Indycool, Where art thou?

[SarahFan]

you have always been heavily involved in Attendance and Ratings threads involving AOWR...

I miss your contributions

are you still interested in the BIZ of the sport?

what are your thoughts on the first three races of the year from a Biz standpoint?

[indycool]

Still around, SarahFan, but have been a bit sick and offline lately. I would think low ratings for Versus would be expected throughout the year, or about the same as the ESPN/ESPN2 numbers. There's a 10-year deal in place with Versus and no one knows the "out" clauses. It LOOKS like a growth-together type deal. Versus has the bullriders and NHL and is trying to build a sports channel. The Indy cars are trying to build an audience. Length of contract indicates both are trying it for the long haul. I don't think anyone thought that it would be an automatic ratings boost of major consequence.

[SarahFan]

Still around, SarahFan, but have been a bit sick and offline lately. I would think low ratings for Versus would be expected throughout the year, or about the same as the ESPN/ESPN2 numbers. There's a 10-year deal in place with Versus and no one knows the "out" clauses. It LOOKS like a growth-together type deal. Versus has the bullriders and NHL and is trying to build a sports channel. The Indy cars are trying to build an audience. Length of contract indicates both are trying it for the long haul. I don't think anyone thought that it would be an automatic ratings boost of major consequence.


two part question..

A. do you think they expected the lowest ratings in the history of AOWR out of the gate for the first three races?

B. both CART and Champcar went out of biz with ratings even a bit better than the .3,.5 and .15 to open the season...... how long can the IRL stay in biz with ratings that low?.... or will Tony's comments of the IRL not having ever turned a profit just continue, with the IRL limping along financially funded from the IMS coffers?

[garyshell]

two part question..

A. do you think they expected the lowest ratings in the history of AOWR out of the gate for the first three races?

B. both CART and Champcar went out of biz with ratings even a bit better than the .3,.5 and .15 to open the season...... how long can the IRL stay in biz with ratings that low?.... or will Tony's comments of the IRL not having ever turned a profit just continue, with the IRL limping along financially funded from the IMS coffers?


Oh, come on Ken give it a rest already. He just said he thought that everyone expected low ratings. What else do you want him to say?

And the second question just dredges up the same tired argument about whether or not Tony was serious in his remark. We covered it already, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. No one knows except King George and he isn't talking.

Been there done that. What's the point of covering the same ground again, when there can be no new answers given, unless you or anyone else can get inside King Georges head to answer part B, or the sponsors' heads to address part A.

Now, before you accuse me of not wanting to talk about the business of racing, I do. But what I don't want to do is go back over the same tired questions that couldn't be answered then and can't be answered now.

Gary

[SarahFan]

Oh, come on Ken give it a rest already. He just said he thought that everyone expected low ratings. What else do you want him to say?

And the second question just dredges up the same tired argument about whether or not Tony was serious in his remark. We covered it already, ad infinitum, ad nauseum. No one knows except King George and he isn't talking.

Been there done that. What's the point of covering the same ground again, when there can be no new answers given, unless you or anyone else can get inside King Georges head to answer part B, or the sponsors' heads to address part A.

Now, before you accuse me of not wanting to talk about the business of racing, I do. But what I don't want to do is go back over the same tired questions that couldn't be answered then and can't be answered now.

Gary

come on gary...

big difference between expecting a low rating and expecting the lowest rating in the history of AOWR

[garyshell]

come on gary...

big difference between expecting a low rating and expecting the lowest rating in the history of AOWR


No question about that, and that was NOT my point. My point was we have already covered it multiple times and unless we can get a sponsor or two to come here and answer the question, I don't see the point of bringing it up again. But to be perfectly honest with you, I think the sponsors ARE smart enough to know that when the decision was made to go with Versus it WOULD mean the first few races WOULD get historically low ratings. But I have said that before.

Gary

[SarahFan]

sorry gary... we are just going to have to disagree here...

IMO asking whether the IRL can survive with not just low... but historically the lowest ratings in AOWR history for the first three rounds*.... is a legitimate question to ask a poster who spent the past decade tracking CC/CART ratings and acurately predicting its demise



*Indycool can confirm we have discussed the pre-indy races TV schedule and its corrolated ratings in relation to the I500 decline in ratings the past 5 or so seasons.....por lead-in has directly resulted in a decline in ratings.... will 2009 be different and break the trend.... time will tell

[SarahFan]

and what else i find frustrating gary...

is the constant reference to the '10 year commitment'...

I work in an industry that has one of the highest failure rates in the hostory of Biz...

and signing a ten year contract to lease a building happens all the time....


and what of Versus?.... heres a new channel commited to growth.... yet it appears .3 is about a regular rating for its higher profile sports....

how in world can a station expect to grow, much less stay in Biz with that type of ratings?..... what happens to the IRL if Vs goes out of Biz?

[beachbum]

No question about that, and that was NOT my point. My point was we have already covered it multiple times and unless we can get a sponsor or two to come here and answer the question, I don't see the point of bringing it up again. But to be perfectly honest with you, I think the sponsors ARE smart enough to know that when the decision was made to go with Versus it WOULD mean the first few races WOULD get historically low ratings. But I have said that before.

GaryI agree, the situation is about as good as can be expected. Not only does Versus not currently have the coverage as other channels, it probably isn't the channel that comes to mind when a casual fan wants to watch racing. Correcting both will take a lot of time to get the word around that Versus is a channel to watch for open wheel racing coverage. Grumbling about the obvious is just beating a dead horse. The sky is not falling, contrary to the bleating of some.

Now if a year from now the ratings are still at .3......................

[SarahFan]

The sky is not falling, contrary to the bleating of some.

Now if a year from now the ratings are still at .3......................

really?

not like there isn't a precedent here...

IC and I have been discussing TV ratings for over 8 years now.....not like I'm just coming from left field on this...

IC correctly predicted the demise of both CC and CART with dwindling Tv ratings being a significant factor in both

[NickFalzone]

This topic is definitely beating a dead horse. As a side note, Motegi last year and the year before got worse ratings than Kansas this year, and those were on ESPN2 (granted, late at night and/or tape delays). If you want to keep beating this horse's carcass go for it, but it seems like a waste of time if you ask me. Won't mean anything until IRL has established themselves on the VS network. As others have said, lets see where things are at going into Indy next season. If they're same or worse as now then there's reason to worry. AOWR and the IRL might be on its last legs, but this deal with VS could also have a big upside for the series... with time. We will see.

[beachbum]

Warning - Dead horse beating ahead.

TV Ratings and attendance figures have always been the focal points of numerous "discussions" on this forum and others. But are they the disease or the symptom? And what do they mean? Attendance and TV ratings are down significantly for NASCAR this year. Does than mean they are headed for oblivion? Hardly. The Kansas race was up against one of the biggest NASCAR races of the year - Talladega. Just what did anyone expect? Its like scheduling against the Super Bowl.

IHMO, CC and CART were both interesting series for the fans. But the business model was a disaster, with rotating drivers, no consistency in the schedule, poor TV coverage with different networks, and no real direction for growth. The symptoms of the disease were falling interest as reflected in the ratings. But the disease killed the patient, not the opposite.

The IRL still has the Big One - Indy - but had a choice to make. Keep accepting the poor coverage on the major networks or take a gamble to move to a smaller network with room to grow where the IRL was a featured product. Sure ratings would start out dismal, but the patient should be improving over time. Stating the old course may have produced slight different numbers, but that direction didn't have an up side.

The treatment may not improve the health of the patient, but it will take a lot more time than a couple races to see the direction. Improvement isn't going to happen overnight, or maybe even this year, but if the gamble is the right one, the upside is a lot more than staying on networks that focus on NASCAR and treat the IRL as a poor stepchild.

Now, can we talk about racing?

[SarahFan]

Now, can we talk about racing?

I hope your not suggesting i dont?

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132928

heres an entire thread devoted to discussing the next race..... not only with questions regarding the teams and drivers but directly soliciting more...

interesting that you haven't responded.... have you even looked?


and lets get this perfectly straight.... if your not interested in discussing the Biz side of the sport simply don't click on those threads that do.....is that really that hard?

I have directly solicited the response and opinions of a poster who for the better part of decade focus was on the biz aspect surrounding CART/CC and there demise.......schedule, Attendance and TV ratings factored heavily into discussion...

Go Sarah!

[Loneranger]

two part question..

A. do you think they expected the lowest ratings in the history of AOWR out of the gate for the first three races?

B. both CART and Champcar went out of biz with ratings even a bit better than the .3,.5 and .15 to open the season...... how long can the IRL stay in biz with ratings that low?.... or will Tony's comments of the IRL not having ever turned a profit just continue, with the IRL limping along financially funded from the IMS coffers?

Answer to A, yes I think they did expect the ratings to be super low. Did they sit in a board meeting and say we expect to see the lowest numbers ever? No, I don't think that comment was made, but I don't doubt for a second that every executive involved said that things will get worse before they get better. Sure they are probably disappointed in the early ratings, but I don't think anybody is put off or discouraged by them. I think they are looking at the results thus far all as part of a plan. Come talk to me in three years if they are still pulling the same numbers.

They are only 3 races in of about 180 races worth of coverage.

Answer to B, I think the IRL can stay in biz indefinitely regardless of the seasons TV numbers provided the 500, the Brickyard 400, and the Moto GP events are profitable enough to sustain the league. It's like was mentioned in the business journal article you posted. The season is essentially a lost leader to bring customers into the store that is the 500.

Now I have a question for you Frysauce! Question numero uno, why are TV numbers continually used as the pulse to measure the viability of the series? I say "viability" not to be confused with "popularity". Huge difference that I feel many on the boards confuse. Because if TV numbers were the only thing that ever mattered the NHL sure as hell would have died off a long long time ago. I get that TV numbers are a significant factor, I get that its a significant measure of things, but just because ratings are low, or the lowest ever does not mean insolvency. Chriist if that were the case I wouldn't be watching NHL playoffs right now.

Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?

[SarahFan]

Answer to A, yes I think they did expect the ratings to be super low. Did they sit in a board meeting and say we expect to see the lowest numbers ever? No, I don't think that comment was made, but I don't doubt for a second that every executive involved said that things will get worse before they get better. Sure they are probably disappointed in the early ratings, but I don't think anybody is put off or discouraged by them. I think they are looking at the results thus far all as part of a plan. Come talk to me in three years if they are still pulling the same numbers.

They are only 3 races in of about 180 races worth of coverage.

Answer to B, I think the IRL can stay in biz indefinitely regardless of the seasons TV numbers provided the 500, the Brickyard 400, and the Moto GP events are profitable enough to sustain the league. It's like was mentioned in the business journal article you posted. The season is essentially a lost leader to bring customers into the store that is the 500.

Now I have a question for you Frysauce! Question numero uno, why are TV numbers continually used as the pulse to measure the viability of the series? I say "viability" not to be confused with "popularity". Huge difference that I feel many on the boards confuse. Because if TV numbers were the only thing that ever mattered the NHL sure as hell would have died off a long long time ago. I get that TV numbers are a significant factor, I get that its a significant measure of things, but just because ratings are low, or the lowest ever does not mean insolvency. Chriist if that were the case I wouldn't be watching NHL playoffs right now.

Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?


were seeing exactly what i expected.... the lowest ratings ever

go back to your hideout and read my first posts on the subject

[Loneranger]

were seeing exactly what i expected.... the lowest ratings ever

And do you not think they will improve?


go back to your hideout and read my first posts on the subject

What? You're only calling out Indycool?

[DBell]

And do you not think they will improve?


I think they may improve and if they grow 2- 3 times what the average is so far, we'll be back to same level of sucky ratings we had on ESPN. Some have said they see this happening in 2 or 3 seasons. Great, 2 or 3 years to get back to where we were before. Then what? I don't see Versus delivering ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range. In a nut shell, I see what is now a niche sport going to a niche channel for 10 years, guaranteeing it stays a niche sport.

[Loneranger]

I think they may improve and if they grow 2- 3 times what the average is so far, we'll be back to same level of sucky ratings we had on ESPN. Some have said they see this happening in 2 or 3 seasons. Great, 2 or 3 years to get back to where we were before. Then what? I don't see Versus delivering ratings in the 2.0 to 3.0 range. In a nut shell, I see what is now a niche sport going to a niche channel for 10 years, guaranteeing it stays a niche sport.

Ahhh, somebody who is finally starting to make partial sense of this little endeavor....

If ratings for the regular season grow to anything halfway acceptable, say 1.5 or even a 2.0 and imagine a 3.0 best case, what do you think that will mean for the Indy 500 ratings? It means the 500 will bring in huge numbers and a 10.0 would not be unimaginable if regular season is averaging 3.0's.

I hardly think you can classify that as a niche sport. Give me a break.

[Loneranger]

I think they may improve

So if you think they "may improve" then you are more confident that they won't.

So why isn't the move to Versus a good thing then? And please don't use the same old weak argument that ESPN has a larger audience.

[SarahFan]

So if you think they "may improve" then you are more confident that they won't.

So why isn't the move to Versus a good thing then? And please don't use the same old weak argument that ESPN has a larger audience.

it's not only that Vs is in less homes.... its the fact that relatively no one is watching it period...

[SarahFan]

Ahhh, somebody who is finally starting to make partial sense of this little endeavor....

If ratings for the regular season grow to anything halfway acceptable, say 1.5 or even a 2.0 and imagine a 3.0 best case, what do you think that will mean for the Indy 500 ratings? It means the 500 will bring in huge numbers and a 10.0 would not be unimaginable if regular season is averaging 3.0's.

I hardly think you can classify that as a niche sport. Give me a break.

1.5?

it wont even average 1.0 even with the 500 .... much less just the Vs races

[Mark in Oshawa]

All I know is the NHL hasn't drawn flies on US TV for YEARS and it hasn't gone away and it hasn't changed my enjoyment of the sport. Now the IRL is on the same network as the NHL and is seeing the same issues.

No one is suprised the ratings suck, VS isn't on enough TV's to get them the numbers they would eventually want.

That said, the events are drawing good crowds, there are sponsors on the sidepods that people have heard of ( something we didn't see enough of in CCWS or CART's last years ) that are paying to be there and we have to be patient.

Ken was dumping on the whole idea after the first race. Nothing will be evaluated until a year is gone and I am sure at some point people will want more TV viewers but this year is about establishing the brand, the network and reaffirming that the IRL is now one series.

We can argue for DAYS how about how stupid it is we got to this position but it wont change the fact it is what it is and we have to go forward. I keep my opinions on what happened pretty much to myself. It is counterproductive. I don't see where the IRL is going now that is wrong. IT is what it is. The economy sucks and TV markets are fragmented. Lets wait until things start to pick up around racing....

[SarahFan]

And do you not think they will improve?

?

no... dont think they will.... nothing suggests they will either... certainly not a race in China

[SarahFan]

Answer to A, yes I think they did expect the ratings to be super low. Did they sit in a board meeting and say we expect to see the lowest numbers ever? No, I don't think that comment was made, but I don't doubt for a second that every executive involved said that things will get worse before they get better. Sure they are probably disappointed in the early ratings, but I don't think anybody is put off or discouraged by them. I think they are looking at the results thus far all as part of a plan. Come talk to me in three years if they are still pulling the same numbers.

They are only 3 races in of about 180 races worth of coverage.

Answer to B, I think the IRL can stay in biz indefinitely regardless of the seasons TV numbers provided the 500, the Brickyard 400, and the Moto GP events are profitable enough to sustain the league. It's like was mentioned in the business journal article you posted. The season is essentially a lost leader to bring customers into the store that is the 500.

Now I have a question for you Frysauce! Question numero uno, why are TV numbers continually used as the pulse to measure the viability of the series? I say "viability" not to be confused with "popularity". Huge difference that I feel many on the boards confuse. Because if TV numbers were the only thing that ever mattered the NHL sure as hell would have died off a long long time ago. I get that TV numbers are a significant factor, I get that its a significant measure of things, but just because ratings are low, or the lowest ever does not mean insolvency. Chriist if that were the case I wouldn't be watching NHL playoffs right now.

Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?

if not TV #'s then what else would you like to use?


the reason is that hockey teams have local broadcasting... its not like the IRL teams are competing 40times a year locally

and the lost bleader may work for Tg and the IRL's bottomline..... but what about the teams?.....

[Loneranger]

it's not only that Vs is in less homes.... its the fact that relatively no one is watching it period...

Nobody was watching ESPN either. Agreed?

So doesn't it become a case about what can be done to get more people watching? Would you not agree that is what needs to be done?

What is Versus' potential reach? I have no idea, I doubt you do either, but I think we would both agree that what ever that reach is right now very few people are watching, right?

[Loneranger]

And again I'll ask......Question numero two! I don't know how to say two in spanish. You are continually pessimistic about the Versus deal. What were you expecting to see happen this year as a result of the alliance with Versus?

[Loneranger]

and the lost bleader may work for Tg and the IRL's bottomline..... but what about the teams?.....

The teams? It comes down to the return that the sponsors are getting. Why do you think the league has worked to try and bring costs down? To make it less expensive for teams to run, requiring less dollars from sponsors. So as long as sponsors are satisfied with the return on their investment and provided those investments cover the costs to run a team then what concerns would a team have?

My bigger concern is not the survival of teams, teams will be around forever, it's a non issue, rich guys with lots of money will always find a way to put a car on the track. Penske can fire up the old autoclave in Poole and Ilmor can pump out however many engines they might need and at the very least they take a small block Chevy, breath on it a bit like the old hot rodders did, find a chassis to drop it into and go racing. The teams will always be there in one form or another.

What I am most concerned with is the ability to compete globally for the best talent to put behind the wheel. It's going to take more investment dollars from sponsors in order to do that and the only way to get those additional dollars, ie. charging more for space on a side pod, is to provide a better return on investment, that return is measured by greater exposure. The exposure will only come from an increased television audience. How is that going to happen? It's going to happen with a partner like Versus that is willing to help grow that audience, which in my opinion is exactly what they have been doing thus far. It's not going to happen over night, its not going to happen by race three, it certainly isn't going to happen by the end of year one. It's a long term project that will take many years to establish.

[Hoop-98]

were seeing exactly what i expected.... the lowest ratings ever

go back to your hideout and read my first posts on the subject

I kinda oughta know better Ken, but why do you refer to the Kansas rating as a historical low?

It certainly sucks, but there have been worse....in CCWS and IRL


rh

[SarahFan]

I kinda oughta know better Ken, but why do you refer to the Kansas rating as a historical low?

It certainly sucks, but there have been worse....in CCWS and IRL


rh



Not solely Kansas.......the first three races combined is the worst cumalitive opening 3 rounds

[Hoop-98]

Not solely Kansas.......the first three races combined is the worst cumalitive opening 3 rounds

Can you show us the data you made this new stat from?

I don't think that is a valid comparison.

jm2c
rh

[SarahFan]

Can you show us the data you made this new stat from?

I don't think that is a valid comparison.

jm2c
rh



Whats not valid?

Pick any other season ... Cart. Cc or irl

add the first yjrrs racestogether and the ratings total more than 0.95

[Hoop-98]

Whats not valid?

Pick any other season ... Cart. Cc or irl

add the first yjrrs racestogether and the ratings total more than 0.95

A. I don;t keep the first 3 races of a season TV ratings, but sure share them if you have them.

B. As I stated, in my opinion, this is not valid for many reasons in my opinion, you're reasonably smart and can probably figure out a few for yourself. Pre-framed arguments are kinda silly, IMHO, I learned how to do that on Compuserve with Mark C. 14 years ago.

C. I will exit this tar baby thing some of you seem to love and watch some racing...


ymmv

rh

[Loneranger]

you're reasonably smart and can probably figure out a few for yourself.

You give him far to much credit Hoop!

[SarahFan]

A. I don;t keep the first 3 races of a season TV ratings, but sure share them if you have them.

B. As I stated, in my opinion, this is not valid for many reasons in my opinion, you're reasonably smart and can probably figure out a few for yourself. Pre-framed arguments are kinda silly, IMHO, I learned how to do that on Compuserve with Mark C. 14 years ago.

C. I will exit this tar baby thing some of you seem to love and watch some racing...


ymmv

rh

it's either true or it's not

are you suggesting there has been a CART, CC or IRL season that saw ratings lower for it's first three races?


are you Loneranger?

[jarrambide]

You give him far to much credit Hoop!
I know Ken outside of the internet world, he is a smart guy.

I want IndyCar to succeed, but just as many others, I am dissapointed by what I´m seeing.

I was sure the end of one of the 2 series would end the us vs them attitude in which you had to defend the low ratings, poor attendance and blunders of your series.

Here we are, only one series,can we be sad about ratings?, can we be sad about attendance?

Knowing that ratings in Vs would suck doesn´t stop many of us from being worried and sad, we want to attend races without having to fly to Europe or to Asia, we want to watch live races not airing at 2 A.M. or 7 A.M., but some of us are tired from trying to see everything with rosed color glasses, I was tired from all the positive spin during CC´s last years, I wil support IndyCar, but I will not make excuses or spin what is happening.

[SarahFan]

, I wil support IndyCar, but I will not make excuses or spin what is happening.

that sums it up....

[Loneranger]

I know Ken outside of the internet world, he is a smart guy.

Does that mean you'll be in Indy with us?


I want IndyCar to succeed, but just as many others, I am dissapointed by what I´m seeing.

What are you disappointed in? Lay it out for me cause I only see a bunch of steps in the right direction. Problems are far from being solved as far as I am concerned, but for the first time in a really really long time I am encouraged with the direction "openwheel" racing is finally taking.


I was sure the end of one of the 2 series would end the us vs them attitude in which you had to defend the low ratings, poor attendance and blunders of your series.

Here we are, only one series,can we be sad about ratings?, can we be sad about attendance?

Knowing that ratings in Vs would suck doesn´t stop many of us from being worried and sad, we want to attend races without having to fly to Europe or to Asia, we want to watch live races not airing at 2 A.M. or 7 A.M., but some of us are tired from trying to see everything with rosed color glasses, I was tired from all the positive spin during CC´s last years, I wil support IndyCar, but I will not make excuses or spin what is happening.

Are you accusing me of spinning?

[jarrambide]

Can´t make it to Indy, last week(Friday) I was playing with my indoor soccer team (we play in a league here in Houston, Arsenal we call ourselves), I had a double clavicle fracture, my left hand will be immobilized fo 5 more weeks and hopefully the bones will fuse right and I will noy need surgery, typing with only one hand, staying in bed after work and weekends suck big time and my wife just informed me that I will never receive permission to be a keeper again, all I can say is thank you pain killers, one day I forgot to take the afternoon pill in time, bloody pain.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3376/3474341081_87f397ca08.jpg

[jarrambide]

(quote)What are you disappointed in? Lay it out for me cause I only see a bunch of steps in the right direction. Problems are far from being solved as far as I am concerned, but for the first time in a really really long time I am encouraged with the direction "openwheel" racing is finally taking.(quoye ends).

The actual state of OWR in the US, I am sure they are a bunch of real steps in the right direction but I have seen so many bad years that it saddens me to see the ratings, the attendance, the problems, seeing those numbers breaks my heart and makes me think it may be late to save OWR in the US, I can live with F1, I´m a huge F1 fan, I watch every race live, but I like attending races, I nees a series in tne US.

Can you see my point?, I can see those steps and at the same time be angry and complain about the actual state, even if I knew we would get those numbers this year.

(quote)Are you accusing me of spinning?(quote ends), not accusing, not saying you are being evil or trying to take over the world, but been there, done that for so many years, I am tired of trying to be super exrea ultra optimist, of trying to find the positive on everything, of making excuses.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Since this seems to be a Moddy's permission to dig into the past, what I believe you are saying Jose is OW may be too sick to survive in a form where it can attract top talent? That is what I am reading into it.

Unlike Ken/Sarah Fan, I choose not to see this TV deal as the end of the world, but I will admit I wish they had better ratings. That said, ESPN/ABC is bent on getting their NASCAR vehicles promoted and will pay only some lip service from now on to their Indy Car coverage. That sucks. The fact no other US networks want to step up outside of VS sucks.

Hell, it all sucks. That said, we cant live in the past. What has been done is done. I don't see what the IRL could have done differently in the last year. That isn't spin boys, that is just the reality. They went out and got the best deal they could. They are not surprised at the low numbers, because VS has a low household reach. As long as they draw AT the track, and the Indy 500 numbers keep advertisers on the teams as sponsors, then we can go somewhere. It is going to be a rough couple of years. NASCAR is the 800 lb gorilla of motorsport in America now, and the CART/IRL war of 1995 was the reason why this gorilla got such a lead. If OW racing as we know it dies, I wont be heartbroken, I can go do something else. I watch more NASCAR now myself, and I love my sportscar racing.

What bothers me tho is those who keep bouncing up and down on this topic WEEK AFTER WEEK as if someone was spinning this as good news. No one that I can tell is really doing that. VS is putting out a pretty good TV product that many are not watching. Maybe that is our fate, but I don't see this one as Tony's malfesence or stupidity. THAT was 14 years ago my friends.....that ship sailed.....

[jarrambide]

I do think is to sick, I thought it was to sick the last 2 CC seasons, that is why it breaks my heart to see the numbers, as I said, I´m not seeing any errors or mistakes this year, I knew how ratings would look like, but i Can´t se those numbers without thinking it is late for us, but I may be wrong, I´m not an expert or a seer, que será, será.

[garyshell]

I´m not an expert or a seer, que será, será.

I think the proper use for that phrase is now que Sarah, Sarah. Right Ken?

Gary

[Loneranger]

Can´t make it to Indy, last week(Friday) I was playing with my indoor soccer team (we play in a league here in Houston, Arsenal we call ourselves), I had a double clavicle fracture, my left hand will be immobilized fo 5 more weeks and hopefully the bones will fuse right and I will noy need surgery, typing with only one hand, staying in bed after work and weekends suck big time and my wife just informed me that I will never receive permission to be a keeper again, all I can say is thank you pain killers, one day I forgot to take the afternoon pill in time, bloody pain.

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3376/3474341081_87f397ca08.jpg

Outch! Hope you feel better soon.

[Loneranger]

The actual state of OWR in the US, I am sure they are a bunch of real steps in the right direction but I have seen so many bad years that it saddens me to see the ratings, the attendance, the problems, seeing those numbers breaks my heart and makes me think it may be late to save OWR in the US, I can live with F1, I´m a huge F1 fan, I watch every race live, but I like attending races, I nees a series in tne US.

Can you see my point?, I can see those steps and at the same time be angry and complain about the actual state, even if I knew we would get those numbers this year.

No I don't see your point. I don't think its fair to accuse the "state" of openwheel for limiting your positive judgments of the series.


not accusing, not saying you are being evil or trying to take over the world, but been there, done that for so many years, I am tired of trying to be super exrea ultra optimist, of trying to find the positive on everything, of making excuses.

I've been around these boards as long as anybody and have been called just about everything. The last thing I would consider myself is an optimist. I call a spade a spade. There is plenty wrong with the IRL and I am not afraid to point out that long shopping list. But like I said a few posts back, for the first time in a very very long time I see some positive steps being made in the right direction for a change. The IRL and Champ Car/CART have bungled so much up over the last few years that its refreshing to finally see some changes that I feel will be made for the good. I hardly think that is being an "optimist" or wearing rose colored glasses.

[Loneranger]

Since this seems to be a Moddy's permission to dig into the past, what I believe you are saying Jose is OW may be too sick to survive in a form where it can attract top talent? That is what I am reading into it.

Unlike Ken/Sarah Fan, I choose not to see this TV deal as the end of the world, but I will admit I wish they had better ratings. That said, ESPN/ABC is bent on getting their NASCAR vehicles promoted and will pay only some lip service from now on to their Indy Car coverage. That sucks. The fact no other US networks want to step up outside of VS sucks.

Hell, it all sucks. That said, we cant live in the past. What has been done is done. I don't see what the IRL could have done differently in the last year. That isn't spin boys, that is just the reality. They went out and got the best deal they could. They are not surprised at the low numbers, because VS has a low household reach. As long as they draw AT the track, and the Indy 500 numbers keep advertisers on the teams as sponsors, then we can go somewhere. It is going to be a rough couple of years. NASCAR is the 800 lb gorilla of motorsport in America now, and the CART/IRL war of 1995 was the reason why this gorilla got such a lead. If OW racing as we know it dies, I wont be heartbroken, I can go do something else. I watch more NASCAR now myself, and I love my sportscar racing.

What bothers me tho is those who keep bouncing up and down on this topic WEEK AFTER WEEK as if someone was spinning this as good news. No one that I can tell is really doing that. VS is putting out a pretty good TV product that many are not watching. Maybe that is our fate, but I don't see this one as Tony's malfesence or stupidity. THAT was 14 years ago my friends.....that ship sailed.....

We seem to be on the same page Mark. What is more encouraging for me besides the quality of the broadcast and the fact Scott Goodyear is gone, is that Versus is actually making a full blown attempt to promote the series and work towards increasing the viewership. That is something I have been waiting for, wishing for and hoping for, for the last, well, since the split, and finally their is a broadcaster that seems to be truly working as a "partner". That is the part that I think Ken doesn't get or chooses to ignore, or thinks that there are only 10 people watching the network so it doesn't matter anyway.

[Loneranger]

I do think is to sick, I thought it was to sick the last 2 CC seasons, that is why it breaks my heart to see the numbers, as I said, I´m not seeing any errors or mistakes this year, I knew how ratings would look like, but i Can´t se those numbers without thinking it is late for us, but I may be wrong, I´m not an expert or a seer, que será, será.

How can you even begin to think its to late? That is just nonsense.

[jarrambide]

How can you even begin to think its to late? That is just nonsense.
Because I remember CART in their glory days, and I remember CART last seasons and I remember the split years and the awfuk state of CC and the IRL and I see the state of IndyCar and the state of our economy and I just can´t keep thinking that the next yeat will be the year that will make the difference.

[Loneranger]

Because I remember CART in their glory days, and I remember CART last seasons and I remember the split years and the awfuk state of CC and the IRL and I see the state of IndyCar and the state of our economy and I just can´t keep thinking that the next yeat will be the year that will make the difference.

Who said anything about the next year making the difference?

[jarrambide]

Who said anything about the next year making the difference?
Me, I have been saying it for 6 years, and pretty much every new year has been worst than the previous one, I just don´t see how to improve this with Versus, I do get how ESPN was doing nothing for us, but because I see that our 2 options are delivering a crappy production to everyone with cable or delivering a good production to a fraction of cable users in a channel with historically low ratings is why I think it is late, lets hope I´m wrong.

[Loneranger]

Me, I have been saying it for 6 years, and pretty much every new year has been worst than the previous one, I just don´t see how to improve this with Versus, I do get how ESPN was doing nothing for us, but because I see that our 2 options are delivering a crappy production to everyone with cable or delivering a good production to a fraction of cable users in a channel with historically low ratings is why I think it is late, lets hope I´m wrong.

Here is where guys like you and Ken drive me crazy with your logic.

What's better? To have a pool of a million potential viewers and a broadcaster who isn't willing to try and attract any. Or a pool of 225,000 viewers and a broadcaster who is willing to try and attract as many of them as possible.

Is a 1.0 not a 1.0 regardless of what network it is achieved on? Who says Versus is not capable of attracting a large audience? Apparently Ken says so.

[SarahFan]

.15

[indycool]

It is a time of rebuilding after a long teardown. NASCAR did not blossom overnight. This isn't going to do so, either.

[DBell]

(quote)What are you disappointed in? Lay it out for me cause I only see a bunch of steps in the right direction. Problems are far from being solved as far as I am concerned, but for the first time in a really really long time I am encouraged with the direction "openwheel" racing is finally taking.(quoye ends).

The actual state of OWR in the US, I am sure they are a bunch of real steps in the right direction but I have seen so many bad years that it saddens me to see the ratings, the attendance, the problems, seeing those numbers breaks my heart and makes me think it may be late to save OWR in the US, I can live with F1, I´m a huge F1 fan, I watch every race live, but I like attending races, I nees a series in tne US.

Can you see my point?, I can see those steps and at the same time be angry and complain about the actual state, even if I knew we would get those numbers this year.

I see your point very well because it sums up how I've come to feel. From my point of view, very well stated.

[jarrambide]

Here is where guys like you and Ken drive me crazy with your logic.

What's better? To have a pool of a million potential viewers and a broadcaster who isn't willing to try and attract any. Or a pool of 225,000 viewers and a broadcaster who is willing to try and attract as many of them as possible.

Is a 1.0 not a 1.0 regardless of what network it is achieved on? Who says Versus is not capable of attracting a large audience? Apparently Ken says so.
That is exactly what breaks my heart, that is exactly what tells me AOWR is in such a bad state, both options are not what we need, as I said, since we have only 2 options, Vs is the one I would choose, but that doesn´t make it the better option, it makes it less bad than ESPN.

Imagine you have a horrible infection in your left leg, and the doctor tells you because you waited so long to do something, you only have 2 options, to cut your leg below the knee or to die from gangrene, amputation will be the right decision always, but that doesn´t make a good thing, a happy thing, it is not the best option, but the one you have to take under the circumstances.

As I said 5 or 6 times already, I don´t see any bad decisions or mistakes this year, I don´t think I would want things done differently, but that doesn´t mean I have to like what AOWR looks right now.

[jarrambide]

It is a time of rebuilding after a long teardown. NASCAR did not blossom overnight. This isn't going to do so, either.

But you understand that because of that it is OK to complain about the actual state, there is no split now, we can look at reality and dislike the numbers and hope for the best, but we can and we should dislike the present, this is not what the fans, the teams, the drivers or TG wants, we all dislike the current state.

We get this is a reconstruction time, but because there is no other series, this time we as fans can look at the state and see all the wrong things without making excuses or thinking everything will change magically, how many here predicted that CC was about to turn the tide?, what happened to CC?, how many here believed that with the end of CC IRL would instantly grow their ratings and attendance, how are those numbers looking after more than a year with only one series?

I understand Ken, he is not doing it out of bitterness, he was doing it with CC and he was a big CC fan, but that didn´t stop him from disliking the things he was sure would destroy CC.

[SarahFan]

05/01/09 Rumor has it that Laura George, IMS Staff Advisor and wife of Tony George, got fired this week from the Indianapolis Motor Speedway by Tony George's sisters - Kathi George, Nancy George and Josephine (Josie) George. They along with Tony own the Speedway.
From what we hear she cleaned out her office. Do you sense a family feud brewing?

We also hear they may have hired a new Chief Financial Officer to advise on key financial matters.



^IC... either of those 2 rumors hold water?

[SarahFan]

Ahhh, somebody who is finally starting to make partial sense of this little endeavor....

If ratings for the regular season grow to anything halfway acceptable, say 1.5 or even a 2.0 and imagine a 3.0 best case, what do you think that will mean for the Indy 500 ratings? It means the 500 will bring in huge numbers and a 10.0 would not be unimaginable if regular season is averaging 3.0's.

I hardly think you can classify that as a niche sport. Give me a break.


man-O-live... it sounds like your trying to sell me a used car or somethin...

lets not forget I told you from the beginning of 06' that CC was toast.... you disagreed to the point of making a significant financial investment in regards to its future.....

how's the name change/branding coming along!?

[DBell]

Ahhh, somebody who is finally starting to make partial sense of this little endeavor....

If ratings for the regular season grow to anything halfway acceptable, say 1.5 or even a 2.0 and imagine a 3.0 best case, what do you think that will mean for the Indy 500 ratings? It means the 500 will bring in huge numbers and a 10.0 would not be unimaginable if regular season is averaging 3.0's.

I hardly think you can classify that as a niche sport. Give me a break.



IF all that happened, then no I wouldn't call it a niche sport either. But were so far from those numbers that you can't see them from here with the Hubble telescope. My pessimism is that Versus will never deliver anything close to these numbers. My fear is that it's too late for OW in the US to recover to the level you mentioned. Too many self inflicted wounds and missed opportunities and just too many wasted years gone by to be at that level again.

[Hoop-98]

grant me the strength to change what I can, the patience to accept what I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference...

[jarrambide]

grant me the strength to change what I can, the patience to accept what I cannot, and the wisdom to know the difference...Hello, my name is José Arrambide and I´m a OWR fan.

[Hoop-98]

Hello, my name is José Arrambide and I´m a OWR fan.

So you go to RFA meetings ;)

[jarrambide]

So you go to RFA meetings ;)

No, I´m in denial right now, I can control my racing habits, I can quit anytime, I just don´t want to quit now. :)

[Loneranger]

man-O-live... it sounds like your trying to sell me a used car or somethin...

lets not forget I told you from the beginning of 06' that CC was toast.... you disagreed to the point of making a significant financial investment in regards to its future.....

how's the name change/branding coming along!?

Bite me. :D

[Loneranger]

IF all that happened, then no I wouldn't call it a niche sport either. But were so far from those numbers that you can't see them from here with the Hubble telescope. My pessimism is that Versus will never deliver anything close to these numbers. My fear is that it's too late for OW in the US to recover to the level you mentioned. Too many self inflicted wounds and missed opportunities and just too many wasted years gone by to be at that level again.

As long as their is an interest its never to late.

Are you trying to say that you think America is no longer interested in openwheel racing?

[DBell]

As long as their is an interest its never to late.

Are you trying to say that you think America is no longer interested in openwheel racing?

It doesn't seem that way. How many new, young fans do you think OW gained over the last decade? Not many, I'd say.

[indycool]

Sarahfan, I don't run anywhere near those circles and have no idea.

[Easy Drifter]

To me it was clear that the ABC/ESPN coverage was going nowhere and what is left of it still isn't. Yes the 500 gets hyped but that is all.
Versus is not the greatest but they are pushing the races from what I hear and producing a better product. The big hope is Versus will grow and carry IRL with it. Maybe or maybe not but ABC/ESPN seemed to be a dead end street. So that can be seen as a positive.
Up here in the boonies we are stuck with TSN who couldn't really care less about racing. They usually show the races on a tape delay at 3 or 3.30 in the morning. Some are on TSN2 which I do not get and Rogers cable won't even carry. That really hypes the ratings and interest. I have Bell satellite but unless I get HD and/or pay more do not get TSN2.
This year they are forcing the blackout of Speed's coverage of F1. Practice which TSN does not cover is blacked out. TSN does not have the BBC pre race show but Speed's coverage is blacked out. Speed's repeats, even days later are blacked out.
Yes I complained to TSN. I did not even get an acknowledgement let alone a response.

[Hoop-98]

So the alternatives were....


A.
B.
C.
....

rh

[bblocker68]

Ken, change your name back before we see a MilkaFan coming around the corner :)

[garyshell]

.


Ken, change your name back before we see a MilkaFan coming around the corner :)


Sorry Barry, but you are much too late! ...big ol' grin...

Gary

[SarahFan]

Ken, change your name back before we see a MilkaFan coming around the corner :)

i will on the 26th...

[NickFalzone]

I'll be lurking around the corner with a toxic water bottle to throw in Sarahfan's face, you watch out honey.

[nigelred5]

I'm pleased that the VS coverage is vastly improved over the ESPN production since that's all we have to watch now. Despite the mythbusters proof that you CAN in fact, polish a turd, I just don't see that enough people see the attraction of a shiny turd for this thing to rebound. The racing simply needs brand competetion. My guy beat your guy only goes so far. Without Automobile brand competition, racing just doesn't have much commercial relevance. Who cares if a guy in a Honda beat..... a guy in a Honda?
Imagine NASCAR with a field full of Toyotas. No ford, no chevy, no dodge. By year 5, no one would care. I had a great time at the Grand Am race this weekend. 5 hours in my hurricane gear, walking around the track in the pouring rain, cheering on the porsches, fords, pontiacs, mazdas, chevys. I wouldn't leave my living room to watch the IRL right now, and that's unfortunate to say. I've got such a jones for attending a good open wheel race it's sickening.

The series is making some strides towards one more to my liking, however the delay in the new formula is crushing any positives IMHO. SPEC racing doesn't work for anyone but the hardcore race fan, and even that is borderline. It's good for the drivers, but not so appealing for anyone else. I think NASCAR has been tanking since the introduction of the COT, essentially spec racing. Champcar tanked it. I've simply never seen ANY spec series having any sort of significant lasting appeal.

[bblocker68]

Sorry Barry, but you are much too late! ...big ol' grin...

Gary

DOH!! (head slap)

[garyshell]

I had a great time at the Grand Am race this weekend. 5 hours in my hurricane gear, walking around the track in the pouring rain, cheering on the porsches, fords, pontiacs, mazdas, chevys.


Wow, in the 42 years that I have been regularly attending motorsports events. I can count on one finger the number of times I have said (or heard anyone else say) "Go, Mazda", "Go, Pontiac", "Go, Alfa", "Go, Porsche". Now I have heard hundreds, if not thousands, of times myself and others yell "Go, Alessandro", "Go, Mario", "Go, Emmo", "Go, Al", "Go, Paul", "Go, Nigel".

While I do think that manufactures do bring certain intangibles to the sport in the eyes of the fans, I think you grossly over estimate the importance. I think racing even to the casual fan is and always has been about the warrior not the chariot. The decline we both abhor, is not because of the chariots; only the hard core race fan is interested in the chariot. The decline is because of the lack of visibility of the warrior. Back in the day, everyone in the USA knew who Mario or AJ were. Lots of folks even knew of that "furiner" Emmo.

Gary

Wow, in the 42 years that I have been regularly attending motorsports events. I can count on one finger the number of times I have said (or heard anyone else say) "Go, Mazda", "Go, Pontiac", "Go, Alfa", "Go, Porsche". Now I have heard hundreds, if not thousands, of times myself and others yell "Go, Alessandro", "Go, Mario", "Go, Emmo", "Go, Al", "Go, Paul", "Go, Nigel".

Gary, you ought to try Monza in September.

Although, admittedly, it is only one manufacturer they cheer for.

[SarahFan]

This thread was awesome ....

Jan, Jody & Jose where you?

[garyshell]

I skype with Jose on occasion. He is still in Texas teaching school. And looking forward to the F1 race in Austin.

Gary

[Chris R]

I know who Jose is/was but who are Jody and Jan (Loneranger and Indycool??) We have lost some good posters in the last year......

[indycool]

Developed an illness five years ago that occasionally flares up and was in the hospital for four months earlier this year, so have kinda been offline of late and just gettin' back a little.

Interesting season, though. Wild finish at Indy....Franchitti and Power don't seem to like each other much.....Mario adamantly feels the leader oughta be able to defend his position and new rules on blocking don't quite allow that....police "pit maneuvers" seem more common on the narrow road and street courses......lot of goin's on goin' on. :)

Best to everyone......

IC

[garyshell]

Developed an illness five years ago that occasionally flares up and was in the hospital for four months earlier this year, so have kinda been offline of late and just gettin' back a little.

Interesting season, though. Wild finish at Indy....Franchitti and Power don't seem to like each other much.....Mario adamantly feels the leader oughta be able to defend his position and new rules on blocking don't quite allow that....police "pit maneuvers" seem more common on the narrow road and street courses......lot of goin's on goin' on. :)

Best to everyone......

IC

He's back!!! Glad to hear you are on the mend.

It's funny that you resurface on the same day that I just spoke with Jose. We were talking about the move of the F1 race to November and my plans to go to visit Austin with him next fall!

Welcome back.

Gary

[jarrambide]

Hello, hello, hello, Mr. Shell (nice gas stations by the way Gary) told me you guys had an AWOL topic, I'm doing great, but teaching takes a lot of time, not to mention that you don't get to use a computer like a regular job.

[SarahFan]

Cabrito at Tio's sounds pretty tasty right about now!


Now we just need Jody to make an appearance

[indycool]

Thanx, Gary.......hope to participate more now..........

[jarrambide]

Cabrito at Tio's sounds pretty tasty right about now!


Now we just need Jody to make an appearance

We went back to Monterrey last month and I had to go to Tio's, I brought coffee to make "cafe de olla"

IC, man, good to see you.

[SarahFan]

Where's tiowoody?

[Loneranger]

For old times sake.

[jarrambide]

Where's tiowoody?

California, when not travelling around the world with his family.

[SarahFan]

Yo Jody.... Did you see NBC... Er I mean versus ... Just signed MLS....


I will say that soccer and OW racing does have sOme cross over fans... That shod push ratings up to about .6

[Loneranger]

Yo Jody.... Did you see NBC... Er I mean versus ... Just signed MLS....


I will say that soccer and OW racing does have sOme cross over fans... That shod push ratings up to about .6

I heard MLS was going to design a new soccer ball to bring new fans to the seats. Instead of being a patchwork of material its going to be made of one solid piece of leather. It's still going to feel the same when you kick it, and react the same and it won't affect the game but it's going to be new and cool and fans are going to pack stadiums to see it.

[SarahFan]

I don't care who you are.... That^is funny!

Go REAL

[Chris R]

you know, when you put it that way, it sort of puts the whole thing in perspective :p :

[ykiki]

...but my kid will want the ball because "they" said it was new! :p

[Jag_Warrior]

Has anyone heard from Easy Drifter? I was going to pose the question in Chit Chat, but he mainly posted in this forum. I can't recall seeing him at all this year. Anyone???

[Mark in Oshawa]

Glad to see IC and Jose back.....

As for Easy Drifter...I have a sneaking suspicion health issues may have taken him from the forum.....I am going to do some looking and maybe check the obit's for his home town. He is in his 70's and was suffering from some ailments to say the least.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Ok did an Obit search. Drifter's real name didn't pop up. Whew...he is still with us...so either he is away from the computer or his computer ganked. His last post on the "The Garage Blog" was October of last year, but I know he was posting on here in the winter...so I am now curious to see what what happened to the cantankerous Canadian!

[DBell]

Glad to see IC and Jose back.....

As for Easy Drifter...I have a sneaking suspicion health issues may have taken him from the forum.....I am going to do some looking and maybe check the obit's for his home town. He is in his 70's and was suffering from some ailments to say the least.

I noticed ED hadn't been around earlier this summer and checked his profile. He mentioned having a 5 week flu in a post on 1/3. I really hope all is well with ED. I hope you find good news Mark.

[jarrambide]

Glad to see IC and Jose back.....

As for Easy Drifter...I have a sneaking suspicion health issues may have taken him from the forum.....I am going to do some looking and maybe check the obit's for his home town. He is in his 70's and was suffering from some ailments to say the least.

My Canadian ultaconservative friend, you still owe me a ride on your 18 wheeler,when are you coming to Texas?

[Mark in Oshawa]

My Canadian ultaconservative friend, you still owe me a ride on your 18 wheeler,when are you coming to Texas?

I am not an ultraconservative...but I can fake it on occasion!! I am a small C conservative.... as for the 18 Wheeler ride, not getting to Texas now. I gave up the long haul stuff a year and a half ago. My boss wanted to send me to Edmonton Alberta 6 days before Christmas. Since that is a 7 day round trip with good weather, and he wasn't offering me anything extra for going out over Christmas, I told him to kiss my @ss!!! So I wont get to Texas sir....at least not with a big rig.

[jarrambide]

Anyone knows how Jan is doing these days?

[Starter]

Anyone knows how Jan is doing these days?
I haven't heard anything from him in a while. Shoot him a PM and see what's up.

[indycool]

There seems to be so much happening -- or not happening -- I can't keep track of it all. Sorry I've been off the air for awhile....seems like I'm going to doctors all the time. Well, my take: I don't think it helps Indycar and Versus/NBC Sports for the NHL to have a spat if they're trying to make a big move to grow the network, i.e., Indycar and others' ratings. The schedule? Think the doubleheaders are a bit screwy but the Triple Crown is back and should draw attention. Call that one a plus. Bernard? Nice guy but knew little about the sport or WHERE to go outside the box to grow it. Have no idea who'll get the job or who SHOULD get the job, but after Mark Miles and Jeff Belskus decide on someone, that person is going to be the one to do it....people don't cross the street much between the IRL and IMS offices and both Miles and Belskus are Hulman & Co. and IMS, respectively. Seems like there should be plenty of race cars because it's not nearly as droopy around Indy with crewmen being laid off for the winter, etc., as it's been in past years. With 19 races, it could be a good season. 'Bout all from here. Hey, Starter, I KNOW the Smokey Stover who played linebacker for the 1964 Kansas City Chiefs and HE didn't talk like that! :)

[Starter]

Hey, Starter, I KNOW the Smokey Stover who played linebacker for the 1964 Kansas City Chiefs and HE didn't talk like that! :)
Wrong Smokey Stover. Try the comic strip from the 40's & 50's. ;)

[indycool]

Oh, okay....you're way ahead of me there! :)

[Jag_Warrior]

Good to see you back online, Jan. While I was browsing another racing site I saw a "SamC". I wasn't registered so I couldn't say hello to him. But I assume it was the same SamC that I used to spar with way back when. I hope he is well. These days, I feel like us "old timers" are sort of like old Civil War soldiers who are still hanging around the VFW hall. Only in our case, both sides wound up losing. Oh well... I hope you're well. Please say hello for me to any others from days gone by that you bump into.

[indycool]

Thanx, Jag, and same to you....I get and feel your reference to old soldiers hanging around the VFW Hall. There are some who now have that conflict permanently in their DNA and others just moving right along. Funny that way. The quote at the bottom of your post says it all...Davy Crockett could build the best log cabin east of the Mississippi but the word computer wasn't even around till 75 years or so later. It'll be that way with Indycarracing. Will definitely say hello for you amongst the clan in Indy. Best......

[garyshell]

Well, knock me over with a feather. Look who's back. Good to see you here again Jan. Don't be a stranger, ok?

Gary

[indycool]

Thanx, Gary....good to be here....will try to "stay aboard."

[jarrambide]

The one and only IC, good to see(actually read) you are doing well.

[indycool]

Thanx, Jose....with this thread, I feel like I'm back at home online.