Rubens

[Ranger]

What's the deal?

[ShiftingGears]

Rubens is a good driver, it's just that BGP are the 3rd best team and the fact that they have won 3/4 races is purely down to Jenson Button.


But on a less fictitious note he is seriously underperforming. His only podium so far was a very lucky one.

[Sonic]

Well his recent performances have cured me of the little bout of rubens fan fever I suffered from recently. Up till china i'd been singing his praises (even suggesting a win at china wa on the cards) but the fact is either jenson is as good as shumi was (which I just can't belive) or rubens is well bellow his best. I still want the guy to do well but I should think ross brawn will be having a little chat with rubens shortly about becoming a rear gunner again.

Actually, I'm delighted that he is performing at the level he is, if only because it will shut up those ones who thought he should have got equal treatment at Ferrari.

[Valve Bounce]

What's the deal?

BIG

[woody2goody]

Only a bad start in Australia prevented him from challenging Button, and a terrible strategy in Bahrain kept him off the podium. He may have beaten Vettel and Trulli if not for that idiotic three stopper.

I said in the other thread, he's driving as well as in 2004, if not better, free from the pressures of Ferrari and a bad car with Honda. He just needs a bit of luck and he'll be winning again. I wouldn't put it past him in Spain actually. Although he'll have to beat Button and Trulli who have a history of driving well there.

[Knock-on]

Actually, I'm delighted that he is performing at the level he is, if only because it will shut up those ones who thought he should have got equal treatment at Ferrari.

Interesting concept.

Did he ever do enough to warrent equal treatment. I would say no.

Did he deserve to have been so handicapped though?

He was and is a very quick driver but possibly not on the same level as his two team mates.

[wedge]

Actually, I'm delighted that he is performing at the level he is, if only because it will shut up those ones who thought he should have got equal treatment at Ferrari.

Tamburello - since you've read James Allen's book, you'll know Rubens has said there was more it and then we'll wait after he retires....

I think Rubens is on the verge of turning into the shadow of his former self. There seems to be a spark missing. His races have been poor so far compared to his Ferrari days when he could race against the McLarens.

[jens]

About a year ago I thought that maybe it's better for Barrichello to retire (bad car, no future, underperforming, what else?), but now... I'd like to see him to carry on for a long time. :p : Hard to explain - some kind of a wish to see him creating an incredible participation record, because he seems so motivated and full of will to do well and still prove something in F1. But that can happen only if he performed better or well enough to warrant a seat in F1 for the future, because so far in 2009 he hasn't done much alas...



I said in the other thread, he's driving as well as in 2004, if not better, free from the pressures of Ferrari and a bad car with Honda. He just needs a bit of luck and he'll be winning again. I wouldn't put it past him in Spain actually. Although he'll have to beat Button and Trulli who have a history of driving well there.

China was supposed to be Rubens' strong circuit too + wet conditions, where he has often excelled, yet he didn't do much and was struggling to beat Kova in a McLaren. :( It's difficult to keep belief in Rubens. I can't believe he is driving as well as in 2004... or otherwise MS is nothing special. :)

[woody2goody]

About a year ago I thought that maybe it's better for Barrichello to retire (bad car, no future, underperforming, what else?), but now... I'd like to see him to carry on for a long time. :p : Hard to explain - some kind of a wish to see him creating an incredible participation record, because he seems so motivated and full of will to do well and still prove something in F1. But that can happen only if he performed better or well enough to warrant a seat in F1 for the future, because so far in 2009 he hasn't done much alas...



China was supposed to be Rubens' strong circuit too + wet conditions, where he has often excelled, yet he didn't do much and was struggling to beat Kova in a McLaren. :( It's difficult to keep belief in Rubens. I can't believe he is driving as well as in 2004... or otherwise MS is nothing special. :)

Well yes, but the Brawn itself wasn't particularly great in Shanghai as they'd had little wet running. Although his quali wasn't great to be fair. I think Schumacher is a genius and he is certainly a special driver, but this is as aggressive and feisty as I've ever seen Barrichello.

I'm sure he'll get to 300 Grands Prix. I just hope he gets there with at least a couple more wins otherwise unfortunately he will just be seen as a journeyman.

[Bagwan]

Actually, I'm delighted that he is performing at the level he is, if only because it will shut up those ones who thought he should have got equal treatment at Ferrari.

But , isn't there any connection for the "ones" to make , that Ross was then , and is now , in charge of Rubens' strategy ?
Could it not be said that he was employed to be a number 2 , now to Button , as he was to the red shoe ?

I don't think I've seen any mention of even the possibility that Button is being favoured in the same way that as Michael .

I find it curious that those "ones" , who doubted Michael's prowess , and slagged Rubens for his number 2 status , haven't considered that Button might have an edge more than skill .

It's not like I think Jensen is slow . I like him , and admire his skill , and smooth style , but I am a JV fan , and I know he was favoured in that era . I don't think it's a stretch to think he is now , too .

Jensen , in my opinion , learned a lot from Michael .
He learned what to do , and what not to do .
He's the un-tarnished Brit .



I know . I know .
Someone from the colonies shouldn't have such uppity opinions .
I shall say 3 "Hail Jensens" .

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Too old

[F1boat]

Actually, I'm delighted that he is performing at the level he is, if only because it will shut up those ones who thought he should have got equal treatment at Ferrari.

Aye!

[Caroline]

Too old

Explain?

[Sonic]

Indeed. Explain. Age is not relevant.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Explain?


Indeed. Explain. Age is not relevant.

Eyes, fitness, reaction times , motivation all declining.

If age isn't relevant then why isn't Mansell or Alesi still out there? Of course it's relevant in sport

[Valve Bounce]

Eyes, fitness, reaction times , motivation all declining.

If age isn't relevant then why isn't Mansell or Alesi still out there? Of course it's relevant in sport

Unfortunately, this is true. The only sport that I know of where aged competitors excel is yachting, because many, many years of experience counts on critical decisions. Many old salts compete quite successfully in the Sydney Hobart here, and I am sure in many top races all over the world.

[markabilly]

Unfortunately, this is true. The only sport that I know of where aged competitors excel is yachting, because many, many years of experience counts on critical decisions. Many old salts compete quite successfully in the Sydney Hobart here, and I am sure in many top races all over the world.
You should add in sex...that idea works great with the youngsters, I am here to say based on personal expeirence ;)

util they discover otherwise, but then it is too late....

As to rubens, the real problem is first his right foot braking style hurts, and second, the car style and his style do not match up as well as Button and his style with the car

Otherwise, Button would still be runing behind him (or so close that you could not say one was doing better than the other) as Button did for the last several years

[555-04Q2]

What's the deal?

Bunsen is just so good that Ruby baby cant keep up. Hell, in 2004 Bunsen even said he could beat Schumacher in a straight fight. Wakes up...coffee is cold.

[markabilly]

Bunsen is just so good that Ruby baby cant keep up. Hell, in 2004 Bunsen even said he could beat Schumacher in a straight fight. Wakes up...coffee is cold.
hell, if bunsen said it, it must be true......I wonder how he would have done in a gay fight?

Well hell, in 2004, I could beat Schumacher in a straight fight.
Indeed, in 1968, I beat Rolf Schumacher in a straight fight,
so now whose your daddy, schumi?? :s mokin:

[DexDexter]

Eyes, fitness, reaction times , motivation all declining.

If age isn't relevant then why isn't Mansell or Alesi still out there? Of course it's relevant in sport

Mansell won it when he was 39, Schumi could still race at the front at the age of 40.....Prost wasn't that young when he won his last championship. I think Rubens isn't hungry enough anymore. I've never rated him anyway...

[jens]

I think Rubens isn't hungry enough anymore.

Really? At least before the season it seemed he is as motivated as ever to finally get a chance to fight for the championship.

[Garry Walker]

Eyes, fitness, reaction times , motivation all declining.

If age isn't relevant then why isn't Mansell or Alesi still out there? Of course it's relevant in sport

Barrichello is of course as old as they are and of course Mansell did not win the title when he was nearly 40 years old, older than Rubens is now.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Rubens is still more than capable of competing in F1. He'll add to his 13 wins this year, I'm certain.

[ShiftingGears]

I agree with Jon. Although I wouldn't say anything is impossible, age does make things harder, especially in a sport where maximum fitness and dedication is required.


Barrichello is of course as old as they are and of course Mansell did not win the title when he was nearly 40 years old, older than Rubens is now.

I think you mean "did win the title".

[BeansBeansBeans]

I think you mean "did win the title".

I think Garry was being sarcastic.

[Ranger]

Rubens is still more than capable of competing in F1. He'll add to his 13 wins this year, I'm certain.

Nup. :p :

DC had 13 wins, Rubens has 9.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Barrichello is of course as old as they are and of course Mansell did not win the title when he was nearly 40 years old, older than Rubens is now.

You're missing my point. If age isn't relevant then why do F1 drivers retire when they reach their late 30's or early 40's?

Of course Rubens isn't as old as the drives I mentioned yet and is still competitive enough to be there but his best years are behind him. Jenson on the other hand his probably close to the prime of his career.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Nup. :p :

DC had 13 wins, Rubens has 9.

You're quite right :up:

My mistake.

[ShiftingGears]

I think Garry was being sarcastic.

oic.

[DexDexter]

Really? At least before the season it seemed he is as motivated as ever to finally get a chance to fight for the championship.

Let me rephrase, I'm sure he is as motivated as he can be but he's reached the peak of his career years ago, I'm sure the fire that was there in 93 isn't burning anymore no matter how much he likes F1.

[Garry Walker]

You're missing my point. If age isn't relevant then why do F1 drivers retire when they reach their late 30's or early 40's?

Where did I say age is NOT important? But it seems you are the one who missed the point I made, that you can be nearly 40 and still be very good in F1.
I will also say this - one part why they retire is that they start lacking motivation, they have families. But Rubens still wants that title.



Of course Rubens isn't as old as the drives I mentioned yet and is still competitive enough to be there but his best years are behind him. Jenson on the other hand his probably close to the prime of his career.

Rubens is not liking this years car that much, whereas Button is loving it. Last year Rubens was kicking buttons ass, yet suddenly with one winter, he has aged, his best days are behind him and he has declined so much in the opinion of some people that he must be fired at once.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Where did I say age is NOT important? But it seems you are the one who missed the point I made, that you can be nearly 40 and still be very good in F1.
I will also say this - one part why they retire is that they start lacking motivation, they have families. But Rubens still wants that title.

Fair enough :up: But I still think drivers get slower the older they get.




Rubens is not liking this years car that much, whereas Button is loving it. Last year Rubens was kicking buttons ass, yet suddenly with one winter, he has aged, his best days are behind him and he has declined so much in the opinion of some people that he must be fired at once.

I don't think it is Rubens who has declined so much or has a problem with the car, it is more to do with Jenson loving this years car. Last year the Honda was a nightmare for Button's driving style. He needs a balanced car because he likes to come off the brakes earlier than most and maintains a higher apex speed. He doesn't like to hustle the car like others do. Button is superb in a fast, balanced car, but hopeless is a slow unbalanced car.

[Ranger]

"The car not suiting my style" doesn't really stand up as a proper reason when your team-mate has won three races with it IMO.

He didn't become untalented overnight but he really needs to give a decent performance quick-smart.

[Garry Walker]

I don't think it is Rubens who has declined so much or has a problem with the car, it is more to do with Jenson loving this years car. Last year the Honda was a nightmare for Button's driving style. He needs a balanced car because he likes to come off the brakes earlier than most and maintains a higher apex speed. He doesn't like to hustle the car like others do. Button is superb in a fast, balanced car, but hopeless is a slow unbalanced car.

Did Peter windsor write the "analysis", which you are basing your thoughts on?

[555-04Q2]

Fair enough :up: But I still think drivers get slower the older they get.




I don't think it is Rubens who has declined so much or has a problem with the car, it is more to do with Jenson loving this years car. Last year the Honda was a nightmare for Button's driving style. He needs a balanced car because he likes to come off the brakes earlier than most and maintains a higher apex speed. He doesn't like to hustle the car like others do. Button is superb in a fast, balanced car, but hopeless is a slow unbalanced car.

A few drivers get better with age IMHO, ie Schumacher, Mansel, Fangio etc. The rest get worse.

I have to agree with the car suiting Button's driving style. The Brawn just turns in so effortlessly and leaves the corners so well, no wonder Button's "smooth" driving style is allowing him to walk the championship so far.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Did Peter windsor write the "analysis", which you are basing your thoughts on?

Mark Hughes actually :p

I might try and find an article from Autosport a few years back at the Chinese GP where Mark Hughes comments on how Button was over 2 seconds a lap faster than the rest of the field when they changed from intermediate tyres to slick tyres on a damp track.

[Garry Walker]

Mark Hughes actually :p

I might try and find an article from Autosport a few years back at the Chinese GP where Mark Hughes comments on how Button was over 2 seconds a lap faster than the rest of the field when they changed from intermediate tyres to slick tyres on a damp track.

Hughes is an idiot too. It is quite funny to read his and windsors articles on driving style (and other things), when it is painfully obvious they should comment on less complicated sports like snail racing.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Hughes is an idiot too. It is quite funny to read his and windsors articles on driving style (and other things), when it is painfully obvious they should comment on less complicated sports like snail racing.

Well sorry, but I will trust their words more than yours :p

[Garry Walker]

Well sorry, but I will trust their words more than yours :p

Do it at your peril, but I stopped taking windsor seriously when he described Villeneuves driving style in a way that was completely opposite how Villeneuve himself had described it. But I am sure mr.5th phase-turn-in knows better.
Hughes is not any better.

[Ranger]

A few drivers get better with age IMHO, ie Schumacher, Mansel, Fangio etc. The rest get worse.

I don't think Schumacher got better at all. His best performances were from 1995 to 1998 IMO.

Mansell didn't get better with age at all. He was still making the same race-ending mistakes in 1992 as he was in 1980. The only difference is that he only got a car that was 2 seconds faster than the rest of the grid when he was 39.

[555-04Q2]

I don't think Schumacher got better at all. His best performances were from 1995 to 1998 IMO.

Mansell didn't get better with age at all. He was still making the same race-ending mistakes in 1992 as he was in 1980. The only difference is that he only got a car that was 2 seconds faster than the rest of the grid when he was 39.

I dont know. Yes, I agree he was pretty good 95 to 98, but he (ok with a brilliant car it must be said) was absolutely sublime from 2000 to 2004 and made F1 his own in this period. 2006 was also a good showing by the "old" Schumi vs a young and hungry Alonso.

[AndyL]

I might try and find an article from Autosport a few years back at the Chinese GP where Mark Hughes comments on how Button was over 2 seconds a lap faster than the rest of the field when they changed from intermediate tyres to slick tyres on a damp track.

Or look back at Malaysia this year, when Button was 3 seconds faster than everyone else on the lap that it started to rain, and 8 seconds :eek: faster than Rosberg and Trulli immediately behind him.

[jens]

Fair enough :up: But I still think drivers get slower the older they get.

Often it is difficult to determine, whether a driver is struggling due to "age" or is there any other cause. For example I remember in the end of 2007 Barrichello started getting beaten by Button and many people thought RB is "past his prime", but he bounced back in 2008. Where is the dividing line whether it's the matter of age or something else?

[jens]

I dont know. Yes, I agree he was pretty good 95 to 98, but he (ok with a brilliant car it must be said) was absolutely sublime from 2000 to 2004 and made F1 his own in this period. 2006 was also a good showing by the "old" Schumi vs a young and hungry Alonso.

I was more impressed with Schumacher's drives in 95-98, because he had an inferior car and had to fight harder to get to the top. In 2000-2004 his car was at least on par with rivals, if not better, and he could have a more controlled approach to racing. 2006 IMO Schumacher wasn't quite at his prime any more. He made more mistakes than usual and faced a driver that was a match to him. I think it was the first time ever he struggled to beat a rival in similarly performing cars over a season. Quite opposite to - say - 1995, when he won WDC in an inferior car.

But when talking about "getting better with age", I'd add Trulli into that list. ;)

[Knock-on]

I also think that the physical impact is greater now especially on the drivers necks.

In the old days, age and guile could make up time but now, a 40 year old driver is going to really struggle physically.

I think Rubens is as quick as he used to be but possibly approaching the end this season.

[wedge]

I don't think Schumacher got better at all. His best performances were from 1995 to 1998 IMO.

Still had some amazing drives in the 2000s

Spa 2001? 02? where he already wrapped up the title and destroyed the whole field on his favourite track.

Imola 2006 was absolute genius. Held up Alonso for an eternity and saved fuel to blitz him during the pit window.

Brazil 2006 - OK he was aided by Massa slowing but to save his tyres and blitz them over a long stint was absolutely incredible. He went out in style by driving at 10 tenths for two-thirds of the race.


Do it at your peril, but I stopped taking windsor seriously when he described Villeneuves driving style in a way that was completely opposite how Villeneuve himself had described it. But I am sure mr.5th phase-turn-in knows better.
Hughes is not any better.

So you don't agree Button is crap in an unstable car or is Button - in your opinion - is just over-rated crap, period?

[woody2goody]

I think Rubens' motivation is still there and he's obviously still quick enough to win a championship. it's just whether he can go out and do it that's the challenge. I can't see him retiring any time soon. It'll probably be 2011 at the earliest that we see the end of his career.

Out of the current drivers, I think a lot of them have got better into their late 20s and early 30s:

Massa (28)
Heidfeld (32 next week)
Button (29)
Glock (27)
Trulli (34)

Maybe these 'semi-veterans' will have the last laugh this year. Both Trulli and Glock are doing well, Heidfeld looks more likely to score points than Kubica, Massa is doing better than Raikkonen (not for points obviously) and Button's doing OK as well :)

[555-04Q2]

I was more impressed with Schumacher's drives in 95-98, because he had an inferior car and had to fight harder to get to the top. In 2000-2004 his car was at least on par with rivals, if not better, and he could have a more controlled approach to racing. 2006 IMO Schumacher wasn't quite at his prime any more. He made more mistakes than usual and faced a driver that was a match to him. I think it was the first time ever he struggled to beat a rival in similarly performing cars over a season. Quite opposite to - say - 1995, when he won WDC in an inferior car.

But when talking about "getting better with age", I'd add Trulli into that list. ;)

We agree to disagree then :p :

On the topic of a driver that was a match for Schumi, I think Alonso was better than Schumi in 2006. Dont get me wrong, Alonso has a long way to go before he can even be mentioned in the same class as Schumi, but in 2005 and 2006 Alonso was the best driver on the F1 grid.

[DexDexter]

We agree to disagree then :p :

On the topic of a driver that was a match for Schumi, I think Alonso was better than Schumi in 2006. Dont get me wrong, Alonso has a long way to go before he can even be mentioned in the same class as Schumi, but in 2005 and 2006 Alonso was the best driver on the F1 grid.

I don't know about Alonso being the best in 2005, in 05 Kimi won as many races as he did and had more technical problems.

[Garry Walker]

So you don't agree Button is crap in an unstable car or is Button - in your opinion - is just over-rated crap, period?
button is greatly overrated and whilst he is not crap, he is nothing special. There are quite a few drivers Id pick before him every day.

[555-04Q2]

I don't know about Alonso being the best in 2005, in 05 Kimi won as many races as he did and had more technical problems.

Dont get me started on the "iceman". I never have and still dont rate him at all. I dont see what all the hype around Kimi is for. Alonso is a far better driver IMO.

[ArrowsFA1]

button is greatly overrated and whilst he is not crap, he is nothing special.
You're right. He's exceptional according to Ross Brawn:

"Jenson is exceptional. Even last year with the car we had there were races when I saw flashes of things that were special, but it's about putting it together on a consistent basis. All the guys in the team told me he was pretty special, but I wasn't lucky enough to see much of it. Now I am."
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74934

:D

[Knock-on]

Dont get me started on the "iceman". I never have and still dont rate him at all. I dont see what all the hype around Kimi is for. Alonso is a far better driver IMO.

Agree 100% with you there.

Kimi is a good driver but I have never rated him as highly as some.

I think Ferrari surfed the hype when they bought him.

[wedge]

You're right. He's exceptional according to Ross Brawn:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74934

:D


"Jenson is exceptional. Even last year with the car we had there were races when I saw flashes of things that were special, but it's about putting it together on a consistent basis. All the guys in the team told me he was pretty special, but I wasn't lucky enough to see much of it. Now I am."


button is greatly overrated and whilst he is not crap, he is nothing special. There are quite a few drivers Id pick before him every day.

Agreed. Button is only good in a car that is to his liking. Give him a tailored towards Schumi or Lewis and I think he'll struggle a bit.

[Garry Walker]

Dont get me started on the "iceman". I never have and still dont rate him at all. I dont see what all the hype around Kimi is for. Alonso is a far better driver IMO.

Kimi is IMO a much better driver than Alonso. The only difference between them is that alonso is paired with a moron, whereas Kimi has a teammate that is seriously fast.

[jens]

Hm, considering that Kimi has been mentioned here, then there are some similarities between his 2005 season and Button's 2009. Both had the fastest car and a team-mate, who for some reason struggled to get the best out of the machinery (although in the second half of 05 JPM became seriously quick).

[555-04Q2]

Kimi is IMO a much better driver than Alonso. The only difference between them is that alonso is paired with a moron, whereas Kimi has a teammate that is seriously fast.

Have you got swine flu :?: :p :

[wmcot]

I think Rubens lacks the "killer instinct" to be WDC. He's a great driver, but it seems that he would have fit in better in the "gentlemanly era of F1."

Since you've opened the topic up to other drivers, I would say the Kimi is the fastest driver when he has a very good car, while Alonso is the most complete driver since he is able to extract the best from a good or bad car.