Rautenbach and the EU and Citroen

[MJW]

Apparently Muller Conrad Rautenbach aka Billy Rautenbach and father of Citroen Junior Team driver Conrad is one of the latest businessmen to be put on the EU blacklist of companies for their involvement in the Zimbabwe government. Does this mean that Citroen (recently supported by the French Government) are precluded from dealing with the Rautenbach's?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/european-union-zimbabwe-sanctions

Maybe I am a million miles off the mark with the connection but Autosport in uk today said that Citroen may relent and find a C4 available for Petter possibly as soon as Portugal. This after numerous comments about no C4 being sold to customers, and they have no spare C4's as all are taken by the Red Bull and Junior Team drivers. Also heared that Atko is getting closer to an IRC drive not more C4 drives.

[swordsman]

Apparently Muller Conrad Rautenbach aka Billy Rautenbach and father of Citroen Junior Team driver Conrad is one of the latest businessmen to be put on the EU blacklist of companies for their involvement in the Zimbabwe government. Does this mean that Citroen (recently supported by the French Government) are precluded from dealing with the Rautenbach's?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/27/european-union-zimbabwe-sanctions

Maybe I am a million miles off the mark with the connection but Autosport in uk today said that Citroen may relent and find a C4 available for Petter possibly as soon as Portugal. This after numerous comments about no C4 being sold to customers, and they have no spare C4's as all are taken by the Red Bull and Junior Team drivers. Also heared that Atko is getting closer to an IRC drive not more C4 drives.

I'm currently reading a lot about this and planning to make a blog post on it. All I can say is that at least to me, Billy Rautenbach's business seems to be very, very doubtful - to say the least. He has been involved in really crazy stuff as it seems.

[Daniel]

I'm currently reading a lot about this and planning to make a blog post on it. All I can say is that at least to me, Billy Rautenbach's business seems to be very, very doubtful - to say the least. He has been involved in really crazy stuff as it seems.
Another breaking story eh? :)

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128218

MJW sadly it seems people on this forum generally don't give a **** about whole countries being used if it means they get so see another car on the stages :rolleyes:

[MJW]

Daniel, I followed the earlier thread but picked up this latest story in the news websites, Daily Telegraph also ran the story and the way I read it the blacklisting of Rautenbach (senior) by the EU is a new twist (18th feb 09 thing)

[Daniel]

Daniel, I followed the earlier thread but picked up this latest story in the news websites, Daily Telegraph also ran the story and the way I read it the blacklisting of Rautenbach (senior) by the EU is a new twist (18th feb 09 thing)
Wasn't referring to you MJW ;) Was just referring to our friend who is always breaking the latest news :laugh:

Sadly you will be accused of being jealous, ignorant and so many other things for caring more about the exploitation of real people in Africa rather than whether or not there is 1 less C4 in the WRC or not. I don't get that personally, why in the current climate of WRC mediocrity is it important whether or not there is 1 less car?

[swordsman]

Wasn't referring to you MJW ;) Was just referring to our friend who is always breaking the latest news :laugh:

Sadly you will be accused of being jealous, ignorant and so many other things for caring more about the exploitation of real people in Africa rather than whether or not there is 1 less C4 in the WRC or not. I don't get that personally, why in the current climate of WRC mediocrity is it important whether or not there is 1 less car?

Daniel, no, I had not seen the previous thread. It was a while ago during a period when I was not so active on the forum, so thanks for telling me!

Regarding breaking news I don't consider this a matter of breaking news, it's more a very important perspective. The knowledge that Conrad's money may (probably does) come from businesses ruining the people of africa and supporting undemocratic forces makes me wanna throw up (you seem to think quite the same - doesn't you?), and if I or anyone else can bring that into at least some light I welcome it. I want to do it, that's it - wether you like it or not :)

Also, Citroen accepting those money makes me wanna throw up even more, even if I know that's just how big parts of the car industry (and other business as well) works...

[Daniel]

Daniel, no, I had not seen the previous thread. It was a while ago during a period when I was not so active on the forum, so thanks for telling me!

Regarding breaking news I don't consider this a matter of breaking news, it's more a very important perspective. The knowledge that Conrad's money may (probably does) come from businesses ruining the people of africa and supporting undemocratic forces makes me wanna throw up (you seem to think quite the same - doesn't you?), and if I or anyone else can bring that into at least some light I welcome it. I want to do it, that's it - wether you like it or not :)

Also, Citroen accepting those money makes me wanna throw up even more, even if I know that's just how big parts of the car industry (and other business as well) works...
I was only joking :)

I agree with you actually respect you for writing such a blog post :up: Just don't be surprised that if someone sees it and it gets back to the ISC you have trouble getting media accreditation for any WRC events in the future. The ISC don't like anyone trash talking their series and will do anything within their power to screw you over :)

I very much agree with your sentiment regarding this dirty money.

Might I suggest you make a conscious effort to not offer Conrad any coverage on your site as a show of your displeasure at his source of funding?

[swordsman]

I was only joking :)

I agree with you actually respect you for writing such a blog post :up: Just don't be surprised that if someone sees it and it gets back to the ISC you have trouble getting media accreditation for any WRC events in the future. The ISC don't like anyone trash talking their series and will do anything within their power to screw you over :)

I very much agree with your sentiment regarding this dirty money.

Might I suggest you make a conscious effort to not offer Conrad any coverage on your site as a show of your displeasure at his source of funding?

Good :) Well, if that's the reason why ISC wouldn't give me an accreditation - I'll be more than happy without one! :) Also, regarding excluding Conrad on my site I'll certainly not publish any fat and credding features or news about him or any videos/images giving his sponsors extra exposure - but I might still write his name in rally reviews etc.

But if his drive really is paid by this dirty money, the best solution would of course be if we really got rid of seeing him in the championship really soon.

EDIT: BTW... Blog post draft is written - I'll publish it tomorrow!

[Rally_Rocks]

I would just like to advise a word of caution in this debate.

Whilst Internet research does indeed suggest that the business practices of Billy Rautenbach are somewhat dubious to say the least, where is the definitive answers to where Conrads funding comes from?

There is an implied assumption in this thread that Conrad's funding comes directly from his father. While this may well be true I'd like to see proof before I support wild and somewhat hysterical calls for censorship of his involvement in the championship.

My limited research seems to show that he is backed by a consortium of African businesses.

[swordsman]

I would just like to advise a word of caution in this debate.

Whilst Internet research does indeed suggest that the business practices of Billy Rautenbach are somewhat dubious to say the least, where is the definitive answers to where Conrads funding comes from?

There is an implied assumption in this thread that Conrad's funding comes directly from his father. While this may well be true I'd like to see proof before I support wild and somewhat hysterical calls for censorship of his involvement in the championship.

My limited research seems to show that he is backed by a consortium of African businesses.

That's true, you should be cautious. But also, my opinion is that those kind of stories are important to investigate, and if Citroen is just a little bit interested in human rights, they require Conrad for a major go-through on where the money comes from and do some investigations themselves. However, I certainly don't expect them to... :S

No matter what, my blogpost is done and that's what I think. :-)

[Bazza2541]

That's true, you should be cautious. But also, my opinion is that those kind of stories are important to investigate, and if Citroen is just a little bit interested in human rights, they require Conrad for a major go-through on where the money comes from and do some investigations themselves. However, I certainly don't expect them to... :S

No matter what, my blogpost is done and that's what I think. :-)

This is a RALLY forum, bring your tree-hugging somewhere else.
And no harm to you, but IMHO your blog is mediocre at best and your constant touting of it is getting tedious.

[Mirek]

Bazza2541: I think that these theme is too serious to put heads into sand and pretend nothing happens...

[Bazza2541]

]Bazza2541: I think that these theme is too serious to put heads into sand and pretend nothing happens...I don't care how serious it is, this is not the place for it.

[Daniel]

]Bazza2541: I think that these theme is too serious to put heads into sand and pretend nothing happens...
Agreed :up:

I'm always happy to make fun of Swordsmans blog but I have to say I respect him for what he has said in this thread :up:

Where does one draw the line? What if a driver was funded by the money from people traffickers who are involved in prostitution or child paedophilia? I take it this would be OK because it's only tree huggers who don't like that sort of thing?

I find it funny that someone would suggest that only tree huggers care about these sort of things when in this day and age ethical business is extremely popular. You only need to look at the success of the Co-Op (http://www.co-operative.coop/) and Fairtrade to see that people do care where money comes from and where it goes to as well as the well being of the people at the bottom of the pyramid.

[Bazza2541]

And if the man is innocent?
Then this Rally forum is quilty of tarnishing his reputation on nothing but rumours.

[Daniel]

I don't care how serious it is, this is not the place for it.
And so it was that Lord Bazza had spoke so it was that people on the rally forum could not discuss where Conrad's money comes from. 'O Lord, bless this Thy WRC that, with it, Thou mayest opress poor black people who mean nothing to me and rally a car in the WRC with funds raised from opressing said worthless people in Thy mercy.' And the Bazza did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu....

:dozey:

[swordsman]

Hahaha, there is nothing better than this stupid people bashing you here bashing you there, and I've never seen a funnier one than you Bazza2541. It's a new record, so be happy!

But to answer you, I've never said that someone was guilty, but I've said that it seems quite obvious that Conrad's father's businesses are doubious - to say the least. That doesn't at all mean those are the money Conrad uses to drive WRC for - but it's certainly possible. Therefore I think Citroen should do an investigation about it to make sure what the money they are recieving from Rautenbach come from. That's not so strange, is it? If a guy goes into a bank with 3 million euros I'm quite sure, at least in Sweden, they would ask him where the money came from.

Your treehugging talk is just rediculous, shows your lack of empathy and probably your willing to compromise on basic humanity if it fits your needs and doesn't affect anyone close to yourself. If you don't want to discuss, find another forum. Or even better - a closed room without windows and doors! ;)

[Daniel]

Your treehugging talk is just rediculous, shows your lack of empathy and probably your willing to compromise on basic humanity if it fits your needs and doesn't affect anyone close to yourself. If you don't want to discuss, find another forum. Or even better - a closed room without windows and doors! ;)

OWNED :)

[swordsman]

And so it was that Lord Bazza had spoke so it was that people on the rally forum could not discuss where Conrad's money comes from. 'O Lord, bless this Thy WRC that, with it, Thou mayest opress poor black people who mean nothing to me and rally a car in the WRC with funds raised from opressing said worthless people in Thy mercy.' And the Bazza did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu....

:dozey:

LOL. Big LOL.

[Bazza2541]

If you don't want to discuss, find another forum. Or even better - a closed room without windows and doors! ;)

Whereas that would prevent me from having to listen to your inane babbling, I find the ignore feature much more effective.

[MJW]

As the one who started this thread all I wanted to know was whether or not it had implications for Citroen providing Conrad a C4? As Citroen are a French company, and I assume must abide by EU sanctions rules.

[N.O.T]

So you own a grocery store and a Drug lord comes and wants to buy this huge cucumber for 1 million Euros (the cucumber is really huge).... would you sell it to him ? should the EU procecute you if you get the deal done ?

I see nothing wrong with citroen and i see a million things wrong about mr rautenbach.....but again i am a bad person, so i might be wrong.

[bowler]

I agree with NOT.

It is not for us to try and track where the money supply comes from. You can be sure that payments to Citroen come from a nice clean and safe place.

The only surprise to me is that some people have just woken up to the background of this competitor, but do we judge the son for the sins of the father?

This is the stuff movies are made of, and the protagonists in it are genuinely tough and clever people. The EC will probably not worry them too much.

[Gard]

So you own a grocery store and a Drug lord comes and wants to buy this huge cucumber for 1 million Euros (the cucumber is really huge).... would you sell it to him ? should the EU procecute you if you get the deal done ?

I see nothing wrong with citroen and i see a million things wrong about mr rautenbach.....but again i am a bad person, so i might be wrong.

As Rautenbach is sactioned, it is illegal to do business with him, so I don't believe your argument is valid

[Kaps]

Couldn't agree more, Bazza.

This is not the place for talking politics! Any politics.Period!

[J.Lindstroem]

This is a RALLY forum, bring your tree-hugging somewhere else.
And no harm to you, but IMHO your blog is mediocre at best and your constant touting of it is getting tedious.

post fail

[Daniel]

Couldn't agree more, Bazza.

This is not the place for talking politics! Any politics.Period!

And so it was that Lord Kaps had spoke so it was that people on the rally forum could not discuss where Conrad's money comes from. 'O Lord, bless this Thy WRC that, with it, Thou mayest opress poor black people who mean nothing to me and rally a car in the WRC with funds raised from opressing said worthless people in Thy mercy.' And the Kaps did grin, and the people did feast upon the lambs and sloths and carp and anchovies and orangutans and breakfast cereals and fruit bats and large chu....

[Gard]

Couldn't agree more, Bazza.

This is not the place for talking politics! Any politics.Period!

Sure it is and it doesn't have to much to do with politics either. Go elsewhere to stick your head in the sand.

[BDunnell]

This is a RALLY forum, bring your tree-hugging somewhere else.

So being concerned about the human rights situation in Zimbabwe and believing that those alleged to have abused it ought to be investigated is 'tree-hugging', is it? With respect, your opinion is both depressing and simply wrong. This is an important matter and needs looking at. And given that there might be a connection with the WRC, it is a legitimate topic for discussion here. To those who don't think that politics has a place in a rally forum, do you think that it should somehow exist in a vacuum? I hope not. Would a rally in Zimbabwe be appropriate? No, because of politics. Like it or not, sport and politics cannot be separated.

As for the actual topic, I suspect it would be very difficult for any action to be taken by the FIA, and that the only ways it could result in Conrad not being in the WRC would be if Citroen decided not to accept his money any more (and it would be hard for them to prove if there was any connection with his father) or if Conrad's fatherly cash dried up.

[Kaps]

For cryin' out loud, how do you think a white man came to his wealth in Zimbabwe!?

It didn't start with Mr. Rautenbach's deal with Citroen in 2009!

So please spare me all of this politically correct s***e at this particular moment in time!

[Daniel]

For cryin' out loud, how do you think a white man came to his wealth in Zimbabwe!?

It didn't start with Mr. Rautenbach's deal with Citroen in 2009!

So please spare me all of this politically correct s***e at this particular moment in time!
No one was saying that Rautenbachs rallying career was the root of the problems in Zimbabwe......

[Kaps]

But the problems in Zimbabwe are something I do not wish to discuss right here!

[Daniel]

But the problems in Zimbabwe are something I do not wish to discuss right here!
This forum is not about what YOU want to discuss. If someone else wants to discuss a possible connection between Conrads funding and the problems in Zimbabwe then that's their choice and you don't need to read it.

[Camelopard]

This forum is not about what YOU want to discuss. If someone else wants to discuss a possible connection between Conrads funding and the problems in Zimbabwe then that's their choice and you don't need to read it.

Danie, I heard unofficially that it is allegedly rautencrash's mother who has very very close ties to mugabe and zanu-pf, this came from a source who I believe I can trust. I've been trying to follow this up.

As for sport and politics, I believe that sporting bans placed on South Africa had a direct link to the collapse of the apartheid regime.

People can argue all they like about how much worse off Southern Africa is today, but it all comes back to democracy having a base in 'one person, one vote' regardless of race, colour or creed, which I guess to a lot of people is a novel concept,

sorry for getting so off topic!!!!! :)

P.S. are you working nightshift, or don't you sleep?

[Daniel]

Danie, I heard unofficially that it is allegedly rautencrash's mother who has very very close ties to mugabe and zanu-pf, this came from a source who I believe I can trust. I've been trying to follow this up.

As for sport and politics, I believe that sporting bans placed on South Africa had a direct link to the collapse of the apartheid regime.

People can argue all they like about how much worse off Southern Africa is today, but it all comes back to democracy having a base in 'one person, one vote' regardless of race, colour or creed, which I guess to a lot of people is a novel concept,

sorry for getting so off topic!!!!! :)

P.S. are you working nightshift, or don't you sleep?

I'm a little bit of of kilter with my sleep patterns at the moment :mark:

I personally don't think the sporting bans really hurt SA all that much to be honest.

I'd argue that SA is worse off now as a whole but then again you can't put a price on the human rights of millions of people now can you? A more prosperous country where black people are 2nd class citizens or a country that is a little less stable where everyone is equal. I'd still have to choose the first option tbh.

[BDunnell]

For cryin' out loud, how do you think a white man came to his wealth in Zimbabwe!?

It didn't start with Mr. Rautenbach's deal with Citroen in 2009!

So please spare me all of this politically correct s***e at this particular moment in time!

What is 'politically correct' about being concerned about the human rights situation in Zimbabwe, for heaven's sake?

[Daniel]

What is 'politically correct' about being concerned about the human rights situation in Zimbabwe, for heaven's sake?

If Kaps were from the UK I'd say he'd been reading too many of the papers here :mark:

[BDunnell]

But the problems in Zimbabwe are something I do not wish to discuss right here!

Sport and politics do mix - unavoidably so. If you can't understand that and understand why it's a relevant topic, well, you really ought to think harder. As I said, rallying, nor any global sport, can't exist in a vacuum into which politics never enters.

[bt52b]

To avoid conflict, perhaps the scope of the thread should be the scope of the sanctions and the implications.