Australian GP: Toyota disqualified for using 'flexi-wimgs'

[Giuseppe F1]

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74008

Toyota duo disqualified over flexi wings

Saturday, March 28th 2009, 10:45 GMT

The Toyota team has been disqualified from qualifying from the Australian Grand Prix over the flexibility of its cars' wings.

Timo Glock and Jarno Trulli had qualified in sixth and eighth positions respectively, but a post-qualifying scrutineering revealed their cars' wings were flexing beyond what's allowed in the rules.

The duo are expected to be allowed to start the race from the back if the team replaces the wings with ones that comply with the regulations.

[Dave B]

Wow. Didn't see that coming.


The duo are expected to be allowed to start the race from the back if the team replaces the wings with ones that comply with the regulations.
And if they don't have replacement parts available? :eek:

[F1boat]

wow. That's a terrible start for the Japanese squad.

[AJP]

Woah...
Naughty Naughty Toyota

[yodasarmpit]

Bloody hell, the starting grid hasn't even lined up and we have teams disqualified.
How the hell were Toyota not aware that their wing were illegal?

This will be a bit of a relief to Ferrari, as they are the direct beneficiaries of this decision.

[jens]

Wow, from a potential top contender suddenly to midfield... to a backmarker a few hours later. I really don't know, whether I should laugh or not. :p : What a huge cock-up.

I'm now almost sure this is Toyota's last season in F1. They are totally screwed. Jarno, try to enjoy your last year in F1! :D

[Valve Bounce]

Stiff!!

[ozrevhead]

shocking start - Pino wont be pleased :(

But if you make you bed and lie in it

[Valve Bounce]

shocking start - Pino wont be pleased :(

But if you make you bed and lie in it

See!! The race stewards are on the ball.

[ozrevhead]

See!! The race stewards are on the ball.
pitty the FIA isnt

[F1boat]

Bloody hell, the starting grid hasn't even lined up and we have teams disqualified.
How the hell were Toyota not aware that their wing were illegal?

This will be a bit of a relief to Ferrari, as they are the direct beneficiaries of this decision.

Yes. And with the KERS Massa IMO can be third after Turn 1.

[yodasarmpit]

Yes. And with the KERS Massa IMO can be third after Turn 1.I'm yet to be convinced by KERS, did nothing in qualifying, however on the start line it may prove it's worth.

[N. Jones]

Hmm.... I don't see this story anywhere else. All I see is that Toyota has been relegated to the back of the grid. :(

[Valve Bounce]

I'm yet to be convinced by KERS, did nothing in qualifying, however on the start line it may prove it's worth.

Maybe it could cause wheelspin? Can the cars handle more power from a standing start? I thought KERS would help cars overtake on a long straight.

[DexDexter]

Wow, from a potential top contender suddenly to midfield... to a backmarker a few hours later. I really don't know, whether I should laugh or not. :p : What a huge cock-up.

I'm now almost sure this is Toyota's last season in F1. They are totally screwed. Jarno, try to enjoy your last year in F1! :D

Spot on, F1 needs new teams for 2010 for sure. As discussed before, it seems to be the same old story with Toyota as in previous years. Hope I'm proven wrong.

[ioan]

This will be a bit of a relief to Ferrari, as they are the direct beneficiaries of this decision.

:rolleyes:

[christophulus]

Williams protest Ferrari & Red Bull cars (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74012)

It's all kicking off! Same reason as for Toyota I believe

[ioan]

Maybe it could cause wheelspin? Can the cars handle more power from a standing start? I thought KERS would help cars overtake on a long straight.

Who says they use it from standing start, they can hit the KERS button when the car already got some speed and they will still have a few seconds to take profit of those supplementary 80 HP.

[jens]

Dear F1 fans, it's getting absolutely mad!!!

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74012
Red Bull and Ferrari could be also under investigation!

[jens]

Williams protest Ferrari & Red Bull cars (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74012)

It's all kicking off! Same reason as for Toyota I believe

Wow, it's getting absolutely mad! It wasn't said without a reason that 2009 would be a very memorable year. It could also be memorable due to all kinds of off-track activities.

No surprise here that with huge changes in regulations there will be a lot of protests and unclarified things. Oh well...

[yodasarmpit]

:rolleyes:
What?

[Dave B]

Who says they use it from standing start, they can hit the KERS button when the car already got some speed and they will still have a few seconds to take profit of those supplementary 80 HP.

IIRC you're not allowed to use KERS until the car has reached 100kph.

[yodasarmpit]

Williams protest Ferrari & Red Bull cars (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74012)

It's all kicking off! Same reason as for Toyota I believeIt's getting silly already.

[ioan]

What?

You know what.

[ioan]

IIRC you're not allowed to use KERS until the car has reached 100kph.

So, not for the first second or so. ;)

[F1boat]

Wow, it's getting absolutely mad! It wasn't said without a reason that 2009 would be a very memorable year. It could also be memorable due to all kinds of off-track activities.

No surprise here that with huge changes in regulations there will be a lot of protests and unclarified things. Oh well...

What to say. Martin Whitmarsh predicted that things could become ugly and they did. Horner first stated that is seeking a clarification, then said that it is a "shame" that Brawn GP, Williams and Toyota are allowed to race and Luca also was spitting threads, from what I read on F1-live and Massa implied that Brawn GP must be stopped, or the season will be over by June.
So it is backfiring now and I think that if the stewards allows Red Bull and Ferrari cars to race, which I think that they will, Williams will appeal. That's why the non-diffuser teams should have kept silent and try to be inventive as well. Now if they are forced to remove the wings, I won't feel sorry for them.
Not at all.

[yodasarmpit]

You know what.

No, I think it would be beneficial for you to explain your comment.

[ioan]

No, I think it would be beneficial for you to explain your comment.

Why Ferrari? Why wouldn't the move not benefit other teams? Like Renault? BMW? McLaren?
So much bias and hatred coming from you.

[Ranger]

Not even the first race and Brawn, Toyota, Williams, Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) and Ferrari are going to be investigated.

That's all the top 8 teams!

:s hock:

...maybe the other two teams would be protested against if they were a threat to anyone!

[F1boat]

Not even the first race and Brawn, Toyota, Williams, Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) and Ferrari are going to be investigated.

That's all the top 8 teams!

:s hock:

...maybe the other two teams would be protested against if they were a threat to anyone!
That's why Macca are keeping silent. They wait the other teams to disqualify each other and McLaren will score 1-2 :)

[ShiftingGears]

Considering that Toyota didn't appeal the decision, I think they will have some spare wings that comply with the regulations. Because if they had any lack of confidence in the legality of the wings they would've brought spares.

[yodasarmpit]

Why Ferrari? Why wouldn't the move not benefit other teams? Like Renault? BMW? McLaren?
So much bias and hatred coming from you.Wow, that's an odd interpretation of my post.
Nowhere did I allude to this being a deliberate action to benefit Ferrari.
I was simply stating that like McLaren, Ferrari must have been disappointed with their performance coming into this GP, and they would be somewhat relieved by being the lead team to benefit by moving up the grid to a more competitive position.
I do fear that your own bias causes you to perceive any comment in relation to Ferrari as a personal attack, even when it is abundantly clear to anyone that this is not the case.

[Ranger]

That's why Macca are keeping silent. They wait the other teams to disqualify each other and McLaren will score 1-2 :)

I meant the top 6 teams btw :p : but they are still the fastest 6 teams.

And based on McLaren's pace that would be an alright plan. :p :

[Valve Bounce]

Who says they use it from standing start, they can hit the KERS button when the car already got some speed and they will still have a few seconds to take profit of those supplementary 80 HP.

Kerses!! :eek: ya got me there, ioan. :(

[dj_bytedisaster]

IIRC you're not allowed to use KERS until the car has reached 100kph.

which is like 2 seconds after the start ;)

[Valve Bounce]

which is like 2 seconds after the start ;)

.................or more precisely: 1.67803398 seconds.

[jens]

That's why Macca are keeping silent. They wait the other teams to disqualify each other and McLaren will score 1-2 :)

:rotflmao: Now I get it - this is how they are sandbagging!

[Valve Bounce]

:rotflmao: Now I get it - this is how they are sandbagging!

Cunning devils!!

[ozrevhead]

Not even the first race and Brawn, Toyota, Williams, Red Bull (and Toro Rosso) and Ferrari are going to be investigated.

That's all the top 8 teams!

:s hock:

...maybe the other two teams would be protested against if they were a threat to anyone!
well thats just peachy isnt it :mad:

[Sonic]

Am I right in remembering Toyota getting chucked out of WRC for some dodgy turbos in the early 90's?

[BDunnell]

Am I right in remembering Toyota getting chucked out of WRC for some dodgy turbos in the early 90's?

Turbo restrictors, 1995. Don't think any connection can be made, to be honest.

[Harm Kuijpers]

IIRC you're not allowed to use KERS until the car has reached 100kph.
Indeed, but the question is, are they able to do so anyway, or have the engineers built it into the software that they can't use it under 100 kph?

[ioan]

Turbo restrictors, 1995. Don't think any connection can be made, to be honest.

I agree.

[Powered by Cosworth]

Turbo restrictors, 1995. Don't think any connection can be made, to be honest.

I lol'd at that for some reason :p

[Sonic]

Turbo restrictors, 1995. Don't think any connection can be made, to be honest.

Didn't suggest one. Just thinking back. :)

[RJL25]

this one is a bit disgusting actually, flexy wings have been clear cut 100% illegal for a long time now. This is just blatent cheating from an increasingly desperate organisation who need to win or otherwise they are gone (toyota have already indicated that this year is the F1 teams last chance)

No sympathy, not even slightly for this massively miss-managed and poorly conceived F1 team.

Pity Jarno wasted the prime of his F1 career with these people...

[christophulus]

Toyota seem confident they can modify the wings for tomorrow. I'd like to believe it's a genuine mistake but who knows?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74016

[RJL25]

Toyota seem confident they can modify the wings for tomorrow. I'd like to believe it's a genuine mistake but who knows?

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74016

the wings flex due to their construction, you can't just change that. Toyota will have brought both flexible and non-flexible wings just incase they got caught. Blatent cheating! Should be excluded from the entire weekend...

[Sonic]

"We intend to modify the components overnight and we are confident these modifications will not result in any performance drop."

Sticky back plastic and a steel bar anyone?? :D

[VkmSpouge]

No excuse for Toyota to have flexible wings, it's not like it is a loophole like those diffusers.

[Tazio]

Williams protest Ferrari & Red Bull cars (http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74012)

It's all kicking off! Same reason as for Toyota I believe


Williams withdraws Ferrari, RBR protest
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/74018

Sir Frank's team announced in a dramatic political u-turn after Saturday qualifying in that it believed the Ferrari and Red Bull teams to be running illegal devices themselves, regarding the sidepods of the cars. Race stewards had reportedly held several hours' of meetings over the issue when Williams announced that it was withdrawing its accusations, with the statement coming post-11pm local time.

[Tazio]

.

[pino]

Stupid Toyota :mad:

[jens]

The critical question in my mind here is that whether Toyota ran such wing all winter, making them look better, or was it a one-off. The car passed Thursday's scrutineering, after all. Maybe it's not an impossible suggestion that Toyota tried out a new wing solution this weekend, but made a miscalculation with it. I mean with an in-season testing ban it's really needed to take gambles and race with parts that have had little on-track testing.

But yeah, past has shown that if anyone is capable of an embarrasing misjudgement, it's Toyota. And now their reputation is really tainted too. Shame really. I doubt they would try to blatantly cheat with something that can be caught out so easily. If anything, it's needed to be done smartly and through possible loopholes in all kinds of regulations, be it even a loophole in measuring (like the Michelin tyre in '03 or Ferrari's flexi-floor).

Positive side - now they are at the bottom, the only way is up. ;)

[BDunnell]

I doubt they would try to blatantly cheat with something that can be caught out so easily.

As the WRC team did with the restrictors, which was undeniably clever. I think you're absolutely right not to automatically think the worst — it certainly makes a refreshing change, at least.

[Malbec]

As the WRC team did with the restrictors, which was undeniably clever. I think you're absolutely right not to automatically think the worst — it certainly makes a refreshing change, at least.

It was undeniably clever, but also so complex that substantial engineering had to go into it, most probably requiring a decision at the top level to devote resources to it.

The problem is that Toyota has been involved in other stuff before, such as the purchasing of Ferrari information from ex-Ferrari employees in 2002. Again I would have thought that such a decision would have to be taken at a high level, and I have often wondered whether the decision to sideline or retire the Ove Anderson and Gustav Brunner shortly after was related to that incident.

That of course is different to the current episode which is most likely to be a mistake of some sort due to its crudity.

[Valve Bounce]

The critical question in my mind here is that whether Toyota ran such wing all winter, making them look better, or was it a one-off. The car passed Thursday's scrutineering, after all. Maybe it's not an impossible suggestion that Toyota tried out a new wing solution this weekend, but made a miscalculation with it. I mean with an in-season testing ban it's really needed to take gambles and race with parts that have had little on-track testing.

But yeah, past has shown that if anyone is capable of an embarrasing misjudgement, it's Toyota. And now their reputation is really tainted too. Shame really. I doubt they would try to blatantly cheat with something that can be caught out so easily. If anything, it's needed to be done smartly and through possible loopholes in all kinds of regulations, be it even a loophole in measuring (like the Michelin tyre in '03 or Ferrari's flexi-floor).

Positive side - now they are at the bottom, the only way is up. ;)

I have a slightly different take than you guys. I suspect that the flexible wing was a qualifier only, and once Toyota got their cars up near the front of the grid, they would then shut the garage doors after quals, and do a quick wing change for the race. That way, if one of the cars got to a podium place and the car was impounded after the race, it would have passed any close scrutiny.

I firmly believe they had non flexible wings which are legit waiting in the garage.

I agree with those who believe this is blatant cheating, pure and simple, and had Bernie not been desperate to run the full 20 cars, they should have been d/q'd. No sympathy from me because, unless there is a massive prang up front or a huge attack by mechanical monsters, Toyota now has no chance of getting a podium, and it will be very difficult to score any points from the back of the grid.

[Dave B]

I have a slightly different take than you guys. I suspect that the flexible wing was a qualifier only, and once Toyota got their cars up near the front of the grid, they would then shut the garage doors after quals, and do a quick wing change for the race.
Impossible, the cars are taken to parc fermé after qualifying and the teams can only make very minor changes under supervision.

[jens]

Haha, what a comeback for Toyota! Take that! :D 3rd and 5th (well, discounting possible JT penalty) and their pace was well competitive even with a "modified wing"! After practice it was suspected that Toyota struggles on longer stints, but actually TF109 made better use of the softer compounds tyres than many others, who were dropping quickly backwards. So TF109 is clearly one of the most consistent cars and especially over longer stints. If in the next races grid positions are fine, there is plenty of action still to come. :cool:

[ioan]

Impossible, the cars are taken to parc fermé after qualifying and the teams can only make very minor changes under supervision.

That's right.

[BDunnell]

Haha, what a comeback for Toyota! Take that! :D 3rd and 5th (well, discounting possible JT penalty) and their pace was well competitive even with a "modified wing"! After practice it was suspected that Toyota struggles on longer stints, but actually TF109 made better use of the softer compounds tyres than many others, who were dropping quickly backwards. So TF109 is clearly one of the most consistent cars and especially over longer stints. If in the next races grid positions are fine, there is plenty of action still to come. :cool:

I agree — and Glock's overtaking was splendid.