McLaren in '09 [Archive] - Motorsport Forums

Knock-on

10th March 2009, 13:42

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73642

OK, this new floor has been brought in when the pace has been woeful from the McLaren. Any ideas?

My guess is that they ran the 08 rear wing to help set the car up with extra downforce. I suspect the floor allows them to generate better rear grip and obviously run faster through the corners. However, it might develop this grip with less drag than produces solely by the rear wing because of where it is.

What's the truth? Now they have a baseline, will we see them turning the wick up and get a true idea of pace.

If, and it's a big IF they have pulled a flanker, it's been done very well as they have stolen the March on everyone else but time will tell.

If not, the rest of this thread will probably be filled with people chuckleing about the dire performance of this years car :D

Sonic

10th March 2009, 13:54

My personal belief is that come Aus we are going to see both McLaren's top 6.

As you suggest the new floor should produce more downforce focused on the rear. The '08 wing has allowed them to simulate the cars responses with those levels of rear grip and with the reduced drag once the '09 wing is bolted on should result in an immediate increase in their full on pace.

They also seem to have spent far longer working with KERS than many others and perhaps that is muddying the water.

But hey its testing so who the frak knows. Now I've said all this its bound to be a repeat of the MP4-18 and 19!

SGWilko

10th March 2009, 14:05

Garry Walker

10th March 2009, 14:14

McLaren is having problems for sure, that is obvious. The question is whether they can solve them. An organization with resources and intelligence such as McLaren can never be counted out.

The strong point of their car is KERS, they and BMW seem the best prepared for Australia in that regard.

Brown, Jon Brow

10th March 2009, 14:17

What are the chances that they are just sandbagging?

Garry Walker

10th March 2009, 14:21

What are the chances that they are just sandbagging?

Zero.

Unless one wants to believe in fairy tales, voted labour and has an IQ below 60

SGWilko

10th March 2009, 14:22

SGWilko

10th March 2009, 14:23

voted labour

And the sensible alternative is..........?

(BTW Lord Such is no longer with us....)

Brown, Jon Brow

10th March 2009, 14:34

Zero.

Unless one wants to believe in fairy tales, voted labour and has an IQ below 60

I don't believe in fairy tales, I didn't vote Labour and I have an IQ of over 120.

So just to be obtuse I'm going to suggest that McLaren are sandbagging.

Garry Walker

10th March 2009, 14:36

Are we stating here that McLaren are having woes as fact, or just an opinion based on times posted thus far?

Various sources from paddock who have inside information have said so, Kovalainen has admitted to some problems, Vasselon and Webber have said McLaren is struggling. people who have attended tests have said McLaren did not look that impressive.

And the sensible alternative is..........?

Anything.
There is no mainstream party in UK I would not vote for compared to Labour, although liberal dems are quite bad as well.

jens

10th March 2009, 15:29

Considering that McLaren has been trying out all kinds of solutions, and apparently none of them is working in the way they would like, I'm guessing McLaren may have a serious fundamental problems with the car, which can't be fixed in a few weeks' time by just trying out different quick solutions on the car. So to get back to the top, a totally new car will be needed and at quickest it can launched only by midseason. Like in 2004.

Knock-on

10th March 2009, 15:40

Zero.

Unless one wants to believe in fairy tales, voted labour and has an IQ below 60

Actually, where is he? I haven't seen him around recently ;)

I've been going through this in my mind and it's too huge a time difference to be coincidence.

Are they running with KERS on I wonder or are they happy with how it will perform. Naw, too risky.

There is something going on and Aus will be the test.

ioan

10th March 2009, 16:12

Havn't McLaren also been conducting tyre testing to 2010 regulations? I might be wrong, but you don't test that stuff unless you are confident in your product, do you?

Still, let's just wait and see come Melbourne, eh?

Everyone did test 2010 spec tires because that was a FIA requirement last week.

It doesn't change the fact that McLaren are the only team who run 90% of the time with an illegal 2008 spec wing because their 2009 package is pants.

ioan

10th March 2009, 16:14

I don't believe in fairy tales, I didn't vote Labour and I have an IQ of over 120.

And you name is Superman!? :laugh:

Dave B

10th March 2009, 16:14

It doesn't change the fact that McLaren are the only team who run 90% of the time with an illegal 2008 spec wing because their 2009 package is pants.
You keep bringing this up. Remind me, what exactly is illegal about using an old wing in a test?

I can't find anything in the regulations about it.

ioan

10th March 2009, 16:16

What exactly is illegal about using an old wing in a test?

I can't find anything in the regulations about it.

What was illegal about using longer or uncovered exhaust pipes during a test?! :p :

ArrowsFA1

10th March 2009, 16:23

What was illegal about using longer or uncovered exhaust pipes during a test?! :p :
Ahhhh, the cunning trick of answering a question with a question :laugh:

What exactly is illegal about using an old wing in a test?
Hint: the answer is nothing. :D

Knock-on

10th March 2009, 16:50

Everyone did test 2010 spec tires because that was a FIA requirement last week.

It doesn't change the fact that McLaren are the only team who run 90% of the time with an illegal 2008 spec wing because their 2009 package is pants.

How silly :laugh:

With the Ferrari pipes, just about everyone said they are legal unless they tried to race them in Melbourne yet you just love trying to troll :laugh:

I thought it was quiet today. Where have you been?

Brown, Jon Brow

10th March 2009, 17:10

And you name is Superman!? :laugh:

:erm:

christophulus

10th March 2009, 18:57

The good old Ferrari v McLaren arguments have started up again, I knew there was something missing! :p

They must be sandbagging, I can't see how the winning team from last year could screw up so badly this year. I guess we'll have to wait til Aus to get a definitive answer but I just cannot see how McLaren could really be so far off the pace...

Donney

10th March 2009, 18:59

Because testing is testing and some things work and others don't. Simple.

COD

10th March 2009, 21:30

At least it not the engine letting them down, both Brawn and India faster in Mercedes engines....

Marshall

10th March 2009, 23:27

I read on another forum that Heikki seemed to be slowing a bit on some of the straights yesterday...and they've just launched a new floor...I wouldn't say the sandbagging suggestion is stupid at all.

jjanicke

11th March 2009, 00:59

You keep bringing this up. Remind me, what exactly is illegal about using an old wing in a test?

I can't find anything in the regulations about it.
What was illegal about using longer or uncovered exhaust pipes during a test?! :p :

What's the answer to Brockman's question? ;)

mstillhere

11th March 2009, 04:19

just about everyone said they are legal
Everyone was saying that Ferrari tail pipes were legal? On this site? Are you kidding me? If everyone was saying that why was that thread 17 pages long?

ioan

11th March 2009, 07:08

How silly :laugh:

I'm yet to see your answer in the KERS thread related to the position of the KERS motor on the front side of the engine! :p :

ioan

11th March 2009, 07:09

What's the answer to Brockman's question? ;)

It's found on the thread where some Mac fans called the Ferrari exhaust pipes illegal and now are hiding behind their finger! ;)

ioan

11th March 2009, 07:10

Everyone was saying that Ferrari tail pipes were legal? On this site? Are you kidding me? If everyone was saying that why was that thread 17 pages long?

Don't lose your time, double standards are the standard for most of them! ;)

ioan

11th March 2009, 07:12

I read on another forum that Heikki seemed to be slowing a bit on some of the straights yesterday...

I would have tried to slow down to before trying to make a turn.

SGWilko

11th March 2009, 08:26

It's found on the thread where some Mac fans called the Ferrari exhaust pipes illegal and now are hiding behind their finger! ;)

Oi, are you saying I've got fat fingers buddy? :D ;)

Tazio

11th March 2009, 08:33

I would have tried to slow down to before trying to make a turn.Good one Ioan. :p :

Dave B

11th March 2009, 08:47

It's found on the thread where some Mac fans called the Ferrari exhaust pipes illegal and now are hiding behind their finger! ;)
I recall posting that it didn't matter about the pipes so long as they didn't turn up in Melbourne expecting to run them - exactly the same view I hold about McLaren's wing. I seem to recall many other posters agreeing.

Obviously if you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to provide it - you pride yourself on backing up your opinions.

Tazio

11th March 2009, 08:55

I'm with Kimi on this one.
Personally I think Haug is lying his ass off! :)

"I don't know if they have problems or what they are doing," the Ferrari driver told La Gazzetta dello Sport at Barcelona.

"It is easier to wait two weeks (for Melbourne) to see exactly where people are. Certainly they (McLaren) have been less quick than in past winters but this does not mean they will not be quick at the first race."

http://en.f1-live.com/f1/en/headlines/news/detail/090311085605.shtml

ArrowsFA1

11th March 2009, 09:07

I'm with Kimi on this one.
Me too :up: It's not until Melbourne that we will see how all the teams stack up against each other.

Dzeidzei

11th March 2009, 09:11

Me too :up: It's not until Melbourne that we will see how all the teams stack up against each other.

I sure hope McL get their act together. It would be embarrassing for them to be the slowest Merc team which seems to be the case now. And I want Heikki to be there in the top 5 at least.

Beating that brat, of course :)

christophulus

11th March 2009, 09:40

..or maybe I was wrong

http://www.f1way.com/news/2009/March/11/mclaren-not-where-we-want-to-be---haug

McLaren appear to be struggling with the rear wing, not sure how reliable that source is though. Another 4 days testing in Jerez next week, last chance to put it right

Knock-on

11th March 2009, 11:42

I'm yet to see your answer in the KERS thread related to the position of the KERS motor on the front side of the engine! :p :

Yet again, you have failed to differentiate between fact and opinion.

The links you posted were a technical opinion by a 3rd party of how the KERS is mounted. However, I have no reason to disbelieve it and was merely speculating that for me, it would make more sense to locate the KERS on the transmision rather than directly infront of the engine although I have no evidence either way. It was my opinion.

As I said in that thread, you may well be right and I am quite happy to conceed you are when you provide some evidence of where the Ferrari KERS provides drive. When you do, I will comment on that thread again.

Back to this one, would you care to produce all these posts that claim the Ferrari pipes are illegal as my recollection is that most people said they would be illegal if used in Aus as would the McLaren wing but there is no illegality whatsoever in using either in testing.

More than happy to be proved wrong though :p :

jjanicke

11th March 2009, 15:16

It's found on the thread where some Mac fans called the Ferrari exhaust pipes illegal and now are hiding behind their finger! ;)

understood!

So there's really nothing illegal with Mclaren's wing. It would only be illegal if they tried to enter a race with it.

ioan

12th March 2009, 08:41

I recall posting that it didn't matter about the pipes so long as they didn't turn up in Melbourne expecting to run them - exactly the same view I hold about McLaren's wing. I seem to recall many other posters agreeing.

Obviously if you have any evidence to the contrary, feel free to provide it - you pride yourself on backing up your opinions.

Dave, I didn't name you, if it sounded like I did than I'm sorry. It was directed to the ones who did what I was talking about!

ioan

12th March 2009, 08:44

Yet again, you have failed to differentiate between fact and opinion.

The links you posted were a technical opinion by a 3rd party of how the KERS is mounted. However, I have no reason to disbelieve it and was merely speculating that for me, it would make more sense to locate the KERS on the transmision rather than directly infront of the engine although I have no evidence either way. It was my opinion.

As I said in that thread, you may well be right and I am quite happy to conceed you are when you provide some evidence of where the Ferrari KERS provides drive. When you do, I will comment on that thread again.

Back to this one, would you care to produce all these posts that claim the Ferrari pipes are illegal as my recollection is that most people said they would be illegal if used in Aus as would the McLaren wing but there is no illegality whatsoever in using either in testing.

More than happy to be proved wrong though :p :

Exactly as I thought, you are chickening out, as you do everytime it's proved that your "technical" assumptions (sorry I can't call it knowledge) are wrong.

FYI f1.com is the official F1 site, not a 3rd party anything.

:s mokin:

ioan

12th March 2009, 08:45

understood!

So there's really nothing illegal with Mclaren's wing. It would only be illegal if they tried to enter a race with it.

Of course there isn't anything illegal as long as they won't use it during a race, it was just payback time to some hypocrites performed in the 2009 Mac thread.

SGWilko

12th March 2009, 09:04

Of course there isn't anything illegal as long as they won't use it during a race, it was just payback time to some hypocrites performed in the 2009 Mac thread.

Ding a ling a ling....

Play time over children, time for milkies.

Teeeeerrrrrrrrrrrr.........wwwwwwwaaaaaaattttttttt tt

Dave B

12th March 2009, 09:51

Dave, I didn't name you, if it sounded like I did than I'm sorry. It was directed to the ones who did what I was talking about!
Fair play to ya' then sir :)

Back to McLaren, and here's Ron's explanation for their lack of outright pace so far:

"The objective is to go to Australia and be the most competitive car there, not to come out of every single test at the top of the timesheets. Testing is about a disciplined approach to making the car go faster and you have to ignore the performance of the other teams."

"We lost some time," said Dennis. "We had a strategy for this year to leave it to the last possible moment to produce our aerodynamic package for the Australian Grand Prix.
"That in itself gave us some production challenges and we have really only started to run the car in the last day with the Australian aero package."

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73672

Let's hope he's right.

Dave B

12th March 2009, 10:25

ArrowsFA1

12th March 2009, 10:45

Fact is, heading the pre-season testing time sheets doesn't win you anything, much as Felipe may like it to :p

Brawn apparently being quick now may be a boost for a new team, and McLaren apparently struggling a bit may make Ferrari fans happy but this is all the warm-up for the main event, which is the championship which starts in just over a couple of weeks.

I am evil Homer

12th March 2009, 10:51

Well quite...just as being quick on a Friday doesn't make Ant worthy of an F1 seat :D ;)

leopard

12th March 2009, 10:59

Felipe used to win a lot of pre-season testing, but not this year, perhaps because no one would hear his idea of testing championship, or perhaps also he started being aware of the fact that winning pre season testing only give him 2nd if not 4th place.
He is well familiar with the car now, no need massive tests. :)

Hawkmoon

12th March 2009, 20:54

The great thing about winter testing is the comments the times elicit from the fans.

At the moment all the McLaren fans are saying McLaren are sandbagging or it's only testing or McLaren will be alright come Melbourne. If McLaren were consistently at the top of the times they would be saying stuff about Lewis' second championship being in the bag already.

Ferrari fans on the other hand are viciously enjoying seeing Hamilton and McLaren propping up the times and dismissing the "excuses" from the McLaren people. If McLaren were on top the comments would be more in the "it's only testing" range.

The fact of the matter, is that it is only testing and it will come as a big surprise if McLaren suck and Brawn are at the front. Let us not forget those former champions of winter testing, Arrows. May they rest in peace.

V12

13th March 2009, 02:28

The truth is probably somewhere in between. I doubt they have the strongest package out there - but I'll be surprised if they don't:

- Figure among the top three (or at least four) teams in Melbourne
- Win races this season
- Contend for the championship come the end.

jjanicke

13th March 2009, 03:36

Of course there isn't anything illegal as long as they won't use it during a race, it was just payback time to some hypocrites performed in the 2009 Mac thread.

All these years and now I'm finally starting to understand "you" (or rather ioan) a little better. ;)

I think we will have a fun '09!!!

jjanicke

13th March 2009, 03:41

From any of my past experiences we should all just enjoy this testing banter and get ready for what's going to happen in a few short weeks. :) :) :) :) :)

Testing doesn't even tell half the story.

F1boat

13th March 2009, 07:04

Dzeidzei

13th March 2009, 08:28

Interesting that James Allen (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/that-mclarenferrari-start/) reckons that, due to testing being banned during the season, McLaren have even been testing some Monaco parts.

Well, they have even been testing some 08 parts. To me thats either a total waste of rare testing time or a sign of total crisis.

Or could you think of Brawn gp testing on 08 tyres just to see, how it would go?

I am very surprised that McL are so far behind. Even with the 2nd son of god holding the steering wheel. And for the sake of 2009 season and competition in general I hope they do sort things out. Quickly.

Dave B

13th March 2009, 09:17

Well, they have even been testing some 08 parts. To me thats either a total waste of rare testing time or a sign of total crisis.
Or, playing devil's advocate, it's a good way of getting data against a known control variable (ie the '08 wing). There are reports (http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/09/ja-at-the-barcelona-test-day-one/), for example, that McLaren have had issues with their rear tyre wear and don't know for sure whether that's caused by the diffuser or the wing. Bolting on that old wing gives them a baseline performance which may stop them going down a blind alley.

The golden rule in testing is to only change one variable at a time; the regulation changes have forced teams to run entirely new cars, so running components with a vast amount of historical data could give a team a useful baseline. Ron's been saying that there are still new parts in the pipeline, very late in the development cycle, so maybe they've unlocked something.

There are three possibilities, really.

1) McLaren are sandbagging and have a quick car.
2) McLaren are struggling and are panicking because they don't have a solution.
3) McLaren are cleverly ensuring they test every variable before the testing ban kicks in.

Who knows? Without access to the teams' confidential data none of us know what any of the cars are testing for sure. All I know is Melbourne is going to be very interesting... :D

Knock-on

13th March 2009, 09:24

Exactly as I thought, you are chickening out, as you do everytime it's proved that your "technical" assumptions (sorry I can't call it knowledge) are wrong.

FYI f1.com is the official F1 site, not a 3rd party anything.

:s mokin:

Really? I didn't know they had access to the Ferrari design.

However, far from Chickening out :yawn: I merely stated my stance that it seems logical to me to have the input from KERS to the transmission rather than the engine where some of the boosted power would be lost.

I have no problem with being wrong in my assumption as I have always stated it is an opinion based on a logical assumption and not a fact.

However, if you want to get all emotional and feel this is "Chickening out" then please feel free my excitable little friend. ;)

Dave B

13th March 2009, 09:43

I don't know how reliable this (http://www.f1network.net/main/s208/st140246.htm) is, but it suggests that the KERS system connects directly to the crankshaft - on the Renault at least.

An electric motor (MGU: Motor Generator Unit) situated between the fuel tank and the engine, linked directly to the crankshaft of the V8 to deliver additional power.

However, it goes on to say this:

6. Does the MGU have to be positioned between the engine and the fuel tank?
No. It’s possible to situate it parallel to the gearbox in the rear of the car. So it’s connected straight to the rear wheels and releases its power through the differential.

ArrowsFA1

13th March 2009, 10:31

McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh has openly admitted the MP4-24 is not as competitive as the team was hoping it would be at this point of the pre-season.

When asked if the car was fast enough at the moment, he added: "Not at the moment - and certainly not by our team's extremely high standards."

Mercedes-Benz motorsport boss Norbert Haug said the problems will need time before they are solved.
"We are definitely not where we want to be. We will continue our test programme next week at Jerez for another four days. But it will take time to improve," Haug said.
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73695

jens

13th March 2009, 10:41

Already in February it was visible that something is wrong with MP4/24. Now finally the confirmation is coming...

Tazio

13th March 2009, 11:07

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73695Originally Posted by
McLaren's Martin Whitmarsh has openly admitted the MP4-24 is not as competitive as the team was hoping it would be at this point of the pre-season.

When asked if the car was fast enough at the moment, he added: "Not at the moment - and certainly not by our team's extremely high standards."

Mercedes-Benz motorsport boss Norbert Haug said the problems will need time before they are solved.
"We are definitely not where we want to be. We will continue our test programme next week at Jerez for another four days. But it will take time to improve," Haug said.

I have to take both of those comments with a pinch of salt the size of Uranus :confused:
:rotflmao:

Dzeidzei

13th March 2009, 11:34

Or, playing devil's advocate, it's a good way of getting data against a known control variable (ie the '08 wing).

And that´s assuming they know how this variable (08 wing) plays in the new chassis.

That´s assuming a lot.

I´d tend to think it´s a crisis. And it seems the team is admitting to it now.

F1boat

13th March 2009, 11:45

I wonder whether Norbert will go to the Brawn GP garage, if the new team is really quicker than the McLaren.

Knock-on

13th March 2009, 11:52

I thought something was up. They are really struggleing but obviously slowly clawing time back.

Next weeks test has to be Stellar if they are not going to be blown out of the water come Aus.

Tazio

13th March 2009, 12:46

I wonder whether Norbert will go to the Brawn GP garage, if the new team is really quicker than the McLaren.I wonder if Ross will insist that Norbie kiss his feat before entering :dozey:

Tazio

13th March 2009, 13:04

:rolleyes: I actually meant "feet" :crazy:

wedge

13th March 2009, 13:48

Am the only one who thinks this will be only a good thing for Hamilton? There's something special when a great driver performs in an inferior car.

I am evil Homer

13th March 2009, 13:57

:rolleyes: I actually meant "feet" :crazy:

I did wonder if that was some sort of innuendo :D

Sonic

13th March 2009, 14:17

Am the only one who thinks this will be only a good thing for Hamilton? There's something special when a great driver performs in an inferior car.

No. I'd be really interested to see what he can do in a bucket of bolts.

It was only the other day on the 'best season' thread that I thought of Senna in a McLaren Ford in 1993 that was hugely inferior to the Williams, behind the Benetton with the same engine and only just on par with the Saubers and Ferrari's and in the hands of anyone else was only capable of top 8. Yet he won FIVE times! Amazing.

If the Mac is poor and we see something like that again Hamilton will go from super star to MEGA star.

Knock-on

13th March 2009, 14:29

No. I'd be really interested to see what he can do in a bucket of bolts.

It was only the other day on the 'best season' thread that I thought of Senna in a McLaren Ford in 1993 that was hugely inferior to the Williams, behind the Benetton with the same engine and only just on par with the Saubers and Ferrari's and in the hands of anyone else was only capable of top 8. Yet he won FIVE times! Amazing.

If the Mac is poor and we see something like that again Hamilton will go from super star to MEGA star.

You would think so ;)

It will be more like Hamilton is obviously in the best car but can't keep up with the inferior Ferrari while HK is being sabotaged to make Lewis look good :laugh:

Brown, Jon Brow

13th March 2009, 14:30

Am the only one who thinks this will be only a good thing for Hamilton? There's something special when a great driver performs in an inferior car.

As with Alonso last year. Winning in that Renault showed us that he is probably the best out there.

wedge

13th March 2009, 14:58

As with Alonso last year. Winning in that Renault showed us that he is probably the best out there.

And you also get more respect in an inferior car because the best driver in the best car can look invincible.

Alonso seems to be respected more as a driver last year than the previous year.

Certainly I respected Senna more in 1993 than in previous years, I respect Prost more in his Ferrari days, Schumi in his early Ferrari days too.

DexDexter

13th March 2009, 18:07

And you also get more respect in an inferior car because the best driver in the best car can look invincible.

Alonso seems to be respected more as a driver last year than the previous year.

Certainly I respected Senna more in 1993 than in previous years, I respect Prost more in his Ferrari days, Schumi in his early Ferrari days too.

That's true, if you perfom in an inferior car, you get serious respect. I never had that much respect for Damon Hill, but 97 Hungarian GP was just mega, one lap from victory in an Arrows! Ok, they had a tire advantage but still it was one of the best moments of F1 ever when Hill passed Schumi on the front straight, you could actually hear the crowd cheering.

Tazio

13th March 2009, 19:49

jens

13th March 2009, 20:37

Am the only one who thinks this will be only a good thing for Hamilton? There's something special when a great driver performs in an inferior car.

Yeah, that may be the positive side of McLaren's uncompetitiveness. There are people, who just can't wait to see Hamilton finally getting a "bad car" and having to "prove himself". And "earn" his place in F1. Those hopes may just get fulfilled this year. ;)

I don't think we will see massive miracles in dry conditions (we have a lot of competitive teams & drivers to stop a one-man-show), but I would personally be excited to see, what can Lewis do in the wet in an underperforming car. A possible podium contention?

Sonic

13th March 2009, 20:37

As with Alonso last year. Winning in that Renault showed us that he is probably the best out there.

I disagree. When the car was poor in the first half of the season FA seemed jaded and generally made a bit of a hash of things. I think it was Germany where he just went backwards from 5th on the grid driving way too aggressively. It was only when the car became a better package that he seemed to break out of his doldrums and pushing on again. A lucky win and one ballsy win didn't over rule my opinion of his whole season though.

Tazio

13th March 2009, 22:00

As with Alonso last year. Winning in that Renault showed us that he is probably the best out there.It's too difficult of a comparison. The first thing you have to take into consideration is experience as opposed to raw talent How much of it was Fred just saying I'm going to drive the wheels off this thing. How valuable was his input. How badly did he want to stay there? How badly did they want to keep him? Like Fred Lewis knows how to win. If the Mac is a clunker Lewis will undoubtedly be taking some flying lessons on the track. What I find endearing about Fred and many other racers is after accomplishing a goal, winning the whole shooting match, considering the amount of money they have to have amassed. The dedication and determination is still there even in a second tier car! But most importantly how much Freakin' fun are these guys actually having? To a man AAAAAA Lot

Brown, Jon Brow

13th March 2009, 23:06

Yeah, that may be the positive side of McLaren's uncompetitiveness. There are people, who just can't wait to see Hamilton finally getting a "bad car" and having to "prove himself". And "earn" his place in F1. Those hopes may just get fulfilled this year. ;)

I don't think we will see massive miracles in dry conditions (we have a lot of competitive teams & drivers to stop a one-man-show), but I would personally be excited to see, what can Lewis do in the wet in an underperforming car. A possible podium contention?

Lewis in an underperforming car will probably just overdrive it. He's too hot headed.

wedge

13th March 2009, 23:56

I disagree. When the car was poor in the first half of the season FA seemed jaded and generally made a bit of a hash of things. I think it was Germany where he just went backwards from 5th on the grid driving way too aggressively. It was only when the car became a better package that he seemed to break out of his doldrums and pushing on again. A lucky win and one ballsy win didn't over rule my opinion of his whole season though.

You're making it out like a no-win situation a bit like Malaysia 2007 - Hamilton made Massa look stupid but at least Massa attempted to overtake. If you sit back and do nothing you're criticised, if you attack too much and go over the limit - you look stupid.

Fighting for WDC in previous years Alonso very rarely made mistakes. True, he was too hot headed and made mistakes but he had nothing to lose because he wasn't for WDC so maximum attack all the way.

Lewis in an underperforming car will probably just overdrive it. He's too hot headed.

Which is one of the reasons why an inferior car can be a good thing. Best to learn in that environment than risk repeating history.

Sonic

14th March 2009, 19:04

You're making it out like a no-win situation a bit like Malaysia 2007 - Hamilton made Massa look stupid but at least Massa attempted to overtake. If you sit back and do nothing you're criticised, if you attack too much and go over the limit - you look stupid.

Its not no win. To be a great driver you have to be able to race, pass and stay ahead. Sato was always balls out max attack but he rarely pulled off the move without tripping over another car or failing to hold the position (Nurburgring anyone?). And whilst Alonso is way better than Sato at certain points last season he looked merely average.

Big Ben

14th March 2009, 22:58

No. I'd be really interested to see what he can do in a bucket of bolts.

It was only the other day on the 'best season' thread that I thought of Senna in a McLaren Ford in 1993 that was hugely inferior to the Williams, behind the Benetton with the same engine and only just on par with the Saubers and Ferrari's and in the hands of anyone else was only capable of top 8. Yet he won FIVE times! Amazing.

If the Mac is poor and we see something like that again Hamilton will go from super star to MEGA star.

and after that we´ll just run out of ridiculous epithets.

Big Ben

14th March 2009, 23:00

You would think so ;)

It will be more like Hamilton is obviously in the best car but can't keep up with the inferior Ferrari while HK is being sabotaged to make Lewis look good :laugh:

good choice to use the :laugh: . I´ve only realized it was funny when I got to it.
you´d think so but there are stupid people who don´t think he´s super duper, mega extra star.

wedge

15th March 2009, 12:55

Its not no win. To be a great driver you have to be able to race, pass and stay ahead. Sato was always balls out max attack but he rarely pulled off the move without tripping over another car or failing to hold the position (Nurburgring anyone?). And whilst Alonso is way better than Sato at certain points last season he looked merely average.

When you race at maximum attack then you race on the absolute limit then you're even at more at risk to make errors. It's a fine line, Alonso should know better but what has he got to lose because what was he fighting for last year? What did he have to lose?

WDC fight was completely different. Very rarely did he make mistakes. In fact, he had some fantastic wheel to wheel battles along the way.

Tazio

15th March 2009, 13:37

When you race at maximum attack then you race on the absolute limit then you're even at more at risk to make errors. It's a fine line, Alonso should know better but what has he got to lose because what was he fighting for last year? What did he have to lose?

WDC fight was completely different. Very rarely did he make mistakes. In fact, he had some fantastic wheel to wheel battles along the way.

;) :up:

raikk

17th March 2009, 07:13

I pray this is not 2006 all over again...

jens

17th March 2009, 09:03

I pray this is not 2006 all over again...

2006 is very optimistic I have to say. :p : Current situation looks closer to 2004.

pino

17th March 2009, 09:12

I pray this is not 2006 all over again...

I thought you were a Kimi fan... :confused: :p :

F1boat

17th March 2009, 10:20

A tender hope is rising in me, that McLaren will be uncompetitive this season. But we'll see.

raikk

18th March 2009, 07:08

I thought you were a Kimi fan... :confused: :p :

where have you been the last 3 years :p : to be fair though Ive been a bit busy with racing these past 2 years so I havent been able to visit these forums as much as I'd like too..

I'll always be a Mclaren fan but I like Kimi as a driver..

F1boat

18th March 2009, 15:29

raikk - good news for you and bad for me - Heikki scores 1.18.2 at Valencia, so McLaren now has probably fixed their problems.

jaz08

18th March 2009, 15:39

For me i will still believe to the Ferrari Driver.Michael Schumacher is the best F1 driver in history.Its the Ferrari versus the Mercedes forever.

ioan

18th March 2009, 15:51

raikk - good news for you and bad for me - Heikki scores 1.18.2 at Valencia, so McLaren now has probably fixed their problems.

I thought they were testing in Jerez.

F1boat

18th March 2009, 15:53

I thought they were testing in Jerez.

Of course! My mistake, ioan. Jerez - 1.18.2 at Jerez. Sorry.

ioan

18th March 2009, 15:56

Of course! My mistake, ioan. Jerez - 1.18.2 at Jerez. Sorry.

No need to be sorry mate. I wasn't sure about it either as I didn't follow testing this week as closely as before.

jens

18th March 2009, 17:48

raikk - good news for you and bad for me - Heikki scores 1.18.2 at Valencia, so McLaren now has probably fixed their problems.

I don't think we can make ultimate conclusions based on one quick laptime, especially as there isn't a comparison with most of the rivals from the same day (=same conditions).

Dave B

19th March 2009, 11:11

James Allen's blog is fast-becoming one of the better places for F1 news, and he reckons that McLaren's time isn't actually that impressive:

However, when you look at the long run times, the picture is not so encouraging for them. In comparable runs, albeit on different days, Button does a 10 lap run on Tuesday with laps mainly in the high 1m 18s and a couple of high 1m 19s.

Meanwhile yesterday Kova did only one long run, a 12 lapper, which was mainly in the low 1m 20s. So on that basis, McLaren is still some way behind on the long runs.

Full story: http://allenonf1.wordpress.com/2009/03/19/more-detail-on-mclarens-new-found-pace/