is an easy task given the huge number of tracks available all over the world that are not even looked at by Bernie: Silverstone, Imola, Mugello, Fiorano, Magny Cours, Jerez, Portimao, Kyalami, one of the German tracks, one of the Japanese tracks, US tracks (plenty of them), Canadian too, there's a great track in Argentina (Potrero or something like that and plenty of other in Europe alone.
He's only got 10% of the FOM now, if his wife didn't get it after the divorce, 10% that would be worth only half if the Ferrari leaves F1, and worth nothing if FOTA leaves.
Starting from scratch to get a new series up and running is difficult , but this is not that .
Starting a series with all the equipment and rules in place , and with years and years of built-in rivalries between top-notch names as well , would be less so .
Find the tracks that can't afford Bernie , and you find most of the memories of the old days of F1 .
In every crisis there is also opportunity .
This is it .
If FOTA leaves , I will follow them to Mosport , Kylami , Montreal , Argentina , Watkin's Glen , and all those other iconic F1 tracks that made F1 what I remember .
It's just a little ironic that thoughts of a new series elicit thoughts of the old F1 .
And , doubly so , if one thinks about it , because it is that fact that makes it , in my mind , viable .
If FOTA is indeed serious about leaving , the phones at all of those dumped tracks should be ringing as I write this , and proposals should be on the table already for the alternative series .
Max has said they should leave , and that should be what they are looking into .
yodasarmpit
4th June 2009, 18:48
I'm not a big fan of Max, but good for him.
The teams don't run F1 and they shouldn't be in a position to do so. Yes they should have a say, as proven by the point that the cap has been increased.
A breakaway series would simply be a disaster, having competing teams draw up the rules, no way. F1 will survive with or without the old guard.
On another note.
So all these great teams, Ferrari, McLaren etc, can't be all that great if they scared that they can't compete with smaller teams on an even budget.
For too long now, the team with the biggest budget wins the championship, or comes a close second.
The teams don't run F1 and they shouldn't be in a position to do so.
Amen to that.
harsha
4th June 2009, 19:03
I want a parallel championship
Hondo
4th June 2009, 19:14
I'm not a big fan of Max, but good for him.
The teams don't run F1 and they shouldn't be in a position to do so. Yes they should have a say, as proven by the point that the cap has been increased.
A breakaway series would simply be a disaster, having competing teams draw up the rules, no way. F1 will survive with or without the old guard.
On another note.
So all these great teams, Ferrari, McLaren etc, can't be all that great if they scared that they can't compete with smaller teams on an even budget.
For too long now, the team with the biggest budget wins the championship, or comes a close second.
Toyota has no championships, nor did BAR, Benneton had a couple and I don't think they had the biggest budget. I agree that a large budget is certainly helpful in F1 as well as other endeavors but thats not all of it. F1 is unique due to the desigen and engineering freedoms allowed. It is very much a team sport and when a team "clicks" with every one on the same page, they excell. Funny how one or two changes in the team can send it up or down the grid. In F1 the people you have are probably more important than the budget. Ask Ferrari, McLaren, Red Bull, and Brawn.
He asks way to much now because he works on behalf of the CVC who have a 3 billion loan to repay to RBS, so they need to extort as much money as possible.
He did that before CVC, too. How do you think Ecclestone built his fortune?
Alfa Fan
4th June 2009, 19:30
Someone once said the world of F1 would implode before Button won the WDC. Looks like they might be right....
If FOTA leaves , I will follow them to Mosport , Kylami , Montreal , Argentina , Watkin's Glen , and all those other iconic F1 tracks that made F1 what I remember .
Alas, the facilities at Mosport and Watkins Glen are not even close to being able to host a top-class race -- they would need a massive overhaul (Buenos Aires is closer, though). And the current Kyalami circuit is a pale shadow of its former iconic self.
Bagwan
4th June 2009, 20:56
Alas, the facilities at Mosport and Watkins Glen are not even close to being able to host a top-class race -- they would need a massive overhaul (Buenos Aires is closer, though). And the current Kyalami circuit is a pale shadow of its former iconic self.
Tom , you're talking about the Bernie standard formula , where the race fan comes second to the paddock club .
Nostalgia is the driver , and the fee for the race weekend would be unlikely to be Bernie-sized .
Equal sharing of the gate and ad money is what all the players would want , as they do now .
I would face a porta-potty any day for a trip to see these guys at Mosport .
I'll buy that ticket the day it goes on sale , as would a hell of a pile of others just like me .
I would face a porta-potty any day for a trip to see these guys at Mosport .
Yes ... but Mosport has no garage facilities to handle a modern F1 team, no modern race control, only a handful of small grandstands, no media facilities to speak of, insufficient runoffs, parking that's barely big enough for ALMS, circuit access that would be massively clogged with traffic, and more. And Watkins Glen has more or less the same problems.
As much as I love Mosport (and the Glen, for that matter), it's unrealistic to expect F1 (or equivalent) to run there in the near term ... if ever again.
FOTA could always race at Reims.
Easy Drifter
4th June 2009, 22:47
Has anybody noticed that if FOTA leaves we will be back to the "Garagistas" of the 70's and 80's?
Remember Mad Max was one of them.
I would love to see F1 at Mosport but practically it is an no go. Garage and pit problems.
Access is better than early 60's when the crowds were upwards of 60,000. Now there are a few running water washrooms. Food is now edible!
Grandstands can be rented. See IRL at CNE.
Speeds would also be scary as would safety concerns. Lap times would be under 1 minute.
But F1 coming down the Chute!!!!!! What a sight that would be.
I loved that turn as a driver.
Given a year and a guaranteed race I expect many of the problems could be overcome with money. Turn 3 (Quebec) could be a safety problem due to proximity of a public road not allowing much change.
The Glen would cost even more to upgrade as the steel guardrail is no longer acceptable for good reason.
In an ideal world we'd have the "garagistes" and the manufacturers teaming up in one series. Williams-Renault...Brabham-BMW...McLaren-Honda...Benetton-Ford... those were the days!
maximilian
4th June 2009, 23:29
With all due respect, but you guys are dreaming if you think that the MANUFACTURERS (FOTA) are some sort of racing purists who want to return to the roots of Formula 1, and bring back all the classic tracks we are drooling over. They are in fact the ones who are in the sport for mostly commercial interests, and not for the love of pure racing. You don't spend 400 million just because you love racing. It's a business.
Roamy
4th June 2009, 23:38
I have never understood why the FOT's are hanging around listening to the midget and the douche bag anyway.. They are long overdue to go start their own series and manage it themselves
one thing to think about is any new race series would need to have FIA approval i can not see the Rsole giving it to then
He did that before CVC, too. How do you think Ecclestone built his fortune?
By selling F1 commercial rights to all kind of people, buying it bank and now finally selling it for 3 billions to CVC, that's how.
Someone once said the world of F1 would implode before Button won the WDC. Looks like they might be right....
:up: :rotflmao: :up:
With all due respect, but you guys are dreaming if you think that the MANUFACTURERS (FOTA) are some sort of racing purists who want to return to the roots of Formula 1, and bring back all the classic tracks we are drooling over. They are in fact the ones who are in the sport for mostly commercial interests, and not for the love of pure racing. You don't spend 400 million just because you love racing. It's a business.
Give me a break. Where were all these no name cheapos during the last 10 years? Where was their love for pure racing?!
I believe Ferrari's, Mercedes', BMW's, Renault's and Toyota's racing legacy is much more than any of these nobodies would ever dream of achieving!
one thing to think about is any new race series would need to have FIA approval i can not see the Rsole giving it to then
That's not true! It's a very popular urban myth that hold no truth whatsoever. Check the FIA site and see for yourself how few of the world wide racing series are FIA sanctioned.
Starting from scratch to get a new series up and running is difficult , but this is not that .
Starting a series with all the equipment and rules in place , and with years and years of built-in rivalries between top-notch names as well , would be less so .
Find the tracks that can't afford Bernie , and you find most of the memories of the old days of F1 .
In every crisis there is also opportunity .
This is it .
If FOTA leaves , I will follow them to Mosport , Kylami , Montreal , Argentina , Watkin's Glen , and all those other iconic F1 tracks that made F1 what I remember .
It's just a little ironic that thoughts of a new series elicit thoughts of the old F1 .
And , doubly so , if one thinks about it , because it is that fact that makes it , in my mind , viable .
If FOTA is indeed serious about leaving , the phones at all of those dumped tracks should be ringing as I write this , and proposals should be on the table already for the alternative series .
Max has said they should leave , and that should be what they are looking into .
Amen to that! :up:
maximilian
4th June 2009, 23:55
Give me a break. Where were all these no name cheapos during the last 10 years? Where was their love for pure racing?!
I believe Ferrari's, Mercedes', BMW's, Renault's and Toyota's racing legacy is much more than any of these nobodies would ever dream of achieving!
I am not saying that the Formula GP3 group are purists, I am just saying, people shouldn't think that the FOTA has much more than their own business interests in mind and would give a crap about bringing back classic tracks.
Indeed, some of them have fantastic racing legacy, but a big part of why they are in the business of racing is, because it makes business sense. A la Honda, *poof* they are gone, as soon as it doesn't.
That's not true! It's a very popular urban myth that hold no truth whatsoever. Check the FIA site and see for yourself how few of the world wide racing series are FIA sanctioned.
i beg to differ on this even the bathurst 1000 is FIA sanctioned. or was 4 years ago
Sleeper
5th June 2009, 00:25
i beg to differ on this even the bathurst 1000 is FIA sanctioned. or was 4 years ago
There are very few series that are directly FIA sanctioned, most are done so through the national organisations or through a collaboration between organisations. Unfortunatly most of them make up the FIA membership as well.
AndyL
5th June 2009, 01:03
And the current Kyalami circuit is a pale shadow of its former iconic self.
Interesting you should say that. I watched the World Superbikes from there a few weeks ago and I thought it looked like a great circuit, in a nice, picturesque setting. Reminded me of Brands Hatch in some ways. Looked like a place I would really like to go to watch a race.
It doesn't seem even remotely close to modern F1 safety standards though. And it would probably be ruined if it was brought up to those standards (again like Brands).
Valve Bounce
5th June 2009, 01:46
BTW, who will manufacture the cars for next years F1 championship if the FOTA leaves?
Most of the new entries couldn't manufacture a paper plane on their own, and submitted their intentions based on the manufacturers providing them with chassis, engine and transmission at a low cost.
ioan, please go to the Brawn sells old Honda's thread. :p :
Easy Drifter
5th June 2009, 01:56
Depending on how it all falls out some of the current F1 tracks might just decide to run races for both series, should that happen.
Then it would be interesting to see what Mad Max would do about track licenceing
one thing to think about is any new race series would need to have FIA approval i can not see the Rsole giving it to then
And if they ran without FIA (or national association) sanctioning, as a rogue series, anyone working with the series -- teams, drivers, stewards, marshals etc -- could be banned from any and all FIA-sanctioned events. Which makes it a lot harder to attract people to work the series ...
maximilian
5th June 2009, 02:40
Max Mosley has even invited FOTA to form a breakaway series, so I see no reason to believe that such a series would not get approval.
Max Mosley has even invited FOTA to form a breakaway series (...)
Better yet, he actually helped to start a breakaway series back in 1981, when he was FOCA's lawyer and the FOCA teams were incensed over Jean-Marie Balestre's rule changes (sound familiar yet?) banning ground effects. Of course, that breakaway series folded after a singular race in Kyalami ...
airshifter
5th June 2009, 04:26
I'm sick of it. I hope FOTA stands their ground united and goes their own direction. I would rather even miss a season of real racing than see such capable teams be dumbed down by the idiots at the helm right now.
I do agree that for the most part the manufacturers are in F1 for the business aspect, but if the FIA and Max don't understand the both sides want to make money then the FOTA group united should walk away. What they are proposing is changing the regs so they get their money, and the manufacturers, now running almost a spec car, get even less return on their investment.
If FOTA walks (and I hope they do if they don't get their desires) then I'll walk with them, even if it's a rough path. I don't want to see F1 Light, I don't want to see Kinda F1 or Semi F1. I want to see real F1 racing!
ShiftingGears
5th June 2009, 05:14
And the current Kyalami circuit is a pale shadow of its former iconic self.
It's true. The old Kyalami was one of the great fast, flowing race tracks.
christophulus
5th June 2009, 09:04
Force India defects too - signs up unconditionally for next year http://www.f1way.com/news/2009/June/5/force-india-defects-lodges-2010-entry
Auto Motor und Sport said that Brawn GP, which like Williams and Force India is an independent outfit that would welcome the budget cap's cost-limiting function, is not going to also defect.
"The recent proposal of the teams makes a great many concessions to the FIA," Ross Brawn is quoted as saying. "The result would be the same as Mosley's budget limit."
BMW's Mario Theissen on Thursday agreed that the proposal is similar to the budget cap, although the 'name' would have to change.
So if the conditions are the same, what's all the fuss?
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 09:46
That's not true! It's a very popular urban myth that hold no truth whatsoever. Check the FIA site and see for yourself how few of the world wide racing series are FIA sanctioned.
Sorry ioan but you are 100% wrong on this as was pointed out when we discussed GP2 a few months back.
The FIA sanctions some series directly including F1 but you have to adhear to FIA regulations to race.
From memory (you may like to provide evidence to the contrary ;) ) International series are directly controlled and national series through the individual contries FIA member.
If any breakaway series wanted to break from the FIA, they would need their own tracks that don't hold other events. It's a non starter.
However, any breakaway series would not struggle getting approval.
This isn't the problem though.
Forget A1GP. It's a non starter and holds no interest to the FOTA teams whatsoever unless fitting a square peg in a round hole is what they want to do.
There are 3 options:
1. The FOTA teams disband to fight in other series or dissapear back to becomming manufacturers. Possible?
2. The Manufacturers start up a series of their own. I see this as a possibility but not for next year but a new Series X for 2012 or so. There is room for a high spec manufacturers series where the best technology is showcased. This is not the pinnacle of Motorsport but of engineering. Wont happen next year
3. FOTA crumbles. The teams race in next years championship and the manufacturers gradually leave. Max rules the championship as he wants. Sadly, this is what will happen.
AndyL
5th June 2009, 10:41
If any breakaway series wanted to break from the FIA, they would need their own tracks that don't hold other events. It's a non starter.
I don't really understand this, at least as far as European tracks are concerned. If the FIA punish tracks for holding non-FIA events, isn't that just like Intel getting the PC makers in a headlock to squeeze AMD out of the market? The sort of thing that the EU competition commission is supposed to protect us from, and that they fined Intel a billion Euro for? That would make Max's eyes water :bigcry:
i beg to differ on this even the bathurst 1000 is FIA sanctioned. or was 4 years ago
So, is it or was it FIA sanctioned?!
As I said, take a look to the FIA web page, all the info is there.
There are very few series that are directly FIA sanctioned, most are done so through the national organisations or through a collaboration between organisations. Unfortunatly most of them make up the FIA membership as well.
Sure, however I have no doubts that the Italian, German, French, Austrian national organization would be more than happy to sanction a racing series set up by Ferrari, Mercedes, BMW, Renault, Red Bull and Toyota!
Sorry ioan but you are 100% wrong on this as was pointed out when we discussed GP2 a few months back.
The FIA sanctions some series directly including F1 but you have to adhear to FIA regulations to race.
From memory (you may like to provide evidence to the contrary ;) ) International series are directly controlled and national series through the individual contries FIA member.
If any breakaway series wanted to break from the FIA, they would need their own tracks that don't hold other events. It's a non starter.
However, any breakaway series would not struggle getting approval.
This isn't the problem though.
Forget A1GP. It's a non starter and holds no interest to the FOTA teams whatsoever unless fitting a square peg in a round hole is what they want to do.
There are 3 options:
1. The FOTA teams disband to fight in other series or dissapear back to becomming manufacturers. Possible?
2. The Manufacturers start up a series of their own. I see this as a possibility but not for next year but a new Series X for 2012 or so. There is room for a high spec manufacturers series where the best technology is showcased. This is not the pinnacle of Motorsport but of engineering. Wont happen next year
3. FOTA crumbles. The teams race in next years championship and the manufacturers gradually leave. Max rules the championship as he wants. Sadly, this is what will happen.
Man you are really tiresome trying to back up urban myths that are so wrong. Also you are generalizing each and every thing from your POV, which is simple wrong.
Is it GP2 representative for all the racing series in the world? Maybe in your mind, but not in real life.
You are yet to provide a list with all the motor racing series that proves they are all sanctioned or ran under FIA rules, so please start working straight ahead, you'll have lots of work to do and you'll see just how wrong you are.
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 10:55
Man you are really tiresome trying to back up urban myths that are so wrong. Also you are generalizing each and every thing from your POV, which is simple wrong.
Is it GP2 representative for all the racing series in the world? Maybe in your mind, but not in real life.
You are yet to provide a list with all the motor racing series that proves they are all sanctioned or ran under FIA rules, so please start working straight ahead, you'll have lots of work to do and you'll see just how wrong you are.
:rolleyes:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... v08ANG.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/DD5A1BFC38A13D83C125751400375656/$FILE/CSI_apres_AGNov08ANG.pdf)
You shouldn't have to read more than the first page.
I don't really understand this, at least as far as European tracks are concerned. If the FIA punish tracks for holding non-FIA events, isn't that just like Intel getting the PC makers in a headlock to squeeze AMD out of the market? The sort of thing that the EU competition commission is supposed to protect us from, and that they fined Intel a billion Euro for? That would make Max's eyes water :bigcry:
You're right, the FIA can not and will not be able to do what Knockie suggests because such action contravenes with the EU laws in terms of competition freedom.
:rolleyes:
http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.ns ... v08ANG.pdf (http://argent.fia.com/web/fia-public.nsf/DD5A1BFC38A13D83C125751400375656/$FILE/CSI_apres_AGNov08ANG.pdf)
You shouldn't have to read more than the first page.
That's crap.
What if a national entity doesn't want to be part of Mosley's dictatorship crap?
And what if I want to have a motor racing series sanctioned by the Ministry of sport of a country? There's no one who can stop me doing so.
Have to reckon that Max does a good job in trying to control everything but the worse part is that there are naive people like you who believe that is the only way there is.
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 11:04
You're right, the FIA can not and will not be able to do what Knockie suggests because such action contravenes with the EU laws in terms of competition freedom.
Competitive freedom demands that all competitions should be fair and equitable to all entrants. The FIA and FOM drive a V8 through the middle of these regs by favouring 1 team with both financial and regulatory privilidge.
Agreed?
However, this diverts away from the discussion.
To what are you alluding when you say the FIA cannot do what I suggest? As far as I recall, I have said that if a breakaway series want no involvement with the FIA, they would have to have their own tracks but there is no need as a breakaway series would not struggle to get FIA approval anyway just as GP2 currently opperates.
Feel free to correct me if I am wrong :p
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 11:08
That's crap.
What if a national entity doesn't want to be part of Mosley's dictatorship crap?
And what if I want to have a motor racing series sanctioned by the Ministry of sport of a country? There's no one who can stop me doing so.
Have to reckon that Max does a good job in trying to control everything but the worse part is that there are naive people like you who believe that is the only way there is.
It may be crap but it's fact and no "Urban Myth" as you like to call it.
You are wrong so just accept it. If you want to take it up with anyone, speak with your mate MAX, or the European Court, or The Hague War Crimes Commission or anyone but me please.
(Oh, and a simple "OK, sorry I was wrong" would be appreciated ;) )
To what are you alluding when you say the FIA cannot do what I suggest? As far as I recall, I have said that if a breakaway series want no involvement with the FIA, they would have to have their own tracks but there is no need as a breakaway series would not struggle to get FIA approval anyway just as GP2 currently opperates.
They own tracks? They have their own tracks and can sign any othe track that isn't in F1.
Tracks are not owned by the FIA!
How about you backing up some of your arguements with a link ioan? Rather than being so aggressive and condescending, maybe you should do abit of research yourself. Chill out for goodness sake, not every opinion is a personal attack on you ;)
:s mokin: :s mokin:
The FIA site is there if you wish to read it, or maybe you need a link to it?
Here, I feel generous today:
http://www.fia.com :D
As much as I am anti-Mister Max and his little midget, there will be no FOTA series.
These are times of economic hardships... And no, not the manufacturers per se. But sponsors, they decide. Will sponsors take a chance on a FOTA-run series?
I don't think so. They will pressure teams to stay in FIA's F1.
The midget will also do everything in his power to make the teams stay.
As for Mister Max, I am begining to think we are closer every day to seeing the outlawing of the FIA... I think that was the point of the Ferrari lawsuit. And maybe that's the [only real] long term strategy. Max will not go easily, the FIA will have to be wrestled from his cold dead hands.
BUT, there has to be something the European Commission ( or some other power) can do about this, right? FIA, FOA (or whatever name it goes by) are a monopoly and in some way illegal (or have dealing of such a nature)?
The Germans don't deal with the FIA anymore - as long as Mister Max is in power, right?
There surely must be someone who can get the EC (or something) to do a corruption invertigation into the FIA?
I'm sure findings of inconsistencies/corruption/etc by someone like the EC would help in a vote-of-no-confidence against Mister Max? (If legal action isnt/cant taken, that is)
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 11:20
They own tracks? They have their own tracks and can sign any othe track that isn't in F1.
Tracks are not owned by the FIA!
Please just read the paper I posted. It answers all your questions and will stop you making fundemental mistakes.
Still waiting for the apology ;)
Holding breath....
Going Blue!!!
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx
The Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, hereafter termed
the FIA, shall be the sole international sporting authority entitled
to make and enforce regulations for the encouragement and
control of automobile competitions and records, and to organise
FIA International Championships and shall be the final
international court of appeal for the settlement of disputes arising
therefrom
Interesting isn't it?
Maybe we should all just pool up and hire a hit man...
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 11:28
The FIA site is there if you wish to read it, or maybe you need a link to it?
Here, I feel generous today:
http://www.fia.com :D
THEN READ THE SITE THEN!!!
International regulations of motor sport
The Fédération Internationale de l'Automobile, hereafter termed
the FIA, shall be the sole international sporting authority entitled
to make and enforce regulations for the encouragement and
control of automobile competitions and records, and to organise
FIA International Championships and shall be the final
international court of appeal for the settlement of disputes arising
therefrom; it being acknowledged that the Fédération
Internationale Motocycliste shall exercise the same powers
insofar as vehicles with one, two and three wheels are concerned.
For matters relating to Karting, the FIA may on an annual basis
delegate its international sporting power to any recognised body,
the role of which is to supervise international Karting activities of a
sporting nature in strict accordance with this Code and the FIA
regulations.
2. International Sporting Code
So that the above powers may be exercised in a fair and
equitable manner the FIA has drawn up the present "International
Sporting Code" (the Code). The purpose of this Code and its
appendices is to encourage and facilitate international motor
sport. It will never be enforced so as to prevent or impede a
competition or the participation of a competitor, save where the
FIA concludes that this is necessary for the safe, fair or orderly
conduct of motor sport.
3. National control of motor sport
Each National Club or Federation belonging to the FIA, shall be
presumed to acquiesce in and be bound by this Code. Subject to
such acquiescence and restraint, one single Club or one single
Federation per country, hereafter called ASN, shall be recognised
by the FIA as sole international sporting power for the
enforcement of the present Code and control of motor sport
throughout the territories placed under the authority of its own
country.
4. Exercise of the sporting power in the territories
Non-autonomous territories of a State are subject to the
sporting power exercised by the ASN representing the said State
at the FIA.
5. Delegation of sporting power
Each ASN shall have the right to delegate the whole or part of
the powers conferred by this Code to another, or several other
Clubs of its country, but only after obtaining the prior approval of
the FIA.
6. Withdrawal of delegation
An ASN may withdraw the delegation of its powers provided it
notifies the FIA of such withdrawal.
7. National competition rules
Each ASN may draw up its own national competition rules
which will compulsorily be sent to the FIA.
That's crap.
What if a national entity doesn't want to be part of Mosley's dictatorship crap?
And what if I want to have a motor racing series sanctioned by the Ministry of sport of a country? There's no one who can stop me doing so.
No one forces a national association to be part of the FIA -- they can leave at any time. But then you are back to running outside the FIA. Being a member association of the FIA (like a member of any organization) means that you agree to play by the rules of that organization.
Oh yes, it also means that you get to vote in the FIA presidentials elections ...
Competitive freedom demands that all competitions should be fair and equitable to all entrants. The FIA and FOM drive a V8 through the middle of these regs by favouring 1 team with both financial and regulatory privilidge.
Agreed?
Absolutely.
And now that team, who also appears to have been granted exclusive rights to running red cars, now wants to have the power to set the rules not just for themselves but also for the other teams.
Valve Bounce
5th June 2009, 13:19
Have to reckon that Max does a good job in trying to control everything but the worse part is that there are naive people like you who believe that is the only way there is.
Fancy a holiday, ioan? There is another P&O cruise that is almost free of the swine flu. You might even get 75% of your money back.
http://www.crash.net/Formula+One/News/147884/1/alonso_budget_cap_a_big_mistake_wants_breakaway.ht ml
Formula 1's leading drivers have re-iterated their earnest concerns for the future of the sport as the ongoing FIA-FOTA budget cap war rumbles on in Istanbul this weekend – with double world champion Fernando Alonso claiming it would be a 'big mistake' to allow just 'anyone' to join the starting grid, and revealing his hopes in the enduring climate that a breakaway series does materialise.
FIA President Max Mosley has laid down the gauntlet to teams by telling them that 'if they want to formulate their own rules, then they can organise their own championship' [see separate story – click here (http://www.crash.net/Formula+One/News/147884/1/alonso_mosley_making_big_mistake_wants_breakaway.h tml)]. Confessing his own fears that F1 would be diluted should some of the potential newcomers – from British F3 tail-enders Litespeed to former World Touring Car Championship outfit N.Technology, which went into liquidation earlier this year, as well as two Spanish hopefuls – be granted entries, Alonso suggests that might just be the best thing that could happen.
“With this revolution it seems like almost anyone can have a Formula 1 team,” the Renault star told Spanish media ahead of this weekend's Turkish Grand Prix, “and I think that's a big mistake for the sport.
“Hopefully [a breakaway series] happens. It would be a dream if there was a Spanish team, but not if at the same time Formula 1 becomes a sort of 'big GP2'.”
The 21-time grand prix-winner's thoughts were echoed in the paddock by BMW-Sauber rival Nick Heidfeld and Red Bull Racing ace Sebastian Vettel, with the former hinting that there may be few drivers willing to hang around should some of the present teams – Ferrari, Toyota, Renault and Red Bull chief amongst them – follow through with their threats to walk away if Mosley stands firm on the controversial and unpopular £40 million cap.
“If it's going to be something like Formula 3, it would not necessarily be a place you would want to stay,” contended Heidfeld, speaking to German news agency SID. “The current situation is that it is impossible to predict what is going to happen. You follow the news more attentively than usual, [and] naturally you have concerns.
Valve Bounce
5th June 2009, 13:25
It will be interesting which direction the drivers will head. As most will be contracted to the FOTA teams, it would be interesting to see who Max will get to drive in his F1 series.
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 13:26
Absolutely.
And now that team, who also appears to have been granted exclusive rights to running red cars, now wants to have the power to set the rules not just for themselves but also for the other teams.
This is the crux of the matter IMHO.
Costs in F1 must become more realistic. I think everyone agrees with this.
The question is HOW!
It would be great to have teams competing to race in F1 again. Teams that don't need to spend the equilivant of a small nations GDP in order to put a car on the grid.
It would be superb to have independants competing on an equal basis with the multinational car giants.
However, budget caps are not a way to achieve this. All teams that can afford to will find ways around the budget and you will end up with 3 Championships; the WDC, WCC and WAC (World Accountancy Championship).
But, in principal, it's a good idea. The reality is that budget caps allows Max to control the series and penalise those he doesn't favour to manipulate the championship.
Then we have FOTA on the other side of the coin and Ferrari pulling the strings. They will want to maintain their exclusive position which has allowed them to be favoured over the years. FOTA must not be allowed to dictate the championship and regulations otherwise F1 will dissapear up it's own backside (even further than it has done already).
There must be middle ground but it looks like FOTA will crumble and F1 will descent into bickering farce.
Some of the FOTA recommendations make sense and should be considered. The budget cap needs to be abandoned and if so, we could get out of this mess.
Somehow I doubt it.
Hondo
5th June 2009, 13:37
Thunderbolt, thats what the drivers say now. All the books to come are going to show will be F1 wins and championships. There will be no flags to explain that F1 had regressed to a man sitting in a wheelchair while someone else pushed him and made motor noises. Older drivers, still hoping for that 20** F1 World Champion after their name will stay with F1. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see some past drivers try to come back.
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/sport/regulations/Pages/InternationalSportingCodeA.aspx
Interesting isn't it?
Maybe we should all just pool up and hire a hit man...
They are making their own rules as they see fit and they expect everyone to bow to them, on what grounds if I might ask?!
Since when does FIA think that they can rule in everyone's back yard?!
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 13:43
Thunderbolt, thats what the drivers say now. All the books to come are going to show will be F1 wins and championships. There will be no flags to explain that F1 had regressed to a man sitting in a wheelchair while someone else pushed him and made motor noises. Older drivers, still hoping for that 20** F1 World Champion after their name will stay with F1. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see some past drivers try to come back.
Lets create a record for the amount of times "Jacques's back" can be mentioned in different threads :D
Absolutely.
And now that team, who also appears to have been granted exclusive rights to running red cars, now wants to have the power to set the rules not just for themselves but also for the other teams.
Excuse the expression but that's bull sh!t, and I suppose you won't be able to back that affirmation up with any proof.
Meanwhile the FOTA only takes decision on a 100% agreement basis, I fail to see how that means that Ferrari controls everything.
Fancy a holiday, ioan?
No thanks, I'll programed mine for August.
Costs in F1 must become more realistic. I think everyone agrees with this.
The question is HOW!
It would be great to have teams competing to race in F1 again. Teams that don't need to spend the equilivant of a small nations GDP in order to put a car on the grid.
It would be superb to have independants competing on an equal basis with the multinational car giants.
However, budget caps are not a way to achieve this. All teams that can afford to will find ways around the budget and you will end up with 3 Championships; the WDC, WCC and WAC (World Accountancy Championship).
Budget caps may not be the best way ... but how should one reconcile the red team's $400M+/year with an independent team spending $50-100M/year (still serious money in my books!) and giving the latter a way to compete, and maybe win if they do some clever engineering and pick the right young driver.
The optional cap the FIA suggested is one way to do it, allowing teams to escape the audits and the scrutiny. However, the difference in rules between the cap and non-cap teams was rather massive; maybe with a more modest difference it could actually work.
Otherwise ... people complain about the new rules being like GP2, but actually they give the cost-capped teams more technical freedom than the 2009 rules. Today we already have a spec tyre and frozen engine development; further cost savings without budget caps would require greater and greater percentage of spec components.
Then there is the customer car option, making the smaller teams (like Toro Rosso or Super Aguri, really) just teams and not constructors, and making it challenging for them to beat the works teams, although they might be able to be respectable. But most teams enter F1 with the dream of eventually being able to win ...
Or is there another way that I'm just not seeing?
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 14:07
Budget caps may not be the best way ... but how should one reconcile the red team's $400M+/year with an independent team spending $50-100M/year (still serious money in my books!) and giving the latter a way to compete, and maybe win if they do some clever engineering and pick the right young driver.
The optional cap the FIA suggested is one way to do it, allowing teams to escape the audits and the scrutiny. However, the difference in rules between the cap and non-cap teams was rather massive; maybe with a more modest difference it could actually work.
Otherwise ... people complain about the new rules being like GP2, but actually they give the cost-capped teams more technical freedom than the 2009 rules. Today we already have a spec tyre and frozen engine development; further cost savings without budget caps would require greater and greater percentage of spec components.
Or is there a third way that I'm just not seeing?
I agree with you and don't profess to have all the answers, like some ;)
I just don't think a budget cap will work. It demands abuse and I don't trust Max to use the regulations to selectivly penalise teams and drivers as he wants for something all the teams will be doing if they can afford to.
That will turn F1 into WWF
I agree with you and don't profess to have all the answers, like some ;)
Hmmm, I can't imagine who you might be talking about! :rolleyes:
maximilian
5th June 2009, 14:49
That will turn F1 into WWF
The World Wildlife Fund? Oh, that would be wonderful! :D
Just teasin ya. I was always happy that WWE LOST their lawsuit against the WWF. :)
Budget caps may not be the best way ... but how should one reconcile the red team's $400M+/year with an independent team spending $50-100M/year (still serious money in my books!) and giving the latter a way to compete, and maybe win if they do some clever engineering and pick the right young driver.
By keeping the rules steady for at least 5 years.
In the first season we might have a surprise poorer winner who got everything right, or the richer teams will have got it right first, it's 50-50.
Than everything will start to even out and after about 3 seasons everyone will have hit a development level where spending much more will be useless, and will give at least 2 years of level playing field.
Not to mention that all the teams want to cut costs right now.
PS: Pointing out Ferrari as a rich team, while Toyota and McLaren have been spending as much or more lately it's a very biased move.
I have noticed that quite a fair amount of people are quite anti-manufacturer, and would happily see them leaving. This is a view I don't quite share by myself. Let me explain.
People say that the participation of manufacturers is very uncertain, while "garagistes" are there to race endlessly. Well, let's take teams like Toyota and Renault, who are rumoured to leave more than others. This is their 8th (!) season in F1 in a row, so they have already contributed quite a lot - and their participation has been more consistent than many of the privateers, who have disappeared after a few years due to financial difficulties or have kept changing ownership (Arrows/Footwork, March/Leyton House, recent mess with post-Jordan, etc). It's not like a manufacturer came in for like 2 years and then left again - I wouldn't like such scenario by myself either. But racing for a decade shows already quite a lot of commitment, something even many so-called privateers don't possess.
I'm telling you, the participation of those unknown privateers is a lot more uncertain. When Toyota announced they will join F1 in 1999, it was clear and widely known for a couple of years that they will definetely join F1 for sure - unlike current privateers, about who we are still uncertain about with just about half a year to go - and who demand "certain rules" (budget caps and like that) to start racing at all.
Secondly, to say that a 'manufacturer' is there not to race, isn't completely true. Let's take TTE (Toyota Team Europe), which does exist to race and which has existed for decades already. If Toyota leaves F1, they would most likely join Le Mans (like has been rumoured a lot), but they would keep racing, it's just the matter of the choice of series. It's not extremely different from the likes of Lola, who also constructs cars for different series - and now thinks that maybe it's time to try their hand in F1 (and don't be so sure they would stay there "forever" unlike manufacturers). The main difference is that TTE has got a manufacturer support.
Having said all that, I have got nothing against pure privateers and I would welcome them in F1 warmly, if they can guarantee a longer future and can construct at least a remotely-competitive machinery, and not like enterprises like Simtek, Pacific, etc, who contributed zilch and disappeared quickly. But to say (like some do) that manufacturers are bad for F1 and should make room for all kinds of (including hopeless) privateers, isn't quite true. Manufacturers are a natural part of the history Grand Prix Racing and there is no reason we should get rid of them. Think about the likes of Auto Union, Daimler-Benz and Alfa Romeo. At that time it was all about manufacturers, but some call it a golden era of motor-racing.
In the past whenever I have heard about a manufacturer joining F1, I personally have been quite excited. Because unlike (most of) the privateers, manufacturers join F1 with a very strong financial backing. And with a strong background, they possess pretty good chances of actually achieving something in F1 and hence creating tighter competition, which I think most F1 fans want to see - and this is the outlook that has appealed me too. If most of the teams were unknown privateers, you really think all teams would be within 1,5 secs per lap? For example when Renault took over Benetton, I found it positive, because Benetton had been sinking for many years and seemed to be going nowhere, while with Renault there was hope they would start getting somewhere again. Or when BMW decided to join forces with Sauber, I took it fondly, because finally a clear possibility arose that the ever-lasting midfielder of Sauber would finally have a clear chance of moving upwards.
Of course with budget caps situation could/would pan out differently and financial issue wouldn't matter so much.
I have noticed that quite a fair amount of people are quite anti-manufacturer, and would happily see them leaving.
(eloquent explanation snipped)
I think it's more the case that many people would like to enable privateer teams to compete as well, and not rely exclusively on manufacturers. For most of the 60 years that F1 has existed, there has been a strong privateer entry combined with some manufacturers; it is only recently that the manufacturers have dominated the series.
Knock-on
5th June 2009, 15:46
I think it's more the case that many people would like to enable privateer teams to compete as well, and not rely exclusively on manufacturers. For most of the 60 years that F1 has existed, there has been a strong privateer entry combined with some manufacturers; it is only recently that the manufacturers have dominated the series.
Totally agree.
We have always had Manufacturers and Privateers and long may it continue.
The only problem at the moment is that the cost of F1 prohibits the "Cheepo" teams from competing. Force India for example spend a small fortune to mop up the back of the grid. Any other series, they would blitz it.
Lets have a grid of 26 cars where the technology defers to innovative thinking and the electronics play 2nd fiddle to the drivers skill.
Crazy eh?
Sleeper
5th June 2009, 15:51
Secondly, to say that a 'manufacturer' is there not to race, isn't completely true. Let's take TTE (Toyota Team Europe), which does exist to race and which has existed for decades already. If Toyota leaves F1, they would most likely join Le Mans (like has been rumoured a lot), but they would keep racing, it's just the matter of the choice of series. It's not extremely different from the likes of Lola, who also constructs cars for different series - and now thinks that maybe it's time to try their hand in F1 (and don't be so sure they would stay there "forever" unlike manufacturers). The main difference is that TTE has got a manufacturer support.
TTE dont make for a good example because they started out as Ove Anderson Racing, a priviteer running Toyotas in rallying. Toyota bought them out when they decided they would make a good platform to contest WRC then Le Mans in the mid 90's, since then the reson for its existence has changed. Before them Sard Racing were Toyota's team of choice for motorsport. To a manufacturer motorsport is an excerse in high speed marketing, and they will only stay in racing if they find it beneficial. Peugeot and Ford are also good indicators that manufacturers will not always be fully prepared when they enter the sport, Pugs run in the 90's was half arsed at best and Ford have always been considered "a doller short, a doller late". Private teams will compete as long as they have half a chance of doing so and work hard to get the money.
Personally, the sport needs a mix of both to remain properly healthy.
Totally agree.
We have always had Manufacturers and Privateers and long may it continue.
The only problem at the moment is that the cost of F1 prohibits the "Cheepo" teams from competing. Force India for example spend a small fortune to mop up the back of the grid. Any other series, they would blitz it.
Lets have a grid of 26 cars where the technology defers to innovative thinking and the electronics play 2nd fiddle to the drivers skill.
Crazy eh?
A shocking suggestion! Totally unacceptable! :eek: :rolleyes: :eek:
Incidentally, the current Force India and Toro Rosso budgets of about $120M match pretty well to the proposed £40M budget cap -- Joan Villadelprat's estimate was that once you add marketing, driver salaries and other "outside the cap" expendityres, the total budget will end up at around £75M ...
Super Aguri ran for much less than that, but then they basically used Honda hand-me-down chassis and engines, and did no testing.
I think it's more the case that many people would like to enable privateer teams to compete as well, and not rely exclusively on manufacturers. For most of the 60 years that F1 has existed, there has been a strong privateer entry combined with some manufacturers; it is only recently that the manufacturers have dominated the series.
Fair enough, although I have noticed suggestions of getting a total privateer-grid as well. In the 50's and turbo-era manufacturers had a lot of influence in the sport too though.
---
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75832
FOTA starting to crumble? Will Max really win this battle as well? Although I think for Force India a budget-capped F1 would have been more beneficial anyway, hence it has been slightly surprising to see them going together with FOTA so far.
veeten
5th June 2009, 16:42
It's official...
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75843
The operative phrase in his statement, 'Contractural Obligations', is what will be the doorway for others to ditch FOTA's stand and apply for the '10 F1 season.
"Following a day of speculation about whether Force India would stand firm in its alliance with FOTA's conditional block-entry to next year's championship, the outfit announced in Turkey that it had been forced because of 'commercial obligations' to go it alone and review its conditional application"
And this is a team which is funded by it's owner, so it can be assumed he was the "commercial obligation" in question.
So, when the sponsors like Vodafone, Banco Santander and the like also realise that no entry to F1 means no Monaco and no F1 brand image to benefit from, where are they going to tell their teams they want to be?
Renault are currently looking for a title sponsor for next year, and I would like to see how they are currently going to get one based on a "conditional" entry.....because I don't believe any potential title sponsor would be in the least bit interested in a team that won't commit itself to a series.
Commercial obligations is what will force the issue and what will cause FOTA to lose members....it's already happening.
Bagwan
5th June 2009, 19:55
Williams signed something that said they had to sign on to the new rules , so they did .
Force India also signed something that said they had to sign .
The difference is that Williams did not sign with conditions in the FOTA group as well .
Vijay is said to be firmly behind FOTA , and the conditional entry .
Ferrari are said to already be obligated to be there , but if the veto is not valid , and it appears to be so , as Ferrari are spearheading the group , then the obligation is likely invalid as well .
If the obligation is valid , then so is the veto , and the new rules are invalid , as the current rules are what Ferrari wants .
But the current rules are not what is signed with the new teams .
Can you hear the rumbling of the lawyer stampede yet ?
Ferrari are said to already be obligated to be there , but if the veto is not valid , and it appears to be so , as Ferrari are spearheading the group , then the obligation is likely invalid as well.
Most commercial contracts can be terminated for breach of contract (the other party violated the terms) but that normally requires formal notification, and the other party has an opportunity to correct the breach -- the contract doesn't just automatically evaporate if someone doesn't abide by it.
Of course I haven't seen this particular contract so I don't know what each party's rights and and obligations are, nor what the termination procedure is. (If it contains a veto right, it likely contains specific veto procedures, too, and the most important question may be whether those were followed.)
Triumph
5th June 2009, 22:37
I can't help thinking that Max Mosley is prepared to cause as much damage as possible over this conflict.
I think he has a lot of pent-up anger for various reasons and to do a lot of damage to the sport will have a cathartic effect for him. If that doesn't happen and all the teams fall into line then he has won the conflict, which will of course have the same effect.
I can identify fully with this approach, so I can't really muster any anger over the situation. I would prefer it if F1 carried on as planned and that there is no break-away series though.
wmcot
6th June 2009, 07:17
I think that there a two possible outcomes to this:
1. The FOTA teams give into Max's cap (or a compromised amount) and lay off hundreds of employees.
or (more likely)
2. The FOTA manufacturers look at the current financial times and fold up their F1 activities completely. No auto manufacturer's boardroom is going to complain about the savings of millions each year! The grid will be filled with a bunch of rookie teams for a few years until a new pecking order begins and the whole thing begins all over again.
Either way, Max ends up as absolute dictator over a weak, castrated racing series with his powers for evil growing ever stronger. No, I don't believe that the heads of the FOTA teams are angels, but they seem to be less of a threat than a single all-powerful Maxasaurus Rex rampaging through F1 wreaking havoc and terror!
wmcot
6th June 2009, 07:20
By the way, I'll probably still watch F1 if Max gets his way. The intense passion I feel will be gone and it will be a bit like watching IRL or NASCAR for me. Probably something similar to the way I feel watching Formula BMW or the Star Mazda series - interesting, but not overly exciting.
Knock-on
6th June 2009, 10:54
Things will happen as they happen my friend.
F1 will be here, the sport will change and Max and Bernie will get stronger. That's all there is to it.
If you want a consolation, Max-Rex is 69 and likely to turn up his toes before us :)
Most commercial contracts can be terminated for breach of contract (the other party violated the terms) but that normally requires formal notification, and the other party has an opportunity to correct the breach -- the contract doesn't just automatically evaporate if someone doesn't abide by it.
There was a notification, there was even a court hearing and there was no correction of the breach of contract from FIA's part, so we can say that the contract is void.
But there is another side to all this.
Ferrari signed a contract to be in F1 until 2012, they also submitted an entry, a collective one. The ball is now in Mosley's court, if he refuses the collective entry than he refuses the Ferrari entry even though Ferrari submitted one and thus the contract is void again.
Looks to me that for now Ferrari aren't in breach of any contract.
By the way, I'll probably still watch F1 if Max gets his way. The intense passion I feel will be gone and it will be a bit like watching IRL or NASCAR for me. Probably something similar to the way I feel watching Formula BMW or the Star Mazda series - interesting, but not overly exciting.
I won't, the only series I'll continue watching will be ALMS-LMS + Le Mans 24 hours.
There was a notification, there was even a court hearing and there was no correction of the breach of contract from FIA's part, so we can say that the contract is void.
You have seen the contract, have you? Maybe you could scan it and post it so that the rest of us can read it, too?
The court hearing was to determine whether the red team was denied their contractual right to veto, and at least that particular judge decided that they had had the opportunity to use the veto but had not done so.
If you want a consolation, Max-Rex is 69 and likely to turn up his toes before us :)
Alas, that was basically our hope with Balestre ... and we ended up with Mosley.
I think FIA should have a constitutional limit of two terms for the FIA president.
You have seen the contract, have you? Maybe you could scan it and post it so that the rest of us can read it, too?
Why would I? It doesn't look like you would stomach it.
First you say there is a binding contracts and than you do like if there wasn't. Well, this is contradictory.
BTW there is rumor that the manufacturers signed up to an agreement that none of them signs up to the FIA championship as long as their demands are not met, in case anyone brakes it the punishment is a 50 millions fine!
(...) in case anyone brakes it the punishment is a 50 millions fine!
I guess if they go through without braking, they'll all miss the turn and end up in the gravel trap ...
I guess if they go through without braking, they'll all miss the turn and end up in the gravel trap ...
Still better than accepting dictatorship from a failed politician.
Brawn will stick with FOTA:
"I understand Frank's position, Frank had contractual agreements with Bernie and the FIA which we don't have, so he had some difficulty in that respect," said Brawn about the impact of the Williams entry.
"But the existence of this team was dependent on the support of FOTA teams - McLaren and Mercedes in particular are the reason why we are here, and I think the FOTA initiatives are good.
"We seem to have had a disconnection in terms of liaising and negotiating with the FIA, and that has perhaps been the problem because FOTA has got a lot of good ideas and the FIA has got a lot of good ideas. Hopefully those ideas will be brought together to find a solution.
"We seem to have disconnected somehow in this process and what we need to do is reconnect, and I feel that I want to be part of FOTA. It is a good initiative and I feel I can help more towards finding a solution being a member of FOTA than I can stepping out of it, so I intend to remain within FOTA."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75901
And now:
Grand Prix drivers pledged their support for the stance adopted by the Formula One Teams' Association (FOTA) following talks to discuss the current row in Istanbul on Sunday morning.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75910
So next year we might have Rosberg, Nakajima, Fisichella and Sutil + lots of anonymous drivers in F1 if Maxie doesn't brighten up.
I wonder what is the fan base of these 4 drivers together? 2% of the whole F1 fans maybe?!
Garry Walker
8th June 2009, 12:55
And now:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75910
So next year we might have Rosberg, Nakajima, Fisichella and Sutil + lots of anonymous drivers in F1 if Maxie doesn't brighten up.
I wonder what is the fan base of these 4 drivers together? 2% of the whole F1 fans maybe?!
i doubt it is that much.
i doubt it is that much.
It was just a wild guess, but honestly 1% or 2% or even if t was to be 5% it still means that CVC will go bankrupt! :D
Garry Walker
8th June 2009, 13:31
It was just a wild guess, but honestly 1% or 2% or even if t was to be 5% it still means that CVC will go bankrupt! :D
That would be VERY enjoyable.
That would be VERY enjoyable.
However I suppose that the CVC and Bernie would rather throw Max to the dogs than letting that happen.
ArrowsFA1
8th June 2009, 18:53
The solution is simple says Max:
"...the simplest way to ensure that all entrants run under the same rules would be if everyone entered under the cost-cap rules as published and then all entrants cooperated to agree modifications to those rules which would make the proposition workable for all parties."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75961
Perfectly reasonable on the face of it. Except that if the teams sign up to Max's "rules as published" by entering the 2010 championship they are bound by those rules, and of course once they've all signed up why should Max need to change his rules?
FOTA have already requested (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75610) "that next year's regulations are scrapped if they are to commit their future to the sport" so why would they now sign up to the 2010 regs in the light of Max's "simple" solution?
Max's rules are not the solution to F1's problems, they are the problem.
Max's rules are not the solution to F1's problems, they are the problem.
Really?
Honda didn't leave because of 'rules', they left because F1 was an unsubstainable cost.
The problem with F1 at present is that, depending on the boardroom decisions of manufacturers, there could be two or three 'Honda' scenarios this winter, and nobody could afford to replace them at the current levels of expenditure.
Just because you always blame Mosley doesn't mean he is the problem.
Really?
Honda didn't leave because of 'rules', they left because F1 was an unsubstainable cost.
Tam, I usually agree with you against Arrows, but this is BS.
Honda left after they poured the biggest sum ever into an F1 car and they are continuing to support BrawnGP financially, and it was because of the need to keep a straight face when they laid of people, not because they couldn't afford it anymore.
Let's not mix things.
Also going from 300 or 400 millions to 40 millions/years is not workable.
On top of that, this crisis isn't only about the budget cap, this is only a minor part of it.
Take a look at the rules as they were proposed by the FIA back in April and you'll see that those rules say that in the future the FIA can change whatever they want (on technical, sporting and commercial side) without needing to ask the teams as long as the WMSC agrees!
This war is about the teams wanting to have the rights they deserve in a series where they do all the hard work, where they are the only ones investing in it!
And it's also about wanting more money from the commercial rights holder.
The solution is simple says Max:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75961
Perfectly reasonable on the face of it. Except that if the teams sign up to Max's "rules as published" by entering the 2010 championship they are bound by those rules, and of course once they've all signed up why should Max need to change his rules?
FOTA have already requested (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75610) "that next year's regulations are scrapped if they are to commit their future to the sport" so why would they now sign up to the 2010 regs in the light of Max's "simple" solution?
Max's rules are not the solution to F1's problems, they are the problem.
So basically Max doesn't want to give up on his stupid rules. Good, let's hope the teams don't sign up and as a result we get rid of Max and maybe Bernie too.
Tam, I usually agree with you against Arrows, but this is BS.
Honda left after they poured the biggest sum ever into an F1 car and they are continuing to support BrawnGP financially, and it was because of the need to keep a straight face when they laid of people, not because they couldn't afford it anymore.
I meant "unsubstainable" as in they couldn't be seen to be spending the money, not that they didn't have it.
Also going from 300 or 400 millions to 40 millions/years is not workable.
It is when the alternative is 400million to zero, on account of the manufacturer pulling the plug on its F1 programme.
Lemmy-Boy
8th June 2009, 21:28
If FOTA leaves , I will follow them to Mosport , Kylami , Montreal , Argentina , Watkin's Glen , and all those other iconic F1 tracks that made F1 what I remember .
It's just a little ironic that thoughts of a new series elicit thoughts of the old F1 .
And , doubly so , if one thinks about it , because it is that fact that makes it , in my mind , viable .
If FOTA is indeed serious about leaving , the phones at all of those dumped tracks should be ringing as I write this , and proposals should be on the table already for the alternative series .
Max has said they should leave , and that should be what they are looking into .
Perhaps you need a history lesson. Do you remember the big American Open Wheel War? CART vs IRL (1996-2007)? During the mid-1990's CART was becoming the North American version of F1. CART had the drivers, teams and manufacturer backing (seems like FOTA eh?). Unfortunately after 10+ years, the war brought AOWR to its knees.
Since reunification, it's now a shadow of its former glory and lost ground to the NASCAR juggernaut. The IRL continues to lose money and teams. Even worse, the IRL is relegated to a TV network where no one watches. More people watch Monster Truck races on TV than the IRL.
If FOTA wants to step into a similar war with FIA, the economic implications will be 1000 times worse!. Like the IRL and the INDY 500, FIA has the circuits (Monaco), history and prestige that FOTA can't emulate. As a big time fan of CART during their glory days, this is something you can't replace right away.
FOTA will suffer a similar fate. Like what happened in CART, one by one, the teams and manufacturers will crawl back to the FIA. Williams and Force India are the first to jump back. The rest will come back to the FIA sooner or later.
I hope FOTA falls flat on their ass. They're the reason why F1 budgets are so astronomical in the first place. It's unsustainable. There is a breaking point and the time has finally arrived to bring budgets back to reality, while retaining the cutting edge feel of F1.
It is when the alternative is 400million to zero, on account of the manufacturer pulling the plug on its F1 programme.
FOTA teams said they are ready to commit to F1 until 2014 under the right conditions, it looks to me that they are not thinking about pulling the plug.
Perhaps you need a history lesson. Do you remember the big American Open Wheel War? CART vs IRL (1996-2007)? During the mid-1990's CART was becoming the North American version of F1. CART had the drivers, teams and manufacturer backing (seems like FOTA eh?). Unfortunately after 10+ years, the war brought AOWR to its knees.
There is a difference, in the US open wheel racing there was a split within the series, in F1 we are dealing with the teams leaving the series, there will be no competition for the FOTA teams from the part of the no name wannabees.
Lemmy-Boy
9th June 2009, 05:27
There is a difference, in the US open wheel racing there was a split within the series, in F1 we are dealing with the teams leaving the series, there will be no competition for the FOTA teams from the part of the no name wannabees.
There is no difference! If a split does occur with FOTA & FIA, it will be history repeating itself all over again (IRL vs CART). Whether you like it or not the competitionwill come from Williams, Pro-drive(?), Force India & no-name teams.
You're carrying the same attitude CART (1996) had in the past. Back in 1996, all the top teams from CART (Penske, Newman-Haas, Ganassi Racing, Rahal Racing, Patrick Racing, PacWest Racing, Walker Racing, Hogan Racing) were united against the IRL. Only the bottom feeder & mid-level teams ( Foyt, Hemelgarn Racing and no-name teams) went to the IRL on a full-time basis. Despite the disparity in teams, the competition remained fierce and hostile for over a decade!
But who won in the end? The IRL but at a big cost.
Back in 1996, CART also had the big MANUFACTURERS funneling money into the series (Mercedes, Honda, Ford & Toyota). But through time, sponsorship pressure, political bickering & mismanagement within CART, a majority of the teams and manufacturers slowly went back to the IRL.
You can't easily replace prestige and history with Motorsport. Just like how you can't replace the US 500 (96-99) with the Indy 500. Or the Monaco Grand Prix with some no-name race in southern France.
The only real losers in a split are fans. It happened with AOWR and can happen with F1 if split becomes a reality.
not sure if this would work
FOTA In Talks Over Breakaway Series
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/33751/f1-fota-in-talks-over-breakaway-series/
THE FORMULA ONE TEAMS ASSOCIATION has reportedly commenced discussions with MotoGP organisers Dorna over the prospect of launching a breakaway Grand Prix series.
Spanish newspaper AS has reported that the teams are looking to lay the foundations for a rival championship if FIA President Max Mosley refuses to back down on his demand the teams submit an unconditional entry for 2010.
Dorna Chief Executive Officer Carmelo Ezpeleta is said to be interested in FOTA’s proposal, leaving the future of Formula 1 in a perilous state.
ArrowsFA1
9th June 2009, 08:43
Really?...Just because you always blame Mosley doesn't mean he is the problem.
Yes really. Max's F1 rules are the issue. The teams formed FOTA because they oppose Max's budget capped, two tier championship, and those FOTA teams include those that, it is claimed, are at risk of a "Honda scenario".
I think we'd all welcome new teams into the sport but who was it who imposed the requirement of a $m's "bond" before any team could enter? Who was it who encouraged manufacturers into the sport with the inevitable increase in costs, so further discouraging 'independent' teams, with no attempts then by the FIA to restrict that spending? Who was it who insisted on the introduction of KERS?
Costs have risen in F1 through a combination of the FIA's govenance, and the teams willingness to spend in order to get results, and there is general agreement that costs need to be reduced. That aim will not be achieved by a unilateral imposition of rules that only Max and his supporters seem to think are the answer.
Bagwan
9th June 2009, 12:42
Perhaps you need a history lesson. Do you remember the big American Open Wheel War? CART vs IRL (1996-2007)? During the mid-1990's CART was becoming the North American version of F1. CART had the drivers, teams and manufacturer backing (seems like FOTA eh?). Unfortunately after 10+ years, the war brought AOWR to its knees.
Since reunification, it's now a shadow of its former glory and lost ground to the NASCAR juggernaut. The IRL continues to lose money and teams. Even worse, the IRL is relegated to a TV network where no one watches. More people watch Monster Truck races on TV than the IRL.
If FOTA wants to step into a similar war with FIA, the economic implications will be 1000 times worse!. Like the IRL and the INDY 500, FIA has the circuits (Monaco), history and prestige that FOTA can't emulate. As a big time fan of CART during their glory days, this is something you can't replace right away.
FOTA will suffer a similar fate. Like what happened in CART, one by one, the teams and manufacturers will crawl back to the FIA. Williams and Force India are the first to jump back. The rest will come back to the FIA sooner or later.
I hope FOTA falls flat on their ass. They're the reason why F1 budgets are so astronomical in the first place. It's unsustainable. There is a breaking point and the time has finally arrived to bring budgets back to reality, while retaining the cutting edge feel of F1.
Opportunity , Lemmy-boy .
That's what the CART/IRL split brought to F1 .
Think about it .
Those 2 series are shadows , and there is a big gap for Formula FOTA in N.A. .
That aim will not be achieved by a unilateral imposition of rules that only Max and his supporters seem to think are the answer.
Nor will it be achieved by a bunch of vested-interest team owners dragging their feet.
Bagwan
9th June 2009, 16:23
Nor will it be achieved by a bunch of vested-interest team owners dragging their feet.
We do know that Max's way of governance is bit over the top , though , don't we ?
What do you think should happen ?
Should they sign , trusting Max will , in fact find a compromise that keeps everyone happy ? He hasn't done so well lately on that .
I've read that there has been contact with the group that runs MotoGP , about setting up a different series .
I am not so sure that you're not over-stating the power that the teams actually want here .
Nor will it be achieved by a bunch of vested-interest team owners dragging their feet.
Now, that's ignoring the realities of human nature.
Do you prefer to live in a dictatorship where one man hold the absolute power?
Or do you prefer a democracy, which isn't perfect, but several people hold the power and somehow equilibrating each other?
I lived in a dictatorship and I can tell you that there is no question about my choice.
veeten
9th June 2009, 17:58
CART was a cross between a Democracy and an Oligarcy... and look how well that turned out. :s
CART was a cross between a Democracy and an Oligarcy... and look how well that turned out. :s
You're free to emigrate to Cuba, North Korea, Belarus, Zimbabwe etc. :wave:
Do you prefer to live in a dictatorship where one man hold the absolute power?
Or do you prefer a democracy, which isn't perfect, but several people hold the power and somehow equilibrating each other?
I lived in a dictatorship and I can tell you that there is no question about my choice.
In business, as in team management, I would go for the dictatorship.
Motorsport by commitee does not work.
Bagwan
9th June 2009, 19:34
In business, as in team management, I would go for the dictatorship.
Motorsport by commitee does not work.
Are they asking to rule motorsport ? I don't think so .
They are asking for more stable rules , to control expense .
That they wish to dispense with KERS , a knee-jerk response to green criticism , is proof enough that they can agree on fundamentals that really are important to the show continuing .
Some teams have spent millions , yet FOTA is one-voiced on the matter .
They have also sought help with organization .
This shows clearly that they want someone else in charge , but want to dictate en masse the cars to race .
They simply have decided as a group that Formula One is not viable as portrayed by the FIA .
All have said publicly that they want to race in F1 as it is , but not as the rules are written for next year .
If the F1 rights holder wishes to have these teams in F1 next year , he needs to make it attractive .
In business, as in team management, I would go for the dictatorship.
Motorsport by commitee does not work.
Dictatorship in sport is as bad as dictatorship everywhere because people will not be happy in what they are doing and thus they will not do it right.
There are rumors in the german press that the FOTA has been looking into having their own series for several month already.
They already had contacts with the F1 broadcasters and several tracks too and the deal is more than welcome by these because the costs are going to be at least 40% less than with Bernie's series!
It is also rumored that the FOTA already answered Mosley's last letter.
wmcot
10th June 2009, 07:01
Please don't think I am anti-semitic, but I can't think of a better comparison to Max's response than saying he is like a concentration camp commandant inviting the prisoners to "have a shower, then we'll talk."
ArrowsFA1
10th June 2009, 07:58
Black Flag at the Ready for Max and Bernie's Gravy Train
On Friday the president of the FIA is due to announce the runners and riders for the 2010 season but any such list is unlikely to be worth the paper it is printed on. Like all sports formula one is about the competitors not the administrators. And if the competitors can keep their nerve as the power struggle reaches its climax, the black flag may soon be hanging out for this particular set of administrators.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jun/09/bernie-ecclestone-silverstone-turkish-grand-prix-contrast
52Paddy
10th June 2009, 08:57
Black Flag at the Ready for Max and Bernie's Gravy Train
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/blog/2009/jun/09/bernie-ecclestone-silverstone-turkish-grand-prix-contrast
I'm excited!
Hondo
10th June 2009, 12:13
I sense a "delay" from the FIA in announcing the selected teams, or, that some of the selected entries (new teams) are "conditional" themselves.
Lotta "ifs" here but it wouldn't hurt my feelings if a break away series elected to run on the same tracks 2 or 3 times over the course of the season for a year or two if that would help the economics and help to showcase the product.
Roamy
10th June 2009, 16:47
this is soooooooo simple to resolve.
All of the good f1 teams should move to a1gp
run two car teams
bernie and max to to hell
FOTA then resumes
Sarah
10th June 2009, 16:58
Bernie speaking his mind again in the Express today.
http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/106531/Bernie-s-warning-to-warring-teams
jens
10th June 2009, 17:36
Well, I'm praying that FOTA is capable of forming it's own championship as I'm tired of Max' and Bernie's dictatorship.
Considering, how adamant and self-confident Max and Bernie have seemed so far, it makes me think that the main basis for their actions is their belief that FOTA is unable to form it's own series, let alone a better one, which would put F1 into shade - and hence they are trying to pressure the teams as long as they inevitably have to crumble. I suspect their belief might derive from the history and their own experience. Recall the FISA vs FOCA wars in the early 80's, when MM & BE were at the side of the teams. At that time a breakaway series was in the air for some time too, but it never materialized. Maybe MM & BE believe in their historical experience and don't believe current FOTA can pull it off. Will the whole situation pan out differently this time?
tintop
10th June 2009, 19:22
I think that the economic and technological barriers to entry combined with the concentration of power in a half dozen or so manufacturers tips the scales in FOTA's favor.
Luckily, B&M have also encouraged the construction of a number of superfluous tracks that they can continue to run around in silence, whilst Fota can avail themselves to any number of quality orphaned tracks in Europe and NA.
gloomyDAY
11th June 2009, 06:18
I'm fed up with this crap.
wmcot
11th June 2009, 06:58
I won't be happy until Max and Bernie are turning into compost in someone's garden! ;)
(The fact that these two old geezers are still around disproves Ferrari's ties to the Mafia.)
ArrowsFA1
11th June 2009, 08:11
Damon Hill has expressed the view shared by many:
"You only have to look over the pond to see what happens when you split a championship. It's difficult enough to draw people into one particular sport, so what will they make of two separate championships? It would just dilute it."
"The last few years have been really appalling and lots of people have asked questions about the administration of the sport. That's what the issue is all about."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75991
You'd think that Damon would have a better grasp of history....
http://www.forix.com/8w/fiasco-introduction-timeline.html
As should those who think Ferrari's current actions will automatically be successful...
http://petrolheadblog.com/ferrari-taking-their-ball-home-again-it-doesnt-always-work/
There have always been politics and divsions within motorsport....those who think its worse now are both wishful, naive and evidently without the ability to remember anything beyond the latest headline.
ArrowsFA1
12th June 2009, 08:57
You'd think that Damon would have a better grasp of history....
An interesting read :up: but it doesn't alter Damon Hill's points that a split would not be good for anyone, and there are questions about the administration of the sport that are yet to be resolved.
As should those who think Ferrari's current actions will automatically be successful...
I'm not sure anyone assumes anything of the sort. Who knows how things will work out. Maybe we'll have a better idea after today.
There have always been politics and divsions within motorsport....those who think its worse now are both wishful, naive and evidently without the ability to remember anything beyond the latest headline.
Who cares whether it's worse (or better!) than before? What matters is what is happening in F1 now.
jens
12th June 2009, 17:37
Politics have often taken centre stage in the sport over the years, but over the last two and a half seasons it seems to be more obvious. A mixture of bad steward decisions and FIA declarations have caused more headlines than the racing itself. It really shouldn't be this way IMO, and changing the rules every season to mould a championship to suit one individuals ideals needs to stop. Its getting very boring :o
Boring? It is getting more exciting each day (well, the cabinet-wars of course). :D
I've to say that currently I'm way more interested in F1 politics than in F1 racing, where nothing much happens anyway and Button has already pretty much clinched the title. Tells a lot about the general situation of F1...
Boring? It is getting more exciting each day (well, the cabinet-wars of course). :D
I've to say that currently I'm way more interested in F1 politics than in F1 racing, where nothing much happens anyway and Button has already pretty much clinched the title. Tells a lot about the general situation of F1...
Jens, I totally agree. If there was any major things happening on the track, then they would be headlines....but there aren't. There isn't any tension in the championship battle, that's for sure.
Now, if only Lewis would let somebody past him under yellows.....
Who cares whether it's worse (or better!) than before?
Who cares? Those of us with a sense of perspective.
What matters is what is happening in F1 now.
Which the French have a phrase for.....'Plus ca change'
BDunnell
12th June 2009, 19:37
Which the French have a phrase for.....'Plus ca change'
I agree, but if a split does occur, the current dispute will surely prove to be far more serious than anything that has gone before. Let's see what happens before accusing others of not having a sense of historical perspective.
ArrowsFA1
13th June 2009, 13:51
I agree, but if a split does occur, the current dispute will surely prove to be far more serious than anything that has gone before. Let's see what happens before accusing others of not having a sense of historical perspective.
Absolutely :up:
Max & Bernie may, from their perspective of the FISA/FOCA 'war', remember that their threat of a breakaway series then was an empty threat, and this may drive their belief that such a thing could not happen this time around. They will, ultimately, be proved right or wrong but whether what we are seeing at the moment is worse or better than before is irrelevant. How this all ends is what matters for those of us who care about F1.
gloomyDAY
13th June 2009, 16:18
I agree, but if a split does occur, the current dispute will surely prove to be far more serious than anything that has gone before. Let's see what happens before accusing others of not having a sense of historical perspective.I think FOTA are serious.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76127
Their leader has spoken...
jens
13th June 2009, 16:29
So the message has by now been pretty clearly expressed by both FOTA and ACEA: Max has to step down or they'll leave. Hopefully they will keep their word. ;)
How this all ends is what matters for those of us who care about F1.
I'll give you a clue....it will never end.
Whatever 'happens' it will still be the same bickering, posturing, muscle-flexing power battle continuing no matter who or what the sanctioning body is.
Some players will have lost and exited the game, but there will never be peace.
It's not in the nature of the beast.
woody2goody
13th June 2009, 21:44
I know it's from a few days ago now, but Heidfeld and Alonso's comments about the teams who would replace the current ones indicate just how far up the manufacturers' arses even the drivers are now.
I don't see why Brawn won't side with the FIA, as they will most likely be champions this year, and I reckon they would rather keep the prestige next year of defending their titles (if they do win them that is).
The manufacturers should just be offered around 75 million as a cap for 2010, then move down to 40 or 50 for 2011.
Ferrari could cut Kimi's salary down to 5 mil or so, that's roughly 5 percent of the cut made already on one guy's wages!
Tumbo
14th June 2009, 00:13
The manufacturers should just be offered around 75 million as a cap for 2010, then move down to 40 or 50 for 2011.
Ferrari could cut Kimi's salary down to 5 mil or so, that's roughly 5 percent of the cut made already on one guy's wages!
But aren't driver salaries excluded from the budget cut therefore - even cutting Kimi's salary to nothing would bear no impact on Ferrari's spending
Somebody
14th June 2009, 00:39
The budget cap's a side issue now - their main problems are (1) they get new rules foisted on them willy-nilly, in the way the budget cap itself was introduced, (2) CVC take 50% of F1's revenues for no outlay, while they spend X amount a year for... 47%, wasn't it and (3) they're losing GPs in places they want to sell cars (US, Canada, France, possibly Britain) and getting dragged to GPs in places they couldn't give a stuff about.
Or, more simply, "Maxwell Rufus Mosley and Bernard Charles Ecclestone".
ioan
14th June 2009, 01:00
Yep budget caps were never the real issue, the way this budget cap was trying to imposed on the teams is the problem.
This dictatorship is not welcome by the teams and it has to stop, and for that Max needs to leave and Bernie will have to be more generous with the teams.
Somebody
14th June 2009, 01:22
This dictatorship is not welcome by the teams and it has to stop, and for that...Bernie will have to be more generous with the teams.
Bernie CAN'T be more generous with the teams. CVC are barely keeping up with their billion-dollar loan repayments as it is.
Really, the FIA should ask some very hard questions of Max and the hundred-year lease he virtually gifted Bernie (who proceeded to sell it for orders of magnitude more than he paid. Several changes of hands later, it's owned by CVC and their billion-dollar loan).
i wonder what would happen if Ferrari jump ship to any new series and took the drivers and most of the crew using modified 2009 cars and young drivers for 2010 f1
ioan
14th June 2009, 09:25
Bernie CAN'T be more generous with the teams. CVC are barely keeping up with their billion-dollar loan repayments as it is.
And who's fault is that?! Certainly not the teams' who are doing they job properly.
Oh big surprise, it's Bernie's fault. All that CVC debt is money that went straight into Bernie's pockets and now he wants the teams to help pay for it!
Down with Max and certainly down with the mophead leech!
ioan
14th June 2009, 09:26
i wonder what would happen if Ferrari jump ship to any new series and took the drivers and most of the crew using modified 2009 cars and young drivers for 2010 f1
There's no jumping ship needed, Ferrari are heading the breakaway.
Mjfan12
15th June 2009, 00:09
And who's fault is that?! Certainly not the teams' who are doing they job properly.
Oh big surprise, it's Bernie's fault. All that CVC debt is money that went straight into Bernie's pockets and now he wants the teams to help pay for it!
Down with Max and certainly down with the mophead leech!
I cant stand those two dinosaurs!
Luckily the FIM seems to have less controversial leaders running the show.
Hondo
15th June 2009, 07:02
Here you go
An amusing conspiracy theory or, funny what boredom does to a whimsical mind.
Scenario:
McLaren quits Formula 1 or is sold, with the new management changing the name completely and firing Ron Dennis. Within 24 hours, Ferrari submits an entry to the FIA without conditions. The remaining 6 FOTA teams submit entries to the FIA without conditions. The Fota teams, except McLaren, are accepted for 2010. An additional new team, not the renamed McLaren group, are accepted for 2010. Max compromises and all the teams find a workable solution for 2010. During the course of the 2010 season, Max and the teams work on a solid 5 year agreement geared toward economy and stability while allowing for creativity. The new agreement isn't that wonderful for Bernie, but he can't fight the teams and the FIA. Max stands down once the new agreement is done.
The how and why:
Max hates Ron and what he has accomplished. If the spygate incident of 2007 had put McLaren out of business, Max would have retired. Max cannot die while McLaren lives. It helps that Ron, the father, is "officially" out of the picture but it's not enough. The child, McLaren, must also die for Max to be sure. Max's "final solution", as it were. Cut to the spanking incident. In the course of his lawsuit and behind the scenes investigations, Max has learned that Luca was behind the setup but Luca never intended it to go public. The players in the spanking incident realized they could make more money taking the story to the tabloid media so they double-crossed Luca. Luca wanted the information as insurance in case Max found out the real truth behind spygate. Max found out that the spygate incident was in fact a set-up job on McLaren, orchestrated by Luca to help them through the shakey dream team transition and as a little payback for the moveable floor problem. Thats why, as pre-agreed with Mike and Nigel, all criminal charges would be dropped by Luca after the final FIA verdict against McLaren. So, if McLaren can just be forced all of the way out, Max and Luca can have a little chat amongst themselves during which Luca will see the light and return to the FIA fold.
Cool.
wmcot
15th June 2009, 07:31
Here you go
An amusing conspiracy theory or, funny what boredom does to a whimsical mind.
Scenario:
McLaren quits Formula 1 or is sold, with the new management changing the name completely and firing Ron Dennis. Within 24 hours, Ferrari submits an entry to the FIA without conditions. The remaining 6 FOTA teams submit entries to the FIA without conditions. The Fota teams, except McLaren, are accepted for 2010. An additional new team, not the renamed McLaren group, are accepted for 2010. Max compromises and all the teams find a workable solution for 2010. During the course of the 2010 season, Max and the teams work on a solid 5 year agreement geared toward economy and stability while allowing for creativity. The new agreement isn't that wonderful for Bernie, but he can't fight the teams and the FIA. Max stands down once the new agreement is done.
The how and why:
Max hates Ron and what he has accomplished. If the spygate incident of 2007 had put McLaren out of business, Max would have retired. Max cannot die while McLaren lives. It helps that Ron, the father, is "officially" out of the picture but it's not enough. The child, McLaren, must also die for Max to be sure. Max's "final solution", as it were. Cut to the spanking incident. In the course of his lawsuit and behind the scenes investigations, Max has learned that Luca was behind the setup but Luca never intended it to go public. The players in the spanking incident realized they could make more money taking the story to the tabloid media so they double-crossed Luca. Luca wanted the information as insurance in case Max found out the real truth behind spygate. Max found out that the spygate incident was in fact a set-up job on McLaren, orchestrated by Luca to help them through the shakey dream team transition and as a little payback for the moveable floor problem. Thats why, as pre-agreed with Mike and Nigel, all criminal charges would be dropped by Luca after the final FIA verdict against McLaren. So, if McLaren can just be forced all of the way out, Max and Luca can have a little chat amongst themselves during which Luca will see the light and return to the FIA fold.
Cool.
Actually it seems to me that Max is done with Ron and after Montezemolo and Howett at the moment.
Hondo
15th June 2009, 07:47
Ron can still fool with it from behind the scenes.
52Paddy
15th June 2009, 08:45
Where did this hate from Max towards Ron originate from?
SGWilko
15th June 2009, 12:24
Where did this hate from Max towards Ron originate from?
Ron is an ordinary humble mechanic turned good.
Max was born with a silver (possibly engraved with a swastica) spoon betwixt his butt cheeks.
Max sees Ron as scum.
Ron sees Max for what he really is.
Max does not like it.
The rest is just window dressing.
ShiftingGears
15th June 2009, 13:14
Ron is an ordinary humble mechanic turned good.
Max was born with a silver (possibly engraved with a swastica) spoon betwixt his butt cheeks.
Max sees Ron as scum.
Ron sees Max for what he really is.
Max does not like it.
The rest is just window dressing.
Except it's different when it comes to Ross Brawn, whose background was not exceptionally privledged, but made it in F1 due to his intelligence?
Your reasoning is dreadful.
BeansBeansBeans
15th June 2009, 13:35
It's more likely to be a simple personality clash between two huge egos.
BDunnell
15th June 2009, 14:55
It's more likely to be a simple personality clash between two huge egos.
I'm sure that is exactly the case.
Bagwan
15th June 2009, 15:20
“Last Thursday, the president of the FIA met a delegation from FOTA consisting of Ross Brawn (Brawn GP), Stefano Domenicali (Ferrari), Christian Horner (Red Bull), John Howett (Toyota) and Simone Perillo (FOTA),” the FIA said in a statement.
“The FIA believed it had participated in a very constructive meeting with a large measure of agreement.
“The FIA was therefore astonished to learn that certain FOTA members not present at the meeting have falsely claimed that nothing was agreed and that the meeting had been a waste of time.
“There is clearly an element in FOTA which is determined to prevent any agreement being reached regardless of the damage this may cause to the sport.”
So , that's Brawn , Toyota , Ferrari , and Red Bull that Mosely is saying are being constructive .
That leaves Flavio out .
Mosely is hoping that Flav , in his inimitable style , will lash out and say something that will bring a rift into FOTA .
SGWilko
15th June 2009, 16:23
Except it's different when it comes to Ross Brawn, whose background was not exceptionally privledged, but made it in F1 due to his intelligence?
Your reasoning is dreadful.
Do you know, I could have sworn we were discussing the Max v Ron tiff. Is this a love triangle perchance that includes 'the bear'?
Hondo
15th June 2009, 18:04
I don't know, but I would suspect the rift is about something that happened between them long ago.
52Paddy
15th June 2009, 19:55
I'm surprised to learn that Ron has come from an ordinary humble background. I always found him an arrogant man and one who looks down on others as scum (that was the case with Tommy Byrne, arguably.) Anyway, I know what I need to know. Don't mean to hijack this thread. :)
BeansBeansBeans
15th June 2009, 20:22
I'm surprised to learn that Ron has come from an ordinary humble background. I always found him an arrogant man and one who looks down on others as scum (that was the case with Tommy Byrne, arguably.) Anyway, I know what I need to know. Don't mean to hijack this thread. :)
I don't think he saw Tommy Byrne as scum. He just realised that he wasn't a 'McLaren driver'. It was the same with Jan Magnussen.
AndyRAC
15th June 2009, 20:29
I cant stand those two dinosaurs!
Luckily the FIM seems to have less controversial leaders running the show.
I wouldn't be too hopeful though - DORNA seem to be aping whatever Bernie/F1 does.
BDunnell
15th June 2009, 21:13
I'm surprised to learn that Ron has come from an ordinary humble background. I always found him an arrogant man and one who looks down on others as scum (that was the case with Tommy Byrne, arguably.) Anyway, I know what I need to know. Don't mean to hijack this thread. :)
It's perfectly possible for someone to come from a humble background and still look down on others, surely?
wmcot
16th June 2009, 08:53
It's perfectly possible for someone to come from a humble background and still look down on others, surely?
Certainly! I do it all the time! ;)
52Paddy
16th June 2009, 08:55
It's perfectly possible for someone to come from a humble background and still look down on others, surely?
Of course, but I thought the point being made was that: "Ron was an ordinary mechanic from a humble background and wasn't a condescending type of person. Max was, however."
Knock-on
16th June 2009, 09:49
Of course, but I thought the point being made was that: "Ron was an ordinary mechanic from a humble background and wasn't a condescending type of person. Max was, however."
I don't think a lot of people get Ron.
He is a hugely driven man that doesn't suffer fools. He's a workaholic that drives his team almost as hard as he drives himself but is also very loyal to them.
Knowing a few McLaren employees, I have learned that the only people that moan about Ron are the inept ones and the wives who might like to see their partners a bit more :)
I'm not saying he's some sort of God or even that I like the man as I don't know him. However, I know people that do know him and they seem to admire him more than think he's arrogant.
I am evil Homer
16th June 2009, 09:55
Indeed with him and Max it was two very driven, stubborn men so of course they clashed.
Knock-on
16th June 2009, 10:49
Indeed with him and Max it was two very driven, stubborn men so of course they clashed.
I think it was inevitable that this happened.
There has always been resentment from max to Ron since the early days. I get the feeling that Max was jealous and felt Ron was a jumped up little nobody.
If they were both in racing teams it would be fine but as we know, Max went on to head the FIA.
How the hell someone with such an inferiority complex ever became head of the FIA is beyond me but the rest is history.
ShiftingGears
16th June 2009, 10:51
It's more likely to be a simple personality clash between two huge egos.
Yep.
Do you know, I could have sworn we were discussing the Max v Ron tiff.
Yes, and I introduced an example to highlight your flawed reasoning. Simple.
Knock-on
16th June 2009, 10:56
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76244
Well, Max says there will be no change to the proposed FIA rules so it's stalemate.
Giuseppe F1
16th June 2009, 11:05
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76244
Well, Max says there will be no change to the proposed FIA rules so it's stalemate.
I think this will be the straw which breaks the camels back - looks like were gonna have our own IRI-CART war in F1 now boys and girls.
F1 v GP1 for the next 10 years before we lose all our sponsors and fans!!! :(
ArrowsFA1
16th June 2009, 11:44
A breakaway Formula 1 championship would hold no fears for drivers as it would still be the most 'prestigious' championship in the world, claims Red Bull Racing's Mark Webber.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76250
A breakaway looks more likely as the days go by :dozey:
Knock-on
16th June 2009, 13:20
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76253
Gets worse and worse :(
Max is openly hostile to the Manufacturers who he sees as a threat to his power. That's obvious and insulting them is hardly working towards a fair conclusion.
The whole tone of this statement illustrates the issue we have in F1. Max sees F1 as being the property of the FIA and FOM. The teams are meaningless in his opinion because he and Bernie control the sport and that's what it's all about.
Doesn't he realise that the role of the FIA is to facilitate the sport, not to handcuff, dominate and manipulate it.
F1 is a sport, not some bondage hooker :(
veeten
16th June 2009, 13:24
or, they could go to NASCAR. That nice Mr. France seems to have an open door...
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21563.html
SteveMcQueen
16th June 2009, 13:31
I don't know wtf FOTA is trying to achieve here.
There's an official championship. It's run by the FIA and they set the rules. You don't like it? Go elsewhere. Nobody is forced to drive in F1. Most manufacturers would welcome an exit anyway right now, because their CEO's find it harder and harder to spend this enormous money for such a miserable return. And if Ferrari says "F1 is our backbone, it's all we know" than shut up and sign up for 2010.
There's always the numerous GT-Series, Endurance Racing and the WRC who are desperate for fresh blood. Go there.
I'd rather have pure racing teams like Williams or Red Bull in F1 than all those damn manufacturers, which are the sole reason for all the budget talk with their excessive spending in the past.
ArrowsFA1
16th June 2009, 13:52
The more effort everyone puts in to digging, the bigger the hole F1 is finding itself in :dozey:
Knock-on
16th June 2009, 13:55
FOTA cannot step down without giving all power to Max and neither can Max for the same reason.
Looks like trouble.
ArrowsFA1
16th June 2009, 14:03
Following on from Mark Webber's comments, Felipe Massa has said:
The situation looks bad at the moment, but if agreement can be reached then it can have a healthy future. If not, then we need to look seriously at what is the best option: as the teams appear to be united, then maybe it is time to look at doing something different that could be better for the sport."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76255
Tazio
16th June 2009, 14:17
"In light of the success of the FIA's Championship, FOTA - made up of participants who come and go as it suits them –
has set itself two clear objectives: to take over the regulation of Formula 1 from the FIA and to expropriate the commercial rights for itself.
These are not objectives which the FIA can accept."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76253
No $hit Sherlock :dozey:
It has become obvious to this observer that if F1 is to retain its prominence as the ultimate in Auto Racing
a break a way is going to be its best chance!
With equitable sharing of profits the teams won't need to be hamstrung by an absurdly low Budget cap.
When the deed is done we will look back and say:
Why did they wait so long :confused:
By the Almighty :beer:
Bagwan
16th June 2009, 16:42
With Max having stated that FOTA wants total control over rules and more money from FOM , it is time for the FOTA teams to state what they really want .
What does the future of F1 look like to them ?
What rules are are to be put in place , to enable both new teams and old teams to co-exist ?
I am evil Homer
16th June 2009, 17:01
Indeed....I think if FOTA wants to retain the high ground it has to state in no uncertain terms what it wants from F1 - how money is shared, technical specs, how they are agreed going forward (is it majority vote?), if other teams can join FOTA etc etc.
ioan
16th June 2009, 17:07
I think this will be the straw which breaks the camels back - looks like were gonna have our own IRI-CART war in F1 now boys and girls.
F1 v GP1 for the next 10 years before we lose all our sponsors and fans!!! :(
FGS, stop whining over spilled milk.
ioan
16th June 2009, 17:08
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76250
A breakaway looks more likely as the days go by :dozey:
And that's a good thing given that Max isn't going to change and he can't be changed either.
ioan
16th June 2009, 17:09
I don't know wtf FOTA is trying to achieve here.
There's an official championship. It's run by the FIA and they set the rules. You don't like it? Go elsewhere. Nobody is forced to drive in F1.
That's exactly what they will do, so I don't see what your problem is.
Now you can return to your grave in peace. :p
ioan
16th June 2009, 17:12
With Max having stated that FOTA wants total control over rules and more money from FOM , it is time for the FOTA teams to state what they really want .
What does the future of F1 look like to them ?
What rules are are to be put in place , to enable both new teams and old teams to co-exist ?
They will do it, at the right time, where Max will have little time to react with some other knee jerk moves.
ATM the FOTA is fighting Max with is own weapons, they just let him wait and despair.
306 Cosworth
16th June 2009, 17:19
or, they could go to NASCAR. That nice Mr. France seems to have an open door...
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns21563.html
Don be so stupid!
The full statement from the FIA is here
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090616160603.shtml
ioan
16th June 2009, 17:31
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090616160603.shtml
Setting the record straight
The FIA and FOM have together spent decades building the FIA Formula One World Championship into the most watched motor sport competition in history.
Fukcing liars.
99% of the work has been done by the teams who bring the cars and drivers and money in the sport!
F1boat
16th June 2009, 17:45
Go to Le Mans! Let Max race the Formula GP3!
Bagwan
16th June 2009, 19:24
They will do it, at the right time, where Max will have little time to react with some other knee jerk moves.
ATM the FOTA is fighting Max with is own weapons, they just let him wait and despair.
The only problem with waiting is that the main weapon Max is using is the propaganda machine .
If the only words from the mouth of FOTA are the words which Max places there , it will skew the public reaction .
The public reaction is what fuels the public relations for every company involved .
They are presently being portrayed as spoiled brats wanting all the money and control , when I don't think that is the intention of the group .
It should be important to the group that they should be seen to be looking at alternative championships only as a plan B last resort .
Tazio
16th June 2009, 19:57
If the only words from the mouth of FOTA are the words which Max places there , it will skew the public reaction .
The public reaction is what fuels the public relations for every company involved .
They are presently being portrayed as spoiled brats wanting all the money and control , when I don't think that is the intention of the group .
.Bags perhaps it's time to start some petitions backing FOTA :mad:
Power to the People! Screw the M***** F****** PIG
Sonic
16th June 2009, 20:01
There are some pretty strong words bounced around by FIA and FOTA. I ask only this.....
Was nobody paying attention when Indy car split? One powerful series, split into two weakened championships. A decade later the rift has finally healed and we are left with one much weakened series which has been kicked to the weeds by NASCAR. The same WILL happen here. So can somebody please take a sensible pill?
For what its worth my opinion is that IF there is a split, the FOTA series will win whilst F1(GP3) with the likes of Manor Motorsport will be the loser.
Ferrari at Monaco or Manor at Donnington - humph lets think, who will win in the popularity stakes...................
Lemmy-Boy
16th June 2009, 20:29
There are some pretty strong words bounced around by FIA and FOTA. I ask only this.....
Was nobody paying attention when Indy car split? One powerful series, split into two weakened championships. A decade later the rift has finally healed and we are left with one much weakened series which has been kicked to the weeds by NASCAR. The same WILL happen here. So can somebody please take a sensible pill?
I agree. I've also reiterated this point so many times in the past. As a longtime fan of CART, the only real losers are the fans & sponsors.
Like what happened in CART, the FOTA alliance won't last. Plus, there's a global recession happening right now with auto manufacturers losing billions on their balance sheet.
Ferrari won't mind spending 400+ Million to finance their race teams. But managing and bankrolling another series is another matter, especially for the other FOTA members (Renault, Toyota, etc) who are facing dismal financial forecasts in the future.
Oh man...I bet the FRANCE family (NASCAR) is praying for a split to happen. NASCAR taking over global motorsport? After the 1996-2007 AOWR war, I would not bet my money against them.
yodasarmpit
16th June 2009, 20:45
I agree. I've also reiterated this point so many times in the past. As a longtime fan of CART, the only real losers are the fans & sponsors.
Like what happened in CART, the FOTA alliance won't last. Plus, there's a global recession happening right now with auto manufacturers losing billions on their balance sheet.
Ferrari won't mind spending 400+ Million to finance their race teams. But managing and bankrolling another series is another matter, especially for the other FOTA members (Renault, Toyota, etc) who are facing dismal financial forecasts in the future.
Oh man...I bet the FRANCE family (NASCAR) is praying for a split to happen. NASCAR taking over global motorsport? After the 1996-2007 AOWR war, I would not bet my money against them.
I couldn't agree more.
A split would last a few seasons at most, and the FIA will still be there at the end.
ioan
16th June 2009, 20:55
The only problem with waiting is that the main weapon Max is using is the propaganda machine .
If the only words from the mouth of FOTA are the words which Max places there , it will skew the public reaction .
The public reaction is what fuels the public relations for every company involved .
They are presently being portrayed as spoiled brats wanting all the money and control , when I don't think that is the intention of the group .
It should be important to the group that they should be seen to be looking at alternative championships only as a plan B last resort .
To be honest the main European press isn't writing anything about all this FOTA vs Max war.
All you can find about it, and it's very little, is on the dedicated F1 news sites.
The FOTA hold the gun to Max and the CVC's head and they have time until Friday to say: we can't be in F1 with such a corrupt governance and thus we are going to compete in the GPWS starting with 2010.
Knowing a few McLaren employees, I have learned that the only people that moan about Ron are the inept ones and the wives who might like to see their partners a bit more
I know, indeed have worked alongside, a few ex-Mclaren employees....to a man they confirm that he is a soulless word-deleted.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76254
Doesn't look to me like Max is the one to blame.
yodasarmpit
16th June 2009, 21:52
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76254
Doesn't look to me like Max is the one to blame.
It really is worth taking the time to read the link tamb has just posted, it does help shed a lot of light on the current situation.
Somebody
16th June 2009, 21:57
I read it earlier at Grandprix.com ...it's very... selective on the FIA's part. As expected, I suppose, but still.
ioan
16th June 2009, 22:58
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/76254
Doesn't look to me like Max is the one to blame.
You can do better than this Tam. It's just Mosley's spin on the story.
ioan
16th June 2009, 22:59
I read it earlier at Grandprix.com ...it's very... selective on the FIA's part. As expected, I suppose, but still.
Yep, a very one side version that hides all the real problems the teams have with a dictatorial governance and the way money goes to CVC rather than those who work for it.
Tazio
16th June 2009, 23:12
IMHO this article overlooks what I consider to be the biggest inequity of the sport.
Rvenue sharing specifically too muh to Bernie ( who makes gifts of it to Max)
I Think Max is very good at what he does (insert jokes here)
But I will side with John Howlett Ross Brawn Christian Horner, and Stefano Domenicali.
So FOTA isn't playing fair? "Here's a little of your own medicine" says LdiM.
Swallow that.!! :arrows:
K-Pu
16th June 2009, 23:40
Yep, a very one side version that hides all the real problems the teams have with a dictatorial governance and the way money goes to CVC rather than those who work for it.
But FOTA is no better than the FIA. Yes, this article is Max´s view on this trouble, but if di Montezemolo stated another article, I bet 2 pesetas it would be veeeery similar to Max´s one. It´d say things like "the FIA don´t want to negotiate" where the FIA says "the FOTA don´t want to negotiate" and so on.
So, where you see FOTA in this article, put FIA and you´ll get FOTA´s next press release.
And that´s the problem. That´s why there´s no easy solution and that´s why they don´t give a sh!t about fans as long as they have power (and money)
yodasarmpit
17th June 2009, 00:13
Of course the article has an FIA biased spin, it's their statement.
That doesn't negate some of the point's though, this isn't simply a case of Max is bad and everyone is good, there is a lot more to the story than just black and white.
ioan
17th June 2009, 09:29
But FOTA is no better than the FIA.
FOTA are fighting for their rights.
The right to a transparent governance!
The right to get back a fair part of the money they pour into F1!
The right of having stable rules that don't change every year and cost an arm and a leg.
What is Max fighting for? Power, dictatorship, the right to do what he pleases in F1!
You can endorse dictatorship if you want too, but I won't.
K-Pu
17th June 2009, 09:47
FOTA are fighting for their rights.
The right to a transparent governance!
The right to get back a fair part of the money they pour into F1!
The right of having stable rules that don't change every year and cost an arm and a leg.
What is Max fighting for? Power, dictatorship, the right to do what he pleases in F1!
You can endorse dictatorship if you want too, but I won't.
FOTA are now fighting for power. Yes, they fight for their rights but these are THEIR rights, not the best for the sport. And yes, someone has to fight Max, because if there´s something I hate, it is the bad use of power. But that´s what happens with power... It´s addictive, and the more you have, the more you want. FOTA want (legitimately) to put things under control, but the problem is that they´re also in for the power. Would di Montezemolo refuse to be the new head of the FIA? Would the FIA or the FOTA try to reduce distances between them by reconsidering their proposals? Would they let some of their power go if it were good for F1?
Answers: No, no and no.
And that´s the real problem. It might happen anything, but at last it will be a fully political (and even personal) decission which will have nothing to do with the sport itself. And that´s because the FIA and the FOTA, who are not there trying to save the sport from Max.
And what could be done? TBH, I have no clue. Whoever is in charge can be a dictator like Max. It´s a too strong position, and great power needs a lot of responsibility. Who has it? I dont know, but I can tell you most of people would eventually lose their responsibility because power is a really addictive drug.
I hate dictatorship, but by the way this FIA-FOTA war is going, I can only see a f*cking power struggle between Max and FOTA. And the result will be the same dictatorship we have, no matter if it´s Max or whoever is in charge.
Knock-on
17th June 2009, 10:42
But FOTA is no better than the FIA. Yes, this article is Max´s view on this trouble, but if di Montezemolo stated another article, I bet 2 pesetas it would be veeeery similar to Max´s one. It´d say things like "the FIA don´t want to negotiate" where the FIA says "the FOTA don´t want to negotiate" and so on.
So, where you see FOTA in this article, put FIA and you´ll get FOTA´s next press release.
And that´s the problem. That´s why there´s no easy solution and that´s why they don´t give a sh!t about fans as long as they have power (and money)
I kinda agree with you there to an extent.
I don't think it's that they don't want to negiotiate but that there's not common ground to negiotiate on.
Max has decided what to do with the championship and given no thought to what's best for the sport. He has just changed the whole ethos without consultation and that is very wrong.
It's a bit like having two balls in Rugby or saying you cannot have any foreign players in the Premiership football league. It's so alien to what is currently in place that it's unworkable.
Don't assume that I'm on the side of the FOTA teams either. They need to reform and reduce costs but it needs to be in a fair and transparent way. However, the proposed budget cap is unworkable and this is the problem as much as the way Max turns the world of F1 upside down at will.
SteveMcQueen
17th June 2009, 13:12
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
tintop
17th June 2009, 13:22
I hate dictatorship, but by the way this FIA-FOTA war is going, I can only see a f*cking power struggle between Max and FOTA. And the result will be the same dictatorship we have, no matter if it´s Max or whoever is in charge.
Max and Bernie have been turning this into their own private personal playground for years. Absolute power corrupts, I don't think that there are too many examples of 2 venal men holding that much power w/o recourse in the professional/sporting world. Given the deranged personalities of these two guys it was inevitable that they'd eventually go too far.
It matters not that it's FOTA fighting them, it could be anybody else, but FOTA obviously represents the primary competitors, developers, investors and sponsors of the sport all wrapped up into one organization. I think that the FOTA members have put up with a lot over the past few years and are not challenging Max in a calculated power move, I think that they have simply have had enough. I seriously doubt that FOTA really wants to break away, they would just like to have a ruling body/series owner that plays by a reasonable set of rules with some consistency. What a concept.
Knock-on
17th June 2009, 13:41
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
Apart from a few flip flopping members with a tenious grasp on reality, I would say very few people support a manufacturer lead series.
However, I suggest that manufacturers have had a big input in F1 and were encouraged into the sport by Max when perhaps he wanted to mitigate the control the teams had on the series.
Now, they have grown into a voice and have some teeth he no longer wants them and seems intent on dispanding them from the sport.
The FIA is supposed to be this fair adjudicating body you mention but as it's so corrupt and self serving, I think we need an organisation such as FOTA to balance the power a bit and not be the dominant force.
airshifter
18th June 2009, 01:19
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
FOTA as a group seems to work as a democracy of sorts, coming to a suitable agreement that supports the interests of the ones pouring huge money into the sport.
Max, on the other hand, doesn't seem to care about the hand that feeds him.
I'm quite sure I don't need a reality check in stating that Max is more out of line than FOTA is. In reality they hold the cards to the most devoloped form of road racing in the world. Max has in his hand plenty of tracks, the scorn of the FIA, and really not many cards worth playing.
Bagwan
18th June 2009, 01:52
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
10 posts . Is that you , Max ?
Bagwan
18th June 2009, 02:04
FOTA are fighting for their rights.
The right to a transparent governance!
The right to get back a fair part of the money they pour into F1!
The right of having stable rules that don't change every year and cost an arm and a leg.
What is Max fighting for? Power, dictatorship, the right to do what he pleases in F1!
You can endorse dictatorship if you want too, but I won't.
Does FOTA want to get the British instantly behind them ?
Well , this being the final F1 race at Silverstone , a deal to race there next year might be something that might get a whole new circus up and running , in an instant .
Start with that , and other tracks will quickly fall in line , if they haven't already , behind the scenes .
http://www.themotorreport.com.au/34631/f1-fia-claims-fota-trying-to-overthrow-governing-body/
Among the concessions, Mosley said he would agree to a budget cap starting at €100 million for 2010 before sliding to €45 million in 2011, while he also proposed the wage of one staff member would not count toward the cap.
Mosley also agreed to abolish the two tier system provided the teams agree to give technical assistance and share knowledge with new outfits for 2010 and possibly 2011.
anybody remember fota saying this and not max
AndyRAC
18th June 2009, 08:14
FOTA are fighting for their rights.
The right to a transparent governance!
The right to get back a fair part of the money they pour into F1!
The right of having stable rules that don't change every year and cost an arm and a leg.
What is Max fighting for? Power, dictatorship, the right to do what he pleases in F1!
You can endorse dictatorship if you want too, but I won't.
The sooner somebody stands against Max the better - surely there is someone out there. The FiA run 3 World Championships - and they're all in a mess - coincidence? I think not - they are not fit to run a whelk stall.
As for Bernie - while he has done a lot of good for F1 - the last 5-10 years have just been about money making - it's time he went as well.
Manufacturers - while I understand they want to protect their interests - they are always at the whim of their marketing men - and therefore can leave the sport whenever they like, leaving a mess behind. I'm not too keen for them to be given carte blanche to run a Championship.
Hell, it's a bloody mess.....
Alfa Fan
19th June 2009, 02:16
FOTA teams in "doing as Mosley says shocker"
Lemmy-Boy
20th June 2009, 22:35
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
I agree. I'd rather have a dictator run F1 than a group of manufacturers, where a single one can leave anytime.
Manufacturers have come and gone through the years but F1 & FIA still remains. It only takes one bad year of selling autos, pressure from stockholders, change of management or CEO, to force a MANUFACTURER to leave (ie. Honda, Ford, etc). It's been recently reported that Mercedes was close to leaving F1. The Mercedes board narrowly passed a vote to stay.
wmcot
20th June 2009, 22:58
I agree. I'd rather have a dictator run F1 than a group of manufacturers, where a single one can leave anytime.
Manufacturers have come and gone through the years but F1 & FIA still remains. It only takes one bad year of selling autos, pressure from stockholders, change of management or CEO, to force a MANUFACTURER to leave (ie. Honda, Ford, etc). It's been recently reported that Mercedes was close to leaving F1. The Mercedes board narrowly passed a vote to stay.
In this case, that's a bit like saying I'd rather have Hitler run the world than individual governments because political parties come and go and sometimes borders change.
if you can see any sanity in the way Max has manipulated the rules and forced teams to spend excess millions with total re-designs each year to fit his whimsical rules while calling for lowering costs at the same time, then I have to wonder about your thinking.
There is nothing wrong with the true F1 as it used to be with manufacturers and private teams coming and going as their finances dictate. That's what we call the free market in the real world.
(I wonder if Mercedes vote would have been as narrow without Max and his "witch hunt?")
wmcot
20th June 2009, 23:11
Manufacturers come and go. They don't care about the sport, all they want is to win, sell cars, move on to the next project and leave behind a complete mess. Whoever is on the side of the FOTA in this whole drama needs a reality check.
Yes, Bernie makes way too much money in this whole thing and Max has too much power. But in the end, I'd rather have an independent body ruling the show instead of manufacturers constantly stabbing each other in the back all the time.
When manufacturers run a series alone, what you end up with is s.th. like the DTM-Series in Germany: a f*ckin freak show.
The problem is that Max is insane! He is willing to destroy the sport to hang onto the power he has.
I'm willing to give the FOTA plan a chance. They are saying that they will have a government which is not run by the manufacturers. One simple way to accomplish this is to give each team and engine supplier a single vote for the president and have a mandatory term limit of 2 to 4 years.
We don't need the votes of each motor club in every country who has nothing to do with F1 to determine the government. Those involved in F1 need to decide the government of the sport.
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