View Full Version : Title Race is closer than it looks
woody2goody
25th May 2009, 14:24
The reason for Brawn GP's big lead in the championship isn't due to a big car advantage - sure, it is the most reliable, and it is very well balanced and kind to it's tyres.
The real reason in my opinion is the failure of the other teams to mount a consistent challenge.
Red Bull have had arguably the best car, but a lot of bad luck has prevented them from running Brawn closer. Vettel getting taken out of 2nd place in Oz, Webber getting blocked in Bahrain and starting at the back, Vettel spinning out in Malaysia and Monaco.
Williams have what is possibly the third best package, but have a measly 7.5 points. Nakajima isn't the strongest qualifier despite his good race performances. However he is often too far back on the grid to mount a challenge for the podium. The car has struggled with a change of tyres in a couple of races also.
Toyota are inconsistent with their pace. They have two excellent drivers and have had good reliability, but they too have squandered good points finishes. Both drivers battled away in Monaco but their poor qualifying meant that points were never a possibility.
We all know about Ferrari's troubles, but they claimed their first podium in Monaco. Poor strategies, decisions and a seemingly demotivated Raikkonen (at least until this weekend) have hindered their team. Massa seems to be overdriving a bit to compensate. I doubt they will be as strong in Turkey, although Massa's a genius round that place.
Brawn, in contrast have had nothing go wrong, even a couple of bad strategy calls haven't hindered their progress. Even in Bahrain when their car wasn't the fastest, possibly behind RBR and Toyota, they managed to pull out a fantastic finish.
555-04Q2
25th May 2009, 15:55
I agree and disagree with your post. I think we havent seen the real pace of the Brawn GP cars yet. I think Button can go another +/- 5% faster. So far he hasnt needed to as no one has been close enough, not even Rubens.
Notice how Button suddenly pops in a great time to take pole position lately? I think he is/Brawn GP are sand bagging. The other teams are going to find it difficult to beat them to the WCC and WDC. I think the gap is wider than we all think.
drewdawg727
25th May 2009, 16:19
I have to disagree with your claim about Williams. I think Nakajima has a LOT to prove...because he is one to make several mistakes come race day. He is pretty good compared to last year, but he has still found the wall/runoff area or the gearbox of other drivers this year. And as for Nico, he qualifies well, but doesn't seem to be able to race up against anyone too well. The move he made on Massa during the race to get up behind Vettel would probably not have happened if Massa didn't have to let up over the chicane. I think that Williams and Ferrari are at the same level of ability right now.
It was also great to see Force India qualify and race well, well done to Sutil and Fisi. I think the driver at this point who needs a LOT of motivation is Sebastien Bourdais.
wedge
25th May 2009, 16:28
Williams are up and down like a yo yo
Toyota are on downward slope but I think its more to do with the car which doesn't have great mechanical grip compared to others.
Ferrari started poorly but are in the same position as BMW last year, there or thereabouts so long may it continue.
RBR/Vettel - just don't know what to make of the kid. Amazes me one minute and leaves me dumbfounded the next. Really needs to pull his fingers out because at times he's stuck on first base and appears clueless.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 18:10
Red Bull have had arguably the best car, but a lot of bad luck has prevented them from running Brawn closer. Vettel getting taken out of 2nd place in Oz, Webber getting blocked in Bahrain and starting at the back, Vettel spinning out in Malaysia and Monaco.
Vettel was not taken out of 2nd place at oz, he simply drove stupidly and crashed into a faster driver. But I agree, RB has been the fastest car in at least 3 races, but Vettel has not taken advantage of it.
We all know about Ferrari's troubles, but they claimed their first podium in Monaco. Poor strategies, decisions and a seemingly demotivated Raikkonen (at least until this weekend) have hindered their team.
I am still not sure why people insist on posting that BS about Kimi not being motivated.
Brawn, in contrast have had nothing go wrong, even a couple of bad strategy calls haven't hindered their progress. Even in Bahrain when their car wasn't the fastest, possibly behind RBR and Toyota, they managed to pull out a fantastic finish.
Brawn GP have been fantastic all the year long, no strategic mistakes or errors, they deserve kudos.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 18:11
I agree and disagree with your post. I think we havent seen the real pace of the Brawn GP cars yet. I think Button can go another +/- 5% faster. So far he hasnt needed to as no one has been close enough, not even Rubens.
Notice how Button suddenly pops in a great time to take pole position lately? I think he is/Brawn GP are sand bagging. The other teams are going to find it difficult to beat them to the WCC and WDC. I think the gap is wider than we all think.
No, Brawn has really struggled at times to match the pace of RB in qualifying, they are not holding much back.
F1boat
25th May 2009, 18:15
To me it seems that Brawn have the fastest car on race day, but are not as strong in qualifying... while Red Bull has great car, but poor strategy.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 18:18
To me it seems that Brawn have the fastest car on race day, but are not as strong in qualifying... while Red Bull has great car, but poor strategy.
And Red Bull also lacks in driver department compared to Brawn (Button is clearly better than vettel)
Nikki Katz
25th May 2009, 18:32
I don't think that this season will go all Brawn's way, especially towards the end of the year, when I expect that Ferrari and possibly McLaren will have caught up; there will probably be the odd Red Bull victory before that. But Button's almost certain for the title now, and his nearest rival is his teammate anyway.
I am pleased that there's not currently the medals system though, as while I very much doubt that the eventual winner of the championship will be any different, under the medals system Button would stand a reasonable chance on recent form of wrapping up the title by Hungary in 4 rounds. I'd like to think that this is one of the things that FOTA would demand that the FIA drop, but I think it's more likely to be one of the things that FOTA concede for next year.
But I agree, RB has been the fastest car in at least 3 races, but Vettel has not taken advantage of it.
And Red Bull also lacks in driver department compared to Brawn (Button is clearly better than vettel)
:rotflmao:
Big Ben
25th May 2009, 18:34
Without analyzing to much practice times, qualifying or race pace I think the title race is not closer but rather closed if you catch my drift :p :.
I´m under the impression that it´s not that obvious because BGP just don´t have to force themselves to win a race. I didn´t really see anyone actually challenging them except one race. And I don´t think either of their drivers is that great to be honest...
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 18:38
:rotflmao:
Red bull was better than Brawn at China, Bahrain and Spain. The problem was that Vettel did not do a good job with starts in 2 of them, messed up bigtime at Malaysia, Australia and at Monaco.
Keep laughing, I am sure you cant be laughing harder than I was yesterday when Vettel crashed out.
Red bull was better than Brawn at China, Bahrain and Spain. The problem was that Vettel did not do a good job with starts in 2 of them, messed up bigtime at Malaysia, Australia and at Monaco.
Maybe better than Rubens' with his half arsed strategies.
Keep laughing, I am sure you cant be laughing harder than I was yesterday when Vettel crashed out.
Button, who took 6 seasons for his first F1 win?! You compare him a guy who took his 1 st win in his first full F1 season, the first ever for STR, former Minardi? And than went on to take another win the next season, also the first for RBR?!
Honestly I'm looking forward to see what you do when Vettel will be driving for one of the great teams, possibly Ferrari. :p :
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 18:57
Maybe better than Rubens' with his half arsed strategies.
Button, who took 6 seasons for his first F1 win?! You compare him a guy who took his 1 st win in his first full F1 season, the first ever for STR, former Minardi? And than went on to take another win the next season, also the first for RBR?!
Honestly I'm looking forward to see what you do when Vettel will be driving for one of the great teams, possibly Ferrari. :p :
When it is wet, Vettel is great, I have always said that. But he has not impressed me in dry.
Also, last year the STR was very impressive in wet, remember Bourdais being very good at Monza also. The same SB who is getting beaten by Buemi.
STR has nothing to do with Minardi, its the same as saying Alonso won with Toleman.
Vettel already is in a really good team, Red Bull has been better than any other team so far this year and equal to Brawn GP. He simply has fcuked up 3 races and dissapointed in 2 others.
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 19:01
^Come on Ioan, you cant really compare most the cars Button's had to drive against the late season form of STR last year and the current RB5?
And RBR were definitely faster than Brawn in Bahrain (as were Toyota) and a mtach for them in Spain. Hard to tell in China with the heavy rain but probably about equal as well.
Also, last year the STR was very impressive in wet, remember Bourdais being very good at Monza also.
Like he came 2nd or 3rd?! No??? That says a lot.
STR has nothing to do with Minardi, its the same as saying Alonso won with Toleman.
Not really it's more like saying that Alonso won with a Benetton, oh wait they were Champions in the '90s too! :rolleyes:
Vettel already is in a really good team, Red Bull has been better than any other team so far this year and equal to Brawn GP. He simply has fcuked up 3 races and dissapointed in 2 others.
Stop talking BS, RBR isn't the best team this season. They had some good races but their drivers are clearly better in qualifying when pushing the limits is not penalizing like in the race. Come race day Brawn has blown away everyone in 5 races out of 6.
^Come on Ioan, you cant really compare most the cars Button's had to drive against the late season form of STR last year and the current RB5?
And RBR were definitely faster than Brawn in Bahrain (as were Toyota) and a mtach for them in Spain. Hard to tell in China with the heavy rain but probably about equal as well.
Well the 2004 BAR was for sure better (compared to the opposition) than last seasons STR, no question about that, still Jenson never won that year.
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 19:14
Well the 2004 BAR was for sure better (compared to the opposition) than last seasons STR, no question about that, still Jenson never won that year.
As I remember the car started out 3rd best, had a mid season slump in performance for a couple races then ended the year clear second best, but Ferrari were miles ahead of everyone that year. Before this year I only know of one race that Jenson has a had realistic chance of victory and that was Hungary 06. Remind me, what was the result? ;) Everything else he's driven has been a lucky podium contender at best.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 19:14
Like he came 2nd or 3rd?! No??? That says a lot.
You are probably forgetting his car failed at the start and he was a lap behind after the start already.
Not really it's more like saying that Alonso won with a Benetton, oh wait they were Champions in the '90s too! :rolleyes: Whatever, Minardi and STR have nothing in common, you must be desperate for arguments.
Stop talking BS, RBR isn't the best team this season. They had some good races but their drivers are clearly better in qualifying when pushing the limits is not penalizing like in the race. Come race day Brawn has blown away everyone in 5 races out of 6.
RB pace was hidden at Bahrain and Spain, because they were behind slower cars all the time, but in qualy, fuel adjusted, they were the fastest. I reckon they were easily as fast as Brawn in those GPs. But Vettel fcuked up the starts.
At oz, Vettel had no trouble keeping pace with Button, till the moment he decided to go crazy and crashed into Kubica (to the immense amusement of me).
I know you are in love with Vettel, but he has been very dissapointing in races this year in 5 out of 6 races.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 19:16
Well the 2004 BAR was for sure better (compared to the opposition) than last seasons STR, no question about that, still Jenson never won that year.
There were no exceptional circumances to help Button like Vettel had last year.
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 19:17
^ I think your being a bit harsh on Vettel, the RB5 just doesnt seem like a quick car off the line in his or Webbers hands, plus stoping a KERS car getting past on the run to turn 1 (when there's a decent run anyway, unlike Monaco) is a hidding to nothing.
At oz, Vettel had no trouble keeping pace with Button, till the moment he decided to go crazy and crashed into Kubica (to the immense amusement of me).
BS, he never got closer than 5 seconds even with the 2 SC periods.
I know you are in love with Vettel, but he has been very dissapointing in races this year in 5 out of 6 races.
Stop talking BS, he's only one of my favorites behind the 2 Ferrari drivers.
How about you hating him?! :p :
^ I think your being a bit harsh on Vettel, the RB5 just doesnt seem like a quick car off the line in his or Webbers hands, plus stoping a KERS car getting past on the run to turn 1 (when there's a decent run anyway, unlike Monaco) is a hidding to nothing.
He hates Vettel, for whatever reason.
As I remember the car started out 3rd best, had a mid season slump in performance for a couple races then ended the year clear second best, but Ferrari were miles ahead of everyone that year. Before this year I only know of one race that Jenson has a had realistic chance of victory and that was Hungary 06. Remind me, what was the result? ;) Everything else he's driven has been a lucky podium contender at best.
As far as I remember Button was on pole and finished 2nd in Imola which back than was the 4th race of the season.
Anyway STR last season wasn't 2nd best, heck it wasn't even 3rd best car (1st/2nd Ferrari/McLaren 3rd BMW).
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 19:23
BS, he never got closer than 5 seconds even with the 2 SC periods. The gap was at times below 5 seconds, but one just has to admit Button drove better.
Stop talking BS, he's only one of my favorites behind the 2 Ferrari drivers.
How about you hating him?! :p : No BS, he has had equal best or best car in 4 races and only won 1 race. 25% success rate. Very dissapointing performances. Not to mention he has a crash rate of 50%.
Jag_Warrior
25th May 2009, 19:24
I have to disagree with your claim about Williams. I think Nakajima has a LOT to prove...because he is one to make several mistakes come race day. He is pretty good compared to last year, but he has still found the wall/runoff area or the gearbox of other drivers this year. And as for Nico, he qualifies well, but doesn't seem to be able to race up against anyone too well. The move he made on Massa during the race to get up behind Vettel would probably not have happened if Massa didn't have to let up over the chicane. I think that Williams and Ferrari are at the same level of ability right now.
It was also great to see Force India qualify and race well, well done to Sutil and Fisi. I think the driver at this point who needs a LOT of motivation is Sebastien Bourdais.
How do people feel about future IRL driver/fast food worker, Nelson Piquet, Jr. at this stage of the season? Does anyone believe he'll occupy that seat all the way through the season?
The gap was at times below 5 seconds, but one just has to admit Button drove better.
LOL!
Any chance that one admits that the Brawn was best by far?! :D
BDunnell
25th May 2009, 19:28
The old adage still applies: to finish first, first you have to finish.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 19:28
LOL!
Any chance that one admits that the Brawn was best by far?! :D
The only time this season when Brawn has been the best car by a clear margin, was Malaysian GP.
At other times Red Bull has been quite close or faster and at Monaco, Ferrari was quite close.
and at Monaco, Ferrari was quite close.
That we can agree on.
Garry Walker
25th May 2009, 19:42
That we can agree on.
Which makes the first few races all the more dissapointing.
If the season had started from Barcelona, we would be challenging for the title :(
Which makes the first few races all the more dissapointing.
If the season had started from Barcelona, we would be challenging for the title :(
If they wouldn't have messed up the strategy and the reliability at least once every race including Barcelona we would be 2nd in the WCC, the car wasn't as bad as the stupid mistakes made it look. Heck 2nd was possible in Barcelona if they wouldn't be so stupid not to realize that the refueling rigs were both OK but the fuel sensor on the car was broken.
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 21:23
The only time this season when Brawn has been the best car by a clear margin, was Malaysian GP.
At other times Red Bull has been quite close or faster and at Monaco, Ferrari was quite close.
The Brawn had a clear advantage in Oz as well, Button held the gap at around 2-5 seconds for much of the race, but if he wanted to he could have pushed the best part of a second per lap faster. The reason he didnt was because of gearbox reliability worries, he had one fail in testing and Rubens had one go in Malaysia practice.
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 21:26
As far as I remember Button was on pole and finished 2nd in Imola which back than was the 4th race of the season.
Anyway STR last season wasn't 2nd best, heck it wasn't even 3rd best car (1st/2nd Ferrari/McLaren 3rd BMW).
I remember that race, he ran a 3 stop strategy so he could gain track position over Alonso and Barrichello did particularly crap that weekend, his pace was never close to the Ferrari of Schumacher during the race.
No, the STR ended last year as 4th best (BMW had definitely droped to 5th buy then with zero development and a number of mistakes with tyres), but Vettel made the most of extreme circumstances in a race where most of the favoured runners did particularly badly. I think the last time so many front runners underperformed by so much was probably France 99!
Sleeper
25th May 2009, 21:34
If they wouldn't have messed up the strategy and the reliability at least once every race including Barcelona we would be 2nd in the WCC, the car wasn't as bad as the stupid mistakes made it look. Heck 2nd was possible in Barcelona if they wouldn't be so stupid not to realize that the refueling rigs were both OK but the fuel sensor on the car was broken.
Not on pure pace they wouldnt. Raikkonens 6th place in Bahrain was about were the cars would have finished in all the fly aways.
Second was never on in Barcelona, he'd lost 3rd to Webber before fuel became a problem. And for what its worth, I think Massa drove the best race of anyone that day.
Second was never on in Barcelona, he'd lost 3rd to Webber before fuel became a problem. And for what its worth, I think Massa drove the best race of anyone that day.
Fuel was always a problem in that race, they have stopped 2 laps earlier at the first pit stop because the believed they were running out of fuel, fueled a bit more than initially calculated and yet they again stopped earlier the 2nd time around, used the other refueling rig, and this time thought that they will be again run out of fuel before the end of the race.
Turned out that Massa lost around 6 laps of running with a light car and carried some 10-12 kgs more of fuel than needed during 2/3rds of the race.
Those 6 lost laps of running with a light car would easily amount to at least 6 seconds compared to running with a refueled car, and running 40 laps with 10 more kgs of fuel than needed would also mean around 10 seconds at least.
They had the car and the driver to get 2nd but they panicked and didn't realize where the fault was.
Anyway is too late to cry over what was 2 weeks ago, let's rather look forward to the possibility of getting the Constructors title, however they will need an error free run from now on.
race_director
25th May 2009, 22:20
. I think that Williams and Ferrari are at the same level of ability right now.
have you been listening to steve slater or alex young on the starsports network lately ???
race_director
25th May 2009, 22:43
Well No dis-respect to jenson. He has done a fantastic job this year
Well i do not really consider jenson or vettel to be class drivers. Jenson has being setting on his arse for more than 6 yrs? in F1. till last year he was a complete junk, who even the UK media did not care about. Today i agree he has won 5 races , but the feeling i get is that Ross has done a such a fantastic job, all credit goes to him. Jenson to me is just a delivery boy, he does not have class, i do not see the spectacular thing in him. I guess even piquet would have showed the same result in brawn cars this year. I agree that he would have won 3 races instead of 5.
well coming to Vettel , he is good, but not that good. he shines when conditions are perfect for him, otherwise he is normal. But i give the credit of being in front of webber most of the time.
The way i see. Todays driver's are more dependent on the machine than there skill's. Gone are the days when we use to see driver's giving there showing there real talent . I am sure that if we had driver's like SENNA, MIKA, JV, SCHUMI, ALONSO, KIMI ( I know only this driver's. i have been watching f1 for last 16-17 years only) today in a brawn car which jenson is driving, they would have packed up the races well before the rest of the field getting the half race distance.
with MAD MAX planing to kill f1 by imposing his budget on F1, i feel we will see machine taking over drivers and a day might come when MAX will bring in a rule in which F1 will just be a remote controlled car race.
I am a bit harsh here. but this the truth we have to live with
There were no exceptional circumances to help Button like Vettel had last year.
and your point IS
how maney hundred driver would be better then button in this years brawn
A GOOD DRIVER SHOULD BE ABLE TO GET THE BEST OUT OF ANY CAR
and button has been in f1 2000,2001,2002,2003,2004,2005,2006,2007,2008,2009
truefan72
26th May 2009, 00:23
to me BGP are miles ahead of everyone else and are probably sandbagging their performances a bit to mask their true prowess./
this talk of RBR being the fastest car is just nonsense. They do have 2 drivers that would be extremely fast driving any car they are given. and while they were a toss up with Toyota for 2nd best at the start of the year, I'd say that they are now 3rd best behind BGP and Ferrari, with Willimas and Toyota and Mclaren nipping at their heels.
To me talking about them being the fastest car is as nonsensical as claiming Force India is the fastest because they are consistently tops on the speed traps.
Both the WCC and WDC are done and all that's left for F1 this year is too see how much other teams can improve and then the circus revolving around 2010
555-04Q2
26th May 2009, 06:33
No, Brawn has really struggled at times to match the pace of RB in qualifying, they are not holding much back.
I disagree with your quali pace claim of Brawn GP. They have by far the highest aggregate quali record.
Besides, even if it were so, what would you rather have, a fast race car or a fast quali car :?: I know which one I would take.
Lets be honest here, besides one race, Button hasnt broken a sweat yet. If RB has the fastest car, then how the hell has a driver like Button managed to with 83.33% of the races so far :?:
DexDexter
26th May 2009, 08:18
I disagree with your quali pace claim of Brawn GP. They have by far the highest aggregate quali record.
Besides, even if it were so, what would you rather have, a fast race car or a fast quali car :?: I know which one I would take.
Lets be honest here, besides one race, Button hasnt broken a sweat yet. If RB has the fastest car, then how the hell has a driver like Button managed to with 83.33% of the races so far :?:
I agree that the Brawn's are the fastest car at the moment but I think everybody can agree that their advantage is shrinking. In the next few races the Ferraris are going to beat Rubens, in Monaco that was already a possibility. The problem is Rubens is going to act as a buffer to Jenson, just like in Monaco.
555-04Q2
26th May 2009, 08:23
I agree that the Brawn's are the fastest car at the moment but I think everybody can agree that their advantage is shrinking. In the next few races the Ferraris are going to beat Rubens, in Monaco that was already a possibility. The problem is Rubens is going to act as a buffer to Jenson, just like in Monaco.
I agree that the gap has closed, but they are still comfortably the class act of the field. Their reliability is also really impressive so far.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 08:38
This is a very interesting discussion. Honestly, I think that Brawn GP and Red Bull, as cars, are pretty evenly matched. If you read the analyzes of experts like James Allen or if you watch the races carefully, you will notice that Brawn enjoys an advantage in tracks, dominated by slow corners, like Monaco, while Red Bull loves fast corners, like Barcelona and is expected to dominate Turkey and Great Britain. Ferrari - we have to wait and see. For sure they are improving, they were behind Toyota, Williams and maybe Renault, but now they are better and are closing on Red Bull and Brawn.
However, Ross is clearly better than either Horner and Domenicalli. In fact, I think that thanks to Ferrari's mistakes, we have not made comments how dreadful the RBR strategy was. In Bahrein and Barcelona they needed Pole, but they fueled Vettel heavy, he was slow at the starts and lost easily. In Monte, where they weren't able to fight for Pole, they fueled him light and even without the tyre issues, he would have been fighting with Rosberg and Alonso at best.
About the drivers, I have to say that after 2006 I was very impressed by Jenson Button and wished him to be a contender. However, Honda sucked badly in the next two years and I think that like many other fans I started to forget him, although I ever regarded him as a very solid driver, on par with Massa for example. This year he proved that with a good car he is very, very good. I am very impress with the way he won the Poles at Spain or Monte Carlo, or the way he overtook Alonso in Malaysia or Hamilton in Bahrain. Speak what you want, but Alonso held Kimi for ages in Sepang and Hamilton proved to be an unmovable obstacle for Vettel in Bahrain. So I think that Jenson proved this season that he is among the best in this sport. I wish him the WDC this season and I hope that he wins it convincingly.
About Seb Vettel, he is very good and fast driver, but he is a bit overrated IMO. Baby Shu, the boy wonder etc. The truth is that he was brilliant in China, average in Bahrain and Spain, foolish in Oz and pathetic in Monte. He also talks too much. He is always held by other drivers and they always cost him the win or the pole. He wanted rain in Malaysia and was the first guy to spin... He is a good driver, but IMO, much like Lewis, is developing a belief that he is "the new star, destined to win", which to me is always unpleasant.
Also, Garry is right, he is exceptional in the wet, but in the dry is just solid.
His results I think must be credited to Newey in the same way we credit Ross Brawn for the success of Jenson.
Now for the championship I think that it is not over. Red Bull for sure is going to be the team to beat in Turkey and GB and maybe Ferrari might trouble Brawn GP as well. So the situation might become very interesting. I personally think that this season might become like 2005 - when Alonso cruised the second part of the season, collecting points, or like 2001, when MS won early because on different tracks he had different rivals, Williams or McLaren.
However, if Brawn and Jenson manage to win the next two races, it might become a massacre, like 2002 or 2004. We have to wait and see, I guess. For now I keep my fingers crossed for Jenson and I hope that Ferrari will manage to overtake RBR!
Wasted Talent
26th May 2009, 09:23
Well No dis-respect to jenson. He has done a fantastic job this year
I am sure that if we had driver's like SENNA, MIKA, JV, SCHUMI, ALONSO, KIMI ( I know only this driver's. i have been watching f1 for last 16-17 years only) today in a brawn car which jenson is driving, they would have packed up the races well before the rest of the field getting the half race distance.
I am a bit harsh here. but this the truth we have to live with
JV??? Is that Jacques Villeneuve who was embarassed by a rookie team-mate at BAR .........Jenson Button??
WT
Wasted Talent
26th May 2009, 09:28
This is a very interesting discussion. Honestly, I think that Brawn GP and Red Bull, as cars, are pretty evenly matched. If you read the analyzes of experts like James Allen or if you watch the races carefully, you will notice that Brawn enjoys an advantage in tracks, dominated by slow corners, like Monaco, while Red Bull loves fast corners, like Barcelona and is expected to dominate Turkey and Great Britain. Ferrari - we have to wait and see. For sure they are improving, they were behind Toyota, Williams and maybe Renault, but now they are better and are closing on Red Bull and Brawn.
However, Ross is clearly better than either Horner and Domenicalli. In fact, I think that thanks to Ferrari's mistakes, we have not made comments how dreadful the RBR strategy was. In Bahrein and Barcelona they needed Pole, but they fueled Vettel heavy, he was slow at the starts and lost easily. In Monte, where they weren't able to fight for Pole, they fueled him light and even without the tyre issues, he would have been fighting with Rosberg and Alonso at best.
About the drivers, I have to say that after 2006 I was very impressed by Jenson Button and wished him to be a contender. However, Honda sucked badly in the next two years and I think that like many other fans I started to forget him, although I ever regarded him as a very solid driver, on par with Massa for example. This year he proved that with a good car he is very, very good. I am very impress with the way he won the Poles at Spain or Monte Carlo, or the way he overtook Alonso in Malaysia or Hamilton in Bahrain. Speak what you want, but Alonso held Kimi for ages in Sepang and Hamilton proved to be an unmovable obstacle for Vettel in Bahrain. So I think that Jenson proved this season that he is among the best in this sport. I wish him the WDC this season and I hope that he wins it convincingly.
About Seb Vettel, he is very good and fast driver, but he is a bit overrated IMO. Baby Shu, the boy wonder etc. The truth is that he was brilliant in China, average in Bahrain and Spain, foolish in Oz and pathetic in Monte. He also talks too much. He is always held by other drivers and they always cost him the win or the pole. He wanted rain in Malaysia and was the first guy to spin... He is a good driver, but IMO, much like Lewis, is developing a belief that he is "the new star, destined to win", which to me is always unpleasant.
Also, Garry is right, he is exceptional in the wet, but in the dry is just solid.
His results I think must be credited to Newey in the same way we credit Ross Brawn for the success of Jenson.
Now for the championship I think that it is not over. Red Bull for sure is going to be the team to beat in Turkey and GB and maybe Ferrari might trouble Brawn GP as well. So the situation might become very interesting. I personally think that this season might become like 2005 - when Alonso cruised the second part of the season, collecting points, or like 2001, when MS won early because on different tracks he had different rivals, Williams or McLaren.
However, if Brawn and Jenson manage to win the next two races, it might become a massacre, like 2002 or 2004. We have to wait and see, I guess. For now I keep my fingers crossed for Jenson and I hope that Ferrari will manage to overtake RBR!
Good post F1b, I agree with nearly all that, but I'm not as bothered about Ferrari doing well.
For a team with the biggest budget and special rights it is funny how Ferrari keep shooting themselves in the foot.....please let the comedy continue
WT
This is a very interesting discussion. Honestly, I think that Brawn GP and Red Bull, as cars, are pretty evenly matched. If you read the analyzes of experts like James Allen ...
I had to stop reading at this point.
I read James Allen's blog because he has first hand contact with drivers, however no offense but he is no way an expert who can analyze the competitive level of F1 cars.
JV??? Is that Jacques Villeneuve who was embarassed by a rookie team-mate at BAR .........Jenson Button??
WT
Jenson was not a rookie at BAR. Or maybe he was still a rookie last season too?
F1boat
26th May 2009, 11:00
I had to stop reading at this point.
I read James Allen's blog because he has first hand contact with drivers, however no offense but he is no way an expert who can analyze the competitive level of F1 cars.
That's very harsh, ioan. So far Allen had very accurate predictions. He said that Brawn will dominate Oz. After Chind he predicted that Brawn will still be very quick in Bahrain. He made a mistake about McLaren-Mercedes, but apart from this, his predictions were and still are very accurate.
That's very harsh, ioan. So far Allen had very accurate predictions. He said that Brawn will dominate Oz. After Chind he predicted that Brawn will still be very quick in Bahrain. He made a mistake about McLaren-Mercedes, but apart from this, his predictions were and still are very accurate.
Given the pace Brawn had in testing and in Oz FP, it was obvious that there was a chance of more than 50% for him to be right.
The fact that he was wrong about McLaren shows that he simply hyped the British teams and while BrawnGP did well, Williams are OK and McLaren are a flop, he had 50/50 chances to get it right and that's exactly what happened.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 11:12
To me it is very immature to deny credit when the guy is right. Usually he is right after his Friday predictions and about hyping British teams, you are simply wrong as James is complimentary for Ferrari and RBR as well.
555-04Q2
26th May 2009, 11:13
I had to stop reading at this point.
I read James Allen's blog because he has first hand contact with drivers, however no offense but he is no way an expert who can analyze the competitive level of F1 cars.
I agree. James Allen is an idiot. Full stop.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 11:17
Your opinion. To me he is one of the best in what he does.
555-04Q2
26th May 2009, 11:21
Eveyone is entitled to their opinion, thats what makes us individuals and makes life so colourful :)
But I know for a fact that the man is an idiot everytime he opens his mouth or remembers how his pen/keyboard works.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 11:29
I like his articles. His comments, not so much.
DexDexter
26th May 2009, 11:30
I had to stop reading at this point.
I read James Allen's blog because he has first hand contact with drivers, however no offense but he is no way an expert who can analyze the competitive level of F1 cars.
You should listen to Niki Lauda's comments then, I mean he's a former world champion, so he must be an expert. But is he really? :) IMO Allen's writings are pretty good.
Wasted Talent
26th May 2009, 11:37
Jenson was not a rookie at BAR. Or maybe he was still a rookie last season too?
Apologies, yes, of course he wasn't a rookie
Point still stands though that it is no good saying JV would be more exciting to watch or faster ....
WT
wedge
26th May 2009, 11:39
I had to stop reading at this point.
I read James Allen's blog because he has first hand contact with drivers, however no offense but he is no way an expert who can analyze the competitive level of F1 cars.
He's very good on Fridays analyzing teams and data.
The pace of development in F1 is such that its difficult to make accurate predictions inbetween races. What works in the wind tunnel/CFD won't necessarily translate in the real world.
Ranger
26th May 2009, 11:40
I agree. James Allen is an idiot. Full stop.
Not a great commentator but his articles are well researched and thought out, and his analyses are pretty good and on the money. Which is why he was a great pit reporter as well.
Which, if you like to use those terms, makes him a lot less of an 'idiot' than Murray Walker (there I said it), Johnathan Legard, Eddie Jordan, Niki Lauda, Alan Jones, Bob Varsha, David Hobbs, etc etc... I could go on.
wedge
26th May 2009, 11:46
Not a great commentator but his articles are well researched and thought out, and his analyses are pretty good and on the money. Which is why he was a great pit reporter as well.
Which, if you like to use those terms, makes him a lot less of an 'idiot' than Murray Walker (there I said it), Johnathan Legard, Eddie Jordan, Niki Lauda, Alan Jones, Bob Varsha, David Hobbs, etc etc... I could go on.
Even DC can be an idiot. On Saturday he kept alluding to KERS and then became stumped clueless with why cars like kept spinning at the swimming pool complex.
If DC did his homework properly instead of keeping cool around the Red Bull motorhome doing feck all then he would've known the like of Toyota and Ferrari were struggling for tyre temperature and nothing to do with KERS ballast.
Sleeper
26th May 2009, 13:19
This is a very interesting discussion. Honestly, I think that Brawn GP and Red Bull, as cars, are pretty evenly matched. If you read the analyzes of experts like James Allen or if you watch the races carefully, you will notice that Brawn enjoys an advantage in tracks, dominated by slow corners, like Monaco, while Red Bull loves fast corners, like Barcelona and is expected to dominate Turkey and Great Britain. Ferrari - we have to wait and see. For sure they are improving, they were behind Toyota, Williams and maybe Renault, but now they are better and are closing on Red Bull and Brawn.
However, Ross is clearly better than either Horner and Domenicalli. In fact, I think that thanks to Ferrari's mistakes, we have not made comments how dreadful the RBR strategy was. In Bahrein and Barcelona they needed Pole, but they fueled Vettel heavy, he was slow at the starts and lost easily. In Monte, where they weren't able to fight for Pole, they fueled him light and even without the tyre issues, he would have been fighting with Rosberg and Alonso at best.
About the drivers, I have to say that after 2006 I was very impressed by Jenson Button and wished him to be a contender. However, Honda sucked badly in the next two years and I think that like many other fans I started to forget him, although I ever regarded him as a very solid driver, on par with Massa for example. This year he proved that with a good car he is very, very good. I am very impress with the way he won the Poles at Spain or Monte Carlo, or the way he overtook Alonso in Malaysia or Hamilton in Bahrain. Speak what you want, but Alonso held Kimi for ages in Sepang and Hamilton proved to be an unmovable obstacle for Vettel in Bahrain. So I think that Jenson proved this season that he is among the best in this sport. I wish him the WDC this season and I hope that he wins it convincingly.
About Seb Vettel, he is very good and fast driver, but he is a bit overrated IMO. Baby Shu, the boy wonder etc. The truth is that he was brilliant in China, average in Bahrain and Spain, foolish in Oz and pathetic in Monte. He also talks too much. He is always held by other drivers and they always cost him the win or the pole. He wanted rain in Malaysia and was the first guy to spin... He is a good driver, but IMO, much like Lewis, is developing a belief that he is "the new star, destined to win", which to me is always unpleasant.
Also, Garry is right, he is exceptional in the wet, but in the dry is just solid.
His results I think must be credited to Newey in the same way we credit Ross Brawn for the success of Jenson.
Now for the championship I think that it is not over. Red Bull for sure is going to be the team to beat in Turkey and GB and maybe Ferrari might trouble Brawn GP as well. So the situation might become very interesting. I personally think that this season might become like 2005 - when Alonso cruised the second part of the season, collecting points, or like 2001, when MS won early because on different tracks he had different rivals, Williams or McLaren.
However, if Brawn and Jenson manage to win the next two races, it might become a massacre, like 2002 or 2004. We have to wait and see, I guess. For now I keep my fingers crossed for Jenson and I hope that Ferrari will manage to overtake RBR!
Good post, though I find the analasys of Mark Hughes and Gary Anderson to be far more in depth and interesting than Allens.
I think your wrong about RBR's strategy, I've never seen anything to suggest they get it very wrong, just that there cars arent too quick off the start line, which means they get jumped off the start quite often, particularly if there's a KERS car nearby. For instance, Vettel has never been fueled heavy, its normally Webber that gets that if either of the two do, and normally only goes a lap or two farther than Button, which should be the better choice but doesnt help when your stuck behind a slower car.
Which, if you like to use those terms, makes him a lot less of an 'idiot' than Murray Walker (there I said it), Johnathan Legard, Eddie Jordan, Niki Lauda, Alan Jones, Bob Varsha, David Hobbs, etc etc... I could go on.
I agree, but he is no F1 expert.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 14:52
OK, ioan, who do you like as an expert?
555-04Q2
26th May 2009, 15:06
Which, if you like to use those terms, makes him a lot less of an 'idiot' than Murray Walker
MW was at least good for a laugh. JA just makes me pull my hair out, what little is left of it anyway :p :
OK, ioan, who do you like as an expert?
What about Garry Anderson or Mike Gascoigne? And other people who know a tad more about a modern F1 car and how it works.
hmmm - donuts
26th May 2009, 18:12
Button, who took 6 seasons for his first F1 win?!
Button - won on race 113
Barrichello - 138
Heidfeld - 158 and counting
So, Button - better than some eh?
Button - won on race 113
Barrichello - 138
Heidfeld - 158 and counting
So, Button - better than some eh?
You could as well compare him to Yuji Ide or Alex Young! :rollleyes:
Go and compare him to Vettel because that's what we were talking about. Than come back and talk.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 19:01
So, ioan, I guess that according to you Lewis is the best?
race_director
26th May 2009, 19:18
how about steve slatter and Alex young ( the guy who sit's in studio somewhere in singapore) alex is a genius, listen to him if ur in asia.
I bet , the meaning of F1 expert changes one you see steve and alex together
So, ioan, I guess that according to you Lewis is the best?
You might want to take the car into account to.
F1boat
26th May 2009, 21:33
The car should always be considered as well as other circumstances.
hmmm - donuts
26th May 2009, 21:34
You could as well compare him to Yuji Ide or Alex Young! :rollleyes:
Go and compare him to Vettel because that's what we were talking about. Than come back and talk.
I'm back to talk - To be honest Ioan, you're the one who always judges Button by how many races it took before his first win, regardless of whether or not he had the car for it - and regardless of whether you're comapring to Vettel.
I'm back to talk - To be honest Ioan, you're the one who always judges Button by how many races it took before his first win, regardless of whether or not he had the car for it - and regardless of whether you're comapring to Vettel.
I compared Button and Vettel looking at their achievement based on their age and races in F1.
How do you want to compare drivers otherwise? Based on their height, weight and eye color?!
You can start judging me as long as you want, I don't give a rat's ass, I'm here to talk about F1.
BDunnell
26th May 2009, 22:31
If you want to 'talk F1', do so as a proper enthusiast, rather than forming your judgments based on a coldly statistical analysis.
hmmm - donuts
26th May 2009, 23:13
How do you want to compare drivers otherwise? Based on their height, weight and eye color?!
.
How about how long before they were given a car that was up to the job?
wedge
26th May 2009, 23:36
What about Garry Anderson or Mike Gascoigne? And other people who know a tad more about a modern F1 car and how it works.
Even Gary Anderson seems clueless. In Autosport he can only allude to McLaren's plight via his specialty as a chassis guru. There could be some truth to the front suspension compromising front-end grip but then it could be bull manure which is all too easy to do when you looking from the outside in.
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 06:34
How about how long before they were given a car that was up to the job?
All the greats won in cars that werent up to the job. Thats what makes them the best.
Button doesnt fall into that category.
F1boat
27th May 2009, 06:43
555, from what I know the 2006 Honda car was not the best...
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 06:49
No it wasnt, but that was no ordinary race. It was a great drive from Button though :up: that any of the greats would have been proud of.
In 2004 Button had the second best car on the grid and still didnt win a race. Hell, even Kimi won in 2004. Button should have won at least one or two races in 2004, but he didnt.
If you want to 'talk F1', do so as a proper enthusiast, rather than forming your judgments based on a coldly statistical analysis.
Why is that you need to attack other forumers?
Put the facts on the table and than we talk, I'm not intretsed in your petty squabbling.
Button did seem to have the knack of leaving a team just before they got good! Good job he stuck around with Honda this time!
Think if he had remained with Renault when they had a good car would we have seen a Button / Alonso pairing?
Button did seem to have the knack of leaving a team just before they got good! Good job he stuck around with Honda this time!
It certain paid off to stick to a team after his early career shenanigans.
Think if he had remained with Renault when they had a good car would we have seen a Button / Alonso pairing?
Did he chose lo leave Renault or did they send him off?
leopard
27th May 2009, 10:53
It certain paid off to stick to a team after his early career shenanigans.
Did he chose lo leave Renault or did they send him off?
It looks like attitude when being trapped in a traffic jam, the best option is to stay in the queue with a firm conviction such traffic jam will end.
One of charismatic drivers has enough legitimacy from skill point of view he would be a worthy champion, no one can stripe him off...
wedge
27th May 2009, 11:15
Think if he had remained with Renault when they had a good car would we have seen a Button / Alonso pairing?
Flavio never liked Button in the first place.
Knock-on
27th May 2009, 11:38
Flavio never liked Button in the first place.
Hardly surprising.
At the time they would have been competing to see who was the biggest playboy.
:D
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 11:43
Hardly surprising.
At the time they would have been competing to see who was the biggest playboy.
:D
Flavour would have won easily. He has more supermodel girlfriends and a bigger yacht :p :
Knock-on
27th May 2009, 11:50
Flavour would have won easily. He has more supermodel girlfriends and a bigger yacht :p :
And bigger ego, chip on his shoulder, superiority complex etc :laugh:
Flavour would have won easily. He has more supermodel girlfriends and a bigger yacht :p :
Not to mention experience! ;)
Big Ben
27th May 2009, 12:57
I find it amanzing that we discuss this. Am I the only one who thinks that noone is able to challenge BGP at the moment?
Knock-on
27th May 2009, 13:05
I find it amanzing that we discuss this. Am I the only one who thinks that noone is able to challenge BGP at the moment?
Well, I don't agree with you there buddy.
BGP have been flawless but RBR are pretty even IMHO. Toyota are blowing hot and cold and Ferrari have real pace that is getting faster and faster as they cut out the cock ups.
BGP just need to carry on not making mistakes and pray the others carry on as they are.
wedge
27th May 2009, 13:16
I find it amanzing that we discuss this. Am I the only one who thinks that noone is able to challenge BGP at the moment?
Ferrari and RBR though Vettel needs to think of a Plan B and like Hamilton, needs to start thinking with head rather than his balls.
Toyota might.
ShiftingGears
27th May 2009, 13:29
Ferrari and RBR though Vettel needs to think of a Plan B and like Hamilton, needs to start thinking with head rather than his balls.
Toyota might.
Everyone seems to have written Webber off already despite the fact that he has finished ahead of Vettel in four races out of six.
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 13:32
I find it amanzing that we discuss this. Am I the only one who thinks that noone is able to challenge BGP at the moment?
I'm with you mate.
Garry Walker
27th May 2009, 14:34
The Brawn had a clear advantage in Oz as well, Button held the gap at around 2-5 seconds for much of the race, but if he wanted to he could have pushed the best part of a second per lap faster. The reason he didnt was because of gearbox reliability worries, he had one fail in testing and Rubens had one go in Malaysia practice.
Second per lap faster? too funny. He said he was struggling for the 2nd half of the race actually
Besides, even if it were so, what would you rather have, a fast race car or a fast quali car :?: I know which one I would take.
Lets be honest here, besides one race, Button hasnt broken a sweat yet. If RB has the fastest car, then how the hell has a driver like Button managed to with 83.33% of the races so far :?:
A fast qualy car. If you are faster in the race, but stuck behind someone, you are fcuked.
Did he chose lo leave Renault or did they send him off?
Flavio didnt want him anymore, so he was pretty much sent off.
David Richards took a risk and hired him.
I do wonder if those who keep on going about Brawn GPs pace realize that fuel adjusted Red Bull was faster at both Bahrain and at Spain or is that far too complicated for them to grasp?
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 14:43
A fast qualy car. If you are faster in the race, but stuck behind someone, you are fcuked.
Only really counts against you at tracks like Monaco and Spain. Tracks like Turkey coming up next, quali pace is far less important than race pace.
Garry Walker
27th May 2009, 14:46
Only really counts against you at tracks like Monaco and Spain. Tracks like Turkey coming up next, quali pace is far less important than race pace.
No.
Take a look at 2007. Massa was faster than kimi in qualifying, kimi was faster in the race. Result? Felipe won, because Kimi had no opportunity to overtake.
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 14:59
Thats one race. It is always better to have a faster race car than quali car.
You can lengthen your stint runs and make up time to overtake people via the pitstops if required. Schumi was an absolute master at this and proved that time and again. Quali is at most 30% of the importance of a race, the exceptions for me being the likes of Monaco and Spain where it accounts for about 90%.
Garry Walker
27th May 2009, 15:08
Thats one race. It is always better to have a faster race car than quali car.
You can lengthen your stint runs and make up time to overtake people via the pitstops if required. Schumi was an absolute master at this and proved that time and again. Quali is at most 30% of the importance of a race, the exceptions for me being the likes of Monaco and Spain where it accounts for about 90%.
Well, in that case look at last year. Kimi was massively struggling with qualifying, but his racepace was always very good. But he couldnt show it because he was stuck behind slower cars.
555-04Q2
27th May 2009, 15:12
Well, in that case look at last year. Kimi was massively struggling with qualifying, but his racepace was always very good. But he couldnt show it because he was stuck behind slower cars.
Please dont get me started on Kimi, I dont have the patience today!
Well, in that case look at last year. Kimi was massively struggling with qualifying, but his racepace was always very good. But he couldnt show it because he was stuck behind slower cars.
There were no new aero nor KERS around last season. And I don't know about Kimi but Felipe and Heidfeld did some superb overtaking moves last season too.
Knock-on
27th May 2009, 15:44
I do wonder if those who keep on going about Brawn GPs pace realize that fuel adjusted Red Bull was faster at both Bahrain and at Spain or is that far too complicated for them to grasp?
That's just crazy talk :D
That would mean that Button and Rubens are doing a great job and we can't have that now, can we?
It's got to be that the Brawn car is 45 minutes quicker per lap and Nakajima would have won 8 GP this year if he were driving it.
(Oh, and I forgot that the reason that Brawn is so good is because Nick Fry is a total waste of time)
It all makes sense when you look at it.
Big Ben
27th May 2009, 18:01
That's just crazy talk :D
That would mean that Button and Rubens are doing a great job and we can't have that now, can we?
It's got to be that the Brawn car is 45 minutes quicker per lap and Nakajima would have won 8 GP this year if he were driving it.
(Oh, and I forgot that the reason that Brawn is so good is because Nick Fry is a total waste of time)
It all makes sense when you look at it.
Your ironical remarks are so subtle and witty.
Rubens doesn´t seem to be doing such an amazing job but I don´t think he´s supposed to so you are right. He´s doing well his job.
Big Ben
27th May 2009, 18:10
Second per lap faster? too funny. He said he was struggling for the 2nd half of the race actually
A fast qualy car. If you are faster in the race, but stuck behind someone, you are fcuked.
Flavio didnt want him anymore, so he was pretty much sent off.
David Richards took a risk and hired him.
I do wonder if those who keep on going about Brawn GPs pace realize that fuel adjusted Red Bull was faster at both Bahrain and at Spain or is that far too complicated for them to grasp?
all those teams that are better or just as good as BGP should fire the entire staff and hire an armchair fuel adjust expert. They keep on talking about reducing costs. Here´s your solution.
wedge
27th May 2009, 23:36
No.
Take a look at 2007. Massa was faster than kimi in qualifying, kimi was faster in the race. Result? Felipe won, because Kimi had no opportunity to overtake.
They were equal that day but Massa did the better job since Kimi had less fuel and messed up his qualy lap.
Well, in that case look at last year. Kimi was massively struggling with qualifying, but his racepace was always very good. But he couldnt show it because he was stuck behind slower cars.
Pit passing - wasn't that one of the ways Kimi beat Massa in 2007?
wedge
27th May 2009, 23:40
Everyone seems to have written Webber off already despite the fact that he has finished ahead of Vettel in four races out of six.
Sure, Webbo will be a threat. It's just that I feel Vettel is throwing his WDC aspirations down the toilet in his last couple of drives.
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5350247,00.html
Red Bull: We're not out of the Championships
Suggestions that Jenson Button and Brawn GP have the World Championships sewn up after just six races are premature, according to Red Bull team boss Christian Horner.
Button's victory in Monaco coupled with Sebastian Vettel's failure to finish the race mean the Brit has a 28-point lead over the Red Bull driver. Things are even worse for the Milton Keynes-based outfit in the Constructors' Championship as they are lagging 43.5 points behind Brawn.
Horner admits they didn't expect much from their car on the streets of Monte Carlo, but is confident they will put up better performances at the Turkish and British Grands Prix.
"I think that we always expected that this track was not going to feature as our strongest circuit," he said. "The Brawn have always been good at this type of track, and Ferrari has definitely made progress over the last couple of races.
"So it will be interesting when we go to Istanbul and Silverstone. Theoretically they are tracks that should come to the characteristics of our car."
Horner also warned that Vettel and team-mate Mark Webber are certainly not out of the running to challenge Button and Brawn for the World Championships.
:s mokin: REDBULL gives you wings :s mokin:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521870,00.html
German authorities banned some retailers from selling Red Bull Cola, as the country considers a nationwide ban after traces of cocaine were found in it, the Daily Mail reported.
A food safety institute in the German state of North-Rhine Westphalia found the drug during a test on Red Bull Cola samples.
"The institute examined Red Bull Cola in an elaborate chemical process and found traces of cocaine," Bernhard Kuehnle, head of the food safety department at the federal ministry for consumer protection, told the Daily Mail.
While the levels of the drug found do not pose a health threat, it is still illegal. The contamination would require the drink to be classified as a narcotic, not a foodstuff.
SGWilko
28th May 2009, 09:44
Well the 2004 BAR was for sure better (compared to the opposition) than last seasons STR, no question about that, still Jenson never won that year.
Oi, I'll set the 'trouble & Strife' on you sonny!!!!
In 2004, Ferrari were faster than anything else by a mile and had legendary reliabiltiy. Oh, and who was also employed them at the time....
MS & Ross Brawn.
Button did not stand a chance.......
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5350247,00.html
Red Bull: We're not out of the Championships
:s mokin: REDBULL gives you wings :s mokin:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,521870,00.html
What's interesting is that no one is banning Coca Cola even though it contains coca extracts too.
Oi, I'll set the 'trouble & Strife' on you sonny!!!!
In 2004, Ferrari were faster than anything else by a mile and had legendary reliabiltiy. Oh, and who was also employed them at the time....
MS & Ross Brawn.
Button did not stand a chance.......
You mean button needs Brawn and the fastest car by a mile in order to win, otherwise he's pants? I think I agree with that. :D
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 10:36
You mean Schumacher needs Brawn and the fastest car by a mile in order to win, otherwise he's pants? I think I agree with that. :D
Yep, works for me :D
Now, back to reality ;)
You mean Schumacher needs Brawn and the fastest car by a mile in order to win, otherwise he's pants? I think I agree with that.
Yep, works for me :D
Now, back to reality ;)
I never posted that.
I actually agree with you there ioan for once ;)
Looks like MS and JB are not that different afterall :D
Only that MS won lots of races without Brawn and without having the best car, quite a difference!
You'll learn more as you will read into the F1 history books. :p :
wedge
28th May 2009, 12:39
Oi, I'll set the 'trouble & Strife' on you sonny!!!!
In 2004, Ferrari were faster than anything else by a mile and had legendary reliabiltiy. Oh, and who was also employed them at the time....
MS & Ross Brawn.
Button did not stand a chance.......
Because Button is crap at polishing a piece of turd.
JPM and Kimi won that year with inferior cars.
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 14:10
Only that MS won lots of races without Brawn and without having the best car, quite a difference!
You'll learn more as you will read into the F1 history books. :p :
Really?
What were the races Schumacher won without Brawn????
wedge
28th May 2009, 14:21
Really?
What were the races Schumacher won without Brawn????
Brawn, Bryne, et al joined Ferrari in 1997.
1996 - 3 wins with Ferrari in the second best car after Williams.
Oh, second best car is rather flattering because Irvine and Schumi both said it was crap because the aero balance was awful, not to mention John Barnard designed his cars and were manufactured in England whilst the engine and gearbox were at Maranello. Makes Honda, Brackley and Tochigi pale in comparison.
Is that another howler ioan? Ross Brawn was at Benetton from 1991 to 1996 and Ferrari from 1996 to 2006? When did Schumacher win races when he was not with Brawn??
It looks like you need to read the history books my friend..But there again I'm sure even you regretted saying that :D
:rotflmao:
So Brawn was working with 2 teams in 1996?! Back to the F1 history books young man! :laugh:
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 14:36
:rotflmao:
So Brawn was working with 2 teams in 1996?! Back to the F1 history books young man! :laugh:
Actually, yes he was. He was with Benetton for the first part of the year and moved to Ferrari later in the year.
You may like to reconsider your previous statement although I will conceed that your history book is different to everyone elses (as it usually is ;) )
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 15:01
Definately, definately says late 1996 so I assume that classes as the same year although he didn't work for Ferrari during the 1996 season. So to answer your question, yes he did work for two teams during 1996.
Schumacher won 3 races during that season without Brawn by his side so I'll have to concede to you there ioan, yes Schumacher did win lots of races during 1996.. If 3 races is lots, then Jenson's one must also mean a considerable? Maybe we can say Jenson won an abundance of victories before Brawns time with the team.. That way everyone is happy.. Wink, wink...
God this record book is heavy I'll let you borrow it when I'm done......
3 race wins, in his first year with Ferrari, in a car that was not the best in the field proves a point in itself. It may not be a "lot" of wins in one season, but still impressive otherwise. Thats why he is one of the greats.
ozrevhead
28th May 2009, 15:10
What we are forgetting is that previous seasons you were able to test and help with developement
there isnt that anymore and its a case of not knowing untill race day
This championship is Jenson and Brawns to lose
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 15:17
I agree 555. It took a talented driver to step into a new team and get results. MS did it, LH did it, FA did it. By itself it is a good indication of a gifted driver.
However, I was picking ioan up on his "lots" claim which is plainly an error.
Similarly, the same people that criticise Buoon for not winning in 04 have got very short memories. They might ask what MS was doing in 2006 if it is so easy to win in a fast car. (And before anyone brings up the USGP, it doesn't count)
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 15:36
I agree 555. It took a talented driver to step into a new team and get results. MS did it, LH did it, FA did it. By itself it is a good indication of a gifted driver.
However, I was picking ioan up on his "lots" claim which is plainly an error.
Similarly, the same people that criticise Buoon for not winning in 04 have got very short memories. They might ask what MS was doing in 2006 if it is so easy to win in a fast car. (And before anyone brings up the USGP, it doesn't count)
I think you mean 2005, not 2006 ;) The minds getting a little old there mate :D
The 2005 Ferrari was at best the third best car, more likely fourth best overall and with the poorer tyres that season. As for the USGP, it counts, but the less said about it the better :)
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 15:42
I think you mean 2005, not 2006 ;) The minds getting a little old there mate :D
The 2005 Ferrari was at best the third best car, more likely fourth best overall and with the poorer tyres that season. As for the USGP, it counts, but the less said about it the better :)
You are quite right. Slip of the finger :)
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 15:46
You are quite right
Now if you can get my wife to understand that I will give you a million pounds, tax free, delivered in a silver briefcase by a 6 foot something blond with DD cups :D
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 15:52
Now if you can get my wife to understand that I will give you a million pounds, tax free, delivered in a silver briefcase by a 6 foot something blond with DD cups :D
Give me her number (photo required as well ;) ) and I'll see what I can do :D
As a downpayment, perhaps you can send the Blonde round as an interim measure?
Actually, yes he was. He was with Benetton for the first part of the year and moved to Ferrari later in the year.
You may like to reconsider your previous statement although I will conceed that your history book is different to everyone elses (as it usually is ;) )
You mean he left Benneton at the end of the season? Please be more explicit next time, poor Henners is going to lose direction with all this lose information you provide him. ;)
This championship is Jenson and Brawns to lose
Well, hopefully they will not disappoint us and lose it in a big way! :D
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 15:57
As a downpayment, perhaps you can send the Blonde round as an interim measure?
I give you a hand and you take an arm :p : Nice try though :D
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 15:58
Well, hopefully they will not disappoint us and lose it in a big way! :D
Classic ioan :) Missed your humour while you were away :p :
Definately, definately says late 1996 so I assume that classes as the same year although he didn't work for Ferrari during the 1996 season. So to answer your question, yes he did work for two teams during 1996.
Schumacher won 3 races during that season without Brawn by his side so I'll have to concede to you there ioan, yes Schumacher did win lots of races during 1996.. If 3 races is lots, then Jenson's one must also mean a considerable? Maybe we can say Jenson won an abundance of victories before Brawns time with the team.. That way everyone is happy.. Wink, wink...
God this record book is heavy I'll let you borrow it when I'm done......
I admit I should have said several, you'll excuse me for I'm not a native English speaker! :D
Now, does 1 win from Jenson qualify as several, I really don't know my language knowledge isn't up to answer this question?! :p :
Classic ioan :) Missed your humour while you were away :p :
One thing I learned in life is to never miss a good opportunity! ;)
wedge
28th May 2009, 16:01
However, I was picking ioan up on his "lots" claim which is plainly an error.
Still a good win count considering Williams was the dominant team and I feel his wins were more on merit compared to Button in 2004.
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 16:03
ioan :laugh: :up:
555-04Q2
28th May 2009, 16:04
Definately I couldn't agree more.. I hope you don't think I am trying to rubbish Schumacher's achievements... I was merely standing up for Button when he was compared to Schumacher in a none Brawn car... It was stated that MS won 'alot' of races when not under Ross Brawn's influence compared to JB, but it has since been proved not to be the case.
Schumacher is a legend there is no questioning that..
No stress mon :up: I understand what you are saying :)
Knock-on
28th May 2009, 16:09
You mean he left Benneton at the end of the season? Please be more explicit next time, poor Henners is going to lose direction with all this lose information you provide him. ;)
I assume it was around that time although I have no proof. I just know it was in the latter part of the year as opposed to the beginning of the year.
That is as explicit as I need to be and am sure Henners has no difficulty understanding it :)
I'm not sure, what is this thread all about as it tries to cover almost about 10 different topics. :D
But I see that Vettel has been mentioned here at times. Well, I personally think that he is experiencing the same phase of his career like Alonso did in 2004 or Hamilton in early 2008. In some periods the expectations may become too high and the pressure starts getting the better of a young driver. But Seb will be back - I'm confident in this.
Before this year I only know of one race that Jenson has a had realistic chance of victory and that was Hungary 06.
I think Button had... at least some kind of a chance at Monza in 2004. Ferraris were narrowly in the points by mid-race, only to lap 2 secs per lap faster than Button & Co to take 1-2. I really think Ferrari wasn't that much superior to others and Button could have posed at least some kind of a challenge...
woody2goody
30th May 2009, 02:58
Jenson only really challenged a few times before this year. Those in my opinion are:
2002 Malaysian GP - Was on for a podium before he struggled with his tyres and ended up 4th I think, however this may not count as he was never in contention for the win.
2003 US GP - Led the race during the pit stops and would have probably finished 2nd or 3rd if not for an engine failure.
2004 San Marino GP - Led the first stint from pole and finished second behind the amazing Ferrari F2004.
2004 Monaco GP - Finished right behind the victorious Trulli after qualifying and racing well.
2004 Chinese GP - Chased Barrichello hard. the Brazilian put in an excellent drive to win.
2006 Australian GP - Qualified on pole but struggled and lost places throughout the race before retiring with engine failure on the last lap.
2006 Hungarian GP - Won the race from 14th on the grid after Alonso retired with a wheel failure.
2006 Brazilian GP - Finished third but never really troubled winner Felipe Massa.
So there are probably 8 half-chances to win races. Even the one he won was a half-chance until Alonso retired. There was never really a great chance to win a race until probably Australia this year. He simply has never had the car underneath him to win. If you'd have transported the 2004 BAR into the 03 season he may have had a shot at a win or two, but the Ferrari was so good in 04 that victory was nearly impossible.
Even in 06 he did a very good job when really the Honda was only a match for the McLaren and not the Ferrari or Renault.
Jenson only really challenged a few times before this year. Those in my opinion are:
2002 Malaysian GP - Was on for a podium before he struggled with his tyres and ended up 4th I think, however this may not count as he was never in contention for the win.
2003 US GP - Led the race during the pit stops and would have probably finished 2nd or 3rd if not for an engine failure.
2004 San Marino GP - Led the first stint from pole and finished second behind the amazing Ferrari F2004.
2004 Monaco GP - Finished right behind the victorious Trulli after qualifying and racing well.
2004 Chinese GP - Chased Barrichello hard. the Brazilian put in an excellent drive to win.
2006 Australian GP - Qualified on pole but struggled and lost places throughout the race before retiring with engine failure on the last lap.
2006 Hungarian GP - Won the race from 14th on the grid after Alonso retired with a wheel failure.
2006 Brazilian GP - Finished third but never really troubled winner Felipe Massa.
So there are probably 8 half-chances to win races. Even the one he won was a half-chance until Alonso retired. There was never really a great chance to win a race until probably Australia this year. He simply has never had the car underneath him to win. If you'd have transported the 2004 BAR into the 03 season he may have had a shot at a win or two, but the Ferrari was so good in 04 that victory was nearly impossible.
Even in 06 he did a very good job when really the Honda was only a match for the McLaren and not the Ferrari or Renault.
Excuses, excuses, pathetic excuses.
UltimateDanGTR
30th May 2009, 11:57
Excuses, excuses, pathetic excuses.
Yes because Jenson doesnt drive for Ferrari, and thus is hopeless :rolleyes:
wedge
30th May 2009, 13:32
Button is only good in a good car. It does what he wants it to do and that breeds confidence and gives him an extra edge. A bit like Massa last year, I suppose.
Everybody goes on about Button's silky smooth style but it doesn't bode well if the car isn't right.
Even with his aggressive style at least Hamilton is making the difference in McLaren.
But credit to Button, he's peaking at the right time. Whether he can sustain that high level against Alonso and Hamilton is a another story.
Yes because Jenson doesnt drive for Ferrari, and thus is hopeless :rolleyes:
Not only he doesn't drive for Ferrari, they would never consider him. :D
Malbec
31st May 2009, 16:08
Not only he doesn't drive for Ferrari, they would never consider him. :D
And why would he want to drive for Ferrari at the moment? So he could face the challenge of driving in the pack as opposed to leading from the front?
DexDexter
31st May 2009, 19:56
And why would he want to drive for Ferrari at the moment? So he could face the challenge of driving in the pack as opposed to leading from the front?
Plus if Button drove for Ferrari and the car turned out to be bad, the press would nail him, call him something like "Benny Hill". They are already calling Räikkönen "Forest Gump". :)
Sleeper
31st May 2009, 20:57
I think Button had... at least some kind of a chance at Monza in 2004. Ferraris were narrowly in the points by mid-race, only to lap 2 secs per lap faster than Button & Co to take 1-2. I really think Ferrari wasn't that much superior to others and Button could have posed at least some kind of a challenge...
I remember that race quite well, the Ferrari's went from 30 seconds behind to 30 seconds ahead of Button in 30 laps. Button raced hard in that race, pulling a good move on Alonso to take the lead early on, but I still think its the only time that year that Ferrari pushed their car for the whole race. The fact that Schumacher and Barrichelo were nose to tale for those 30 laps tells me it was very much a case of car superioraty rather than a driver excelling under the circumstances.
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