What's more expensive? [Archive]

big_sw2000

27th February 2009, 06:36

Testing to see what driving on tarmac with a gravel car is like?

Or running with the tarmac setup and then the gravel setup on the rally?
This comes after The Gronholm roll up on Epynt. If there is a big crash all hell will break lose. If they are running on Tarmac, they should at least us the correct tyres

Sulland

27th February 2009, 08:15

This comes after The Gronholm roll up on Epynt. If there is a big crash all hell will break lose. If they are running on Tarmac, they should at least us the correct tyres

Yes but at the same time - these guys are supposed to be the best rally drivers in the world. If they are not able to feel the limit on tyres and the thing the tyres are rolling against, they will go off.

I think the multi surface rallies is a good idea, and the generalists will have a chance against the specialists !

It is all about feeling the limit, and not go over it, no matter what suspension and tyres you are allowed !

Daniel

27th February 2009, 10:11

Testing to see what driving on tarmac with a gravel car is like?

Or running with the tarmac setup and then the gravel setup on the rally?
I think the problem is more for the people who can't afford to do either.

Leon

27th February 2009, 10:20

Yes but at the same time - these guys are supposed to be the best rally drivers in the world. If they are not able to feel the limit on tyres and the thing the tyres are rolling against, they will go off.

I think the multi surface rallies is a good idea, and the generalists will have a chance against the specialists !

It is all about feeling the limit, and not go over it, no matter what suspension and tyres you are allowed !

Also consider for the moment what is happening in real life. How many of you change suspension and tyres on your car when you drive from tarmac to gravel and vise versa.

Daniel

27th February 2009, 10:21

Also consider for the moment what is happening in real life. How many of you change suspension and tyres on your car when you drive from tarmac to gravel and vise versa.

Yes but how many of you are doing 100mph or so on gravel? :erm:

cosmicpanda

27th February 2009, 10:52

nobody in Cyprus :D

Brother John

27th February 2009, 11:15

My wife can be more expensive sometimes. :D

DonJippo

27th February 2009, 13:00

Testing to see what driving on tarmac with a gravel car is like?

Or running with the tarmac setup and then the gravel setup on the rally?

You would need to test with both set-ups anyway so there is no difference in there.

big_sw2000

27th February 2009, 13:26

Yes but at the same time - these guys are supposed to be the best rally drivers in the world. If they are not able to feel the limit on tyres and the thing the tyres are rolling against, they will go off.

I think the multi surface rallies is a good idea, and the generalists will have a chance against the specialists !

It is all about feeling the limit, and not go over it, no matter what suspension and tyres you are allowed !
Totaly agree with you. But if the Wales Rally GB became a mixed surface event. Lets say Epynt, (in our dreams) that would be awsome. There is noway you could drive on a gravel set up.
What im saying is if there is a big accident, the thats what will be blamed. Gravel set up, on Tarmac. Think it could be fun to watch though.

Mirek

27th February 2009, 14:45

In Austria, close to Czech borders every autumn Rally Waldviertel takes place. It's mixed event with mostly Austrian national entry and some international guests, only few profesional teams. It is common to change setups from tarmac to gravel and also to change tyres there. For example last year most of the crews used tarmac settings for leg 1 and gravel for leg 2. If it was expensive like hell, it wouldn't be very popular rally...

JFL

27th February 2009, 14:47

I think they will use a medium set up.. Like in Rallycross..

Sulland

27th February 2009, 15:50

Yes but how many of you are doing 100mph or so on gravel? :erm:

That happens, but mostly on roads that goes straight ahead :p

Daniel

27th February 2009, 16:16

That happens, but mostly on roads that goes straight ahead :p
Yes I've done that before too. But WRCars have to do it on very small straights compared to what you and I would do it on ;)

sollitt

27th February 2009, 20:44

big_sw2000

27th February 2009, 21:43

I imagine that in most rallying countries there are, or have been, multi surface rallies on which club or national level competitors find a way of competing safely.
It amazes me that as soon as we tag an event a WRC round or an FIA event we need to rewrite the rule book to suit that level of competitor.

Rather than events being manipulated to suit the drivers and their machinery shouldn't the drivers equip themselves to contest the event competitively.

This is not a chicken & egg situation.
The fact of the matter is Tarmac rallying on Gravel tyres is dangerous.
So why not let the use tarmac tyres.
But they are trying to reduce the cost of the championship. Although i would love to see a return off mixed surface events. I know that Wales Rally GB are watching closely. We have some of the best most famous bits of tarmac in the world. And its in the right part of the country, ask any one about Epynt.
But again, it would be so dangerous to run Epynt on gravel tyres.

cosmicpanda

27th February 2009, 22:27

Then again, they did alright in the wet in Ireland with snow tyres.

big_sw2000

27th February 2009, 22:35

Then again, they did alright in the wet in Ireland with snow tyres.
They were not true snow tyres though. Theywere extreame weather tyres, very similar to what the IRC used on the Monty, but with out the studs.
They were basically a very heavy cut tarmac tyre, not a nobley gravel tyre.
Take a look
http://www.crash.net/World+Rally/News/122438/1/pirelli_to_take_snow_tyre_to_ireland.html
Hardly a gravel tyre

Daniel

28th February 2009, 09:02

They were not true snow tyres though. Theywere extreame weather tyres, very similar to what the IRC used on the Monty, but with out the studs.
They were basically a very heavy cut tarmac tyre, not a nobley gravel tyre.
Take a look
http://www.crash.net/World+Rally/News/122438/1/pirelli_to_take_snow_tyre_to_ireland.html
Hardly a gravel tyre

He didn't say it was a gravel tyre :) He said a snow tyre and it was a snow tyre. It's the tyre that they use on the Monte for running on snow :)

Daniel

28th February 2009, 09:11

The fact of the matter is Tarmac rallying on Gravel tyres is dangerous.
So why not let the use tarmac tyres.
But they are trying to reduce the cost of the championship. Although i would love to see a return off mixed surface events. I know that Wales Rally GB are watching closely. We have some of the best most famous bits of tarmac in the world. And its in the right part of the country, ask any one about Epynt.
But again, it would be so dangerous to run Epynt on gravel tyres.

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to pull you up on this, you're talking rubbish about gravel tyres on tarmac. Gravel tyres on tarmac are actually more progressive and safer. Using gravel tyres on tarmac actually lowers cornering speed because of the loss of ultimate grip and they will be actually more progressive (predictable) when it comes to loss of grip which makes for safer rallying.

You should always take a drivers comments after a crash with a pinch of salt because a lot of the time they will try to blame someone else but themselves :) Why is it that Gronholm went off and just about everyone else managed to keep on the road other than Francois IIRC who probably still thinks it's the codrivers fault :laugh:

The gravel tyres will make for a great show and it will be interesting to see how the drivers deal with the tyre wear because even hard gravel tyres are going to wear like buggery on twisty tarmac (if the tarmac roads are anything like the gravel ones!)

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 10:27

I'm sorry but I'm going to have to pull you up on this, you're talking rubbish about gravel tyres on tarmac. Gravel tyres on tarmac are actually more progressive and safer. Using gravel tyres on tarmac actually lowers cornering speed because of the loss of ultimate grip and they will be actually more progressive (predictable) when it comes to loss of grip which makes for safer rallying.

You should always take a drivers comments after a crash with a pinch of salt because a lot of the time they will try to blame someone else but themselves :) Why is it that Gronholm went off and just about everyone else managed to keep on the road other than Francois IIRC who probably still thinks it's the codrivers fault :laugh:

The gravel tyres will make for a great show and it will be interesting to see how the drivers deal with the tyre wear because even hard gravel tyres are going to wear like buggery on twisty tarmac (if the tarmac roads are anything like the gravel ones!)
Ok i agree with what your saying, but the corning grip with gravel tyres is not consitant.
Why the hell do you think diffrent tyre are disigned for diffrent surfaces.
Again it will be spectacular to watch, and i hope things dont go bad, and im sure they wont.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/loeb-slams-gravel-tire-idea-for-cyprus-4338.html

Mirek

28th February 2009, 10:57

Saw some tarmac places on gravel tyres and it wasn't fun (even with good drivers like Stohl or Wittmann). Drivers were too cautious while on wrong tyres. Since I saw huge number of tarmac rallys before, I prefer tarmac tyres even from spectator's point of view...

Daniel

28th February 2009, 11:01

Ok i agree with what your saying, but the corning grip with gravel tyres is not consitant.
Why the hell do you think diffrent tyre are disigned for diffrent surfaces.
Again it will be spectacular to watch, and i hope things dont go bad, and im sure they wont.
http://www.autoevolution.com/news/loeb-slams-gravel-tire-idea-for-cyprus-4338.html

Boo frickin' hoo. Back in the old days the drivers had tyres which could be worn out in one stage as well and they dealt with it. I think that's a very poor statement from Loeb which doesn't make much sense.

sollitt

28th February 2009, 11:01

The fact of the matter is Tarmac rallying on Gravel tyres is dangerous. No it's not. But I don't advocate it.

So why not let the use tarmac tyres.
Competitors should always be able to use tarmac tyres on tarmac stages.

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 11:21

Boo frickin' hoo. Back in the old days the drivers had tyres which could be worn out in one stage as well and they dealt with it. I think that's a very poor statement from Loeb which doesn't make much sense.
Its correct what your saying, in the old day drivers just got on with it. They have become a bunch of wimps now.
Look at Portugal in the mid 80s, a mixed surface event with group B cars.

Daniel

28th February 2009, 11:40

Its correct what your saying, in the old day drivers just got on with it. They have become a bunch of wimps now.
Look at Portugal in the mid 80s, a mixed surface event with group B cars.

I wouldn't say they're wimps. I certainly agree that the drivers should be able to cut tyres when it's muddy or use snow tyres when it's snowy or icy like in Rally GB last year.

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 11:46

I wouldn't say they're wimps. I certainly agree that the drivers should be able to cut tyres when it's muddy or use snow tyres when it's snowy or icy like in Rally GB last year.
So why not tarmac tyres on tarmac.

Daniel

28th February 2009, 11:48

So why not tarmac tyres on tarmac.
Because there aren't the same safety issues :)

Tarmac tyres on snowy/icy tarmac = 0 grip
Gravel tyres on ice/snow = 0 grip
Gravel tyres on tarmac = lots of grip, just not as much as tarmac tyres on tarmac.

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 11:53

Daniel

28th February 2009, 11:55

Forgot about this Epynt. Now we all now what happend to Gronholm on the Tarmac section coming to Deers leap, and he was joined by a Mitsubishi and Toyota.
Have a look at this, 1st two crashes, Epynt tarmac gravel set up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLrekCXRDXY
All 3 of those drivers are very inexperienced. All the first two did was miss their braking points the third clipped something :mark:

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 12:43

All 3 of those drivers are very inexperienced. All the first two did was miss their braking points the third clipped something :mark:
Ignore the third crash, Andreas Mikelson on gravel, but spectacular :)

Viridian Black

28th February 2009, 15:44

Isn't the run up to the corner pons and Rautencrash crashed at a gravel surface? and only turns tarmac at the junction they missed.

big_sw2000

28th February 2009, 17:54

Isn't the run up to the corner pons and Rautencrash crashed at a gravel surface? and only turns tarmac at the junction they missed.
Looking at the video, i think your correct.
Oh well looks like i have to conceed this argument :)
Just a little video to have a look at. I dont think Sordo would make this corner even if he had tarmac tyres. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vFyuasJ9dNo

JFL

28th February 2009, 18:00

A world rally driver, should know both his, and his car/tyres limitasions.. Less grip? Brake earlier..

DonJippo

28th February 2009, 19:48

Tyres are not going to be a problem in Cyprus but brakes can be as they use "gravel" brakes also on Friday, which are smaller than the ones they use on tarmac normally.

Daniel

28th February 2009, 20:13

Tyres are not going to be a problem in Cyprus but brakes can be as they use "gravel" brakes also on Friday, which are smaller than the ones they use on tarmac normally.
Good point. I seem to remember Marcus complaining about brakes in his 307 when they did Mexico and he was saying the roads had the grip of dusty tarmac so it will be interesting to see how they go in Cyprus.

JAM

5th March 2009, 11:58

I think we should start ti be used to mixed rallyes. They are a image of the future.

Year by year is more dificult to find places with good gravel roads, to put a surface gravel in good conditions is very expensive. The solution is to do do mixed rallyes.

For instance, the problem in Cyprus was really the lack of gravel roads to meet the FIA requirements in terms of lenght. The gravel surfaces in Cyprus deteriorat after the 1st loop.

Whats is stupid, is the need to use gravel tyres and suspensions on tarmac. I can't understand that, but ok, FIA decisions are no to be understandable, they are taken to be followed.

DonJippo

5th March 2009, 13:00

Whats is stupid, is the need to use gravel tyres and suspensions on tarmac. I can't understand that, but ok, FIA decisions are no to be understandable, they are taken to be followed.

One more time...it was not FIA's decision but team's. Ford and Citroen agreed to use gravel set-up and tires in Cyprus also on tarmac.