View Full Version : Mosley: "Sad to see them leave..."
veeten
2nd May 2009, 14:31
... if Ferrari wants to.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74995
But, Luca, try to justify to the BOD the need for higher spending if others are doing great in F1 without doing so.
Pull that rabbit out of the hat, okay? ;)
christophulus
2nd May 2009, 14:43
Max really is a clever sod. Backs up what I thought, the manufacturer teams will have to accept the budget cap or leave.
UltimateDanGTR
2nd May 2009, 14:46
christophulus is right. with the advantages budget caps get, all the teams will have to choose the budget cap to be competitive I think. Clever clever Max, maybe he can be alright after all............
Standard mosley 'negotiating'. Its my way or the high way.
F1boat
3rd May 2009, 07:20
IMO Ferrari should not go to war with the FIA. What happened to McLaren, can happen to them as well.
christophulus is right. with the advantages budget caps get, all the teams will have to choose the budget cap to be competitive I think. Clever clever Max, maybe he can be alright after all............
I wouldn't go that far! Max is a devious little tyrant who will try to crush anyone who doesn't fall in line with his thinking. Reminds me of a "little Hitler" (inference intended.)
UltimateDanGTR
3rd May 2009, 08:38
I wouldn't go that far! Max is a devious little tyrant who will try to crush anyone who doesn't fall in line with his thinking. Reminds me of a "little Hitler" (inference intended.)
Why do I find Little Hitler to be perfectly appropriate? :D
thats a good way of looking at it though, ''Mein Vay oder Getz Lozt!'' :D
IMO Ferrari should not go to war with the FIA. What happened to McLaren, can happen to them as well.
I'd like to see them avoid the "war" by pulling out of F1 and entering a different series like LMS/ALMS. How about a diesel Ferrari Prototype at LeMans in 2010? There is also talk of "Fiat" providing the engines for IRL (hmm, who would build the "Fiat" engines???).
I wouldn't go that far! Max is a devious little tyrant who will try to crush anyone who doesn't fall in line with his thinking. Reminds me of a "little Hitler" (inference intended.)
It just strikes me as a group of 5 year olds fighting over a game of kiddy football. Max says 'its my garden so its my rules" and ferrari say "fine we're taking our ball and going home".
F1boat
3rd May 2009, 09:59
I'd like to see them avoid the "war" by pulling out of F1 and entering a different series like LMS/ALMS. How about a diesel Ferrari Prototype at LeMans in 2010? There is also talk of "Fiat" providing the engines for IRL (hmm, who would build the "Fiat" engines???).
A Ferrari LMP 1 car would be fantastic, but IMO there is no series which can give Ferrari the same prestige as F1 - neither IRL nor Le Mans can do this IMO.
A Ferrari LMP 1 car would be fantastic, but IMO there is no series which can give Ferrari the same prestige as F1 - neither IRL nor Le Mans can do this IMO.
Maybe we should be asking if the name Ferrari can give a series prestige? A couple of Ferrari LMP 1's romping around Europe in the LMS and the US in ALMS would give a lot of publicity to those series (and probably cost Ferrari a lot less.)
Would F1 then be as popular or as attractive to the casual fan without the name Ferrari racing?
It just strikes me as a group of 5 year olds fighting over a game of kiddy football. Max says 'its my garden so its my rules" and ferrari say "fine we're taking our ball and going home".
More like Max is saying, "it's my garden so I'll change the rules as often as I want until I get my way."
ArrowsFA1
4th May 2009, 13:25
Interesting comments from Bernie re: Max v Ferrari:
Ecclestone is smoothing troubled waters in Mosley’s wake. “The trouble with Max is he’s not capable, like in the past, of wrapping things up nicely with a pink ribbon and things. He wants to put it in an old cardboard box and tie it with string,” Ecclestone said.
The billionaire impresario said that he would not allow Mosley to “destroy” Di Montezemolo, as some at Ferrari believe he is intent on doing.
“I won’t let it happen,” he said.
“The trouble with Luca,” he said of the flamboyant Ferrari president, who has engaged in a war of words with Mosley in correspondence that was subsequently leaked to the press, “is that you shouldn’t let Max ever be in a position where he can start a debate or an argument. He’s reasonably clever and you won’t win. Even if you do win, it’s like you being in the audience and me being there with the microphone. You say something smart and I don’t give you the microphone — it’s as easy as that.”
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6216238.ece
veeten
4th May 2009, 13:57
Maybe we should be asking if the name Ferrari can give a series prestige? A couple of Ferrari LMP 1's romping around Europe in the LMS and the US in ALMS would give a lot of publicity to those series (and probably cost Ferrari a lot less.)
Would F1 then be as popular or as attractive to the casual fan without the name Ferrari racing?
another history lesson...
Ferrari 333SP
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferrari_333_SP
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/ferrari333.html
Bernie: I'll protect Ferrari
http://www.planet-f1.com/story/0,18954,3213_5278544,00.html
The F1 supremo admitted that he is however in favour the budget caps, but suggested that the £40 million cap may be increased to £60 million for next year
Dave B
4th May 2009, 14:31
Interesting comments from Bernie re: Max v Ferrari:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6216238.ece
Seems like only a few seasons ago that Max and Bernie were joined at the hip while the teams were in disarray. Now the teams are united via FOTA - at least for the time being - while Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber appear constantly at loggerheads.
"Appear" is the key word in that. Those two are still thick as theives and will be showing a unified front again just as soon as they have what they want/need.
Dzeidzei
4th May 2009, 18:59
Seems like only a few seasons ago that Max and Bernie were joined at the hip while the teams were in disarray. Now the teams are united via FOTA - at least for the time being - while Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber appear constantly at loggerheads.
Well, Bernie sees the real big picture. WIth Ferrari gone F1 would be half as interesting which would eventually turn into half the money. You just wont have the same crowds following Brawn beating Red Bull.
N. Jones
4th May 2009, 19:32
This is posturing on all sides. They all need each other and a compromise will be found, so I am not worried.
BDunnell
4th May 2009, 19:40
I'd like to see them avoid the "war" by pulling out of F1 and entering a different series like LMS/ALMS. How about a diesel Ferrari Prototype at LeMans in 2010? There is also talk of "Fiat" providing the engines for IRL (hmm, who would build the "Fiat" engines???).
Diesel Ferrari? No way! But given that a great deal of the marque's motorsport-related lustre is derived from its sportscar racing days as well as F1, I would love to see a return to Le Mans as part of a proper worldwide sportscar racing series.
mstillhere
4th May 2009, 20:09
... if Ferrari wants to.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74995
But, Luca, try to justify to the BOD the need for higher spending if others are doing great in F1 without doing so.
Pull that rabbit out of the hat, okay? ;)
I read about Mosley's comments but I am not too sure anyone has talked about Ferrari's point of view. So, in order to bring a little balance in to this conversation I am going to do it. Ferrari is not against the cap. Ferrari is instead asking Mosley, the divider, how do you make sure that nobody overspends? What he is going to do? Get all the Mercedes, Renault, BMW bank accounts and checks them? Are the F1 teams supposed to put their finacial statements in Mosley's hands?
The rules are going to be so complicated that the Byzantynes themselves would be confused. Just go back and read them. Not that easy to understand if you are a new F1 fan.
And then, feel free cancelling all grand prix in Italy, since nobody would go. Include Canada and the USA to that. Rest assured though that in Turkey, China, Malaysia, oh, almost forgot, India, you'll see massive F1 fans attendance.
And now let's analyze the reasoning behind it. Mosley's reason, apparently is to save money, right? That was the idea for this year too. Well as it turns out, this year many teams did not save a dime. Due to "misinterpretation" of the rules many teams are spending a lot of extra money to cacth up with the other teams.
Say something like that would happen with the cap in place. How were the teams left behind supposed to catch up? Oh, wait..I got the answer. It's simple....silly me...they don't. So, we'll see a couple of teams, the smart ones, taking off winning race after race and everybody else, the stupid ones, after a couple of races giving in and stop compete for the year.
Boy this sure sound like a sound well thought out plan. It sure is....
BDunnell
4th May 2009, 20:14
I certainly agree with the concerns about 'policing' the cap. It's a very legitimate question. If it can be done, with everyone toeing the line, then Ferrari should have no complaints and ought to be able to manage. If not, and it proves meaningless, their view would be completely justified.
Knock-on
5th May 2009, 10:25
But Max is going to put 3 people into every team to police the cap which he will probably charge back to the teams from their budget :rolleyes:
I postulate that this is little more than sabre rattling on the part of Ferrari. The fact is that with a little creative accounting and exchanges through audit trails which the FIA would not be allowed to look at, they could set the figure at just €1 and still meet the budget cap.
If an SpA were to set up a series of shelf SpAs then transactions cound be had inside the group at €0.01 and no-one would be any the wiser.
What happens for instance if all the development is done by a Trust? They'd be running at a loss, then export the losses to another company. It would show up as a net liablity on the books and you could in theory run it as technically insolvent. I mean, if even I as a lowly accountant know how to do this sort of caper, then a fully functioning company with a legal team worth Euromillions would find it a walk in the park.
Seems like only a few seasons ago that Max and Bernie were joined at the hip while the teams were in disarray. Now the teams are united via FOTA - at least for the time being - while Tweedle Dumb and Tweedle Dumber appear constantly at loggerheads.
The way I see it, Bernie and Max are two different kettles of fish.
Max is very principled and tries to stick to those principles. Admittedly IMO he is misguided, out of touch, and just plain wrong with half the things he suggests, but he does have his convictions and he'll stick to them.
Bernie on the other hand, only cares about one thing - money. And he'll flip to whichever side of the fence, argument, opinion, whatever that will make him the most money.
For example - he is shifting most races away from Europe to developing countries that will pay him greater sanctioning fees - more money in his pocket. BUT THEN he'll mess about with starting times to theoretically snare a greater share of the TV audience in Europe - more money in his pocket.
In this situation - he supported the budget cap thing because it means the teams will be less justified in asking for a bigger slice of the FOM cake, BUT he'll do his utmost to butter-up Ferrari and keep them onside, because they help draw a bigger crowd and make him more money.
At least Max is consistent with his messing up of the sport. Although the upshot of that is I find myself disagreeing with Max 100% of the time, and Bernie only about 99% of the time :)
mstillhere
5th May 2009, 17:49
I postulate that this is little more than sabre rattling on the part of Ferrari. The fact is that with a little creative accounting and exchanges through audit trails which the FIA would not be allowed to look at, they could set the figure at just €1 and still meet the budget cap.
If an SpA were to set up a series of shelf SpAs then transactions cound be had inside the group at €0.01 and no-one would be any the wiser.
What happens for instance if all the development is done by a Trust? They'd be running at a loss, then export the losses to another company. It would show up as a net liablity on the books and you could in theory run it as technically insolvent. I mean, if even I as a lowly accountant know how to do this sort of caper, then a fully functioning company with a legal team worth Euromillions would find it a walk in the park.
Are you actually serious? And how do you make sure that a team is not getting funds from else where?
mstillhere
5th May 2009, 18:01
And besides, Ferrari is not the only team disagreeing with Mosley. that's what Mario Thiessen has to say:http://it.eurosport.yahoo.com/05052009/8/f1-bmw-tende-mano-ferrari.html In a nut shell, he says; "Ferrari speak for everyone".
I guess we can be without BMW as well.
It's standard early-discussion FIA versus the teams fare. The end result will be somewhere between the two.
BDunnell
5th May 2009, 20:53
It's standard early-discussion FIA versus the teams fare. The end result will be somewhere between the two.
Couldn't agree more.
Are you actually serious? And how do you make sure that a team is not getting funds from else where?
This is precisely what I said. A sufficiently well enough designed corporate structure should ensure that the flow of costs outwards and funds inwards would be either impossible for the FIA to police or illegal.
mstillhere
6th May 2009, 04:15
Here you have what M. Thiessen said in English, so that you can read it yourselves: http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090505182818.shtml
PS thank you Rollo for your explanations
It's standard early-discussion FIA versus the teams fare. The end result will be somewhere between the two.
But as close to Max's proposal as he can get it! :(
Knock-on
6th May 2009, 08:59
It's standard early-discussion FIA versus the teams fare. The end result will be somewhere between the two.
I think Max will stick to a budget cap but the teams will have sway with how that budget is defined.
If the teams accept that, then they know it will get tightened up over the next few years so they may not go for it.
But, as you say, typical Max negiotiation.
mstillhere
10th May 2009, 00:49
The latest from Toyota about Mosley's genious ideas and those of you who thought Ferrari was the only team who was disagreeing with the budget cap: http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/75164
Hum...let's see, so far we have Ferrari, Toyota and BMW totally out if Mosley does not change his mind. And I got a feeling Renault and others are thinking about it. Also many drivers, including Alonso, Webber and Kimi http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/09052009/58/raikkonen-quit-f1.html OR http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/08052009/23/drivers-ferrari-f1-wouldn-t-f1.html, would quit F1 if these are not changed without mentioning what Rosberg has said in terms of some pilots passing out because of the strict diet all the pilots are following. There is one thing I like about Mosley's idea, in a couple of years even I or you could have a F1 team with a couple of hundres dollars. Now, that's what I call democracy. :)
PS Next time you want drag Ferrari in to the mud, just do your homework first
F1boat
10th May 2009, 08:11
you could have a F1 team with a couple of hundres dollars. Now, that's what I call democracy. :)
It's communism, actually ;)
Dave B
10th May 2009, 10:19
The cynic in me wonders if Toyota see this as the perfect excuse to bow out with their reputation intact, rather than with their tail between their legs like Honda.
EuroTroll
10th May 2009, 12:37
I've always been for the budget cap idea. I think it would be great - if it could be policed. I really hope Max pulls this one off!
And if we lose Toyota, I'd be rather happy about that, actually. :D What a sad story it has been! In terms of "bang for buck", they've got to be one the greatest failures in F1, ever.
And instead of Toyota, we'd probably have a number of small, efficient, hungry little racing teams, trying to get into F1. :up: Pre-qualifying, anyone? ;)
Really, I generally dislike Max and the never-ending stream of FIAscos as much as the next man, but I really hope they make this one work!
I am not as anti-manufacturer as many others. Yes, the main counterargument is that they may not stay F1 long-term and may leave 'unexpectedly', but let's look at the other side too.
Car manufacturers increase the popularity of F1. Everyone knows them, people have usually their own preferences among cars too. Mercedes vs BMW vs Honda - a battle of giants. This is what creates attention. Lola vs USGPE vs Minardi? Welll, sorry - who are they? Some unknown tiny enterprises. F1 with car giants has in this decade been more popular than ever before. Who cares, who wins the teams' title in GP2? All small private teams, as you know (although they don't develop their own car).
F1boat
10th May 2009, 18:52
Well, I dunno for me to see the name of great engineer like Brawn is more exciting that a bland corporate name.
Dave B
10th May 2009, 18:53
Lola vs USGPE vs Minardi? Welll, sorry - who are they? Some unknown tiny enterprises. F1 with car giants has in this decade been more popular than ever before.
Although I recall F1 doing quite well with the likes of Tyrrell, Brabham, McLaren, Williams, Benetton... hardly big name manufacturers.
veeten
10th May 2009, 19:01
I am not as anti-manufacturer as many others. Yes, the main counterargument is that they may not stay F1 long-term and may leave 'unexpectedly', but let's look at the other side too.
Car manufacturers increase the popularity of F1. Everyone knows them, people have usually their own preferences among cars too. Mercedes vs BMW vs Honda - a battle of giants. This is what creates attention. Lola vs USGPE vs Minardi? Welll, sorry - who are they? Some unknown tiny enterprises. F1 with car giants has in this decade been more popular than ever before. Who cares, who wins the teams' title in GP2? All small private teams, as you know (although they don't develop their own car).
Actually, the reason for F1's success in recent times is more to something else: Marketing.
Manufacturers have always been involved in F1 since it began, even long before WW I & II. It is only with the advent of the FISA/FOCA wars, and the change from Ballestre-led to Ecclestone-led ideas that gave rise to auto manufacturers willingness to become a larger part of the game.
Ferrari, Alfa Romeo, Matra, Renault, Ford, Honda had manufacurer teams in the mix, along with independents (or, as Enzo 'politely' called them, "Garagistas") like Tyrrell, Lotus, McLaren, Brabham, and others. The big time came in the form of increased revenue from Broadcasting and merchandising liscensing contracts, most of which were brokered through BE. Everything else, from client entertaining to mass media came in response to all of what transpired. It is more corporate enterprise that's paid for most of what present-day F1 has, and now that revenue is shrinking due to the present economic times, that same entity is having a harder time explaining that while people are being laid-off or sacked outright, the executives are attending races at the Hospitality suites sipping champagne and scarfing down expensive foods.
Even teams are having to scale back on such things, and the new arrivals will be similar to what Brawn GP is; a racing team, pure and simple.
Many of the manufacturers will be doing the same, in some fashion, as time goes.
Well, I dunno for me to see the name of great engineer like Brawn is more exciting that a bland corporate name.
Although the same great technical director of Brawn has worked for factory teams like Ferrari and Honda. ;) One doesn't exclude other.
Although I recall F1 doing quite well with the likes of Tyrrell, Brabham, McLaren, Williams, Benetton... hardly big name manufacturers.
It can also be mentioned that the support and partnership with car manufacturers has played quite a big part in the success of teams like McLaren, Williams and Brabham. :)
Veeten - good post. :up:
Somebody
10th May 2009, 20:12
Although I recall F1 doing quite well with the likes of Tyrrell, Brabham, McLaren, Williams, Benetton... hardly big name manufacturers.
Benetton ARE a big-name manufacturer... just not of cars.
Like Red Bull today, they ran an F1 team as an advert.
mstillhere
10th May 2009, 22:15
The list keeps in getting longer. Now even Red Bull is not going to be in F1 unless Mosley changes his mind:http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090510222405.shtml
I am expecting Mosley any time now coming out with an announcement pretty much recanting everything he has said about the cap and let the FOTA members introduce their changes on how to reduce expenses in F1.
IF he is not going to I don't know if F1 will survive even with the addition of Penske, and some other team without any F1 followers.
Dave B
11th May 2009, 07:46
Benetton ARE a big-name manufacturer... just not of cars.
Like Red Bull today, they ran an F1 team as an advert.
True, but I was rebuffing the idea that F1 needs large car manufacturers to remain popular with the public. Personalities like Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton do more to attract and retain an audience than seeing Toyota vs BMW.
markabilly
11th May 2009, 12:34
True, but I was rebuffing the idea that F1 needs large car manufacturers to remain popular with the public. Personalities like Senna, Schumacher and Hamilton do more to attract and retain an audience than seeing Toyota vs BMW.
Yes, very very true
Nikki Katz
11th May 2009, 19:20
This is beyond a joke now. So all of the existing teams bar Williams and perhaps Brawn and Force India are going to pull out, and be replaced by a load of teams that have to finalise their plans by the end of the month?
Max will back down over this. But probably not before taking downpayments from the new teams, then changing the rules so that they can't participate but keep hold of the money, as he did with Prodrive.
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