squeaking noise from WRC cars

[zerodegreec]

During the overrun/breaking into corners you hear a squeak come from the cars. Is this from the anti-lag? its not the sound of a blow off valve, its almost like a suspension noise... Ive been stumped for ages as to what this it, every car seems to have it. :(

[big_sw2000]

During the overrun/breaking into corners you hear a squeak come from the cars. Is this from the anti-lag? its not the sound of a blow off valve, its almost like a suspension noise... Ive been stumped for ages as to what this it, every car seems to have it. :(
Just answerd your own question, antilag

[zerodegreec]

so what part of the anti-lag system causes this sound?

[Jimmy Magnusson]

Whatever it is, it hardly sounds great, does it? Compare with ~10 years ago...

[big_sw2000]

Whatever it is, it hardly sounds great, does it? Compare with ~10 years ago...
Bring back the sound of the Escort WRC, popping and banging all over the forests

[Larry_Japan]

Wastegate

[JFL]

Rs500 :) :)

[Daniel]

Just answerd your own question, antilag
It's not anti-lag :) It's the wastegate as Larry said. The Subaru's of the late 90's were great for it :)

[Robbied]

Yep as said its the external wastegate on a GpA/World car that is opening/closing very quicky and releasing very high pressure air, sometimes back to atmosphere, that gives you the noise.

GpN cars (and most production cars) have the wastegate internal to the turbo and you dont hear the pressure release.

[JFL]

Love the sound of this one.. Classic RS 500 with antilag! Both whisteling and bang bang! Could it be better? Sweet exhaust too :)
http://www.motorsportmad.com/view/6837/christian-rigollet--sierra-cosworth-rally-legend-clip-1

[Allyc85]

I love Wastegate chatter, and as said the Subarus are great for it :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GktOsHO51rI&feature=channel_page

Anti-lag is this popping and banging..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ucnjalw3pBo&feature=channel

[SubaruNorway]

Subaru Impreza WRC 1998

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5jZluytOOo&feature=channel_page

[dimviii]

best wastegate chatter ever :s mokin:

[big_sw2000]

It's not anti-lag :) It's the wastegate as Larry said. The Subaru's of the late 90's were great for it :)
Cheers mate, i dont know what i was thinking this morning.
But ok is a wastegate the same as a dump valve

[Daniel]

Cheers mate, i dont know what i was thinking this morning.
But ok is a wastegate the same as a dump valve
Two different things :)

[JFL]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojoq61eUXjY
talking about wastegates.. :) Makes the scooby sound like its baby.. :)

[modri dirkac]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ojoq61eUXjY
talking about wastegates.. :) Makes the scooby sound like its baby.. :)

God, I like that sound ... :bounce:

[Gard]

It's not anti-lag :) It's the wastegate as Larry said. The Subaru's of the late 90's were great for it :)
Sure about that Dani :o Where does the excess compressed air go?

[WRCfan]

Damn those are some good noises!!!!
Love listening to videos with antilag and especially the first generation Subaru WRCars video.

[gloomyDAY]

God, I'm going to miss that sound in the WRC!

[urabus-denoS2000]

Well the current WRC's don't really have it either...

[OldF]

Subaru Impreza WRC 1998

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m5jZluytOOo&feature=channel_page


Those were the days. About ten years ago the sound was great (higher revs) and driving more spectacular. BTW, IMO the 1998 Impreza was the best looking Impreza ever.

[dimviii]

here we agree :p :

[SubaruNorway]

Those were the days. About ten years ago the sound was great (higher revs) and driving more spectacular. BTW, IMO the 1998 Impreza was the best looking Impreza ever.

That's why i have a 99' 2 door impreza ;)

[dimviii]

is it by chance a 22b? :eek:

[Helstar]

Superb videos, the Sierra is amazing ...

[SubaruNorway]

is it by chance a 22b? :eek:

Haha no it's a 2.5RS NA. Made in California i think and ran in New Jersey.
http://photos.streetfire.net/photo/_1031285.htm

[SubaruNorway]

is it by chance a 22b? :eek:


Haha no it's a 2.5RS NA. Made in California i think and ran in New Jersey.
http://photos.streetfire.net/photo/_1031285.htm

There is a 22B registered in Norway though, for sale ;)
http://imprezadriver.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=15006

[Zico]

ALS explained..

Firstly, boost is controlled very acurately by using 2 fuel injectors as air valves, these feed the boost/atmospheric pressure to the waste gate actuator, allowing minute and very fast acting boost control.
Secondly, the normal method of controlling engine idle via an idle control valve, that bypasses the throtle butterfly is dispensed with, the static idle is set in the old fashioned way by a locked off bypass screw.
Thirdly, where the idle control valve used to be, a new valve is fitted that has a solenoid controlled valve (looks like an engine inlet valve internally) that can open/close the throttle butterfly bypass orifice very qickly.
Forthly, a miriam turbo shaft is used to withstand the massive increase in turbo temperature generated by ALS.
Fifth, there is no dump valve used on an ALS equipped engine, the whole point of ALS is to keep boosting the engine, even on closed throttle.
The way it works is that when you come off the throttle, for example braking hard into a corner as you describe.. the throttle butterfly closes as per normal, once the boost drops to a certain level, the ECU starts to pulse the Throttle butterfly bypass valve, this has the same effect as you constantly stabbing the throttle on and off very quickly, this means that the engine is being driven by the ECU as though it wants to accelerate again, however this occilation of the throttle bypass valve is happening so fast, it has the effect of allowing the turbo to stay spinning yet produces no additional torque to drive the car forward. The ignition timing is also controlled during this off throttle period to again reduce torque yet maintain boost presure.
The effect of all this is that massive heat is generated in the turbo exhaust side, which ignites all the excess fuel, there is no deliberate overfuelling going on to explode the turbo impellar area.
The most modern of ALS systems on the current world rally cars are far more efficient due to them being so finely controlled unlike 10 years ago, which is why the ALS banging is less apparent on the modern cars.

[MrJan]

Bring back the sound of the Escort WRC, popping and banging all over the forests

Really? They sounded w**k as far as I'm concerned. Whever you get a driver in a Cossie who isn't on it you just hear this horrible banging noise from the anti-lag which lets everyone know that they are too scared to have their foot on the throttle.

[urabus-denoS2000]

I think that the sound of the Escort WRC has it's own charm...

[zerodegreec]

ALS explained..

Firstly, boost is controlled very acurately by using 2 fuel injectors as air valves, these feed the boost/atmospheric pressure to the waste gate actuator, allowing minute and very fast acting boost control.
Secondly, the normal method of controlling engine idle via an idle control valve, that bypasses the throtle butterfly is dispensed with, the static idle is set in the old fashioned way by a locked off bypass screw.
Thirdly, where the idle control valve used to be, a new valve is fitted that has a solenoid controlled valve (looks like an engine inlet valve internally) that can open/close the throttle butterfly bypass orifice very qickly.
Forthly, a miriam turbo shaft is used to withstand the massive increase in turbo temperature generated by ALS.
Fifth, there is no dump valve used on an ALS equipped engine, the whole point of ALS is to keep boosting the engine, even on closed throttle.
The way it works is that when you come off the throttle, for example braking hard into a corner as you describe.. the throttle butterfly closes as per normal, once the boost drops to a certain level, the ECU starts to pulse the Throttle butterfly bypass valve, this has the same effect as you constantly stabbing the throttle on and off very quickly, this means that the engine is being driven by the ECU as though it wants to accelerate again, however this occilation of the throttle bypass valve is happening so fast, it has the effect of allowing the turbo to stay spinning yet produces no additional torque to drive the car forward. The ignition timing is also controlled during this off throttle period to again reduce torque yet maintain boost presure.
The effect of all this is that massive heat is generated in the turbo exhaust side, which ignites all the excess fuel, there is no deliberate overfuelling going on to explode the turbo impellar area.
The most modern of ALS systems on the current world rally cars are far more efficient due to them being so finely controlled unlike 10 years ago, which is why the ALS banging is less apparent on the modern cars.

thanks for the post. You mentioned that they are not intentionally running rich and burning it in the exaust. (I thought that is what they were doing...) How then do they keep the turbo RPM up without the mass flow from the engine? if they pulse the butterfly valve and cut fuel they are not going to get the needed flow to keep it up to full or almost full boost... I must be missing something, How can they keep the boost from going to high without a blow off? You would think that the back pressure would grenade the impellers.

And back to the original question, where does the squeak come from?

[anstis]

And back to the original question, where does the squeak come from?

Don't quote me on this but I think I read somewhere a long time ago, from memory it might have been David Lapworth explaining, that when the throttle is closed the compressed air, having gone through the turbo, almost stops as there is less being fed into the engine. The compressed air then momentarily expands forcing some backwards through the compressor wheel as it's still spinning, creating a chirp.

I could be mistaken though...

[Gard]

Don't quote me on this but I think I read somewhere a long time ago, from memory it might have been David Lapworth explaining, that when the throttle is closed the compressed air, having gone through the turbo, almost stops as there is less being fed into the engine. The compressed air then momentarily expands forcing some backwards through the compressor wheel as it's still spinning, creating a chirp.

I could be mistaken though...

:up:

[Nenukknak]

Don't quote me on this but I think I read somewhere a long time ago, from memory it might have been David Lapworth explaining, that when the throttle is closed the compressed air, having gone through the turbo, almost stops as there is less being fed into the engine. The compressed air then momentarily expands forcing some backwards through the compressor wheel as it's still spinning, creating a chirp.

I could be mistaken though...

I really can't imagine that's correct.

[Nenukknak]

How can they keep the boost from going to high without a blow off? You would think that the back pressure would grenade the impellers.


The ignition is being delayed, so that ignition happens at the time when exhaust valves are (somewhat) open, thus creating exhaust pressure to spin the turbo, while not giving the car forward momentum. At least that's the way I always understood it.

[Daniel]

The ignition is being delayed, so that ignition happens at the time when exhaust valves are (somewhat) open, thus creating exhaust pressure to spin the turbo, while not giving the car forward momentum. At least that's the way I always understood it.
Yes the compressor would stall and that is exactly what you don't want.

[OldF]

Here are some more readings.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html

“Surge Line

* Surge is the left hand boundary of the compressor map. Operation to the left of this line represents a region of flow instability. This region is characterized by mild flutter to wildly fluctuating boost and “barking” from the compressor. Continued operation within this region can lead to premature turbo failure due to heavy thrust loading.
* Surge is most commonly experienced when one of two situations exist. The first and most damaging is surge under load. It can be an indication that your compressor is too large. Surge is also commonly experienced when the throttle is quickly closed after boosting. This occurs because mass flow is drastically reduced as the throttle is closed, but the turbo is still spinning and generating boost. This immediately drives the operating point to the far left of the compressor map, right into surge.

Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.”

http://www.kosunenracing.com/eals.html

“As you might be aware of, turbochargers display what is known as lag time which is the time needed for the turbine to reach its full throttle from an intermediate rotational speed state. During lag time the engine is much less responsive and its output well below nominal. Essentially, exhaust gas is used to spin a turbine which compresses intake air. But what happens when you shift gears? You have to lift your foot off the throttle. Exhaust gas velocity drops, and the turbine blades slow down. Intake boost pressure drops. For the next gear, you have to wait until the turbine spins up again for the boost to kick in.

Example Motec Mode2: When the throttle is permanently open and a switch is used to indicate to the ECU that Overrun Boost (ALS) should be activated. When the driver lifts his foot from the throttle the ECU (motec, ecutek, gems, etc.) alters ignition timing is altered of delay (retard, 10-40 degrees) and the intake air and fuel supply mixture is made richer. The inlet butterfly is kept slightly open or an air injector is used to maintain air supply to the engine. This results in air/fuel mixture that keeps getting in the combustion chambers when the driver no longer accelerates. The ignition being delayed, the air/fuel mixture reaches the exhaust tubes mostly unburned. RPM. Additional fuel during and-lag is often required to help control EGT.

A value between 10 - 30% extra is usually beneficial. When the spark plug fires, the exhaust valve is starting to open due to the ignition delay mentioned above. The turbo sits right there and the explosion keeps it turning. Racing ALS version can maintain a pressure of up to 1 - 1.5 bar in the inlet manifold with the throttle closed. In decent rally/race cars anti-lag action is terminated by excessive engine temperature to safe engine! NOTE! ALS can add over 200°C to the temperature of the turbo forcing it up over 1000°C.

Rally cars use a different way of introducing petrol into the exhaust manifold. There are separate injectors that introduce fuel directly into the exhaust manifold. Some of this mixture will continue burning in the turbine and down the exhaust system, resulting in the flames and explosions you hear coming out of the exhaust muffler."

[zerodegreec]

Very Nice OldF thanks for that.

Now I understand that whats in my head as to how the ALS works is bang on what you posted, but still that original question...

what causes that squeak???

[Zico]

what causes that squeak???

I know Wiki isnt usuallly the most accurate of sorces but see the 'Wastegate chatter myth' section on here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

[MrJan]

I know Wiki isnt usuallly the most accurate of sorces but see the 'Wastegate chatter myth' section on here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate

Back on the old, old forum Marcus Dodd did a fairly lengthy post about turbos that was quite interesting. Sadly now the archive has gone it's probably consigned to history :(

[Daniel]

I know Wiki isnt usuallly the most accurate of sorces but see the 'Wastegate chatter myth' section on here.. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wastegate
I found out the cause of this noise, dodgy window seals on frameless windows. Was driving to work today and the car started making the exact same noise as what is being described on this thread :p Scared the bejeezus out of me :mark:

[zerodegreec]

I thought it was stated that wrc cars dont have a waste gate...

[Zico]

I thought it was stated that wrc cars dont have a waste gate...

I think you must have the wastegate confused with a dump valve.

[OldF]

I think you must have the wastegate confused with a dump valve.

Yes, two different things.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html

Dump valve = blow of valve, BOV.

“Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.”

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

Wastegates

On the exhaust side, a Wastegates provides us a means to control the boost pressure of the engine. Some commercial diesel applications do not use a Wastegates at all. This type of system is called a free-floating turbocharger.

However, the vast majority of gasoline performance applications require a Wastegates. There are two (2) configurations of Wastegates, internal or external. Both internal and external Wastegates provide a means to bypass exhaust flow from the turbine wheel. Bypassing this energy (e.g. exhaust flow) reduces the power driving the turbine wheel to match the power required for a given boost level. Similar to the BOV, the Wastegates uses boost pressure and spring force to regulate the flow bypassing the turbine.

Internal Wastegates are built into the turbine housing and consist of a “flapper” valve, crank arm, rod end, and pneumatic actuator. It is important to connect this actuator only to boost pressure; i.e. it is not designed to handle vacuum and as such should not be referenced to an intake manifold.
Internal Wastegate

External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to
improve the turbine’s performance. On racing applications, this Wastegated exhaust flow can be vented directly to atmosphere.

[jparker]

Yes, two different things.

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html

Dump valve = blow of valve, BOV.

“Surge will decay once the turbo speed finally slows enough to reduce the boost and move the operating point back into the stable region. This situation is commonly addressed by using a Blow-Off Valves (BOV) or bypass valve. A BOV functions to vent intake pressure to atmosphere so that the mass flow ramps down smoothly, keeping the compressor out of surge. In the case of a recirculating bypass valve, the airflow is recirculated back to the compressor inlet.”

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech101.html

Wastegates

On the exhaust side, a Wastegates provides us a means to control the boost pressure of the engine. Some commercial diesel applications do not use a Wastegates at all. This type of system is called a free-floating turbocharger.

However, the vast majority of gasoline performance applications require a Wastegates. There are two (2) configurations of Wastegates, internal or external. Both internal and external Wastegates provide a means to bypass exhaust flow from the turbine wheel. Bypassing this energy (e.g. exhaust flow) reduces the power driving the turbine wheel to match the power required for a given boost level. Similar to the BOV, the Wastegates uses boost pressure and spring force to regulate the flow bypassing the turbine.

Internal Wastegates are built into the turbine housing and consist of a “flapper” valve, crank arm, rod end, and pneumatic actuator. It is important to connect this actuator only to boost pressure; i.e. it is not designed to handle vacuum and as such should not be referenced to an intake manifold.
Internal Wastegate

External Wastegates are added to the exhaust plumbing on the exhaust manifold or header. The advantage of external Wastegates is that the bypassed flow can be reintroduced into the exhaust stream further downstream of the turbine. This tends to
improve the turbine’s performance. On racing applications, this Wastegated exhaust flow can be vented directly to atmosphere.

So, in plain words, the flow that spins the turbo is controlled by Wastegate, and the flow (compressed air) that turbo generates is controlled by BOV. Is that correct?
So, the noise is created by the compressed air going backwards (when throttle is lifted) through the compressor wheel. In other words neither the BOV or Wastegate are related to the noise. Is that correct?

[Gard]

The BOV/BPV and the wastegate also make noices. Different noises dependent of the setup. BOV are often made so they will sound the most. Many love the blowing/exhaling sound when shifting gears. This can also be heard when using BPV, especially with open air-filters. then you hear the air rushes back. WRC doesn't use wastegate, but the ALS will also make noises.

A turbo engine is like a small orchestra.

[Daniel]

The BOV/BPV and the wastegate also make noices. Different noises dependent of the setup. BOV are often made so they will sound the most. Many love the blowing/exhaling sound when shifting gears. This can also be heard when using BPV, especially with open air-filters. then you hear the air rushes back. WRC doesn't use wastegate, but the ALS will also make noises.

A turbo engine is like a small orchestra.
WRCars DO use a wastegate.....

[Gard]

WRCars DO use a wastegate.....

Call it what you like :rolleyes:

[Daniel]

Call it what you like :rolleyes:
There's no need to have an attitude! :laugh: You said that WRCars don't use a wastegate when they do. Perhaps you yourself don't call it a wastegate but they do use a wastegate.....

[OldF]

I think you must have the wastegate confused with a dump valve.

ZICO, do you mean by a dump valve a blow off valve i.e. a by pass valve isn’t a dump valve? Just to clarify that we are talking about same things.

[Zico]

ZICO, do you mean by a dump valve a blow off valve i.e. a by pass valve isn’t a dump valve? Just to clarify that we are talking about same things.

Yes, my definition of a dumpvalve (BOV) is one that releases the pressure to the atmosphere. Is my info wrong?

[OldF]

Yes, my definition of a dumpvalve (BOV) is one that releases the pressure to the atmosphere. Is my info wrong?

Not in my opinion. Dump valve as it says waste the excessive pressure. I just asked to clarify that I understood the “dump valve” right.

[bubbaontour]

I read some of this stuff on this forum and it makes me want to scream!

[Nenukknak]

Don't quote me on this but I think I read somewhere a long time ago, from memory it might have been David Lapworth explaining, that when the throttle is closed the compressed air, having gone through the turbo, almost stops as there is less being fed into the engine. The compressed air then momentarily expands forcing some backwards through the compressor wheel as it's still spinning, creating a chirp.

I could be mistaken though...


I really can't imagine that's correct.

And now I can. The sound is indeed from compressor surge. And probably the reason that you hear it less is due to technological advancements reducing this phenomenon.

[janvanvurpa]

Call it what you like :rolleyes:


What do you call it?
Or more to the point just what do WRC cars use to control turbine speed?

[Daniel]

Jan they don't use wastegates in wrcars. They regulate boost by magic

[OldF]

Jan they don't use wastegates in wrcars. They regulate boost by magic

Could you please explain the magic they’re using.

To go back to this web site http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/turbo_tech103.html there are two borders on a compressor map that shouldn’t be crossed. The one to the left on the map, the surge line is described already. The one to the right, the choke line, is where the speed of the turbo approach allowable limit and IMO the only way to prevent this is using a waste gate to slow down the turbo. If someone disagrees, then please explain how it’s done.

◊ The Choke Line is the right hand boundary of the compressor map. For Garrett maps, the choke line is typically defined by the point where the efficiency drops below 58%. In addition to the rapid drop of compressor efficiency past this point, the turbo speed will also be approaching or exceeding the allowable limit. If your actual or predicted operation is beyond this limit, a larger compressor is necessary.

◊ Turbo Speed Lines are lines of constant turbo speed. Turbo speed for points between these lines can be estimated by interpolation. As turbo speed increases, the pressure ratio increases and/or mass flow increases. As indicated above in the choke line description, the turbo speed lines are very close together at the far right edge of the map. Once a compressor is operating past the choke limit, turbo speed increases very quickly and a turbo over-speed condition is very likely.

◊ Efficiency Islands are concentric regions on the maps that represent the compressor efficiency at any point on the map. The smallest island near the center of the map is the highest or peak efficiency island. As the rings move out from there, the efficiency drops by the indicated amount until the surge and choke limits are reached.

[Nenukknak]

I think Daniel was being sarcastic OldF. ;)

[OldF]

I think Daniel was being sarcastic OldF. ;)

As always. Still I would like to know the magic behind it. ;)

[Zico]

I read some of this stuff on this forum and it makes me want to scream!

Just the man.. You probably know more about ALS than the lot of us put together, dont scream.. just set us all straight once and for all.