Hamilton stripped of third place

[ArrowsFA1]

Lewis Hamilton has been disqualified from the Australian Grand Prix and Jarno Trulli's post-race penalty rescinded, giving the Toyota driver third place again.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74146

[Dave B]

Good grief. This one will run and run.

[BDunnell]

If Lewis deliberatly mislead the FIA then he deserves punishing. If McLaren tried to trick Toyota then they deserve the same and I consider this to be a grave case to answer.

However IF is a very big word.

I will say that is was instances like this that turned me off Schumacher as a driver and IF there has been deliberate cheating, then I will be disgusted.

At the moment though, there is nothing more than rumours.

My view too. But what a chaotic situation this has become. With the amounts of information and footage available to the FIA and the stewards, it ought to have been possible to sort it out on the day, no matter what the outcome. But then I thought the same of that 2003 Brazilian GP 'result'...

[pino]

Great news :bounce: :p :

[F1boat]

And so, if the diffusers are banned, what an amazing win by Fernando Alonso and Renault and a thrilling podium for Buemi in hist first race as Champcar ace Bourdais is third!

What a farce...

[ArrowsFA1]

At first I was pissed off that I hadn't checked the calendar before getting tickets for the BTCC at Brands this weekend which meant I'd miss watching the Malaysian GP live.

Now I'm delighted. I can go and watch a great day's racing, then come back and watch the GP after waiting to see news of all the stewards decisions that might affect the eventual result, whenever that may be announced.

:dozey:

[BDunnell]

At first I was pissed off that I hadn't checked the calendar before getting tickets for the BTCC at Brands this weekend which meant I'd miss watching the Malaysian GP live.

Now I'm delighted. I can go and watch a great day's racing, then come back and watch the GP after waiting to see news of all the stewards decisions that might affect the eventual result, whenever that may be announced.

:dozey:

And you'll be watching a series that, for all the inconsistency shown by its stewards over the years, at least has been shown to use sensible discretion in incidents where someone passes under a yellow flag!

[SGWilko]

Well, I applaud the FIA in this case. If Lewis has been a bit, well 'economical' with the truth, then he should be smacked on the bottom.......

[Dave B]

What's important to remember is that this penalty is for misleading the stewards. We're still not really any clearer what happened on the track, and still waiting for the publication of the evidence as promised by the FIA.

[Knock-on]

I'm disgusted.

Why deliberatly mislead the Stewards. What was there to gain?

I am really dissapointed in both McLaren and Lewis over this.

Spygate was stupid. I know all the teams were doing it but they got a right royal rollocking and deserved it.

Did they learn a lesson? Did they F*ck!

Why, why, why lie to the Stewards. It's sheer lunacy and a real letdown to their fans.

Not a very happy bunny at the moment :(

[Valve Bounce]

Justice is served.

[pino]

I'm disgusted.

Why deliberatly mislead the Stewards. What was there to gain?

I am really dissapointed in both McLaren and Lewis over this.

Spygate was stupid. I know all the teams were doing it but they got a right royal rollocking and deserved it.

Did they learn a lesson? Did they F*ck!

Why, why, why lie to the Stewards. It's sheer lunacy and a real letdown to their fans.

Not a very happy bunny at the moment :(

How about going back supporting Ferrari... ;)

[Mifune]

At first I was pissed off that I hadn't checked the calendar before getting tickets for the BTCC at Brands this weekend which meant I'd miss watching the Malaysian GP live.

Now I'm delighted. I can go and watch a great day's racing, then come back and watch the GP after waiting to see news of all the stewards decisions that might affect the eventual result, whenever that may be announced.

:dozey:

I agree, I think we've become tolerant of the that way f1 is governed but if you step back and imagine if Olympic events, the FA or World Cup or any world class sporting event was routinely decided and then re-decided with such monotonous regularity people wouldn't tolerate it.
I know f1 being a motorsport is subject to different factors and variables but even within motorsport in general you don’t see this kind of constant officious tampering and seemingly whimsical application of regulations, that serve to detract from the whatever spectacle there is left in F1.
I really think the FIA needs to be removed from the equation altogether and the running and governance of F1 needs to be thoroughly overhauled, if that means FOTA then so be it.
FWIW if Hamilton lied then he deserves his punishment but let’s be honest with ourselves the main rule he broke was “don’t get caught” Schumacher fans will remember that one well I’m sure.

[gm99]

I wish there was some consistency with regard to the 25sec-penalty being the equivalent of a drive-through penalty and therefore not subject to later review. If the same incident had taken place during the first safety-car period, Trulli would have been given and most likely served a drive-through penalty and there would have been no way to correct the result afterwards (or would they have subtracted 25sec from his finishing time?).

It should be unchallengeable just like a referee's decision in football: if a penalty kick is awarded by the referee and a goal scored as a result, the goal remains a goal even if it is later proven that there should not have been a penalty in the first place, for instance because the fouled player took a dive. It may be harsh & unfair in some situations, but at least you know the outcome of the game/race when the whistle blows/the checkered flag drops.

I am really fed up with not knowing the final results of a Grand Prix for days after I finished watching it...

[CNR]

And so, if the diffusers are banned, what an amazing win by Fernando Alonso and Renault and a thrilling podium for Buemi in hist first race as Champcar ace Bourdais is third!

What a farce...
it would be good but McLaren got to keep there win after the 2nd brake

At the 1997 Austrian Grand Prix (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_Austrian_Grand_Prix), Darren Heath (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Darren_Heath), an F1 Racing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_Racing) photographer, noticed in some of his shots that one of the rear brakes of the McLarens were glowing red in an acceleration zone of the track. The magazine discovered through investigation that McLaren had installed a second brake pedal, selectable by the driver, to act on one of the rear wheels depending on the direction of the corner. This allowed the driver to reduce wheelspin when exiting slow corners and more usefully eliminate understeer (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Understeer) by turning the car into the corner while entering it, giving him the ability to brake later into the apex of the turn. Though the car passed scrutineering this system was not entirely legal, but was an innovation, and hence gave McLaren an advantage. As the system allowed one side of the car to be retarded compared to the other the system was considered a type of four-wheel steering which was banned in F1.

1997 Australian Grand Prix

110David Coulthard (http://www.formula1.com/results/driver/1997/11.html)McLaren-Mercedes (http://www.formula1.com/results/team/1997/2024.html)

[ioan]

Justice is served.

And rightly so!

For those questioning the decision and supporting cheaters and liars, what exactly are your values in life?!

[ArrowsFA1]

Why deliberatly mislead the Stewards. What was there to gain?

I am really dissapointed in both McLaren and Lewis over this.
:up:

I agree, reports seem to suggest they went into the hearing and gave a version of events designed to have Trulli penalised so it is absolutely right that they should suffer a penalty as a result.

[Tazio]

"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man."


Lewis Hamilton has been stripped of his third place finish in the season-opening Australian Grand Prix after the world champion and his team were judged to have provided 'misleading' evidence during a post-race stewards' hearing.

"Hoist with his own petard"

[555-04Q2]

The more things change, the more they stay the same :( After a thrilling start to the 2009 season, it is all crashing down, again. Looks like its time to start looking for another racing series to support :(

[Mifune]

I love the smell of petty minded self righteous indigence in the morning!

[woody2goody]

I'm happy about this. Like I said in another thread last night, I'm a big fan of Hamilton, but I knew at the time something wasn't right, and I immediately thought that there was no way Trulli would have been that stupid to risk throwing away all those points.

I'm glad it's sorted itself out. Lewis is going to have to be careful from now on. However I'm a believer of the guy and I think this is more the team's doing than his.

[COD]

Justice is served.

Exactly, and rightly so. I cannot help feeling very very happy for the decision.

[Tazio]

I love the smell of petty minded self righteous indigence in the morning!
Tell me is it anything like "the smell" of school girl panties sold from vending machines in your homeland?
:rotflmao:

[BDunnell]

:up:

I agree, reports seem to suggest they went into the hearing and gave a version of events designed to have Trulli penalised so it is absolutely right that they should suffer a penalty as a result.

Me too. And I'm very pleased to see Trulli reinstated because his was an excellent drive and he didn't deserve to be penalised under any circumstances.

[cosmicpanda]

I wish the FIA would stop doing this. It messes up pickems. :(

[woody2goody]

Me too. And I'm very pleased to see Trulli reinstated because his was an excellent drive and he didn't deserve to be penalised under any circumstances.

Spot on. Honestly McLaren are becoming as bad as Ferrari with regards to winning at all costs...

[AndyRAC]

:up:

I agree, reports seem to suggest they went into the hearing and gave a version of events designed to have Trulli penalised so it is absolutely right that they should suffer a penalty as a result.

Absolutely, no complaints at all.

I do agree with earlier posts though - gm99 & mifune. Motorsport in particular suffers from this, but it is the nature of the sport. I'm not sure what you can do to rectify this.
What is ridiculous was the result of the Daytona 24 hour race - the 'winning' car was underweight.

[Mark]

I wish the FIA would stop doing this. It messes up pickems. :(

The pickems winner we thought we had, is now no longer the winner! Everyone go check their new scores!

[Dave B]

And rightly so!

For those questioning the decision and supporting cheaters and liars, what exactly are your values in life?!
I can't see a single post thus far defending Lewis for misleading the stewards. Some of us are understandably questioning a process where decisions are taken without all the evidence, but that's another matter entirely.

For the record, I'm very disappointed with Hamilton's behaviour in this matter. A fine drive from near the back of the field to a solid points-scoring position has been overshadowed. He's better than that and doesn't need to resort to such tactics.

[ArrowsFA1]

It does seem extraordinary that a team and/or driver would give a version of events to stewards that they knew would not match with video and/or team radio evidence available to the stewards.

[Dave B]

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh denies that Lewis lied to the stewards, he says the team just didn't provide a clear enough explanation


http://twitter.com/Jamesallenonf1

[ioan]

Spot on. Honestly McLaren are becoming as bad as Ferrari with regards to winning at all costs...

Just leave Ferrari out of this, there is no comparison between the two teams.

[woody2goody]

I can't see a single post thus far defending Lewis for misleading the stewards. Some of us are understandably questioning a process where decisions are taken without all the evidence, but that's another matter entirely.

For the record, I'm very disappointed with Hamilton's behaviour in this matter. A fine drive from near the back of the field to a solid points-scoring position has been overshadowed. He's better than that and doesn't need to resort to such tactics.

Yeah but you know what McLaren are like mate. They probably just told him what to do and to tell the authorities the same. I mean yeah, for all we know it could have been Hamilton's doing but he strikes me as an honest lad so it's unlikely IMO.

I haven't trusted McLaren AS A TEAM since the whole Alonso business, where both were in the wrong incidentally.

[ioan]

McLaren boss Martin Whitmarsh denies that Lewis lied to the stewards, he says the team just didn't provide a clear enough explanation
http://twitter.com/Jamesallenonf1

Mr Withmarsh, you and your team are hard to believe after all the stuff that happened in the last couple of seasons.

[Dave B]

Q&A with Jarno Trulli on Autosport's site:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74148

[ioan]

Some of us are understandably questioning a process where decisions are taken without all the evidence, but that's another matter entirely.

Any process that delivers a just result is a good process.
Just because the stewards did believe all the things Hamy and McL told them in Oz doesn't mean that the wrong verdict has to stand.

IMO the FIA are getting better by the day. A few years ago they wouldn't have overturned a wrong verdict, now we are at the point where they will reconsider new evidence and deliver the right verdict.

This has also happened in many courtrooms in the last decade, while before it rarely happened, and often innocent people were wrongly sentenced.

[F1boat]

And rightly so!

For those questioning the decision and supporting cheaters and liars, what exactly are your values in life?!

First, I think that all people know that I don't support McLaren. I did when they had Hakkinen, but since 2005 I don't. The reason is that attitude, which we saw in Oz. I think that Trulli deserved his 3rd place, at least he deserved 4th. But what I hate about modern F1 is:
- That we will know the results of the 1st GP in April 15th, even if the stewards allowed the diffuser teams to race.
- That days after the Oz GP we don't know who is third.
- That last year we learned the name of the winner of the Belgium GP days after the end.
- That in 2007 we learned the name of the Formula One FIA World Champion after refreshing several websites and not on track.

That's what is really irritating me. I want to see a race, see the end and to know that this is the end really, just like the soccer example. They say that Pool bested Real Madrid because the referee helped them. Maybe. But we saw the results, saw the situations, had our opinions, BUT WE SAW THE WINNER and that's the end of it. What's happening now is a farce. Since 2007 I am tempted to quit watching F1. The only thing that keeps me hooked is that the racing is bloody good, bloody interesting. But if they take the points of the diffuser gang, maybe that will be, maybe I will finally quit. It is pointless to watch a race, if the winner is decided on table, after talking with lawyers and some old wretches from the FIA.
My opinion is that what we see on podium, is the final result. If there is a situation, it must be decided before the start of the race, if it is technical, or during it, it is an accident. If there are punishments after the race, they must be for the next race, at worst they must be like what Grand-Am did at Daytona - take points, don't change the result. I believe that the stewards' decision must be final. I know that this might sound impure, good for the show, but not for the sport etc, etc, etc, but I don't give a f**k, I want to enjoy the race and not to care about it after the checkered flag.
I want also to add that I have hooked three friend to watch F1 and this decisions annoyed them and lost them for the sport. They do not want to watch the race if they are unsure who won. That's the result of the FIA policy.

[Hondo]

I'm happy Jarno got his podium returned to him. I'd like to think that if both teams had told the officials the straight story at the end of the race, the officials would have let the results stand, i.e., Trulli -p3 and Hamilton-p4. The fact that McLaren insisted, in error, upon Hamilton allowing Trulli to pass him is not Toyota's problem.

I'm curious for those that make sports bets. Do the bookies now have to hunt down the people they've paid to get their money returned and do the bookies now have to pay some folks they didn't have to pay before the ruling?

[ArrowsFA1]

IMO the FIA are getting better by the day. A few years ago they wouldn't have overturned a wrong verdict, now we are at the point where they will reconsider new evidence and deliver the right verdict.
ioan, that doesn't quite tally up with your view you gave earlier that:
These stewards are a bunch of lunatics whom never turned a wheel in anger.
The stewards delivering this latest verdict are the same ones you were referring to then.

While they may have rightly penalized Hamilton/McLaren this time, IMHO there are genuine questions, yet to be answered, about the way this whole incident has been dealt with by FIA officials from the moment it happened to today.

If the FIA is genuine in its’ claim to be more transparent it will provide all the evidence online as promised. Then, and only then, will we be able to have an informed opinion of the rights and wrongs of all of this.

[Mifune]

Tell me is it anything like "the smell" of school girl panties sold from vending machines in your homeland?
:rotflmao:

Oddly you don’t mention where you live, but I don’t doubt there are some quite distasteful things to be purchased in the seedier areas of your country’s cities. You how like someone can be born somewhere and then like you know move to another place? A city or even another country? Have you heard of that phenomenon? You have? Right good? Then you might surmise then that because somebody lives somewhere they not actually BE from there, it might not be their “homeland” as you put it (stop me if I’m going too fast) so you have just insulted an entire race of people who have nothing to do with me! Go you!
I think I know what this is really about, don’t worry if you PM me ill get some of those panties sent over to you asap. You can count on me ;)

Oh final point, dude are you really 54? And this is your level of discourse?

[woody2goody]

At least this process has given us the right result.

I tell you, if the diffuser cars are thrown out of the opening races, maybe I will stop watching F1. Why? Because the other teams are jealous and that's the end of it. Those happen to be 3 out of the 5 best teams. I'm sure Brawn GP said that it might not even be the diffuser that makes their car faster than the rest. Which is true and could be said for Williams and Toyota too.

[Mark]

I'm curious for those that make sports bets. Do the bookies now have to hunt down the people they've paid to get their money returned and do the bookies now have to pay some folks they didn't have to pay before the ruling?

I would think in those situations the bookies have a cut off time and they pay out on the result as it stood at that time, and changes to the result later will not result in a changed payout.

[F1boat]

At least this process has given us the right result.

I tell you, if the diffuser cars are thrown out of the opening races, maybe I will stop watching F1.

Same here. I like a lot Rolex Sports Car Series, Le Mans Series, both in Europe and in the USA and Indycar, so I'll manage to survive without F1. However, I am a huge fan, I love the racing and I am very, very angry that FIA is ruining the whole thing.

[woody2goody]

Same here. I like a lot Rolex Sports Car Series, Le Mans Series, both in Europe and in the USA and Indycar, so I'll manage to survive without F1. However, I am a huge fan, I love the racing and I am very, very angry that FIA is ruining the whole thing.

I can get by with NASCAR, BTCC, WTCC and others. I probably won't stop watching F1, but for instance I won't go all out to see every session no matter what.

[christophulus]

If they lied, they get punished. Fairly clear cut to me. It's just stupid to appeal a result then lie about it. I really have no sympathy IF that is what happened.

Now we just need to wait for the FIA to release the video and radio evidence and we'll all... oh, wait, like that'll happen :mad:

[ioan]

But what I hate about modern F1 is:
- That we will know the results of the 1st GP in April 15th, even if the stewards allowed the diffuser teams to race.
- That days after the Oz GP we don't know who is third.
- That last year we learned the name of the winner of the Belgium GP days after the end.
- That in 2007 we learned the name of the Formula One FIA World Champion after refreshing several websites and not on track.

And in what way is this all influencing your life in any way?

I prefer to have a definite result later but knowing it's just than have the wrong result on place.
But each of us has his sense of justice, as clearly seen in this thread's posts.

[Tazio]

I'm curious for those that make sports bets. Do the bookies now have to hunt down the people they've paid to get their money returned and do the bookies now have to pay some folks they didn't have to pay before the ruling?
Any subsequent overturned decisions will be disregarded
http://www.stationcasinos.com/gaming/sports-book/rules/
This is only one Vegas Sports Book. It's been my experience that "The Stations" are pretty representative of Las Vegas Books

[F1boat]

Because I am a passionate fan and want to celebrate (or to mourn) the result. Where is the fun with celebrating a court decision? This is ridiculous. And about justice, I am watching F1 for fun, but still I think that what I suggested can balance things between "justice" and "fun". Right now it is very unbalanced. And if something is not fun for me, why watch it?

[BDunnell]

ioan, this is just a cock-up in an F1 race. Nobody died, nobody committed a criminal offence. A sense of proportion wouldn't go amiss. Neither would a touch of consistency in your posts.

[ioan]

ioan, that doesn't quite tally up with your view you gave earlier that:
The stewards delivering this latest verdict are the same ones you were referring to then.


Are you kidding me or you just don't pay attention to what you read?
I was talking about the verdict on the Kubica/Vettel incident, not about the one where Lewy lied to the stewards.

Also as far as I know the stewards in Sepang aren't the same ones as in Melbourne, only one of them is always present, the others not.

[BDunnell]

Are you kidding me or you just don't pay attention to what you read?
I was talking about the verdict on the Kubica/Vettel incident, not about the one where Lewy lied to the stewards.

Also as far as I know the stewards in Sepang aren't the same ones as in Melbourne, only one of them is always present, the others not.

Are they not the same people who made the two decisions, namely the one about Kubica/Vettel and the initial decision about Hamilton/Trulli?

[Tazio]

A pleased Jarno Trulli claimed he had received the justice he deserved when leaving race control at Sepang on Thursday. The Toyota driver lost the third place and six points he scored in Australia last weekend following an incident involving McLaren's Lewis Hamilton, for which the English team has now been been disqualified and Trulli's own penalty lifted, repositioning him to the podium spot.

"I am happy because I just wanted some justice, and I got it," Trulli said. "I am happy for myself and for the team, and have to thank the FIA because it's not very often that they reconsider something; it must have been really hard for them, but they had the common sense to really try and understand what was going on. I have been always honest and it has paid off."

http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/news/2009/04/02/trulli-i-have-always-been-honest/

[PolePosition_1]

I'm disgusted.

Why deliberatly mislead the Stewards. What was there to gain?

I am really dissapointed in both McLaren and Lewis over this.

Spygate was stupid. I know all the teams were doing it but they got a right royal rollocking and deserved it.

Did they learn a lesson? Did they F*ck!

Why, why, why lie to the Stewards. It's sheer lunacy and a real letdown to their fans.

Not a very happy bunny at the moment :(


Very harsh words there Knock On.

Your judging them on deliberately misleading the Stewards. Which McLaren have said they did not intend to do.

And going on previous Steward decisions, them saying they were deliberately mislead doesn't mean they were.

Is there any precedent that a driver gets DQ'd for 'deliberately' misleading?

Also, is there any chance of a published transcript of what has been discussed? So we can make our own minds up?

[Dave B]

Are you kidding me or you just don't pay attention to what you read?
I was talking about the verdict on the Kubica/Vettel incident, not about the one where Lewy lied to the stewards.

Also as far as I know the stewards in Sepang aren't the same ones as in Melbourne, only one of them is always present, the others not.
Two of the three are the same:


Source: Autosport (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74138) The FIA has recalled Olafur Gudmundsson and Steve Chopping, stewards from the Australian GP, to the hearing with Hamilton and Trulli - which is to take place at 1pm local time in Malaysia. In addition, Malaysian GP steward Surinder Thatti will join them to rule if the decision to demote Trulli should be upheld in Malaysia.



So what you mean is that the stewards are idiots unless you agree with them, in which case they're welcome to marry your sister any time they like?

[PolePosition_1]

We also have to wonder.

Just last year, it was said you cannot appeal a decision such as a drive through penalty / 25sec time penalty.

But they did for Torro Rosso in 2007, and have for Toyota in 2009, but not for McLaren in 2008.

Don't get me wrong, in all cases there is a strong case for both arguments in relation to the individual incidents. But there's such a strong correlation where it goes against McLaren, I can't help but feel there's a force out there against McLaren, and its filtering right down to Steward decisions.

[ioan]

ioan, this is just a cock-up in an F1 race. Nobody died, nobody committed a criminal offence.

That's exactly what I was pointing out to F1boat.


A sense of proportion wouldn't go amiss. Neither would a touch of consistency in your posts.

Am I behaving like this decision overturn by the FIA is the end of the world? Quite the opposite I would say.

My posts are pretty consistent from my POV, and I could return your comment with regard to your comments from my POV. Not that this would change anything in your life or my life for that matter.

I still stand for getting justice even if it's delivered late than not getting justice. Do you think it's wrong?

[woody2goody]

F1boat's right. Yes it is the right result; no-one is debating that, but to have it coming 4 days after the Grand Prix isn't right especially when the victim is one of the guys who was celebrating on the podium.

At least I can watch the post-race footage now without feeling bad for Jarno.

[Dave B]

Yeah they may not have had the info until yesterday, but this is really depressing for the fans.
Which is perhaps why, no matter how confusing it may be, they shouldn't rush to a decision without considering all the evidence.

Lewis was wrong to deliberately mislead the stewards, obviously, but all this could have been avoided if we didn't have a kangaroo court.

[BDunnell]

Very harsh words there Knock On.

Your judging them on deliberately misleading the Stewards. Which McLaren have said they did not intend to do.

And going on previous Steward decisions, them saying they were deliberately mislead doesn't mean they were.

But the judgement is quite clear: he has been excluded 'for providing evidence deliberately misleading to the stewards at the hearing on 29 March'. That's extremely specific.



Also, is there any chance of a published transcript of what has been discussed? So we can make our own minds up?

I think, in the interests of openness, this would be a very good idea. I must say that I am confused as to exactly what is meant to have taken place. Everything said about what actually happened has actually been quite vague, with the exception of the reason for the exclusion.

[PolePosition_1]

And rightly so!

For those questioning the decision and supporting cheaters and liars, what exactly are your values in life?!

Ironic coming from someone who idolises Michael Schumacher, a proven liar and cheat within his F1 career.

In answer to your question, probably same way you idolised Schumacher despite him being a liar and cheat.

[BDunnell]

Am I behaving like this decision overturn by the FIA is the end of the world? Quite the opposite I would say.

My posts are pretty consistent from my POV, and I could return your comment with regard to your comments from my POV. Not that this would change anything in your life or my life for that matter.

I still stand for getting justice even if it's delivered late than not getting justice. Do you think it's wrong?

No, but as Dave also says above, your opinion of the stewards and their expertise has clearly changed very suddenly indeed.

[AndyRAC]

I think justice has been done.

I have two minds on how results are made -

The correct result, which is what we all want - no matter how long after the race. That means hours, days, even a month.....

OR

The results published on the day are final and can't be appealed - like in most other sports.

Neither are perfect.....

[ioan]

Because I am a passionate fan and want to celebrate (or to mourn) the result. Where is the fun with celebrating a court decision? This is ridiculous. And about justice, I am watching F1 for fun, but still I think that what I suggested can balance things between "justice" and "fun". Right now it is very unbalanced. And if something is not fun for me, why watch it?

What is there to celebrate for a F1 GP results? It happens every 2nd week or so. I would call it something ordinary in my life to watch F1.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what you do, only that it might not be good for you to get sentimentally involved in things you can not control and that seem to affect you quite a lot.

Take it as an advice.

[BDunnell]

Well I am not questioning the decision by the stewards as I feel this is the right outcome as far as the race incident is concerned. What I am annoyed at is the fact that this has happened 4 days after the GP.

It's very much like the Brazil 2003 fiasco, in my opinion. It was absurd then, given the use of electronic race timing equipment, that they got the result of the GP wrong and it's absurd now that this couldn't have been sorted out almost immediately on the day given the amount of data that's available to the stewards.

[BDunnell]

What is there to celebrate for a F1 GP results? It happens every 2nd week or so. I would call it something ordinary in my life to watch F1.

I'm not saying that you shouldn't do what you do, only that it might not be good for you to get sentimentally involved in things you can not control and that seem to affect you quite a lot.

Take it as an advice.

I would hope that every F1 enthusiast finds it irritating, annoying or whatever when the result of a race isn't decided by what happens on track.

[ioan]

Are they not the same people who made the two decisions, namely the one about Kubica/Vettel and the initial decision about Hamilton/Trulli?

Yeah they were, but I said that they didn't turn a wheel in anger not that they can't hear a lie. Maybe you are mixing things a bit?

[BDunnell]

Yeah they were, but I said that they didn't turn a wheel in anger not that they can't hear a lie. Maybe you are mixing things to a level where you are not sure anymore which one is about exactly what?

No, I know exactly what I am saying, thank you very much. The 'confusion' seems to lie with you. I note too that I am not alone in thinking this. You were clearly questioning their competence. Now they have made a decision with which you agree, your tune changes.

[PolePosition_1]

My posts are pretty consistent from my POV,

Calling the same group of people idiots and getting better and better by the day consistant?

I think you mean to say you'll be happy as long as it goes way you want it to go.

[F1boat]

I would hope that every F1 enthusiast finds it irritating, annoying or whatever when the result of a race isn't decided by what happens on track.

I agree. Also, if F1 does not make you passionate about it, why bother :) Where's the fun? I can listen chill out or something :) Also, ioan, for a guy who freely gives such an advice, you sometimes SEEM to be far more emotional than me! :lol:

[Daniel]

If he mislead the stewards then he deserves it.

[Storm]

I still don't understand what exactly happened, anyone care to explain in simple language? I read the BBC news just now and some of the sentences just did my head in...normally I'm quite proud of my english language skills but that report was just baffling - especially the part where the guy explains why Hamilton was penalised or Trulli was not (as are many Beeb sports section news for that matter).

Also they just posted a news earlier today (and still there) about Toyota not appealing the decision of penalising Trulli. If that's the case how did the FIA overturn the original decision? and now McLaren say they won't appeal...does that mean tomorrow it will be overturned ? :p :

[ioan]

Two of the three are the same:

So what you mean is that the stewards are idiots unless you agree with them, in which case they're welcome to marry your sister any time they like?

What I mean is that I still disagree in regard with the Kubica/Vettel decision because they threw the "racing incident" term out through the window probably because they never raced at a serious level.

And what exactly does this have to do with them telling a lie from an honest answer?! This something people with commons sense should be able to do.

I have a doubt some people are fed up because the McLiars were caught with their pants down again and you lot are throwing a tantrum even if you try to keep a straight face and say that you accept what the stewards decided.

Justice was delivered and that's what matters in this case, which is now closed for me. :D

[CNR]

i hope that mclaren where not on some sort of probation after spygate.

[BDunnell]

What I mean is that I still disagree in regard with the Kubica/Vettel decision because they threw the "racing incident" term out through the window probably because they never raced at a serious level.

And what exactly does this have to do with them telling a lie from an honest answer?! This something people with commons sense should be able to do.

I have a doubt some people are fed up because the McLiars were caught with their pants down again and you lot are throwing a tantrum even if you try to keep a straight face and say that you accept what the stewards decided.

Justice was delivered and that's what matters in this case, which is now closed for me. :D

If this is not someone getting unduly worked up about something that's happened in F1, I don't know what is.

[ioan]

Ironic coming from someone who idolises Michael Schumacher, a proven liar and cheat within his F1 career.

In answer to your question, probably same way you idolised Schumacher despite him being a liar and cheat.

Looky looky another disgruntled McLiars fanatic! Why am I not surprised?!

First of all MS is not my idol, far from it.

Second, I'm yet to see Schumacher punished for lying like Hamilton. He might have done it, who am I to know all he does, but for sure he wasn't punished for anything like this half arsed lie from Hamy boy.

I know it's a sour pill, but you'll have to swallow it, again. :D

[woody2goody]

What I mean is that I still disagree in regard with the Kubica/Vettel decision because they threw the "racing incident" term out through the window probably because they never raced at a serious level.

And what exactly does this have to do with them telling a lie from an honest answer?! This something people with commons sense should be able to do.

I have a doubt some people are fed up because the McLiars were caught with their pants down again and you lot are throwing a tantrum even if you try to keep a straight face and say that you accept what the stewards decided.

Justice was delivered and that's what matters in this case, which is now closed for me. :D

For someone for whom watching F1 is ordinary, and who doesn't think other people should get emotionally involved in the outcome of races, you sure do have strong opinions...

And for the record McLaren and Ferrari are as bad as each other. That's a fair statement right there.

[ioan]

If this is not someone getting unduly worked up about something that's happened in F1, I don't know what is.

I'm getting worked up by the very poor posts posted by Dave and you, where you are airing your frustrations and try to support Arrows skewed views about this decision, while you are saying that you accept it.
That's how I see it.

Anyway, I'm back to work, so don't bother.

[ioan]

And for the record McLaren and Ferrari are as bad as each other. That's a fair statement right there.

What's fair for you is biased for me, the liars were caught again and again! Accept it.

[Bruce D]

So... 3 results in 4 days, witht the possibility of a 4th different result in 2 weeks time. So, as we have 17 races in the season, we can expect to see 68 different results this year. What a brilliant way for Bernie to "expand" the calendar. :P

At this rate they're going to have to come up with a rule that states "the champions of their respective championships must be declared by 31st December of that year and no further appeals will be heard after that". ;)

[BDunnell]

I'm getting worked up by the very poor posts posted by Dave and you, where you are airing your frustrations and try to support Arrows skewed views about this decision, while you are saying that you accept it.
That's how I see it.

Anyway, I'm back to work, so don't bother.

In what way are they poor?

[BDunnell]

So... 3 results in 4 days, witht the possibility of a 4th different result in 2 weeks time. So, as we have 17 races in the season, we can expect to see 68 different results this year. What a brilliant way for Bernie to "expand" the calendar. :P

:laugh:

Maybe the appeals could be heard in all the different countries that want to hold races.

[F1boat]

So... 3 results in 4 days, witht the possibility of a 4th different result in 2 weeks time. So, as we have 17 races in the season, we can expect to see 68 different results this year. What a brilliant way for Bernie to "expand" the calendar. :P

At this rate they're going to have to come up with a rule that states "the champions of their respective championships must be declared by 31st December of that year and no further appeals will be heard after that". ;)

Well said!

[woody2goody]

What's fair for you is biased for me, the liars were caught again and again! Accept it.

I do, hence 'McLaren and Ferrari are as bad as each other'.

Oh, you meant I should admit Ferrari have never done anything wrong ever. Sorry, my bad.

[dj_bytedisaster]

Man, that thing's really rich :eek: Protesting a result and then providing false evidence, now that's really where the excrements collide with the portable rotating cooling device.

I'm usually not very fond of Stewards, expecially if they eff up as much as they did in Melbourne, but for once we got to give credits where credits are due. They had the balls to go and reverse a wrong decision. And while we're at it they might as well want to look into the Vettel/Kubica decision again.

As for McLaren. What the bloody hell are those cretins think they're doing? Shouldn't they be busy enough sorting out the mess that is the design of their car instead of blatantly lying to gain one lousy position. Sorry, but I can't muster any respect for that. This is just bad. :mad:

[janneppi]

More talking about the topic and less of the never ending inane pissing contest.

Mmkay.

[Hawkmoon]

I don't like McLaren. Never have. Never will. I dislike Hamilton and loathe Ron Dennis. I was grinning like a Cheshire cat when I read the headline about Hamilton's exculsion. But something is decidedly odd about this affair.

Why on earth would McLaren and/or Hamilton lie to the stewards when they knew there was clear evidence available that would expose them? They weren't even going to get much out of it. There was no championship to be won like Brazil 2007 and their fuel temp appeal/clarrification. They weren't even going to get a race win out of it or rob a potential championship rival out of points. Hell, at this stage they aren't even in the championship hunt themselves.

They were in trouble on Saturday after qualifying but Hamilton drove well and they had to be happy with 4th. Getting third after Trulli went off must have been the cherry on top.

Why were they not happy with the result? Third was Hamilton's by right after Trulli's off so why slow down, let Trulli back in front and then lie about it afterwards?

I'm puzzled by the whole affair. I'm still amused as it always warms the cockles of my heart to see Team Integrity in trouble, but I'm puzzled all the same. :confused:

[BDunnell]

Why on earth would McLaren and/or Hamilton lie to the stewards when they knew there was clear evidence available that would expose them?

A very legitimate question, but one that could be asked of all sorts of people who do wrong in all sorts of walks of life.

[Garry Walker]

hahaha.
Does anyone know exactly was in their stories that was a lie, I have not had much time to follow F1 news the last couple of days.

[Garry Walker]

Why on earth would McLaren and/or Hamilton lie to the stewards when they knew there was clear evidence available that would expose them?

Easy. They have no integrity. Lying comes naturally to them, like being stupid comes naturally to a left-winger.

[BDunnell]

Does anyone know exactly was in their stories that was a lie, I have not had much time to follow F1 news the last couple of days.

This is the puzzling thing. All we know is that they deliberately set out to mislead the stewards, according to the verdict, which is pretty clear. Then we have a series of extremely vague descriptions of what happened, notably from Trulli and Whitmarsh, neither of whom have actually said what happened. So we are no clearer about the details.

[Mauri A]

As for McLaren. What the bloody hell are those cretins think they're doing? Shouldn't they be busy enough sorting out the mess that is the design of their car instead of blatantly lying to gain one lousy position. Sorry, but I can't muster any respect for that. This is just bad. :mad: [/QUOTE]

Do not blame Hamilton because he must do and say exactly what Dennis/Whitmarsh tell him to do. May be his comment after the race to a journalist was a slip and the result we now know.

[PolePosition_1]

But the judgement is quite clear: he has been excluded 'for providing evidence deliberately misleading to the stewards at the hearing on 29 March'. That's extremely specific.



I think, in the interests of openness, this would be a very good idea. I must say that I am confused as to exactly what is meant to have taken place. Everything said about what actually happened has actually been quite vague, with the exception of the reason for the exclusion.

I'm not saying that what is being penalised isn't specific. I agree it is.

But its all to do with the wording. And how they interpretted the wording that is subjective.

McLaren have stated that they didn't deliberately mislead them. They wouldn't have said this is the wording of what they said wasn't open to interpretation.

And going from previous decisions of race stewards, you have to question their judgement.

A classic example would be penalising Hamilton in Spa last year, and not Schumacher in Hungary 2006 so doing what was essentially exactly the same.

I'd like to point out I'm not a Hamilton fan, I'm an Alonso fan, so Hamilton would near the bottom of the list of drivers I like to see do well, but the grey area'd decisions which have gone against him makes it hard to not see a correlation of decisions which continously go against McLaren.

[Dave B]

hahaha.
Does anyone know exactly was in their stories that was a lie, I have not had much time to follow F1 news the last couple of days.


Easy. They have no integrity. Lying comes naturally to them, like being stupid comes naturally to a left-winger.

Translation: I know nothing about this story but that won't stop me having an opinion on it.

[PolePosition_1]

Easy. They have no integrity. Lying comes naturally to them, like being stupid comes naturally to a left-winger.


Nice to see objectivity and judging on individual instances rather than stereotyping and making gneralisations.

[ArrowsFA1]

McLaren's version of events (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74152)


...we then spoke to Race Control, to explain that and ask if we could retake that place. At the time, understandably Race Control was busy and they were not able to give us an answer. We asked several times, but clearly they were very busy...
:laugh: :laugh:

Martin: "Charlie, we need a ruling."
Charlie: "Who is it?"
Martin: "McLaren. We need to know if we can retake the place."
Charlie: (****, Spa again. Max warned me about this) "Sorry Martin, I'm very busy right now."

There's a sting in the tail as well:

The FIA said Hamilton and McLaren could face further sanctions for the breach of article 151C.
So this is all far from over :rolleyes:

[Tumbo]

how about we wait to hear the tapes before we say the FIA have got it right - sofar we have heard the Toyota tape of Trulli saying he didn't know when Hamilton overtook him and that he thought Hamilton had given him back the place but wasn't sure - we don't know what went on in the McLaren garage but ppl are jumping down their throats w/ no evidence to back it up other than an FIA ruling which doesn't favour the initially known state of play.

I remember certain members throwing a tantrum start of the yr when it was suggested that the Ferrari exhaust was illegal and they carried on about evidence and the like blah blah - you don't like McLaren fine, you don't like Hamilton fine but come up w/ some logical arguments based on facts......no wait we can't cause the FIA refuse to give us the whole story - matter is decided yet the recordings are not freely available why??

[Robinho]

not sure about this, agree Trulli should never have been punished for what i thought was a mistake on both sides.

i would think McLaren didn't come out a lie directly on th subject, but it sounds like the evidence they presented to explain what happened excluded something that indicated motive at the every least.

If that is true then thats pretty disgraceful, even if they only presented the minimum evidence that supported their case, from a sporting point of view, if they knew they could get Trulli off the hook, and just take 4th themselves they should have done. if they deliberately attempted to take 3rd and then cover up then thats even worse - i hope its just a bit of a mistake and creative interpretation of the events, we don't need any more scandal/cheating etc to sour things

[ioan]

hahaha.
Does anyone know exactly was in their stories that was a lie, I have not had much time to follow F1 news the last couple of days.

Hamilton claimed when asked by the stewards that he didn't slow almost to a standstill to let Trulli through. He said he did go towards the side of the track and maybe slowed a bit because he was busy trying to read the SC instructions on his display.

However not long after the interview in which Hamilton claimed that the team asked him to let Trulli by was made public.

The stewards also realized that by the time Trulli re-passed Hamilton the SC message was not displayed anymore on the drivers displays.

So they got hold of the audio recordings between teams and drivers and confronted Hamilton with the facts.

I would have loved to see Lewy's face when they asked him why he lied!

[Garry Walker]

Translation: I know nothing about this story but that won't stop me having an opinion on it.
I know that the stewards said McLaren and Hamilton provided misleading evidence, they lied.
McLaren showed a lot during the spygate about their integrity, so them being caught lying AGAIN comes as a no surprise to me.

[Garry Walker]

I would have loved to see Lewy's face when they asked him why he lied!

I think we all agree that would have been an hilarious sight :D
Thanks for the explanation.

[ioan]

There's a sting in the tail as well:

The FIA said Hamilton and McLaren could face further sanctions for the breach of article 151C.
So this is all far from over :rolleyes:

Is this the famous article about bringing the sport into disrepute?
If yes than I'm all for it, liars are not for the image of the sport, changing the result 3 times because of their cheating and lying is also bad for the image of the sport.

I would throw in a ban for 2 races, like BAR Honda got in 2005 for lying about their fuel tanks.
I have a feeling that this lying is something pathological at Mclaren and they need a good kick in their backside in order to walk straight again.

[ioan]

I think we all agree that would have been an hilarious sight :D
Thanks for the explanation.

You're welcome!

[Garry Walker]

I have a feeling that this lying is something pathological at Mclaren and they need a good kick in their backside in order to walk straight again.
One would think that a 100 million fine and public worldwide humiliation not that long ago would do it, but no. But then again, life has easily shown that liars will always be liars, no matter how many times they are caught.

[Valve Bounce]

We also have to wonder.

Just last year, it was said you cannot appeal a decision such as a drive through penalty / 25sec time penalty.

But they did for Torro Rosso in 2007, and have for Toyota in 2009, but not for McLaren in 2008.

Don't get me wrong, in all cases there is a strong case for both arguments in relation to the individual incidents. But there's such a strong correlation where it goes against McLaren, I can't help but feel there's a force out there against McLaren, and its filtering right down to Steward decisions.

It's called The Max Factor.

[gm99]

:laugh:

Maybe the appeals could be heard in all the different countries that want to hold races.


Brilliant idea! That way Bernie's long-standing wish of bringing F1 into the cities could also be fullfilled. And it gives a whole new meaning to "circuit court" :D

[savage86]

I know that the stewards said McLaren and Hamilton provided misleading evidence, they lied.
McLaren showed a lot during the spygate about their integrity, so them being caught lying AGAIN comes as a no surprise to me.

I like Lewis but agree with the decision. But just remember guys past world champions have lied several times. Senna for instance about the 1990 incident in Japan. More recently MS in Monaco 2006 when he first of all cheated by intentionally driving into the barrier then lied to everyone saying it was an accident. It surprises me that Lewis did lie how did he think he was going to get away with it??? uuugh it makes things such a farce.

[Triumph]

All Lewis needs to do is carry on as normal and talent will prevail.

He has already proven he can cope with outrageous manipulation of the championship, and he still won, so it's business as usual as far as I'm concerned.

:-)

[Valve Bounce]

More talking about the topic and less of the never ending inane pissing contest.

Mmkay.

Could you please explain this directive so that we can comply with your order?
Quite frankly, I don't see any pissing around here, or pino would have spoken up much earlier, and dealt with it.

[Tazio]

I would have loved to see Lewy's face when they asked him why he lied!


The FIA said Hamilton and McLaren could face further sanctions for the breach of article 151C.

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating.
Sophocles

[woody2goody]

It's called The Max Factor.

In 2008 at Spa the difference is that the decision was not found to be wrong. That doesn't mean to say that it was right, but it was deemed so in the eyes of the stewards at the time and afterwards.

Look at the Bourdais penalty in Fuji last year. It makes no difference whether it was a Toro Rosso, McLaren or whoever they will still dish penalties out no matter who they've looked at appeals for in the past.

I'm convinced in this situation that McLaren tried to swindle Trulli out of his podium.

Remember though people, Ferrari are not angels just incase some of you were starting to lapse back into that deluded state of yours...

[woody2goody]

I would prefer even to fail with honor than win by cheating.
Sophocles

The sad part about this for me is that Hamilton drove really well, he didn't fail, but McLaren and their cold ways have cost their driver valuable points. makes me wonder if it was the team manipulating Hamilton and Alonso against each other in 07...

[Dave B]

Q&A with Martin Whitmash on Autosport's site, including an answer which appears to put to bed this idea that Hamilton deliberately slowed to let Trulli pass:



Q. Lewis after the race only spoke about getting past Trulli, but never mentioned stopping and giving the place back…
MW: He didn't stop, and the telemetry data which was shown to the stewards today showed that the lap on which he was overtaken was no different from the succeeding lap that was under the safety car. It was difficult conditions but there was no evidence from the data that Lewis did anything that induced Trulli to go past.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74153

[ioan]

Won't believe anything coming from McLaren anymore, it seems that Lewis is the most honest of them all.

PS: If he didn't do anything wrong than why is that they do not appeal the decision?

[Valve Bounce]

In 2008 at Spa the difference is that the decision was not found to be wrong. That doesn't mean to say that it was right, but it was deemed so in the eyes of the stewards at the time and afterwards.

Look at the Bourdais penalty in Fuji last year. It makes no difference whether it was a Toro Rosso, McLaren or whoever they will still dish penalties out no matter who they've looked at appeals for in the past.

I'm convinced in this situation that McLaren tried to swindle Trulli out of his podium.

Remember though people, Ferrari are not angels just incase some of you were starting to lapse back into that deluded state of yours...

I think the severity of this case was that the original ruling by the stewards in Oz cost Jarno all his points - which makes this case different. As I understand it, McLaren protested the results then lied to have Lewis given P3 but resulting in Jarno's penalty excluding him from points rather than just a juxtaposition of the placings.

Maybe the tapes will only be released after the next hearing against Lewis Hamilton and/or McLaren. First, they have to consult Bernie to see which outcome will not affect attendance at the subsequent races or the TV audience numbers.

[Tazio]

The sad part about this for me is that Hamilton drove really well, he didn't fail, but McLaren and their cold ways have cost their driver valuable points. makes me wonder if it was the team manipulating Hamilton and Alonso against each other in 07...I was referring to McLaren, and taking a little poetic licence! I think the important thing with the information we have now is that Trulli is not penalized! To me it's like the instant replay rule in American Football. As much as it takes away from the spectacle, and continuity of the game. They do their best to get it right in the end.

[SGWilko]

Now I thought this was clear cut. The Stewards/FIA stated that either McLaren and or Lewis 'deliberately' lied or mislead the stewards.

We now have confirmation from MW that Lewis did not, as Trulli has stated, slow down so much to make him think he had a problem.

I believe no one any more.

WHat a mockery this sport has become....

[ArrowsFA1]

You do wonder what might have happened had the FIA Race Director hadn't been "too busy".

It was a simple, uncontroversial, incident. Trulli goes off track leading to Hamilton passing him. Apparently Hamilton was perfectly entitled to retain 3rd position, but it seems clear there was uncertainty within McLaren whether this was the case or not.

In those circumstances the FIA Race Director should be in a position to give a ruling immediately.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

All the McLaren and Hamilton haters are just jumping to conclusions that suit them and their position. How do we know this isn't just yet more incompetence from the stewards which I might add transcends just the handling of Hamilton and McLaren.

I don't like all the dicking around with the results after the fact and that began with Trulli's original penalty. NASCAR's approach is better in my opinion.

[Dave B]

FIA statement and radio transmissions now online:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Pages/f1_stewards_decision.aspx

Transcript of radio conversation here:
http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/f1releases/2009/Documents/radio_transcript_2.pdf

It's a job to see how Hamilton did anything wrong, and in fact he pushed the team to check with Charlie Whiting (yes, I know, that didn't exactly work in Spa). It seems a simple cock-up by McLaren.

"b. Furthermore, the radio exchanges between the driver and the Team contain two explicit orders from the Team to let the Toyota pass."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74158

Throw the book at the cheating scum.

[Tazio]

Q. Lewis after the race only spoke about getting past Trulli, but never mentioned stopping and giving the place back…
MW: He didn't stop, and the telemetry data which was shown to the stewards today showed that the lap on which he was overtaken was no different from the succeeding lap that was under the safety car. It was difficult conditions but there was no evidence from the data that Lewis did anything that induced Trulli to go past
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.


Hamlet Act 3, scene 2, 222–230

[Bobby_Hamlin]

Ok that makes sense now it's been explained. I don't know what they were thinking and either Whitmarsh is ignorant of the facts or he's being extremely economical with the truth.

"Lewis, you need to let the Toyota through"

[Brown, Jon Brow]

This is confusing :confused: Maybe they should have a race to decide what positions they get.

[Dave B]

The trouble is, we're still unclear as to whether or not Lewis acted incorrectly on the track.

He's been penalised for deliberately misleading the stewards, which is reasonable enough, but what we still don't know is the protocol when somebody temporarily leaves the track under Safety Car conditions. The radio transmissions indicate that, although woefully ignorant of the rules, McLaren and Hamilton were trying desperately to do the right thing.

The FIA urgently need to clarify this.

[Bobby_Hamlin]

The trouble is, we're still unclear as to whether or not Lewis acted incorrectly on the track.

He's been penalised for deliberately misleading the stewards, which is reasonable enough, but what we still don't know is the protocol when somebody temporarily leaves the track under Safety Car conditions.

The FIA urgently need to clarify this.

I thought it had been clarified that Trulli was off the circuit and it was a legal pass. The issue here seems to me that with all that has gone before it McLaren over-reacted and told Hamilton to let him back past which screwed themselves, because presumably after the race no penalty could have or should have been assessed to Trulli for illegally passing under the safety car because McLaren gave up the position.

Perhaps McLaren realised that to get the third placefor Hamilton, Trulli would have to be given a penatly and tried to pull a fast one? Pretty silly when you consider the radio evidence if that were the case.

[Tazio]

During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake.

Both the driver and the Team Manager stated that no such instruction had been given. The Race Director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so. :mark:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74158





"b. Furthermore, the radio exchanges between the driver and the Team contain two explicit orders from the Team to let the Toyota pass."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74158

[SGWilko]

The trouble is, we're still unclear as to whether or not Lewis acted incorrectly on the track.

He's been penalised for deliberately misleading the stewards, which is reasonable enough, but what we still don't know is the protocol when somebody temporarily leaves the track under Safety Car conditions. The radio transmissions indicate that, although woefully ignorant of the rules, McLaren and Hamilton were trying desperately to do the right thing.

The FIA urgently need to clarify this.

A full transcript of the stewards interview with LH and the McLaren team manager would be useful also.

I think I feel sorry for McLaren, they were buggered by eejot stewards in Spa '08, and their inability to answer a simple yes or no has buggered them again. You can understand why they gave Trulli his position back, as Spa clearly set the prescedent for them.

What excuse does Charly Bucket have for not responding to McLaren? Was he dropping a log at the time or what?

McLaren and Hamilton were trying desperately to do the right thing.


And then did totally the wrong thing.

[SGWilko]

And then did totally the wrong thing.

Can't do right for doing wrong........

[Dave B]

And then did totally the wrong thing.
Yes. The supreme irony is that if they hadn't been so paranoid about getting a penalty they could have been honest and upfront with the stewards and almost certainly kept - at worst - the 4th place.

Silly, silly buggers.

[N. Jones]

Can't we get through one race without controversy?

[Dave B]

I've just realised that somewhere in amongst all this BS I've crept over 20,000 posts. I don't know whether to feel proud or ashamed!

[Big Ben]

I wish there was some consistency with regard to the 25sec-penalty being the equivalent of a drive-through penalty and therefore not subject to later review. If the same incident had taken place during the first safety-car period, Trulli would have been given and most likely served a drive-through penalty and there would have been no way to correct the result afterwards (or would they have subtracted 25sec from his finishing time?).

It should be unchallengeable just like a referee's decision in football: if a penalty kick is awarded by the referee and a goal scored as a result, the goal remains a goal even if it is later proven that there should not have been a penalty in the first place, for instance because the fouled player took a dive. It may be harsh & unfair in some situations, but at least you know the outcome of the game/race when the whistle blows/the checkered flag drops.

I am really fed up with not knowing the final results of a Grand Prix for days after I finished watching it...

You seem to forget that Hamilton got 3rd after the races ended... hadn't that bothered you in the first place?

I've just realised that somewhere in amongst all this BS I've crept over 20,000 posts. I don't know whether to feel proud or ashamed!

That depends on if you've misled the moderators, doesn't it?

[RJL25]

Listen lets just break it down and make it as clear as possible.

Jarno ran wide and Lewis, probably quite legally, passed him as he was off the circuit.

Lewis was then advised by Mclaren to let Jarno back past, both Lewis and his engineer discussed the issue at length, the order was definetly given to allow Jarno to pass, Lewis definetly slowed to allow Jarno to pass.

After the race both Lewis and his team manager stated that they did NOT tell Lewis to pass, further Lewis state that he did NOT allow Jarno to pass.

Both of those things where a lie, they where missleading, and it would be very difficult to argue that they did not intentionally attempt to misslead the stewards...

Lewis did not have to allow Jarno to pass, thats not the issue however, they DID allow Jarno to pass, they then lied about this in order to have Jarno penalised. They stuffed up, they then tried to cover there tracks by LIEING to the stewards about it in an attempt to have Jarno penalised.

Therefore, quite clearly Lewis deserved to be disqualified. There is absolutely nothing anti-Lewis or Mclaren about it, its just black and white, I find in incredible that anyone can dissagree...

[dj_bytedisaster]

If that
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74158
is true, they were conciously and deliberately telling lies, in which case a ban for 2 or more races is the only acceptable punishment. Sorry, but blatant fraud knowing that it'll put a competitor at an ill-gotten disadvantage is a low as it can get.

I liked Hamilton up to this point, but his success has gotten to his head as it seems and maybe the youngster needs to be administered a lesson in humility. This even beats the quite dubious exploits of Schumacher by miles. :mad:

[Knock-on]

Who is LW on the transcript?

I think I can see where the confusion occured now.

McLaren did instruct Lewis to let the Toyota past but he disagreed. They were trying to check whether to let JT past but before they could sort it, it seems JT took matters into his own hands.

Would love to see the telemetry of whether Lewis slowed but there doesn't seem to be a deliberate attempt and perhaps I was a bit harsh. If he did slow, then he's banged to rights.

More to come out about this I think.

More to come out about this I think.

Yep....Article 151c.

[ArrowsFA1]

I find in incredible that anyone can dissagree...
The FIA say the question was asked whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake, and Dave Ryan and Lewis both said no.

The radio transcript has the team saying "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." Obviously, the team then spent time attempting to get direction from Race Control, so there was uncertainty.

Was it an instruction, or more a belief that they had to let Trulli through or they would be penalised?

The FIA say the question was asked whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake, and Dave Ryan and Lewis both said no.

The radio transcript has the team saying "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." Obviously, the team then spent time attempting to get direction from Race Control, so there was uncertainty.

Was it an instruction, or more a belief that they had to let Trulli through or they would be penalised?

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

[RJL25]

McLaren did instruct Lewis to let the Toyota past but he disagreed. They were trying to check whether to let JT past but before they could sort it, it seems JT took matters into his own hands.

Mate did you listen to the transcript?

LH: "I've already let him past"

Jarno didn't take matters into his own hands at all, Lewis, on instruction from his team, slowed down and let Jarno past.

His team stuffed up, they then lied to cover it up.

dj_bytedisaster - maybe a little bit too harsh on Lewis, i'm quite sure he was just saying what Mclaren told him to say. The question is should Lewis have stood on his own two feet and told the truth, rather then doing what he was told by Mclaren... probably should have told the truth...

[rabf1]

Lewis intentionally let Trulli by. I don't see how you can penalize Trulli for passing Lewis when Lewis let him thru. And the stewards asked Lewis and MaC if Lewis let Trulli pass and they lied and said no.

So Lewis is a liar and a cheater and so is MaC.

There was clearly confusion inside MaC as to whether Lewis' original pass of Trulli was legal. The whole thing was bungled by MaC (first telling Lewis to let Trulli back thru and then retracting it and saying hold position until they get a ruling and then Lewis saying he already let Trulli thru). A real sportsman would just tell the stewards what happened (but that likely would have left Trulli in front) so Lewis lied (=cheating) to try and steal a podium.

[RJL25]

Arrows you cannot possibly be serious... "You have to let the Toyota through, let the Toyota through now"

HOW IS THAT NOT AN INSTRUCTION!

come on you may like Lewis and Mclaren but they stuffed up and then lied about it! Its as black and white as it gets!!!

[RJL25]

Arrows - the question of whether or not Lewis HAD to let Jarno through or not is irrelivant, the facts are they where asked a question "did you give an instruction for Lewis to allow Jarno to pass", they said "no" when they clearly did. They lied to the stewards, thats what the penalty is for, end of discussion!

[woody2goody]

So does anyone know what article 151c is about? Is it about bringing the sport into disrepute or something like that?

If it is what are the penalties?

PS I don't think Hamilton puposely cheated, however I do think McLaren tried to make out that Trulli barged his way back into third place which is how it sounded on the TV coverage.

[RJL25]

Well after listening to the two recordings I think it is clear there was alot of confusion between Lewis and the team. Mr Whiting may not have given a directive as quick as Mclaren would have liked and with all the confusion, Lewis made the pass. Confusion + Adrenaline = Mistakes IMO... It seems from the radio feed that they tried to comply with the rules.

You guys must have inside knowledge here as I fail to see the 'Cheating Scum' element???

Mate are you serious? The stewards asked "did you give an instruction to allow Jarno to pass" then answer to which is yes they did, clearly, but instead they said no we didnt. That is a missleading statement, they did it to paint the picture that Jarno just passed under the safety car, even though he only passed because Lewis slowed down to allow him to pass.

[ioan]

I think I feel sorry for McLaren, they were buggered by eejot stewards in Spa '08, and their inability to answer a simple yes or no has buggered them again. You can understand why they gave Trulli his position back, as Spa clearly set the prescedent for them.

It may be. But why oh why did they contest Trulli's 3rd place knowing full well that they were the ones who put him back on 3rd place?!
That is hypocrisy of a level that I only saw practiced by McLaren in my whole life.

[RJL25]

heres the thing, if Jarno had just passed Lewis under the safety car, then that is illegal and he is to be penalised.

HOWEVER

If Lewis slowed down and allowed him to pass, then he CAN NOT be penalised.

Mclaren, knowing this, stated to the stewards that Lewis did NOT allow Jarno to pass, therefore Jarno should be penalised.

THAT WAS A LIE! Because they DID instruct Lewis to allow Jarno to pass, and Lewis subsequently, whether he was confused or not, DID SLOW DOWN AND ALLOW JARNO TO PASS!

That means that Jarno can NOT be penalised, however Mclaren LIED saying that they didn't allow him to pass in an attempt to have Jarno penalised.

It's for that reason, that lie, that they have been penalised.

[RJL25]

Dont forget, and this is the key, Mclaren appealed Trulli's third place on the grounds that he passed under the safety car, knowing full well that he only passed because Lewis allowed him too! They knew full well that they made the mistake and allowed him to pass and therefore Jarno's third place was legal, however they contested the decision on the basis that they did not allow Jarno to pass, even though they DID!

It was a lie, a dirty rotten tactic to have Jarno penalised.

[rabf1]

The truthful answers should have been Lewis was instructed to Trulli thru but then we retracted it and told him to hold position but it was tooo late and he had already let him by.

My question is why did MaC give Lewis the instruction to let Trulli thru? I assume it was becasue Lewis' original pass of Trulli was made after the SC light went on. Trulli slowed and Lewis was unsure and made the pass. It sounds like the original pass was illegal so if they had waited for a ruling, it seems like Lewis would have had to let Trulli by anyway.

[callum122]

Why do the stewards have to hand out such an unnecessary penalty when they could easily admit they made a slight mistake, to more of an extent McLaren also and just undo the tangle. Hand back the placings, Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th. The stewards make sure McLaren are portrayed as evildoers. McLaren might not be perfect but I'm sick of arrogant pricks in F1.

[RJL25]

In a nutshell, Mclaren made a mistake in telling Lewis to allow Jarno to pass, they then attempted to blame Jarno for their own mistake by intentionally missleading the stewards, and for that reason they where disqualified.

It really is very simple.

[rabf1]

Ok, but what was MaC's reasoning for thinking they had to let Trulli thru?

They had to have been thinking the original pass of Trulli was illegal.

[ioan]

I think I can see where the confusion occured now.

McLaren did instruct Lewis to let the Toyota past but he disagreed. They were trying to check whether to let JT past but before they could sort it, it seems JT took matters into his own hands.

This is as clear as it can be that Hamilton let Trulli through and not that Trulli took anything into his own hands:



LH: I let him past already.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74159

[ioan]

Pathetic. Absolutely pathetic.

I completely agree, there are English people who does not understand the use of imperative when they do not want to believe things that happened.

[ioan]

In a nutshell, Mclaren made a mistake in telling Lewis to allow Jarno to pass, they then attempted to blame Jarno for their own mistake by intentionally missleading the stewards, and for that reason they where disqualified.

Exactly!


It really is very simple.

Not to everyone, it seems.

[CNR]

http://f1jam.com/2009/03/31/hamilton-passes-trulli-under-safety-car-video/

video taken down

Hamilton did the right thing by returning the postition to Trulli. When the safety car started Trulli was ahead of Hamilton and considering that both the cars were running very close to each other at the end, it made sense for Trulli to be ahead of Hamilton

[RJL25]

ioan - I agree, the only people who seem to not agree here have little Brittish flags under there names.. they just don't want to accept it and think the FIA are a bunch of nasties, which usually they are, but in this case quite clearly Mclaren stuffed up and where penalised accordingly.

They didn't seem to have a problem when it was Jarno who was penalised!!!

[ioan]

Lets just look forward to the rest of a potentially fantastic season with alot less politics...

I agree, if they ban McLiars for a few races we will more than certainly get a trouble free (less hypocrisy, cheating and lying) season.
I'm all for it!

[henners88]

I completely agree, there are English people who does not understand the use of imperative when they do not want to believe things that happened.

Lets not bring race into it, when people don't accept your point of view...

[callum122]

I can accept and understand McLaren being disqualified even though I find it unnecessary. What gets me are the stewards who can never admit they didn't deal with it perfectly and could've potentially prevented the fiasco initially.

[ioan]

ioan - I agree, the only people who seem to not agree here have little Brittish flags under there names.. they just don't want to accept it and think the FIA are a bunch of nasties, which usually they are, but in this case quite clearly Mclaren stuffed up and where penalised accordingly.

It's the very same people who never admitted that McLaren were at fault in 2007, not even after McLaren publicly acknowledged that they were involved in the spying affair.



They didn't seem to have a problem when it was Jarno who was penalised!!!

Ofcourse not, because it was benefiting their beloved McL's.

[race_director]

GOOD

The cheats have been nailed again .
McLaren under Ron was bad . now it is worst

[ioan]

I can accept and understand McLaren being disqualified even though I find it unnecessary. What gets me are the stewards who can never admit they didn't deal with it perfectly and could've potentially prevented the fiasco initially.

No one is perfect, not even leis and not even the "perfect" McLaren team.

[henners88]

ioan - I agree, the only people who seem to not agree here have little Brittish flags under there names.. they just don't want to accept it and think the FIA are a bunch of nasties, which usually they are, but in this case quite clearly Mclaren stuffed up and where penalised accordingly.

They didn't seem to have a problem when it was Jarno who was penalised!!!


Incidently where is your little flag? :)

[ioan]

Lets not bring race into it, when people don't accept your point of view...

:laugh: :laugh:

Since when are English people a race?! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

[henners88]

:laugh: :laugh:

Since when are English people a race?! :rotflmao: :rotflmao:


Oh dear, well I think this thread has run its course and is no longer about the subject originally discussed..... Case Closed :D

[goodf1fun]

fair and square. he should receive also a penalty for next 5 races

[woody2goody]

Why do the stewards have to hand out such an unnecessary penalty when they could easily admit they made a slight mistake, to more of an extent McLaren also and just undo the tangle. Hand back the placings, Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th. The stewards make sure McLaren are portrayed as evildoers. McLaren might not be perfect but I'm sick of arrogant pricks in F1.

But obviously to lie about an on-track incident to the stewards is a disqualifiable offence. If they had told the truth straight away then there would have been a good chance that the positions would have been Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th.

But they have to do the McLaren/Ferrari usual thing and try to gain as much as they can from the situation. It's their own fault, they've essentially lost their driver 5 points.

[woody2goody]

It may be. But why oh why did they contest Trulli's 3rd place knowing full well that they were the ones who put him back on 3rd place?!
That is hypocrisy of a level that I only saw practiced by McLaren in my whole life.

Apart from when Ferrari and Schumi insisted he hadn't blocked the track at Monaco in quali. The stewards saw through that one as well Ioan mate. :D

[dj_bytedisaster]

I'm currently discussing this in two forums simultaneously and if you think some people read that through Hamilton filtered glasses, you should see the thread in the finalgear forums. There's SRSLY people who think that it is all a FIA consiracy because they hate black people. It's been a while since I *facepalm*'ed that often :laugh: :laugh:

[Bagwan]

This is justice .

For those who criticize the FIA , how would you feel if all this came out and he got to keep Jarno's trophy ?

Had Lewis given the same interview that he gave to SPEED to the stewards , he likely would have kept his 4th position .

He lied when saying he didn't slow .
He lied when saying he didn't let Jarno pass .
His team lied saying there was no order .

His team protested , knowing they had instructed the pass .
Knowing they had neglected to note this to the stewards , they were willing to accept an erroneous decision , withholding evidence essential to making a correct , informed decision .

The stewards must rely on the drivers to give a correct account of any situation on track , to properly determine any outcome .They use all the information they have , to determine whether the situation warrants penalty or not .

Whether Hamilton was instructed to answer with a lie is not known .
However , we know both his team and he did lie , misleading the stewards into a penalty and a trophy .
I would thing that the most likely scenario is that McLaren were not aware of the SPEED interview when they decided thier stance for the stewards's interview .

More the fool Hamilton , for screwing it up .
But , more the cheats McLaren , for trying to dupe the FIA , and screw a fellow competitor .

Now , here's a problem for FOTA to sort out .

[Daika]

Does the FIA control the entire web? I just want to see the incident, every video is taken down. Perhaps Fox should hire people from the FIA to get Wolverine offline...

[race_director]

But obviously to lie about an on-track incident to the stewards is a disqualifiable offence. If they had told the truth straight away then there would have been a good chance that the positions would have been Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th.

But they have to do the McLaren/Ferrari usual thing and try to gain as much as they can from the situation. It's their own fault, they've essentially lost their driver 5 points.

Come on Ferrari do not cheat like this . they do it in a more smart ways . They dont act like a 1 yrs old kid .

[Bagwan]

Does the FIA control the entire web? I just want to see the incident, every video is taken down. Perhaps Fox should hire people from the FIA to get Wolverine offline...

What do you want to see ?

[ArrowsFA1]

Arrows you cannot possibly be serious... "You have to let the Toyota through, let the Toyota through now"

HOW IS THAT NOT AN INSTRUCTION!
The instruction was "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." That could be seen as a delibertate attempt to dupe Trulli and gain 3rd position because McLaren knew a penalty would follow, or a belief on McLaren's part that they would be penalised if they didn't let Trulli by i.e. 'we need to let Trulli through to avoid a penalty, let the Toyota through now.'

Arrows - the question of whether or not Lewis HAD to let Jarno through or not is irrelivant.
I don't believe it is. Clearly there was doubt. Uncertainty formed the circumstances around which this all happened. This uncertainty could, and should, have been cleared up by the FIA Race Director as it happened.

[Tazio]

I can accept and understand McLaren being disqualified even though I find it unnecessary. What gets me are the stewards who can never admit they didn't deal with it perfectly and could've potentially prevented the fiasco initially.They have dealt with it. They are correct in disqualifying the Hamilton car. They could have gotten this thing the way it should have been if they weren’t lied to in the hour after the race.

During the event they were in the process of sorting out all issues involved in a serious crash, a safety car situation, and the goings on of every car on the track, not just the McLaren of Hamilton! In the confusion Hamilton let Trulli through. A mistake they should have been able to live with. But it appears they weren't able to accept a cock-up which is most regrettable. If they doubted it before, I'm sure that unless they want further punitive action, they know now, in no uncertain terms, they are not above the rules. The stewards/FIA will continue to mete out justice until they do.

BTW How are you feeling about our sig bet? ;)

[dj_bytedisaster]

Come on Ferrari do not cheat like this . they do it in a more smart ways . They dont act like a 1 yrs old kid .

Yeah, but that doesn't make it any less despicable. I think McLaren should be punished here. That's the second time they've been blatantly lying to the officials as a team and that's taking an axe to the already badly damaged image of the sport. What I don't get my head around. They clearly risk loosing a couple of sponsors (some might use this as an excuse to pull out) and that in a time where they aren't exactly lining up to com into the sport. Someone must have a serious case of brainfade in the upper echelons of McMerc.

[Bagwan]

The instruction was "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." That could be seen as a delibertate attempt to dupe Trulli and gain 3rd position because McLaren knew a penalty would follow, or a belief on McLaren's part that they would be penalised if they didn't let Trulli by i.e. 'we need to let Trulli through to avoid a penalty, let the Toyota through now.'

I don't believe it is. Clearly there was doubt. Uncertainty formed the circumstances around which this all happened. This uncertainty could, and should, have been cleared up by the FIA Race Director as it happened.

According to an interview on Bernie's site , Jarno knew the rules , as he had encountered them before .
He knew he should not pass .

McLaren were demoted only one place before they lied .

[woody2goody]

But obviously to lie about an on-track incident to the stewards is a disqualifiable offence. If they had told the truth straight away then there would have been a good chance that the positions would have been Trulli 3rd, Hamilton 4th.

But they have to do the McLaren/Ferrari usual thing and try to gain as much as they can from the situation. It's their own fault, they've essentially lost their driver 5 points.


Come on Ferrari do not cheat like this . they do it in a more smart ways . They dont act like a 1 yrs old kid .

No they don't.

They are worse. McLaren are idiots, and Ferrari are bullies. McLaren is too concerned with it's corporate image, and the complain far too much. Ferrari go off crying when stuff isn't going their way, and when it is going their way they do everything possible to strike everyone else down.

[dj_bytedisaster]

No they don't.

They are worse. McLaren are idiots, and Ferrari are bullies. McLaren is too concerned with it's corporate image, and the complain far too much. Ferrari go off crying when stuff isn't going their way, and when it is going their way they do everything possible to strike everyone else down.

Well if they're concerned about their corporate image, then telling lies isnt the way to go, is it?

Oh, wait - my bad - it is a prerequisit in a corporate environment, I forgot ...

[Knock-on]

Apart from when Ferrari and Schumi insisted he hadn't blocked the track at Monaco in quali. The stewards saw through that one as well Ioan mate. :D

Shhhh, that doesn't fit ioans logic arguements. That was the lunatic fringe of the Stewards / FIA, not the sensible ones that made this decision ;)

For those that think McLaren are so corrupt and sinister as to figure out a way of cheating 3rd place in an instant like this, can I remind you of one little thing.

If they are so intelligent and dasterdly, why did they not consider that the FIA have full access to all voice communications between teams and drivers?

Surely these master criminals would have remembered this or could it possibly be that there was an amount of confusion about what was actually said and in hindsight, was was actually said was not what was remembered?

Now I have seen it, I think they just cocked up with no malice or dire motives.

[ioan]

Apart from when Ferrari and Schumi insisted he hadn't blocked the track at Monaco in quali. The stewards saw through that one as well Ioan mate. :D

You can blabber as long as you wish about how bad MS and Ferrari are because it's not true and it won't be no matter how many times you repeat it! :D

The fact is McLaren were proved thieves, cheaters and liars several times already, and that is what this thread is about and what makes you sour! :p :

Man, I love it when they are called liars by the mass-media all over the world! :D
It feels really good! :bounce:

[Daika]

What do you want to see ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a-uDZJ2ls78

I think i found it, not sure slept most of the race. I went to different F1 websites with a youtube video embedded only to find out is was taken down due to legal issues.

[Knock-on]

Man, I love it when they are called liars by the mass-media all over the world! :D
It feels really good! :bounce:

You really are a pathetic individual then, aren't you :p :

Whenever I see the sport brought down like this, I just feel sad :(

[woody2goody]

You can blabber as long as you wish about how bad MS and Ferrari are because it's not true and it won't be no matter how many times you repeat it! :D

The fact is McLaren were proved thieves, cheaters and liars several times already, and that is what this thread is about and what makes you sour! :p :

Man, I love it when they are called liars by the mass-media all over the world! :D
It feels really good! :bounce:

Mate, I don't care about McLaren, never really have, and I care even less now that they've tried, intentionally or not, to cheat one of my favourite drivers out of a podium.

Whether it was Hamilton who lied, or the team who told him to lie (the likely story), well they deserve everything they got for that, because it's wrong.

You have to understand that I agree with you about this situation. The only things I don't agree with you on is your slight hypocrisy about Ferrari. :D

And by the way, I used to idolise Ferrari and Schumacher before 2002 when they started to become arrogant and disrespectful to their competitors.

[ArrowsFA1]

According to an interview on Bernie's site , Jarno knew the rules , as he had encountered them before .
He knew he should not pass.
Fine. Perhaps McLaren, particularly in the light of Spa, wanted to be sure, hence their repeated attempts to get a ruling from the FIA Race Director.

None was forthcoming.

The instruction was "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." That could be seen as a delibertate attempt to dupe Trulli and gain 3rd position because McLaren knew a penalty would follow, or a belief on McLaren's part that they would be penalised if they didn't let Trulli by i.e. 'we need to let Trulli through to avoid a penalty, let the Toyota through now.'

I don't believe it is. Clearly there was doubt. Uncertainty formed the circumstances around which this all happened. This uncertainty could, and should, have been cleared up by the FIA Race Director as it happened.

Mclaren gave an instruction. Full stop.

Then they and Hamilton lied. Full stop.

[woody2goody]

Fine. Perhaps McLaren, particularly in the light of Spa, wanted to be sure, hence their repeated attempts to get a ruling from the FIA Race Director.

None was forthcoming.

In that case Hamilton should have remained ahead of Trulli and they should have cleared it up with the stewards and Toyota after the race. I'm sure no-one would have begrudged them if they had done so.

You really are a pathetic individual then, aren't you :p :

Whenever I see the sport brought down like this, I just feel sad :(

Why the personal attack?

That sort of thing gets people banned, don't you know?

[ArrowsFA1]

In that case Hamilton should have remained ahead of Trulli and they should have cleared it up with the stewards and Toyota after the race. I'm sure no-one would have begrudged them if they had done so.
Perhaps, although their uncertainty suggests they feared a penalty in those circumstances.

This could very simply have been cleared up at the time by the FIA Race Director.

[woody2goody]

Perhaps, although their uncertainty suggests they feared a penalty in those circumstances.

This could very simply have been cleared up at the time by the FIA Race Director.

Fair point. I suppose you'd rather be safe than sorry. Just a shame they then had to go and do something stupid.

However there's one person who will be happy in this situation. Can anyone guess who?

Perhaps, although their uncertainty suggests they feared a penalty in those circumstances.

This could very simply have been cleared up at the time by the FIA Race Director.

But they lied, no matter what the uncertainty that caused the situation.

"Allow the Toyota through now" is as clear and as obvious an instruction as it is possible to get.

The failure to condemn that and to pick fault in the FIA is disgraceful.

[Tazio]

James Allen has an interesting, fair take on the events!

posted last night that Lewis Hamilton and his McLaren team faced a tough day in front of the stewards and it has proved to be worse than we ever imagined.

When I left the track this evening, in the dark, sitting outside the McLaren team office was a thoroughly dejected looking team principal, Martin Whitmarsh with his communications staff, picking through the wreckage of their day.

Whitmarsh faced the media this afternoon and said that the team did not lie to the FIA stewards The stewards have released material this evening that appears to prove that they did lie. It appears hugely damaging for the team, once again and you have to ask how they got themselves in such a pickle over something so simple.

The FIA has published the radio traffic from Melbourne, which proves that Lewis Hamilton was instructed by the team to let Jarno Trulli through, something which contradicts his and the team’s version of events at the original stewards hearing on Sunday night.

An accompanying FIA statement says, “During the hearing, held approximately one hour after the end of the race, the Stewards and the Race Director questioned Lewis Hamilton and his Team Manager David Ryan specifically about whether there had been an instruction given to Hamilton to allow Trulli to overtake,” the FIA said in a statement.

“Both the driver and the team manager stated that no such instruction had been given.

“The race director specifically asked Hamilton whether he had consciously allowed Trulli to overtake. Hamilton insisted that he had not done so.”

There are some very simple but fundamental questions here. Both Hamilton and the team know that the radio is monitored by the FIA and by the TV production people. The following exchange could easily have been broadcast, had it not occured so late in the race,

“Lewis: The Toyota went off in a line at the second corner, …, is this OK?

McLaren: Understood, Lewis. We’ll confirm and get back to you.

LH: He was off the track. He went wide.

McLaren: Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now.

LH: OK.

LH: He’s slowed right down in front of me.

McLaren: OK, Lewis. Stay ahead for the time being. Stay ahead. We will get back to you. We are talking to Charlie.

LH: I let him past already.”

So the team told him first to let Trulli through, then told him not to, a classic piece of indecision, by which time it was already too late, he had let him through. When I spoke to Jarno this afternoon he said that Hamilton slowed right down, to 80km/h which is virtually stationary in an F1 car and this must have been when this radio dialogue was going on. Clearly Hamilton was very distracted by it and then left confused by the team when they told him to stay ahead, after he’d already let Trulli through.

Knowing that this radio traffic was in the public domain and that Lewis had given an interview to a journalist in which he’d said the team told him to let Trulli through, it beggars belief that he and the team would then say anything different to the stewards. What were they trying to achieve by saying that the team had not told him to let Trulli through?

At its root, what happened on track is not serious. A misunderstanding over what position to take when a car has gone off the road behind a safety car is not a particularly big deal.

Hamilton would have been justified in holding position ahead of Trulli, while the team kept trying to get an answer out of Charlie Whiting, the race director. Charlie was busy monitoring the state of the track and so on, so did not have time to review tapes of the incident and give them an opinion with only a couple of laps to go in the race.

Afterwards the team could have demonstrated that Trulli went off and that they did their level best to do the right thing and check with race control. At worst Hamilton would have been put back to fourth.

Instead they have managed to create Watergate out of the smallest of issues and, just as in Watergate, it’s the cover up that gets you in trouble.

I'm not sure about the following part however

There is all sorts of nonsense being written about the FIA World Council excluding Hamilton from the championship or banning him for a few races. This will never happen, Hamilton is F1’s biggest box office draw and even if his reputation has taken a bit of a knock, the promoters, punters and TV companies want him at the races

[Bagwan]

Shhhh, that doesn't fit ioans logic arguements. That was the lunatic fringe of the Stewards / FIA, not the sensible ones that made this decision ;)

For those that think McLaren are so corrupt and sinister as to figure out a way of cheating 3rd place in an instant like this, can I remind you of one little thing.

If they are so intelligent and dasterdly, why did they not consider that the FIA have full access to all voice communications between teams and drivers?

Surely these master criminals would have remembered this or could it possibly be that there was an amount of confusion about what was actually said and in hindsight, was was actually said was not what was remembered?

Now I have seen it, I think they just cocked up with no malice or dire motives.

Knocky , how do you explain the lies ?

Once the lies were in , how do you explain keeping the trophy ?

I don't see it as being planned in advance , but they certainly stuck , and it seems , are sticking to the story .
Have they not , since the ruling , stated that the telemetry shows Lewis not slowing significantly , even though they both told him to , and heard him say he did ?

Sorry , Knock , it might not have been pre-meditated , but it certainly was dirty .

And , I'm sorry too , for all Lewis's fans , as they deserve better .
He is a fine racer , but he has let you all down .

I hope , for the sake of Lewis , McLaren , and all the fans , sponsors , and , even the FIA and stewards , that he walks to the Toyota pit box and duly appologizes for this incident , to both Jarno and Toyota .

This will bring some respect back for Lewis and Mac , in my eyes .


They need to fix this right away .



Our friend , Ioan , has changed his opinion of these stewards , as have I , as they have seen to correct the situation , with more info at thier disposal .
From not understanding what seemed obvious , we found out they were merely uninformed , or more correctly said , misinformed .

They weren't stupid as we thought , but rather , ignorant because they were deceived .
So , lay off Ioan , as he's perfectly right in increasing his faith in the stewards after this recanting of a decision .

[big_sw2000]

Seems McLaren may get thrown out of the rest of the season
http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090402145024.shtml

[ioan]

You really are a pathetic individual then, aren't you :p :

Whenever I see the sport brought down like this, I just feel sad :(

Your insults make me feel even better! Wow! :bounce: :bounce:

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...02145024.shtml

"McLaren Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh, however, insists that neither the team nor Hamilton 'lied'.
"I don't know what they meant by (deliberately misleading), you'd have to ask them,"

This bloke is a fecking disgrace.

If he doesn't understand what his team has done, then he has no place in F1.

[ioan]

Mate, I don't care about McLaren, never really have, and I care even less now that they've tried, intentionally or not, to cheat one of my favourite drivers out of a podium.

Whether it was Hamilton who lied, or the team who told him to lie (the likely story), well they deserve everything they got for that, because it's wrong.

You have to understand that I agree with you about this situation. The only things I don't agree with you on is your slight hypocrisy about Ferrari. :D

And by the way, I used to idolise Ferrari and Schumacher before 2002 when they started to become arrogant and disrespectful to their competitors.


I don't see why you need to bring Ferrari up in a thread about Hamilton and McLaren, if not for trying to attenuate the situation McLaren put themselves into.

[ArrowsFA1]

The failure to condemn that and to pick fault in the FIA is disgraceful.
Read post #18 before you return to form :dozey: Woops, too late :laugh:

The fact is had FIA Race Control responded to the repeated requests from McLaren to resolve their obvious uncertainty this whole situation would never have arisen in the way it has.

[Daika]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...02145024.shtml

"McLaren Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh, however, insists that neither the team nor Hamilton 'lied'.
"I don't know what they meant by (deliberately misleading), you'd have to ask them,"

This bloke is a fecking disgrace.

If he doesn't understand what his team has done, then he has no place in F1.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/7978186.stm

When you listen to the audiotape, at the end he says we are going to learn from it. I'm thinking, how do you learn to tell the truth??!!

[Tazio]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...02145024.shtml

"McLaren Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh, however, insists that neither the team nor Hamilton 'lied'.
"I don't know what they meant by (deliberately misleading), you'd have to ask them,"

This bloke is a fecking disgrace.

If he doesn't understand what his team has done, then he has no place in F1.
He also looks like a liar :p :


http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/photos/zoom/zoom.shtml?/f1/photos/imgactu/zoom09/whitmarsh-fota-z-wri-02_060309.jpg

[ioan]

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headline...02145024.shtml

"McLaren Team Principal Martin Whitmarsh, however, insists that neither the team nor Hamilton 'lied'.
"I don't know what they meant by (deliberately misleading), you'd have to ask them,"

This bloke is a fecking disgrace.

If he doesn't understand what his team has done, then he has no place in F1.

Incredible, huh?
I expected them to be poor sports but to such a low level? I'm shocked!

Someone should tell him that "deliberately misleading" is the Ronspeak equivalent for "Lying".

The fact is had FIA Race Control responded to the repeated requests from McLaren to resolve their obvious uncertainty this whole situation would never have arisen in the way it has.

So you believe it is ok to lie then?

[Tazio]

Read post #18 before you return to form :dozey: Woops, too late :laugh:

The fact is had FIA Race Control responded to the repeated requests from McLaren to resolve their obvious uncertainty this whole situation would never have arisen in the way it has.Charlie was busy monitoring the state of the track and so on, so did not have time to review tapes of the incident and give them an opinion with only a couple of laps to go in the race.

James Allens words^^^^

During the event they were in the process of sorting out all issues involved in a serious crash, a safety car situation, and the goings on of every car on the track, not just the McLaren of Hamilton!

[Daniel]

Lewis was wrong to deliberately mislead the stewards, obviou....

Let's just stop it there :) If someone commits a crime they should be punished. End of story :)

[UltimateDanGTR]

Lewis' and Mclarens own fault. As a Mclaren supporter I concede that and I am annoyed at my beloved team and favourite driver for lying. They should have been sporting and conceeded before hand that Hamilton let Trulli past. They know the FIA are against mclaren and lewis, and so they should have played on the FIA's side. Silly silly mistake by Mclaren. lets hope they get back on track and start afresh for Malaysia. Mclarens season will now be 16 races this year..........

[Dave B]

Read post #18 before you return to form :dozey: Woops, too late :laugh:

The fact is had FIA Race Control responded to the repeated requests from McLaren to resolve their obvious uncertainty this whole situation would never have arisen in the way it has.
Not necessarily. Remember Spa? Charlie Whiting told them that Lewis was ok, that he'd correctly given the place back to Kimi. It later transpired that his "opinion" was worthless.

I repeat that I don't condone or defend Hamilton or McLaren for misleading the stewards, but even the anti-Lewis must surely concede that the procedures in place are sorely lacking.

[Daniel]

The instruction was "Lewis, you need to allow the Toyota through. Allow the Toyota through now." That could be seen as a delibertate attempt to dupe Trulli and gain 3rd position because McLaren knew a penalty would follow, or a belief on McLaren's part that they would be penalised if they didn't let Trulli by i.e. 'we need to let Trulli through to avoid a penalty, let the Toyota through now.'

I don't believe it is. Clearly there was doubt. Uncertainty formed the circumstances around which this all happened. This uncertainty could, and should, have been cleared up by the FIA Race Director as it happened.

You don't get it do you? It's not about what they did on the track or what was said, it was the fact that they LIED about it to the stewards after. It's a pity really because Lewis was entitled to 3rd place.

[ioan]

You don't get it do you?

He doesn't want to get it, that's the situation.

Arrows was, if I remember it correctly, one of the very few who never accepted that McLaren were in the wrong in the spying affair in 2007, not even after McLaren's open letter.

[Daniel]

Not necessarily. Remember Spa? Charlie Whiting told them that Lewis was ok, that he'd correctly given the place back to Kimi. It later transpired that his "opinion" was worthless.

I repeat that I don't condone or defend Hamilton or McLaren for misleading the stewards, but even the anti-Lewis must surely concede that the procedures in place are sorely lacking.
I do agree but what is the best solution? For the race director to ignore what else is happening on a track with a safety car while possibly having Vettel driving around with half a car or for it to get sorted out after the race? Part of me feels sorry for McLaren because on the race track they pretty much did the right thing but then they lied and lying is bad and should be punished.

You don't get it do you? It's not about what they did on the track or what was said, it was the fact that they LIED about it to the stewards after. It's a pity really because Lewis was entitled to 3rd place.

Excellent post.

[Rusty Spanner]

This is getting stupid whatever the rights and wrongs of the decision now against Hamilton.

This raises big questions again about the competence of the stewards. Surely the video footage of what actually happened on track and the telemetry should have been what was used as the basis for any judgement, not what was said by any of the parties involved. After all regardless of what the team asked the driver to do, its what he actually did in the end the matters.

This raises big questions again about the competence of the stewards

It raises even bigger questions about the integrity of Vodafone Mclaren-Mercedes.

Namely, have they any integrity?

On the basis of todays evidence, the answer is a resounding no!

[Bagwan]

Well , Whitmarsh is still unrepentant .
I guess that means we won't see Lewis shaking Jarno's hand .

What will the others think of a guy who lies to get a trophy ?

Lewis just went from squeeky clean hero , to low-down dirty lying cheat .

That's a come down .


I still hope for him to shake that hand , though .
I so hope he will .

[pino]

Guys...calm down, quit insults/personal attacks, keep Ferrari and MS out of here and stick to the topic thank you ! Make sure you don't ignore all this or you will be sorry...

Well , Whitmarsh is still unrepentant .
I guess that means we won't see Lewis shaking Jarno's hand .

What will the others think of a guy who lies to get a trophy ?

Lewis just went from squeeky clean hero , to low-down dirty lying cheat .


That's a good point Baggy. Eddie Jordan said the same thing on the BBC earlier. (Come to think of it, I've never seen you two in the same room?!?!)

Squeeky-clean hero to low-down dirty lying cheat....I wonder if the sponsors that Ron is so desperate to present a clinical clean image to are happy with that?

[tintop]

It would be interesting to have a time-line on the Mclaren radio transcript. It seems like race control had plenty of time to respond to Mclaren's request for clarification (yet again). I've worked RC in amateur series with much larger fields and 10% of the locational technology and can't comprehend that they couldn't get at least a preliminary ruling on the Toyota - Mclaren positions.


This doesn't excuse Hamilton who is fast becoming a typical win-at-all-costs child protege nor Mclaren for encouraging Hamilton to lie or being naive enough to not know that the black box tells no lies - how stupid. :confused:

[tintop]

What will the others think of a guy who lies to get a trophy ?

Lewis just went from squeeky clean hero , to low-down dirty lying cheat .

.

He doesn't come out very well here, but there have been other front runners in the past that have had problems with racing ethics or telling the truth.

What I find so amazing is that they / he'd be dumb enough to lie knowing that their conversations are recorded.

[Tazio]

This is the best of the best according to last seasons results,bringing the sport into disrepute!
Whether he was instructed, or acted (spoke)on his own volition.
Being the champion he has a responsibility to be forthright
and represent the best interest of the sport.
What is the worse thing MW could do to him for not lying?
This whole episode makes me really wonder about Hamiltons character!

[N. Jones]

Looking at the transcript autosport.com provided I don't see where Lewis and McLaren lied. Trulli went offline and Lewis gave him back the position. Lewis kept asking if what he was doing was okay.

I am super confused as to why Trulli got his original penalty and why Lewis got his.
:confused:

Being the champion he has a responsibility to be forthright
and represent the best interest of the sport.
What is the worse thing MW could do to him for not lying?
This whole episode makes me really wonder about Hamiltons character!

Tazio, I think you'll like this quote.....

"Yes, they've been champions....but they haven't been good champions!"

(Brian Clough, 1974, referring to "Dirty Leeds").

What modern day sport team could this be applied to, I wonder?

Looking at the transcript autosport.com provided I don't see where Lewis and McLaren lied.

The radio transcript states "Let the Toyota through now"....followed by "Ok" from Hamilton......and, when asked by the stewards if he'd been told to let Trulli past, he and the team manager reply "No".

That makes Mclaren and Hamilton liars.

[rabf1]

"regardless of what the team asked the driver to do, its what he actually did in the end the matters"

The issue is whether Trulli made an illegal pass during a SC period. If Lewis pulled over and let Trulli thru, that would not be an illegal pass. Lewis was instructed by the team to let Trulli thru and said on the radio that he did in fact let Trulli thru.

[Daniel]

NJones. They lied when they said to the stewards that they had NOT told Lewis to let trulli through when clearly they did tell him to.

[Dave B]

I do agree but what is the best solution? For the race director to ignore what else is happening on a track with a safety car while possibly having Vettel driving around with half a car or for it to get sorted out after the race? Part of me feels sorry for McLaren because on the race track they pretty much did the right thing but then they lied and lying is bad and should be punished.
No, it's already been established that the race director's opinion is worthless anyway. Charlie should - rightly - concentrate on the smooth and safe running of the race, but there should be a facility for contacting the stewards in cases of doubt and seeking either a binding clarification or a genuine admission that they don't know.

I'll say a hundred times, lest someone take my remarks out of context, that I neither condone nor defend what happened in the stewards' room; but that not for the first time the whole situation could have been avoided if the FIA had a proper procedure in place for in-race adjudications.

[Bagwan]

Looking at the transcript autosport.com provided I don't see where Lewis and McLaren lied. Trulli went offline and Lewis gave him back the position. Lewis kept asking if what he was doing was okay.

I am super confused as to why Trulli got his original penalty and why Lewis got his.
:confused:

Jarno screwed up and went off track .
Lewis took , rightfully , the position .
He then slowed to let Jarno by , on instruction from his team .
He didn't tell the stewards that he let him by , and in fact , did exactly the opposite .
Jarno was then penalized for overtaking under yellow , back to 12th , with Lewis into 3rd .
After the interview and sanctioning , the stewards were made aware of transcripts of in-car , and a SPEED interview that contradicted testimony , and he was thus sanctioned himself , and Jarno was returned to 3rd .

That's what happened .
I hope you are now less confused .

[N. Jones]

The radio transcript states "Let the Toyota through now"....followed by "Ok" from Hamilton......and, when asked by the stewards if he'd been told to let Trulli past, he and the team manager reply "No".

That makes Mclaren and Hamilton liars.
Ah, yes, then that can be classified as a lie!
But why say that when the radio transmission proves otherwise?

[woody2goody]

I don't see why you need to bring Ferrari up in a thread about Hamilton and McLaren, if not for trying to attenuate the situation McLaren put themselves into.

Ok sorry for bringing up Ferrari I suppose I dragged the thread off in the wrong direction with regard to mine and your conversation.

I think McLaren are a disgrace mate I'm 100% with you on that.

Only thing I'm going to say to you for future reference is that I don't like McLaren, never have, but I do like Lewis, Heikki and Pedro (de la Rosa) who are the only positive aspects of that organisation.

I also take back most of the stuff I said about Alonso 18 months ago which was more than likely down to the team and not the Spaniard.

[N. Jones]

No, it's already been established that the race director's opinion is worthless anyway. Charlie should - rightly - concentrate on the smooth and safe running of the race, but there should be a facility for contacting the stewards in cases of doubt and seeking either a binding clarification or a genuine admission that they don't know.

I'll say a hundred times, lest someone take my remarks out of context, that I neither condone nor defend what happened in the stewards' room; but that not for the first time the whole situation could have been avoided if the FIA had a proper procedure in place for in-race adjudications.

I agree 100%.

[Daniel]

But Dave, The stewards aren't there for that sort of thing. The issue wasn't what McLaren did on track as I think they could have reasonably done either thing. What they did wrong was lie. What happened on the track is rather irrelevant now.

[callum122]

I have pretty much overlooked the fact 2 significant crashes had happened and the race directors would be busy dealing with that. Pretty disappointed with McLaren anyway.

About the sig bet, I maybe should've waited a little longer into the European season and considered there is no in season testing.......

[N. Jones]

Jarno screwed up and went off track .
Lewis took , rightfully , the position .
He then slowed to let Jarno by , on instruction from his team .
He didn't tell the stewards that he let him by , and in fact , did exactly the opposite .
Jarno was then penalized for overtaking under yellow , back to 12th , with Lewis into 3rd .
After the interview and sanctioning , the stewards were made aware of transcripts of in-car , and a SPEED interview that contradicted testimony , and he was thus sanctioned himself , and Jarno was returned to 3rd .

That's what happened .
I hope you are now less confused .

I am , thank you sir.
Wow, even professional drivers are afraid of telling the truth, not just your average person!

Ah, yes, then that can be classified as a lie!
But why say that when the radio transmission proves otherwise?

Because it's endemic within the team? What else explanation can there be for yet another misleading of the FIA?

[fandango]

I think Dave has a good point. Imagine if it turned out that the radio conversation had somehow been inserted by someone to make McLaren look bad, but that we only discovered this in the middle of June? Would they change the result again?
They should have a stewards' inquiry announced at the end of the race, and then decide on a "winner all right" like horse racing.

So Hamilton and McLaren told some fibs to make themselves look good. It's not right, but it's not that bad really. Let he who has no sin throw the first stone. We've all done something similar. What has always bugged me about McLaren and Hamilton is this holier than thou, my word is my honour nonsense. Hamilton wins because he's an amazing driver and finishes first, not because of his righteousness.

[yodasarmpit]

So disappointed with McLaren and Hamilton, absolute Muppet's for not coming clean.
They would have at least been awarded 4th and possibly 3rd.

[Tazio]

but there should be a facility for contacting the stewards in cases of doubt and seeking either a binding clarification or a genuine admission that they don't know
This is becomming abundantly clear! :up:

[woody2goody]

Ok, I'm going to show some consideration for Lewis Hamilton on this one, or at least get everyone's viewpoint.

Before I start, I just want to point out that I'm NOT defending McLAREN. I'm just wondering whether or not Hamilton is as culpable as some people are saying. I've said that so some people don't get the wrong end of the stick.

Does anyone think that it might be in the McLaren code of conduct to do as they tell him in the stewards' room, and that maybe having sort of broken this code in 2007 when swearing at Ron Dennis or whatever he did, that his job could be on the line for breaching team discipline again?

McLaren don't seem to be the sort of team who would be bothered about whether or not he was World Champion just as long as he does what they say.

I could be wrong. Please tell me if you think I am, but be careful when criticising and slandering Hamilton's character when he could have just been toeing the line.

[ArrowsFA1]

Not necessarily. Remember Spa? Charlie Whiting told them that Lewis was ok, that he'd correctly given the place back to Kimi. It later transpired that his "opinion" was worthless.
True, unfortunately, and that may well have been a contributory factor here.

I repeat that I don't condone or defend Hamilton or McLaren for misleading the stewards, but even the anti-Lewis must surely concede that the procedures in place are sorely lacking.
Agreed.

You don't get it do you? It's not about what they did on the track or what was said, it was the fact that they LIED about it to the stewards after.
Obviously I understand that is what many are steamed up about. Understandably so. However, a very simple incident could, and should, have been dealt with very simply by Race Control. It wasn't.

What I find so amazing is that they / he'd be dumb enough to lie knowing that their conversations are recorded.
Indeed. They also assumed the stewards had listened to those recordings as part of their initial hearing. Lewis even referred to this ("you heard the radio, right?" when interviewed in the paddock immediately after the race.

...there should be a facility for contacting the stewards in cases of doubt and seeking either a binding clarification or a genuine admission that they don't know.
Absolutely, although this was in place before Spa. Essentially the FIA undermined their own official, and in the process contributed to, not caused, what we saw on Sunday.

I'll say a hundred times, lest someone take my remarks out of context, that I neither condone nor defend what happened in the stewards' room; but that not for the first time the whole situation could have been avoided if the FIA had a proper procedure in place for in-race adjudications.
:up:

Ok, I'm going to show some consideration for Lewis Hamilton on this one, or at least get everyone's viewpoint.

Before I start, I just want to point out that I'm NOT defending McLAREN. I'm just wondering whether or not Hamilton is as culpable as some people are saying. I've said that so some people don't get the wrong end of the stick.

Does anyone think that it might be in the McLaren code of conduct to do as they tell him in the stewards' room, and that maybe having sort of broken this code in 2007 when swearing at Ron Dennis or whatever he did, that his job could be on the line for breaching team discipline again?

McLaren don't seem to be the sort of team who would be bothered about whether or not he was World Champion just as long as he does what they say.

I could be wrong. Please tell me if you think I am, but be careful when criticising and slandering Hamilton's character when he could have just been toeing the line.

It's not acceptable to lie just because your employers are the kind of rats that want you to lie.

It makes no difference why he lied...it's his character that gets shown up.

Anybody with any decency would have told his employer to feck off, not just suck the corporate cock.

Obviously I understand that is what many are steamed up about. Understandably so. However, a very simple incident could, and should, have been dealt with very simply by Race Control. It wasn't.
:up:

You should be steamed up about too. It shows that the team you defended are liars.

You should direct your anger at those who lied, not those who don't have a procedure to prevent people from lying!

[Tazio]

About the sig bet, I maybe should've waited a little longer into the European season and considered there is no in season testing.......Not to worry I'm not malicious or vindictive! IF I win I have a whimsical sig for you that will be quite benign :)

[emporer_k]

Trying to explain to my colleages just how a sport with so much technology can still be deterening the result 5 days after the event was a bizarre experience. If the diffuser teams get disqualified too I think I'll just give up.

[woody2goody]

It's not acceptable to lie just because your employers are the kind of rats that want you to lie.

It makes no difference why he lied...it's his character that gets shown up.

Anybody with any decency would have told his employer to feck off, not just suck the corporate cock.

Cool, good post. No holding back but it's a big issue. I agree that your conscience has to prevail in this situation. I personally cannot lie so I would have been unable to lie to the stewards.

Do you think Tamburello, in all seriousness, that there's a possibility of Hamilton's job being threatened, or not?

[Daniel]

Obviously I understand that is what many are steamed up about. Understandably so. However, a very simple incident could, and should, have been dealt with very simply by Race Control. It wasn't.

You don't get it do you? Race Control had more important things to do than deal with this incident and deliver a ruling that should have been blatantly obvious to anyone as it was obvious to Brundle as he was commentating.

The stewards didn't hold a gun to Lewis' head and force him to lie! He did that all by himself with perhaps some help from the team.

I'll be honest mate, you're just looking for a scapegoat as a part excuse for the idiocy and incompetence of McLaren and the deceptive nature of Lewis Hamilton. That isn't cool.

[Daniel]

You should be steamed up about too. It shows that the team you defended are liars.

You should direct your anger at those who lied, not those who don't have a procedure to prevent people from lying!
:up: People seem to be wanting to blame race control for the lies that McLaren and Lewis stupidly used.....

[callum122]

Trying to explain to my colleages just how a sport with so much technology can still be deterening the result 5 days after the event was a bizarre experience. If the diffuser teams get disqualified too I think I'll just give up.

Agreed! If the Diffuser trio get done it will be a sad day.

[Tazio]

Cool, good post. No holding back but it's a big issue. I agree that your conscience has to prevail in this situation. I personally cannot lie so I would have been unable to lie to the stewards.

Do you think Tamburello, in all seriousness, that there's a possibility of Hamilton's job being threatened, or not?That would be stupider than Fred blackmailing Ron.
If Mclaren were to release Hamilton. He would just sign with another team!
Maybe one that will give him a chance to repeat :p :