Tony George ousted from IMS

[SarahFan]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-tony-george-ousted-from-ims/

[Andrewmcm]

So....... Where does that leave, well, everything really?

[the bro]

Man unbeleivable. But now that he is gone who can we blame now?

[the bro]

Another thought how will he keep the IRL afloat without the Speedway money?

[SarahFan]

Another thought how will he keep the IRL afloat without the Speedway money?


dingdingdingding....


I suspect team owners phones are ringing off the hook right about now

[ChicagocrewIRL]

That sound was my jaw dropping through the floor.... I'm in shock

[SarahFan]

my early prediction:

as this plays out (over time) it will have much less effect on the IMS and the I500.... and a more significant effect on the IRL

[chuck34]

I'd say Humpy's in.

[NickFalzone]

This is surprising, but not really that much if you think about the state of the league and the speedway the last 6-10 years... I see the league being sold off to team owners/private investors. While IMS needs the series to support their big race, clearly they will not be making the handouts they have in the last several years. There are pros and cons to this for both current team owners, drivers, and fans. In the short term, I don't think this the best news for the series, but maybe it's something that had to happen.

[SarahFan]

I'd say Humpy's in.

I'm guessing not.....well see

I suspect they will put someone in place that wont make a lot of waves..

I'm guessing there thinking stability on the homefront as Tony and the IRL will be forced to make changes in management/ownership of the IRL


and lets all be honest.... Tony had to sell the 600milliondollar Vision.....it's no where near what he said it would be 15 years ago...

China...street coarses.. temporary ovals.....11 americans on the starting grid etc etc

and the lowest TV ratings the sport has ever experienced

[garyshell]

Hmmm, he's out of a job but still heading up the IRL. On a side note, I wonder if this is why Humpy was sniffing around on Sunday.

Gary

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Just checked the IMS website and the IRL website. No official press releases or announcements yet.

[The instant classic]

Man unbeleivable. But now that he is gone who can we blame now?
damn yr right i had fun making fun of tony and blaming him for everything
he was the punch line to many of my jokes but now :(

[garyshell]

damn yr right i had fun making fun of tony and blaming him for everything
he was the punch line to many of my jokes but now :(


But have any of our criticisms of him been about his role at the Speedway or as head of the IRL. Remember he is ousted from the Speedway job NOT his IRL one.

Gary

[The instant classic]

But have any of our criticisms of him been about his role at the Speedway or as head of the IRL. Remember he is ousted from the Speedway job NOT his IRL one.

Gary

with less on tony's plate maybe now he will trun around indycar?
my guess is tony was kicked from indy speedway after the poor ratings the 500 got

[nigelred5]

Well I guess his work was done and they couldn't take it any more. He single handedly killed open wheel racing in the US, Ruined the traditions of IMS, and he's burnt through the family trust fund like a bag of marshmallows at a bonfire. My question is why it took them so long? From teh reported layoffs and fire sale, sounds like the family just did a budget check and realized they're stone flat broke. I'm just suprized he didn't manage to place a 10ft tall bronze of his mug atop the pagoda before he was voted out. Karma.

Well, there goes the scapegoat... I hope everyone has their water wings on because it sure sounds like it's swimming time to me.

[Chris R]

I am no fan of TG - but this cannot be good for the IRL - look for CART part deux before 2010 with Chip Ganassi playing the role of Pat Patrick, Jimmy Vassar as Dan Gurney and Roger Penske appearing as himself....

[MDS]

This is something that has been rumored for years. But at this point it's still a rumor. All I've found is Robin's story and no second-source verification, so we don't know how accurate it is.

That said, we've heard for years that the Hulman/George family wasn't happy with how Tony was running things and were considering a change in leadership. Perhaps this is clearing the field for Humpy Wheeler to take over the speedway operations.

The other question is, does TG still have control of the IRL. Since the IRL and IMS are quasi-independent agencies its not clear as to whether he's no on longer in charge of one or both. If there was a coup to remove him at IMS there could easily be one going on at the IRL.

I think best case scernario is that Humpy Wheeler takes over Indy and someone like Tony Cotman or Vicki O'Conner takes over the IRL.

[the bro]

But have any of our criticisms of him been about his role at the Speedway or as head of the IRL. Remember he is ousted from the Speedway job NOT his IRL one.

Gary

Your right about that, but it sounded so good.

[Jag_Warrior]

Another thought how will he keep the IRL afloat without the Speedway money?

Do what Oral Roberts did when his boat was sinking?
http://img.timeinc.net/time/daily/2007/0710/oral_roberts_1026.jpg

"If I don't get some money for the IRL, I'm going to be called home!!!"

BTW, for those who have been operating under the (mistaken) belief for years that Tony George owned IMS, how is that theory working for ya now? :dozey:

[Chamoo]

This is big news. I don't like this at all. It spells bad news, and I'm sure right about now, the IRL is getting calls from just about every promoter they have, every team owner and probably every single sponsor they have or are trying to acquire.

I've thrown something up on the blog, I don't want to type out the whole thing here. Check out the blog for my opinion on the situation.

[MDS]

I'm sorry man, I couldn't hear you over the sound of the blatant self promotion.

[MDS]

Still no attributed sources but the Indy Business Journal has an unnamed source.

Tony George was voted out as chairman of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway last night by the IMS board of directors after 20 years in charge, SpeedTV.com is reporting.

IMS board members include George's mother, Mari; his sisters Josie, Nancy and Kathy; attorney Jack Snyder and George himself.

George, 49, will reportedly retain his position as CEO of the Indy Racing League, which he founded in 1996. George is the grandson of Tony Hulman, who rescued the Speedway from probable demise in 1945.

A racing industry source told IBJ that Tony George's mother and sisters became fed up with the financial losses incurred by the Speedway and Indy Racing League.

George's dismissal comes less than one month after his wife, Laura, was removed from her job as staff adviser at the IMS.

IMS officials were not available to comment this morning, but sources said that the IMS board hopes to talk to H.A. "Humpy" Wheeler, one of the foremost promoters of NASCAR and former president of Lowe's Motor Speedway in North Carolina, about a possible management position.Seriously, The family needs to get out in front of this quickly.

http://cms.ibj.com/ASPXPages/6iframes/FrontEndArticlesDetailPage.aspx?ArticleID=38489&NoFrame=1

[ChicagocrewIRL]

So since the formation of the IRL in 1995 was said to be Tony George taking his ball (which apparently never was his to begin with)and starting his own game, this must be the instance where that ball has been taken away from him... so what happens to his game ?

[chuck34]

I'm guessing not.....well see

I suspect they will put someone in place that wont make a lot of waves..

I'm guessing there thinking stability on the homefront as Tony and the IRL will be forced to make changes in management/ownership of the IRL


and lets all be honest.... Tony had to sell the 600milliondollar Vision.....it's no where near what he said it would be 15 years ago...

China...street coarses.. temporary ovals.....11 americans on the starting grid etc etc

and the lowest TV ratings the sport has ever experienced

Why don't you think that Humpy will be asked in? You are right about pretty much everything else in your post. The family wants stability on the homefront, he (TG) "blew" through loads of cash, and they aren't where they wanted to be.

So why not bring in someone with a stellar track record of running race tracks? In my mind it makes perfect sence that if the family really wants IMS to start making serious money again that you would bring in someone like Humpy. And who else out there is like Humpy other than Humpy?

[timshag]

This is something that has been rumored for years. But at this point it's still a rumor. All I've found is Robin's story and no second-source verification, so we don't know how accurate it is.

That said, we've heard for years that the Hulman/George family wasn't happy with how Tony was running things and were considering a change in leadership. Perhaps this is clearing the field for Humpy Wheeler to take over the speedway operations.

The other question is, does TG still have control of the IRL. Since the IRL and IMS are quasi-independent agencies its not clear as to whether he's no on longer in charge of one or both. If there was a coup to remove him at IMS there could easily be one going on at the IRL.

I think best case scernario is that Humpy Wheeler takes over Indy and someone like Tony Cotman or Vicki O'Conner takes over the IRL.


I bet Roger Penske is on this. Danny Sullivan said it best, "When the music stops, Roger always finds himself a seat.
It will be interesting to see what Penkse does now.

I am thinking it would make sense that Roger Penkse will have a BIG PART in helping the IRL go forward.
Could include guiding the series as well as partial ownership?
I wouldn't doubt it.

[The instant classic]

So since the formation of the IRL in 1995 was said to be Tony George taking his ball (which apparently never was his to begin with)and starting his own game, this must be the instance where that ball has been taken away from him... so what happens to his game ?
in the words of the jigsaw killer (from the movie saw)
GAME OVER!

[chuck34]

I bet Roger Penske is on this. Danny Sullivan said it best, "When the music stops, Roger always finds himself a seat.
It will be interesting to see what Penkse does now.

I am thinking it would make sense that Roger Penkse will have a BIG PART in helping the IRL go forward.
Could include guiding the series as well as partial ownership?
I wouldn't doubt it.

If this is all true, TG will NOT be leaving the IRL. Remember that the IRL and IMS are seperate.

[drewdawg727]

Speechless..........

[DBell]

TG had to go, there is no doubt in my mind, but I don't know about Wheeler being the guy to take over. If you look for some of his thoughts on OW that he's said in interviews over the years, it may give you something to think about. If he can actually understand OW and what it's fans want to see, then maybe it would work. If he tries to make it NASACR OW Racing, then I can't see ow going in a direction that I want to see.

[beachbum]

So since the formation of the IRL in 1995 was said to be Tony George taking his ball (which apparently never was his to begin with)and starting his own game, this must be the instance where that ball has been taken away from him... so what happens to his game ?
The article states he is still CEO of the IRL. He still controls the ball and runs the league, just not one of the stadiums.

[DBell]

The article states he is still CEO of the IRL. He still controls the ball and runs the league, just not one of the stadiums.

That's the position CART was in and that didn't end up well. It's not just one of the stadiums, but THE stadium. IF IMS creates a new set of specs for IC, then what does TG do? That would be ironic, TG leading a breakaway serieas apart from IMS. :s mokin:

[MDS]

If he tries to make it NASACR OW Racing, then I can't see ow going in a direction that I want to see.

Yeah, because full fields of mostly sponsored cars, a 36-race schedule, and competitive passing on oval tracks would be such a horror to endure.

[Hondo]

They should have run the idiot off on the very day that stepchild, the IRL, was born. While they're at it, they ought to hire A.J. Foyt so they can fire him too.

[nigelred5]

That's the position CART was in and that didn't end up well. It's not just one of the stadiums, but THE stadium. IF IMS creates a new set of specs for IC, then what does TG do? That would be ironic, TG leading a breakaway serieas apart from IMS. :s mokin:

Well, the series generally controls the specs, not the track. George was in the unique position to be able to dictate as he did starting in 1995. It would depend on how different the specs were from the IRL specs. I don't think anyone at IMS is THAT dumb in this climate.
The IMS board surely could adopt new specs that any competetors would have to abide by to compete, however they wouldn't necessarily be those of the IRL. It wouldn't upset me in the least to see the specs for the 500 itself opened back up to encourage far more competetors as it was in the CART days when the race was run under USAC( but PLEASE! no more USAC) CART had their specs, IMS had theirs for the 500. There's penty of cars appropriate to run at Indy outside of that ugly Dallara.

Anyone have a 1993 CART rule book laying around anywhere?? That would be an ideal starting point for new regs IMHO. Can we get mulligan on a 14 year old mistake?

[ChicagocrewIRL]

The article states he is still CEO of the IRL. He still controls the ball and runs the league, just not one of the stadiums.

The "Ball" is the IMS and the 500. He no longer controls either.

I chose not to follow CART after the split solely because it did not have the 500. Any open wheel series in North America MUST have the 500. It is for love of the Speedway and the 500 alone that I am an IRL fan.

irlfanatics.com lol

[Jag_Warrior]

The article states he is still CEO of the IRL. He still controls the ball and runs the league, just not one of the stadiums.

Very true. But since we now know that the IRL isn't profitable (according to Anton himself), where does he now get the money to run the IRL, if it's to become (truly) independent of IMS? I don't think the family will let him fall completely on his face - since they still have some skin in the game too. But it looks like his days of playing in the family trust fund like it's his own personal piggybank may be over.

[Wilf]

Actually, I think this is TG's way of nicking the scoopmeister Robin. So far all of the reports credit Robin Miller, no independent confirmation.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

But then again all of this is still solely rumor without any official press release from the Speedway.

[DBell]

Actually, I think this is TG's way of nicking the scoopmeister Robin. So far all of the reports credit Robin Miller, no independent confirmation.

Unfortunately, you may be right.
http://www.indystar.com/article/20090527/SPORTS0107/90527027/Tony+George+ousted+from+IMS

[ChicagocrewIRL]

OMG Miller ... huge credibility gaff

Echoes of Dan Rather and the Bush debacle. And look what happened to poor Dan

[Jag_Warrior]

OMG Miller ... huge credibility gaff

Echoes of Dan Rather and the Bush debacle. And look what happened to poor Dan

And if Miller muffed this one, the exact same thing should happen to him.

[Chamoo]

Hey, I understand this may look bad on both Bruce Martin and Robin Miller, but people have denied unification after it happened.

It is also possible TG just doesn't know his job position is now gone from IMS yet.

Or, its all a hoax and RM and BM got hosed good on this one, and could lose their jobs because of it.

[DBell]

And if Miller muffed this one, the exact same thing should happen to him.

I agree with you, but lets not give RM the boot just yet.

From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/bruce_martin/05/27/Tony_George/index.html

[ChicagocrewIRL]

ugh my insides are being turned inside out .......not pretty

[Wilf]

Indianapolis Star - burned bridge
CART - bankrupt
CCWS - bankrupt
Speed - hanging on by a fingernail
VERSUS - where did he come out on the decision to go to VERSUS?

[Jag_Warrior]

I agree with you, but lets not give RM the boot just yet.

From SI.com

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/writers/bruce_martin/05/27/Tony_George/index.html

Definitely agree with you there. The only thing that's now garonteed is that someone is going to have a huge buzzard egg plastered to their face after this one is resolved.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Definitely agree with you there. The only thing that's now garonteed is that someone is going to have a huge buzzard egg plastered to their face after this one is resolved.

haha you said "buzzard egg!!"

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Robin may be wrong - but as a journalist, I doubt he just came up with a such a story. Something must have happened. Or someone credible told him something had happened which would mean someone has an agenda.

[DBell]

Found this at another site.
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/Copy_of_George_still_IMS_CEO_20090527


I think this part of the story was interesting.


George said there was a meeting held Tuesday morning but he called the meeting "typical" and said it was called to review the past month and the race. However, George seemed to acknowledge some uncertainty when asked if it was possible there was another meeting Tuesday night.
"Maybe something happened that I'm not aware of -- I don't know," George said.

[The instant classic]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090527/SPORTS0107/90527027/Tony+George++I+m+still+in+charge+of+IMS
check it out tony still is the CEO

[Jag_Warrior]

Found this at another site.
http://www.wishtv.com/dpp/news/indiana/Copy_of_George_still_IMS_CEO_20090527


I think this part of the story was interesting.



"Maybe something happened that I'm not aware of -- I don't know," George said.

I have an idea for a drinking game. Everytime Tony George says, "I don't know", you take a shot of your favorite beverage. Who's up?!

[DBell]

I have an idea for a drinking game. Everytime Tony George says, "I don't know", you take a shot of your favorite beverage. Who's up?!

:D Talk about acute alcohol poisoning.

When the time comes it should be incorporated on TG's headstone:

"Here lies Anton George- He never knew"

[Wilf]

Robin may be wrong - but as a journalist, I doubt he just came up with a such a story. Something must have happened. Or someone credible told him something had happened which would mean someone has an agenda.

Which is why you have to get a second source on such a story or at least inform the corporation of your story and be able to report that they declined to comment.

[gofastandwynn]

I have an idea for a drinking game. Everytime Tony George says, "I don't know", you take a shot of your favorite beverage. Who's up?!

Thats a knock of old the old Gil de Ferran when you drank when he said "You Know"....

[Wilf]

Which is why you have to get a second source on such a story or at least inform the corporation of your story and be able to report that they declined to comment.

OOPS!!!!!


For Immediate Release



INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY STATEMENT

Wednesday, May 27, 2009



At a regular meeting of the board of directors of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on Tuesday, May 26, board members asked Tony George, chief executive officer of the IMS companies, to devise a plan for management of Hulman & Company, the Indy Racing League, Clabber Girl and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that would allow him to focus on the business which requires the greatest attention. This plan is to be presented to the board at a meeting later this year.



IMS Chairman of the Board Mari Hulman George said: “There was a general discussion about the challenges and opportunities facing all of our companies and where most of our energies need to be spent. All of our properties are doing well, given the challenges of the current economy. The Indy Racing League represents our greatest growth opportunity and therefore deserves the most attention at this point.”



Tony George said: “Contrary to published reports, I continue to serve as CEO of IMS. Our board of directors met yesterday, and we did discuss how to best confront challenges and exploit opportunities facing our businesses. This is nothing new and is something that we continually do as a board. But no changes in leadership or responsibility have been made. We don’t normally comment on board deliberations concerning our family business. However, the widespread, inaccurate reports and rumors caused my mother and me to conclude that it was necessary to set the record straight. If changes are made in the management of the company that are newsworthy, we will announce them when they are made.”



…IMS2009…



Media Contact: Ron Green, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, (317) 492-6780, rgreen@brickyard.com

World Wide Web: http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com (http://www.indianapolismotorspeedway.com/)

[Bob Riebe]

I'd say Humpy's in.
Humpy is the same sort of gimmick prone person Tony is.
Works fine for Nascar down south, but Indianapolis Speedway is not NASCAR down south.

[gofastandwynn]

Robin Miller to be on JMV at 4pm eastern on WNDE

http://www.wnde.com/main.html

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Miller will be on LIVE at 4pm EDT on WNDE Sports Radio Indianapolis

http://www.wnde.com/main.html

[garyshell]

Robin Miller to be on JMV at 4pm eastern on WNDE

http://www.wnde.com/main.html


But no live streaming to the internet that I could find.

Gary

[ChicagocrewIRL]

But no live streaming to the internet that I could find.

Gary

mine isn't working either.... Im sure we will get some locals to fill us in. Thanks in advance.

[gofastandwynn]

But no live streaming to the internet that I could find.

Gary



If you have a iphone you can listen through the iheart radio application

As far as clear channel goes I have only been able to get it to work using IE as the browser

Note: He will now be on at 5:15 eastern

[SarahFan]

well well wellthis is all very int

eresting now isn't it

[Dr. Krogshöj]

Which is why you have to get a second source on such a story or at least inform the corporation of your story and be able to report that they declined to comment.

Of course. so. I'm just saying there has been something in the background. But he's made a huge mistake and his credibility will take a hit, deservedly so.

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Looks like the original story from this morning has been modified but NOT RETRACTED. It has statements of Tony George's confirmation that he is in fact still the CEO of IMS. So it looks like Robin Miller is sticking to his story.
The new headline reads.... TRANSITION COMING AT IMS.

The original headline from this morning read something to the effect : TONY GEORGE OUSTED ... not sure the exact wording.

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-transition-coming-at-ims/

[garyshell]

From AP


May 27, 5:49 PM (ET)

By MICHAEL MAROT

INDIANAPOLIS (AP) -Tony George is still the CEO of Indianapolis Motor Speedway.

How much longer he holds the title remains unclear.

On Wednesday, track officials denied that the board of directors voted to oust the 49-year-old CEO and said that George has instead been asked to create a more efficient plan for spending time running the family's businesses. George, the Indy Racing League founder, must report back to the board later this year.

"Contrary to published reports, I continue to serve as CEO of IMS," George said in a statement issued by the speedway. "Our board of directors met yesterday, and we did discuss how to best confront challenges and exploit opportunities facing our businesses. But no changes in leadership or responsibility have been made."

Yet.

The board wants George to focus on the area that needs the greatest attention. The Hulman-George family has run the speedway for six decades and also owns the IRL and Clabber Girl, a baking-powder company based in Terre Haute, Ind.

Tony's mother, Mari Hulman George, made it clear which part of the company that should be.

"The Indy Racing League represents our greatest growth opportunity and therefore deserves the most attention at this point," she said in the statement.

But throughout the day, confusion reigned in Indianapolis.
SpeedTV.com reported Wednesday morning that the board, which is comprised of George, his mother, his three sisters and attorney Jack Snyder, had removed George as the speedway's CEO after 20 years in the position.
Series regulars were shocked.

They were even more confounded when George later appeared outside the 100-year-old track to deny the report.

"I think a lot of people were wondering what exactly was going on," longtime IndyCar team owner Dennis Reinbold said. "The whole thing was confusing. It didn't seem to make any sense."

Clearly, the economy has put a premium on the company finances.
George has spent hundreds of millions or dollars in the past 13 years to make track renovations and keep the IRL afloat.

Construction for a road course, new press tower and new Pagoda cost about $100 million. Those facilities were built for a Formula One race that is no longer held in Indy.

He also broke with tradition by bringing NASCAR and Grand Prix motorcycle to a track that had only hosted one race each year, the Indianapolis 500, until 1994.

But the cost to keep the track in good condition can be astronomical.
"This place wakes up every morning and eats money," George told local TV reporters. "We spend a lot of money keeping it in the condition we do. Certainly the Indy Racing League has in the past required a lot of capital to keep it going when there was two competing series - and a lot of money was spent last year trying to unify."

The statement indicated the family businesses are not in trouble, but the speedway and IndyCar series have been cutting back.

Over the past six months, about 60 staff jobs were eliminated, and George's wife Laura, who co-owns Vision Racing with her husband and actor Patrick Dempsey, lost her job as an adviser. George said she had not been fired.
Throughout the series' signature May event, the 500, there were noticeable differences such as a reduced practice schedule and fewer staff members around the track.

At Tuesday's regularly scheduled meeting, one of the topics was efficiency.
"There was a general discussion about the challenges and opportunities facing all of our companies and where most of our energies need to be spent," Hulman George said. "All of our properties are doing well, given the challenges of the current economy."

That could put George in the position of determining where his energy is best spent - at the track, with the series or, perhaps, finding a way to still do both.

Reinbold prefers the third option.

"He's done a lot of innovative things that have been good," Reinbold said. "We in the IndyCar series are growing and that's directly under his watch and his responsibility. I've made mistakes in my business, and I think there's been a few mistakes in the IndyCar series as well, but you live and learn. I think to be growing in times like this, that means our positioning is pretty good."

---= Associated Press Auto Racing writer Mike Harris also contributed to this report.


Well maybe Robin isn't so far off base after all.

Gary

[Jonesi]

NascarNow just had both TG & RM on camera (NOT TOGETHER ;-). TG denied he was out, but hemmed & hawed about all the problems they've had. RM is sticking by his story, and said it may be like his "Winston leaving Nascar" story 7 years ago, They'll save face for a few days, then admit it.

Truth's probably somewhere in the middle.

[Wilf]

NascarNow just had both TG & RM on camera (NOT TOGETHER ;-). TG denied he was out, but hemmed & hawed about all the problems they've had. RM is sticking by his story, and said it may be like his "Winston leaving Nascar" story 7 years ago, They'll save face for a few days, then admit it.

Truth's probably somewhere in the middle.

What did Robin say? Yes there will be changes in the future, but that isn't what he said; he said it was a done deal.

Why do we always give Robin a pass; he's no Bill Clinton.

[Lousada]

Smoke = fire?
At least nobody is complaining about 3.9 ratings anymore.

[DBell]

What did Robin say? Yes there will be changes in the future, but that isn't what he said; he said it was a done deal.

Why do we always give Robin a pass; he's no Bill Clinton.

After reading all the anti RM stuff on the boards the last couple of years, I wouldn't say he gets a pass. We wouldn't have heard about any of this if he hadn't said anything about it. He may not have not got it all right, but clearly something is going on.

One thing I'll say about Robin, he's about the only one left who writes and reports on TV about the IRL on a regular basis. Lose him and there is that much less being said on Indycar than there is now. Whether I'm agreeing with him or cussing him, I hope he continues to report in OW.

[SarahFan]

in the end we have two stories....robins is rife with agenda.... and the the IMS press release reeks of damage control...


but in the end they really aren't that different



I suspect the bottomline is that IMS will not be funding the IRL anymore.... certainly not to the tune of 100's of millions

[underpowered]

After reading all the anti RM stuff on the boards the last couple of years, I wouldn't say he gets a pass. We wouldn't have heard about any of this if he hadn't said anything about it. He may not have not got it all right, but clearly something is going on.

One thing I'll say about Robin, he's about the only one left who writes and reports on TV about the IRL on a regular basis. Lose him and there is that much less being said on Indycar than there is now. Whether I'm agreeing with him or cussing him, I hope he continues to report in OW.

I remember a thread two weeks ago where I was vilified for suggesting Robin wasnt much of a journalist. I like reading his stuff...I just dont take him too seriously.

I feel a little vindicated now. He called the cars toilets.....I guess that's where his career is headed.

[Wilf]

in the end we have two stories....robins is rife with agenda.... and the the IMS press release reeks of damage control...


but in the end they really aren't that different



I suspect the bottomline is that IMS will not be funding the IRL anymore.... certainly not to the tune of 100's of millions

Ken - let me start off with I'm sorry we didn't get together at the 500 Sunday. Beyond that, I am disgusted with Robin's article and I am lost where you see damage control in the following:

At a regular meeting of the board of directors of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on Tuesday, May 26, board members asked Tony George, chief executive officer of the IMS companies, to devise a plan for management of Hulman & Company, the Indy Racing League, Clabber Girl and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that would allow him to focus on the business which requires the greatest attention. This plan is to be presented to the board at a meeting later this year.

IMS Chairman of the Board Mari Hulman George said: "There was a general discussion about the challenges and opportunities facing all of our companies and where most of our energies need to be spent. All of our properties are doing well, given the challenges of the current economy. The Indy Racing League represents our greatest growth opportunity and therefore deserves the most attention at this point."

At the very least, it politely indicated without saying it that Robin Miller doesn't know what he is talking about; Tony George is the CEO of IMS. Lest we forget, Robin said he was ousted.

If Robin would have reported that the board was upset and that they gave him a deadline to present a plan for success, that would have been easier to swallow. That is happening more and more all the time in any number of corporations and I wouldn't be surprised at all that they gave him a deadline with an or else clause.

Where in that statement do you see they have reduced funding of the IRL or are you referring to the truth as Robin knows it?

If you want to see damage control, check out the SPEEDTV.com website; the story still has the 5/27/2009 10:06 AM posting time but it is now significantly different from the original post.

You and I can have agendas in this forum; a commentator is not supposed to use his electronic soapbox to promote his agenda.

I look forward to the continued debate over the way to proceed with open wheel racing without Robin making a fool of himself and getting the rest of us all stirred up.

[garyshell]

Wilf,

Robin is not that stupid. I don't think the fat lady has sung the aria yet. Let's just say for the sake of argument that Robin did get most of the story right and that the George family was not ready for the rest of the world to know it. Wouldn't the type of statement Mari made be exactly the sort of damage control that would be called for? Using the cover Mari just provided, TG can now prepare a plan that has him step down from IMS operations and say it was all his idea. Saving face and tamping down the istory of the inter-family squabble. Just sayin'...

There is after all precedent for this sort of action, how many times was the unification denied before they finally came clean?

Because of the press release, not in spite of it, I think the jury is still out on TG's role at IMS. But I do agree with you on the funding of the IRL. The bit about the IRL being their biggest growth opportunity blows a big hole in Ken's idea this means less funding for the IRL.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

This is perhaps an optimistic view of it, and also very naive, but here's my interpretation of this from IndyCar.com:

"At a regular meeting of the board of directors of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on May 26, board members asked George to devise a plan for management of Hulman and Company, the Indy Racing League, Clabber Girl and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that would allow him to focus on the business that requires the greatest attention."

Tony is being asked to do less, he's maybe being told that he's doing some things well, but he's got his hands in too many pots at the moment. He needs to focus on a few key areas that he believes he can make improvements in. Maybe that includes IMS, maybe IRL, the specific areas are to be determined. But in his current role they believe he has too much power, too much responsibility, and the board wants to relieve him of some of that responsibility. This is different from what Miller said, although Miller was not really that far off the mark. The truth seem so be somewhere in the middle, between what Miller said, and what was said in the press conference. The most significant detail is that, right now, George is still the CEO. In the bigger picture, I see this as perhaps a good thing. One of the issues most of us have had with the IRL is that they are very reluctant to make changes, they move at a very slow pace on any significant decisions. I think new leadership in certain areas could be a good thing. A significant drop in funding to the IRL, if this happens, is not such a good thing. But I think the league will survive, perhaps with a moderately reduced field, less a race or two, and an even higher number of pay-to-play drivers. I don't think this will have an immediate drastic impact, and maybe 3-5 years from now will be better for the series.

[SarahFan]

Ken - let me start off with I'm sorry we didn't get together at the 500 Sunday. Beyond that, I am disgusted with Robin's article and I am lost where you see damage control in the following:

At a regular meeting of the board of directors of the Indianapolis Motor Speedway on Tuesday, May 26, board members asked Tony George, chief executive officer of the IMS companies, to devise a plan for management of Hulman & Company, the Indy Racing League, Clabber Girl and the Indianapolis Motor Speedway that would allow him to focus on the business which requires the greatest attention. This plan is to be presented to the board at a meeting later this year.

IMS Chairman of the Board Mari Hulman George said: "There was a general discussion about the challenges and opportunities facing all of our companies and where most of our energies need to be spent. All of our properties are doing well, given the challenges of the current economy. The Indy Racing League represents our greatest growth opportunity and therefore deserves the most attention at this point."

At the very least, it politely indicated without saying it that Robin Miller doesn't know what he is talking about; Tony George is the CEO of IMS. Lest we forget, Robin said he was ousted.

If Robin would have reported that the board was upset and that they gave him a deadline to present a plan for success, that would have been easier to swallow. That is happening more and more all the time in any number of corporations and I wouldn't be surprised at all that they gave him a deadline with an or else clause.

Where in that statement do you see they have reduced funding of the IRL or are you referring to the truth as Robin knows it?

If you want to see damage control, check out the SPEEDTV.com website; the story still has the 5/27/2009 10:06 AM posting time but it is now significantly different from the original post.

You and I can have agendas in this forum; a commentator is not supposed to use his electronic soapbox to promote his agenda.

I look forward to the continued debate over the way to proceed with open wheel racing without Robin making a fool of himself and getting the rest of us all stirred up.

no reason for you to be sorry... I was the slacker on this one.... there were three others in the group....i was not the leader of the bunch etc etc...

had a great time....racing fri sat and sun... IMS is very impressive... I went in 94'.....but I didnt I fully appreciated the place

anyhow...maybe Chicago....


heres a question

someone fed Robin some info .......personnaly I wonder who?...maybe one of the sisters?... anyone know one or more of them?.... is there one that might be a bit more miffed than the rest?


rereading Robins article it's clear he got a big fat boner and the blood ran from one place to the other and he got more than carried away with Glee...


as far as IMS is concerned I suspect they didn't think the details of the meeting would be known much less reported.....certainlynot the next morning

I believe Tony has indeed been voted out as CEO of IMS....but it wasn't supposed to take place until later in the year....reality 2009 is 1/3 done... and the next 2 events are past the planning stage and only need to be executed at the point

as far as your specific paragraph and damage control....

it perfectly sets the stage for Tony to step away from IMS etc and remain in control of the IRL and give it his 100% attention.....


IMO this is not over....but will actually play out over the remainder of 2009...

as far as Gary thinking theres a big hole in my OPINION that the IRL will no longer be funded by the IMS coffers.....Time will be very telling I suspect

[anthonyvop]

I have know love for Robin Miller.....Hell I have major issues with Miller.




But I heard the same story from what are probably the same source........Miller should stand by the story.

[garyshell]

as far as Gary thinking theres a big hole in my OPINION that the IRL will no longer be funded by the IMS coffers.....Time will be very telling I suspect


Ken,

I realized it was your opinion, didn't intend to imply anything else. Sorry if it sounded like I was.

Yes, time will tell. But the fact that Mari made the point that they considered the IRL as their biggest growth opportunity makes me think they aren't looking to pull back any time soon.

Gary

[NickFalzone]

Gary, time will tell, but what I've seen in the last year is that TG has already been cutting back significantly on the free money. In 08 and with the new Team program they were handing out money all over the place to make sure unification went smoothly. But I see a comment, like the 2013 one, in the context of today's events, and I think that profitability is as big a concern as any in the series right now, and that this profitability will need to be reached soon, and with less $$ from Hulman George to help it along. What they may be hoping for is a unique and creative talent to come on board, maybe a Humpy Wheeler, who can inexpensively get things rolling in the right direction. Throwing money at it hasn't had the desired results, and they simply do not have or want to throw more money at it. As I said earlier, I don't think there's going to be these drastic cuts or changes in the next 12-24 months, but things will become a little more difficult moneywise for the team owners. And if things do not pan out for the popularity of the series, than more significant steps will be taken, and I think we can all imagine what those would be. I don't see the series disappearing anytime soon, but ownership and exclusivity in the marketplace could once again be issues. And personally, I do not want to see OW go through that again.

[Gluaistean]

Smoke = fire?
At least nobody is complaining about 3.9 ratings anymore.

Absolutely. Miller did not just decide to write such an article without some form of confirmation.

My belief is that it took the Hulman's off guard.

Open wheel is better off without this guy. Empty tracks and paying to get drivers in cars. Sound familiar. All the hypocrites that left to form the IRL and xenophobic endeavors have now had to eat crow as a result of their greed.

All they could see was American companies sponsoring American drivers in roundy round racing like NASCAR. Well , it didn't work and won't and now they started looking at China.

The right decision last year would have been to merge with Champcar. Have KK as the CEO and allow the venues such as Mexico, the Low Countries , China and Australia to remain.

With what is happening in F1, Champ Car would be a steal for any sponsor and it would not take Long for Network to pick it up. Although my proviso would be to make sure that Versus had the time and the production. I want to see Viso, Fisher, Wilson and others. Even Dario is beginning to annoy me.

Come on PT. Bye Bye TG

[call_me_andrew]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090527/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ne/car_irl_george

This is the part of the Yahoo/AP version that really caught my attention.


But the cost to keep the track in good condition can be astronomical.

"This place wakes up every morning and eats money," George told local TV reporters. "We spend a lot of money keeping it in the condition we do. Certainly the Indy Racing League has in the past required a lot of capital to keep it going when there was two competing series — and a lot of money was spent last year trying to unify."

I had no idea IMS has been hemorrhaging cash.

And considering how rough the track's pavement is on COT tires, relations between IMS and NASCAR have become strained. I wonder how expensive it would be to apply a sealer to the track.

[SarahFan]

and a side note.....

yesterdays drama certainly detracted folks from the fact that the 2009 I500 was the lowest rated since it began being televised live......



*Ken ducks and weaves and runs like the wind........................

[chuck34]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090527/ap_on_sp_au_ra_ne/car_irl_george

This is the part of the Yahoo/AP version that really caught my attention.



I had no idea IMS has been hemorrhaging cash.

And considering how rough the track's pavement is on COT tires, relations between IMS and NASCAR have become strained. I wonder how expensive it would be to apply a sealer to the track.

Sorry, I know this is a side issue, but I can't let it go. The TRACK is not rough on the COT tires. The COT is rough on the tires. The track has not changed in the last few years (perhaps it is even less abrasive). The COT is too heavy, has too much right side weight, and has too high a CG. NASCAR could fix this issue quick and easy, allow the teams to run more left side weight (55-60%) and the problem goes away.

This is not the TRACK'S fault.

[SarahFan]

'alot of money was spent trying to unify'-TG

net result was taking 2 series with 36 cars to 1 series with 21...

[nigelred5]

IMS doesn't need to do a thing to the track surface. GOODYEAR simply needs to get their heads out of their backside and make a tire that doesn't disintegrate. Remeber, Goodyear's tire problems are far far from exclusive to IMS. Their NASCAR tires and the COT are crap, and unfortunately, my current experience with their road tires isn't much different. I totally regret buying the Goodyears currently on my S4.

HEMORRHAGING cash? Look at the physical plant costs alone. That is one huge piece of property to maintain, and IMS is kept in very good condition. Also as any home owner knows, an old girl is far more capital intensive to maintain, and with the demands of 3 race events, that demand and wear and tear is far greater than in the past with only one race. The construction of the F1 facilities and then the configuration of the road coursefor Moto GP was no small project if one looks at what was actually done. Ever seen what it costs to maintain a golf course on a monthly basis? All of the changes and improvements TG has made over the last 15-20 years have been remarkable if not controversial. IMHO, the current track looks far better than the track I first visited in '91. As an unabashed critic as I am of TG as it relates to the IRL, as a track manager, I'd admittedly give TG pretty high marks. Yeah, he smashed a lot of traditions, but the track has never looked better and was horribly underutilized.

The problems come in when one looks at the costs of supporting a marginal professional race series for 14 years on the back of that single facility. If I were in the family, I would have hauled in those reins long ago. The effects of the economy reach far and wide. They may not be all waltzing around in Prada, but in the end, they have known well what has been going on and have allowed it to happen. I think the economy is simply really causing folks at all levels to re-evaluate their long term cash flow, and the first thing you do is look at income and expenses. It's pretty evident the IRL is a HUGE drain on their coffers. If you were going to re-allocate management to control costs, bringing in a hired gun to run a facility with a proven track record and very well established traditions is the easy person to replace IMHO. Give TG his series, concentrate on the task at hand and make it work. I still doubt we've heard the last of this.

As far as the Brickyard race, NASCAR needs to learn, the car needs to be changed to suit the track, not vice versa. If Goodyear has problems with tires at ten-12 tracks, year after year, It's not the track, it's the tires and the car. I won't even get into the whole COT. Brian France is worse than TG. Let the teams work on the dang cars. Teh COT is horrible and now, so is the racing. I've watched exactly 1 race this year, and I'm apparently not alone. If anyone thought it was as manipulated as the WWF in the before, it's setting all new highs (or lows) with the COT.

I'm suprized his family hasn't yanked the rug out from under his feet as well.

[rabf1]

Having watched the video of the press conference, my impression is that TG was lying at least to some extent or at least not telling the full and accurate story. Something is going on.

[dataman1]

Having watched the video of the press conference, my impression is that TG was lying at least to some extent or at least not telling the full and accurate story. Something is going on.

I agree. He seemed to be ducking and weaving just like a pro boxer.

[Jag_Warrior]

How many times did he say, "I don't know"?

:D

[The instant classic]

How many times did he say, "I don't know"?

:D
i dont know

[SarahFan]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SosO3XDTo8k

[DBell]

How many times did he say, "I don't know"?

:D

I'm drunk as a skunk if that tells you anything. :D

[methanolHuffer]

Having watched the video of the press conference, my impression is that TG was lying at least to some extent or at least not telling the full and accurate story. Something is going on.

I've never seen him act any other way. I'm not taking a jab at him nor defending him - that's pretty much what he does.

[Wilf]

I've never seen him act any other way. I'm not taking a jab at him nor defending him - that's pretty much what he does.
TG is as good at speaking in public as Robin is at getting the real story out.

No doubt, something is going on, but Robin said it was a done deal.

I'm wondering if one of TG's sisters didn't throw a tantrum after not getting what she wanted at the board meeting and told Robin that Tony was ousted. Robin didn't protect himself by getting either a confirmation from another source or a denial from the corporation. He posted and then Bruce Martin folllowed suit.

SpeedTV.com has allowed the story to be edited at least once without noting any changes were made; the original posting time is still attached to the amended story. I guess that way you don't have to retract anything; you just make believe it never occurred. Reminds of "did not!, did too!" arguments of little children.

It's going to be an interesting weekend at the Milwaukee Mile.

[the bro]

When asked if a vote had been taken to have him removed, he says maybe there was some other meeting he was not aware of. Isn't this a rather curious statement to make? Says it twice during the interview.

[Rex Monaco]

I wish work wasn't so busy. I'm missing the good stuff!

Assuming that he is ousted as the CEO of IMS, I don't think it'd make much difference to the Speedway or the IRL. At least not in the near term.

If he is told to focus 100% on the IRL and it doesn't make money, then he'll have problems.

[Chaparral66]

I just checked in with well known reporter Gordon Kirby who says Robin Miller's story is correct. He says to check carefully the written statements released by IMS's PR dept. concerning the goings on of the IMS board, and they are carefully preparing for the transition to post TG at IMS. Monitor this deal over the next few weeks and the real story will emerge. It seems that all the money TG was spending to fight CART/Champ Car is going to come back to haunt him, leaving a very harsh verdict from history when this chapter is finally written.

[nigelred5]

I still believe the story, I suspe ctRM was simply fed incorrect or incomplete information regarding the timing of the change and he just rushed the story in what was probably an overwhelming orgasm of satisfaction, knowing his most hated individual was about to have the keys to the bank yanked from his pockets.

[Chaparral66]

Robin Miller didn't do anything different from what any reporter would do with a pressure cooker story like that, which is to report it as soon as he gets it. And I'm sure he checked with other sources before releasing it. Last thing someone in his position wants to do is be embarrassed. According to my friend, he's right on the money. If I remember correctly, he called Champ Car on a few things at a pre-season spring training run at Laguna Seca which he took a lot of grief for, until it became clear as the season progressed he was right on most of it.

[call_me_andrew]

IMS doesn't need to do a thing to the track surface. GOODYEAR simply needs to get their heads out of their backside and make a tire that doesn't disintegrate. Remeber, Goodyear's tire problems are far far from exclusive to IMS. Their NASCAR tires and the COT are crap, and unfortunately, my current experience with their road tires isn't much different. I totally regret buying the Goodyears currently on my S4.

I know Goodyear makes a lot of crappy tires and I know the COT sucks, but even before the COT Goodyear has been having the same problem with the track since it was repaved. The difference is that it the problem would go away once the track rubbered in. With the COT, it won't rubber in. The rubber sheds off the tire as dust (instead of big marbles) and doesn't stick to the track.

[Mark in Oshawa]

First off, I was dying a slow death knowing all this was going on and I was away from my computer. Something like this doesn't happen every day.

Second. It seems Robin's story kind of changed the tone of the IMS statement. There was likely a LOT of truth in it and I suspect one of the sisters or someone connected to them is the source. Is Robin happy about all of this? I think part of him is very happy to exact revenge on Tony. Remember George's treatment of Robin in the aftermath of the split. Robin wasn't even allowed on the property and it is rumoured Tony's influence is one of the reason's Robin lost his job at the Indy Star. You can bet your last buck Robin is enjoying this on some level.

Now, From what I saw of the official statement and how most of the journalistic racing writers such as Gordon Kirby are backing Robin says to me that he had the essence of the story right, and when the board realized how bad they looked, some tap dancing and spin was created. Lets face it, the Hulman's don't want to look like they just kicked him to the curb.

Listen, I have no problem with what Tony did with the Speedway. I think it is one of the most beautiful race plants anywhere and it may eat money, but it can make 30 million in one afternoon too. Where I am concerned is his mother letting him stay with the IRL and they are saying "it has the most potential for growth". Good god woman, this guy drove the product right into the iceberg. He has learned from some of his errors, but when you have his handpicked guy yelling like crazy to stop Helio from climbing the fence, it is clear to me that the regime running the IRL still hasn't learned enough.

This sport is in a fight for its life and we still have it run by the same guy who created most of the issues in the first place.

So now we have Humpy rumours around Indy. He was on NASCAR Sirius 128 outlet this morning (Thursday) and denied like crazy he was anything but a spectator and spent an inordinate amount of time dumping on Bruton Smith. That says to me Humpy is trying to distract us from the fact he IS considering going up to the Hoosier state and fixing some part of this mess.

Robin himself came on to the afternoon show and basically stood by the gist of the story, that Tony will be going, if not today, but at some point this year. He thinks it is all spin and PR that is being put out now. Robin basically stated that not everything is what it seems at IMS and we will see over the summer the results.

I wont bet against him. One thing is for sure, right or wrong, he covers the sport as someone who loves it, but he wont stand there and lie about his feelings for what is going on. NASCAR lost one of those guys when David Poole died but they have others; We only have Robin and occasionally Gordon Kirby. That isnt' enough.....

[Gluaistean]

Yeah, because full fields of mostly sponsored cars, a 36-race schedule, and competitive passing on oval tracks would be such a horror to endure.


Yes, it absolutely would. It's difficult enough to watch now. Coyne, NHL, KV and Conquest are my draw and nothing else.

[Gluaistean]

OMG Miller ... huge credibility gaff

Echoes of Dan Rather and the Bush debacle. And look what happened to poor Dan

Yes, the Bush debacle that was never proven to be false and Rather thrown under the bus because CBS would not support him.

Miller is fine.

[Chaparral66]

I agree with you, Mark, that what Our Good friend Tony George did at the speedway was good business. Bringing NASCAR for the Brickyard 400, despite what it did to tradition (as if speedway can't evolve and grow) was brilliant, and an instant cash cow. While I was as critical of him as anyone, I applauded him bringing back Formula 1 only to see Our Other Good Friend Bernie Ecceclstone try to screw him any way he could. I'm glad he told BE to take a hike.

The problem is that the money coming in from the Brickyard and F1 (during the first 4 years of profits) went into fighting CART/Champ Car and it was only a matter of time before the family would ask "is this worth it?". TG finally got his way, to an extent, with The Three Amigos but it cost open wheel racing its soul and legions of fans.

Don't anyone believe that any dip in tickets sold or TV ratings dive in 2009 had much to do with this. This has been coming for a long time, ever since the 23 & 8 scandal and the US 500 debacle; along with it the loss of great venues like Michigan, Fontana, Laguna Seca, Cleveland, Mid Ohio, Road America, Montreal, and Australia, just to name a few.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chap, when I heard the ladies in his family were finally holding him to account, I thought they were a little late to the party. No one with half a brain in business would advocate what he did, yet he did it, and I will credit him only with the guts to keep spending money to keep the IRL afloat until he could wear CART out.

The Speedway has to always be the center piece of this series, as we all learned, but the one thing people have to realize is the series has to make sense for the competitors, the track owners, and still draw fans. In today's economy, I am worried the patient may be too sick to live without that IMS life support.

Meanwhile, the usual suspects keep taking shots at Miller. What they fail to realize is before the summer is out, the gist of his story will be true. He didn't wake up this week and decide to immolate his career on trying to get rid of Tony. A little bird who is reliable told him all this, and then the family reneged in the public statement. They also by the way, didn't leak this to make Robin look bad. I have a sneaking thought they were embarassed by Robin's speed in getting the story out and the heat they were taking for it.

THey are allowing Tony to save face....but his days of spending money like mad are over. Apparently the Speedway owns two corporate jets. WHY? God only knows what else will be sold out the door as time goes on.

[Chaparral66]

My thing about this is the timing. TG's family should have seen the handwriting on the wall about this years ago, before open wheel racing fell into life support. Because of a lack of action, they have some accountability in this mess almost as much as TG does.

[SportscarBruce]

Perhaps Speed Channel should report more on the possibility of GM departing NASCAR and less on RM's latest TG fantasy....

[Hondo]

I haven't watched or cared about the Indy 500 since the split. I continued to watch CART/Champcar for awhile but then gave up on it. Before the split, I believe CART was close to giving F1 a run for it's money.

It seems I recall when the CART teams did decide to field Indy entries for sponsors or other reasons, those CART drivers took the IRL to school on their own showplace track with their own cars. That summed up the IRL product pretty well I thought.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Chap, Fiero, I felt pretty similar to you guys. Tony was in this to get control of the sport, and his product and eventually the whole OW product began to suffer.

The chickens are coming home to roost...but I don't feel any joy in it.

[DBell]

Chap, Fiero, I felt pretty similar to you guys. Tony was in this to get control of the sport, and his product and eventually the whole OW product began to suffer.

The chickens are coming home to roost...but I don't feel any joy in it.


Whether anyone feels joy in it or not would depend on how personal each person has made it for themselves. But that aside, Mark do you have any faith TG and his hand picked organization can lead Indy car back to a prosperous state? For me, I don't. I don't know what the future is going to bring if serious changes are brought about, but at least with change, the possibility of Indycar making a comeback may exist. Under the current organization, I'm pessimistic.

[Chaparral66]

Whether anyone feels joy in it or not would depend on how personal each person has made it for themselves. But that aside, Mark do you have any faith TG and his hand picked organization can lead Indy car back to a prosperous state? For me, I don't. I don't know what the future is going to bring if serious changes are brought about, but at least with change, the possibility of Indycar making a comeback may exist. Under the current organization, I'm pessimistic.

This is the time for something to happen isn't it? If Jeremy Mayfield brings a class action lawsuit against NASCAR for their (lack of) banned substance policy, open wheel could take back some of what they lost if they have some good people in there making some decisions. Could that someone be Humpy Wheeler who knows how to promote? Maybe, but he's not exactly an open wheel guy...

[champcarray]

I'm with you, DBell: I dont' have faith that TG can lead Indy racing back to prosperity, let along its former glory. He has spent years focusing on cost contrainment tactics, but it appears that the IRL wasn't rolling in cash during our economy's good times. Why would this model work now? Having a series that attacts top drivers, teams, manufacturers/suppliers, and advertisers -- and loyal fans -- is not cheap.

[SarahFan]

I haven't watched or cared about the Indy 500 since the split. I continued to watch CART/Champcar for awhile but then gave up on it. Before the split, I believe CART was close to giving F1 a run for it's money.

It seems I recall when the CART teams did decide to field Indy entries for sponsors or other reasons, those CART drivers took the IRL to school on their own showplace track with their own cars. That summed up the IRL product pretty well I thought.


????

this has to do what with the thread?

[SportscarBruce]

In an economic climate which has seen empty seats multiplying at NASCAR events and sponsors jumping off like fleas on a dying dog Indycar has added sponsors, had more drivers fighting for 33 spots since the split, and filled the IMS grandstands to 95% capacity, and in all this the Rush Limbaugh of Open Wheel writes in the NewMax of racing that Tony George is about to get the boot....and the Crapies/NeckcarHeads go for it...ha ha ha...

[CCWS77]

The Speedway has to always be the center piece of this series, as we all learned, but the one thing people have to realize is the series has to make sense for the competitors, the track owners, and still draw fans. In today's economy, I am worried the patient may be too sick to live without that IMS life support.

Is that what we learned? I thought it was that trying to run a series for the purpose of being a grid filler for a single grand event is untenable. Maybe someone should try running a series that is NOT just all about Indy, and yet still goes there. Then maybe there would then be some success. That hasn't been done in what, 13 years?

[Lousada]

In an economic climate which has seen empty seats multiplying at NASCAR events and sponsors jumping off like fleas on a dying dog Indycar has added sponsors, had more drivers fighting for 33 spots since the split, and filled the IMS grandstands to 95% capacity, and in all this the Rush Limbaugh of Open Wheel writes in the NewMax of racing that Tony George is about to get the boot....and the Crapies/NeckcarHeads go for it...ha ha ha...

He is supposedly getting the boot from IMS, not from the IRL. Perhaps the family is not so worried about the IRL and the 500, but more worried about the 400 and the motorace. How are ticketsales doing for the by400 after last years debacle? Perhaps that's why they want Humpy Wheeler????

[Mark in Oshawa]

Whether anyone feels joy in it or not would depend on how personal each person has made it for themselves. But that aside, Mark do you have any faith TG and his hand picked organization can lead Indy car back to a prosperous state? For me, I don't. I don't know what the future is going to bring if serious changes are brought about, but at least with change, the possibility of Indycar making a comeback may exist. Under the current organization, I'm pessimistic.

I had some faith last year because at least I figured we had momentum with the merger (the fact Tony agreed to a merger that at least gave the CCWS crowd an honourable way to save face), and a misplaced view that Brian Barnhart knew what he was doing. I wasn't sold on Tony's marketing and sales, but I was cautiously optimistic he may have learned something. This year, I am less so, but I don't know what can be done in this economic climate. My whole point, and always was that the seeds of this mess always went back to his original jihad to rule the OW world in North America. This sport was not without fault in 1994, but it didn't deserve the last decade and a half.

I have no faith in Tony personally to understand the series, and it is why I find it troubling they wont let him run the Speedway in the future it seems, but they want him running the IRL. My god, he has no idea on what to do with the IRL, it is the reason he is spending money like water. The Speedway makes money, and he has done a great job keeping it a showpiece. That is what he knows. Marketing of a series? Understanding Racing from the spectator at home, the team owner, or the fan in the stand? He doesn't grasp these realities and he should have handed the series over to someone who does a long time ago.

It was an ancedote that RM told on Wind Tunnel a few years back that convinced me Tony doesn't get it. RM reported on TG getting the team owners/managers together for a pre-season meeting and they were on him for all the costs of racing, and Tony scolded them for spending money on hospitality. He of course thought they were doing all of this just for fun, when in reality the hospitality aspect is the payback to the sponsors for signing LARGE checks to allow you to run. He didn't grasp the concept. THAT my friends is the thinking that has brought us to this point.

I have always said it, and sometimes bitten my tongue, but TG has not learned enough from his mistakes these past 14 years. He does not understand this sport in a manner that leads me to believe he can lead it. I have been quiet the last year on this because I wanted to be wrong in that he had learned, but I don't think he has.

Nice man, nice race track, give up being a series manager.....

Humpy Wheeler would do wonders. Everyone knocks his lack of "OW" pedigree, but the guy is a master promoter and he knows a good idea when he see's it. I guarntee you that if he was running IMS this year, the second Brian Barnhart tried to stop Helio from climbing that fence, the old boxer would be in Brian's face telling him that unless he wanted his jaw around his ear, to shut his trap and let the man climb the fence..... Humpy knows how to put on a show, and THAT is what the Indy 500 and the IRL NEEDS.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Perhaps Speed Channel should report more on the possibility of GM departing NASCAR and less on RM's latest TG fantasy....

Bruce...you hate Robin don't you? Just admit it....and remember he has been right either totally or partially pretty much all the time, and he is usually ahead of the story.

People don't like Robin are usually just the ones who refuse to believe what they don't want to happen is happening....

[SarahFan]

People don't like Robin are usually just the ones who refuse to believe what they don't want to happen is happening....

sounds like posters who are upset with other posters for posting TV ratings

[Bob Riebe]

In an economic climate which has seen empty seats multiplying at NASCAR events and sponsors jumping off like fleas on a dying dog Indycar has added sponsors, had more drivers fighting for 33 spots since the split, and filled the IMS grandstands to 95% capacity, and in all this the Rush Limbaugh of Open Wheel writes in the NewMax of racing that Tony George is about to get the boot....and the Crapies/NeckcarHeads go for it...ha ha ha...
If Miller had the knowledge of motorsports that Limbaugh has of political science, France and Ecclestone would be licking his shoe-laces.

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="Mark in Oshawa"]I had some faith last year because at least This sport was not without fault in 1994, but it didn't deserve the last decade and a half.
The sport deserved it, many of the loyal fans did not.

it seems, but they want him running the IRL.
Maybe that is because many/some WANT the IRL to go away.

It was an ancedote that RM told on Wind Tunnel a few years back that convinced me Tony doesn't get it. RM reported on TG getting the team owners/managers together for a pre-season meeting and they were on him for all the costs of racing, and Tony scolded them for spending money on hospitality. He of course thought they were doing all of this just for fun, when in reality the hospitality aspect is the payback to the sponsors for signing LARGE checks to allow you to run. He didn't grasp the concept. THAT my friends is the thinking that has brought us to this point.

[garyshell]

If Miller had the knowledge of motorsports that Limbaugh has of political science, France and Ecclestone would be licking his shoe-laces.


Did you really just use the words knowledge and Limbaugh in the same sentence? :eek:

Gary

[Bob Riebe]

Did you really just use the words knowledge and Limbaugh in the same sentence? :eek:

Gary
He has forgotten more about poitical functioning than you, Dem., or it seems the general populace, will ever know.
Proven by the fear Dem. have shown in dealing with him.


I love it, they say-- don't listen to him, he is not important, well, if one is not important, then it is asininely stupid to tell people to not listen to that one.

Of course the Dem. always fall back on calling, those who do something they do not like, vilely hateful and prejudiced names, proving these people they attack are causing them to leave brown streaks in their under-pants.

[SarahFan]

He has forgotten more about poitical functioning than you, Dem., or it seems the general populace, will ever know.
Proven by the fear Dem. have shown in dealing with him.


I love it, they say-- don't listen to him, he is not important, well, if one is not important, then it is asininely stupid to tell people to not listen to that one.

Of course the Dem. always fall back on calling, those who do something they do not like, vilely hateful and prejudiced names, proving these people they attack are causing them to leave brown streaks in their under-pants.

what I really find interesting is the folks that can't understand guys like rush are nothing more than actors playing a part..

might as well be a cartoon character

[Chaparral66]

I had some faith last year because at least I figured we had momentum with the merger (the fact Tony agreed to a merger that at least gave the CCWS crowd an honourable way to save face), and a misplaced view that Brian Barnhart knew what he was doing. I wasn't sold on Tony's marketing and sales, but I was cautiously optimistic he may have learned something. This year, I am less so, but I don't know what can be done in this economic climate. My whole point, and always was that the seeds of this mess always went back to his original jihad to rule the OW world in North America. This sport was not without fault in 1994, but it didn't deserve the last decade and a half.

I have no faith in Tony personally to understand the series, and it is why I find it troubling they wont let him run the Speedway in the future it seems, but they want him running the IRL. My god, he has no idea on what to do with the IRL, it is the reason he is spending money like water. The Speedway makes money, and he has done a great job keeping it a showpiece. That is what he knows. Marketing of a series? Understanding Racing from the spectator at home, the team owner, or the fan in the stand? He doesn't grasp these realities and he should have handed the series over to someone who does a long time ago.

It was an ancedote that RM told on Wind Tunnel a few years back that convinced me Tony doesn't get it. RM reported on TG getting the team owners/managers together for a pre-season meeting and they were on him for all the costs of racing, and Tony scolded them for spending money on hospitality. He of course thought they were doing all of this just for fun, when in reality the hospitality aspect is the payback to the sponsors for signing LARGE checks to allow you to run. He didn't grasp the concept. THAT my friends is the thinking that has brought us to this point.

I have always said it, and sometimes bitten my tongue, but TG has not learned enough from his mistakes these past 14 years. He does not understand this sport in a manner that leads me to believe he can lead it. I have been quiet the last year on this because I wanted to be wrong in that he had learned, but I don't think he has.

Nice man, nice race track, give up being a series manager.....

Humpy Wheeler would do wonders. Everyone knocks his lack of "OW" pedigree, but the guy is a master promoter and he knows a good idea when he see's it. I guarntee you that if he was running IMS this year, the second Brian Barnhart tried to stop Helio from climbing that fence, the old boxer would be in Brian's face telling him that unless he wanted his jaw around his ear, to shut his trap and let the man climb the fence..... Humpy knows how to put on a show, and THAT is what the Indy 500 and the IRL NEEDS.

I agree. Humpy Wheeler has the common sense to understand the fans love seeing Helio climb the fence; it's his tradition that is catching on in other areas of racing. That's what get the photographers' attention, which what gets seen in the media. Humpy also has a charm and wit about him that Barnhart doesn't have, and that would help in getting sponsors to listen to his presentation.

BTW, Comedian Rush Limbaugh is to knowledge what a butcher is to open heart surgery.

[jackmart]

idk why but i can't read the orginal article can someone paste it in this thread please?

[The instant classic]

idk why but i can't read the orginal article can someone paste it in this thread please?
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-tony-george-ousted-from-ims/

[jackmart]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-tony-george-ousted-from-ims/

do you have to be a memebr bc I wanted someone to copy and paste the words not the link bc the link brings up a blank page for me.

[garyshell]

He has forgotten more about poitical functioning than you, Dem., or it seems the general populace, will ever know.
Proven by the fear Dem. have shown in dealing with him.


I love it, they say-- don't listen to him, he is not important, well, if one is not important, then it is asininely stupid to tell people to not listen to that one.

Of course the Dem. always fall back on calling, those who do something they do not like, vilely hateful and prejudiced names, proving these people they attack are causing them to leave brown streaks in their under-pants.


Uh huh, sure. If you say so. :eek:

Gary

[SportscarBruce]

He is supposedly getting the boot from IMS, not from the IRL. Perhaps the family is not so worried about the IRL and the 500, but more worried about the 400 and the motorace. How are ticketsales doing for the by400 after last years debacle? Perhaps that's why they want Humpy Wheeler????

If anybody is getting "the boot" due to last year's BY 400 by rights it should be Brian France and his COT POS. How many years did NASCAR and Goodyear run successful 400 mile races at the Speedway prior to last year? 14 or or so? The 2005 edition ran on the coarse, diamond ground surface of that year.

Despite all the spinning and finger-pointing by NASCAR TV press from 2008 the truth is inescapable once all the factors are examined, the COT design was responsible. Brian France was responsible. Not the IMS. Not Tony George. Brian France.

Plus, if ticket sales are lagging for the BY 400 that is due to the product scheduled to race on that date. The Indy 500 practically sold out, it did so with a mere fraction of the promotional effort NASCAR enjoys across multiple network ownership groups (networks who actually practice cross-promotion, unlike ABC's non-existant cooperation with Versus and Indycar).

Again, the buck stops with Brian France on this one. Not IMS. Not Tony George. BRAIN FRANCE.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum baloney....

[jackmart]

Ok still no idea what's going on bc I can't read the article but I found this on indycar.com

Statement from IndyCar Series team owners:
During the past week there have been many rumors and innuendos about our CEO Tony George. We, the IndyCar team owners, want to express our full support to Tony. As an innovator and leader of our sport, he continually strives to help and improve IndyCar racing, and for that we are exceptionally grateful.
A.J. Foyt Racing
Andretti Green Racing
Dale Coyne Racing
Dreyer and Reinbold Racing
HVM Racing
KV Racing Technology
Luczo Dragon Racing
Newman/Haas/Lanigan Racing
Panther Racing
Target Chip Ganassi Racing
Team 3G
Team Penske

http://www.indycar.com/news/?story_id=14193

[beachbum]

If anybody is getting "the boot" due to last year's BY 400 by rights it should be Brian France and his COT POS. How many years did NASCAR and Goodyear run successful 400 mile races at the Speedway prior to last year? 14 or or so? The 2005 edition ran on the coarse, diamond ground surface of that year.

Despite all the spinning and finger-pointing by NASCAR TV press from 2008 the truth is inescapable once all the factors are examined, the COT design was responsible. Brian France was responsible. Not the IMS. Not Tony George. Brian France.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled forum baloney....I agree, it seems that some fans just need any excuse to blame TG for everything even when he had noting to due with the mess. I think Brian France shared a lot of blame for the debacle, but not for the reasons mentioned. IHMO, the problem is Goodyear, and France and the rest of the N-Car management just lets it off the hook almost every time. Add in ridiculous tire size rules, and failure is inevitable.

The COT isn't loved by most fans, even though it is much safer and looks like a car, unlike the old car that even DW said looked like a twisted piece of soap. But Goodyear has been extremely slow to build tires to handle the stresses. When it was suggested by a number of knowledgeable sources that a wider tire would help, Goodyear responded with a statement that it would take at least a year just to test a bigger diameter tire. First no one suggested a bigger diameter tire and a year? You are a tire company and should be able to sim any combination very quickly. A real tire company could probably have test tires in a couple months at the most. (FYI, I have Goodyears on 2 personal cars)

Brian France IHMO is a perfect example of nepotism gone bad. Unlike the previous France generations, he seems almost totally clueless about racing. If he wasn't a France, he wouldn't even get a shot at office staff.

[SarahFan]

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-a-tough-week-at-16th-and-georgetown

[SarahFan]

http://www.indystar.com/article/20090531/SPORTS15/905310376/1034/SPORTS15/For+George++fine-tuning+his+work+day+is+a+good+thing

[NickFalzone]

I agree that the COT is the problem, particularly the way it's been developed in the last year and a half. But I can guarantee that another tire company would find a compound that worked with the COT. If France said either get the tire right this year or you're out, they'd have something. But Goodyear knows that they can get away with a 15-20 lap tire this year, and that's what they're going to provide, a moderate improvement.

[SarahFan]

what makes no sense to me....I dont follow nascar at all so perhaps I'm missing part of the story line here..


but why would goodyear be OK with a crappy tire that only lasts a partial stint... that can't good for sales Monday morning

[NickFalzone]

Drivers were complaining about the tires on at least 4 tracks last year, starting with Tony Stewart's very vocal complaints at Atlanta and it continued through Indy. I don't think Goodyear goes into any race thinking "yeah, this tire is probably going to suck at this track" but, at least according to Stewart, their engineering is so behind Firestone and other manufacturers that what they think is a good tire actually is not. I'm far from a tire expert though, and drivers are known to find a scapegoat when they're not happy with the racing.

[Jag_Warrior]

do you have to be a memebr bc I wanted someone to copy and paste the words not the link bc the link brings up a blank page for me.

It may have to do with your internet privacy settings. Speed Channel's website loads cookies and crap galore - it's terrible what they've done to that site. It's the messiest and sloppiest site that I've seen. It's a site that I very seldom go to anymore, so I haven't changed the settings and even though I am a member, I'm getting a blank page in the center too.

[SarahFan]

http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/racing/indycar/columns/story?columnist=blount_terry&id=4216105

[SarahFan]

If things don't improve, George could try to sell the IRL, but who would buy it? Roger Penske, maybe? And what would it take to make it work?

"Leadership all around," said one track promoter who didn't want to be identified. "Professionals -- full-time, proven sales people and marketing people. True PR pros; broadcasting experts; and most of all, a single, solitary leader.

"These people have to come from auto racing or pro sports at least -- big-name people that you would recognize. Right now they are all amateurs."

[Jag_Warrior]

Ouch...

[NickFalzone]

I think Tony has done a good job at IMS, attendance has stayed even or improved in the last 2 years despite the economy. The smart move seems to be give Tony IMS and get some PR management pros to handle the IRL. The opposite sounds like a disaster to me.

[SarahFan]

I think Tony has done a good job at IMS, attendance has stayed even or improved in the last 2 years despite the economy. The smart move seems to be give Tony IMS and get some PR management pros to handle the IRL. The opposite sounds like a disaster to me.


I couldn't agree more

[NickFalzone]

"Some track promoters feel the IRL hasn't done enough to support other races because George felt it would detract from the Indy 500. If so, it's flawed logic. One great event can't keep a league viable."

If this is true, and everything going back to the split suggests it is, then I would be very concerned if TG was solely in charge of the series that for many years he's simply used as a prop for the 500. NASCAR certainly benefits from Daytona (and Talladega to a similar extent) but their series has a very solid support for every race on the calendar. I do feel like a lot of IRL races are treated as second-rate events. The IRL has even admitted this, and said it's up to the local promoters to get the races in peoples faces... well, it's not working.

[garyshell]

I think Tony has done a good job at IMS, attendance has stayed even or improved in the last 2 years despite the economy.

How would we know if attendance is up, down or unchanged? The track refuses to EVER give out those stats. I'd say from the TV coverage showing all the empty seats in the grandstands behind pit lane, it would be difficult to say they were up this year, unless there was a bumper crop in the infield. The latter being impossible to guess from the TV coverage. So maybe they were up, but to state this as if it were FACT is just not possible.

Gary

[SarahFan]

How would we know if attendance is up, down or unchanged? The track refuses to EVER give out those stats. I'd say from the TV coverage showing all the empty seats in the grandstands behind pit lane, it would be difficult to say they were up this year, unless there was a bumper crop in the infield. The latter being impossible to guess from the TV coverage. So maybe they were up, but to state this as if it were FACT is just not possible.

Gary

from where I was sitting (across from pit in)....i could see all the way from turn 3 thru 4......the infield corner 'burm' in 4....all the way down inside of the main straight... and the what can be decieving becuase it's a 'across shot' of the main grand stands.... and turn one into the first short chute...

compared to the screen grabs from the telecasts the past 2 years which showed huge gaps of aluminum it certainly looked like attendance was up this year

[Gluaistean]

He has forgotten more about poitical functioning than you, Dem., or it seems the general populace, will ever know.
Proven by the fear Dem. have shown in dealing with him.


I love it, they say-- don't listen to him, he is not important, well, if one is not important, then it is asininely stupid to tell people to not listen to that one.

Of course the Dem. always fall back on calling, those who do something they do not like, vilely hateful and prejudiced names, proving these people they attack are causing them to leave brown streaks in their under-pants.

Someone answers your post , then you resort to proclaiming to know their political allegiance by using the derogatory Dem instead of democrat.

As for Limbaugh, he knows nothing of political science and the mere fact that you think/believe he does is proof enough on it's own.

Recall "send them down the river" relating to drug users


"Go take those bones out of your nose" to a black caller.

"I hope he fails" regarding the sitting president"

I have many more of the $40 milllion dollar a year joke for a political whatever he is. They don't call his listeners, dittoheads for nothing. I'd much prefer bobbleheads.

As for Miller. His piece yesterday sums most everything up.

[chuck34]

from where I was sitting (across from pit in)....i could see all the way from turn 3 thru 4......the infield corner 'burm' in 4....all the way down inside of the main straight... and the what can be decieving becuase it's a 'across shot' of the main grand stands.... and turn one into the first short chute...

compared to the screen grabs from the telecasts the past 2 years which showed huge gaps of aluminum it certainly looked like attendance was up this year

I was in the same seats this year and last. There are in the top of the North Vista. I can see 3-4-some of the front straight. What I saw was that the seats were about the same level of "fill" this year and last. But the infield this year was absolutely packed. So I would say attendance was up at least a bit. Plus it took like 4 hours to get from 65 to the north 40 on 30th street. Last year it took less than an hour.

[Chaparral66]

I think it's a crapshoot either way, whether TG runs IMS or the IRL. But maybe if he concentrates on one or the other, he might come through. Come to think of it, maybe he'd be better off running the IRL. If he ran IMS, and he percieved the people who would run the racing series were beginning to de-emphasize Indy, we might go through this BS all over again...his mother and sisters are starting to look very sharp.

[Jag_Warrior]

Chaparral66,

I think that's why the team owners wrote that letter in support of Tony George. I don't think that they're all in love with him. But if he gets taken out at IMS, how will they race? Where will they race? After all the years of speculation back & forth, we've recently had confirmation that the IRL has been a money loser since Day 1. And Tony himself has now admited that his sisters have never given the IRL their full and consistent support. So if he loses his ability to fund his pet (money losing) project, his failure to build the IRL into a profitable business, after 15 years of operation, could put the current IRL teams in a very bad spot.

At least for right now, Penske, Ganassi, AGR and ALL the others need Tony to be able to access IMS's "checking account." The IRL, on its own, is basically just another CART/CCWS waiting to happen. And this talk of a title sponsor being just around the corner has been around for years, and has now gotten rather old & tired. The NASCAR truck series found a title sponsor before Craftsman left. The Busch Series is now the Nationwide Series. Grand Am has Rolex. NHRA has Powerade. The IRL is still talking about the prom date that still hasn't happened... but any day now, she's gonna say "yes". The family seems to be at the point of saying "sh## or get off the pot!". As we've said on here before, that's just the free market in action. Though I think the person who used to say that a lot was applying it to CCWS, it applies equally to the IRL or any other business.

IMO, the IRL needs to come to grips with reality. Currently it remind me of Forsythe and several of the CCWS guys refusing lower sponsorship offers because they felt that taking less than $4 or $5 million would "devalue" their teams. Team Owner X: "This is what it costs! I won't take a cent less than what it costs!" Sponsor Y: "Well, I guess that's really nice and all... but I'm going to only offer you what I think it's worth." And we know how that turned out. But in this brave new world, I have a financial term for the IRL and Mr. George to ponder: "mark to market". Learn it. Live it. Love it (painful though it may be).

[garyshell]

Ah, "mark to market". I was a principal in a service bureau for money market funds back during the Carter administration when interest rates went through the roof and dollars under management was doubling each month. That term, "mark to market" rose from the SEC and sent shudders through every portfolio managers bones at the prospect of having to do this on a daily basis. It was sweet music to my ears as it meant my customers were suddenly in NEED for a system to automate that process. But in digress...

I wonder if the series sponsorship or lack thereof is hinging on this point.

Gary

[Chaparral66]

Some good points there, Jag, though I hardly think if the mom and sisters ran TG out of IMS, it's not as if they'd refuse the teams entry into the I500. After all, they need a open wheel series to race there to keep tradition. They don't want to carry on on just the Brickyard 400 alone, do they?

With the ouster iminent of Our Good Friend Tony George, we now have to think of the future of the series. What's gonna happen? If we are to believe the conventional wisdom that TG won the war, in winning did he lose the larger point?

Wouldn't it be funny if mom & sisters said take off altogether to Tony, placed Humpy Wheeler or even Chris Pook in charge of the IRL, and they said, "OK, the new car in 2010 is the recent Panoz designed Champ Car, It's already here, it's battle tested already, let's go with this to save some money. Plus, it just looks better than the eyesore we're currently running. Let's keep a fairly even stack of ovals and roadcourses, and let's get back to Cleveland, Michigan, Fontana, and Australia, to say the least, and let's find a damned title sponsor to take some of this burden off our backs. No, I don't think we qualify for a stimulus package. We have to do this ourselves. The current business model is not working."

Wouldn't that be funny?

[Chaparral66]

Some more good points. But tell me the truth, Indy wouldn't be quite the same without open wheel race cars zooming around it, right?

But since you now have a roadcourse built into the place, you certainly can have other events there in addition to the two major oval events; problem here is if it isn't F1, you probably won't fill the place up, which would lead to a question as to whether having events such as ALMS or Grand Am, even with support events, is worth the expense of putting it on. Bringing in NASCAR with the Brickyard 400 was a calculated gamble that worked well, given NASCAR's rapid gowth at the time. Bringing in anything that lacking in tradition besides really big events is probably a crapshoot.

[Jag_Warrior]

Some good points there, Jag, though I hardly think if the mom and sisters ran TG out of IMS, it's not as if they'd refuse the teams entry into the I500. After all, they need a open wheel series to race there to keep tradition. They don't want to carry on on just the Brickyard 400 alone, do they?

No, I don't think they'd refuse them entry into the Indy 500. What I mean is, the financial support from IMS, that has kept the IRL afloat, could be reduced or cut altogether without Tony being in charge. That is why I think these teams are lining up behind Tony George.

[Chaparral66]

No, I don't think they'd refuse them entry into the Indy 500. What I mean is, the financial support from IMS, that has kept the IRL afloat, could be reduced or cut altogether without Tony being in charge. That is why I think these teams are lining up behind Tony George.

Makes sense. I'm thinking it wouldn't be cut altogether since there needs to be some support, but reduced, even substantially, yeah, that could definitely happen.

Starter: I understand what you're saying about that casual fan, but even the casual fan can tell the difference betwen an open wheel car and stock car, even if they can't talk about it knowledgeably. If they were to watch the Indy 500 with cars other than open wheel, I bet they pick up on something strange and say "This doesn't look right."

[champcarray]

I hear ya, Chap. No matter how uninformed the general public is about the Indy 500 and Indy Car, there is still a general understanding that "Indy 500" means fast, dangerous, open-wheel racing. That's not to say that America couldn't live without the Indy 500, just that any other kinds of cars competing in the race wouldn't be right.

[SarahFan]

http://www.versus.com/nw/article/view/79991/?UserDef=true&catID=2257&tf=bruce_martin.tpl

[Blancvino]

My Question ...

... Is the grandson going to survive this? My thoughts are only a W.A.G.

[Chaparral66]

Sure, he'll survive. If I can paraphrase, I think the family is saying that the IMS bank is closed for the most part. IMS will always support the IRL at some level, but not in an unlimited way as before. TG will run the IRL since it is his brainchild. The only question he has to answer now is, "Who's your daddy?", financially speaking, that is.

Perhaps I should have said, "Hoosier daddy?" :)

[Chaparral66]

Booo! :D

Oh, c'mon, now! Like you wouldn't have said that, LOL!

[indycool]

IMO, Ken's link in post #158 to Bruce Martin's piece seems the most logical. The family seemingly has not been shy about shoveling dollars where they're needed, be it a new grandstand or pagoda at the Speedway, the IRL, Vision Racing or whatever. The company hasn't hesitated to bring people in and try them to reach goals they need. If some type of reorganization is planned at the family level, or structure level, guess I'll watch what happens and draw an opinion from that.

[Chaparral66]

IMO, Ken's link in post #158 to Bruce Martin's piece seems the most logical. The family seemingly has not been shy about shoveling dollars where they're needed, be it a new grandstand or pagoda at the Speedway, the IRL, Vision Racing or whatever. The company hasn't hesitated to bring people in and try them to reach goals they need. If some type of reorganization is planned at the family level, or structure level, guess I'll watch what happens and draw an opinion from that.

Ah, IC, it's been a while. I guess that's all any of us can do. But something must have happened on the board side to set these events, whatever they really are, in motion. Improvments to the racetrack are logical and to be expected, whether for specific events or as part of long term maintenence, but using funds to prop up a series like the IRL have to be looked at a bit differently. I'm very interested to see if Humpy Wheeler shows up at the Brickyard 400 and if anything else reaches the surface by then.

[indycool]

As I read it, it was Humpy's first visit to Indy since 1970 when he was with Firestone.

[Chaparral66]

Have you heard any reports of Humpy and IMS folks talking?

[Jag_Warrior]

So far, that is pure speculation. A good idea perhaps, but when was the last time any one controling a major racing series acted on a good idea? :p

NASCAR and F1 started banning good ideas just a few years ago. But in AOWR? Gee... uh... maybe... :confused: I think I was still wearing a white sport jacket and no socks on weekends, and I only knew about there being one George Bush. Whoever said, "the future is always bright" should have their azz kicked.

[Chaparral66]

So far, that is pure speculation. A good idea perhaps, but when was the last time any one controling a major racing series acted on a good idea? :p

The "TG out" rumor seems to have more basis.

Speculation? That was a question, Starter...

[Chaparral66]

"No" would have been just fine, even though I am waiting for IndyCool, too :D

[beachbum]

There was a rumor flying around a year or so ago that the IRL approached Eddie Gossage. Apparently he is happy right where he is. Besides, considering the pummeling TG and Barnhart get for everything, why would anyone want to put themselves in a position where they would be the subject to the wrath of bloggers and intardnet experts who perpetuate every myth and rumor until it becomes "fact"?

[indycool]

Chap, there didn't appear to be any rumors circling about Humpy joining the IMS staff in connection with the thread topic. All I heard was that, since Humpy didn't have Charlotte to do any more, and it's the Centennial Era at IMS, he was invited to attend for the first time in a long time when it hadn't been possible before, and he did....he was part of another era of Indy car racing when he was with Firestone years ago.

[dataman1]

The only time I have heard Humpy's name mentioned was by Robin Miller on a report during Speed's Sunday call-in show, hosted by Dave Despain. In that report by Robin he threw out Humpy's name as well as Tim Mayer (who recently resigned from ALMS) and said there was speculation that those 2 names were in the mix as a replacement for TG.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think if Humpy was going, he would have been there by now. Humpy doesn't screw around when he wants to do something. That said, I would love to see him take over things up there.

Great thread boys...I was gone 10 days and it took me the better part of an hour to get to the end.

I know Tony still has his job, but things have gone quiet. That means little other than it still could happen.

I think ideally we all want a strong Indy 500 as a jewel in a series of 18 to 20 races, about one third to one half on ovals, in about 4 countries, with numerous engine possibilities and a few chassis. THAT would be idea...and we had it once. Someone wanted all of that under his thumb..and he doesn't have it now...all though he has the illusion of control at this point.

I have no idea where this sport will go in the next year, but we are at the tipping point. I do know this much. The Indy 500 wont die any time soon, but I will tell you that its place is pretty much gone as the top of the racing food chain in North America in any form. It was once the leader...now it is taking a back seat to most of the NASCAR Cup events at Daytona, Darlington, Richmond, Texas, Bristol and yes...the Brickyard 400 in the eyes of many.

Something HAS to happen. Tony cant get this series to where it needs to go, and the stepmom and the sisterhood have finally figured this out and are holding him to account. We just need to wait.

Oh...one more thing.

Rush Limbaugh isn't as smart as he likes to think he is, but he is a damn sight more right ( as in right and wrong ) than his detractors would like to admit. If this wasn't so, the staff of the President of the US of A wouldn't spend so much time attacking him. When you attract that sort of political heat, you must be right on something...

[ClarkFan]

What did Robin say? Yes there will be changes in the future, but that isn't what he said; he said it was a done deal.

Why do we always give Robin a pass; he's no Bill Clinton.

Looks like Robin Miller OWNS you!

[Chaparral66]

I think if Humpy was going, he would have been there by now. Humpy doesn't screw around when he wants to do something. That said, I would love to see him take over things up there.

Great thread boys...I was gone 10 days and it took me the better part of an hour to get to the end.

I know Tony still has his job, but things have gone quiet. That means little other than it still could happen.

I think ideally we all want a strong Indy 500 as a jewel in a series of 18 to 20 races, about one third to one half on ovals, in about 4 countries, with numerous engine possibilities and a few chassis. THAT would be idea...and we had it once. Someone wanted all of that under his thumb..and he doesn't have it now...all though he has the illusion of control at this point.

I have no idea where this sport will go in the next year, but we are at the tipping point. I do know this much. The Indy 500 wont die any time soon, but I will tell you that its place is pretty much gone as the top of the racing food chain in North America in any form. It was once the leader...now it is taking a back seat to most of the NASCAR Cup events at Daytona, Darlington, Richmond, Texas, Bristol and yes...the Brickyard 400 in the eyes of many.

Something HAS to happen. Tony cant get this series to where it needs to go, and the stepmom and the sisterhood have finally figured this out and are holding him to account. We just need to wait.

Oh...one more thing.

Rush Limbaugh isn't as smart as he likes to think he is, but he is a damn sight more right ( as in right and wrong ) than his detractors would like to admit. If this wasn't so, the staff of the President of the US of A wouldn't spend so much time attacking him. When you attract that sort of political heat, you must be right on something...

Just a few points. IC, I hope you'll clue us in on any more details coming out of Indy, especially in the wake of the announcement from IMS. So long, Tony George.

For those of you out there who were so skeptical of Robin Miller (and I'm not accusing anyone in particular), the crow is fully sauteed and marinated and ready for your delectable consumption. With all due respect Mark, it is Robin Miller who is more right than wrong, a thorough reporter who doggedly researches his facts, while Rush Limbaugh sits at his chair on his radio show, creating a fantasy world (while reportedly remaining sober and clean of drugs) from events he sees on the evening news. He openly says he hopes his President fails, one of the most unpatriotic things I have ever heard mentioned by anyone (even John Wayne said he hoped JFK was successful). Obama pretty much leaves him alone, allowing Limbaugh's comments to speak for themselves, which is smart on his part. Obama and his staff only respond to most outrageous lies and gross inaccuracies, which they have to since you don't to just stand there all the time and get beat up without a response. To call Rush Limbaugh an idiot, would be offensive to idiots everywhere.

Robin Miller can take a lot of pride in his reporting on this. Nobody else was even close on this at the time he reported it. Just imagine if the Indy Star hadn't caved into pressure from IMS and Miller was still there and had reported under their banner - they would be bragging about this until the Indiana cows came home.

What we now have to do, as fans of open wheel racing, is consider George's ouster in the larger perspective of what the future holds for open wheel racing, and the IRL in particular. The IMS gravy train is over, the series needs a new chassis (or new chassis', or bring back the Panoz, just get rid of the current ugly cars) and at least two more engine suppliers. What if Honda says "That's it, we're done" at the end of the current contract? Where would that leave Indy Car racing?

I can't help but wonder what would have happened in reunification negotiations if The Three Amigos held on for one more year (I say that even though I was yelling as much as anyone to put it together) or TG was ousted last year. I am sure that is what is going through Kevin Kalkhoven's head right now. I am also sure you would have heard some choice comments by Paul Newman if he had lived to see this happen. You got that 'I told you so' look on your face right now, don'cha Paul?

What is certain in the short term is that now, the IRL will have to find a way to stand on its own two feet. That will be difficult in this economy. The league will still benefit from revenue from race events, that won't stop, but IMS will not catch should it begin to fall. Who out there can come in and right the ship on a better course?

Humpy Wheeler? Hmmm, could be, as promoter. Wait and see.

NASCAR? Hell no. It got what it wanted from the open wheel war, which is now synonym status with the term "racing" here in the USA. Besides, they have an open wheel division, called the Whelen Modified Tour (great racing, the best at any track they go to), and NASCAR pays scant attention to them.
By the way, NASCAR didn't buy Grand Am, NASCAR's Jim France created it with some help from Penske and others.

Roger Penske? Wow, after his helping to form CART in 1979, after very partisan comments at the time the split began, then being drawn back to the irresistable lure of the Indy 500, and full time in the IRL in 2003, and now to take back the series and rebuild it? Wouldn't that be ironic. He could do it, and he certainly has the contacts to bring in a title sponsor which the series desperately needs, but he's got his hands full after the recent aquisition of Saturn from GM. Though he might if he could buy the IRL at a firesale price should the league tumble.

Well, to Our Good Friend Tony George, I can say only this, as I said in another thread. Be careful what you wish for, you might get it. In 2008, you got it. Now you left it, with some help from your sisters.

Was it worth it?

[indycool]

Chap, don't know any more details than appear in the news release. It APPEARS that they have gone to dual managements in each case -- Belskus for the bucks and Chitwood for the operation at IMS and Angstadt for the bucks and Barnhart for the operation at IRL, all answerable to the board of which TG is a member.

Then again, some of it may be TG's decision -- 19 years, 12 of them in a split, the split's fixed, he's content to run his race team. If I had his money, I'd want to go fishin', too, when I wanted to.

[indycool]

I might add that it's not too different from when Bill France Jr. ran NASCAR. Most of the time, the NASCAR administrative staff stayed home and Bill Gazaway was boss of the race track.

[Chaparral66]

Chap, don't know any more details than appear in the news release. It APPEARS that they have gone to dual managements in each case -- Belskus for the bucks and Chitwood for the operation at IMS and Angstadt for the bucks and Barnhart for the operation at IRL, all answerable to the board of which TG is a member.

Then again, some of it may be TG's decision -- 19 years, 12 of them in a split, the split's fixed, he's content to run his race team. If I had his money, I'd want to go fishin', too, when I wanted to.

OK, that certainly seems to be the consensus, based on reports from the Indy Star, ESPN.com, Robin Miller at SPEEDTV.com, and Motorsport.com. Although I am a little perplexed why he left the CEO position at the IRL. My impression is we haven't seen the last chapter in this, maybe more will become clear by the time of the Brickyard 400. Tony George also has yet to, as he promised, present his own statement about the transition, which he said he will do next week. Look forward to hearing from you when that happens, IC.

[Bob Riebe]

I might add that it's not too different from when Bill France Jr. ran NASCAR. Most of the time, the NASCAR administrative staff stayed home and Bill Gazaway was boss of the race track.
Don't forget, that until Big Bill finally died, and racing rags in the day made this point, Bill Sr. was still the ONE person truly running NASCAR, no matter who had what title.
NOTHING happened without his OK.

[indycool]

True, but Gazaway lasted into the France Jr. regime. And yes, Chap, we'll probably see more when TG talks.

[Bob Riebe]

True, but Gazaway lasted into the France Jr. regime.
Praise the Lord!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Robin was right on the money. Robin's assessment of Tony in his latest column (basically retelling the story of how CART and Tony danced around each other as he formed the IRL with lots of money and no know how)is also dead on the money. I still feel no pleasure though in the outcome.

The Sisters wanted him not to do this in 95. I wish like hell Mari Hulman listened to the girls.

He is gone however, and that is good in the sense a new direction and face can be put on the series, bad in that the money flow will be stopped or at least slowed at a critical time.

All of this speculation comes back to the Indy 500. Does Mari Hulman want to change the 500 or possibly risk killing it? No one will enter the 500 based on the money and purse for that one race if they have no series to offset costs and provide value for sponsors year round. It is not viable for a Roger Penske to put a team together with the money and infrastructure to win this one race if he cant offset it with a whole series.

So therefore, if the IRL dies, the Indy 500 will die, or have to radically change formula. Does Mari want Silver Crown cars at the speedway? I have no idea what she is thinking, but by being the deciding factor on that board, she allowed Tony to do what she did, and she was the one who finally caved in to the sisters and put a stop to it in the end.

This is interesting times, and Mari Hulman may be the one person who may decide the fate of the IRL in the end. Not much has been said about that, but I suspect it will be. What worries me, is Mari let Tony spend 700 million dollars on a Quixote like pursuit of mediocrity.......THAT sort of judgement is scary.

[indycool]

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

[SarahFan]

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..


robin is famous for 'figures'..

but make no mistake...TG stated flatly.....the IRL has never turned a profit

[Mark in Oshawa]

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

IC...does it make the story any more palatable to you if the Hulmans lost 600 million? REALLY? Splitting hairs wont change the fact that Miller had the meat and potatoes of the story right on and all the Miller haters said he was creating a S*#$Storm where it wasn't warranted. Turns out he had Tony being booted off the leadership position he had at the Speedway and that the family was tired of backing his projects. Whether it was 600 or 700 million dollars is of no interest except to the sisters, who likely were the source of Miller's story.

The fact is, Tony spent a lot of money winning a war for an entity that he devalued greatly winning.....and as it turns out, the sisters are not happy about it.

[methanolHuffer]

When Tony himself admits he made a big mistake, maybe then some his worshipers will find that his motives for starting the series were not what he claimed in the first place.

Why defend that barely educated brat anyway?

[indycool]

As I said, I didn't refer to any part of anyone else's post, I only indicated Robin played fast and loose with numbers.

[IMSA]

Robin and many others go on and on about how much was spent. As many forget, they do have revenue coming in. The Hulman-George family has NOT lost $600-700 million. They have lost $$ (per TG himself), but not the full amount.

Remember the IRL has had TV revenue since day one, along with series sponsors, title sponsors, sanctioning fees, advertising $$ etc etc. This adds up over the years too.

[Bob Riebe]

When Tony himself admits he made a big mistake, maybe then some his worshipers will find that his motives for starting the series were not what he claimed in the first place.

Why defend that barely educated brat anyway?
Some people for what ever reason try to blame T. George for destroying open wheel racing; I do blame him for making himself look like a hypocrite and destroying his own series while crapping on the peopel he SAID he created it for.
For THAT there is NO excuse.

[Chaparral66]

Well, Mark, not that I agree or disagree with what you have to say, but Robin's figure went from $600 million to $700 million in three days, so therefore, I'm not sure I believe his figures, either up OR down..

IC, I'm trying to see what you're referring to but I can't find it. I went back and looked at Robin Miller's articles on SPEEDTV.com, including "IMS CEO Change" and "Tough Week at 16th & Georgetown" and both times he quoted an estimated $600 million figure. Another 100 million bucks is a lot of coin, but in the light of hundreds of millions, that's not a huge gap. Besides, Miller said "estimated", so he wasn't casting the figure in granite. Having said all that, I would still say that saying Miller is playing fast and loose with the numbers is a bit harsh. In light of the fact that he nailed this story of George being shown the door almost a month before IMS finally owned up to it, all the while getting beat up by cynics in and out of the media and here on the forums, as he has nailed other high profile stories in open wheel in recent years, I think Robin Miller is entitled to the benefit of the doubt.

[indycool]

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

[SarahFan]

I knew it was just a matter of time until pheonix attendance got tossed put there ....

So predictable ic

[Blancvino]

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

This is not like you to split hairs. Albeit a 100 million dollar one! Regardless, Robin Miller got it right at the macro level.

The bottom line, as I see it, is this series had a better than 50% chance of folding. This could be the sinking of the unsinkable, the IMS.

I fear F1 is heading for the same fate.

[SarahFan]

I knew it was just a matter of time until pheonix attendance got tossed out there ....

So predictable ic

Fwiw..... I'm hearing the 700mil # is coming from the original 'leaker'....
And is the number that flying around the room in the post 500 board meeting initially referenced in robins original article

[indycool]

Blancvino, Ken , who knows about private company accounting? Sure, Robin is, as you said "macro," correct and was ahead of everybody on the story. I agree.

[the bro]

IC...does it make the story any more palatable to you if the Hulmans lost 600 million? REALLY? Splitting hairs wont change the fact that Miller had the meat and potatoes of the story right on and all the Miller haters said he was creating a S*#$Storm where it wasn't warranted. Turns out he had Tony being booted off the leadership position he had at the Speedway and that the family was tired of backing his projects. Whether it was 600 or 700 million dollars is of no interest except to the sisters, who likely were the source of Miller's story.

The fact is, Tony spent a lot of money winning a war for an entity that he devalued greatly winning.....and as it turns out, the sisters are not happy about it.


I would say he won the battle but never won the war. The war still goes on and he is now out of the picture.

[Chaparral66]

Chap, I'm not referring to the rest of Robin's story, which certainly scooped the world. But he referred to $600m very recently in a piece and it became $700m in the last one. If you put together all the different attendance figures he's used for races at Phoenix, you'd find a wide gap, depending on how badly he wanted to make his point.

IC, I'm not doubting you per se, I'm just trying the article you're referring to. If you could send a link, that would be great. The articles I saw only quoted the $600 million figure, but again, whether 600 or 700, he is saying he is calling them estimates, which he is free to update when he gets new information.

BTW, IC, I'm going to Columbus, Ohio for my cousin's wedding,and I'm trying to fit in a trip to Indy. If I make it, I might meet you at New Castle Motorsports Park for Karting. :D

[indycool]

Chap, will it be new information or Robin just stepping it up?

At least, from this discussion, we know from where it started.

I live on the west side of Indy but can make it to New Castle. PM me and I'll see if I can make it.

[Chaparral66]

Why just step it up just $100 million, why 300 or 400? Like I said, at this point, I think you'd have to give RM the benefit of the doubt that he is trying to be accurate. RM is not afraid to take on the most controversial stories, so it's important to be accurate, since the story, if true, will have to stand the test of time; and his reputation, which he guards jealously like all reporters with any integrity, would take a huge hit if is inaccurate. Notice that IMS is only not responding to those fugures, but I haven't seen where they have denied them. Again, if you have a link to the SPEEDTV.com article that I may have missed, please send link. The most recents he wrote that I saw only him quote the $600 million figure.

If I'm able to make to Indy, I'll let you know.

[Chaparral66]

And remember, RM said estimates. That means he's trying to be accurate based on the info he was able to confirm.

[indycool]

Second page of July 2 column:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-end-of-the-tony-george-era//P2/

[Chaparral66]

Second page of July 2 column:

http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-end-of-the-tony-george-era//P2/

OK, thanks for sending that, IC, I don't know why I couldn't find it. Like I said, I didn't doubt he wrote that, but this still doesn't strike me as playing fast and loose with numbers. He's still in the ballpark of his original figure, he may have updated info, hell, it could have been a typo on the SPEEDTV.com end. I have noticed that sometimes the site mashes words together along with other small mistakes. I still maintain that RM retains his integrity and deserves the benefit of the doubt, this isn't that big a deal. Tune in to Wind Tunnel on Sunday (where he is almost certain to be a guest) and see what he says, and if he says $700 million, see how he explains it. Not to be repetitive, but as long as he says "estimated", he's not obligated to cast the figure in granite, it's based on the latest information he was getting from his inside sources.

[indycool]

Ken instantly mentioned that I brought up the Phoenix attendance figures Robin used in various stories and it was something like 8-10 different ones. He worked for CART at the time. He's back to being a journalist now. But the very point Ken made about me jumping on RM's attendance figures at Phoenix indicates others have memories of before, too. And again, I give him credit for the "scoop" and I trust what I presume to be his sources, although at least some could be second hand.

[Chaparral66]

Ken instantly mentioned that I brought up the Phoenix attendance figures Robin used in various stories and it was something like 8-10 different ones. He worked for CART at the time. He's back to being a journalist now. But the very point Ken made about me jumping on RM's attendance figures at Phoenix indicates others have memories of before, too. And again, I give him credit for the "scoop" and I trust what I presume to be his sources, although at least some could be second hand.

On the articles he wrote for CART, he was basically a promotional writer and had to uphold a much different set of guidlines in holding to the series' objectives. But even while at CART, he always remained with the Indy Star and later SPEEDTV.com, and his articles there were very different from what he did for CART. At the Indy Star and SPEED, he had to maintain his traditional journalistic ethical guidelines in his reporting. Miller has always been able to maintain that distinction his CART writing and his general reporting, and sometimes to his detriment, as was the case when he talked at length about Champ Car's unorganized mess of a couple of seasons ago at Spring Training at Laguna Seca on the SPEED site. This blunt article pissed off The Three Amigos, especially Kevin Kalkhoven reportedly, and Miller was booted from Champ Car. The article raised the back hair of the series and some fans.

But he wasn't wrong.

[indycool]

Chap, you just presented his conflicts of interest as a journalist at that time.

[Blancvino]

Chap, you just presented his conflicts of interest as a journalist at that time.

That's not hard to do. But the big picture in this is the series is in DEEP trouble. Pointing out Robin Miller's flaws and or conflicts of interest does not change a thing.

[indycool]

Blancvino, all I'm saying is let's not escalate facts based on supposition, emotion, agenda or excitement. On a business basis, we're talking a difference of one hundred million dollars and that, to ANYONE, is a LOT of money.

[Chaparral66]

Blancvino, all I'm saying is let's not escalate facts based on supposition, emotion, agenda or excitement. On a business basis, we're talking a difference of one hundred million dollars and that, to ANYONE, is a LOT of money.

I don't think Robin Miller is doing that, IC. Yes, as I said, $100 million is a ton of money, but it's all relative. In the larger context of 600 or 700 million, not as much. Did RM have a conflict of interest when he was at CCWS? That's certainly one way of looking at it. But looking at many of his articles for CCWS, they were mostly articles about certain drivers or on occasion, various technical matters within the series. When he reported on a breaking story or contribute independent commentary, he would do so through the Indy Star or SPEEDTV.com. He seemed to do a pretty good job maintaining a different writing style for both. But I wouldn't reccommend that he repeat that.

[Skater36]

Chap, you just presented his conflicts of interest as a journalist at that time.


Conflict of interest. Lot of that going around on both sides since this whole mess began.

[Mark in Oshawa]

IC...you know I like you even when we agree to disagree, but this 100 million dollar difference is really burying the lead here. You admitted Robin got the nuts of the story right, leave it be. Robin got the story from his sources, and any numbers he may have gotten had to come from those sources. He wasn't making the number or guesstimating when he had the rest of the story.

The whole argument is moot. Lets just say Tony blew a lot more money than he took in, and that is why he is gone.

The fact that he didn't know what he was doing in marketing and running a race series wouldn't have met diddly if somehow there was black ink on the Hulman family's books. There wasn't and THAT is the reason he is walking. Mari couldn't take losing any more money apparently.

The sad reality is that as nice a man as Tony George can seem to be, and as nice a job he has done at renovating and innovating new events for the IMS, the sad part is he still spent a lot of money to win a war that didn't need to be fought.

[Mark in Oshawa]

AS for Robin's conflicts of interest, the fact is he dumped all over the Amigo's when they deserved it, regardless of the work he was doing on the PR side of things. Robin never let his desire to bust a good story get in the way of his pay check. THAT says to me more about the man's credibility than the fact he was doing PR work for CCWS in the first place.

[indycool]

While Robin was being paid by CART, he was trashing the IRL, Mark. Go back and look at some of his stuff. I am NOT trashing over this. As ypu and I have both said, Robin scooped the world and had the gist of the story right. What I AM saying is that $600 million from an unidentified source becoming $700 million for an unidentified source in two days doesn't count as an absolute for me.

[Chaparral66]

While Robin was being paid by CART, he was trashing the IRL, Mark. Go back and look at some of his stuff. I am NOT trashing over this. As ypu and I have both said, Robin scooped the world and had the gist of the story right. What I AM saying is that $600 million from an unidentified source becoming $700 million for an unidentified source in two days doesn't count as an absolute for me.

It's not supposed to be an absolute. Remember what I told you above? Each time Robin Miller gave a figure, he gives the disclaimer "estimated". That is journalistic lingo for saying he admits to not having a precise numeric figure. This is as close as he can determine from his undisclosed sources. C'mon, IC, you're kind of picking nits here, looking at the broad picture.

[indycool]

Okay......it'll be interesting how this number progresses.

[Chaparral66]

Fair enough. Keep an eye on it as I will, I'm sure we'll speak again if it changes...

[grungex]

Okay......it'll be interesting how this number progresses.

Nothing changes, I see. Spin, spin, spin.

[the bro]

Okay......it'll be interesting how this number progresses.

I don't see how the number can ever be confirmed, as a private company they are under no obligation to release such information. Estimate is the best you can get. How about if we put the figure at 600 million plus or minus 100 million.

[Chaparral66]

Sounds fair to me.

[SarahFan]

IC... do you have any other examples besides pheonix?


...and....Robin has used more than a couple #'s regarding pheonix attendance , specifically the 1995 race..... but i dont remember him fudgeing them after being employed by CC....seems to me it was all prior (late 90's and early 2000's)....I think you, IC, are in fat the one playing a bit lose here IC....

[indycool]

That went back and forth long. long ago, Ken.

[SarahFan]

That went back and forth long. long ago, Ken.


OK...

but do you have any other examples of robin useing creative #'s

[methanolHuffer]

You see, on May 27 TG denied, denied, denied there was anything happening to his positions that he was currently occupying.

Robin Miller took some guff from Tony's loyal followers.

30 days later RM was right on all accounts.

Except that he can't confirm if IMS burned $500, 600, 700 million or more.

Tony George plays dumb and lies to everyone a month prior to the inevitable - and Robin Miller is still the villain of Indianapolis media.

[indycool]

All done way back when they were relevant, Ken.

[SarahFan]

All done way back when they were relevant, Ken.


for example

[Skater36]

You see, on May 27 TG denied, denied, denied there was anything happening to his positions that he was currently occupying.

Robin Miller took some guff from Tony's loyal followers.

30 days later RM was right on all accounts.

Except that he can't confirm if IMS burned $500, 600, 700 million or more.

Tony George plays dumb and lies to everyone a month prior to the inevitable - and Robin Miller is still the villain of Indianapolis media.


I get a big kick out of the righteous indignation from some of the media hacks accusing Miller of things they themselves have been doing for years.