McLaren get suspended ban

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren has been given a three-race ban, suspended for 12 months, after admitting to all five charges at today's extraordinary meeting of the FIA World Motor Sport Council.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74937

[BeansBeansBeans]

It translates as: We’ve got what we wanted. Ron Dennis has gone. Therefore we're not going to punish McLaren.

[AJP]

It translates as: We’ve got what we wanted. Ron Dennis has gone. Therefore we're not going to punish McLaren.

Pretty much..

Now that Dennis has gone, will this effect Lewis?

I think it will. I think that Lewis is going to struggle for quite some time to regain a sense of place in this team. He may well leave after this season is done, even if McLaren get the car back on the pace.

[F1boat]

Nice decision. FIA has made two right decisions in a row. That's spectacular.

[Mark]

Sounds about right to me. Although I'm surprised there wasn't a financial penalty in there.

[I am evil Homer]

Yep I was expecting something like this plus a fine.

[CNR]

not happy

[pino]

I am very disappointed about it, so it doesn't matter if you're trying to cheat as long as you say sorry when/if they catch you, what a joke :down:

[ShiftingGears]

I am very disappointed about it, so it doesn't matter if you're trying to cheat as long as you say sorry when/if they catch you, what a joke :down:

Well, on the positive side, if they try any funny stuff again they will get banned.

[pino]

Well, on the positive side, if they try any funny stuff again they will get banned.

Come on let's be serious, they've cheated, they deserve a proper punishment not a 2nd chance !

[Ranger]

They tried to cheat and got disqualified from the race.

Justfiably so.

Although I was expecting a financial sanction.

[Garry Walker]

Heres a lesson kids, you can cheat and lie and get away with it.

[Ghostwalker]

what a disgrace they got away with it. this apparently means that you can cheat as much as you want and get away with it. Wonder if a smaller team would have got such a mild sentence? quite certainly not.

[CNR]

i would be happy with the three-race ban, suspended for a 1st time but when you have spygate just 2 years ago.

who has the emails ?

[Sonic]

Heres a lesson kids, you can cheat and lie and get away with it.

Quite. Whilst I'm pleased that McLaren appologised and accepted that they did wrong it should not reduce their punishment IMO.

A race(s) ban and a fine should have followed.

[I am evil Homer]

Also can't help buty feel that if McLaren had won all the GP's this year the outcome would have been very different.

As for "getting away with it" - they lost the points from the race anyway so perhaps the FIA felt that was enough.

[ArrowsFA1]

I was certainly expecting a race ban/financial penalty of some sorts so am somewhat surprised at the suspended penalty, but I don't think this was ever really about what happened in Australia.

With Ron Dennis gone, and McLaren being seen to apologise to the FIA (via the leaked letter (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74748)) before the hearing, it seems that McLaren have done what was required of them for a line to be drawn in the sand.

[I am evil Homer]

Also notice however that the FIA has now made it clear to McLaren that the ball if firmly in their court with the "any other evidence comes to light", ie, okay we accept what you say and take it at face value however if we then find something else regarding the Oz GP you're banned for 3 races - no ifs, no buts, no appeals.

Further, you do anything like this in the next couple of years and it's an automatic 3-race ban

While on the surface it may look leniant, in fact, the FIA has been very clever IMO and left McLaren with no room for errors.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74938

"The decision to suspend the penalty was made because of the team's conduct in addressing the cultural problems that led then-sporting director Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton to mislead the stewards over whether he had let Toyota's Jarno Trulli past under safety car conditions in Australia."

Funny....some people didn't believe that there was such a 'culture'......yet now Mclaren themselves have admitted there was.

""Having regard to the open and honest way in which McLaren Team Principal, Mr Martin Whitmarsh, addressed the WMSC and the change in culture which he made clear has taken place in his organisation"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74937

[Daniel]

Disgraceful decision. The penalty should apply NOW

I think the previous conversations on here were debating whether there was a supposed 'Lying Culture'. This article doesn't actually say what type of culture he is talking about.

Well, it sure as hell wasn't an honest culture, so you nit-pick fine details all you like, as I'm no doubt other apologistas will, it doesn't matter....a culture that allowed team members to lie and decieve existed...full stop....as confirmed by the Team Principal.

Those who claimed otherwise have been shown to be wrong.

[K-Pu]

Well, I also think McLaren should have been penalised.

Weren´t they supposed to be watched by the FIA after Spygate? This is a nice start.
And as far as I know it´s clear enough they cheated/broke the rules/did something they shouldn´t have done.
And now they declare something about "that culture". OK, I´d should have that kind of culture when I´m at work. Or even better, when I´m not at work and I tell my boss I can´t go there because I´m not feelling alright. Then my boss realizes I´m lying, but I don´t have to worry at all! My culture protects me! And the boss knows! Wohoooo!

In the end it happened what I said some time before: NOTHING. They wouldn´t do anything, McLaren would not be penalised (Nurburgring 2007 comes to mind, ahem...) and there´s nothing more than a warning. I also want to be warned again and again and not penalised, seems quite easy to cope with!

I might be wrong but I don't feel wrong, its a strange feeling I tell thee.

That's homosexual love for you, but has nothing to do with the topic.

[MrJan]

Disgraceful decision. The penalty should apply NOW

Hurts them more in a year I rekcon. This year they have a poor car and are already well behind in the championship, by next year they will have developed and could be back at the front.

As for those calling for a ban, well F1 is going to have a tough time with the economy as it is, the last thing that the FIA want to do is kick out a team and risk alienating a large part of the British market.

There again could it be called into question Mr Whitmarsh's statement?? I also seem to remember certain people on here calling him a liar, so could it be considered that he may be lying in this instance? Perhaps there wasn't a culture at all? ;)

So, by lying now, it would be proof that there wasn't a culture of lies?

You are taking the piss, right?

[N. Jones]

I'm glad this is settled so we can get back to racing. (A fair punishment, no complaints here).

Right, its probably best to leave peoples sexual origins out of it mate as this may offend people on this forum. I don't mind debating a topic, but when it gets to the stage that someone doesn't have a constructive enough response, it might be time to call it a day....

It was a fecking joke, so lighten up.

"They [McLaren] have demonstrated there is a complete culture change, that it's all different to what it was," he said. "In those circumstances it looks better to put the whole thing behind us, so unless there is something similar in the future, that is the end of the matter."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6191382.ece

So much for the FIA having a vendetta, or this being a witch-hunt, or any other of the bollocks said in defence of the indefensible.

[I am evil Homer]

It was a fecking joke, so lighten up.

Usually jokes are funny rather than offensive though. And as you said had nothing to do with the topic so also became pointless.

[ArrowsFA1]

"They (McLaren) have demonstrated there is a complete culture change, that it's all different to what it was. In those circumstances it looks better to put the whole thing behind us..."
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8024661.stm

In other words, Ron has gone. Job done :p

Usually jokes are funny rather than offensive though.

Believe me, that wasn't me being offensive.

You'd know if I was....ain't that right, Knockie?!

[tintop]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74938

"The decision to suspend the penalty was made because of the team's conduct in addressing the cultural problems that led then-sporting director Dave Ryan and Lewis Hamilton to mislead the stewards over whether he had let Toyota's Jarno Trulli past under safety car conditions in Australia."

Funny....some people didn't believe that there was such a 'culture'......yet now Mclaren themselves have admitted there was.

""Having regard to the open and honest way in which McLaren Team Principal, Mr Martin Whitmarsh, addressed the WMSC and the change in culture which he made clear has taken place in his organisation"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74937


I think that Mclaren were smart enough to offer the FIA enough blood and contrition to satisfy the council that they were humbled. Not sure how pervasive the implied culture of deceit is beyond the principals and Hamilton (of course), but it was certainly the right thing to say.

RD is gone, let's go racing again, the season is fun enough this year w/o the crap!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8024661.stm

In other words, Ron has gone. Job done :p

Ron did the job all on his own, though.....which must make it even sweeter for Max to be proven to have been right about the slimy fecker!

[Knock-on]

"They [McLaren] have demonstrated there is a complete culture change, that it's all different to what it was," he said. "In those circumstances it looks better to put the whole thing behind us, so unless there is something similar in the future, that is the end of the matter."

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article6191382.ece

So much for the FIA having a vendetta, or this being a witch-hunt, or any other of the bollocks said in defence of the indefensible.

Do you think that this decision would have been the same if Ron was still at the helm ;)

I think this was a just and fair decision. It puts the episode to bed and ensures that there is no repeat.

Do you think that this decision would have been the same if Ron was still at the helm ;)

No, because there wasn't a hope in hell of him ever apologising or doing anything to change the culture.

He made the culture, after all.

I think this was a just and fair decision. It puts the episode to bed and ensures that there is no repeat.

Given the amount of work that Whitmarsh has been seen to do since the Sunday morning of the Malaysian GP, I agree with you that it is a fair decision.

It should ensure no repeat.....but we all thought that about a $100million fine!

[BeansBeansBeans]

No, because there wasn't a hope in hell of him ever apologising or doing anything to change the culture.

There was no culture. It's a red herring.

[Jag_Warrior]

Heres a lesson kids, you can cheat and lie and get away with it.

Ya think?

http://randolphgrouponline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/helio_castroneves.jpg

[555-04Q2]

Come on let's be serious, they've cheated, they deserve a proper punishment not a 2nd chance !

pino, I dont care what anyone says, everyone in F1 "cheats". McLarens mistake was getting caught! F1 is not a clean cut and richeous show, its a cut throat business where winning is all that matters and "cheating/bending rules/circumventing rule loop holes" etc is a vital way of getting those wins.

[gloomyDAY]

McLaren should be suspended now.

What gives? In a year's time people will forget and maybe the FIA will also forget the 3-race ban on McLaren. Also, McLaren will probably be a lot stronger next year, so it might be in their best interest to just do the right thing and step aside for a few races.

Question: Does a race ban mean that a banned team cannot participate in practice?

[Bagwan]

That settles it then .
It's a three race ban for bringing the sport into dis-repute , but if you fire your engineer , say you're sorry , and cause enough disturbance to cause enough lines of press , we'll drop the penalty to 5 points .


Don't you dare pass under the yellow , though , as we'll drop you 12 places , penalizing you 6 points .

[tintop]

It might not be popular, but I think that the FIA got what they wanted - a humbled Mclaren - the departure of Ron, and the retention of some of the most important sponsors / engine suppliers in F1. Think that it was an economic calculus.

[pino]

pino, I dont care what anyone says, everyone in F1 "cheats". McLarens mistake was getting caught! F1 is not a clean cut and richeous show, its a cut throat business where winning is all that matters and "cheating/bending rules/circumventing rule loop holes" etc is a vital way of getting those wins.

I totally disagree with you, I don't think everyone is cheating, but in case I am wrong, as soon as the catch them doing that, they must be punished...no matter what. FIA has once again given a very bad example of sport-justice and has invited other Team to do what McLaren did, now they know they only need to say sorry if catched :s

[harvick#1]

so Heikki does nothing wrong and gets a 3 race suspension also???

what a farce

[Knock-on]

Believe me, that wasn't me being offensive.

You'd know if I was....ain't that right, Knockie?!

Yep, our Tamb can be a right cheeky monkey when he gets a bee in his bonnet.

Fortunatly, bees are back in the Hive and Bonnet firmly back in place ;)

[BeansBeansBeans]

I totally disagree with you, I don't think everyone is cheating, but in case I am wrong, as soon as the catch them doing that, they must be punished...no matter what. FIA has once again given a very bad example of sport-justice and has invited other Team to do what McLaren did, now they know they only need to say sorry if catched :s

They were disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix, which was a fair punishment, in my opinion. All the rest of it has been sabre-rattling on the part of the FIA. It was successful too, as Mosley acheived his aim of ousting Ron Dennis from F1.

[BeansBeansBeans]

so Heikki does nothing wrong and gets a 3 race suspension also???

what a farce

The team has been punished. Therefore every member of the team would be affected, regardless of whether they were directly involved.

[SGWilko]

I totally disagree with you, I don't think everyone is cheating, but in case I am wrong, as soon as the catch them doing that, they must be punished...no matter what. FIA has once again given a very bad example of sport-justice and has invited other Team to do what McLaren did, now they know they only need to say sorry if catched :s

And lose the team principal. You missed a rather important piece of the jigsaw there Sonny....

[Knock-on]

McLaren should be suspended now.

What gives? In a year's time people will forget and maybe the FIA will also forget the 3-race ban on McLaren. Also, McLaren will probably be a lot stronger next year, so it might be in their best interest to just do the right thing and step aside for a few races.

Question: Does a race ban mean that a banned team cannot participate in practice?

I think that the 3 race ban, suspended for a year means that any repeat from them within the year will trigger the 3 race ban otherwise it lapses.

[SGWilko]

Yep, our Tamb can be a right cheeky monkey when he gets a bee in his bonnet.

Fortunatly, bees are back in the Hive and Bonnet firmly back in place ;)

I'm sure we are all very proud of his ability to offend.... :eek:

[UltimateDanGTR]

Why am I not surprised to see a load of Ferrari supporters all saying Mclaren should be banned? simply cos your own team is doing rubbish at the moment.........

I actually think the suspended punishment evens things out a little bit. Mclaren cheated once, paid the price, end of story. then they were robbed of a victory in Belgium by the stewards because Hamilton overtook a Ferrari (which is very bad :rolleyes: ) also, Massa shouldve had a penalty in Valencia.

so the FIA actually owed something to Mclaren, by trying to stop them to win the world championship as muh as they can. YET THEY FAILED!! HA, take that Max and bernie!

so, the score was set straight when mclaren cheated and got caught. this penalty means that if mclaren cheated again, they'd get punished again. and so the record would still be straight.

FIA vs mclaren: curently 4-4. even. a draw. the way it should be.

I'm sure we are all very proud of his ability to offend.... :eek:

It is not the work of a moment, I'll have you know!

Why am I not surprised to see a load of Ferrari supporters all saying Mclaren should be banned? simply cos your own team is doing rubbish at the moment.........

You evidently don't know the Tifosi too well.

Ferrari fans wanting Mclaren to be banned would happen even if Ferrari went on the biggest trophy haul of their history.

In fact, I know a few who wouldn't be happy until everybody wearing a silver shirt was dragged round the back of the garage, shot and thrown into a deep pit.

But enough about my Mum and Dad...

[Knock-on]

Given the amount of work that Whitmarsh has been seen to do since the Sunday morning of the Malaysian GP, I agree with you that it is a fair decision.

It should ensure no repeat.....but we all thought that about a $100million fine!

I think the Vendetta is over with Ron leaving.

Ferrari and McLaren have made up and Max has seen the exit of his Nemesis.

Looks like we have closure on a lot of the crap surrounding F1 and can get back to the sideshow.... or racing as it's sometimes known.

Lets hope the sea of change laps at the shores of this forum :)

[Hondo]

I voted no. At the corporate level, considering the changes McLaren has made, I think it's ok. I still think Hamilton, personally, should have gotten at least a one race ban for his willing participation. He has a contract with McLaren, he wouldn't have been fired, he should have done the right thing to start with. Couldn't you just see McLaren in court or in front of the contracts board explaining why they had to fire Hamilton because he refused to lie for them in a stewards investigation? Hamilton was a player in this, not a victim.

[christophulus]

It's the right decision IMO.

I don't condone what they did, I'm still really disappointed that McLaren and Hamilton lied. But both their reputations have been shot to pieces, and it's mainly their own fault for not being honest. They've done themselves enough damage and the best thing for everyone is to move on.

[UltimateDanGTR]

You evidently don't know the Tifosi too well.

Ferrari fans wanting Mclaren to be banned would happen even if Ferrari went on the biggest trophy haul of their history.

In fact, I know a few who wouldn't be happy until everybody wearing a silver shirt was dragged round the back of the garage, shot and thrown into a deep pit.

But enough about my Mum and Dad...

exactly my point. you ferrari fans simply have a vendetta against mclaren for winning agaisnt them a few times and will try to attack at every given moment that mclaren put as much as a foot wrong. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

For that I confused. this rivalry seems very fierce from your side, but as a mclaren fan I think its less so from ours. I didnt mind ferrari, until I began to realise that the FIA were very much on their side.

but ill stop now, before that leads into another debate that i cant be bothered to have........

[F1boat]

I think the Vendetta is over with Ron leaving.

Ferrari and McLaren have made up and Max has seen the exit of his Nemesis.

Looks like we have closure on a lot of the crap surrounding F1 and can get back to the sideshow.... or racing as it's sometimes known.

Lets hope the sea of change laps at the shores of this forum :)

IMO now FIA has another team, which would be loyal to them in the battle with FOTA. The diffuser three are the others, IMO.

exactly my point. you ferrari fans simply have a vendetta against mclaren for winning agaisnt them a few times and will try to attack at every given moment that mclaren put as much as a foot wrong. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

Where as we should have been ecstatic that our biggest rivals were cheating again?

Here's a tip - Don't cheat and nobody would complain.

The vendetta has nothing to do with Mclaren winning a 'few' races. The Tifosi don't despise Williams, who for years battered us around the head with big sticks.

It's all about Ron Dennis being a scumbag who never got over the fact that he wasn't as revered as Enzo so took every opportunity to disrespect the Scuderia.

It's all about Ron Dennis being a scumbag who never got over the fact that he wasn't as revered as Enzo so took every opportunity to disrespect the Scuderia.

Official Tifosi Belief. Trade marked.

Might not be factual true in its entirety, but then neither might the story of the crucifixtion and they built a bloody great faith system based on that.

[aryan]

Fair enough punishment.

I was expecting a 30 points reduction, but OTOH they have already lost thepoints for Australia, they are given a suspended sentence which means that if they do anything, it's an automatic 3-race ban.

I don't think they got away light. They have lost so many of their fans in this process. While spygate was a back-of-the-room deal, with the public not really knowing what had happened, this was a very visible and public affair and everyone will remember McLaren for this.

[tintop]

I think that the 3 race ban, suspended for a year means that any repeat from them within the year will trigger the 3 race ban otherwise it lapses.

Yes within the 12 month period, so it runs into the 2010 season.

[tintop]

IMO now FIA has another team, which would be loyal to them in the battle with FOTA. The diffuser three are the others, IMO.

Good point!

Question: Does a race ban mean that a banned team cannot participate in practice?

Yes. They are banned from attending the race meeting.

BAR-Honda in 2005 were not in attendance at either the Spanish or Monaco GP's.

[harvick#1]

Ya think?

http://randolphgrouponline.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/helio_castroneves.jpg

and yet everyone is so happy to see that man back, I wish the US wouldn't let that cheat back in

"In the end there were decisions taken by the people who are no longer involved. That being the case, it would have been unfair to go on with the matter."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74941

You've got to admire the way he uses a knife.

[DexDexter]

It translates as: We’ve got what we wanted. Ron Dennis has gone. Therefore we're not going to punish McLaren.

Now Ron can return, I mean why not?

[F1boat]

Now Ron can return, I mean why not?

They will find something and the ban will be unleashed ;)

Now Ron can return, I mean why not?

I think you'll find this is why not.....


"In the end there were decisions taken by the people who are no longer involved. That being the case, it would have been unfair to go on with the matter."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74941


If the people were to return, then it wouldn't be unfair to go on with the matter.

In fact, I reckon the ban would kick in before there would be time to screw the "Ron Dennis, Team Principal" plaque to the office door.

Ron's gone. The victim of himself.

[F1boat]

Besides, Ron left AFTER his team won the WDC with Lewis. There is nothing more he can want from the sport.

[Koz]

I am sorry... Is this why Ron left?

Him leaving has been rumored since last year, he's got other to do now...

^^ Yeah, he got what he wanted. End of story. He left at a high. He would have done it whether or not this liargate happened or not.

Or do you people seriously think that he left BECAUSE of it? Really, come on...

And the punishment is crap.

Maybe someone else should cheat too, if they plan on retiring...

[F1boat]

I am sorry... Is this why Ron left?

Him leaving has been rumored since last year, he's got other to do now...

^^ Yeah, he got what he wanted. End of story. He left at a high. He would have done it whether or not this liargate happened or not.

Or do you people seriously think that he left BECAUSE of it? Really, come on...

And the punishment is crap.

Maybe someone else should cheat too, if they plan on retiring...

Flavio?

[BDunnell]

For what it's worth, I think the decision in relation to the team was fair, because I feel the whole situation — which should have been dealt with there and then, either with an exclusion or penalty — has been blown out of all proportion, but feel that Hamilton personally has got off very lightly. I'm not saying he should have been hung, drawn and quartered or anything like that, but his own actions and those of Dave Ryan were clearly the direct cause of the problem here. Ryan has suffered. Hamilton ought to pay some sort of penalty beyond the race exclusion, which should probably have happened anyway even without the subsequent fiasco. Not the sack, but maybe a race ban or some such.

[Valve Bounce]

I am very disappointed about it, so it doesn't matter if you're trying to cheat as long as you say sorry when/if they catch you, what a joke :down:


ioan!! is that you?? :eek:

[Daniel]

ioan!! is that you?? :eek:
You might be able to join Ioan where you're probably headed ;) :p

[Valve Bounce]

You might be able to join Ioan where you're probably headed ;) :p

:(

[Daniel]

Only joking VB :) I would hope you would never get banned :)

[Valve Bounce]

Only joking VB :) I would hope you would never get banned :)


Me too :(

[wedge]

I think they got off lightly considering the other crap from the past 18 months.

Once again the FIA don't have the balls to reallythrow the book at someone without risking commercial eventualities.

[N. Jones]

They've been penalized multiple times these last three seasons.
They went through turmoil during Alonso's short stay.
They were booted from the constructors championship.
They were fined more money than the earnings of everyone on this forum combined.
They found themselves at the wrong end of the grid in 2009.
Their #1 driver was excluded from Australia.
One employee was fired, if not two, over the last three years, and now a suspended sentence.
Ron Dennis is no longer part of the F1 enterprise and to top it all of he ended up divorced last year.

In the name of all that is holy, if that enough punishment for one team?!

[BDunnell]

ioan!! is that you?? :eek:

Like it!

[BDunnell]

I think they got off lightly considering the other crap from the past 18 months.

Once again the FIA don't have the balls to reallythrow the book at someone without risking commercial eventualities.

But let's not forget that the incident which provoked all of this would be viewed by many as too minor to have merited McLaren's attempts to mislead the stewards, which still beggar belief and, to me (for I just don't buy into the 'culture of deceit' stuff) defy rational explanation, just as the actions of many people do from time to time. Therefore, there would be a risk of further punishment to the team genuinely going over the top.

[wedge]

But let's not forget that the incident which provoked all of this would be viewed by many as too minor to have merited McLaren's attempts to mislead the stewards, which still beggar belief and, to me (for I just don't buy into the 'culture of deceit' stuff) defy rational explanation, just as the actions of many people do from time to time. Therefore, there would be a risk of further punishment to the team genuinely going over the top.

It's hardly a coincidence that you have another employee(s) going rogue? There seriously something wrong with your organisation if your employees go off and do their own thing with little accountability.

[markabilly]

"In the end there were decisions taken by the people who are no longer involved. That being the case, it would have been unfair to go on with the matter."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74941

You've got to admire the way he uses a knife.

All in all, a scapegoat in Ryan and RD, to save the team after little liar Lewis blew his whistle on himself and blamed someone else for his being a liar...

If the people who made the decisions to lie are "people who are no longer involved", then why is Lewis still with the team? :rolleyes:

Possible for another employee to go rogue?? Geeass, "another"???
How about the same employee??
Hamster

Usual total bullshot, get caught and threaten to quit, then throw a scapegoat or two on the trash pile, say sorry, their fault, but they are not involved anymore, let us move on, and move on...... :dozey:

[markabilly]

It's hardly a coincidence that you have another employee(s) going rogue? There seriously something wrong with your organisation if your employees go off and do their own thing with little accountability.
"little accountability"
another employee??
AKA Lewis.

[CNR]

I HAVE A JOKE FOR YOU ALL
January 16, 2009
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/formula_1/article5531559.ece
Ron Dennis leaves McLaren in safe hands



Ron Dennis refused to accept it yesterday but his decision to step down as head of the team he has led for almost three decades is the end of a sporting era. Dennis took over McLaren in 1980 and, in the 28 years since, produced five remarkable Formula One world champions and built a company that stands as an example of all that is best in British industry.
Although rumours of his departure as team principal have circulated the Formula One paddock for months, Dennis's announcement at the launch of McLaren's challenger for the 2009 World Championship still came as a bombshell for those who regard him as one of the fixtures and fittings of the sport. When Dennis started life on the Formula One pitwall, Enzo Ferrari was in his pomp, towering over the sport.

[Ghostwalker]

i think we can be pretty certain at even if McLaren would do something simialr with in a year i doubt FIA would dare to do anything just because they are afraid of loosing Mercedes.

i think this sign should be applied on McLarens cars;

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_evNY1hB2ZHM/Rt2TyPiMrjI/AAAAAAAAAp8/a9OVyqrQHzA/s320/%C3%B6vningsk%C3%B6r.gif (http://www.ovningskorning.net/giffs/ovningskorning.gif)

[Valve Bounce]

I have to agree with Markabilly here that Lewis escaped very lightly. In fact, he was hardly punished. Lewis went into the meeting and lied - there is no escape from this fact. He could have diffused the situation by simply standing up and telling Ryan that he wasn't going to lie. What was McLaren going to do if he insisted on telling the truth? There was only one option: tell the truth.

This little bugger went and lied, then blamed the other guy for forcing him to lie. There is no way anyone in McLaren could have forced Lewis to lie - he was their star driver - they had nobody else to drive for them.

I don't like this at all - it stinks. Everybody blaming McLaren, Ryan, Dennis, when the real culprit gets away with it. Lewis deserves a good kick in the arse and a whipping from Max.

[CNR]

cheat lie and steal

now think about this lewis cheated and got ahead of kimmi he knew enough about the rules to let kimmi back pasted in a spot where lewis could easy get back pasted him

could this in australia be pay back to toyota for Brazil last year if it was not for toyota massa would be champ ?

[Valve Bounce]

cheat lie and steal

now think about this lewis cheated and got ahead of kimmi he knew enough about the rules to let kimmi back pasted in a spot where lewis could easy get back pasted him

could this in australia be pay back to toyota for Brazil last year if it was not for toyota massa would be champ ?

I don't understand. :confused:
Could you please re-phrase your post so that I can understand. Thanks.

[tintop]

But let's not forget that the incident which provoked all of this would be viewed by many as too minor to have merited McLaren's attempts to mislead the stewards, which still beggar belief and, to me (for I just don't buy into the 'culture of deceit' stuff) defy rational explanation, just as the actions of many people do from time to time. Therefore, there would be a risk of further punishment to the team genuinely going over the top.

It is crazy how Mclaren and the FIA let (wanted to let) this snowball.

[leopard]

Like it! ;)

[leopard]

Human being makes mistakes, It will not be beneficial to lose strong characters for every mistake get punished with warning and possible ban.

There may need the better scheme investigating persons or teams in question in order to enable to draw conclusion and avoid situation force them to admit that they told something wrong.

I think they were only trying to put up their effort in attempt to win the race, putting forward opinion in series of hearing or inspection, they might not think of consequence resulted from their attempt will be such disastrous. Hoping a constructive decision is formed to give fewer disadvantages to all parties involved. Internal consolidation already taken into effect, they also wrote formal apology letter to governing body, all of these reflect a good determination with a view to make the mistake excusable …

[555-04Q2]

Why am I not surprised to see a load of Ferrari supporters all saying Mclaren should be banned? simply cos your own team is doing rubbish at the moment........

I'm a Ferrari supporter since the late 1980's and I think the whole thing is a load of ferking bullsh!t. I'm against the McLaren "ban".

[555-04Q2]

but ill stop now, before that leads into another debate that i cant be bothered to have........

So kind of you...

[CNR]

I don't understand. :confused:
Could you please re-phrase your post so that I can understand. Thanks.
cheat lie and steal

29 Sep 2008 ... McLaren' Lewis Hamilton was handed a 25-second time penalty for cutting through the final chicane and overtaking Kimmi

in the dying laps, Hamilton ran across the Bus Stop chicane as he attempted to pass Raikkonen. He correctly surrendered the position, but then dived past the Ferrari going into the La Source hairpin.

he know the rules enough to let kimmi back past then
so why would he think it would be the same if he was on the race track

could this in australia be pay back to toyota for Brazil last year if it was not for toyota massa would be champ ?

[leopard]

So kind of you...
only heaven knows ...

[leopard]

What happened to 'Ioan'? I miss the bias little fella - Bring him back Pino ;)

what a joke... ;)

[Storm]

What a joke....

who was it in the Dennis quits thread that was saying that it was completely co-incidental that he quit at that moment?

It was a deal.

Still should have got a 2 race ban (atleast)

30 v 16 people think that FIA got it right?? :crazy:

[pino]

What happened to 'Ioan'? I miss the bias little fella - Bring him back Pino ;)

He will back in two weeks time (if he wish that) :)

[Valve Bounce]

cheat lie and steal

29 Sep 2008 ... McLaren' Lewis Hamilton was handed a 25-second time penalty for cutting through the final chicane and overtaking Kimmi

in the dying laps, Hamilton ran across the Bus Stop chicane as he attempted to pass Raikkonen. He correctly surrendered the position, but then dived past the Ferrari going into the La Source hairpin.

he know the rules enough to let kimmi back past then
so why would he think it would be the same if he was on the race track

could this in australia be pay back to toyota for Brazil last year if it was not for toyota massa would be champ ?

You are drawing a very long bow - I cannot see the logic of your argument though. I mean going on what your point, that Toyota helped Lewis win the championship last year, why would Lewis lie to the Stewards to get Trulli into strife? :confused:

[Knock-on]

He will back in two weeks time (if he wish that) :)

There goes the neighbourhood. Thought it was too polite and constructive around here ;)

[SGWilko]

He will back in two weeks time (if he wish that) :)

I see you fecked up his notification like you did with me. Don't learn, do you?

'Banned for ever' me and him were notified everytime we tried to log in.

You might want to be a little consciencous this time and fix that bug, or we'll be thinking you don't give a chuff.

Or, perhaps that's it, you don't.........

[wedge]

I have to agree with Markabilly here that Lewis escaped very lightly. In fact, he was hardly punished. Lewis went into the meeting and lied - there is no escape from this fact. He could have diffused the situation by simply standing up and telling Ryan that he wasn't going to lie. What was McLaren going to do if he insisted on telling the truth? There was only one option: tell the truth.

This little bugger went and lied, then blamed the other guy for forcing him to lie. There is no way anyone in McLaren could have forced Lewis to lie - he was their star driver - they had nobody else to drive for them.

I don't like this at all - it stinks. Everybody blaming McLaren, Ryan, Dennis, when the real culprit gets away with it. Lewis deserves a good kick in the arse and a whipping from Max.

Because its Lewis Hamilton and he's a star driver.

Much like say 1997 when Schumi got a slap on the wrist ie. championship classification deleted when really he should've been banned for a few races in 1998 at the very least; and McLaren being fined a couple of years ago and still being allowed to fight for WDC in an illegal car.

[tintop]

cheat lie and steal

29 Sep 2008 ... McLaren' Lewis Hamilton was handed a 25-second time penalty for cutting through the final chicane and overtaking Kimmi

in the dying laps, Hamilton ran across the Bus Stop chicane as he attempted to pass Raikkonen. He correctly surrendered the position, but then dived past the Ferrari going into the La Source hairpin.

he know the rules enough to let kimmi back past then
so why would he think it would be the same if he was on the race track

could this in australia be pay back to toyota for Brazil last year if it was not for toyota massa would be champ ?

For one thing the difference between the two offs is that one was under green conditions, while the other was under FCY conditions. One involved improving ones position via the off, the other concerned losing one's position from an off. The Toyota thing is funny but of course the stewards corrected their mistake.

[N. Jones]

They've been penalized multiple times these last three seasons.
They went through turmoil during Alonso's short stay.
They were booted from the constructors championship.
They were fined more money than the earnings of everyone on this forum combined.
They found themselves at the wrong end of the grid in 2009.
Their #1 driver was excluded from Australia.
One employee was fired, if not two, over the last three years, and now a suspended sentence.
Ron Dennis is no longer part of the F1 enterprise and to top it all of he ended up divorced last year.

In the name of all that is holy, if that enough punishment for one team?!

ARGH - if that isn't is how I meant to put it!

[Valve Bounce]

He will back in two weeks time (if he wish that) :)

This proves you have a heart. (I always thought so).

[markabilly]

I have to agree with Markabilly here that Lewis escaped very lightly. In fact, he was hardly punished. Lewis went into the meeting and lied - there is no escape from this fact. He could have diffused the situation by simply standing up and telling Ryan that he wasn't going to lie. What was McLaren going to do if he insisted on telling the truth? There was only one option: tell the truth.

This little bugger went and lied, then blamed the other guy for forcing him to lie. There is no way anyone in McLaren could have forced Lewis to lie - he was their star driver - they had nobody else to drive for them.

I don't like this at all - it stinks. Everybody blaming McLaren, Ryan, Dennis, when the real culprit gets away with it. Lewis deserves a good kick in the arse and a whipping from Max.
Actually you are giving Hamilton the benefit of the doubt.

I read the transcript of the car to car radio transmissions and it was not clear to me that when he said "let him by" if he meant he did not fight him

Ryan was in no position to know anymore than that (or whatever Lewis told him as to what happened). The same is true for the in-car data (anybody doubt that, just look at Japan in 2007 with all the crashing behind him when he pulled over while behind the pace car--drivers do all sorts of odd manuvers during cautions, allegedly to keeep tires warm even when they do not need--look at how MS managed to crash himself out of the Monaco GP one year)

HOWEVER when you listen to the interview he gave right after he jumps out of the car, YOU CAN HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT HAMILTON WAS SAYING WAS HIS SUBJECTIVE INTENT

If ryan heard that interview and still went along with the story or got hamilton to lie, he was an absolutely stupid fool for he should have known that they would be caught up in the web.

It is even dumber that Hamilton, having given that interview, would tell the lie, either on his own or because Ryan or even RD told him to do it.

And read what Charlie W. had to say about it, that Hamilton was the one acting like something was wrong at the first hearing---NOT RYAN.

Ryan was not the one answering the questions, Hamilton was.

Stranger than fiction.....and almost as good as pro werstlin....

"(c) that the McLaren Team Principal has assured members of the WMSC that there has been a change in culture within McLaren and that the course of conduct – or similar – will not be repeated"

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74972

Let's hope so.

Still would like to know how there can be a change of culture when, according to some, there was no culture in the first place.

But it appears that is too tough a question to receive an answer.

[pino]

Actually you are giving Hamilton the benefit of the doubt.

I read the transcript of the car to car radio transmissions and it was not clear to me that when he said "let him by" if he meant he did not fight him

Ryan was in no position to know anymore than that (or whatever Lewis told him as to what happened). The same is true for the in-car data (anybody doubt that, just look at Japan in 2007 with all the crashing behind him when he pulled over while behind the pace car--drivers do all sorts of odd manuvers during cautions, allegedly to keeep tires warm even when they do not need--look at how MS managed to crash himself out of the Monaco GP one year)

HOWEVER when you listen to the interview he gave right after he jumps out of the car, YOU CAN HAVE NO DOUBT AS TO WHAT HAMILTON WAS SAYING WAS HIS SUBJECTIVE INTENT

If ryan heard that interview and still went along with the story or got hamilton to lie, he was an absolutely stupid fool for he should have known that they would be caught up in the web.

It is even dumber that Hamilton, having given that interview, would tell the lie, either on his own or because Ryan or even RD told him to do it.

And read what Charlie W. had to say about it, that Hamilton was the one acting like something was wrong at the first hearing---NOT RYAN.

Ryan was not the one answering the questions, Hamilton was.

Stranger than fiction.....and almost as good as pro werstlin....

Please don't use "bold" letters when posting, thank you !

[DexDexter]

Still would like to know how there can be a change of culture when, according to some, there was no culture in the first place.

But it appears that is too tough a question to receive an answer.

Give it a rest man, it's over, let's look forward to the next scandal. :)

[tintop]

Give it a rest man, it's over, let's look forward to the next scandal. :)

Post of the season :s mokin:

[CNR]

You are drawing a very long bow - I cannot see the logic of your argument though. I mean going on what your point, that Toyota helped Lewis win the championship last year, why would Lewis lie to the Stewards to get Trulli into strife? :confused:

in the race he may have done the payback but it went pair shaped after the race

[Lalo]

As far as I know, McLaren isn't going to be suspended for three races unless they make the same mistake again, is that right?

They should have been suspended for the three races now and not "in case...".

Give it a rest man, it's over, let's look forward to the next scandal. :)


Post of the season :s mokin:

Further proof that apparently answering the question is too tough for some.

Now, why is that????

[DexDexter]

Further proof that apparently answering the question is too tough for some.

Now, why is that????

Why do you insist on the matter, I think people are tired of it. We need 20 cars, Mclaren and Mercedes in F1, that's the bottom line. They lied, so what? Of course they have to say they are going to change to please the FIA. There have been far worse cases in F1 history where a team or drivers have not been banned from racing. I remember certain Michael Schumacher hitting cars on purpose and parking his car on the track on purpose. Or another legend Senna hitting Prost in order to win the championship in 1990, or Senna putting Prost nearly into a wall at the start/finish straight in Estoril 1-2 years earlier at 300kph. Looking at those incidents lying to the stewards is maybe not such a big deal anymore.

[Valve Bounce]

Please don't use "bold" letters when posting, thank you !


Agreed! :(

It made me dizzy :eek:

Why do you insist on the matter, I think people are tired of it. We need 20 cars, Mclaren and Mercedes in F1, that's the bottom line. They lied, so what? Of course they have to say they are going to change to please the FIA. There have been far worse cases in F1 history where a team or drivers have not been banned from racing. I remember certain Michael Schumacher hitting cars on purpose and parking his car on the track on purpose. Or another legend Senna hitting Prost in order to win the championship in 1990, or Senna putting Prost nearly into a wall at the start/finish straight in Estoril 1-2 years earlier at 300kph. Looking at those incidents lying to the stewards is maybe not such a big deal anymore.

Typical Mclaren fan deflection.

[DexDexter]

Typical Mclaren fan deflection.

That's a load of something best left unsaid. Which team do I like the most? Ferrari.

[markabilly]

"they lied, so what??"

Well, this is just another example of how well one can use machavelli in the politics of F1.

The story of Remorca serves a great example. The prince was concerned about a particularly troublesome area, sent this very capable and loyal man to "cure" this troublesome group of people, granting him complete and unlimited power.

And very harshly and brutally he did so, quickly bringing a fearful quiet to the region (as machavellie [pronounced as "markabilly" by an old former prof of mine] once said a great leader should be both feared and loved, but seldom can you have both, so it is better to be feared)

Anyway, realizing that the remaining general population (now minus the ringleaders) had developed some resentment resentment over the brutual treatment, he decided to appease them

"And having taken this for his opportunity, he had him placed in the square in Cesena, one morning, in two pieces ] with a piece of wood and a bloody knife beside him. The ferocity of which spectacle left those peoples at once satisfied and stupefied."



Some might understand this concept better, by reference to the term "scapegoat" or "Patrick Ryan"

Unfortunately, for RD, the other prince (Norbert Haug) decided that RD would be appropriate for this role as well..and thereby saves Hamilton from proper punishment......so having appeased everyone, we can now go on.....