WTH with the late SC!?

[ioan]

WHat on earth were they waiting for during 1 lap?!

[christophulus]

WHat on earth were they waiting for during 1 lap?!

Then send it out once Button has pitted, then pick up Vettel anyway. Nakajima's car is already clear but it's doing another lap!

Brawn have every right to feel hard done to by that. Deliberately bunching up the field!

[dj_bytedisaster]

Well, the timing was dodgy, but it was justified. Nakajimas car had spilled carbon all over the track and was stranded in a nasty position, so it was better to have the SC out, but they waited too long with the decision.

[Ranger]

WHat on earth were they waiting for during 1 lap?!

No idea.

[Valve Bounce]

That first deployment of the SC was pure nonsense. Apart from the fact that it robbed the leader of a handsome lead, the whole operation was stupid and dangerous.

The SC is supposed to control the cars at a safe speed. So, many cars were then waved past to continue racing at a much higher speed. What if there was somebody lying dangerously injured across the track?

I have argued for a blinking light system around the track where all cars are given say 5 seconds to slow to a standard safe speed, then this speed is controlled by race control. How difficult is that? What is the reason for permitting cars to continue at a high speed past the safety car after it is deployed?

[christophulus]

The SC is supposed to control the cars at a safe speed. So, many cars were then waved past to continue racing at a much higher speed. What if there was somebody lying dangerously injured across the track?

I actually shouted something like that at the TV :p

For a group of (supposedly) smart people running the show that was an utter shambles. The safety car is now nothing other than a device to bunch up the field. Thankfully it didn't mess up the race but it's just used wrongly far too often.

[V12]

I agree, with all the technology and the standard ECU they have it wouldn't be too hard to implement and enforce, and a lot fairer than the safety car.

[Valve Bounce]

I agree, with all the technology and the standard ECU they have it wouldn't be too hard to implement and enforce, and a lot fairer than the safety car.

....................and more importantly, a helluva lot safer. :rolleyes:

[Valve Bounce]

I don't see why this thread of mine was merged with ioan's - the two discussions are completely different. Maybe the mod who moved it could kindly explain the similarity between the two discussions.

[TMorel]

Talking of safety cars, what was going on with Ross yelling down the radio about being too fast behind it. Was that aimed at JB or RB and what was going on?

[ioan]

Talking of safety cars, what was going on with Ross yelling down the radio about being too fast behind it. Was that aimed at JB or RB and what was going on?

This year they have to keep the cars at a certain speed more or less a certain number of KPH as soon as the SC is deployed, they shouldn't go faster than that for any reason.

[Valve Bounce]

Talking of safety cars, what was going on with Ross yelling down the radio about being too fast behind it. Was that aimed at JB or RB and what was going on?

Rubens. The race was going to finish behind hte SC and there was no reason for Rubens to be that close to the fellow in front of him. Ross repeatedly told him to slow down and back off!!

[BobbyC]

Who at race control was at the helm? Did the marshal inform race control of the sticky situation in the first place? Did race control see enough carbon fibre on the racing surface (which is dangerous) to call caution immediately?

Now David Hoots would have called the safety car quicker than that. There is no reason for cars to be running even one lap through that knowing there is a potential for probably 40 punctured tyres because of this.

Enough carbon fibre or oil on the tarmac should be safety car worthy. Those are two cases where safety cars make sense.

There should be an announced safety car speed (60 km/h, 80 km/h, 100 km/h).

[BDunnell]

I thought that both SC deployments were justified owing to the amounts of debris, etc, on the track. But I do feel that the business of allowing lapped cars to overtake is potentially more hazardous than is necessary, and that the leaders should just have to deal with having them in the way.

[ioan]

But I do feel that the business of allowing lapped cars to overtake is potentially more hazardous than is necessary, and that the leaders should just have to deal with having them in the way.

But that wouldn't improve the "show" isn't it?! ;)
They don't want us to see a healthy race, they want us to be excited over artificially crafted "close" running in cricles.

[BDunnell]

But that wouldn't improve the "show" isn't it?! ;)
They don't want us to see a healthy race, they want us to be excited over artificially crafted "close" running in cricles.

While, as you know, I never tend to subscribe to 'conspiracy theories' about making the racing more artificial, I don't think having them being allowed to overtake does improve the show at all — quite the reverse, in fact. When there is a collision in those circumstances, the rule will be dropped, I'm quite sure.

[AndyRAC]

While the SC was right to be deployed, I did wonder what was going on. The debris appeared to be cleared up, yet the field was still sorting itself out - in fact I think the lapped runners had still not overtaken the safety car. Bizarre..

[BDunnell]

While the SC was right to be deployed, I did wonder what was going on. The debris appeared to be cleared up, yet the field was still sorting itself out - in fact I think the lapped runners had still not overtaken the safety car. Bizarre..

I don't think they had either.

If it is still deemed unacceptable to overtake on the formation lap because it's 'unsafe', which it probably is while cars are weaving to gain tyre temperature, it ought to be deemed unacceptable for lapped cars to go through the field and join on the back of the queue.

[Valve Bounce]

That first deployment of the SC was pure nonsense. Apart from the fact that it robbed the leader of a handsome lead, the whole operation was stupid and dangerous.

The SC is supposed to control the cars at a safe speed. So, many cars were then waved past to continue racing at a much higher speed. What if there was somebody lying dangerously injured across the track?

I have argued for a blinking light system around the track where all cars are given say 5 seconds to slow to a standard safe speed, then this speed is controlled by race control. How difficult is that? What is the reason for permitting cars to continue at a high speed past the safety car after it is deployed?

This was my original post which was unfairly and without justification moved to be buried in this thread. I think it answers a lot of the questions asked subsequently.

I think the mode of deployment of the SC was stupid and dangerous. That cars were allowed to pass the SC and continue at uncontrolled speed well in excess of the SC will be a point which the FIA should address.

And finally, I am damn mad my thread was moved to be buried in this thread.

[ioan]

While, as you know, I never tend to subscribe to 'conspiracy theories' about making the racing more artificial, I don't think having them being allowed to overtake does improve the show at all — quite the reverse, in fact. When there is a collision in those circumstances, the rule will be dropped, I'm quite sure.

Let me explain it better. They do this in order to give the cars in direct contention the chance to attack the car in front when the SC retires to the pits. Having interposed backmarkers is hindering this.

[cynisca]

WHat on earth were they waiting for during 1 lap?!

I was thinking the same. They had bring the Safety Car on instantly.

[BDunnell]

Let me explain it better. They do this in order to give the cars in direct contention the chance to attack the car in front when the SC retires to the pits. Having interposed backmarkers is hindering this.

But it is also a good 'show' having them fight through the backmarkers, so I think it works both ways, and is therefore unnecessary — quite apart from the safety aspect.

[Valve Bounce]

All cars should retain the gap (in seconds) before the SC is deployed unless that car pits. Now that's fair.

[BDunnell]

All cars should retain the gap (in seconds) before the SC is deployed unless that car pits. Now that's fair.

I wouldn't like that at all. I have no objection to everyone closing up on one another — the concept of the safety car is perfectly acceptable and better than stopping a race or having it continue in dangerous circumstances. Neither do I like it being misused, but I don't think it was in Melbourne to the extent that some seem to think. Its deployment on both occasions was surely necessary. What I don't like is the waving-through of the lapped drivers.

[christophulus]

I wouldn't like that at all. I have no objection to everyone closing up on one another — the concept of the safety car is perfectly acceptable and better than stopping a race or having it continue in dangerous circumstances. Neither do I like it being misused, but I don't think it was in Melbourne to the extent that some seem to think. Its deployment on both occasions was surely necessary. What I don't like is the waving-through of the lapped drivers.

I'd agree that it was fully justified in both cases, but my problem is with the timing of the first safety car. It was a good lap or so after Nakajima crashed before they released it, and then they sent it out after Button had left the pits!

Then it took a further 3/4 laps to get the field all lined up in order. The waving through of backmarkers seems daft, but by the time that happened the track was perfectly clear and race-able.

[BDunnell]

I'd agree that it was fully justified in both cases, but my problem is with the timing of the first safety car. It was a good lap or so after Nakajima crashed before they released it, and then they sent it out after Button had left the pits!

Then it took a further 3/4 laps to get the field all lined up in order. The waving through of backmarkers seems daft, but by the time that happened the track was perfectly clear and race-able.

Agreed.

[Valve Bounce]

I wouldn't like that at all. I have no objection to everyone closing up on one another — the concept of the safety car is perfectly acceptable and better than stopping a race or having it continue in dangerous circumstances. Neither do I like it being misused, but I don't think it was in Melbourne to the extent that some seem to think. Its deployment on both occasions was surely necessary. What I don't like is the waving-through of the lapped drivers.

The deployment of a Safety CAR per se is not necessary. You can control the speed of the cars from race control via their ECU's in less than 5 seconds after an accident. Even Nintendo can design such a system. Why the hell wait until somebody wakes the driver and shoves him into a CAR and tells him he is driving out onto the circuit as a Safety Car? The delay could be dangerous.Once the speed of the cars is controlled by Race Control, there will be no waving through.

[ioan]

But it is also a good 'show' having them fight through the backmarkers, so I think it works both ways, and is therefore unnecessary — quite apart from the safety aspect.

Not really the same cause backmarkers have to let them through and by then they lose contact with their direct competitor.

[christophulus]

I'd agree that it was fully justified in both cases, but my problem is with the timing of the first safety car. It was a good lap or so after Nakajima crashed before they released it, and then they sent it out after Button had left the pits!

Then it took a further 3/4 laps to get the field all lined up in order. The waving through of backmarkers seems daft, but by the time that happened the track was perfectly clear and race-able.

Just watched it again. It took by my estimation, two minutes to release the safety car, and they did it seconds after Button had been in for refuelling, holding the whole process up for a couple of laps while everyone caught up. Shambles.

Plus none of the drivers seemed to understand what a green light on the safety car meant, Massa even waved at the car to ask what was going on?!

[VkmSpouge]

I really think that the first safety car should have been deployed a lap earlier or perhaps just as Jenson Button left the pits, so there shouldn't have been over a lap of waiting for leader to play catch up.

[Dave B]

I thought that both SC deployments were justified owing to the amounts of debris, etc, on the track. But I do feel that the business of allowing lapped cars to overtake is potentially more hazardous than is necessary, and that the leaders should just have to deal with having them in the way.
Yes. The whole point of a safety car is to allow the marshalls to work safely on the track. Having lapped cars flying round trying to catch up with the back of the pack isn't exactly compatible with that aim.

[emporer_k]

I'm all for the stewards taking a moment to decide wether or not to deploy the safety car but the way they managed to miss button as he left the pits was embarassing.

On the topic of waving lapped cars passed: am I the only one that thinks that having the safety car bunch the field up gives evreryone on the lead lap that isnt leading enough of a leg up without clearing the backmarkers out of their way.

[markabilly]

Yes. The whole point of a safety car is to allow the marshalls to work safely on the track. Having lapped cars flying round trying to catch up with the back of the pack isn't exactly compatible with that aim.
Made that point over the last few years..not only the lapped cars but the ones catching up or leaving the pits after permitted pit stops, blasting around to catch up....we need a sc to keep cars slow, but until you hit the back of the pack, go for it!!!!!

well if conditions and concern for safety crews warrant the SC, then no one needs to be blasting around, but what do we know.

we ain't no expert, mostly because of possession of some common sense

[Somebody]

All cars should retain the gap (in seconds) before the SC is deployed unless that car pits. Now that's fair.

But defeats the point of the SC, which is not only to slow the cars down but to bunch them up so the marshals can work without cars around for most of the time. If a car is coming through (even at reduced speed) every few seconds, then that causes a LOT more trouble for the marshals than a single snake wending its' way through. If they merely wanted reduced speed, then they could simply have double-waved yellows in the relevant section of the track. That's a separate option.

However, I fully agree that the way the SC was deployed here was an absolute fiasco - they took far too long to make the decision, then sent it out at the absolute worst possible moment (immediately after Bunsen left the pit exit), meaning almost everyone was waved through while JB took the lap-and-a-half or so to catch up to the SC, and then another lap or so for the field to catch up again. [And no, they couldn't bunch them up behind Vettel in second - I think they may have originally thought that he was the leader on the track given Button's pit stop at the time - because that would mean Bunsen would have been given an unassailable near-whole-lap lead]

And finally, lapped cars are only meant to be released once the danger has passed. That may have been obscured here because of the time it took to bunch the field up behind the leader, and came about because of various incidents involving lapped cars being bunched between cars which were racing at the restart...

[V12]

I agree, Vettel and co had already gained sooo much just by the safety car coming out in the first place, they didn't need to wave Sutil and the others around, totally pointless. "The show" shouldn't come into it, I thought the SC is supposed to be a safety device only?

[SGWilko]

WHat on earth were they waiting for during 1 lap?!

It is race control following their new motto;

'We used to be indecisive, but we really aren't sure any more'

;)

[BDunnell]

It is race control following their new motto;

'We used to be indecisive, but we really aren't sure any more'

;)

We should be thankful that they didn't follow recent form and decided not to take a view of whether the safety car should be deployed, preferring instead to come up with an opinion some time before 14 April.

[SGWilko]

For a group of (supposedly) smart people running the show

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha bonk.

I just laughed me 'ead off! ;)

Give 'em a bath, they might just manage to run that, but you MUST let them have the manual and, be VERY patient...... :laugh:

[SGWilko]

I don't see why this thread of mine was merged with ioan's - the two discussions are completely different. Maybe the mod who moved it could kindly explain the similarity between the two discussions.

That would make a great Philosophy A level question..... ;)

[Somebody]

I agree, Vettel and co had already gained sooo much just by the safety car coming out in the first place, they didn't need to wave Sutil and the others around, totally pointless. "The show" shouldn't come into it, I thought the SC is supposed to be a safety device only?

You say "I agree", yet you reply after my post without quoting anyone else, where I said:

And finally, lapped cars are only meant to be released once the danger has passed. That may have been obscured here because of the time it took to bunch the field up behind the leader, and came about because of various incidents involving lapped cars being bunched between cars which were racing at the restart...
It's safer to get the slow cars out of the way of the quick guys...

[Valve Bounce]

But defeats the point of the SC, which is not only to slow the cars down but to bunch them up so the marshals can work without cars around for most of the time. If a car is coming through (even at reduced speed) every few seconds, then that causes a LOT more trouble for the marshals than a single snake wending its' way through. If they merely wanted reduced speed, then they could simply have double-waved yellows in the relevant section of the track. That's a separate option.

...

It beats having cars blasting past for two laps. If the situation is so serious that cars have to be bunched up to pass the marshalls, then a speed control down to 10 kph would solve that situation. I am all for cars being slowed down within a very short time, particularly if the crashed car is on the track with an injured driver inside. What's the use of having a safety car if cars go blasting past to catch up with the leader?

[nigelred5]

Would someone at the FIA and F1 PLEAAASE watch an American race OF ANY KIND( OK maybe not NASCAR, I hate the whole Lucky dog thing.) to see how a safety car is PROPERLY used???

It's prettydamn simple. Start by declaring the full course caution and releasing the SC from the pits. The safety car is simply supposed to pick up the leader and everyone else is to line up in the same track order behind. The entire field should slow to 80-100K on track, then the pace car should pick up the leader. If you pit, you re-join the field, you are scored in the order where you re-join. Cripes, I've seen less trouble at the local karting tracks.


They are far to hesitant to declare the SC when the track is clearly impeded. The problem is F1 has been far too hesitant to adopt a full course yellow/ safety car for years for fear of being seen as copying ANYTHING from American racing, and they have no idea how to do so properly. MAYBE if they called it what we do over here, a PACE CAR, some of them might just figure out WTH is going on!!! Sid Watkins is in the SAFETY CAR, NOT Bernd Maylander.

[Somebody]

It beats having cars blasting past for two laps.
I've already said that the SC in the race was a fiasco - but that was entirely down to an over-reluctance to make the call. If they'd got it out a lap & a half earlier, there would have been no problem, rather than getting it out too late AND compounding the error by having it start almost exactly a lap behind the leader, meaning it took even longer to bunch the pack up.


If the situation is so serious that cars have to be bunched up to pass the marshalls, then a speed control down to 10 kph would solve that situation.
If they slowed down THAT far, the tyres would be dangerously slippery, the brakes dangerously cold - and they would be FAR more likely to pick up a puncture...


I am all for cars being slowed down within a very short time, particularly if the crashed car is on the track with an injured driver inside. What's the use of having a safety car if cars go blasting past to catch up with the leader?
Well, the area in question was covered by double-waved yellows even before the SC came out. But I would hope that, should a situation like Ralf's infamous USGP shunt happened again, they would have the sense to just red-flag the race rather than deploy a SC.

[Valve Bounce]

If they slowed down THAT far, the tyres would be dangerously slippery, the brakes dangerously cold - and they would be FAR more likely to pick up a puncture...


.

If it was neccesary to slow down that much at the location of the prang, then so be it, other than stopping if the situation warranted. I'm all for almost instantaneous electronic light signals and controls around the track - bugger the safety car. With my suggested system, you can start controlling the cars within a very short time (seconds) of any prang anywhere on the track - you cannot do that with a safety car.

[Mark]

For me the safety car should be out for as long as it takes to clean up the incident, then in it goes, even if this is just one lap. If the tail enders haven't caught up, tough.

[Rusty Spanner]

Both uses of the safety car I thought were justified. But the first safety car was called for far too late and then they made a complete mess of sorting the field out and dealing with the lapped runners.

And with the second safety car I assume the only reason they pulled it in on the last lap was so it wouldn't appear in all the press pictures and coverage of the cars crossing the line. At the time I didn't think everything had been cleared up.

[Ranger]

And with the second safety car I assume the only reason they pulled it in on the last lap was so it wouldn't appear in all the press pictures and coverage of the cars crossing the line. At the time I didn't think everything had been cleared up.

They do that anyway, it was the same deal in Canada 1999.