2010 Farewell WRC Cars and Hello S 2000.

[big_sw2000]

I cannot get exited with this S 2000 formula. Okey, maybe the competition will get tighter and attracting new manufacturers ect. But what about the spectacle? What about the jaw dropping sensation of seeing the ultimate rallycar, the best rallycar in the world going sideways? I dont see that happening with S 2000. My feeling is they are basicly less advanced racing type cars that will go on rails even more than WRC cars because of less power to grip ratio.

I would have loved to see someting more brutal, something like a late 90s WRC car, or early 90s GrA car with less electronics, h pattern gearbox, noise. The old time soft settting, high center of gravity rallycar, less built according to racing standards anyway. The Impreza P2000 was described as a "racing car with a sump" I think, in the Rallying Imprezas book. For me this S 2000 feels like it is going in the same direction, with less power.

Im I being to negative? Maybe!
But at the moment I find it difficult to get exited.
I know what your saying. Its like when Group B was banned, and Group A became the norm.
A lot less spectacular and a lot slower. But it evolved to what we got to day.
Its now time for a new change, and yes i think S2000 cars will be a bit boring, but they will evolve with new technolgy.
WRC cars these day are not mega exciting any way.

[JFL]

[quote="Sladden"]I cannot get exited with this S 2000 formula. Okey, maybe the competition will get tighter and attracting new manufacturers ect. But what about the spectacle? What about the jaw dropping sensation of seeing the ultimate rallycar, the best rallycar in the world going sideways? I dont see that happening with S 2000. quote]

Maybe the tyre-suppliers can help with the sideways issue? The noise is there! Today's tyres are much better then the early days, so to get a car to go sideways is difficult..

[Sulland]

I cannot get exited with this S 2000 formula. Okey, maybe the competition will get tighter and attracting new manufacturers ect. But what about the spectacle? What about the jaw dropping sensation of seeing the ultimate rallycar, the best rallycar in the world going sideways? I dont see that happening with S 2000. quote]

Maybe the tyre-suppliers can help with the sideways issue? The noise is there! Today's tyres are much better then the early days, so to get a car to go sideways is difficult..

So we are back to Escort Mk 2 ish cartype - Perfect !

[racer69]

The main point is, to see more cars and drivers everywhere with a payable car. :s mokin:

Exactly. WRC has never been F1, look what has happened lately when it has tried to be!

We need the same rules for national championships, regional series and the WRC. That is what will fill the fields and get the interest back into the thing. It means more places for manufacturers to sell their cars for starters....

[big_sw2000]

Them S2000 cars are not looking bad on gravel in Brazil, should be good watching on Eurosport later.

[Sulland]

If/When S2000 takes over as the top dog, how many manufacturers will we have when it kicks off ?

How many of todays IRC teams will make a switch, or do both do you think ?

[big_sw2000]

If/When S2000 takes over as the top dog, how many manufacturers will we have when it kicks off ?

How many of todays IRC teams will make a switch, or do both do you think ?
Well at best you will have Fiat, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Ford maybe Subaru.
Toyota, Lada, have built cars as well

[DonJippo]

Well at best you will have Fiat, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Ford maybe Subaru.
Toyota, Lada, have built cars as well

Skoda has no plans for comeback, PSA will have only one brand in WRC and Subaru needs to build a S2000 first. Toyota is too busy spending it's money on F1 where as Lada don't have any money (it's production was shut down this week due to lack of money) so out of all those Fiat might be only one to join WRC together with Citroen and Ford.

[ToughMac]

You're forgetting Opel who already have a car built and has its paper work sorted out during the week. Wheter the intention was to build the car with just the IRC in mind is still to be confirmed. As for Skoda entering the WRC are VW not developing an S2000 Scirocco? and Renault had also expressed an interest in developing an S2000 Megane if the WRC went with S2000 or even S2000+. Then again these plans were on the board before the recession really hit home.

[A.F.F.]

Aren't Skoda and PSA selling cars to customers? And Proton and MG might enter as an official team ?

[ToughMac]

Aren't Skoda and PSA selling cars to customers? And Proton and MG might enter as an official team ?

Official team in which category IRC or WRC? IRC in my opinion is still the obvious choice for a new manufacturer entering the sport as there just isn't the same amount of paperwork involved as there is with the WRC. The only way to judge the success from either championship is to get feedback from the manufactures themselves.

[DonJippo]

You're forgetting Opel who already have a car built and has its paper work sorted out during the week. Wheter the intention was to build the car with just the IRC in mind is still to be confirmed. As for Skoda entering the WRC are VW not developing an S2000 Scirocco? and Renault had also expressed an interest in developing an S2000 Megane if the WRC went with S2000 or even S2000+. Then again these plans were on the board before the recession really hit home.

VW is lobbying for 1.6T diesel so don't expect it to be in WRC before 2013, Opel is also in very bad financial situation and has there been any real involvement from the factory while developing Corsa S2000? Renault on the other hand would be intresting one if they really come to rallying, they tend to do things for real in what ever they decide to do.

[A.F.F.]

Ok, I meant WRC.

[Sulland]

Would be nice with Renault involvement, or they could use the Dacia brand to represent Renault in rally. The Logan S2000 has been tested, and works !
It works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BP2uAvxDj0

[Torsen]

i would just love to see a bunch of manufacturers jump in... honda, toyota, & vw...

obviously it wouldn't probably happen... but could you imagine watching rally with 7 manufacturers that are all serious about winning on a new car design... the S2000 would get pushed to the limits a bunch of IRC drivers would get sucked up... i'd be so amazed...

i really hope loeb stays in with the new cars... i'd be so disappointed if he did....

[ToughMac]

VW is lobbying for 1.6T diesel so don't expect it to be in WRC before 2013, Opel is also in very bad financial situation and has there been any real involvement from the factory while developing Corsa S2000? Renault on the other hand would be intresting one if they really come to rallying, they tend to do things for real in what ever they decide to do.

VW is one of the wealthiest manufacturers out their at the minute (got to do with some issue with Porsche buying shares or investing or something.....). It would probably make more sense for them to enter the Scirocco in the WRC as soon as they can. They could just use the motor from the Fabia which has had a hell of a lot of testing and drop it in. The VW name is on the world scene and they could develop the diesel engine for rallying in private. I would'nt be surprised if PSA were doing the same with their Citroen S2000 project, just carry over the internals and probably floorpan from the 207. As for manufacturer involvement there really hasn't been since the beginnning of the world rally cars. PSA Peugeot/Citroen and Skoda have been the only two true manufacturer groups in the last twelve years and every other brand has used private contractors.

[Motorsportfun]

Would be nice with Renault involvement, or they could use the Dacia brand to represent Renault in rally. The Logan S2000 has been tested, and works !
It works: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1BP2uAvxDj0

Renault could use the new Dacia Sandero S2000, according to Italian forthnightly SportRally magazine. http://www.sportautomoto.it ;) ;)


http://img84.imageshack.us/img84/7633/sandero1di7.jpg

[bf1_IRL]

Apologies guys for the delay in replying..


]
The problem is that after making current S2000 sllower, their existence lost sense. They are three times more expensive then gr.N and if they are equal on speed or slower noone buys them. Without selling standard S2000, there will be no S2000+ either and the only result would be that all manufacturers will be hung up for wasting money on useless development.

The other problem is that S2000 uses standard gearbox and loosing 500 rpm means loosing cca 10 km/h of top speed. Do You like top national level rally car with top speed of 155 km/h (Abarth on sixth gear @ 8000 rpm)?


Manufacturers will still have to build S2000 cars anyway should they wish to homologate a WRC car.. There should be still people out there to buy them and if not, they could just use their 25 homologation cars and upgrade them to turn into customer WRCs..




I now see what you are saying. WRCS2000 cars will not be allowed to run outside the WRC. Lets say national level. Or even IRC if it survives.
So 2 cars would have to be developed.
WRCS2000 = 8500RPM, modded aero kit
IRC and other rallying S2000 = 8000RPM standerd aero kit.

So what is the FIA's reason in slowing S2000 cars, and introducing a new WRCS2000 car.


The reason is to keep the World championship on top (as it should be in my opinion) with the fastest cars

..but with that said the new spec of WRC must be made available to customers and ASN's must make the decision to allow them in the various championships.

Getting back to what was mentioned earlier, It is tricky to run two sets of rules on one international event but it can be done. For example the Jim Clark Internation where ITRC and BRC have run to different rules but ran as one rally :)


Exactly. WRC has never been F1, look what has happened lately when it has tried to be!

We need the same rules for national championships, regional series and the WRC. That is what will fill the fields and get the interest back into the thing. It means more places for manufacturers to sell their cars for starters....


Bingo :) More local compeditors with top class cars the better eg. RI 2007 lots and lots of WRCs :D


VW is lobbying for 1.6T diesel so don't expect it to be in WRC before 2013, Opel is also in very bad financial situation and has there been any real involvement from the factory while developing Corsa S2000? Renault on the other hand would be intresting one if they really come to rallying, they tend to do things for real in what ever they decide to do.

My understanding was that VW wants to run to the Diesel S2000 regs that excist for circuit racing and just drop in a WTCC Seat Diesel engine into their Sirroco.

Opel have had some involvement with the Corsa but more to make sure that the quality of car that bears the company name is high as it isn't a fully fledged factory effort..

Dacia canned the Logan project because it apperantley the people in marketing and the like didn't think that a €168,000 Logan reflected the companys cheap and cheerful image..
I'm very surprised by the image above but skecptical.. Photoshop maybe and is this mag a reliable source?

[urabus-denoS2000]

I would love to see the Dacia S2000,would probably become my favourite ;)

[Mirek]

Manufacturers will still have to build S2000 cars anyway should they wish to homologate a WRC car.. There should be still people out there to buy them and if not, they could just use their 25 homologation cars and upgrade them to turn into customer WRCs..


You can clearly see in current WRC state that this doesn't work.

[bf1_IRL]

]You can clearly see in current WRC state that this doesn't work.

Yes with only a limited number of places where you can run WRCs at the moment outside of the World Championship that is the case but there needs to be a shift from the ASNs to allow WR cars compete on their events..

Like as said earlier the gradual slowing of the World championship started with the bans being put in place..

[Mirek]

It's not only up to ASN. ASN may allow them but sometimes it brings a lot of problems. For example in Czech International Championship only 2 rallys are not part of some FIA championship or cup and all the rest must be driven under FIA rulles or with "FIA" and "national" field separated both in results and on stage by several minutes gap...

[Sulland]

FIA's WRC decisions:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73747

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2009/Pages/wmsc_170309.aspx

[big_sw2000]

This makes more sense, keeping S2000 the same at all levels.
Will be intresting to see what happens to the IRC now.

[J.Lindstroem]

FIA's WRC decisions:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73747

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2009/Pages/wmsc_170309.aspx

I whould have prefered that the changes came already next year. Now, 2010 will be another year of what we have now. If not worse!

[Mirek]

I would say that next year Abarth or Proton (or maybe someone else) may start in WRC events with S2000. They won't have chance against WRC but they don't have nercessary experience with WRC events and they need it...

Of course that doesn't mean it will be better champiohsip than this year...

By the way, will PWRC be canceled since 2010 or 2011 or continue with real gr.N only?

[DonJippo]

FIA's WRC decisions:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73747

http://www.fia.com/en-GB/mediacentre/pressreleases/wmsc/2009/Pages/wmsc_170309.aspx

Looking back to the fight over the win in PWRC in Cyprus last weekend does this mean that during 2011 and 2012 we can have grN car winning a WRC event?

[Mirek]

Don't think so. FIA tried hard to slow down current S2000. If they remove extra weight, fuel for turbo-engines or heavy controled tyres not suitable to S2000 in WRC, they'll be faster. In the IRC with different fuel and tyres even Hänninen was totaly off the pace against S2000 in Portugal with worse drivers (he got some 3 minutes from tarmac runner Basso for example)...

And of course, it depends who is driving... Cyprus is also not a good proof as Sandell wasn't testing at all and was using standard client setup. His first kilometers on gravel with the car were on SS7...

[MJW]

I whould have prefered that the changes came already next year. Now, 2010 will be another year of what we have now. If not worse!
Thats what worries me, would be less of a problem if the 2010 season was running january to july and a 'winter calendar' kicking off in august, but as Jordan has now been given and end of October date in 2010, so that indicates to me that WRC cars will be there all through 2010. Maybe if WRC cars were 'de tuned' or penalised to allow S2K cars to be more equal maybe it would help persuade the likes of Abarth / Proton etc. At the moment there is nothing to entice them to join WRC, it could be even more tempting to get a year in IRC in S2K cars for drivers who plan to be around when the new regs kick in. Bit of a messy situation in my opionion.

[Sulland]

Thats what worries me, would be less of a problem if the 2010 season was running january to july and a 'winter calendar' kicking off in august, but as Jordan has now been given and end of October date in 2010, so that indicates to me that WRC cars will be there all through 2010. Maybe if WRC cars were 'de tuned' or penalised to allow S2K cars to be more equal maybe it would help persuade the likes of Abarth / Proton etc. At the moment there is nothing to entice them to join WRC, it could be even more tempting to get a year in IRC in S2K cars for drivers who plan to be around when the new regs kick in. Bit of a messy situation in my opionion.

Yes very messy. It is useless to do WRC in a S2000 car in 2010, if they dont put in a smaller restrictor in the current wrc and go down on minimum weight on the S2000 based car.

I think IRC will blossom even more, since the only thing you get is training on the events - and that is it !

So it would have been better with a clean cut for 2010, and do S2000 for that year. I guess Citroen and Ford have had their say in this decision....

1.6 Turbo makes sense, and will reflect the future better - how much will they be able to get out of those ?

[big_sw2000]

Yes very messy. It is useless to do WRC in a S2000 car in 2010, if they dont put in a smaller restrictor in the current wrc and go down on minimum weight on the S2000 based car.

I think IRC will blossom even more, since the only thing you get is training on the events - and that is it !

So it would have been better with a clean cut for 2010, and do S2000 for that year. I guess Citroen and Ford have had their say in this decision....

1.6 Turbo makes sense, and will reflect the future better - how much will they be able to get out of those ?
Wasn't the Peugeot 205 t16 a 1.6.
Surly there will have to be some penality for WRC cars next year to equal it up a bit.

[Mirek]

205 T16 was 1.8, Delta S4 1.75. Both with very low turbo boost compared to current WRC. They just had no restrictor :)

[big_sw2000]

]205 T16 was 1.8, Delta S4 1.75. Both with very low turbo boost compared to current WRC. They just had no restrictor :)
Thank you, the Delta S4 was supercharged as well

[Mirek]

Yes, but in lower rpm only. That gave it better torque in lower rpm but no change to peak power, which was caused by turbo.

[MJW]

Who knows about 2010 & wrc cars. My guess is Malcolm will want to continue milking the cash cow, but if Citroen and Seb win everything this year they really have nothing to prove. So if Citroen were to leave to develop their S2K car for 2011, or wait to 2013 for the S1.6T leaving Peugeot with the 207 S2K to represent PSA in wrc, Ford will win the wrc 2010. Great acheivement

[Sulland]

Who knows about 2010 & wrc cars. My guess is Malcolm will want to continue milking the cash cow, but if Citroen and Seb win everything this year they really have nothing to prove. So if Citroen were to leave to develop their S2K car for 2011, or wait to 2013 for the S1.6T leaving Peugeot with the 207 S2K to represent PSA in wrc, Ford will win the wrc 2010. Great acheivement

Peugeot already have a 270 hp 207 R3T, that has a 1600 turbo engine !

[MJW]

Peugeot already have a 270 hp 207 R3T, that has a 1600 turbo engine !
In that case it could be Peugoet rallies from 2013, or I guess there will be a reciprocal Citroen model.
I just wish that it would be a clean break end of 2009 for the wrc era. There is so much talented drivers, PG, Atko, Galli, Petter, (ok I know he is rallying now in his own team) waiting and hoping for proper drives. If wrc cars are allowed in 2010 it will not be an equal competition.

[Mirek]

1.6 Turbo may have 150 or 500 Hp easyly. It's just a question of rullles. And even quite cheap 1.6 Turbo without expensive huge turbo boost may have over 300 Hp without restrictor.

[JFL]

I used to own a 1600 turbo :) Ford Escort RST. 270bhp..(Back in 1994) ran it for 30000km, and many laps on the circuit.. :)

[Finni]

http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7778

Seems like FIA is continuing current format also next year. Raport says that S2000 cars are eligible to get points.. But isn't this absurd? Wasn't Nial Mcsea already eligible to get points in Ireland? is there any change? To me it seems that wrc and IRC will get top-drivers scattered also in next year.

I have nothing against continuing wrc but it should happen with three cars in a team!!! Otherwise there is only some poor drivers in top-cars ready to eaten by Seb. At the very least I want to see Atkinson ans Petter in the top cars... They are ing screwing it again, idiots!

[sparco]

No 2011 will come S2000 and 2013 will go 1,6 motors and turbo-this suck and max mosely is idiot.

[J.Lindstroem]

No 2011 will come S2000 and 2013 will go 1,6 motors and turbo-this suck and max mosely is idiot.

I think that we will have an amazing championship in 2011 and 2012! I don't know about 2013, why do you think it sucks?

[Iskald]

I think that we will have an amazing championship in 2011 and 2012! I don't know about 2013, why do you think it sucks?

Probably because "max mosely is idiot"....

[Lousada]

http://www.rallye-info.com/article.asp?sid=0&stid=7778

Seems like FIA is continuing current format also next year. Raport says that S2000 cars are eligible to get points.. But isn't this absurd? Wasn't Nial Mcsea already eligible to get points in Ireland? is there any change? To me it seems that wrc and IRC will get top-drivers scattered also in next year.


It says manufacturer points. So I think this simply means S2000 teams can register for the MT championship. Rather absurd, but as there are only 8 registred WRC teams this year an S2000 crew could wrap up a lot of points during the season by simply staying on the road.

[sparco]

I think that we will have an amazing championship in 2011 and 2012! I don't know about 2013, why do you think it sucks?

Because the engine is so disabled like a moped, i think when come s2000 then come turbo too.

[Gard]

Because the engine is so disabled like a moped, i think when come s2000 then come turbo too.

Actually 1600cc turbo can be great. Easily as powerful as todays WRC. With the same restrictor, it will produce almost the same amount of power and it will rew much higher and sound better. They could be more expensive thow

[Sulland]

So if the final formula is 1600T (R3T), why not do that directly from 2011, and leave S2000 to IRC ?

[wwbroe]

So if the final formula is 1600T (R3T), why not do that directly from 2011, and leave S2000 to IRC ?

Maybe because they are just a little bit jealous about the succes of IRC? :D But you are absolutely right, leave S2000 to IRC and bring the R3T allready from 2011. ;)

[big_sw2000]

Maybe because they are just a little bit jealous about the succes of IRC? :D But you are absolutely right, leave S2000 to IRC and bring the R3T allready from 2011. ;)
You can not leave IRC, it will be more sucseful than the WRC.
The WRC is the blue ribbon championship, well it should be.
How could you have a true World Champion at IRC level, he would only be IRC champion.

[OldF]

But you are absolutely right, leave S2000 to IRC and bring the R3T allready from 2011. ;)

That’s my opinion too.

I would say that the suspension of a S2000 and a WRC are quite similar so the “only” thing they have to do is to develop a 1600T engine. With a 2 bar boost and a suitable turbo I believe that the power could be about 360-380 hp @ around 8000 rpm and torque 370-400 Nm @ 5000 rpm. The peak torque and power would be at about same rpms as the B group cars. And this with no restrictor. The “problem” with restrictors is that the torque increase by about 20% and with this higher torque the same power (360-380 hp) is achieved with revs somewhere around 6000 rpm.

Why does the torque increase with a restrictor?

http://www.rallycars.com/Cars/turbo_restrictors.html

[Mirek]

In my opinion using restrictor is the most expensive way to limit power which a man can imagine. Milions Euro are spent to make as big turbo boost as possible etc. In my opinion some strict turbo regulations and no restrictor is better way (less expensive, better sound, no extreme torque - less stress in engine parts). Without restrictor even a cheap turbo is enough to produce power far over 300 Hp as OldF said.

[Rally Power]

It’s really revolting the way FIA rules this sport!

They took almost 2 years to make a decision about what rally cars use in order to regain manufacturers interest and now that finally there’s a solution the FIA doesn’t feel urgency to implement it!

More 20 months of a suffering world series...what will happen to WRC after all this nonsense?

PS: What about the winter calendar? Wasn’t it examined at the WMSC?

[dimviii]

trying to make current wrc power/torque from an 1600 turbocharged engine even without restrictor is not cheaper.

[OldF]

trying to make current wrc power/torque from an 1600 turbocharged engine even without restrictor is not cheaper.

Not torque, just power.

[Mirek]

dimvii: You don't need to have 800 Nm if there is no restrictor (You may use much higher rpm), therefore You also don't need 4 bars of turbo boost. Pretty common 2 bars may be enough.

Edit: OldF was faster :)

[dimviii]

Mirek todays 1,6 lit to produce 150-175 bhp are working more than 1,5 bar.
its just impossible with 2 bars of boost to have an 1,6 engine with torque that can make ''us'' with open wide eyes in a ss.
Except that nobody must worry about power.Torque is the key of current wrc beeing so fast.And torque without extreme boost pressure even from an 1,6 lit is just impossible.

Fia maybe ''saw'' which brands have 1,6 lit engines and want to push them into the circus.

[OldF]

Mirek todays 1,6 lit to produce 150-175 bhp are working more than 1,5 bar.
its just impossible with 2 bars of boost to have an 1,6 engine with torque that can make ''us'' with open wide eyes in a ss.
Except that nobody must worry about power.Torque is the key of current wrc beeing so fast.And torque without extreme boost pressure even from an 1,6 lit is just impossible.

Fia maybe ''saw'' which brands have 1,6 lit engines and want to push them into the circus.


DIMVII, the Citroen C2 R2 MAX (1,6 l NA engine) produces 190 hp so a 1,6 l turbo engine with a 1,5 bar boost probably produces little more than 150-175 hp.

Source: http://www.evo.co.uk/carreviews/evocarreviews/214425/citroen_c2r2_max.html

[janvanvurpa]

Ladies! Ladies!!!!
OK we know torque is what gives cars the acceleration but do remember (isn't anybody here old school normal aspirated driver? Am I the only one here?) that as I say to customers (I build engines and gearboxes and suspension for rally cars as my sole employment) "What the engine doesn't make for torque, the gearing takes care of."

Acceleration is what? Toque from motor multiplied by the gearbox then multiplied again by the final drive x weight.

1,6 liter only makes X torque? Fine a 1,6 turbo car times the FIA turbo coefficient means it will be able to be lighter and if unrestricted or mildly restricted, will make OK "axx" then you gear it shorter in final drive.
So instead of todays what 4,1 ring and pinion maybe you gear it 4.88.

Doesn't any old timers here remember that of all the GpB motors only Audi and Ford RS200 were 2,0 or larger.
I vaguely recall the GpB 205 was 1730cc

And they went pretty damn good when I watched them.

[big_sw2000]

Ladies! Ladies!!!!
OK we know torque is what gives cars the acceleration but do remember (isn't anybody here old school normal aspirated driver? Am I the only one here?) that as I say to customers (I build engines and gearboxes and suspension for rally cars as my sole employment) "What the engine doesn't make for torque, the gearing takes care of."

Acceleration is what? Toque from motor multiplied by the gearbox then multiplied again by the final drive x weight.

1,6 liter only makes X torque? Fine a 1,6 turbo car times the FIA turbo coefficient means it will be able to be lighter and if unrestricted or mildly restricted, will make OK "axx" then you gear it shorter in final drive.
So instead of todays what 4,1 ring and pinion maybe you gear it 4.88.

Doesn't any old timers here remember that of all the GpB motors only Audi and Ford RS200 were 2,0 or larger.
I vaguely recall the GpB 205 was 1730cc

And they went pretty damn good when I watched them.
Spot on, and some F1 cars were 1.4 in the mid 80s. Bet the Turbo lag was awsome

[Sulland]

I believe in simple rules, what about these:

Course of action 1:
WRC: 1,6 Turbo, 4wd
PWRC and JWRC: S2000, 4wd
GTWRC: N-GT, 2wd

Course of action 2:
WRC: 1,6 Turbo, 4wd
PWRC, JWRC: 1,6 Turbo, detutned, 4wd
GTWRC: N-GT, 2wd

Course of action 3:
WRC: S2000
PWRC,JWRC: S2000
GTWRC: N-GT, 2wd


Keep It Simple Stupid !

Any better ?

[f-cup]

Doesn't any old timers here remember that of all the GpB motors only Audi and Ford RS200 were 2,0 or larger.
I vaguely recall the GpB 205 was 1730cc

And they went pretty damn good when I watched them.

Yes they were, and if anyone remembers F1 cars with tbo engines in mid '80s. They had 1.5 ltr engines and allmost 1000bhp. Well, they had more boost than 2 bar, and no restrictor.

Getting power from 1.6l tbo engine is not expensive, if regulations allows it so. A while back my friend had a 1.6l lada with self installed turbo. It was quite durable and was 250bhp easily. That whole engine cost was about 1000e...

[Iskald]

Spot on, and some F1 cars were 1.4 in the mid 80s. Bet the Turbo lag was awsome

F1 turbo were 1.5 litre. In qualifying trim they pushed out something like 1200-1300 hp. But then they didn`t last for much more than a couple of laps...

[dimviii]

the conversation is tottaly lost!!!
of course a 1,6 lit engine can produce even 800 bhp and 80 kg of torque.
is it going to be cheap?NO!!
Fia wants to change regulations to attract more manufacturers into wrc.
is there anybody on earth that believes a 1,6 lit engine is going to produce current wrc cars bhp/torque with LOWER COSTS? NO!!
why it is not cheap? because the 1,6 lit is going to use more boost than a 2.0 current wrc engine.More boost= more cost.

F1 to produce 1300 bhp from 1,5 liters used to run about 5 bar of boost.Don t mix things that they can t be mixed.And of course it wasn t cheap! or it was??

the problem is the cost,thats why fia wants to change regs.
changing regs and make them more expensive is not for good specially at these economic crisis.

the problem solved if anybody accepts a 1,6 wrc car with 50-60 kg torque and 350 bhp.But this wrc is not going to impress anybody,in comparison with today wrc cars.But is going to be cheap.

@oldF
i am talking about road version cars ie 207 gt-corsa opc etc

[grugsticles]

the conversation is tottaly lost!!!
of course a 1,6 lit engine can produce even 800 bhp and 80 kg of torque.
is it going to be cheap?NO!!
Fia wants to change regulations to attract more manufacturers into wrc.
is there anybody on earth that believes a 1,6 lit engine is going to produce current wrc cars bhp/torque with LOWER COSTS? NO!!
why it is not cheap? because the 1,6 lit is going to use more boost than a 2.0 current wrc engine.More boost= more cost.

F1 to produce 1300 bhp from 1,5 liters used to run about 5 bar of boost.Don t mix things that they can t be mixed.And of course it wasn t cheap! or it was??

the problem is the cost,thats why fia wants to change regs.
changing regs and make them more expensive is not for good specially at these economic crisis.

the problem solved if anybody accepts a 1,6 wrc car with 50-60 kg torque and 350 bhp.But this wrc is not going to impress anybody,in comparison with today wrc cars.But is going to be cheap.

@oldF
i am talking about road version cars ie 207 gt-corsa opc etc
I agree with you on the point of being against the idea of 1.6T engines being cheaper. In no way, shape or form is a 1.6 litre any cheaper than a 2.0 litre.

If they want to reduce the horsepower output, simply have a control turbo charger (only small so that its rated for 300BHP), control boost regulator (or even a wastegate set to say 20 PSI) and then let them use whatever engine they have in their manufacter range that suit the 2.0/1.6 specifications.

Simple, fair and easy to implement.

[janvanvurpa]

the conversation is tottaly lost!!!
of course a 1,6 lit engine can produce even 800 bhp and 80 kg of torque.
is it going to be cheap?NO!!
Fia wants to change regulations to attract more manufacturers into wrc.
is there anybody on earth that believes a 1,6 lit engine is going to produce current wrc cars bhp/torque with LOWER COSTS? NO!!
why it is not cheap? because the 1,6 lit is going to use more boost than a 2.0 current wrc engine.More boost= more cost.

F1 to produce 1300 bhp from 1,5 liters used to run about 5 bar of boost.Don t mix things that they can t be mixed.And of course it wasn t cheap! or it was??

the problem is the cost,thats why fia wants to change regs.
changing regs and make them more expensive is not for good specially at these economic crisis.

the problem solved if anybody accepts a 1,6 wrc car with 50-60 kg torque and 350 bhp.But this wrc is not going to impress anybody,in comparison with today wrc cars.But is going to be cheap.

@oldF
i am talking about road version cars ie 207 gt-corsa opc etc

Did you ignore what I tried to explain about gearing?
Do you understand how gears are essentially levers and smaller engine output is multiplied by using a "bigger lever' such as 4.88:1 or 5,1: 1 final drive or axle ratio?

How do you think normal aspirated rally cars have had such good acceleration since well forever (or at least 35 years). Shorter axle equals whatever more torque you want.

Ask F-cup what the 1600-1800cc Corollas in Finnish F-cup have for axle ratio and he'll tell you 5.35, and those home built cars are driven quicker than most GpN turbo 4wd cars.
My own normal aspirated rally car has 5.45 axle ratio.
"What the motor doesn't do, the axle ratio does"
Of course if you want any top speed then the motor must rev.

Not trying to be mean or a grouch, but do you understand what I'm saying?
Is it a language problem or a concept problem?

[Mirek]

Dimvii: Cureent WRC has tiny restrictor. Without it engine may easyly have twice more power and much higher rpm (much cheaper rallycross cars have around 600 Hp). It's not that hard to make 1.6 turbo without restrictor with same 350 Hp and much higher rpm than current WRC (therefore shorter gears as janvanvurpa says). I realy don't think Delta S4 had slow acceleration with little more than half of WRC torque figure...

As for turbo boost... Do You want to say that when cheap C2 R2 has 190 Hp from 1.6 NA engine, than the same cost 1.6 turbo engine would have less? I realy don't think so. Don't forget that the main thing in road cars now is fuell economy and emissions, not power...

Btw. I was told some time a go that there is 207 R3T in Portugal or Spain with some 270 Hp for 90 tousand Euro. That's one third of S2000 price and funny price compared to WRC...

[dimviii]

@janvanvurpa
i didn t mention something about gearing cause i agree with you in general.Gearing helps,but can t be a substitute for 20 kg torque among wrc cars(1,6lit vs 2,0lit)Except if you think that current wrc cars have gearing problems..
i would like to explain that to me,and how it is going to be cheaper too.
we are talking about 1,6 lit wrc cars instead of current 2.0 lit wrc,and how they can be cheaper.
so the examples of a gr.F doesn t help at all at this conversation.
i d like to explain to me why a s2000 is so slower instead of a mitsi-suba at the exit of hairpins when they have very close top power,and a gear more for the s2000 which helps the whole gearing.
as you can see in my example cant gap with gearing the 20-30 kg of torque.
do you know the top-speed of s2000- kit cars-s1600-r2-r3 against gr N cars? there is some 30 km/h down even with one more gear.
@Mirek
agree with the s4 example but she wasn t cheap!!
with no restrictor costs are going to sky.Different pistons,cranks etc to have strength at 9000 rpm and sky high bhp.
i didn t say that is going to have less,for sure it is going to have more power and torque.But with 2 bars of boost it is not going to produce extreme power,when they produce 175 bhp with more than 1,5 bar.For that you need boost,and running boost in conjuction with antilag and 3 days rallys at 38 celsius plus, is not going to be cheap.It is going to be about the same cost(no restrictor) or more cost(with restrictor)
we are talking about the next step wrc cars,the costs,and if they are going to be faster/slower instead of current wrc.

Facts are they have to be cheaper if we want to see more than two factories in wrc.
can a 1,6 lit wrc be cheaper so to be attractive at x manufacturers,without beeing slower than todays wrc s?
my answer is for beeing cheaper they are going to be slower.

[OldF]

@janvanvurpa
i didn t mention something about gearing cause i agree with you in general.Gearing helps,but can t be a substitute for 20 kg torque among wrc cars(1,6lit vs 2,0lit)Except if you think that current wrc cars have gearing problems..
i would like to explain that to me,and how it is going to be cheaper too.
we are talking about 1,6 lit wrc cars instead of current 2.0 lit wrc,and how they can be cheaper.
so the examples of a gr.F doesn t help at all at this conversation.
i d like to explain to me why a s2000 is so slower instead of a mitsi-suba at the exit of hairpins when they have very close top power,and a gear more for the s2000 which helps the whole gearing.
as you can see in my example cant gap with gearing the 20-30 kg of torque.
do you know the top-speed of s2000- kit cars-s1600-r2-r3 against gr N cars? there is some 30 km/h down even with one more gear.
@Mirek
agree with the s4 example but she wasn t cheap!!
with no restrictor costs are going to sky.Different pistons,cranks etc to have strength at 9000 rpm and sky high bhp.
i didn t say that is going to have less,for sure it is going to have more power and torque.But with 2 bars of boost it is not going to produce extreme power,when they produce 175 bhp with more than 1,5 bar.For that you need boost,and running boost in conjuction with antilag and 3 days rallys at 38 celsius plus, is not going to be cheap.It is going to be about the same cost(no restrictor) or more cost(with restrictor)
we are talking about the next step wrc cars,the costs,and if they are going to be faster/slower instead of current wrc.

Facts are they have to be cheaper if we want to see more than two factories in wrc.
can a 1,6 lit wrc be cheaper so to be attractive at x manufacturers,without beeing slower than todays wrc s?
my answer is for beeing cheaper they are going to be slower.

DIMVIII, now I’m stubborn and want give up. :)

Have a look at this web site. http://translate.google.com/translate?prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.turbotec.com%2Fetusivu%2Fmitsub ishi%2Findex.html&sl=fi&tl=en&history_state0=

For 690 € you get 330 hp (1,36*243 kW=330 hp) from an Evo9. It’s all about mapping because road cars have a mapping for economic fuel consumption and 95-octane fuel etc. Just by mapping a road car that produces 180 hp I believe you can get about 200 hp from it.

Building and tuning a 1,6 l engine with the same regulations as for S2000 plus a turbo (replacing pistons, connecting rods, crankshaft and more aggressive camshafts, intake and exhaust manifolds etc.) and having the best volumetric efficiency around 5000 rpm and using racing fuels etc., I’m quite sure a 1,6 l turbo engine can produce 360 – 380 hp with a peak torque of about 370 – 400 Nm. Even with a 1,5 bar boost I believe the power could be about 310 – 330 hp and a peak torque about 310 – 340 Nm. It’s all about tuning (and mapping). What the top speed and acceleration is depends on used gearbox and final drive ratios and wheel diameter (as janvanvurpa already said).

Of course this all costs but not as much as a WRC car nowadays. If A S2000 costs about 250.000 – 300.000 euros and adding to that a turbo, gearbox and drive shafts etc. that can cope with the higher torque would add the cost with about 50.000 euros (as some more wiser have estimated) you can have a car with at almost the same performance as a WRC car nowadays.

Keep in mind this simple formula: Power (W) = Torque (Nm) * Omega (angular velocity = 2*pi*revs/sec, 1/sec). Converting the formula so you can use hp (DIN, PS etc.) instead of W and rpm instead of angular velocity you just multiply the result with 0,0001424 or divide the result with 7023 => Power (hp = DIN, PS) = Torque (Nm) * revs (rpm) * 0,0001424 or Power (hp = DIN, PS) = Torque (Nm) * revs (rpm) / 7023.

Lets say you have two engines, the first one produces 200 Nm @ 3000 rpm and the other one 200 Nm @ 5000 rpm. At 3000 rpm the first one produces P = 200 * 3000 * 0,0001424 = 85 hp @ 3000 rpm and the second one @ 5000 RPM P = 200 * 5000 * 0,0001424 = 142 hp. As you can see the second one produces more horsepowers with the same amount of torque but at HIGHER REVS.

Janvanvurpa, you have experience, what do you think?

[dimviii]

@oldF
Lets go again!
my evo viii has 372 bhp and 492Nm(1,9 bar overboost/1,6 steady) with a program by a friend for free,and a catless 76mm exaust.Also true launch control(1 bar stationary@6200rpm) and antilag.As you can see i know something about them.
with 3000 euro more i can make it much more faster in a straight even against a wrc car.(just a turbocharger and different program,rods and pistons)
But don t confuse the easy bhp from a road car with the rally cars....totally different costs.
with the next you say i agree,but a 1,6 lit wrc with 340-380 bhp and 400nm(as you mentioned in your post) will be cheaper,but not faster than current wrc cars.Today wrc have almost 700-800 Nm.There is no way comparison for how fast can be in the exit in a corner instead a 400Nm 1,6 wrc.
this is the difficult for fia.cheaper car may attract more factories,but are they going to atract ''customers'' in ss-stadiums due to be slower?
it is not so easy as you can see.

something else i d like to comment about the ''kit'' they want to add to s2000(turbo-air dynamics etc)
when you add a turbo to a s2000 you are going to have too many problems for reliability.It is not some parts that you have to install just.
some examples.....gear-box....there is no way the current s2000 gear boxes to cope with 40-55 kg torque more.The same for differentials.Another problem is when you have a turbocharged car you have much more needs for cooling(the engine-the engine bay etc)S2000 when they were designed they didn t have that in mind.Don t forget also that s2000 are build in smaller segment class than wrc,so it is not so easy to find room for all these spares as in a bigger focus-c4 etc.Of course you have to install a massive water radiator,you have to find a lot of room to install an intercooler,and when you finished with them maybe you are going to have some problems due to small waterpump impeller which was not designed for 500Nm and 350bhp but for 250 Nm and 270 BHP(Ford focus wrc example...)
these are some examples with some difficulties they have to work 100% if they want to install that turbo kit.If you try to work these problems you need money,and the final solution is not sure that is going to be reliable.The reason is that it wasn t designed for that.
An other problem is the extra weight(heavier exaust manifold due to turbocharger,bigger radiators,intercooler,pipes etc)
You can solve that,but needs money cause lighter materials costs.
All this conversation by the way is on the air,cause we dont know exactly the regulations....are they going to have restrictors? Only that is going to cost so much.....

[JFL]

....And if they decide not to use turbo's at all, this will benefit the biggest team with the biggest money bag! 10hp or 20nm torque cost a lot in development in a non-turbo car.. Best way to go is to give the same turbo to everybody, and a classiefied engine, that is not possible to develop further... Hard to do maybe?

[Mirek]

dimviii: Why should be new WRC faster than today's one? There is enough troubles with too high average speed even today (in Finland, Sweden, Ireland etc.). In 2013 tyres and shock absorbers will be also much better than today...

[dimviii]

Mirek wrc at today is not so spectacular ,it is not attracting sponsors,nobody watch it cause you cant watch it,we have a crisis economic,and fia must find a solution with less money.
If they are slower are they going to attract more? :rolleyes:
if not why to change? just to create a mess with the already factories in wrc,and forced them to spent some more millions in a new project with the same amount of spectators? why? are you sure that they can-afford?
we are not talking about you and me and some other 1million? crazy people about wrc.We are not enough for beeing invest billions from factories or sponsors.Thats the problem in my way of view.

ps sorry for my poor english.

ps 2 it is very easy to control max-top speed for fia.thats not a problem i think

[Mirek]

Dimvii: Slower doesn't mean less atractive. Don't mess these two words ;)

Gr.A was slower, was less atractive? When You watch a TV coverage from today's WRC tarmac rallys, You fall asleep soon because there is absolutely no action in it. The cars are fast but don't look fast. Having expensive and crazy fast cars which are boring to watch is contraproductive. When You watch tarmac rallys from 1994 for example, You can see the difference. The cars were very spectacular even though they were much slower.

And what's making championship atractive is competition at first. Having more competition need's new begining from time to time because after a decade or so unsucesfull manufacturers are away and none new has a chance against those which are for a decade in the bussines.

Cheaper completely mechanical car with 1.6 turbo may be less powerful than current WRC but it may be more atractive. If the average speed in the stage is 120 or 118 km/h is realy not important for public.

Also from marketing point of view. What is using 2.0 turbo good for Ford or PSA? They don't produce such engine for road cars. 1.6 turbo is different case especialy for the future because of emission standards.

[big_sw2000]

]Dimvii: Slower doesn't mean less atractive. Don't mess these two words ;)

Gr.A was slower, was less atractive? When You watch a TV coverage from today's WRC tarmac rallys, You fall asleep soon because there is absolutely no action in it. The cars are fast but don't look fast. Having expensive and crazy fast cars which are boring to watch is contraproductive. When You watch tarmac rallys from 1994 for example, You can see the difference. The cars were very spectacular even though they were much slower.

And what's making championship atractive is competition at first. Having more competition need's new begining from time to time because after a decade or so unsucesfull manufacturers are away and none new has a chance against those which are for a decade in the bussines.

Cheaper completely mechanical car with 1.6 turbo may be less powerful than current WRC but it may be more atractive. If the average speed in the stage is 120 or 118 km/h is realy not important for public.

Also from marketing point of view. What is using 2.0 turbo good for Ford or PSA? They don't produce such engine for road cars. 1.6 turbo is different case especialy for the future because of emission standards.
Well said.

[janvanvurpa]

]Dimvii: Slower doesn't mean less atractive. Don't mess these two words ;)

Gr.A was slower, was less atractive? When You watch a TV coverage from today's WRC tarmac rallys, You fall asleep soon because there is absolutely no action in it. The cars are fast but don't look fast. Having expensive and crazy fast cars which are boring to watch is contraproductive. When You watch tarmac rallys from 1994 for example, You can see the difference. The cars were very spectacular even though they were much slower.

And what's making championship atractive is competition at first. Having more competition need's new begining from time to time because after a decade or so unsucesfull manufacturers are away and none new has a chance against those which are for a decade in the bussines.

Cheaper completely mechanical car with 1.6 turbo may be less powerful than current WRC but it may be more atractive. If the average speed in the stage is 120 or 118 km/h is realy not important for public.

Also from marketing point of view. What is using 2.0 turbo good for Ford or PSA? They don't produce such engine for road cars. 1.6 turbo is different case especialy for the future because of emission standards.

OK Mirek gets a beer from me!

I was hoping somebody would talk about the emotional or sensory experience because both inside the car when I've done stages and outside when I might watch what makes for excitement and interest is that the cars FEEL and LOOK and above all ACT BETTER and DIFFERENT from what we are used to in ordinary life.
Todays car appear nearly on rails. MANY (Sainz, Mäkinen, Kankunnen, Mcrae and on and on) top drivers have said words to the effect of ''The cars nearly drive themselves".
But I want to point out that we you say "Todays cars are much faster than in...." that the figures say otherwise.

If you spend some time at the old Rallybase.nl and do some math you might see the difference in average speed on stages for winner only 3 or 4 km/hr faster than say 94-96

Look, all this discussion and I have to say to me the obvious problem with WRC is the "World Rally Car" Rules which has allowed so much design freedom that the cars are as divorced from reality as the GpB cars were: a few styling details and maybe a windscreen and headlight from some road model so you can call it a "Xzara" or a Fuc*us or whatever but thats it.

GpA with the original requirement for 5000 identical models and originally with series production gearbox housing meant things couldn't be prefect because all roads cars have compromises.
And so drivers had to try things to drive around the basic road cars built in compromises, and it was fun to watch.

Under "World Rally Car" rules cars are now--or since what? 1995, last Toyota in WRC--cars can be build fully optimised---and really all the cars are very nearly the same.
And so they work nearly perfectly if a person has some skill.

Of course they are nearly 100% handbuilt so the cost a LARGE fortune to build and another large fortune to run.

And that means that only a narrow select group of people can find the funds---a skill not at all connected with driving skills------to buy a car or a "seat"

And the result is what we see: Loeb then a step down Solberg, Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo, and then a pile of guys who make us all want to poke screwdrivers in our eyes, then burn the TV.

So whatever the details they decide on, 1,6 unrestricted or whatever, as long as there is a complete divorce from the roadcar base model, the fans will stay away.

[AndyRAC]

OK Mirek gets a beer from me!

I was hoping somebody would talk about the emotional or sensory experience because both inside the car when I've done stages and outside when I might watch what makes for excitement and interest is that the cars FEEL and LOOK and above all ACT BETTER and DIFFERENT from what we are used to in ordinary life.
Todays car appear nearly on rails. MANY (Sainz, Mäkinen, Kankunnen, Mcrae and on and on) top drivers have said words to the effect of ''The cars nearly drive themselves".
But I want to point out that we you say "Todays cars are much faster than in...." that the figures say otherwise.

If you spend some time at the old Rallybase.nl and do some math you might see the difference in average speed on stages for winner only 3 or 4 km/hr faster than say 94-96

Look, all this discussion and I have to say to me the obvious problem with WRC is the "World Rally Car" Rules which has allowed so much design freedom that the cars are as divorced from reality as the GpB cars were: a few styling details and maybe a windscreen and headlight from some road model so you can call it a "Xzara" or a Fuc*us or whatever but thats it.

GpA with the original requirement for 5000 identical models and originally with series production gearbox housing meant things couldn't be prefect because all roads cars have compromises.
And so drivers had to try things to drive around the basic road cars built in compromises, and it was fun to watch.

Under "World Rally Car" rules cars are now--or since what? 1995, last Toyota in WRC--cars can be build fully optimised---and really all the cars are very nearly the same.
And so they work nearly perfectly if a person has some skill.

Of course they are nearly 100% handbuilt so the cost a LARGE fortune to build and another large fortune to run.

And that means that only a narrow select group of people can find the funds---a skill not at all connected with driving skills------to buy a car or a "seat"

And the result is what we see: Loeb then a step down Solberg, Hirvonen, Latvala, Sordo, and then a pile of guys who make us all want to poke screwdrivers in our eyes, then burn the TV.

So whatever the details they decide on, 1,6 unrestricted or whatever, as long as there is a complete divorce from the roadcar base model, the fans will stay away.

Well said that man!!

The quicker people realise that the WRCars are almost the same as the road cars the better. The simpler the better - the the drivers drive - and not all these fancy electronics, etc
I'd actually allow GroupN Sportscars in - i;e 911 GT3, etc

[Mirek]

Agree with N-GT totaly ;)

[wwbroe]

Well said that man!!

The quicker people realise that the WRCars are almost the same as the road cars the better. The simpler the better - the the drivers drive - and not all these fancy electronics, etc
I'd actually allow GroupN Sportscars in - i;e 911 GT3, etc

Good idea, i am in favour of that. :up:

[OldF]

@oldF
Lets go again!
my evo viii has 372 bhp and 492Nm(1,9 bar overboost/1,6 steady) with a program by a friend for free,and a catless 76mm exaust.Also true launch control(1 bar stationary@6200rpm) and antilag.As you can see i know something about them.
with 3000 euro more i can make it much more faster in a straight even against a wrc car.(just a turbocharger and different program,rods and pistons)
But don t confuse the easy bhp from a road car with the rally cars....totally different costs.
with the next you say i agree,but a 1,6 lit wrc with 340-380 bhp and 400nm(as you mentioned in your post) will be cheaper,but not faster than current wrc cars.Today wrc have almost 700-800 Nm.There is no way comparison for how fast can be in the exit in a corner instead a 400Nm 1,6 wrc.
this is the difficult for fia.cheaper car may attract more factories,but are they going to atract ''customers'' in ss-stadiums due to be slower?
it is not so easy as you can see.

something else i d like to comment about the ''kit'' they want to add to s2000(turbo-air dynamics etc)
when you add a turbo to a s2000 you are going to have too many problems for reliability.It is not some parts that you have to install just.
some examples.....gear-box....there is no way the current s2000 gear boxes to cope with 40-55 kg torque more.The same for differentials.Another problem is when you have a turbocharged car you have much more needs for cooling(the engine-the engine bay etc)S2000 when they were designed they didn t have that in mind.Don t forget also that s2000 are build in smaller segment class than wrc,so it is not so easy to find room for all these spares as in a bigger focus-c4 etc.Of course you have to install a massive water radiator,you have to find a lot of room to install an intercooler,and when you finished with them maybe you are going to have some problems due to small waterpump impeller which was not designed for 500Nm and 350bhp but for 250 Nm and 270 BHP(Ford focus wrc example...)
these are some examples with some difficulties they have to work 100% if they want to install that turbo kit.If you try to work these problems you need money,and the final solution is not sure that is going to be reliable.The reason is that it wasn t designed for that.
An other problem is the extra weight(heavier exaust manifold due to turbocharger,bigger radiators,intercooler,pipes etc)
You can solve that,but needs money cause lighter materials costs.
All this conversation by the way is on the air,cause we dont know exactly the regulations....are they going to have restrictors? Only that is going to cost so much.....

Yes, of course with a 700 – 800 Nm torque the exit from a hairpin would be faster than with 400 Nm but that was not my point. On avarge I would say that it’s not so big difference if a car has 400 or 800 Nm of torque. My point is with less torque they’ve to use more revs to get the same power and that’s IMO one of the “problems” with WRC cars nowadays. As Mirek said, they’re fast but doesn’t look and sound fast and that’s what makes them sound and look and sound so boring. The restrictor – as it’s said – restricts the airflow to the engine so they’ve (the engineers) developed engines, which have almost full power from 3000 rpm and up. So, there’s no point for the drivers to use higher revs if they’ve can get the same power with lower revs = > BORING. Without a restrictor and instead a restricted boost, the cars would for sure sound better.

[dimviii]

agree OldF,but the costs for an unrestricted 1,6 lit is it going to be lower?
are they more fatories come to wrc?
thats the problems of today wrc.
not enough factories,too expensive for them,and finally no spectators=> no sponsors=> no tv interesting=> todays wrc.

@Mirek
even i was keep watching grA days the wrc,but in no way a lancia8v integrale was near a lancia ds4 or a s1 quattro in terms of spectacular.
i was lucky to see these monsters in our Acropolis and the difference was haotic,specially the first 2-3 years.
do you remember the difference in terms of how many spectators were in grB days instead of grA?

the problem is not the 30 years rally fans they have petrol in their blood.
they are not enough for going the sport forward.

[Mirek]

dimvii: Gr.B era is not very good example. Yes, it was totaly crazy and therefore exstatic but also proved that this was no way further.

[OldF]

agree OldF,but the costs for an unrestricted 1,6 lit is it going to be lower?
are they more fatories come to wrc?
thats the problems of today wrc.
not enough factories,too expensive for them,and finally no spectators=> no sponsors=> no tv interesting=> todays wrc.


Thaht’s the question? How to get more manufactures interested in WRC. IMO one way is to make it more easily for new manufacturers to join the series -> make the technical regulations so as the newcomers can achieve results more easily than now. Nowadays the cars are so fine-tuned as allowed by the regulations that it would take several years for a newcomer to get at the same level. And that’s key question IMO.

[Sulland]

So what is to prefer:

WRC as today, with 2-4 manufacurers
or
S2000 with 8-10 manufacurers

For me the answer is easy, since the speed and technology is coming second to the tight fighting for victory btw the worlds best drivers.

If that fight happens 30 km/h slower, in a less sophisticated car that a privateer team can serve - that is perfect for me !

I like to see that the divers have to struggle to get the car to go fast, not just floor the right pedal !

[MJW]

I still hope that FIA introduce penalties to the WRC cars in 2010 to discourage their use. I know both Citroen and Ford have competitive WR cars but this change to S2000 to encourage new teams and more drivers cant be delayed. Most in motorsport will ensure their cars are the ultimate as everyone wants to win, the situation with allowing WR cars in the 2010 championship is precisely what will drive manufacturers to test and develop the cars out of the competitive eye in 2010 and start 2011 with very well developed and equally expensive S200 cars. Please FIA / ISC or whoever give the S2000 cars (manufacturers) a chance in 2010.

[OldF]

So what is to prefer:

WRC as today, with 2-4 manufacurers
or
S2000 with 8-10 manufacurers

For me the answer is easy, since the speed and technology is coming second to the tight fighting for victory btw the worlds best drivers.

If that fight happens 30 km/h slower, in a less sophisticated car that a privateer team can serve - that is perfect for me !

I like to see that the divers have to struggle to get the car to go fast, not just floor the right pedal !

If I had to choose from those two it would be the S2000.

[OldF]

agree OldF,but the costs for an unrestricted 1,6 lit is it going to be lower?

I think it’s possible. The engine is the most expensive part of a WRC car but there are several other components like the gearbox (for example the Subaru’s gearbox costs 100.000 €) and other things that make the WRC car expensive. The WRC teams are putting a lot of effort on making the engine lighter and instead put some ballasts to the rear (in front of the rear axle). Lot of parts are designed and manufactured in-house and every team making this increase the costs.

This all can be made less expensive by changing the way things are done. For example in the case of a S2000, there is a maximum price for the parts. If the teams use more common suppliers, who design and manufacturers the parts, the costs will go down. If I remember right there are three suppliers (Sadev, X-Trac and Ricardo) for S2000 gearboxes and there is max price for the gearbox. Continuing in this direction for other common parts as dampers, turbos etc. I believe the costs will drop essentially without loosing a lot of the performance. For example if a team / manufacturer develop their own dampers they would be obligated to sell the dampers to anyone else to a predetermined max price. FIA could maintain a list of “FIA approved” suppliers and parts that would be available for everyone. To become a “FIA approved” supplier the manufacturer of a part has to homologate and sell the part for a predetermined max price. There could also be a min weight for the engine (as is the case today for the S2000 gearbox and rear differential) or front / rear weight distribution (front / rear = 55% / 45%) that prevents teams / manufacturers putting a lot of effort taking off few grams here and there to make the engine lighter.

[tmx]

Good idea, as long as its not going to be like the FIA approved tires, where the highest bidders gets to the be the sole supplier.

[OldF]

Good idea, as long as its not going to be like the FIA approved tires, where the highest bidders gets to the be the sole supplier.

That was not quite what I had in my mind. What I had in mind was that there could be several suppliers for gearboxes, turbos, dampers etc. as long as they are ready to sell them at a predetermined price.

[Motorsportfun]

I know that the WRC needs a lot of improvements on many sides: regulations, technical, sporting and media aspects. BUT.

But, in the last couple of days we've seen the Citroen Road Show in Buenos Aires, Argentina. More than 50.000 people itz a very good result for the promotion and an improvement of the "image" of the series and the teams. Itz much more spectacular!

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it was much, much better than the boring Superspecials in the stadiums. Lots of people, donuts and a lot of pics taken by the fans (=sponsors' happyness).

Stop to the Superspecials, go ahead with the Road Shows, better organised and less expensive (4 or 5 times cheaper than the green circuits...)!

A2FpIypzonI

CCUKrS8vVLs

[Jake Stephens]

I was at Rally Ireland, I spent 4 hours waiting to meet Loeb outside the Citroen service area before the final Friday stages were cancelled, he pulled up and walked into the Hospitality area without meeting the fans. Then they have this "Road Show" bull over in Argentina meeting fans? When people see this happening, it doesnt help the WRC's popularity.
I know that the WRC needs a lot of improvements on many sides: regulations, technical, sporting and media aspects. BUT.

But, in the last couple of days we've seen the Citroen Road Show in Buenos Aires, Argentina. More than 50.000 people itz a very good result for the promotion and an improvement of the "image" of the series and the teams. Itz much more spectacular!

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it was much, much better than the boring Superspecials in the stadiums. Lots of people, donuts and a lot of pics taken by the fans (=sponsors' happyness).

Stop to the Superspecials, go ahead with the Road Shows, better organised and less expensive (4 or 5 times cheaper than the green circuits...)!

A2FpIypzonI

CCUKrS8vVLs

[Motorsportfun]

I was at Rally Ireland, I spent 4 hours waiting to meet Loeb outside the Citroen service area before the final Friday stages were cancelled, he pulled up and walked into the Hospitality area without meeting the fans. Then they have this "Road Show" bull over in Argentina meeting fans? When people see this happening, it doesnt help the WRC's popularity.

I'm not talking about the specific case. In "normal" conditions, also Loeb meets the fans at the service park. Last year, in Sardinia, was minutes and minutes near the barriers giving autographs on every possible merchandise product! The same thing I can say for Latvala and Petter Solberg and some JWRC drivers ;)

The drivers have also briefings and meeting with the team for the strategies, set-up issues, etc.

Anyway, pity for your experience in Sligo. Itz not the best thing to see for a fan. I can understand!

[BDunnell]

I'm not talking about the specific case. In "normal" conditions, also Loeb meets the fans at the service park. Last year, in Sardinia, was minutes and minutes near the barriers giving autographs on every possible merchandise product! The same thing I can say for Latvala and Petter Solberg and some JWRC drivers ;)

I think that it's a great shame this sort of thing is considered part of the WRC 'experience'. Good on them for doing it when they do it, though.

[Ghostwalker]

honestly 10 manufacturers in the WRC 2010 just because of the new S2000 rule? i doubt that. There are hardly 10 manufacturers in the world of decent size to pull of a WRChamp. program.

Most of the larger ones are already occupied in other series,
Mercedes in F1 and DTM, Audi in Le Mans series and DTM, Seat in WTCC, Toyota and Renault in F1, BMW in F1 and WTCC, Peugeot is in the Le Mans series. Opel and Volvo are more or less bankrupt.

I think skoda+Suzuki+ maybe one more japanese manufactors and then who else?

WRC will still be a super exspensive thing, with logistics, team staff, engineers..

I think the planner of the WRC calender should take a look at how they can save money. Like poalnd and Finalnd who geographically is quite close imo it would be allot smarter to have Finland the weekend after since they wouldnt have to travel all the way back to France and England

personally i like the current cars just because they are high tech and fast, knowing that these cars are something extra, you know something exotic. So i dont like the simple slower and probably much more common S2000 cars.

I understand that they want to cut costs but what happens when the S2k cars is becoming too expensive? WHat will they go for then S1,6k?l? and when they are too expensive? Moped Cars (http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mopedbil)?

And why would the S2k cars automatically mean closer racing?

Why bother with watching the wrc when i can see the same cars in the local rallies?

[mm1]

My opinion is that world rally championship is for the best drivers, not the most advanced cars (that would be engineer world championship). And if you ask why should you be spectating WRC when you can see the same cars in your local championship, because local championships will promote their best drivers to WRC and if there are more cars, there`s a bigger possibility to get the best drivers from all around in same level cars, which would make a fantastic competition.

[Jake Stephens]

I'm not talking about the specific case. In "normal" conditions, also Loeb meets the fans at the service park. Last year, in Sardinia, was minutes and minutes near the barriers giving autographs on every possible merchandise product! The same thing I can say for Latvala and Petter Solberg and some JWRC drivers ;)

The drivers have also briefings and meeting with the team for the strategies, set-up issues, etc.

Anyway, pity for your experience in Sligo. Itz not the best thing to see for a fan. I can understand!
You summed it up in one word MotorsportFun, a pity. Its just really disappointing that none of the guys in service park actually spent 2 mins of there time and meet the fans. It wouldnt happen in Wales or Finland for example.

[Nikey]

honestly 10 manufacturers in the WRC 2010 just because of the new S2000 rule? i doubt that. There are hardly 10 manufacturers in the world of decent size to pull of a WRChamp. program.
There doesn't need to be 10 manufacturers. Just more than now. Now there is 2. IRC proves that there in interest in making these cars. I would think that possibility of winning world championship just increases this interest. And even if there is only a few different manufacturers, there can be private teams. Now you can't rent a competitive car unless you're a millionare. Next year that may be possible for a reasonable price.


And why would the S2k cars automatically mean closer racing?

Why bother with watching the wrc when i can see the same cars in the local rallies?
Watch the best drivers in the world. Now there are dosens of great drivers rallying in national series because they can't afford a drive in wrc. This needs to be altered. And when there are more even cars, there are more competitive drivers which means closer racing.

[DonJippo]

Now you can't rent a competitive car unless you're a millionare. Next year that may be possible for a reasonable price.

That's most probably true but anyone here knows for sure how much cheaper it would be? I mean you still need to have service crew and other facilities as today so how much cheaper it will be with new car compared today?

[OldF]

personally i like the current cars just because they are high tech and fast, knowing that these cars are something extra, you know something exotic.

I also think that WRC cars should be something special or exotic you don’t see every day but I must say that I don’t like so much the current WRC cars. And that’s because the boring sound the most of them have. In this sense S2000 is better. IMO a rally car should be driven with high revs and have an exotic look with a big rear wing and wide fenders but at lower costs than the current WRC cars.

Maybe this is the future formula of WRC? http://www.vauhdinmaailma.fi/vm-klubi/galleria/ruohonleikkureiden-jaarata-kisa

[OldF]

Well, does it going to be a S2000T after all.

The S2000 cars in WRC will have a kit. Mahonen told that the kit would among other things include a turbo.

http://translate.google.com/translate?js=n&prev=_t&hl=fi&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mtv3.fi%2Furheilu%2Fralli%2Fuut iset.shtml%2Farkistot%2Fralli%2F2009%2F05%2F886620&sl=fi&tl=en&history_state0=

Jarmo Mahonen is a member of the World Rally Commission and represents FIA in ICS’s board.

We are back where we started.

[J.Lindstroem]

Is this a Joke?

FIA have to decide soon. S2000T or S2000!

[AndyRAC]

Is this a Joke?

FIA have to decide soon. S2000T or S2000!

Why am I not surprised. An absolute joke. No wonder the sport is going nowhere. S2000, S2000+, S2000, S1600T and now S2000+
And they can't decide the calendar - I really do despair. :mad:

[MJW]

On reading internet news sites Citroen's Olivier Quensel stated that they (Citroen) would stay in the WRC only if Ford stay. There is an article in today's Motorsport News in UK where Malcolm Wilson said they (MSport) had had recent meetings with Ford in Germany, and MW was 'hopeful' that Ford would stay in WRC after 2009, but MW did caution that due to the global financial position for companies there were no guarantees, and the WRC needed to prove its value............
It will be interesting which way this new Fiesta, developed by MSport will go, will it be S2000 and that leads to MSport selling cars for IRC and the global market, or will it have a different engine, and stick with WRC. Kinda makes you think when someone like MW says phrases like global finacial situation and that WRC needs to increase its value for money. MSport exists to build and run rally cars, has he seen that he can sell a lot more cheaper S2000 Fiesta's for IRC, regional and domestic championships?

[Brother John]

And the F.I.A. keep on killing WRC with just 2 factory teams which do not want to drive with S2000. Loeb the biggest ever? Yes with no competition. :confused:
Let Citroën and Ford leave WRC if they want build none S2000 and makes of IRC the WRC. We can give then private drivers the chance to win in WRC.
IRC can be a great ERC!