Will this be the next generation IndyCar?

[dinosaur]

Sorry to disturb my friends the dreamers but stylin' has nothing to do with aerodynamic efficiency. This nice looking car would be a handful "brick" to handle. Lookin' nice has nothing to do with what really works on a race track.
I think we got so used to be abused by our car manufacturers making stylin' cars with more and more CD to essentially sell to market defined population.
Racecars, I mean formula or sports cars are designed 100% for efficiency with a fine balance between drag and downforce. Styling is a non entity of the car concept. I certainly wish manufacturers and particularly the one that promoted this... thing to work harder on drag reduction and publish it. I know, there is no national formal method defined to measure drag but even so, I can remember some manufacturers working on some prototypes reaching low 0.2 of CD. The cars produced today might still be stuck in the low 0.4, which is a definite source of fuel/energy consumption and shaming what aerodynamicists have been working on for the part 40 years. Let's make sure stylin' is going to be as far away to racing as it can be and let's remind manufacturers the famous CD and its pall the frontal area that is the multiplier of the drag coefficient.

[SportscarBruce]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v387/jonathanwong/thumb_thisthreadisworthlesswithoutp.gif

:D

[Jonesi]

There won't be a next generation Indycar, until another car manufacturer get involve and puts up money. Which won't happen until there's clear evidence that the world economy is coming back. So it's going to be two years out and holding for a while.

[call_me_andrew]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpg

[ChicagocrewIRL]

Besides Dallara and Panoz, who are the other active race car chassis manufacturers ??? (can be any open wheel or sports car prototype series)

[ChicagocrewIRL]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpg

looks like a turtle...uhm turtles are slow .... HELLLL OOOOOOO !!!!!

[jwhite9185]

Besides Dallara and Panoz, who are the other active race car chassis manufacturers ??? (can be any open wheel or sports car prototype series)

Lola... erm...

[Gluaistean]

The one racing now is bad. This one is incredibly ugly.

[Breeze]

.... This nice looking car would be a handful "brick" to handle. Lookin' nice has nothing to do with what really works on a race track.......
While I can't argue with the premise, I'm amazed at your ability to divine a design's aero efficiency simply by looking at it. In my layman's eyes it somewhat resembles this:

[The instant classic]

there wont be a next generation indycar,sad to say cuz nascar picks up all the indycar stars. maybe the grass is greener and the pay checks are bigger, and nascar is less dangerous, so the next gen is not lookin good

[ChicagocrewIRL]

there wont be a next generation indycar,sad to say cuz nascar picks up all the indycar stars. maybe the grass is greener and the pay checks are bigger, and nascar is less dangerous, so the next gen is not lookin good

Thanks Debbie Downer - - - - - wah wah wah wah

[jimispeed]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpg



Sort of reminds me of the AMC Pacer........

Indycars can be sleek, sexy and fast.

I can see what they're going for though.

[Nem14]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpgSleek, clean. It's supposed to have big tunnels.
Looks to me, if it got sideways it would fly really well.

[harvick#1]

there wont be a next generation indycar,sad to say cuz nascar picks up all the indycar stars. maybe the grass is greener and the pay checks are bigger, and nascar is less dangerous, so the next gen is not lookin good

they wont make it, Dario proved it, JV proved it. if anything, if drivers leave, Scott, Dario, Helio, Ryan B, and the talented ones will go sportcars racing

[NickFalzone]

Agreed, and I don't know of any NASCAR driver that has had success in IndyCar. A couple tried going the other way last year and only Hornish got a decent shot with the Penske car. Ultimately it's not about talent, most would agree the best in NASCAR are equally as good as the best in IndyCar. But this year no OW driver went to NASCAR, but a NASCAR driver went to IndyCar, Stanton Barrett. And it's hard for me to judge Stanton's lack of success because he also has one of the weakest cars in the field.

[The instant classic]

they wont make it, Dario proved it, JV proved it. if anything, if drivers leave, Scott, Dario, Helio, Ryan B, and the talented ones will go sportcars racing

i always heard that about Dario going to sportcar even befor he join up with nascar, it woludnt shock me to see Dario end up there
but for Ryan and Helio hard to say sportcar for them cuz MR. Penske pretty much made Sam Hornish race nascar, but i dont get any sportcar racing on tv where i live so not sure if MR.Penske has a team there? if so for sure Helio and Ryan will end up there

[The instant classic]

Thanks Debbie Downer - - - - - wah wah wah wah
:laugh: :D

[harvick#1]

i always heard that about Dario going to sportcar even befor he join up with nascar, it woludnt shock me to see Dario end up there
but for Ryan and Helio hard to say sportcar for them cuz MR. Penske pretty much made Sam Hornish race nascar, but i dont get any sportcar racing on tv where i live so not sure if MR.Penske has a team there? if so for sure Helio and Ryan will end up there

Ryan and Helio won the P2 Class at Petit Le Mans in the Porsche RS Spyder in 2008, Ryan was also in the Spyder full-time in 2007. plus Dario and Scott have both ran in ALMS. they all have exprience in those style of prototypes

[Mark in Oshawa]

Agreed, and I don't know of any NASCAR driver that has had success in IndyCar. A couple tried going the other way last year and only Hornish got a decent shot with the Penske car. Ultimately it's not about talent, most would agree the best in NASCAR are equally as good as the best in IndyCar. But this year no OW driver went to NASCAR, but a NASCAR driver went to IndyCar, Stanton Barrett. And it's hard for me to judge Stanton's lack of success because he also has one of the weakest cars in the field.

Geeze...that Tony Stewart guy wasn't an Indy car driver? Just a champion.....in Indy Car and NASCAR. Argument over....

[Mark in Oshawa]

That car isn't done justice by that picture. It has some interesting lines. I would be more able to be critical one way or the other if I saw the model in person or saw an actual full sized mockup. From what I saw, it isn't any worse than the current car to look at.

[Wade91]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpg
nice! :D

[jimispeed]

From what I saw, it isn't any worse than the current car to look at.


:eek:

[NickFalzone]

Geeze...that Tony Stewart guy wasn't an Indy car driver? Just a champion.....in Indy Car and NASCAR. Argument over....

That proves my point, which is that I can't remember any NASCAR driver winning in an IndyCar in a long time. Tony Stewart was a successful IndyCar driver that obviously went on to much success in NASCAR. But going the opposite way has not had much success.

[Jag_Warrior]

How many NASCAR drivers of any merit have even sat in an IRL Indy car? Some of the IRL's best (and one or two of CCWS') have gone to NASCAR - and none have really set the world on fire, save Stewart. You could (and should) present Stewart as an IRL driver who made it in NASCAR, but he was driving in NASCAR Busch the same year that he joined the IRL. However you want to look at it, the revolving door between the IRL and NASCAR only seems to turn one way. And AFAIK, no upper tier NASCAR drivers are trying, or have tried, to get into the IRL.

But anyway, I'm confused by the first post. Is the picture shown further down in the thread the same picture that the OP meant to put up? What is it and where did it come from? And no, "a POS from the bowels of hell" is not the answer that I'm looking for. Seriously, where did the concept(?) model come from... the design study that Honda and the IRL were working on a year or so ago?

[DBell]

But anyway, I'm confused by the first post. Is the picture shown further down in the thread the same picture that the OP meant to put up? What is it and where did it come from? And no, "a POS from the bowels of hell" is not the answer that I'm looking for. Seriously, where did the concept(?) model come from... the design study that Honda and the IRL were working on a year or so ago?

Confused here as well. I've seen this picture before, but I can't remember where. In your last line I think you have it right. We keep hearing Dallara, and only Dallara, will design and build the next generation IC. This seems like a promotional design exercise.

[methanolHuffer]

http://www.racecar-engineering.com/imageBank/cache/f/Facademy.jpg_e_ea62f9ca4a7e70f26475d6cfde9ec02e.jp g

for $55k a real carbon fiber value

[nigelred5]

From AR1:
"The concept was developed by Dave Marek who heads up the Acura design studio in Pasadena, California. He was involved with the design competition with the Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, CA (The other college was the College of Creative Studies in Detroit) that the league engaged but took it one step further. Everyone seems to love it, even the drivers who all got to see it in NY City this week during the Times Square event. The model shown below is an exact 1/4-scale model that is used in Wind Tunnels. "


IMHO, it looks like a candidate for the 2010 Hotwheels lineup coming to a Walmart near you. Definitely looks like it came straight out of the Speed Racer movie. Cool car, but it just doesn't look like a real race car. I'd be worried that thse sidepods would be a ramp for all sorts of debris and even other cars aimed directly at the driver's head . I can see significant elements in the design that definitely have merit that aren't visible in that view. It has HUGE underbody tunnels, and a split rear wing design very reminiscent of the split wing concept from the F1 overtaking committes. Each wing is actually mostly out over the rear wheels, not between them. It definitely incorporates many of the recent ideas that address most criticisms of current formula cars- reduction of the reliance on wings for aerodynamic grip. the placement of the canard like front wings may also keep them up and more out of harms way, but they also look like they could be used deliberately in a deathrace 2000 method.
http://66.223.111.192/Images/2009/IRL/Indy/CarbDay/CarbDay3.jpg

http://66.223.111.192/Images/2009/IRL/Indy/CarbDay/CarbDay1.jpg

[methanolHuffer]

The Swift 017.n / FN09 uses engines very similar to the Honda the IRL is using now.
I have no idea what these things cost, but they're pretty.

[call_me_andrew]

Of course that split wing would never work on an oval. Without end plates it'll just spin out exiting the turns.

Plus the next car is going to be turbocharged and that has an airbox.

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, that^^^ is certainly....er, "different".

But I still find this old Menard's concept to be sort of interesting.
http://www.autoracing1.com/Images/2005Misc/MenardsPrototype.jpg

[SoCalPVguy]

I have a pic, but I don't suggest looking at it.

http://cms.internetcontrasts.com/images_cms/2//hondaspec.jpg

Look up the definition of 'non-aerodynamic" and you'll find a picture of this tank.

[UltimateDanGTR]

Well, that^^^ is certainly....er, "different".

But I still find this old Menard's concept to be sort of interesting.
http://www.autoracing1.com/Images/2005Misc/MenardsPrototype.jpg

now that looks lovely-muh better than the proposed tank of a car.

This is certainly better looking than the current cars aswell.

[Lousada]

It certainly doesn't look like another stupid boring Euro-Formula car. If they are all the same they might as well make something unique and stylish. It has a large nearly flat bodywork so a lot of room for sponsors.
My concern is that those wings look like knives. If a pitmember catches his elbow on that rearwing it looks like it will chop his arm straight off.

[anthonyvop]

Look up the definition of 'non-aerodynamic" and you'll find a picture of this tank.
Actually quite the opposite.

Small frontal area and the large side-pods lend to huge ground-effect tunnels.

Still pretty ugly.

The New F-2 cars are running Turbo motors and have airboxes.
http://www.automobilesreview.com/uploads/2009/03/avon-tyres.jpg

[Gluaistean]

now that looks lovely-muh better than the proposed tank of a car.

This is certainly better looking than the current cars aswell.

I agree with this look, although it would not be my choice. I like the GP2 but this new thing is horrific. According to AR1 this car is being touted by Honda and there is a complete article by Mark C stating they have hit it out of the park. For me they have hit me out of the park if they introduce this piece of garbage.

I have lost interest in F1 , my one time fav form of racing because of the radical retro design. I prefer GP2 now becuase the cars look better and the racing is great.

[Andrewmcm]

That first car looks dangerous. Possible wheel-to-wheel contact would make a car ride up those sidepods and straight onto the driver's head. Which wouldn't be very good at all.

Edit: Ooops sorry nigelred5, I didn't read that bit in your post where you say much the same thing as I do....

Also the turbulence from the rotating rear wheels would make those winglet things virtually useless.

[nigelred5]

I imagine the ineffectiveness of the wings is intentional. They are there simply for the traditionalists in us that say an Indycar has to have wings, and they may actually beenough to fine tune the handling while not actually generating a great deal of downforce.

I still think it looks like a Hot Wheels.

[garyshell]

I imagine the ineffectiveness of the wings is intentional. They are there simply for the traditionalists in us that say an Indycar has to have wings, and they may actually beenough to fine tune the handling while not actually generating a great deal of downforce.

I still think it looks like a Hot Wheels.

Traditionalists? Which traditionalists? Some of us remember when there were no wings at all. That coupled with harder tires and HP out the wazoo meant you really got to see folks wrestle the car around the track.

Gary

Besides Dallara and Panoz, who are the other active race car chassis manufacturers ??? (can be any open wheel or sports car prototype series)


Lola... erm...

Swift, Tatuus & Mygale all make single seaters.

Some of us remember when there were no wings at all.

Gary

Yes, Gary, but we also used to burn witches.

[dinosaur]

OK guys, what I meant starting this thread is that race cars are not a styling exercise. They are conceived exclusively on engineering knowledge summing efficiency in response to a set of rules.
I do not want to spend too much time detailing the styling exercise that has been published here in AR1 but not one element I am seeing has a potential level of efficiency. Now, I can assume some of us will question my judgment.
May I say that I am a race car aerodynamicist. This allows me to have some concerns to see a race car being conceived exclusively on styling, with no knowledge of what makes a race car efficient or not.
The money spent for this project could have been spent wisely using a race car engineering company to propose a realistic project from which elements could be used in the concept of a new Indy Car.
Some of you could think that the Dallara is so ugly that something should be made to avoid such strange looking car. I certainly agree. One has to understand that the Dallara is an efficient race car on fast oval tracks, nevertheless, in every engineering exercise, many options are available that can ultimately create something nice to look at or ugly, both final products being efficient.
Today, the Indy Car is racing on all type of tracks as it was during the CART era. The new car will need to be designed to be faster on road and street courses and still keep the efficiency on ovals, including the Indy Speedway.
Lola and Reynard were able to achieve this task and I am sure that Dallara or any other race car manufacturer would be able to achieve that efficient compromise as well.
But please, please, please, no stylin', no talk about tire ratio that applies only in stylin' studio, no wing on top of tires (where the tire generate a reverse airflow killing the low pressure on the extrados of the wing with this feature to be destroyed by sand-blasting within minutes or running), no air intake wherever it seems to create something other than limiting air intake to the necessity, no monumental sidepods that increase tremendously the frontal area (drag) without protecting better the driver (would be worst with that lateral ramp aiming to the driver's head), no strange looking front wing that would require complicated structures to support and transfer downforce and no nose leading edge so close to the ground that it would lift up cars under rearward hit. I forgot, the driver need to see other than his sidepods in his mirrors...
Anyway, the list is longer than that but this exercise is only to warn against stylin's in racing where "arteeest" concept has not space, time and energy to be spent.
Thank you.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Traditionalists? Which traditionalists? Some of us remember when there were no wings at all. That coupled with harder tires and HP out the wazoo meant you really got to see folks wrestle the car around the track.

Gary

I would love no wings or very little wing personally. Bring it on...this new car just looks kind of goofy, as does that Menards artist conception.