Rumors of Open Wheel's impending demise

[SportscarBruce]

along with that of the Indianapolis 500,

including bump day

and a genuine television partnership

were greatly exaggerated.

:)

More to come.

[SportscarBruce]

Curiously awaiting this week's offering of contractually influenced, intellectually handicapped, ethically compromised talking points disguised as expert opinions.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_Fxfjqk5LDqY/SayJBnZonMI/AAAAAAAAAkY/eSt-Tl10sNs/s320/Dave+Despain+WT.jpghttp://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UfBePUbn2Us/R0GYUg-xNII/AAAAAAAABRQ/4eZWOc2I9PY/s200/robinmiller.jpg

Today I witnessed something special. Hopefully you did too. This was Bump Day at Indy as authentic, dramatic, and unpredictable as ever before. We saw John Andretti and his Dreyer and Reinbold crew grab success from the depths of failure. D&R reached deep into their bag of Indy knowledge, pulled out a radical series of chassis and aero adjustments, sent John Andretti back out for another 4-lap attempt, and when the checkered flag fell lept from the depths of Did Not Qualify dispair up onto the 10th row. Such an achievement is noteworthy, but what made it truly special - sheer determination born. At this time and place it wasn't money or goals of self-recognition that drove this team. A sense of duty for a respected colleague fueled their effort. The Petty Blue and STP Red Windows World team has gained a devoted fan.

maybe, just maybe, Windbag and Blowhard will take this example of mutual respect and insert it into the program by reporting on Indycar and the Indy 500 with objectivity. I hope so, I really do.


to be continued

[SarahFan]

.15

[MDS]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.

Also, that "interview" that Tony George gave really couldn't be less inspiring. He has the personality of a monotone sloth and the mind of a dull razor blade. I still have grave doubts about the future of American open wheel as long as he is in control of it.

[DBell]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.

Also, that "interview" that Tony George gave really couldn't be less inspiring. He has the personality of a monotone sloth and the mind of a dull razor blade. I still have grave doubts about the future of American open wheel as long as he is in control of it.

That's an insult to monotone sloths everywhere.

[call_me_andrew]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.

Also, that "interview" that Tony George gave really couldn't be less inspiring. He has the personality of a monotone sloth and the mind of a dull razor blade. I still have grave doubts about the future of American open wheel as long as he is in control of it.

On the contrary, I'd say that was the most lively I've ever seen him.

That is to say he appeared to be awake.

[anthonyvop]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.

So?

You can have the greatest "bump day" in history and it won't matter if nobody saw it.

[beachbum]

So?

You can have the greatest "bump day" in history and it won't matter if nobody saw it.The power of positive thinking.......

I saw it. I think it was one of the greatest bump days. But I guess I am nobody. Sigh :(

[chuck34]

.15

As someone said on another thread. Let's fold up the tent and go home.

Your constant bashing is getting old. I know, I know, "the Biz is an open topic for discussion". But come on man, just look at the bright side for once. Is that too much to ask?

[chuck34]

The power of positive thinking.......

I saw it. I think it was one of the greatest bump days. But I guess I am nobody. Sigh :(

I'm nobody plus one. *double sigh*

[SportscarBruce]

Did anyone see highlights on Sportscenter?

[SarahFan]

As someone said on another thread. Let's fold up the tent and go home.

Your constant bashing is getting old. I know, I know, "the Biz is an open topic for discussion". But come on man, just look at the bright side for once. Is that too much to ask?

sorry Chuck... but keeping things in perspective....reality is Television drives the sport.... period!......and facts are AOWR aka Indycar has so far in 2009 seen the lowest opening rounds from a TV ratings perspective in the sports history... including a .15...

INDY500 Pole day saw it's lowest rating in its history

you call it constant bashing.... I call it reality..... and lets be honest..... I discuss the racers, teams and on track happenings as much if not more than anyone on this forum


as for the bright side.... enjoyed the racing so far... coverage has been improved over the recent past.... had a great time in LONG beach and I fly to INDY on friday morning........

[chuck34]

sorry Chuck... but keeping things in perspective....reality is Television drives the sport.... period!......and facts are AOWR aka Indycar has so far in 2009 seen the lowest opening rounds from a TV ratings perspective in the sports history... including a .15...

INDY500 Pole day saw it's lowest rating in its history

you call it constant bashing.... I call it reality..... and lets be honest..... I discuss the racers, teams and on track happenings as much if not more than anyone on this forum


as for the bright side.... enjoyed the racing so far... coverage has been improved over the recent past.... had a great time in LONG beach and I fly to INDY on friday morning........

*Rant On

Look man, no one around here likes the low ratings. WE GET IT. THE RATINGS SUCK. NOW GET OVER IT. I'm sick of it, others are sick of it. Perspective or not, we all know where we are. Most of us are happy about the direction. Moaning about low ratings does nothing. You like the product, I like the product, so why not talk it UP instead of down? Is that really so damn hard?

Let's talk about the good stuff.

*Rant off

[SarahFan]

*Rant On

Look man, no one around here likes the low ratings. WE GET IT. THE RATINGS SUCK. NOW GET OVER IT. I'm sick of it, others are sick of it. Perspective or not, we all know where we are. Most of us are happy about the direction. Moaning about low ratings does nothing. You like the product, I like the product, so why not talk it UP instead of down? Is that really so damn hard?

Let's talk about the good stuff.

*Rant off

your a ranter..... And your telling me how when where and why to post

[chuck34]

You can post whatever you want and whenever you want. I'm just expressing the frustration I (and MANY others) have with your posts. It sure seems that you focus quite a lot on the negatives. We get it. As has been brought up many times, why don't you come up with some solutions if you think everything is so horrible. All that I have seen you do is complain. I (and many others) don't like where we are now, but we see a path forward. That path will be much easier if everyone is pulling in that direction. Right now we don't even have "fans" pulling that direction, as evidenced by most of your posts.

[SarahFan]

You can post whatever you want and whenever you want. I'm just expressing the frustration I (and MANY others) have with your posts. It sure seems that you focus quite a lot on the negatives. We get it. As has been brought up many times, why don't you come up with some solutions if you think everything is so horrible. All that I have seen you do is complain. I (and many others) don't like where we are now, but we see a path forward. That path will be much easier if everyone is pulling in that direction. Right now we don't even have "fans" pulling that direction, as evidenced by most of your posts.

problem here is your wrong...

the path isn't forward its backward........

may I suggest your frustration isn't with me....your simply useing me as an outlet to project your frustration...

the solution is simple...

Tony George turns over control of the IRL to a collective of team owners who in turn hire an iron-fisted commissioner to lead the sport....



and as to your claim of my posting always being negative I'd gladly compare my posting history to any on this board...... I post as much or more than any member about the racers, teams and on track activity as anyone.....more than most

[chuck34]

My frustration IS with you. I am quite happy with the new found sence of direction I see coming from 16th & G'Town.

Why would the owners want control? They've pretty much all been there, done that. I don't hear anyone wanting anything like that. Really the only thing I ever hear from the owners is how TG and Barnhart listen to what they want and act accordingly. Now maybe that is all "for the public". But I would guess that if it was not you would hear some rumblings "underground". And for all your hatred for TG, do you not agree that he is 'iron-fisted'? Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

And I never said that your posting was ALWAYS negative, just a lot of it. Like posting a comment of ".15" in a thread that was intended to be positive. How was that constructive?

[SarahFan]

My frustration IS with you. I am quite happy with the new found sence of direction I see coming from 16th & G'Town.

Why would the owners want control? They've pretty much all been there, done that. I don't hear anyone wanting anything like that. Really the only thing I ever hear from the owners is how TG and Barnhart listen to what they want and act accordingly. Now maybe that is all "for the public". But I would guess that if it was not you would hear some rumblings "underground". And for all your hatred for TG, do you not agree that he is 'iron-fisted'? Be careful what you wish for, you just may get it.

And I never said that your posting was ALWAYS negative, just a lot of it. Like posting a comment of ".15" in a thread that was intended to be positive. How was that constructive?


but again your wrong..... the direction is not forward its backward.... perhaps when you can admit that we can have a rational discussion about the state of the sport......

I'm sure the owners were wispering in Tony's ear to sign a ten year TV contract with a 3rd tier broadcaster becuase it would be great to have the lowest ratings in the sports history.... that would surely make things easier in there quest for top tier sponsors and help with there ability to hire and pay the best racers in the world..... yep I'm sure that's exactly how it went....

does constant not =always?

.15 is reality..... sorry if you would prefer glossed over..... you wont get it from me..... perhpas you should take a clue from Down town deco and simply put me on ignore......

[chuck34]

Why is the direction backward? If the ONLY thing you look at is ratings (which I guess is all you see) then maybe. But I'm looking at the package and I see progress. So you are wrong.

The owners were probably wispering in Tony's ear to get them on a network that gave a damn about the sport. That way they have the oportunity to grow the sport. Not just stagnate like they have for the past decade.

If I put you on ignore, I wouldn't be having so much fun.

[SarahFan]

Why is the direction backward? If the ONLY thing you look at is ratings (which I guess is all you see) then maybe. But I'm looking at the package and I see progress. So you are wrong.

The owners were probably wispering in Tony's ear to get them on a network that gave a damn about the sport. That way they have the oportunity to grow the sport. Not just stagnate like they have for the past decade.

If I put you on ignore, I wouldn't be having so much fun.

TV ratings drive the sport.... its not just my opinion...its a fact...

progress?.... a league created in ovelcentricity focused on giving young american short track oval racers a better opportunity to compete in the I500....the IRL has discountinued racing at 11 ovals... while adding street and raod coarse to the tune of 8 tracks over the past 5 years.... and they are now talking about South america and china...

progress?.... or lack of focus and direction?

I'm sure they were thinking NBC, Fox or CBS.... when they heard Versus I'm sure they did the same us most of us.... Who?.What?.. Huh


and GO SARAH!!!

[chuck34]

If TV ratings drove the sport it would have been dead looooooong ago. There are plenty of sports out there that don't have the ratings that the IRL have. So it's not a fact, it's your opinion.

Ok I'll give you that the IRL has gone away from being ovalcentric. And I do wish there were more ovals (good ones not cookie cutters). But that also adds to my point about TG listening to the owners in his series.

Progress? You want Progress? From what starting point. It hasn't been that long ago that you didn't get more than about a 1 hour wrap up show about the 500 and nothing else. We could go back to that.

They may have been thinking those other networks, but I haven't heard any complaints about Vs. Did you not hear Penske at St. Pete? He sure sounded positive about it. Maybe it's because he's been around long enough to remember a little upstart network that when people first heard about it they said Who? What? huh. You may have heard of them now, ESPN.

and Go Sarah Go!!!!

[chuck34]

First, while the two of you are are definately not on the same page, I commend you both for keeping your disagreement polite. This is not a cheerleading board and legitimate criticism is appropriate. Though sometimes there can be a bit too much of it.

Has either of you considered that the contract with Verses is because no one else was interested? Or at least not interested enough to offer a better deal? Verses at least is doing good quality productions. Staying on the ESPN group was, IMO, not an option. Either way it is what it is and there is no going back. Personally, I don't believe the low ratings are the fault of being on Verses. It's more the low place OW has fallen to as a direct result of the "split".

First off, thank you. I try to be civil, and hope I am. Sometimes I get a bit sarcastic, which can be seen as un-civil.

And yes I have considered that. And it is most likely the case. Vs was probably the the only network that offered a deal that involved good quality productions. Moving to NBC/CBS/FOX and getting the same treatment as ABC/ESPN was not an option for the IRL, and it was probably the option those guys put on the table. I agree that the "split" has a lot to do with the low ratings. That and the fact that Vs currently isn't in as many households.

[SarahFan]

Has either of you considered that the contract with Verses is because no one else was interested?".

i think thats precisely the case.....

[methanolHuffer]

While I'm glad that Vs. has stepped up to show the races, I'm more confused as to why SpeedTV couldn't work out a deal.

They've pretty much been enveloped by the popularity of stock car racing and reality television and the Speed Report and Wind Tunnel illustrates this.

I remember the Speed Channel when it first came on, it was decent. Now it's hard to expect anything positive from.

[chuck34]

While I'm glad that Vs. has stepped up to show the races, I'm more confused as to why SpeedTV couldn't work out a deal.

They've pretty much been enveloped by the popularity of stock car racing and reality television and the Speed Report and Wind Tunnel illustrates this.

I remember the Speed Channel when it first came on, it was decent. Now it's hard to expect anything positive from.

You answered their own question. They are all caught up in NASCAR and Pinks. Maybe now that they've seen Alex Lloyd's car that'll change?

[SarahFan]

You answered their own question. They are all caught up in NASCAR and Pinks. Maybe now that they've seen Alex Lloyd's car that'll change?


you going to the big race this weekend chuck?

[chuck34]

you going to the big race this weekend chuck?

Yep, up top in the North Vista. Hope the rain holds off. They're calling for rain here in Northern Indiana on Sunday. But what do they know?

[call_me_andrew]

progress?.... a league created in ovelcentricity focused on giving young american short track oval racers a better opportunity to compete in the I500....the IRL has discountinued racing at 11 ovals... while adding street and raod coarse to the tune of 8 tracks over the past 5 years.... and they are now talking about South america and china...

progress?.... or lack of focus and direction?

They tried the all-American all-oval thing, and it didn't work. Now they race on road courses. That's called an exit strategy.

[garyshell]

They tried the all-American all-oval thing, and it didn't work. Now they race on road courses. That's called an exit strategy.

Or coming to their senses.

Gary

[beachbum]

While I'm glad that Vs. has stepped up to show the races, I'm more confused as to why SpeedTV couldn't work out a deal.

They've pretty much been enveloped by the popularity of stock car racing and reality television and the Speed Report and Wind Tunnel illustrates this.

I remember the Speed Channel when it first came on, it was decent. Now it's hard to expect anything positive from.
SPEED is owned by FOX. It has become a shill for FOX's N-Car coverage. It is sad to see how it has fallen. SPEED was never an option.


They tried the all-American all-oval thing, and it didn't work. Now they race on road courses. That's called an exit strategy.
Another optimist. Reminds me of another forum where I can read as many posts like this as I want as fans fight a war that ended over a year ago. You should post there and you will gets lots of cheers of support. But even their former hero PT called for them to give up the lost war and move on.

Stater got it right. Versus was the only network who was interested in producing a product that would promote and support the IRL. Look at the situation with ALMS. SPEED did a good job with Sebring, as it does with Petit, but the other races are delayed coverages that show up in unwanted time slots when no one is watching. The IRL didn't need that.

There seems to be one unexpected big positive with the Versus coverage. Sure the rating are dismal (in the US about the same as that other lessor series called F1), but the coverage is fantastic. But it is the tone and focus of the coverage that is the biggest plus. The fans expressed for years that TV had to show the human side of racing, and they have with great interviews, a look at all of the teams and drivers, and humor. Where have you ever heard AJ Foyt talk about going after Arute with a big water pistol - with a completely straight face?. Or Danica crack a very drool, and very funny comeback to a Marco remark while standing in a parking lot without a handler? Never.

Everyone involved just seems to be having fun, and it seems to be rubbing off as positive energy. Witness the Twitter explosion with many drivers and some media having lots of fun with the medium. I don't like Twitter, but if you haven't looked at the sites of Kannan or Morias, you should as they can be seriously funny.

http://twitter.com/mariomoraesindy
http://twitter.com/TonyKanaan

After qualifying, drivers ended up on comedy shows, not your typical talk shows. For the first time in a long time, we are getting to see the drivers as real people with real personalities.

Versus is listening to the fans and it is showing. If the IRL is going to grow, you couldn't ask for a better partner. If this type of coverage doesn't eventually help move the sport forward, then open wheel will never be more than a niche sport. But it took N-car decades to built to their current level, so if someone is expecting a big ratings bump in the first few months of the relationship, they are smoking something. It is going to take time for the word to get out, and the Versus user base to expand. Frankly, it is just refreshing to see open wheel treated with respect in the media.

[SarahFan]

SPEED is owned by FOX. It has become a shill for FOX's N-Car coverage. It is sad to see how it has fallen. SPEED was never an option.


Another optimist. Reminds me of another forum where I can read as many posts like this as I want as fans fight a war that ended over a year ago. You should post there and you will gets lots of cheers of support. But even their former hero PT called for them to give up the lost war and move on.

Stater got it right. Versus was the only network who was interested in producing a product that would promote and support the IRL. Look at the situation with ALMS. SPEED did a good job with Sebring, as it does with Petit, but the other races are delayed coverages that show up in unwanted time slots when no one is watching. The IRL didn't need that.

There seems to be one unexpected big positive with the Versus coverage. Sure the rating are dismal (in the US about the same as that other lessor series called F1), but the coverage is fantastic. But it is the tone and focus of the coverage that is the biggest plus. The fans expressed for years that TV had to show the human side of racing, and they have with great interviews, a look at all of the teams and drivers, and humor. Where have you ever heard AJ Foyt talk about going after Arute with a big water pistol - with a completely straight face?. Or Danica crack a very drool, and very funny comeback to a Marco remark while standing in a parking lot without a handler? Never.

Everyone involved just seems to be having fun, and it seems to be rubbing off as positive energy. Witness the Twitter explosion with many drivers and some media having lots of fun with the medium. I don't like Twitter, but if you haven't looked at the sites of Kannan or Morias, you should as they can be seriously funny.

http://twitter.com/mariomoraesindy
http://twitter.com/TonyKanaan

After qualifying, drivers ended up on comedy shows, not your typical talk shows. For the first time in a long time, we are getting to see the drivers as real people with real personalities.

Versus is listening to the fans and it is showing. If the IRL is going to grow, you couldn't ask for a better partner. If this type of coverage doesn't eventually help move the sport forward, then open wheel will never be more than a niche sport. But it took N-car decades to built to their current level, so if someone is expecting a big ratings bump in the first few months of the relationship, they are smoking something. It is going to take time for the word to get out, and the Versus user base to expand. Frankly, it is just refreshing to see open wheel treated with respect in the media.

hit the archives of "That Other Forum"....bring up the dates surrounding Champcar and the Spike TV debacle and you can read 100's of identical posts

[Hoop-98]

A few differences:

Speed never "activated" as the "fans" hoped.
Better product with the combined assets
Indy 500 on OTA

That said, there isn't really much we can do about it, so after the 50th time we bring it up it might be bordering on the redundant ;n)

What's going to happen will happen. Should be an interesting 500, cya at Texas!

[garyshell]

hit the archives of "That Other Forum"....bring up the dates surrounding Champcar and the Spike TV debacle and you can read 100's of identical posts

And after the first race on Spike it was obvious that the whole thing was FUBAR. After a few races on Versus, it is pretty obvious THIS has a CHANCE at actually working. The coverage is fantastic, the channel is actually interested in the product, there is real promotion on channel and off channel. Come on Ken, it's pretty clear that ANY comparison to the ChampCar Spike deal is ridiculous at best.

Gary

[SarahFan]

And after the first race on Spike it was obvious that the whole thing was FUBAR. After a few races on Versus, it is pretty obvious THIS has a CHANCE at actually working. The coverage is fantastic, the channel is actually interested in the product, there is real promotion on channel and off channel. Come on Ken, it's pretty clear that ANY comparison to the ChampCar Spike deal is ridiculous at best.

Gary

yep no comparison at all.... completly rediculous

except all the hype......and the ratings of coarse

[PA Rick]

Look on the brighrt side. The crowds are small enough to get to see the cars and drivers up close and personal. When a series is popular you can't get access like you can when a series is smaller. Like Spinal Tap's later years, it allows the players to get closer to the fans.

[garyshell]

yep no comparison at all.... completly rediculous

except all the hype......and the ratings of coarse


Sure the hype was the same BEFORE the first show on Spike. Then it disappeared. And yes you are right, the ratings are the same, so what? How does that validate the comparison?

I still think it is clear that there is a vast difference in the Spike deal the the Versus one. The former had zero or less than zero chance of EVER working. The latter has at least some hope. Look, don't get me wrong. I am not saying the Versus deal is perfect, far from it. All I am saying is that, in SUBSTANCE, it is nothing like the Spike deal.

Gary

[SarahFan]

How does that validate the comparison?



Gary

what more validation do you need?

.3, .5 and .15 speak for themselves....and thats not even factoring in the lowest rated poleday in history also

[SarahFan]

http://tvbythenumbers.com/2009/05/19/nba-playoffs-nascar-and-wwe-raw/19069

from a bit of a different angle folks...

the first Oval of the year for the IRL garnered 4% of the audience as last weekend sprint cup race ...

it would take 24 races to equal the amount of viewers that watched ICARLY last weekend

[chuck34]

*****, Ken!!! We all know the damn ratings suck. Give it a rest already. What the hell do you want? Pull the plug on the whole deal right now, go begging to ABC, and get the same crappy product we've gotten for the last decade? What will that get us, a marginal, very marginal, uptick in ratings? The ratings are so low now that if we went from the ~.4 average to a ~.6-.8 average, what is that like 100,000 more people? Is that really enough to sacrifice the good quality product we have on TV? Give it a chance, if nothing changes in about a year-year and a half, then you'll have every right to bitch.

What would you do if you were in charge to get a better TV package?

[garyshell]

what more validation do you need?

.3, .5 and .15 speak for themselves....and thats not even factoring in the lowest rated poleday in history also


So with that logic it would be valid to say that the reruns of the "Golden Girls" is just like the ChampCar Spike deal because the ratings are the same? One bit of detail, i.e. the ratings does not make for a valid comparison of the deals in light of all the other big differences between the two deals. Yes, the ratings are similar, I agreed with you on that a long time ago. But there is nothing else that I can see that looks similar at this point.

I don't know the answer to this, but how does one compare the ratings from last years pole day which spanned fewer hours with this years? As an advertiser how does it matter to me that I am getting half the number of viewers over twice the amount of time? I am not saying it doesn't matter. I am trying to figure out how an advertiser DOES quantify that situation.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Christ Almighty, Ken!!! We all know the damn ratings suck. Give it a rest already. What the hell do you want? Pull the plug on the whole deal right now, go begging to ABC, and get the same crappy product we've gotten for the last decade? What will that get us, a marginal, very marginal, uptick in ratings? The ratings are so low now that if we went from the ~.4 average to a ~.6-.8 average, what is that like 100,000 more people? Is that really enough to sacrifice the good quality product we have on TV? Give it a chance, if nothing changes in about a year-year and a half, then you'll have every right to bitch.

What would you do if you were in charge to get a better TV package?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvgMIerTXl4

[SarahFan]

But there is nothing else that I can see that looks similar at this point.

Gary


seriosly Gary?

nothing?

[SarahFan]

I don't know the answer to this, but how does one compare the ratings from last years pole day which spanned fewer hours with this years? As an advertiser how does it matter to me that I am getting half the number of viewers over twice the amount of time? I am not saying it doesn't matter. I am trying to figure out how an advertiser DOES quantify that situation.

Gary


sounds like a three day attendance discussion to me....not sure we should go there......might teak a downtowndeco nerve

[chuck34]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RvgMIerTXl4

Can't watch Youtube here at work. Wanna give me a run down?

[SarahFan]

Can't watch Youtube here at work. Wanna give me a run down?


work is overrated

tell me you dont wear a tie and wake up everyday to an alarmclock

[chuck34]

work is overrated

tell me you dont wear a tie and wake up everyday to an alarmclock

I don't wear a tie, but I do wake up to an alarmclock. :-(

[garyshell]

seriosly Gary?

nothing?


Between the Versus deal and the Spike deal? Nope, I seriously see nothing at all similar between them other than the CURRENT ratings. I truly mean that. The content is VASTLY different. The channel commitment is VASTLY different. The channel promotion is VASTLY different. The potential is VASTLY different. The Spike deal never had a glimmer of hope from day one. The Versus one has that glimmer.

Gary

[garyshell]

I don't know the answer to this, but how does one compare the ratings from last years pole day which spanned fewer hours with this years? As an advertiser how does it matter to me that I am getting half the number of viewers over twice the amount of time? I am not saying it doesn't matter. I am trying to figure out how an advertiser DOES quantify that situation.

Gary


sounds like a three day attendance discussion to me....not sure we should go there......might teak a downtowndeco nerve


Who cares if he get's his panties in a bunch. I sure as hell don't. No, really, I am curious about this. I do wonder what the measure is, for the advertisers. I would think that they WOULD factor in the length of the show as well, simply because it gives them the opportunity to get their message out more often. But if the eyeballs are them same does it matter to them? Is one message to 100 sets of eyeballs the same as two messages to 50 eyeballs. Or to put it another way, is one messge to 100 eyeballs the same as two messages to 100 eyeballs? I doubt that either of those "formulas" is right, but I don't know WHAT formula they would use. Hence my question.

But my point is that I think the length of the show is a factor, therefore the .15 for this year is probably not as bad as it looks. It's bad, I agree. I am just trying to figure out HOW BAD in the eyes of the folks footing the bill.

Gary

[Hoop-98]

ChampCar during the low years:

90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value

IndyCar 2009

145M in Team Budgets
125M in JJ Sponsor Value.

Neither is a real healthy situation but they are not really comparable.

Now these are my best guess gross approximations I don't want to micro-argue every point but after the 2009 Indy 500 the Sponsor Value for IndyCar will be several times higher than any year of ChampCar.

Now back to the regularly scheduled argument..

Here's to first safe, second good race, and third, let's close the gap on the TV on the Concord 600....

Cya @ Texas!!
Go Horns CWS.....


rh

[chuck34]

Ok Hoop I need some explaination, I'm too slow. Is the Team Budget what they spend? And is JJ Sponsor Value what a Sponsor can expect in return? Or am I way off base?

[SarahFan]

Ok Hoop I need some explaination, I'm too slow. Is the Team Budget what they spend? And is JJ Sponsor Value what a Sponsor can expect in return? Or am I way off base?


total budget for the entire grid is 145mil..... Joyce julius (which does factor length of broadcast and amount of mentions and screen time etc as well as attendance)....will result in 125mil total sponsor value...


Hoop?...are those 2008 figures and not 2009?... or were those 2009 projections?

[SarahFan]

*editors note:... not 100% sure if JJ #'s factor in attendance....

[Hoop-98]

Yes, Team Budgets, are my approximation of Team budgets, - direct compensation such as prize money.

I deliberately low balled the JJ value for INDYCAR, they may hit 125 at INDY alone.

Joyce Julius and Associates prepares a "Sponsors Report" that has two components.

The Time a Sponsors name or logo appears on TV times the Ad Rate for the event.

"As one of the most watched sporting events, the race has a high advertising rate, said Eric Wright, vice president of research and development at the sponsorship research firm Joyce Julius & Associates in Ann Arbor, Mich.It doesn't take a winning driver to have the most sponsors. It does, however, take skill and charisma, looks and potential, Angstadt said.
Which brings us back to Patrick and our rankings of who will be the most valuable drivers in Sunday's Indianapolis 500.
Last year, Patrick placed 22nd at the Speedway, but she still pulled in about $15 million for her personal and team sponsors, according to Joyce Julius.
The logos for her team and personal sponsors, including Motorola, GoDaddy.com and AirTran, spent so much time on TV that they rivaled that of Target, sponsor of winner Scott Dixon's team, Target Chip Ganassi Racing. Target was on TV for 14 minutes; sponsors associated with Patrick and her team, Andretti Green Racing, were on for about 38 minutes.
This year, Patrick is in much the same position, if not a better one. Not only does she still count GoDaddy.com and Motorola among her sponsors, but she's also picked up Boost Mobile.
Primary sponsorships in the IndyCar Series range from $2.5 million to $7 million, though few companies ever cite exact investment amounts."

rh



The

[Hoop-98]

*editors note:... not 100% sure if JJ #'s factor in attendance....

Ken AKA SFF, it is the time prominently displayed, visible etc * ad rate.

This is really what caused the end of CART, not some sellout by evil men.

When Target looked at the value numbers of one race, the Indy 500, equaling an entire season in CART the die was cast.

Now at the end of this year I would guess IRL is down from 08 but I wouldn't be surprised if they hit 180M.

So AD Rates and time sold is what really counts, not ratings. Of course ratings drive the former 2, but the worst case scenario for the IRL this year is 4-6 times better than Champcar's worst case.

I'm not saying it is all fine. or even sustainable, just a lot different.
Now this is about all I am going to say on this, back to racing.


rh

[SarahFan]

Ken AKA SFF, it is the time prominently displayed, visible etc * ad rate.

This is really what caused the end of CART, not some sellout by evil men.

When Target looked at the value numbers of one race, the Indy 500, equaling an entire season in CART the die was cast.

Now at the end of this year I would guess IRL is down from 08 but I wouldn't be surprised if they hit 180M.

So AD Rates and time sold is what really counts, not ratings. Of course ratings drive the former 2, but the worst case scenario for the IRL this year is 4-6 times better than Champcar's worst case.

I'm not saying it is all fine. or even sustainable, just a lot different.
Now this is about all I am going to say on this, back to racing.


rh


come on hoop.... ratings drive the cost of the ads...

how much is an advertiser going to pay for .15

[Hoop-98]

Come on sf indy will be over a hundred ... U just love typin .15 lol

[SarahFan]

Come on sf indy will be over a hundred ... U just love typin .15 lol


and it will be on ABC... which is a seperate deal...

and you like pretended you dont like participateing in these threads.... yet you do over and over on everyone of them...


back to your regularly scheduled racing

[Hoop-98]

Everyone of them is a flat out lie goodbye**

[SportscarBruce]

The NHL bounced back on Versus, so will IndyCar.

Is it just me, or are there a greater variety of sponsors this year over last? If so that's impressive considering the cutbacks occurring elsewhere.

:)

[SarahFan]

Everyone of them is a flat out lie goodbye**

now its just getting silly

[Rex Monaco]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.

Also, that "interview" that Tony George gave really couldn't be less inspiring. He has the personality of a monotone sloth and the mind of a dull razor blade. I still have grave doubts about the future of American open wheel as long as he is in control of it.

Best post of the thread!

[-Helix-]

but again your wrong..... the direction is not forward its backward....

i like how you say that as if your own personal opinion is scientifically proven fact...

personally, I'm loving the Versus coverage and IndyCar is actually kinda fun again. Seems positive to me. Now they just need those new cars and some of the old great tracks.

are ratings important? yeah, i guess for TG and those who reap the benefits of good ratings.. but for me as a race fan? nope. couldn't care less actually. fans will start tuning into Versus eventually if the product is good

[Bob Riebe]

[quote="MDS"]It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.
QUOTE]
That is merely your opinioin.

[garyshell]

It is worth pointing out that its the first meaningful bump day since the IRL was created.
QUOTE]
That is merely your opinioin.


So which part do you disagree with, that it was meaningful or that it was the first meaningful once since the split?

Gary

[The instant classic]

So?

You can have the greatest "bump day" in history and it won't matter if nobody saw it.
totally agree with you,

[FormerFF]

I would say that this year's bump day was the most entertaining one in many years, but I'm not sure how it got that way says much about the strength of the series one way or the other, it was more a matter of Sunday's track being faster than Saturday's. When the weekend started, there were 35 car and driver combinations trying for the 33 spots. It was fairly apparent that two of these, Stanton Barrett and Buddy Lazier, were going to have trouble making the field, and that there were three others, Ryan Hunter-Reay, Milka Duno, and Nelson Phillipe that were not very strong. So, Bruno Junqueria was added as a last minute entry. He didn't get out onto the track until Sunday morning, but was immediately quick enough in practice to show that he would almost certainly be able to bump someone out, which he did in one attempt. It was fairly apparent in Sunday morning's practice that the track was a couple of mph quicker than it had been on the previous day, and that was absolutely confirmed when Milka Duno went out and ran a 221.1 while essentially driving down the middle of the track. To me, that said that anyone who had less than a 221 was vulnerable, and if I were a team manager of a car who had qualified at less than that, I'd have gotten in line immediately and gone out and requalified, and then had the rest of the day to work on race setup.

There is always a certain amount of risk in requalifying, but if you're trying to avoid risk, you're in the wrong sport.

[Bob Riebe]

So which part do you disagree with, that it was meaningful or that it was the first meaningful once since the split?

Gary
I guess one could say both, the first since the IRL was formed was the main ghist.
Whether it means anything is strictly in eyes of the beholder.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Let me jump in late.

First off, the TV coverage is good but the ratings suck. (ABC/ESPN actually do suck still, but VS is the majority of the coverage, hence the good rating) Fact of life, you cant heal 13 years of confusion, disinterest and mismanagement in 3 months. It wont and cant happen. This is going to be a long hard slog to maybe get back to half what NASCAR is. Better get used to that reality.

Secondly, while it was great we had a bumping process, when 45 cars are going for 33 spots, THEN WE HAVE BUMP DAY in spades. What we had this year was interesting, only because for all the years we had two series, there was no bumping. When Roger Penske's team misses Indy, THAT's Drama. Whether Stanton Barrett makes or doesn't make the field isn't drama.

3rd, while I am optimistic Barnhart knows what he is doing on running the actual on track product, and I have been impressed by the professionalism on that side of things, I still worry that the marketing and management of the series as a whole is still chasing around trying to find a strategy and focus.

The TV product looks and sounds good and VS has to be given credit for putting the effort in. The results are going to have to wait until either people start cluing into this product or start getting VS. But I still don't know if Tony George has learned a damned thing from the last 14 years. I just don't think he has a vision that makes any sense and he cannot articulate it. He never built the Speedway, he is a caretaker of it, and while he has done some good things for it in allowing in NASCAR, F1 and MotoGP, he never got the IRL to any sort of level that made you think he really understands how to market the product. In short, I would really like him to focus on his track, and leave the IRL to others. Be a silent partner and let the series go and evolve.

He made a mistake in 93, and he has corrected part of his folly by at least admitting he needed the other side and putting the egg back together again, but there is 13 years of lost opportunities, lost fan base and lost attention from the media. We wont get that back in 3 months and we may not get it back in 10 years. If someone can find a way to energize the public marketing wise, the product is almost back to where it was in the early 90's. When the economy improves, I think we will see 26 car fields on a regular basis, maybe more. The depth of field is coming back and we just need a bit more variety in setups and car design to help add some spice from that angle.

OW racing was on life support, but I think it is out of the ICU. The situation is no longer critical. I would say the patient is now in Serious condition. That is to be expected with the turmoil and pain of the last decade and a half. Give it time boys...give it time...

[SarahFan]

i like how you say that as if your own personal opinion is scientifically proven fact...

personally, I'm loving the Versus coverage and IndyCar is actually kinda fun again. Seems positive to me. Now they just need those new cars and some of the old great tracks.

are ratings important? yeah, i guess for TG and those who reap the benefits of good ratings.. but for me as a race fan? nope. couldn't care less actually. fans will start tuning into Versus eventually if the product is good



Overnights are out.....

Wanna take a stab at where they rank before I post it?

[Hoop-98]

Whatever they are, must be a "Smack" in the face ;n)

rh

[SarahFan]

Whatever they are, must be a "Smack" in the face ;n)

rh

are you suggesting there not

[garyshell]

Whatever they are, must be a "Smack" in the face ;n)

rh


are you suggesting there not


Jeeze Ken, why so freakin' confrontational? Hoop didn't say a thing to that effect.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Jeeze Ken, why so freakin' confrontational? Hoop didn't say a thing to that effect.

Gary



Multi forum culture going Gary

[garyshell]

Multi forum culture going Gary


Huh? Ya' lost me on that one bud.

Gary

[DBell]

Huh? Ya' lost me on that one bud.

Gary

Sent you a pm Gary. That should clear it up.

[CCWS77]

ChampCar during the low years:

90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value

IndyCar 2009

145M in Team Budgets
125M in JJ Sponsor Value.

Neither is a real healthy situation but they are not really comparable.

Now these are my best guess gross approximations I don't want to micro-argue every point but after the 2009 Indy 500 the Sponsor Value for IndyCar will be several times higher than any year of ChampCar.



rh



I deliberately low balled the JJ value for INDYCAR, they may hit 125 at INDY alone.


These numbers are interesting. What seems to be missing is an analysis of the JJ number for the IRL or I500 separately. Using your numbers then it would be something like this:

Champ Car
90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value

IndyCar 2009
145M in Team Budgets
100M in JJ Sponsor Value I500
25M in JJ sponosr value rest of the IRL

I dont wish to a big argument about the unification again, but I'm at a loss at how the IRL is considered in a better financial position then Champ Car ever was. If the story from today shows anything, it is that simply rolling in profits of the I500 as if it was a direct part of the IRL is a mistake and the not the proper long term way to look at it.

unfortunately the ship has sailed on what would have been the only easy fix to balance these numbers in the black

Champ Car
90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value
100M JJ value for the I500

The notion that the IRL and the I500 were intrinsically linked precluded that possibility. Today, that idea seems in great question

[Hoop-98]

These numbers are interesting. What seems to be missing is an analysis of the JJ number for the IRL or I500 separately. Using your numbers then it would be something like this:

Champ Car
90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value

IndyCar 2009
145M in Team Budgets
100M in JJ Sponsor Value I500
25M in JJ sponosr value rest of the IRL

I dont wish to a big argument about the unification again, but I'm at a loss at how the IRL is considered in a better financial position then Champ Car ever was. If the story from today shows anything, it is that simply rolling in profits of the I500 as if it was a direct part of the IRL is a mistake and the not the proper long term way to look at it.

unfortunately the ship has sailed on what would have been the only easy fix to balance these numbers in the black

Champ Car
90M in Team Budgets
25M in JJ Sponsor Value
100M JJ value for the I500

The notion that the IRL and the I500 were intrinsically linked precluded that possibility. Today, that idea seems in great question

No doubt, no 500 no IRL...

In the late 90s the JJ's for CART were in the 200s the two series crossed around 2002. That's when Target saw the SV of the 500 was = to the CART season.


Without the 500 IRL = CCWS, a no go for sure.

rh