Vauxhall pull out!!

[ATF]

Vauxhall will pull out of the British Touring Car Championship at the end of this season.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74519

[christophulus]

A real shame but not surprising. With no other manufacturers wanting to join the series what's the point of them going on?

BTCC needs to get some manufacturers on board with works teams fairly soon. Independents are doing a great job but a field of BMWs will get boring sooner rather than later.

[AndySpeed]

This is a real shame but as the Press Release says it was influenced by no other manufacturers competing and in that respect I'm not too surprised.

I'd say at the moment the BTCC needs car builders more than manufacturers. There aren't enough S2000 touring cars being built without the world market for them turning every championship into a copy of the world series.

[Daniel]

Excellent. Just like the WRC I think the BTCC needs to rock bottom before it can be great again

[AndyRAC]

Not a surprise, what with GM in a mess, and no other rival Manufacturers - I'm surprised they have continued this year.

[VX_Rules]

No surprise and a great shame. Ive got to say the BTCC is not as good as it used to be, I'm swaying much more towards F1 now.

[AndySpeed]

No surprise and a great shame. Ive got to say the BTCC is not as good as it used to be, I'm swaying much more towards F1 now.

If you're a real fan of the BTCC, and what it stands for, then F1 can never really be a replacement.

[Daniel]

That's a load of rubbish Andy

[Charlie]

So they'll be no Manufacters in 2010. That's a stark contrast with the 90's.

On Crash Gow seems to only blame the Finacial climate not the fact that their are no other manufactures.

[LiamM]

Now hang on a second, saying that there is no manufacturers for next year is a little premature.

We know that Volvo is rather interested in entering for a start

[Mark]

Personally I'd rather see the BTCC with no manufacturers than one.

[BDunnell]

That's a load of rubbish Andy

I don't agree with you, full stop.

[Alfa Fan]

What this does mean is Giovanardi will probabily move on next year. I suspect Neal will end up back at Dynamics. Tough luck for Andy Jordan though just moving up to a works team and then this happens.

[VX_Rules]

Right, so I can enjoy motorsport as a whole, but If I wish to class myself as a BTCC fan, I must not ever consider F1 to be better? :O Yes SIR!

[Chris2k6]

I wonder if anyone will take on the Vectra's? Jordan was gona race one this year before he joined VXR

Gutted about Vauxhall pulling out, hopefully we will see them back in a couple of years time though

[AndySpeed]

I can see Triple Eight Race Engineering wanting to keep their good ties with Vauxhall in and wouldn't be surprised if they kept the competitive Vauxhall presence afloat by running as independents next year - provided they can find a suitable and large enough sponsor of course.

Then if things improve for GM and Vauxhall re-enter, as Alan has hinted, they could re-associate with Vauxhall having not committed to any other brand of car manufacturer.

Pure off-the-top-of-my-head prediction there.

And Daniel - shush.

[Allyc85]

Really gutted to see them go but I cant blame them tbh. Hopefully they will sell all the vectras they have built to privatreers so we still have a S2000 Vauxhall presence.

Stil, either way. it wont stop me watching and enjoying the BTCC :)

[wedge]

If you're a real fan of the BTCC, and what it stands for, then F1 can never really be a replacement.

BTCC = glorified club racing?

As long as there's a decent range of cars and a good standard of drivers then I'll continue to watch it

[Brown, Jon Brow]

:down:

[mattie007]

Maybe this gives room for a Chevvy works team?
Perhaps theres more to the RML/Plato team than meets the eye?

Or is it a years break while they develop the Insignia VXR?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Real shame, really hope Volvo and BMW enter next season.
Maybe this gives room for a Chevvy works team?
Perhaps theres more to the RML/Plato team than meets the eye?

The btcc is dead in terms of manufacturers now.

[Captain VXR]

whhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?
Not good news ;(

[VkmSpouge]

A real shame to lose Vauxhall but with the global economic climate in such a bad state and the car market crashed like John George at Brands last year, I guess it is no real surprise. At least Triple Eight have got plenty of warning, I hope they can continue in 2010. Still it isn't the end of the world there are plenty of good independents teams in the championship now.

[LiamM]

They haven't ruled out a complete withdrawal, I suppose 888 could still run as an independent team with sponsorship from GMAC/Masterfit or another GM arm allowing them to benefit from involvement in the series at a lower cost.

[tisme]

Vauxhall will pull out of the British Touring Car Championship at the end of this season.

This is Classic.............. http://www.btcc.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7729

[tdb]

I can see Triple Eight Race Engineering wanting to keep their good ties with Vauxhall
they could re-associate with Vauxhall having not committed to any other brand of car manufacturer..

Running the race team is just part of what Triple Eight do as a business.
They build hundreds of VXR models for Vauxhall!
So the ties are still there! and will be for a long time to come.

Running another brand in motorsport would have no effect either, they run Fords in Oz.

[TCuns]

It may be the end of the world after all Ford and Honda were both close to giving factory support and with established programes they may look to give factory support in 2010. Some manufacturer support is important, but the fact the BTCC can still get drivers such as Plato, Giovanardi and Thompson suggests the racing and prestige wont be diminished........still great shame, I just imagined vauxhall considered the btcc petty expendidture, just like Ferrari do and wrote the cheque each year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[stevenlcroucher]

BTCC = glorified club racing?



That is probably correct. Other than TV coverage and arguably better talent, the BTCC will be no different to BritCar.

I would argue that Vauxhall should be commended for their efforts in British motorsports over the years when overs have pulled out.

If Vauxhall survive, I understand GM have dumped a load of debt on them, then I am confident we will see them back in the BTCC in a year or two; who knows, there could even be an Opel/Vauxhall attack on the WTCC.

(Don't forget your pinch of salt, most of the above is pure speculation.) :)

[BTCC2]

In response to wedge, the answer is simply no it isn't.

[WSRfan82]

wow what a bummer that is....

as crazy as this will sound...i do think the btcc will be better with out any works teams but saying that i am sad to hear btcc as it once was it slowly dieing

[BDunnell]

I think a bit of an historical perspective wouldn't go amiss here. In the days of the Sierra Cosworths, there was almost no works involvement in their class — only occasional appearances by the Eggenberger cars. Then you had works BMW and Vauxhall entries in the lower classes, but not much else in the way of official representation. A lot of the drivers then, including the Cosworth drivers, were 'gentleman' or club racers. You never read (in the past tense or the present) anyone complaining about any of this.

And I still maintain that the top end of the BTCC driver line-up today, especially with the return of James Thompson, is genuinely excellent. Don't let's forget that for every Alain Menu or Rickard Rydell in the 1990s there was a Gianni Morbidelli or a Steve Robertson, or indeed that in 1995, in my opinion the best year in terms of drivers in the BTCC, the only races that really sparkled were the weather-affected ones. This isn't the case now.

[TCuns]

I agree with BDunnell about 1995 etc, even now in the WTCC, are the races any more exciting than the btcc with all the big names the wtcc has???

[BDunnell]

I agree with BDunnell about 1995 etc, even now in the WTCC, are the races any more exciting than the btcc with all the big names the wtcc has???

No, not helped by the circuits used a lot of the time. I am deeply uninterested in the WTCC, to be honest — the driving standards make the BTCC's look positively saintly. And history shows that foreign stars coming into the BTCC can have it very hard. Even bearing in mind his poor car, when Giovanardi first took part in 2006, he often looked a bit ordinary, being matched for pace by his team-mates Chilton and Gavin Smith. Then you had someone like Mike Jordan who was the epitome of the outstanding privateer.

[Abo]

It won't bother me if there is no manufacturer presence *if* there is a healthy entry of car builders among the single car privateer teams. Maybe BTCC could implement a couple of rule changes to reduce costs a bit to encourage some entries, and to make sure the little guys can keep up with the experienced teams.

[m.lowe]

Maybe a time for Vauxhall to use the Opel Corsa S2000 now in rallying given the amount of manufacturers that are competing in the IRC and customer teams out there

Mike Nicholson the man in charge at Vauxhall is old school rally man so I would think he would love to get back into rallying

[wedge]

And history shows that foreign stars coming into the BTCC can have it very hard. Giovanardi first took part in 2006, he often looked a bit ordinary, being matched for pace by his team-mates Chilton and Gavin Smith. Then you had someone like Mike Jordan who was the epitome of the outstanding privateer.

Gio raced all across Europe. Whereas the Brits, naturally have extensive knowledge of UK tracks. A year later he is champion elect.

And what about your Yvan Mullers, Smoking Jo Winklehocks, Gabrielle Tarquinis, Frank Bielas - OK he had 4WD and even with ballast he still gave as good as he got.



Mike Jordan - he's a crafty racer, he was my favourite driver in Eurocars 10 years ago. Good too see him taking on the big boys. Andrew will surely do the same as a next generation racer (BTCC as well as Jordan terms).

[AndyRAC]

Maybe a time for Vauxhall to use the Opel Corsa S2000 now in rallying given the amount of manufacturers that are competing in the IRC and customer teams out there

Mike Nicholson the man in charge at Vauxhall is old school rally man so I would think he would love to get back into rallying

That would be nice to see - but I can't see it happening.

[Eurotech]

I wonder if a Vectra or two will end up with Erkut and Arkas Racing seeing as the Economic crisis hasn't hit Turkey that hard...

[tdb]

Then you had someone like Mike Jordan who was the epitome of the outstanding privateer.

I was never that impressed! i wouldn't ever put Jordan in the "outstanding" catagory.

[philipbain]

I was expecting an announcment one way or the other, either a commitment for few seasons with the new Insignia chassis or for them to call it a day, i'm not surprised that they have chosen the latter as they have no manufacturer competition and getting beaten by privateers may be perceived as a little embarrassing despite the fact thatmany of the BTCC privateers put some works teams in other championships to shame (Team Dynamics spring to mind as an excellent quality non-works entrant).

I think with the works teams gone it will encourage more privateer teams to develop their own chassis as they no longer have to compete with corporate budgets and their development potential, so I really don't think people should see this as all doom and gloom, perhaps the BTCC is just reverting to the spirit it had before the Super Touring era which brought the works teams in to begin with, where entrants choose models to develop based on the merits of the original chassis and engine rather than supporting the marketing of certain models.

[Eurotech]

to be honest, loosing vauxhall would mean loosing 3 cars off the grid. which isn't much when you think we have had 4 last minute entrants since the Media Day.

[I am evil Homer]

It makes sense...developing the Insignia would require time and money and obv Vauxhall sees little point or return on that investment.

[Rollo]

Considering that in the V8Supercars, Triple 8 don't run Fords but "Pigs" because Ford withdrew their funding, then in all seriousness, Triple 8 could engineering pretty well much anything compliant.

http://www.teamvodafone.com/
Nowhere will you find on the website any Ford logos or even a hint of blue.

Also, the announcement came from Vauxhall, not 888.
http://www.tripleeight.co.uk/press/?storyId=395&Id=1
Vauxhall announced today that VX Racing will not return to the British Touring Car Championship (BTCC) in 2010.

Take note:
“It is not the end of Triple Eight though, far from it. We will be back next season, albeit in a different guise, still doing what we do best: Winning races and promoting our partners and sponsors products in the very best possible way."

Triple 8 are smart enough to look at the rules and then decide for themselves which car to engineer and race. TD after all built and ran the Integra DC5 which wasn't even sold by Honda in the UK.

[I am evil Homer]

Which make's Whincups arse kicking to the 'works Ford teams all the sweeter this year in V8s!!! Ford backed the wrong teams!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

The problem we have now is what manufacturer is going to enter when they have no one to beat?

As I said earlier, in terms of manufacturers the BTCC is a dead duck.

And who watches a dead duck? Not even its mother, she just flies off depressed.

[BTCC2]

Volvo seemed very interested earler this year.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Volvo seemed very interested earler this year.

when Vauxhall was still there

[BDunnell]

when Vauxhall was still there

But who is to say that we won't see another manufacturer entry taking Vauxhall's place? It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.

These things tend to come in phases anyway. British Touring Car racing hasn't always been dominated by manufacturer-backed cars — far from it.

[wedge]

The problem we have now is what manufacturer is going to enter when they have no one to beat?

As I said earlier, in terms of manufacturers the BTCC is a dead duck.

And who watches a dead duck? Not even its mother, she just flies off depressed.

As long as we have a variety of competitive cars, does it really matter?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

But who is to say that we won't see another manufacturer entry taking Vauxhall's place? It isn't beyond the bounds of possibility.

These things tend to come in phases anyway. British Touring Car racing hasn't always been dominated by manufacturer-backed cars — far from it.

In my opinion the BTCC was best when it was dominated by manufacturers.


As long as we have a variety of competitive cars, does it really matter?

Yes I think it does. Teams like WSR, RML and Team Dynamics are great, but it just isn't the same as having big manufacturers racing each other. And the opportunity for the minnows to beat the big factory teams has gone.

Plus- manufacturers have the ability to draw the biggest driving names to the series.

[Daniel]

You're wasting your time Jon. You could have grannies driving around and call it the BTCC and some people would still live it........

[MattL]

Another constructive comment from Daniel. Thanks for your valuable contribution.

[BDunnell]

Plus- manufacturers have the ability to draw the biggest driving names to the series.

I would rather see one Mat Jackson in the series than any number of people like Steve Robertson, Gianni Morbidelli, Jean-Christophe Boullion, Luke Hines and James Pickford, all of whom were solely factory drivers in the BTCC. Some would argue that young talent hasn't always been best served by works teams, in this or other forms of motorsport.

[WSRfan82]

With Vauxhall pulling out. im just wondering what will happen to the drivers....

Neal i cant see going back to TD and Giovanardi...well...just cant picture him as a indpendent driver, id say Giovanardi will go to WTCC and Neal well maybe do the same

[Daniel]

MattL. All I'm saying is that some people on the forum seem unable to step back and see how bad things really are. It's nice to have the rose tinted specs on sometimes but there does come a day that you've got to be honest with yourself.

[MattL]

MattL. All I'm saying is that some people on the forum seem unable to step back and see how bad things really are. It's nice to have the rose tinted specs on sometimes but there does come a day that you've got to be honest with yourself.

Not everyone has to share your opinion all the time though! You only ever seem to come over here to tell everyone how wrong they are. Anyway...back onto topic...

[Daniel]

Of course they don't need to feel the same. Jon seems to agree so I'm not on my own. I do seriously think people are very much in denial. The BTCC used to have a world audience beack in the ST days. Now?

[AndySpeed]

The BTCC used to have a world audience back in the ST days. Now?

Can you exactly prove that it doesn't now though? There has been so much change in the way it's covered since the ST days too, more online coverage, complete raceday coverage, the invention of Freeview...

[Daniel]

I don't need to prove anything. It's up to yourself to see how dire things are at the moment. The coverage these days is appallingly bad. It's the difference between the BBC F1 and ITV coverage. that aside the fact there is only one manufacturer says a little about how little marketing value there is in the championship now. Sure the credit crunch hasn't helped but it was alwyas going down. Next year there is no one so it is just effectively a national clubman series.......

[wedge]

Of course they don't need to feel the same. Jon seems to agree so I'm not on my own. I do seriously think people are very much in denial. The BTCC used to have a world audience beack in the ST days. Now?


Did 80s Group A BTCC command worldwide audience?

[Daniel]

Asking the wrong person.

[LiamM]

Why are people living in the past so much! We will never ever see the level of manufacturer backing which we had in the late-ST days again simple as. Instead we have a number of well funded independent teams building their own cars in a set of regulations that aren't perfect but produce good entertaining racing, and the odd manufacturer who wants to fit it into their marketing strategy for a few years.

If a manufacturer truely wants to go touring car racing these days it has to go to the WTCC, manufacturer backed national racing is almost dead, I believe the only reason Vauxhall/Opel didnt jump across is because outside Europe their pretty much unknown.

If you don't like watching the BTCC now, no one forces you to so stop moaning about it!

[Daniel]

Why are people living in the past so much! We will never ever see the level of manufacturer backing which we had in the late-ST days again simple as. Instead we have a number of well funded independent teams building their own cars in a set of regulations that aren't perfect but produce good entertaining racing, and the odd manufacturer who wants to fit it into their marketing strategy for a few years.

If a manufacturer truely wants to go touring car racing these days it has to go to the WTCC, manufacturer backed national racing is almost dead, I believe the only reason Vauxhall/Opel didnt jump across is because outside Europe their pretty much unknown.

If you don't like watching the BTCC now, no one forces you to so stop moaning about it!

You're sidestepping the issue though. Viewing figures IIRC are down, manufacturer interest is at an alltime low and the coverage is not as good as it used to be because the popularity isn't there.

I agree that national manufacturer based motorsport is all but dead. But why? And is this a good thing?

For instance, in the 90's you had a great touring car series here in Britain and you also had what was IMHO the best national rally series at the time when the F2 cars dominated the BRC. It was exciting and it was spectacular and it was popular in the UK as well as in other parts of the world. It also attracted the worlds best drivers.

Sit back and think for a moment why people are being negative about the BTCC...... just think about it for a moment and you might see why I'm saying the things I'm saying.

[racer69]

What happened was the formation of a European-based touring car championship and then the extension into the WTCC. In 90s it was the BTCC that had the big money and the name drivers, but it was centred on one market, any series crossing Europe or the world was always going to be more attractive.

I don't see the reason for getting so worried, the series is looking pretty peachy compared to 2001 and even worse 1986, that was when there was something to worry about!!

[BDunnell]

You're sidestepping the issue though. Viewing figures IIRC are down, manufacturer interest is at an alltime low and the coverage is not as good as it used to be because the popularity isn't there.

In what sense is the coverage not as good as it was?



Sit back and think for a moment why people are being negative about the BTCC...... just think about it for a moment and you might see why I'm saying the things I'm saying.

I have tried and the only answer I can come up with is that you, with respect, have decided to be negative about the BTCC and are sticking stubbornly to that course, without applying any objective analysis to it.

[BDunnell]

I don't need to prove anything. It's up to yourself to see how dire things are at the moment. The coverage these days is appallingly bad. It's the difference between the BBC F1 and ITV coverage. that aside the fact there is only one manufacturer says a little about how little marketing value there is in the championship now. Sure the credit crunch hasn't helped but it was alwyas going down. Next year there is no one so it is just effectively a national clubman series.......

Daniel, I cannot recall you posting on the BTCC part of the forum until you decided to start coming on here to offer us the benefit of your negative viewpoint. I am not sure you are much of a touring car enthusiast, though I might be wrong. I am really trying to see where you are coming from and am completely unable to. I respect your views on rallying, because I know you are a true rallying enthusiast. I must say I don't think the same about your views about and enthusiasm for the BTCC.

[Daniel]

In what sense is the coverage not as good as it was?

It's bad in the sense that ITV's coverage of the F1 was bad compared to the BBC's coverage this year. ITV showed the F1 on ITV1 which showed how important it was for them. The BTCC however is one what? ITV3 or 4? The BBC know how to do coverage. The F1 and MotoGP coverage is an excellent example of how it should be done. The BTCC coverage comes across as very low budget and IMHO it never seemed to come across like that back in the ST days. Having Charlie Cox and Murray Walker onboard did help but that's not the point. Perhaps I just have high standards when it comes to coverage. Personally I would rate the BTCC coverage as being down there with the WRC coverage and I think that's pretty bad.


I have tried and the only answer I can come up with is that you, with respect, have decided to be negative about the BTCC and are sticking stubbornly to that course, without applying any objective analysis to it.

I have tried and the only answer I can come up with is that you, with respect, have decided to be positive about the BTCC and are sticking stubbornly to that course, without applying any objective analysis to it. You don't seem to consider the glorious past the BTCC had as well as the relative success of the WTCC which although it has its problems is still a series which is in good enough shape to bring in manufacturers who are prepared to invest lots of time, effort and money and which still brings famous names in. The BTCC back in the day was effectively a world series now it's just a shadow of its former self.

The reason why I seem so stubborn perhaps is the amazing insistence from some quarters that having less manufacturers in is better. You can only build a better series when you admit what is wrong and make a plan on how to rectify it. I love my tintops incidently just as I love my rallying. I just don't do mediocrity :p

[AndySpeed]

It's bad in the sense that ITV's coverage of the F1 was bad compared to the BBC's coverage this year. ITV showed the F1 on ITV1 which showed how important it was for them. The BTCC however is one what? ITV3 or 4? The BBC know how to do coverage. The F1 and MotoGP coverage is an excellent example of how it should be done. The BTCC coverage comes across as very low budget and IMHO it never seemed to come across like that back in the ST days. Having Charlie Cox and Murray Walker onboard did help but that's not the point. Perhaps I just have high standards when it comes to coverage. Personally I would rate the BTCC coverage as being down there with the WRC coverage and I think that's pretty bad.

Ben Edwards and Tim Harvey are a top notch commentary team, and remember we now have legendary sports anchorman Steve Rider and ex-F1 pitlane reporter Louise Goodman, who know how to interview. The BTCC is on ITV4, which is considered to be a blokes channel, partly for that reason and also to allow many more hours of coverage which I think a lot of people enjoy. You couldn't have so much on ITV1, and if you did it would get lots of complaints for being too edited/cut/not live.

[Daniel]

Ben Edwards and Tim Harvey are a top notch commentary team, and remember we now have legendary sports anchorman Steve Rider and ex-F1 pitlane reporter Louise Goodman, who know how to interview. The BTCC is on ITV4, which is considered to be a blokes channel, partly for that reason and also to allow many more hours of coverage which I think a lot of people enjoy. You couldn't have so much on ITV1, and if you did it would get lots of complaints for being too edited/cut/not live.
Good point. With Goodman onboard now it's even poorer in terms of quality.

I should mention that F1 coped just fine with sometimes being swapped over from one channel to another if there was another sporting event. Saying that ITV4 is a blokes channel which will allow it more coverage is just a cop out. It's there because it's not popular enough to go on ITV1 or ITV2

[Alfa Fan]

Good point. With Goodman onboard now it's even poorer in terms of quality.

:D It makes me happy when your unhappy. I'm happy a lot. :bounce:

[Daniel]

:D It makes me happy when your unhappy. I'm happy a lot. :bounce:
LOL. Whatever makes you happy I guess. I'm not happy with a once great series being like this and I hope to hell that it returns to its former glory as soon. I'm not so vindictive as to want the BTCC to cease to be just to satisfy my need for someone else to be unhappy. But perhaps that's just me.

P.S Your long running obsession with me is cute but no thanks, I'm very much taken but if anything happens you'll be the first to know :kiss:

[BDunnell]

Daniel, again with respect, I disagree vehemently with you on all counts. And repeating what I posted back to me is just lazy.

[Daniel]

Daniel, again with respect, I disagree vehemently with you on all counts. And repeating what I posted back to me is just lazy.

I think you just said what I wanted to say very well, well as well as you can say it given I think the opposite but you know what I mean :)

Anyhoo I think it's time to agree to disagree :cool: I accept what others have said even though I don't agree with it.

P.S I should point out that as you well know the BTCC is not the only motorsport series I'm critical of. The WRC which only a few short years ago was my favourite series is now one which I criticise rather regularly. If you'd told me a few years ago I'd be following F1 and supporting Jenson Button I'd have told you where to go :p

[BDunnell]

Yes, and I respect your opinions on the WRC because they are well-founded. But your views on the BTCC, in my view, just aren't and leave me wondering how much BTCC you ever watched before now.

[Daniel]

Yes, and I respect your opinions on the WRC because they are well-founded. But your views on the BTCC, in my view, just aren't and leave me wondering how much BTCC you ever watched before now.
I've watched enough :)

[MattL]

Daniel's happy so long as someone responds to what he says. My suggestion is just to ignore him and he'll go away.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I agree with Daniel that the BTCC is a shadow of its former self but I don't agree with him about the coverage. For the motorsport enthusiast all-day live ITV4 coverage of the Toca package is better than it has ever been (way better than WTCC coverage). Although, from a marketing point of view BBC1 coverage would make the series more attractive to manufacturers.

[Daniel]

Daniel's happy so long as someone responds to what he says. My suggestion is just to ignore him and he'll go away.
Listen, I'm happy as long as people are wiling to have a sensible debate. It's extremely childish of you to suggest people ignore me because I don't agree with your views on things. BDunnell doesn't agree with me at all and Jon doesn't agree with half of what I've said but at least we can be civil and adult about it!

[Daniel]

I agree with Daniel that the BTCC is a shadow of its former self but I don't agree with him about the coverage. For the motorsport enthusiast all-day live ITV4 coverage of the Toca package is better than it has ever been (way better than WTCC coverage). Although, from a marketing point of view BBC1 coverage would make the series more attractive to manufacturers.
Fair enough :) I agree the WTCC coverage isn't 100% but I think it's still good :) Horses for courses though. I'd LOVE to see what the BBC could do with the WTCC if they got a hold of it. Heck, I'd love to see what they'd do with the BTCC but I still don't think it would make up for the lack of international talent (Gio aside) and manufacturers

[AndySpeed]

Listen, I'm happy as long as people are wiling to have a sensible debate. It's extremely childish of you to suggest people ignore me because I don't agree with your views on things. BDunnell doesn't agree with me at all and Jon doesn't agree with half of what I've said but at least we can be civil and adult about it!

Agreed, there is no reason to ignore what you're saying because sometimes you can bring up things that are in the back of a lot of people's minds anyway but they don't want to admit that they know it.

I disagree with Matt.

[Daniel]

Agreed, there is no reason to ignore what you're saying because sometimes you can bring up things that are in the back of a lot of people's minds anyway but they don't want to admit that they know it.

I disagree with Matt.
Thanks! I really appreciate that :)

I respect people's opinions, I really do. If people on here like the BTCC so much and it makes them happy then good for them! It's no harm to me and I'm always happy to see others happy. Perhaps my idea of a good tintop series is just different to that of a lot of other people out there :)

[Brown, Jon Brow]

One thing I don't like about the ITV coverage is that it always sounds like Ben Edwards has his hands down Tim Harveys pants

[Rover V8]

I have tried and the only answer I can come up with is that you, with respect, have decided to be positive about the BTCC and are sticking stubbornly to that course, without applying any objective analysis to it. You don't seem to consider the glorious past the BTCC had as well as the relative success of the WTCC which although it has its problems is still a series which is in good enough shape to bring in manufacturers who are prepared to invest lots of time, effort and money and which still brings famous names in. The BTCC back in the day was effectively a world series now it's just a shadow of its former self.

The reason why I seem so stubborn perhaps is the amazing insistence from some quarters that having less manufacturers in is better. You can only build a better series when you admit what is wrong and make a plan on how to rectify it. I love my tintops incidently just as I love my rallying. I just don't do mediocrity :p

That 'glorious past' you're talking about was a pretty brief period in the history of the BTCC where it was punching way above it's weight in terms of manufacturer involvement for a national series- I'd have to look it up, but I'm sure none of the other national touring car series in Europe at that time managed to have anything like as many manufacturers involved. If you look back across the whole history of the BTCC, generally it's been much closer to what we've seen in recent years- a few manufacturer cars and a lot of privateers. Speaking as someone who first started watching BTCC in 1985, I've seen it in much worse shape than it is now...

[BDunnell]

That 'glorious past' you're talking about was a pretty brief period in the history of the BTCC where it was punching way above it's weight in terms of manufacturer involvement for a national series- I'd have to look it up, but I'm sure none of the other national touring car series in Europe at that time managed to have anything like as many manufacturers involved.

If I recall correctly, the German STW Cup had BMW, Audi, Nissan, Peugeot and Ford competing at once with works teams in the mid-1990s. I certainly can't think of a series with any more than the BTCC.

As stated previously in a thread (I think this one), anyone who recalls the period in which the BTCC was probably at its height in terms of prestige, ie 1995 with nine manufacturers (I know 1994 had 10, but not for the whole season), as a golden age in terms of racing is looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles. The only races in 1995 that really sparkled were the ones — and there were lots of them — where the weather intervened. This was largely down to the aero aids, in my view.

[Daniel]

That 'glorious past' you're talking about was a pretty brief period in the history of the BTCC where it was punching way above it's weight in terms of manufacturer involvement for a national series- I'd have to look it up, but I'm sure none of the other national touring car series in Europe at that time managed to have anything like as many manufacturers involved. If you look back across the whole history of the BTCC, generally it's been much closer to what we've seen in recent years- a few manufacturer cars and a lot of privateers. Speaking as someone who first started watching BTCC in 1985, I've seen it in much worse shape than it is now...
All good points :) I still prefer the BTCC in the ST years still but I do take what you're saying onboard :up:

[Daniel]

If I recall correctly, the German STW Cup had BMW, Audi, Nissan, Peugeot and Ford competing at once with works teams in the mid-1990s. I certainly can't think of a series with any more than the BTCC.

As stated previously in a thread (I think this one), anyone who recalls the period in which the BTCC was probably at its height in terms of prestige, ie 1995 with nine manufacturers (I know 1994 had 10, but not for the whole season), as a golden age in terms of racing is looking at it through rose-tinted spectacles. .

While true, it wasn't just the level of manufacturer involvement it was the quality of the teams. You had Prodrive, Williams, MSD and TWR which are all big names as well as other teams which were run inhouse. You had big names like Biela, Menu, Plato, Harvey, Cleland, Mansell, Rydell, Thompson, Muller and plenty more, it just read like a who's who of tintops. Perhaps it was just the perfect coming together of a number of things at one time.

[BDunnell]

While true, it wasn't just the level of manufacturer involvement it was the quality of the teams. You had Prodrive, Williams, MSD and TWR which are all big names as well as other teams which were run inhouse. You had big names like Biela, Menu, Plato, Harvey, Cleland, Mansell, Rydell, Thompson, Muller and plenty more, it just read like a who's who of tintops. Perhaps it was just the perfect coming together of a number of things at one time.

It was an excellent coming-together of many things at once. But, as for the quality of the teams, the one that was run in-house, Peugeot, was unsuccessful. You could have added WSR to the list, a team that's still there now, and still a top touring car outfit. Of that list of drivers, Plato's still there, so's Thompson, Harvey (while a favourite of mine) was never really competitive in the later Super Touring days, Mansell was utterly brilliant once but otherwise very poor indeed, and I would say that Giovanardi, Turkington, Jackson and others are more than adequate replacements.

[Daniel]

It was an excellent coming-together of many things at once. But, as for the quality of the teams, the one that was run in-house, Peugeot, was unsuccessful. You could have added WSR to the list, a team that's still there now, and still a top touring car outfit. Of that list of drivers, Plato's still there, so's Thompson, Harvey (while a favourite of mine) was never really competitive in the later Super Touring days, Mansell was utterly brilliant once but otherwise very poor indeed, and I would say that Giovanardi, Turkington, Jackson and others are more than adequate replacements.
IIRC the 406's were run by MSD.

[BDunnell]

IIRC the 406's were run by MSD.

Only in 1997 and '98. Before that, Peugeot was the sole in-house manufacturer team.

[Wasted Talent]

You're sidestepping the issue though. Viewing figures IIRC are down, manufacturer interest is at an alltime low and the coverage is not as good as it used to be because the popularity isn't there.

I agree that national manufacturer based motorsport is all but dead. But why? And is this a good thing?

For instance, in the 90's you had a great touring car series here in Britain and you also had what was IMHO the best national rally series at the time when the F2 cars dominated the BRC. It was exciting and it was spectacular and it was popular in the UK as well as in other parts of the world. It also attracted the worlds best drivers.

Sit back and think for a moment why people are being negative about the BTCC...... just think about it for a moment and you might see why I'm saying the things I'm saying.

Off topic but your comments about the BRC are rubbish - F2 had a few manufacturers but with boring (but loud) cars. World's top drivers - like who?? Kytolehto and Laukkanen??

Go back to the 1980s when it was hard to differentiate between the BRC and WRC.

Regular drivers were :

Mikkola
Vatanen
Toivonen
Kullang
Eklund
Airikkala

as well as the top Brits:
McRae
Brookes
Wilson
Pond etc all in top specification WRC type cars

WT

[Daniel]

Only in 1997 and '98. Before that, Peugeot was the sole in-house manufacturer team.
I'll bow to your superior knowledge on that one. Wikipedia says they were Prodrive before they were MSD? Probably wrong though.

Wasted Talent, I think BDunnell will even come out in defence of the F2 days of the BRC. Perhaps (edit: no definitely!!!) worlds best drivers was the wrong way to put it but they were good drivers and it was a great series.

[AndyRAC]

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on that one. Wikipedia says they were Prodrive before they were MSD? Probably wrong though.

Wasted Talent, I think BDunnell will even come out in defence of the F2 days of the BRC. Perhaps (edit: no definitely!!!) worlds best drivers was the wrong way to put it but they were good drivers and it was a great series.

I'd definately agree, good drivers really trying, both on gravel & Tarmac - can't agree about boring cars though - F2 cars were great!!

[BDunnell]

I'll bow to your superior knowledge on that one. Wikipedia says they were Prodrive before they were MSD? Probably wrong though.

Yes. The cars were run by Peugeot Sport from the factory in Coventry from their entry in 1992 until the end of the 1996 season.

Oh, and I would agree about the F2 BRC. It will never rank as high in my affections as the Open series of the 1980s, but it was still damn good.

[Daniel]

Off topic. Am I the only one who finds the thread title a bit dirty?

[BDunnell]

Yes.

[Wasted Talent]

Off topic. Am I the only one who finds the thread title a bit dirty?


Apparently the Pope will be driving for Vauxhall now!!!

WT

[Daniel]

Nice one WT

[Micholly]

Off topic. Am I the only one who finds the thread title a bit dirty?

Vauxhall pull out. BTCC not pregnant.

[Brown, Jon Brow]

Off topic. Am I the only one who finds the thread title a bit dirty?

I am shocked and appalled :mad:

[Allyc85]

Off topic. Am I the only one who finds the thread title a bit dirty?

grow up..

[tdb]

So, back on topic!

An Arbarth Astra anyone?

[Clark Trent]

If Daniel allows shall we get back to the topic ie Vauxhall will pull out of the BTCC at the end of the year and what will 888 do then?

888 have hinted that they may have another manufacturer interested.

If not it is highly likely they will get a big sponsor on board and run the Vectras for another year as an independant. That way they keep their profile in everyones mind so when the upturn arrives they are in position to take advantage.

Of course if Fiat do buy GM we may be watching Puntos on track. Aghhhhhh!!

[Brown, Jon Brow]

If Daniel allows shall we get back to the topic ie Vauxhall will pull out of the BTCC at the end of the year and what will 888 do then?

888 have hinted that they may have another manufacturer interested.

If not it is highly likely they will get a big sponsor on board and run the Vectras for another year as an independant. That way they keep their profile in everyones mind so when the upturn arrives they are in position to take advantage.

Of course if Fiat do buy GM we may be watching Puntos on track. Aghhhhhh!!


Punto!!! :eek:

Wouldn't the Bravo be a more appropriate model, size wise? Although there isn't an Abarth version.

[Daniel]

If Daniel allows shall we get back to the topic ie Vauxhall will pull out of the BTCC at the end of the year and what will 888 do then?

Of course if Fiat do buy GM we may be watching Puntos on track. Aghhhhhh!!

:rotflmao: Whatever.

Anyway Corsa's and Grande Punto's share the same platform so I very much doubt Fiat would take GP's to the BTCC and not allow Vauxhall to race the Corsa.

[Daniel]

Punto!!! :eek:

Wouldn't the Bravo be a more appropriate model, size wise? Although there isn't an Abarth version.
Well I doubt Fiat would go into touring cars, rallying is more their thing as shown by the whole Abarth thing :)

[Allyc85]

Yea Fiat or rather Arbarth are rumoured to be close to joining the WRC so cant see them doing both unfortunately.