A criticism of cloverleaf rallying

[Daniel]

An article by Chris Biewer @ www.rallye-info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com) :)

"The WRC needs recognizable events and a calendar with cornerstones, so Joe Public can grasp the show. Instead the WRC has been shrinking their events beyond recognition and they insist on event rotation, which nowadays sadly means nothing more than switching classic names as Monte Carlo, Safari, RAC for no-names as Cyprus, Jordan, Bulgaria. I have long promised an article on clover leaf vs recognizable, unique adventure challenges. Here it comes...."
http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7859



I think Chris has a point to be honest. I'd love for rallying to go back to the old days when it was like this.

[Daniel]

The whole WRC as well as its single events need to find their identities! Identities that are unique enough that it does not need much explanation to the media and their audience to see the diversity and challenge of this fantastic, spiritual sport. (- Take this sentence and explain to your neighbour clover leaf, superally and why he should watch Turkey!) A WRC season without a round in Africa is as much a crime to rallying as is a Monte Carlo without the “Knight of the long Knifes” finale and Rally Argentina without adding the high altitude Anden hairpins to fast and flowing Cordoba. And the RAC has to visit a much larger area, this country has so much to offer, this rally has so much potential to fascinate!

OK, AND HOW CAN THIS BE DONE IN THE CURRENT CLIMATE IN WHICH BUDGET IS SO IMPORTANT?

Hmm, let me drop in that I believe for the manufacturers it is not just about the expense. It is about value for money. If the show was good, everybody would understand it and want to watch it, budget saving would be far less of an issue. Just as said all along, this is not done in having a calendar and events people don’t understand, all looking the exact same and in no-name locations without a car market. Rally Cyprus is too similar to Turkey, Acropolis, Sardinia and maybe Jordan, plus Cyprus does not have a car market. Interesting in comparison that Volkswagen spent 50 Million Euros on the Dakar alone, only one event, and use this event even for selling cars outside of Argentina! And how i.e. Opel switched page filling adverts in German newspapers about their Safari successes! Events the public understand as unique adventures and challenges!

The IRC shows how it is done. Not only with a Monte Turini Night. The IRC has no clover leaf. Having named Safari as an example before, in 2007 the IRC Safari was still a too short event for a Safari, but by moving the service 150km North of Nairobi, we managed 11 Rift Valley stages in a day. When did the WRC last have 11 proper stages in a day? If out of all the Safari can do this, for other events it should be easy! For 2009 similar trick. This time we had less stages in the Rift Valley leg, but mammoth stages. The 4 longest of them totalled 200kms! The WRC norm is 6 stages a day for 120kms! Apparently the WRC wanted to be easier on the clover leaf and therefore in 2008 the Wales Rally GB could return to Sweet Lamb. Boah was I disappointed!

My annoyment is that we still have such office hours rallying with only 3 stages repeated. If you look at Wales Rally GB 2008 leg2, we come from South to Central Wales, Crychan Forest ends near Builth Wells, which I checked is some 50-60km from Sweet Lamb. It’s maybe 40km from Hafren, but I decided to locate the service in the Sweet Lamb complex was realistic and actually interesting for team guests and VIPs, so even that is catered for! With the day's service 3 x 20min located within the Sweet Lamb complex, plus doing the leg2 stages in reverse in the evening (starting from Builth Wells – Crychan back towards the South), I am absolutely convinced with this service location and a tiny bit of clever thinking, we could actually combine Rally GB 2008 legs 1 & 2 and still be home at 7 or 8pm the same day!!!!

The Wales Rally GB 2008 schedule was:

leg1
SS1 Hafren Forest (9:08)
SS2 Sweet Lamb (9:32)
SS3 Myherin Forest (9:53)
service break (near 4 hours!!!!)(OK, incl. road sections, but still a hell lot!)
SS4 Hafren Forest (13:16)
SS5 Sweet Lamb (13:40)
SS6 Myherin Forest (14:01)
SS7 Walters Arena (17:06)
SS8 Walters Arena (17:17)
finish Swansea (18:02)

leg2
SS9 Resolfen (8:18)
SS10 Halfway (9:47)
SS11 Crychan Forest (10:13)
service break (3 hours)
SS12 Resolfen (13:21)
SS13 Halfway (14:50)
SS14 Crychan Forest (15:16)
SS15 Cardiff Millenium Stadion (17:00 car soccer with VW Foxs, all VW or German cars are good for?, stage start 18:15)
finish Swansea 19:23

Bollox, my suggestion:

leg1 (approx times):
SS1 Resolfen (8:18)
SS2 Halfway (9:47)
SS3 Crychan Forest (10:13)
service in Sweet Lamb (with far less road sections)
SS4 Myherin Forest (12:10)
SS5 Hafren Forest (12:30)
SS6 Sweet Lamb (12:50)
service (20 min – in Sweet Lamb!!!!)
SS7 Myherin Forest (13:40)
SS8 Hafren Forest (14:00)
SS9 Sweet Lamb (14:20)
service (in Sweet Lamb!!!!)
SS10 Crychan Forest (16:30)
SS11 Halfway (17:00)
SS12 Resolfen (18:30)
SS13 Walters Arena (19:20)
SS14 Walters Arena (19:30)
arrival Swansea service approx 20:15

I would dump the soccer playing Volkswagens in the North Sea Channel and burn down the indoor arena and start leg2 in Kielder Forest, starting midnight!

Well, seriously, I actually have still made compromises! I could even go more radical. In my schedule I still have repeated stages and 2 near superspecials, Walters Arena. Yet, except 2km indoor rubbish (won by Loeb in 56.5sec, so we lose on less than 1 minute of competition!) I have the full 2 legs in one day and am home at 20:15! Doing so, you will realise that the gaps between stage starting times are roughly the same as in the original schedule, while for the two services between Sweet Lamb and Crychan Forest I still allow 2 hours, which should be plenty for a normal 20min service and 60km road section. If you manage to find these stages on a map, you will realise that with Resolfen-Halfway-Crychan, we are actually moving towards Sweet Lamb! That service right in Sweet Lamb is realistic I know, because this is exactly what we did on the 1994 RAC, when we had 170 starters!

Alternatively we could go for service to Devils Bridge, 10km down the road and actually even nearer to Myherin. It is such a fantastic example of what is wrong, maybe my best example because it is an area I know very well, so maybe similar could be done on most rallies, if I only knew the areas. I actually managed a leg schedule that starts exactly as leg2 starts, but only ends with Swansea service less than an hour later. But thanks to service in Sweet Lamb I have both days in one! And it is fully realistic. If I calculated too tight, we could start an hour earlier, or move the Walters Arena superspecial into the next day....

I want to be sensible and don't ask for a complete return to the old times. But really, somewhere along that route the rule makers have lost the plot. I certainly don't need 3 weeks training. I don't need ruining brand new road cars as chase cars, that have to travel round the stage on busy public roads quicker than the rally cars in the stage, creating a logistical nightmare in travelling absolutely all country with night stops 1000kms apart, although all that was great fun team effort. But what we ended up with was that service cars could not travel 150km from Cardiff to Crychan, instead dirty rally cars, potentially with wheels hanging off and leaking differentials had to travel 150km road section from Crychan to Cardiff. Where exactly is that better? Where have we saved money? All we have achieved with service cars could not come up to Crychan is that Sweet Lamb became unrealistic despite only being 50km up the road! Instead of competing, the rally cars spend their time on road sections, while the mechanics and VIPs are bored to tears back at service. Strange that!

While at it, although I have managed a lovely layout in this example, I would probably reconsider if the rally really has to be based in Cardiff or Swansea. (!!In fact this is how bad things have become, me die hard rally fan writing all this cannot tell which was the host town of Wales Rally GB 2008 - the night halts were in Swansea, the official rally signs advertise Cardiff!!) Or could we have at least one night stop elsewhere? If we try to keep costs and logistic management down in using just one night location, maybe the host town should be a little more central. Imagine a non-clover leaf RAC Rally based in Chester for example, we could actually visit Lake District and maybe Kielder as well as Wales without moving night location.

So may this be a master example of my long time complaint about modern WRC with clover leaf etc.. What I have done above, with 14 stages in a day, of course does not mean my rallies would have less than 3 days! Maybe we will have some short days with "only" 11 stages too, but I am convinced it is possible to do 3 day events like this, 35-40 stages, 500kms, memorable locations like RAC, Monte, Safari, 12 rounds calendar, and it would actually cost less than the 15-16 rounds seasons of late! Why should the above cost more? Apart from petrol and tyres for an additional 150 or so km, maybe we spend one night in a different town (hotel), and have to move the service vehicles a couple of times (do we need to transport the full lot with each team's 5 articulated lorries?), so I can't really see were in logistics, testing, etc., here each single event costs much more than it does now. The bit it does cost more is good value for money, as we have more memorable events and much more to show from each event.Stolen from Chris Biewer @ www.rallye-info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com) :)


I think Chris has a point to be honest. I'd love for rallying to go back to the old days when it was like this.

[AndyRAC]

Chris is a real enthusiast - and when he starts, he doesn't stop.
I know what he means though - it struck me on the Saturday of RallyGB - around lunch time while sitting in the car at Halfway. They were waiting to go into service, yet had completed the morning loop over an hour ago, yet the next stage wouldn't be for another 2-3 hours - what's all that about? 3 stages all in a small area, in a short space of time - then a drive back to Cardiff for service - then wait around, then another drive from Cardiff to repeat the 3 same stages. Utter madness - it might work for some events, but for others, especially the 'classics' it's just not good enough. A rethink is needed seriously, and quickly.

[muscrae]

Chris is a real enthusiast - and when he starts, he doesn't stop.

Absolutely. I always feel great fun and appretiation when reading Chris' articles.

[m4rk]

guys, couldnt have put it better myself
i work for a Dakar rally team, named after a certain flying scotsman...
all our mechanics are ex-boreham Ford Motorsport guys
80s group B & early 90s group A boys
they long for a return to the glory days
like the ones you mentioned
long live the crazy stories!

hopefully the penny drops sooner rather than latter.
and we can all go rallying again


propper rallying!















(I'm only 19 years old...geeeeeeeeez)

[J4MIE]

:up:

[BDunnell]

Chris is a real enthusiast - and when he starts, he doesn't stop.
I know what he means though - it struck me on the Saturday of RallyGB - around lunch time while sitting in the car at Halfway. They were waiting to go into service, yet had completed the morning loop over an hour ago, yet the next stage wouldn't be for another 2-3 hours - what's all that about? 3 stages all in a small area, in a short space of time - then a drive back to Cardiff for service - then wait around, then another drive from Cardiff to repeat the 3 same stages. Utter madness - it might work for some events, but for others, especially the 'classics' it's just not good enough. A rethink is needed seriously, and quickly.

It must — MUST — be abundantly clear to the powers-that-be that the format of current WRC events simply has not worked in terms of generating extra interest and coverage. There is no other conclusion that could be reached by a sane person. If they cannot see this, there isn't much hope.

[RallyCat909]

I find it odd that the WRC has gone with this crappy formula trying to be friendly to television and most of the programming is a shadow of what I personally consider lackluster compared to what was aired on Speed Channel when Mark James, Jeremy Hart and those guys were commentating.

Not too mention just getting rid of the signature stages that fans came to love.

I daresay that rallying needs a few big-mouthed [b]personalities[b]. Some headlines.....most people that dont know about the sport can't find such a figure to latch onto, I dont hate on Loeb, he's just out there crankin out the stage times, but it was fun to watch a Burns, Mcrae, or Gronholm make a remark in the heat of the moment.

Gah, I dunno, I still think there needs to be a RWD class in WRC.

[cosmicpanda]

I don't even think that a cloverleaf format is 'real' rallying. I like the idea of point-to-point events, or at the least, a long loop (ie. Monaco - Valence - Monaco).

[Jake Stephens]

Step One: Bring back interesting commentary a la Jeremy Hart. Step Two: Get rid of Superally.

[Donney]

Bring simpler, slower cars and get rid of the safety issues related to the excessive speed modern cars have, then bring back classic stages (and don't cut them down), and finally proper rallys and not glorified rallysprints.

Simple but we've been saying that for ages and no one has ever listened, and if they have they must still be laughing at us.

[Rallyper]

The formula with one service in central of the rally only brought bigger and bigger trailers (and more expensive) just to be static at one place.

The old form made it impossible to use those big ones. So back to the old form af rallying with at least 3-4 different serviceplaces. And then the GT3 as a complement. :) :)

[BDunnell]

But let's not get rid of a talent like Loeb unless he genuinely decides — misguidedly, in my view — that anything other than the current breed of cars isn't for him. I re-read an interview with Hannu Mikkola recently in which he said that the challenge now isn't so much driving WRC cars but to find the absolute limit in WRC cars and do it safely. Loeb is clearly far better at this than anyone, and deserves great respect accordingly, as dull as the spectacle has become.

[Hartusvuori]

Juha Kankkunen had some visions on how should it be made in his 50th birthday interview for Finnish motorsports monthly Vauhdin Maailma (VM).

Most notable he was sure that even six rounds would be enough or six to eight rounds. That could mean (if the budgets are kept on the level they are now) that teams could run two or three times as many cars as they do now. More seats means more chances for up and coming talents. Smaller calendar could also interest more manufactures, perhaps.

Also - if there would be lesser amount of rounds in the calendar teams could prepare and recce for single race for two weeks or so - similar as were done in the past. That would also give better chances to learn the route for new drivers.

I don't have the article in front of me, so I don't quote more, but there are some other ideas as well. Generally, Juha does make a point. He also mentioned that he hasn't drove his last NORF yet, so I hope he'll find budget for this year's NORF or soon in the coming years,

Would you be ready for 6-8 rounds championships? And in a dream universe - Monte, Sweden, Corsica, Argentina, Finland, GB - perhaps Australia and Portugal as well. Rrrright.

[Iskald]

The formula with one service in central of the rally only brought bigger and bigger trailers (and more expensive) just to be static at one place.

The old form made it impossible to use those big ones. So back to the old form af rallying with at least 3-4 different serviceplaces. And then the GT3 as a complement. :) :)

I think it was 1991 when I was part of a group of journalists invited by Ford to Rally Finland (Thousand Lakes). At that time there was of course no centralized servicing. I remember John Taylor explaining the service format to us and showing all the different service vehicles needed for the rally. True, they didn`t have any semitrailers in those days, but something like 8 midsize service lorries, combined with 8 Mitsubishi Pajeros and a number of "chase cars" operating as mobile service units after more or less each stage of the rally. The whole service apparatus, and the number of mechanics and personell involved was much, much bigger than it is today. And it cost huge amounts of money!

So just bring back the "good old days" - and we will experience that costs actually prohibits any rally driving on world championship level at all...

[DonJippo]

Most notable he was sure that even six rounds would be enough or six to eight rounds.

I've seen many times drivers wanting to have less events in the name of cost cuts, funnily though never seen anyone willing to cut their own salary same time to have even more cost cuts as there would be less events ...

[AndyRAC]

I think it was 1991 when I was part of a group of journalists invited by Ford to Rally Finland (Thousand Lakes). At that time there was of course no centralized servicing. I remember John Taylor explaining the service format to us and showing all the different service vehicles needed for the rally. True, they didn`t have any semitrailers in those days, but something like 8 midsize service lorries, combined with 8 Mitsubishi Pajeros and a number of "chase cars" operating as mobile service units after more or less each stage of the rally. The whole service apparatus, and the number of mechanics and personell involved was much, much bigger than it is today. And it cost huge amounts of money!

So just bring back the "good old days" - and we will experience that costs actually prohibits any rally driving on world championship level at all...

I would think that wouldn't happen - there would have to be a limit on the number of mechanics and vans/trucks. We can't go back to those days, however, what we have now is not working - so something in the middle.
As for Juha's idea of 6-8 Rallies - I can't see that happening. I'd say 10 is the absolute minimum, but I know were he is coming from.

[Iskald]

I would think that wouldn't happen - there would have to be a limit on the number of mechanics and vans/trucks. We can't go back to those days, however, what we have now is not working - so something in the middle.
As for Juha's idea of 6-8 Rallies - I can't see that happening. I'd say 10 is the absolute minimum, but I know were he is coming from.


Of course, it will never happen. But the arguments in this thread gives an impression that many want rallying back to the "stone ages", with traditional events spanning more days, longer distances and extended geography. Which are all going to raise costs hugely. Rally GB (RAC Rally) used to be four days continously rallying through most of England and Wales. It was a real adventure for those taking part, but it simply isn`t possible to run such events any longer. And therefore ìt won`t happen.

There are traditionalists in all sports. Cross country skiing is a big sport in my country. There are still many who can`t stomach a 50 km event run in loops of 7,5 km and with all skiers starting together. In the "good all days", the skiers just disappeared into the forest for a 25 km loop and was on their own for nearly 90 minutes before they came back. Sure, that was better than seeing the skiers into a stadium for every 20 minutes....

This is modern days rallying, guys, just accept it. Cloverleaf is not that bad!

[BDunnell]

Of course, it will never happen. But the arguments in this thread gives an impression that many want rallying back to the "stone ages", with traditional events spanning more days, longer distances and extended geography. Which are all going to raise costs hugely. Rally GB (RAC Rally) used to be four days continously rallying through most of England and Wales. It was a real adventure for those taking part, but it simply isn`t possible to run such events any longer. And therefore ìt won`t happen.

There are traditionalists in all sports. Cross country skiing is a big sport in my country. There are still many who can`t stomach a 50 km event run in loops of 7,5 km and with all skiers starting together. In the "good all days", the skiers just disappeared into the forest for a 25 km loop and was on their own for nearly 90 minutes before they came back. Sure, that was better than seeing the skiers into a stadium for every 20 minutes....

This is modern days rallying, guys, just accept it. Cloverleaf is not that bad!

In what sense has the cloverleaf format brought any of the hoped-for benefits in terms of media (especially TV) coverage and increased public interest?

[I am evil Homer]

I've seen many times drivers wanting to have less events in the name of cost cuts, funnily though never seen anyone willing to cut their own salary same time to have even more cost cuts as there would be less events ...

Surely that's because there's only 5 guys actually being paid to drive the cars and I doubt they're earning anything close to F1 money. For the amount of risk they take they shouldn't have to take a pay cut to cover the FIAs incompetency!

[AndyRAC]

Of course, it will never happen. But the arguments in this thread gives an impression that many want rallying back to the "stone ages", with traditional events spanning more days, longer distances and extended geography. Which are all going to raise costs hugely. Rally GB (RAC Rally) used to be four days continously rallying through most of England and Wales. It was a real adventure for those taking part, but it simply isn`t possible to run such events any longer. And therefore ìt won`t happen.

There are traditionalists in all sports. Cross country skiing is a big sport in my country. There are still many who can`t stomach a 50 km event run in loops of 7,5 km and with all skiers starting together. In the "good all days", the skiers just disappeared into the forest for a 25 km loop and was on their own for nearly 90 minutes before they came back. Sure, that was better than seeing the skiers into a stadium for every 20 minutes....

This is modern days rallying, guys, just accept it. Cloverleaf is not that bad!

Not sure I agree with that. Cloverleaf is okay for some events, but not for all. Every event should be different; 2,3,4,5 day events - some 250 miles, others 300, 350, 400. What we need is some variety. This isn't F1 - trying to make it like F1 has ruined the sport.

[BDunnell]

Cloverleaf is okay for some events, but not for all. Every event should be different; 2,3,4,5 day events - some 250 miles, others 300, 350, 400. What we need is some variety.

I agree completely.

[Iskald]

In what sense has the cloverleaf format brought any of the hoped-for benefits in terms of media (especially TV) coverage and increased public interest?

Forget 2009 specifically. Rallying has always had its ups and down. Right now it is down, but give it a year or two.

I know one thing for sure, (regardless of how we rate the TV-broadcasts in quality, enterntainment value etc.), rallying and especially WRC is being shown on television all around the world both more often and in much larger quantities than it was some years ago. Note that I am now referring to the world, not just Great Britain (where I understand you are used to good coverage since many years ago). I am also fully aware that coverage and broadcasts should have the potential to be even better, but this is in my understanding of the matter first and foremost a question about costs and the fact that rallying is a very costly sport to produce properly (as a TV-producer myself I know one or two things about that...)

I don`t know the facts about general public interest, except for what I have observed myself during WRC-events from 1981 and up to today. Longer (in duration) and bigger (in geography) events 20 years ago could possibly have generated more spectators that the WRC-events of today, but I don`t think so. There were so many stages in each rally before, and spectators were scattered over a much bigger area during a day af rallying. My first WRC-rally was Sweden in 1981, and it was a delight to follow as we had many more stages to chose from. Each stage was much less crowded than it is today. For the dedicated followers of rallying, this situation was of course much better than it is today. But then we are talking the proper fans, not the general public.

[BDunnell]

Forget 2009 specifically. Rallying has always had its ups and down. Right now it is down, but give it a year or two.

I wasn't referring to 2009 specifically.



I know one thing for sure, (regardless of how we rate the TV-broadcasts in quality, enterntainment value etc.), rallying and especially WRC is being shown on television all around the world both more often and in much larger quantities than it was some years ago. Note that I am now referring to the world, not just Great Britain (where I understand you are used to good coverage since many years ago). I am also fully aware that coverage and broadcasts should have the potential to be even better, but this is in my understanding of the matter first and foremost a question about costs and the fact that rallying is a very costly sport to produce properly (as a TV-producer myself I know one or two things about that...)

I don`t know the facts about general public interest, except for what I have observed myself during WRC-events from 1981 and up to today. Longer (in duration) and bigger (in geography) events 20 years ago could possibly have generated more spectators that the WRC-events of today, but I don`t think so. There were so many stages in each rally before, and spectators were scattered over a much bigger area during a day af rallying. My first WRC-rally was Sweden in 1981, and it was a delight to follow as we had many more stages to chose from. Each stage was much less crowded than it is today. For the dedicated followers of rallying, this situation was of course much better than it is today. But then we are talking the proper fans, not the general public.

My observation is that the British round of the championship today generates far less general interest, far less media coverage and doesn't attract as many spectators as it used to. In my opinion, this isn't solely down to there being no front-running British drivers any more. It has happened since the event stopped being a truly national affair in terms of its geographical coverage.

[Iskald]

My observation is that the British round of the championship today generates far less general interest, far less media coverage and doesn't attract as many spectators as it used to. In my opinion, this isn't solely down to there being no front-running British drivers any more. It has happened since the event stopped being a truly national affair in terms of its geographical coverage.

I believe you are right, but I don`t think you can draw those conclusions when it comes to some of the other traditional events. The old RAC Rally was a very special event in peoples minds, and modern cloverleaf format hasn`t suited or given any benefits to your rally. That is true. But when you look at the overall picture, with new countries coming into the WRC, generating much bigger interest in lots of countries and regions where rallying before was a small national affair (for instance Norway, Ireland, Jordan, Poland etc...), maybe the global public interest when it comes to WRC-rallying actually has risen.

[OldF]

A rally with a wider geographic area would attract more spectators because people who’s not dedicated fans would go and watch (maybe) if they could reach the stages by 50-100 km driving instead of 200-300 km as it is today. Only true rally fans are ready to drive several hundreds of kilometres to go to a rally. Also people could say: “the rally is coming to our village/town”.

For the organizer a wider geographic area could be a problem. For example at NORF 2007 the organizer had difficulties to find enough volunteers to act as safety crews at Ouninpohja.

So I would say that it’s not possible to return to the good old days but there should indeed be more diversity than there are today.

[BDunnell]

I believe you are right, but I don`t think you can draw those conclusions when it comes to some of the other traditional events. The old RAC Rally was a very special event in peoples minds, and modern cloverleaf format hasn`t suited or given any benefits to your rally. That is true. But when you look at the overall picture, with new countries coming into the WRC, generating much bigger interest in lots of countries and regions where rallying before was a small national affair (for instance Norway, Ireland, Jordan, Poland etc...), maybe the global public interest when it comes to WRC-rallying actually has risen.

The conclusion I draw from that is that a variety of events - some long, some short - would be by far the best mix.

[Hartusvuori]

For the organizer a wider geographic area could be a problem. For example at NORF 2007 the organizer had difficulties to find enough volunteers to act as safety crews at Ouninpohja.

And that was mostly because there were six other special stages within radius of - say - 60 kms (from Juupajoki to Leustu) the same day. There were volunteers coming from other areas of Finland also, driving 500+ kms overnight just to volunteer for a rally crowd for almost no pay.

For this year, the solution was no Ouninpohja which is a loss to the sport.

[DonJippo]

For this year, the solution was no Ouninpohja which is a loss to the sport.

To my knowledge there are other reasons for this than lack of marshals.

[Rallyper]

However I think one solution mentioned above with about 8-10 rallies every year (Monte, Sweden, Norway, Portugal, Argentina, Greece, NZ, Aussi, GB)and two more which will vary. How about that? :rolleyes:

I think NORF this year will be the last real rally fom many years to come, especially if Juha will participate. We will talk about this last real rally in the future. Remember I said it first! :cool: ;)

[Iskald]

The conclusion I draw from that is that a variety of events - some long, some short - would be by far the best mix.

OK, but who would you get to organise and run the "long" events? You don`t seriously think that for instance RAC MSA would even think of going back to staging an event running stages in Wales, Grizedale (Lake District), Kielder and Scottish Borders nowadays? That was the classic RAC Rally 20 years ago, but today it just isn`t realistic, is it - for a number of reasons. I do agree we have lost something that was great, but it just can`t be done anymore.

[Chris_B]

Although good points raised by Iskald, some counter points

1) As for better media and TV, in Germany we never ever had less WRC on terrestrial TV or in newspapers than today or the last few years! That is despite having had a German round recently! Similar I hear from friends in France and Belgium. And hasn't Yle of the rally nation N°1 (Finland) stopped WRC completely? Plus UK that is already half of Europe where WRC media has gone down! Plus all of Australia it seems, plus I hear similar complaints from USA. Maybe it has gone up in Cyprus and Fiji Islands.

2) The article specifically says that it does NOT want a return to chase cars or anything too much to the stone age extreme. A limit to service barges and mechanics is included in the thought and why should this not be workable. In contrary what is found in central service today I doubt this is cheaper than the old setup, nor adds anything to the show. The whole point is about the inefficiency of clover leaf. If rally cars are safe enough to travel 150kms road sections after action, they should be save enough for more stage action after a limited service. The rally cars should spend their time on stages, not on road sections for many hours every leg! The example shown in the article only shows stages that are actually used in Wales Rally GB 2008. This example intends to get one thinking towards a compromise between the extremes – and if cleverly done, as it is food for thought this compromise can give us a lot more marketable action without any big cost increase!

3) As for running stages over a larger geographical area, again the artical specficially says it does not need to be rallies with different night halts 1000s of kms apart (though it suggests a more central host town or maybe one different night halt. From Cardiff you have not many directions you can travel, Chester for example you could hold a leg in Englnad and even Lake District or Kielder would not be further away than i.e. Rift Valley for the recent Safari or Valence for IRC Monte Carlo). However I know a number of motor clubs in UK that have withdrawn their support to the “RAC” because they were fed up travelling to Wales as volunteers, when they would have loved to carry on running the stages more local to them. Other events actually do go that more widespread route in their WRC off-year.

4) If Iskald’s points are so correct, how does he explain the public, TV and manufacturer interest in the Dakar?

If I don’t reply any further here, even (or because?) with this subject being straight linked to my own article, I expect the libellous forum owners to ban and/or to abuse me again...

[Daniel]

Nice to see you back on the forums Chris. Nothing wrong with that post at all in my eyes :)

[DonJippo]

And hasn't Yle of the rally nation N°1 (Finland) stopped WRC completely?

Yes because other nation wide TV station, MTV3 has the rights now, YLE is still the NORF rally radio broadcaster and they do show WRC in their sport news.

[Iskald]

Although good points raised by Iskald, some counter points



3) As for running stages over a larger geographical area, again the artical specficially says it does not need to be rallies with different night halts 1000s of kms apart (though it suggests a more central host town or maybe one different night halt. From Cardiff you have not many directions you can travel, Chester for example you could hold a leg in Englnad and even Lake District or Kielder would not be further away than i.e. Rift Valley for the recent Safari or Valence for IRC Monte Carlo). However I know a number of motor clubs in UK that have withdrawn their support to the “RAC” because they were fed up travelling to Wales as volunteers, when they would have loved to carry on running the stages more local to them. Other events actually do go that more widespread route in their WRC off-year.

4) If Iskald’s points are so correct, how does he explain the public, TV and manufacturer interest in the Dakar?

...

3. I have actually never understood the reason for Rally GB running in Wales exclusively, but it must have something to do with money...? I agree with you that Chester would be perfect, with possibilities to run stages in different regions both in England and Wales. But it could still function as a cloverleaf rally, couldn`t it? Maybe with one remote service every day, as it is allowed in the WRC now. So it isn`t neccessary the format that is wrong, is it?

4. Dakar has it`s own position as an adventure, more than a rally (rallyraid). And how strong is exactly manufacturers interest in the Dakar?

I do agree with you in many of your other arguments, but we must also be realistic and accept that the traditional events won`t come back in exactly the formats of old days. Those days are long gone, but some adaption to a more flexible way of organising rallies, would possibly serve the sport better than the current situation.

[Nenukknak]

An article by Chris Biewer @ www.rallye-info.com (http://www.rallye-info.com) :)

"The WRC needs recognizable events and a calendar with cornerstones, so Joe Public can grasp the show. Instead the WRC has been shrinking their events beyond recognition and they insist on event rotation, which nowadays sadly means nothing more than switching classic names as Monte Carlo, Safari, RAC for no-names as Cyprus, Jordan, Bulgaria. I have long promised an article on clover leaf vs recognizable, unique adventure challenges. Here it comes...."
http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7859



I think Chris has a point to be honest. I'd love for rallying to go back to the old days when it was like this.

Are u freaking kiddin' me?!? Begs me to wonder if A) Chris is your current lover
or B) What it is you need from Chris?

[mjh]

Although good points raised by Iskald, some counter points

1) As for better media and TV, in Germany we never ever had less WRC on terrestrial TV or in newspapers than today or the last few years! <snip> Plus UK that is already half of Europe where WRC media has gone down! Plus all of Australia it seems.....

Er.... WRC is shown on terrestrial TV in Australia as a highlights show (on SBS, on the sunday following the event) and on Foxtel pay-tv during the event.
Which is better coverage than the domestic series which is now not on 'regular' terrestrial TV and is only on freeview several weeks after the event :(

One point people espousing abandoning the cloverleaf system miss, is the approvals process every km of rally has to go through these days, and the increased difficulty as society becomes increasingly unhelpful/hostile to anything that might disturb their rural idyll. Look at the hassle Rally Australia is having already.... environmental reports, development applications, greenie complaints. Long rallies across multiple authority jurisdictions and through an increased number of communities would only make this worse.

[Lousada]

Yes tv coverage has increased in absolute numbers. But how much does this have to do with the globalization and the explosion of tv networks the past 20 years? The only people who watch rally now are the fans. Casual followers are not watching and not caring.
On top of that, national rally championships (at least around where I live) are almost completely vanished from the mainstream media. The rallysport as a whole is suffering from the obsession with the WRC in my opinion.


One point people espousing abandoning the cloverleaf system miss, is the approvals process every km of rally has to go through these days, and the increased difficulty as society becomes increasingly unhelpful/hostile to anything that might disturb their rural idyll. Look at the hassle Rally Australia is having already.... environmental reports, development applications, greenie complaints. Long rallies across multiple authority jurisdictions and through an increased number of communities would only make this worse.

I would assume that widening the possible area of the rallies would make it easier to find friendly communities and not more difficult?

[BDunnell]

Yes tv coverage has increased in absolute numbers. But how much does this have to do with the globalization and the explosion of tv networks the past 20 years?

A lot, I'm sure.



I would assume that widening the possible area of the rallies would make it easier to find friendly communities and not more difficult?

I'm afraid I do think mjh had a point here. The regulations that particularly affect rallying would tend to be imposed on a national basis, I should think. I would certainly imagine this is the case in the UK.

[Daniel]

Are u freaking kiddin' me?!? Begs me to wonder if A) Chris is your current lover
or B) What it is you need from Chris?

What seems to be your problem? Did Chris turn you down or something in the past?

What's so wrong about posting a link to someone's work? I've quite agreed with some of the stuff BDunnell has posted in the past but you don't see people asking me if he's my boyfriend :laugh: Are you jealous of me or something? :dozey:

[Lousada]

A lot, I'm sure.
Yes, what I meant was that the increase in tv-numbers is not because of the qualities of the promotor and the changes they urged for, but because the new tvnetworks need to broadcast something.


I'm afraid I do think mjh had a point here. The regulations that particularly affect rallying would tend to be imposed on a national basis, I should think. I would certainly imagine this is the case in the UK.

I still don't understand what you two are saying? With a cloverleaf-rally it means that all the stages have to be close to the rally-HQ. If the rally format is let free then organisers could find stages in a much wider area.
For example, the Rally GB organisers could do the first day in North Wales, the second day around Chester, and the third day somewhere further east. This way the costs are split over three local authorities, spectators are better spread and the nuisance for local people is minimal. I am convinced local goverments would be more willing to comply if the WRC only came by for one stage not repeated and then quickly wrapped everything up to go to the next stage somewhere else.
A Rally-HQ in the cloverleaf format needs a lot of infrastructure. Since there are only three stages per day that are repeated, all the specatators go to these stages so the roads need to be equipped for that. All the spectators, officials, press and teams need to stay for three days around rally-hq so a lot of hotels and foodshops are needed. Since the rally is often the time when the area is most visited, there is overcapacity on all the other days of the year, which would make the rally a bad investment.
I think you can compare this a little bit with the Tour de France. Some towns want to be a start or finish place and make the investments for that. While others are more happy just to have the circus pass through and organise some celebrations for locals and other spectators.

[BDunnell]

I still don't understand what you two are saying? With a cloverleaf-rally it means that all the stages have to be close to the rally-HQ. If the rally format is let free then organisers could find stages in a much wider area.
For example, the Rally GB organisers could do the first day in North Wales, the second day around Chester, and the third day somewhere further east. This way the costs are split over three local authorities, spectators are better spread and the nuisance for local people is minimal. I am convinced local goverments would be more willing to comply if the WRC only came by for one stage not repeated and then quickly wrapped everything up to go to the next stage somewhere else.
A Rally-HQ in the cloverleaf format needs a lot of infrastructure. Since there are only three stages per day that are repeated, all the specatators go to these stages so the roads need to be equipped for that. All the spectators, officials, press and teams need to stay for three days around rally-hq so a lot of hotels and foodshops are needed. Since the rally is often the time when the area is most visited, there is overcapacity on all the other days of the year, which would make the rally a bad investment.
I think you can compare this a little bit with the Tour de France. Some towns want to be a start or finish place and make the investments for that. While others are more happy just to have the circus pass through and organise some celebrations for locals and other spectators.

Really, someone more knowledgeable than I should clarify this, but I was under the impression that the British Forestry Commission is something of a stumbling block to forest rallying in big parts of the UK, no matter what local areas might wish to do. In other countries where government is less centralised, it might well be less of a problem.

I do take your general point, certainly.

[Chris_B]

But other events as Roger Albert Clark don't seem to have problems with Forestry Commission and marshalls?

And the freedome with remote service does not seem to be applied proper. Rally Argentina today (leg2) delivered yet another perfect example. They are today in a different area. There is a 140km, over 2hrs road section to the first stage of the loop. Sending a couple of Boxer or Transit vans could have meant we can include a few more stages on the way up there, while we get rid of the 4hrs(!) for the sake of only a 20min service mid day break as well!

[BDunnell]

But other events as Roger Albert Clark don't seem to have problems with Forestry Commission and marshalls?

I was definitely under the impression that it was a problem in Yorkshire. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come and clarify this.

[AndyRAC]

I was definitely under the impression that it was a problem in Yorkshire. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable can come and clarify this.

Dalby I think - only the Trackrod is able to use Dalby - though I stand to be corrected. They make more money from Leisure activities, e;g Mountain bikers, walkers, etc Which I'm not convinced about.

[Chris_B]

Even if we have some sorts of remote service already, something goes wrong with it. After my Argentina example above, I checked the next event and it seems I find an example first look at every rally there is.

http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/2009/pdf/table_1.pdf

http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/2009/pdf/map_1.pdf

So do I see this right. 3 stages run twice, which excuse me, but I think is a bit slim for a day’s rallying in the series identifying the best driver and the best car in the WORLD. Between the 2 loops, after only 3 stages, we have a 4hours lunch break!

Now watch this, there is actually a remote refuel point near the stages! After SS3 refuel, then a 65km road section back to service, then a 65km road section back to the very same refuel point!

130km of road driving and we even have to fill up the cars extra to last this sightseeing tour! And 65km each way is not that much compared to other events.

Sorry, even if some think some of us are too much stuck to the old times, I don’t think I have gone completely gaga complaining about just this in my article.

If service staff goes there for 2! Refuels anyway, you can’t tell me we can’t avoid a 3hours road drive for the sake of a 20min service and fill the 3hrs gap with action instead!

[Rallyper]

Even if we have some sorts of remote service already, something goes wrong with it. After my Argentina example above, I checked the next event and it seems I find an example first look at every rally there is.

http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/2009/pdf/table_1.pdf

http://www.rallyitaliasardegna.com/2009/pdf/map_1.pdf

So do I see this right. 3 stages run twice, which excuse me, but I think is a bit slim for a day’s rallying in the series identifying the best driver and the best car in the WORLD. Between the 2 loops, after only 3 stages, we have a 4hours lunch break!

Now watch this, there is actually a remote refuel point near the stages! After SS3 refuel, then a 65km road section back to service, then a 65km road section back to the very same refuel point!

130km of road driving and we even have to fill up the cars extra to last this sightseeing tour! And 65km each way is not that much compared to other events.

Sorry, even if some think some of us are too much stuck to the old times, I don’t think I have gone completely gaga complaining about just this in my article.

If service staff goes there for 2! Refuels anyway, you can’t tell me we can’t avoid a 3hours road drive for the sake of a 20min service and fill the 3hrs gap with action instead!

You have my vote! :D

[Hartusvuori]

If service staff goes there for 2! Refuels anyway, you can’t tell me we can’t avoid a 3hours road drive for the sake of a 20min service and fill the 3hrs gap with action instead!

There are no service staff (if you mean mechanics et al. by that) at the refuel points. Other than that - I totally hear your concern.

Remember Rally Norway with three days almost equal in lenght - and it was total fight until the last corner. Even if there aren't as many drivers left on Day 3 (though we have superrally) as there are in the beginning, Day 3 should have more 100 kms in competetive lenght.

[cosmicpanda]

Though it must be said that a short day three will quell tactics on day two.

[Iskald]

There are no service staff (if you mean mechanics et al. by that) at the refuel points. Other than that - I totally hear your concern.

Remember Rally Norway with three days almost equal in lenght - and it was total fight until the last corner. Even if there aren't as many drivers left on Day 3 (though we have superrally) as there are in the beginning, Day 3 should have more 100 kms in competetive lenght.

Rally Norway was actually an example of how to make cloverleaf rallying function quite well. As you said, three days with nearly equal stage length. Actually sunday was the longest with 128 km SS. On the friday, when the stages were farthest away from Hamar (base), they used the remote service in Kongsvinger to make that day a tough eight stage in a day loop, without returning to and from service with long road sections. During saturday and sunday the distance from Hamar was never more than 50 kms, which meant acceptable road sections (in length and time) to get to and from services.

So it is actually possible to make cloverleaf rallying work. It is allowed to use remote service, and it is allowed to make a proper day of rallying on the sunday.

[Chris_B]

Then they should use this remote service proper, as by my examples before. A 4 hours lunch break for road sections is an utter joke. If you see my article, I show an example in which I actually managed to include every stage of 2 days into 1 day and the day did not take longer! This should also allow us to include more classic stages, which is important for the WRC and its events.

You call 8 stages a day a tough day? 8 stages should be the absolute minimum!

But other than that you all are right with the Rally Norway example. I don't think however Rally Norway was more interesting because of clover leaf. It was more interesting for exactly as you said having a proper last day's rallying! And that is in fact part of what I tried to bring across with the article. If the last day is 50km, dragging like crazy for long road sections, last stage a 1km superspecial, of course after another 2hours break for long road sections after non-classic mini stages, well then don't be surprised if last days are boring as hell! If I remember right the last stage of Rally Norway was the longest of the whole event, now that is what I call a finale!

That all is in fact what I tried to indicate as food for thought with my article. Not being silly with chase cars and all. But I feel there is too much tootling around on public roads and too much money invested in the service park. We could actually have a larger area despite less road sections and more action rather than tootling. My food for thought came from my believe - and in Rally GB 2008 delivering a surprising example proving it is realistic - that from what we have now it does not actually take that much to make the show better, a lot better! Why stop at 350km. Why not 500 or 600 (maybe 600 is too much for 3 days, but the article was meant to be food for thought), but impose limits to days and service vehicles and staff, as we partly have already. With only little adjustment and some clever thinking we could have last days with classic stages, 8 or 10 of them, 150kms at least. Where have we saved money in letting WRCars do 200-300kms road sections for a 20min service instead of sending Transit and Boxer vans up the country? Take the emphasis away from long road sections and expensive service park. I don't think financially it makes a difference, organisationally it maybe makes a difference, but not a miracle I believe. The only big difference will be a last day with 8 stages including classics rather than 2 10km stages run twice plus a superspecial. This in turn will provide for more show, more action down to the last km, which means more marketing potential which more than makes up for the little extra cost and effort.

Not to forget, this way ralllies could include more of their classic stages, but also rallies should be vastly different from one another, like night stages. The IRC of course is only 2 days mostly, but still, if the IRC, which is fairly budget orientated, can do such exclusive and excited rally day schedules, why can't the WRC?

[Chris_B]

Add on to my own post, but then I think I leave you in peace here. Just so you don't misunderstand my article for replies that haven't read the linked article...

"but also rallies should be vastly different from one another, like night stages." Could have expressed myself better. I find one of the biggest problems of WRC today is that public and media don't find corner stones in WRC which serve to identify and recognize the challenge, adventure of WRC and single events. There should be night stages, an African round, and events as Argentine, RAC, they must have recognizeable classic stages, and there is a way of including these further away stages without changing too much and without much additional cost.

Just another example picked from my previous post, for whatever reason we have these 4 hours lunch breaks, do you really believe a Transit van is more expensive in fuel and tyres and less save than a WRCar full of mud, oil leaking, wheels hanging off, for the 200-300kms road sections?

[Iskald]

You call 8 stages a day a tough day? 8 stages should be the absolute minimum!

But other than that you all are right with the Rally Norway example. I don't think however Rally Norway was more interesting because of clover leaf. It was more interesting for exactly as you said having a proper last day's rallying!

If I remember right the last stage of Rally Norway was the longest of the whole event, now that is what I call a finale!



Not to forget, this way ralllies could include more of their classic stages, but also rallies should be vastly different from one another, like night stages. The IRC of course is only 2 days mostly, but still, if the IRC, which is fairly budget orientated, can do such exclusive and excited rally day schedules, why can't the WRC?

I thought it was quite tough, anyway, but then I`m an old geezer...

I didn`t write that Rally Norway was more interesting because of cloverleaf. I said that Rally Norway was an example that cloverleaf rallying actually could function quite well. See the difference...?

The last stage of Rally Norway was not the longest. That was in 2007 when they finished with a 42 km "monster". This year the longest stage was third to last, with 30 kms. The last stage was 19 km.

I think we have to accept that centralized servicing has come to stay, with the demand for a commercially viable service area, to entertain sponsors, VIPs, other guests and spectators. The main problem is that it is very often located too far away from the rally action, because of the demands for a proper infrastructure around it. But in a modern world - and as in most other sports - there will be conflicts between the commercial side and the pure sporting preferences. I also think we have to accept that WRC-rallies will not go back to a format with 500-600 km stages any more. It`s just too expensive and personell/marshal-demanding with safety regulations being much stricter than it was only 10 to 15 years ago.