Capital Punishment.....For or Against

[steve_spackman]

what purpose does Capital punishment serve?

quote

"An execution is not simply death. It is just as different from the privation of life as a concentration camp is from prison. It adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization which is itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life."
Albert Camus---"Reflections on the Guillotine, Resistance, Rebellion & Death" (1966).

[driveace]

Sticky wicket here! The public vote FOR and the polititions vote NO !

[BDunnell]

Very definitely against, no matter what the circumstances.

[schmenke]

Very definately for, under very specific circumstances.

[Tazio]

what purpose does Capital punishment serve?

quote

"An execution is not simply death. It is just as different from the privation of life as a concentration camp is from prison. It adds to death a rule, a public premeditation known to the future victim, an organization which is itself a source of moral sufferings more terrible than death. Capital punishment is the most premeditated of murders, to which no criminal's deed, however calculated can be compared. For there to be an equivalency, the death penalty would have to punish a criminal who had warned his victim of the date at which he would inflict a horrible death on him and who, from that moment onward, had confined him at his mercy for months. Such a monster is not encountered in private life."
Albert Camus---"Reflections on the Guillotine, Resistance, Rebellion & Death" (1966).
Your quoting an "Existentialist" A philosophy that is opposed to “Rationalism” and “Empiricism,”

BTW I'm against it! ;)

[ioan]

That's a difficult one.
I can imagine a few circumstances where I would be for it, but for 99% I'm against it, but only if the other option is jail + crushing stones for the of his/her life.

[steve_spackman]

I think that the death penalty is flawed due to the fact that the death penalty delivers a 'double punishment'; that of the execution and the preceding wait, and this is a mismatch to the crime.

Also it's argued that retribution is used in a unique way in the case of the death penalty. Crimes other than murder do not receive a punishment that mimics the crime - for example rapists are not punished by sexual assault, and people guilty of assault are not ceremonially beaten up.

[rah]

Very definitely against, no matter what the circumstances.

Same for me.

[Valve Bounce]

Very definitely against, no matter what the circumstances.

In view of the cases where innocents, found guilty after dodgy investigations, have been executed, I am definitely against the death penalty.

In any case, if they are guilty, I reckon they suffer more from a life sentence in jail.

The only exception is in China, where the STATE finds it economical to execute, because they then charge the family for the bullet. In these times of economical hardship, the Communist regime there makes a compelling argument for Capital Punishment. Whether the guy is eventually proven innocent is never the case, because nobody dares to argue the case.

[Easy Drifter]

For in cases of premeditated murder where there is no question of possible innocence.
Also for in the case of anyone on these forums who has the terminity to disagree with me! :vader: :eek: :D

[Cooper_S]

Very definitely against, no matter what the circumstances.

Agree... :)

[Rollo]

The only exception is in China, where the STATE finds it economical to execute,

What happens in the case where the penalty doesn't exist? If someone is kept in prison for a life sentence, then the infrastructure that exists necessary to keep that person in prison, is paid for by the taxpayer for the term of that person's life. From an economic standpoint, a $100 bullet is far cheaper than say the $1.5m required to keep someone incarcerated for 30 years.

[Valve Bounce]

What happens in the case where the penalty doesn't exist? If someone is kept in prison for a life sentence, then the infrastructure that exists necessary to keep that person in prison, is paid for by the taxpayer for the term of that person's life. From an economic standpoint, a $100 bullet is far cheaper than say the $1.5m required to keep someone incarcerated for 30 years.

You don't get it: the STATE does not pay for the bullet - they send the bill to the executed guy's family. I don't think they would be in any position to dispute payment for the bullet either. :(

I am not aware that anyone is kept in jail for life in China - not unless they make the guy's life a rather short one. My mind boggles at the idea that China would cough up 1.5 million quid to keep some poor bugger in jail for life.

Oh yeah!! if the penalty doesn't exist - I am sure the Chinese would think something up pretty quickly - like around 30 seconds max!! :eek:

[Rollo]

You don't get it: the STATE does not pay for the bullet.
I exactly get it. In China, the state doesn't pay for the bullet. Big loss.



I am not aware that anyone is kept in jail for life in China - not unless they make the guy's life a rather short one. My mind boggles at the idea that China would cough up 1.5 million quid to keep some poor bugger in jail for life.


Meanwhile in a place like Australia, it costs us on average $50,000 per year to keep someone in gaol. Does your mind boggle at that? Money that could be spent elsewhere like hospitals keeping worthwhile people alive is being thrown over the walls at Barwon to keep those people there.

Would the Federal Parliament of Australia be able to charge the family of an inmate for their stay at Her Maj's pleasure? No. Instead it's muggins who oh so charitably pays that bill.

[Valve Bounce]

Meanwhile in a place like Australia, it costs us on average $50,000 per year to keep someone in gaol. Does your mind boggle at that? Money that could be spent elsewhere like hospitals keeping worthwhile people alive is being thrown over the walls at Barwon to keep those people there.

Would the Federal Parliament of Australia be able to charge the family of an inmate for their stay at Her Maj's pleasure? No. Instead it's muggins who oh so charitably pays that bill.

OK, I'll bite! What would you suggest?

[Rollo]

The price of a bullet.

[Valve Bounce]

The price of a bullet.

I don't think that prisoners can be shot here - the Greenies wouldn't take to that kindly. There's still a lot of controversy over the last guy that was executed here (Ryan) in the days of Henry Bolte.

Secondly, the $950 that you refer to in your sig has been reduced to $900. Sorry about that.

[Ranger]

Meanwhile in a place like Australia, it costs us on average $50,000 per year to keep someone in gaol. Does your mind boggle at that? Money that could be spent elsewhere like hospitals keeping worthwhile people alive is being thrown over the walls at Barwon to keep those people there.

Would the Federal Parliament of Australia be able to charge the family of an inmate for their stay at Her Maj's pleasure? No. Instead it's muggins who oh so charitably pays that bill.

I find it quite appalling that the Australian taxpayer is paying for Ivan Milat to stay behind bars for that pricely sum.

He is one of the exceptional cases, at least here in Australia, where capital punishment is 100% warranted.


Very definitely against, no matter what the circumstances.
Outrageous. How can you not find it utterly disgraceful that someone who killed 31 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)) is still alive and being funded by the taxpayer??

[Roamy]

It is very sad that we keep this scum around for a average of over 10 years before we kill it. Charging taxpayers 75k per year per prisioner.

murder 1 and 2nd death within 1 year
3 violent crimes death within 1 year
rape of minor death within 1 year
rape of adult - casteration however rape of a adult has to have guidelines cuz you know how those bitches can lie!!

[Tazio]

rape of adult - casteration however rape of a adult has to have guidelines cuz you know how those bitches can lie!!
That's why the best course of action is just waste their asses after you rape them!
Dead Ho's tell no tales :dozey:

[gadjo_dilo]

What happens in the case where the penalty doesn't exist? If someone is kept in prison for a life sentence, then the infrastructure that exists necessary to keep that person in prison, is paid for by the taxpayer for the term of that person's life. From an economic standpoint, a $100 bullet is far cheaper than say the $1.5m required to keep someone incarcerated for 30 years.

As I'm against the capital punishment ( not because I have any mercy for the killer but more because of the moral issue of this kind of punishment ) I suggest that all those emprisoned for killing or rape should have a hard time: bread, water and some herbal soup, a few phisical "corrections" from time to time, separate detention, no TV , cold rooms, etc. They can also be used for hard work to pay for their "maintanance".

[Dave B]

Against, for all manner of reasons. Not the least of which is the evidence which suggests that a jury is less likely to convict when it would mean the death of the accused.

Wrongful convictions can and do happen: at least somebody wrongfully imprisoned can be released and compensated, it's a tad harder once they're in a coffin.

[Ranger]

Wrongful convictions can and do happen: at least somebody wrongfully imprisoned can be released and compensated, it's a tad harder once they're in a coffin.

That's why personally I'd only want the death penalty to apply to very exceptional cases.

[Valve Bounce]

That's why personally I'd only want the death penalty to apply to very exceptional cases.

It's who making the exception that concerns me.

[555-04Q2]

I'm all for it. If you kill someone, you deserve to die as well. The killer doesnt give their victim a choice or a right to life, so why should they. Hang the them all.

[Ranger]

It's who making the exception that concerns me.

If I had it my way right now, anyone who is currently in the position of being sentenced to 'life without parole' should be considered for capital punishment.

In Australia that totals less than 10 people, most of whom are serial killers, spree killers, rapists or all three.

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm all for it. If you kill someone, you deserve to die as well. The killer doesnt give their victim a choice or a right to life, so why should they. Hang the them all.

But the hangman is also taking a life.....
Following the reasonong he also deserve to die.

[Drew]

For. But only when there is no doubt it was him / her that commited the crime.

[schmenke]

.... From an economic standpoint, a $100 bullet is far cheaper than say the $1.5m required to keep someone incarcerated for 30 years.

That is the very reason why I'm in favour of it.

[schmenke]

But the hangman is also taking a life.....
Following the reasonong he also deserve to die.

Heck, I'll pull the trigger...

[steve_spackman]

It is very sad that we keep this scum around for a average of over 10 years before we kill it. Charging taxpayers 75k per year per prisioner.

murder 1 and 2nd death within 1 year
3 violent crimes death within 1 year
rape of minor death within 1 year
rape of adult - casteration however rape of a adult has to have guidelines cuz you know how those bitches can lie!!

cost more to have someone put to death than to keep them in prison for life

[schmenke]

cost more to have someone put to death than to keep them in prison for life

Doesn't have to be.

[BDunnell]

Outrageous. How can you not find it utterly disgraceful that someone who killed 31 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)) is still alive and being funded by the taxpayer??

Because I simply do not believe in capital punishment under any circumstances. End of story.

[BDunnell]

That's why personally I'd only want the death penalty to apply to very exceptional cases.

How would you define that, then? I'm sure those instances in the past where someone innocent, or about whose conviction there were doubts, would have been defined as 'exceptional cases'.

[BDunnell]

If I had it my way right now, anyone who is currently in the position of being sentenced to 'life without parole' should be considered for capital punishment.

In Australia that totals less than 10 people, most of whom are serial killers, spree killers, rapists or all three.

What benefit would this serve?

[Cooper_S]

What benefit would this serve?

Again I find my view on the issue in sync with you...

As for 'taxpayers' money being used to keep convicted felons in prison... the Prison service has one of the most tightly controlled budgets and expenditure of any government department... there are billions in taxpayers money wasted in others sections... personally I find that to be utterly disgraceful

It was not that long ago that some of my countrymen after twenty years in prison for murder where found to be innocent and released... they only had the opportunity to be released because the death penalty was abolished...

Thankfully we have outlawed the death penalty across the EU long may it prevail

[Valve Bounce]

cost more to have someone put to death than to keep them in prison for life

Not if you march them into a paddy field, tell them to kneel down, shoot them in the back of the head, then charge the family for the bullet.

[donKey jote]

Your quoting an "Existentialist" A philosophy that is opposed to “Rationalism” and “Empiricism,”
BTW I'm against it! ;)
now there's one I have read (the Plague) ;)

BTW totally against it.
Capital Punishment is morally wrong in my (secular) Book - I don't even need a god to tell me not to kill :p :

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

[Malbec]

You don't get it: the STATE does not pay for the bullet - they send the bill to the executed guy's family. I don't think they would be in any position to dispute payment for the bullet either. :(

I am not aware that anyone is kept in jail for life in China - not unless they make the guy's life a rather short one. My mind boggles at the idea that China would cough up 1.5 million quid to keep some poor bugger in jail for life.

Oh yeah!! if the penalty doesn't exist - I am sure the Chinese would think something up pretty quickly - like around 30 seconds max!! :eek:

The Chinese do have life sentences too, the choice to have executions is not a financial one. The bill for the bullet it also largely symbolic, since the bullets are so cheap it probably costs the state more to send the bill and process the payment. It is more to do with Confucian concepts that families are responsible for the behaviour of the individual and to ram that point home.

However China is an example of where executions are abused with trading in organs from executed prisoners making money for corrupt officials. Its a good example for why the death penalty is not a good idea.

[Ranger]

Because I simply do not believe in capital punishment under any circumstances. End of story.
OK, I disagree with that but OK.

How would you define that, then? I'm sure those instances in the past where someone innocent, or about whose conviction there were doubts, would have been defined as 'exceptional cases'.
Well I'm a bit technocratic on these issues, I wouldn't be interested on punishing retrospectively based on precedents, rather I would punish based on the severity of the offense. Unfortunately I don't think thats how the law works.

Capital punishment, in my mind, should always be an absolute last resort, no doubt whatsoever.

What benefit would this serve?
Using the example I gave, think all the people, family and friends, who would be affected by the spree killing of 31 people.

Why should the taxpayer, which includes all those affected people, have to pay for this person to spend the rest of his life in prison?

[anthonyvop]

I favor capital punishment for.

Murder for Greed.

All Cases of treason!

[Valve Bounce]

I favor capital punishment for.

Murder for Greed.

All Cases of treason!

Oh!! the Chinese would love you!! Might frighten the Tibetans into silence though.

And then there's our friend Robert Mugabe - he'd be your lifelong friend there. You'd halve the population in Zimbabwe in no time, and some of his food shortage problems would be lessened.

[Tazio]

now there's one I have read (the Plague) ;)

http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

A clasisic!!

"You have refined taste for a donkey!" http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

;)

[Garry Walker]

I think that the death penalty is flawed due to the fact that the death penalty delivers a 'double punishment'; that of the execution and the preceding wait, and this is a mismatch to the crime.
.
Mismatch to the crime? Do you have any idea what kind of things some of the sick criminals have committed towards people and how they have killed them? They deserve to die and painfully (just as painfully as their victims did). But they will get off easy, they will get a painless death and if something goes wrong and the guy getting executed feels some pain, the idiotic organizations like amnesty international start crying and saying its inhumane.
The only mismatch to a crime is putting a serial killer in a gas chamber, a death far too easy on a scum like that.

I favour DP. Bigtime. Murderers, rapists, paedophiles and other vermin like that are completely useless and dangerous to the society, I for one think killing them is only the right thing to do for the good of the rest of the population.
I would have no moral dilemma about pulling the trigger on them myself. None whatsoever.




Outrageous. How can you not find it utterly disgraceful that someone who killed 31 people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Port_Arthur_massacre_(Australia)) is still alive and being funded by the taxpayer??
Because liberals are idiots who care about the rights of the criminal, but not of the victims.


What benefit would this serve?

It would be a just punishment and hey, it would also be cheaper than feeding their useless asses for another 40 years and letting them enjoy big screen TV, playstations and things like that, whilst their victims are either dead or suffering for life from the torture/rape inflicted on them.

[jim mcglinchey]

A clasisic!!

"You have refined taste for a donkey!" http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/16/16_3_166.gif

;)

We did L'Etranger for A-level French. Never really understood what the hell it was about other than providing inspiration for The Cures' Killing an Arab.

[Tazio]

We did L'Etranger for A-level French. Never really understood what the hell it was about other than providing inspiration for The Cures' Killing an Arab.
In "L'Etranger", like "The Plague" Camus exploits his theory of the absurd.
(The absurdity of human existence in an indifferent universe)
Although more refined, many believe this to be the pinnacle of his work. Both novels have as subject matter Arabic’s'.
Camus was a Pied-Noir whose Father was killed in The Battle of the Marne, which may explain his philosophical orientation!
At first I thought Steve picked a bad quotation for his objection to capital punishment.
Upon reconsideration, philosophically it is really thought provoking.......Or meaningless! :dozey:

[Brown, Jon Brow]

I don't believe in capital punishment. The 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' way of thinking is not something I want to be associated with.

[555-04Q2]

But the hangman is also taking a life.....
Following the reasonong he also deserve to die.

WTF :?:

[555-04Q2]

cost more to have someone put to death than to keep them in prison for life

Bullsh!t. One bullet @ a few dollars and a cheap ar$e coffin are a lot cheaper than a lifetime of free food, board and lodging at my tax money expense.

[555-04Q2]

Coming from a country where over 50 people are murdered everyday, and knowing several people whose family members were murdered by criminals, those victims families have a unanimuous verdit FOR the death penalty. Until you have been close to a victim or talk to a victims family, you cannot understand the pain involved. The death penalty would give these families closure at the very least.

[Captain VXR]

For only if it can be 100% proved that a person murdered in cold blood, raped, was a pedo, a terrorist, abused children and/or animals or drove someone to suicide deliberatly.

[BDunnell]

Coming from a country where over 50 people are murdered everyday, and knowing several people whose family members were murdered by criminals, those victims families have a unanimuous verdit FOR the death penalty. Until you have been close to a victim or talk to a victims family, you cannot understand the pain involved. The death penalty would give these families closure at the very least.

Not every relative/friend of a murder victim is in favour of the death penalty.

[Malbec]

Bullsh!t. One bullet @ a few dollars and a cheap ar$e coffin are a lot cheaper than a lifetime of free food, board and lodging at my tax money expense.

Factor in a lengthy court case and even lengthier appeals cases and the cost of executing someone goes up exponentially. Unless that is you want a thirdrate judiciary system that makes China look like utopia.

[Ranger]

Factor in a lengthy court case and even lengthier appeals cases and the cost of executing someone goes up exponentially. Unless that is you want a thirdrate judiciary system that makes China look like utopia.

Unfortunately you are right.

Cost of Capital Punishment. (http://law.jrank.org/pages/5002/Capital-Punishment-COSTS-CAPITAL-PUNISHMENT.html)

If only it was simple.

[555-04Q2]

Not every relative/friend of a murder victim is in favour of the death penalty.

I have the unfortunate situation of knowing 5 families who lost loved ones to either car hijackers, burglars and armed robberies. One of those was a close friend of mine who was cruely tortured and murdered in cold blood. All five families want the death penalty re-instated.

In an independant poll released in August last year, 82% of our population (across all ratial and age divides) voted in favour of the death penalty, yet the government blabs on about "human rights" for criminals. 82% tells a story if you ask me.

[555-04Q2]

Factor in a lengthy court case and even lengthier appeals cases and the cost of executing someone goes up exponentially. Unless that is you want a thirdrate judiciary system that makes China look like utopia.

Whether the guy is trying to stay out of jail for 25 to 30 years or save his neck, there will still be court cases and appeals. I dont see the validity of your point. People who are sentenced to life in prison also appeal their decisions. Housing a criminal for 25 years or more is a very costly affair.

[BDunnell]

I have the unfortunate situation of knowing 5 families who lost loved ones to either car hijackers, burglars and armed robberies. One of those was a close friend of mine who was cruely tortured and murdered in cold blood. All five families want the death penalty re-instated.

In an independant poll released in August last year, 82% of our population (across all ratial and age divides) voted in favour of the death penalty, yet the government blabs on about "human rights" for criminals. 82% tells a story if you ask me.

The majority is not always right, and certainly not on this issue in my opinion. And I'm afraid the five families you know do not constitute 'everyone'.

[Malbec]

Whether the guy is trying to stay out of jail for 25 to 30 years or save his neck, there will still be court cases and appeals. I dont see the validity of your point. People who are sentenced to life in prison also appeal their decisions. Housing a criminal for 25 years or more is a very costly affair.

My point is that executing people isn't as cheap as you make out. If you wish to maintain a good standard of justice as opposed to quick and easy show trials a la your neighbour, Zimbabwe, you'll find that there's not much difference in expense between execution and life sentences.

Also there is no evidence that execution deters criminals from committing crimes. Looking at the US there is no significant difference in crime between states that continue to execute and those that don't. As death sentences were phased out across Europe in the late 20th century their abolition was not accompanied by a rise in crime either. The situation in South Africa now is due to poor government and security, not the lack of the death penalty.

Compare that with the effect on crime of increasing the risk of being caught, which has been effectively shown to reduce murder rates. Effective police forces deter murderers more than harsh punishments.

Since there is no objective evidence that the death penalty is either an effective deterrent or cheaper (assuming you keep judicial standards that are expected of a civilised society) one can therefore assume that the desire for executions is down to simple bloodlust and vengeance. Those aren't particularly admirable qualities for a society to hold, at least for those that see themselves as more advanced than the Taliban.

[Easy Drifter]

There is hard evidence that execution deters one crimminal from reoffending. :D

[Cooper_S]

There is hard evidence that execution deters one crimminal from reoffending. :D


There is NO evidence it 'deters' re-offending... only that it 'prevents' that one fellon from re-offending, which is not the same thing.

[Tazio]

There is NO evidence it 'deters' re-offending... only that it 'prevents' that one fellon from re-offending, which is not the same thing.I think E.D. was being ironical :crazy: :p :

[Cooper_S]

LOL... I know, it was just semantics but I couldn't let it slide... no malice was intended.

[555-04Q2]

The majority is not always right, and certainly not on this issue in my opinion. And I'm afraid the five families you know do not constitute 'everyone'.

Trust me when I say I agree with you that the majority are not always right, there are more idiots in the world that smart people. But a democracy calls for a majority to decide the outcome of decisions via voting.

[BDunnell]

Trust me when I say I agree with you that the majority are not always right, there are more idiots in the world that smart people. But a democracy calls for a majority to decide the outcome of decisions via voting.

I hope that capital punishment is never the subject of a referendum in the UK, because I believe the majority would probably vote in favour and their knee-jerk, ill-informed decision would be entirely wrong.

[Cooper_S]

I'm only new here so not sure but I think 555-14Q2 is from Africa and not the UK... although he may be an ex-pat.

Thankfully because of EU rules the UK can not introduce the death penalty so no worries there.

[Roamy]

the only problem with capital punishment in this country is that it takes tooooooo long to kill the mf's. Those against capital punishment should pay more in taxes to keep the scum around.

[Cooper_S]

Those against capital punishment should pay more in taxes to keep the scum around.

Fine by me, although as pointed out earlier in the thread... as the cost may actually go down I will expect a rebate... :)

[F1boat]

I am against capital punishment. There is a risk that you can kill an innocent. About the most shocking cases, the monsters must live in jail and understand what they have done.

[anthonyvop]

Oh!! the Chinese would love you!! Might frighten the Tibetans into silence though.

And then there's our friend Robert Mugabe - he'd be your lifelong friend there. You'd halve the population in Zimbabwe in no time, and some of his food shortage problems would be lessened.

Jeez.
It goes without saying I meant in a free society.

[markabilly]

For in cases of premeditated murder where there is no question of possible innocence.
Also for in the case of anyone on these forums who has the terminity to disagree with me! :vader: :eek: :D


As to the first item, I agree, if there is reasonable doubt and somebody might well have done the crime, then give them life without parole

And for all you start whining, even if he didnot actually do it, there is plenty of others things that they most likely did and got away with, so the punishment still fits

As to item number 2, no need for all that, just give them a glass of kool aid, and they shall see the light or something


opps :eek: , i thunk I did sorta disagree...oh well.... :grenade:

[Camelopard]

the only problem with capital punishment in this country is that it takes tooooooo long to kill the mf's. Those against capital punishment should pay more in taxes to keep the scum around.


Sounds like you would be a fan of sharia law like them god damn muslims have, eh fousto? :)

Off with their heads I say!

Two Saudi police officers beheaded for rape


Agence France-Presse
February 21, 2009 02:34am

TWO Saudi police officers were beheaded by the sword after being convicted of raping an expatriate woman.
Corporal Shaalan (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=23109&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Corporal%20Shaalan)bin Nasser al-Qahtani and Lance Corporal Fahd bin Hassan al-Sebeyi (http://search.news.com.au/search//0/?us=ndmnews&sid=23109&as=news&ac=ninews2&q=Hassan%20al-Sebeyi)were convicted of attacking an expatriate and raping his niece at a checkpoint they were manning in the capital.

They had stopped them late in the night, beat the man up and locked him in a police car and then raped the woman.

The two men were arrested shortly after the victims reported them at the nearest police station.

Their executions bring to 11 the number of beheadings announced by the Saudi authorities since the beginning of the year. A total of 102 people were executed last year.

In 2007, a record 153 people were executed in the country, which applies a strict version of sharia, or Islamic law. That figure compared with 37 in 2006 and the previous record of 113 in 2000.

Rape, murder, apostasy, armed robbery and drug trafficking can all carry the death penalty in Saudi Arabia, where executions are usually carried out in public.



http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25086001-23109,00.html

[555-04Q2]

the only problem with capital punishment in this country is that it takes tooooooo long to kill the mf's. Those against capital punishment should pay more in taxes to keep the scum around.

I cant believe I am saying this, but for once, fousto and I agree upon something :) Hell, thunderstorms for me tonight :p :

[555-04Q2]

I'm only new here so not sure but I think 555-14Q2 is from Africa and not the UK... although he may be an ex-pat.

Thankfully because of EU rules the UK can not introduce the death penalty so no worries there.

Proudly South African :)

[Roamy]

I cant believe I am saying this, but for once, fousto and I agree upon something :) Hell, thunderstorms for me tonight :p :

See 555 learning the correct way is easy once you get started :p :

Oh maybe we should start a tread about South Africa or maybe Africa in general. It would be kind of interesting where we agree and disagree.

what do you think?

[Camelopard]

Oh maybe we should start a tread about South Africa or maybe Africa in general. It would be kind of interesting where we agree and disagree.

what do you think?

Nope, definately disagree with this........ :)

[Roamy]

Oh Boy And your comments are welcome too Camelopard !!!!

[AAReagles]

Very definately for, under very specific circumstances.

Sounds pretty reasonable to me. :up:




I find it quite appalling that the Australian taxpayer is paying for Ivan Milat to stay behind bars for that pricely sum.

He is one of the exceptional cases, at least here in Australia, where capital punishment is 100% warranted.

What about that guy who set those fires in Australia ? He doesn't deserve any mercy either after he waged war on his own country.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I hope that capital punishment is never the subject of a referendum in the UK, because I believe the majority would probably vote in favour and their knee-jerk, ill-informed decision would be entirely wrong.


Now I read this and I am stuck in a quandary: While Agreeing with you that Capital Punishment is wrong, I will not agree that the democratic will of the people is EVER really "Wrong". I guess this truly is what you Brits referred to as a "Sticky Wicket".

I am against it only because of the fact that the justice system is so ineffiecient and often corrupt (not all the time, or even 5% of the time) enough that I would never trust it. Now in the cases of such people like a Jeffery Dalmer, or the killer in Dunblane Scotland ( his name escapes me) or the infamous Paul Bernardo here in Canada, I wouldn't lose sleep if they were done in by the state. I hear the arguments that it is "inhumane" and I laugh. Keeping someone locked up for life like an animal is equally inhumane and I am all in favour of it if not for the cost. That is the only compelling reason I can think of for offing the really obvious offenders. That said, we have a one size fits all justice system. We have inept prosecuters, even more inept defense attorneys. We have corrupt cops and corrupt prosecuters (although very few in number, just look up the David Milgaard case here in Canada or Guy Paul Morin.) and then you start and wonder about the permanency of it.

No...I object to it only because our justice system isn't accurate enough or efficient enough for me to feel sure we got the right guy EVERY TIME. I think these scum shouldn't be breathing the same air as me but I cannot guarntee everyone convicted for this sentence was truly guilty. IF we cannot get it right, then we must err on the side of caution.

That said, being caught in the act of killing someone should give the cops all the justification needed to finish some of these mutts off but that only really happens in the movies....

So while Iam against it, I am with the for in sentiment.

I do feel though the majority if really wanting it should at least be allowed to debate the question. A referendum on the question is NEVER offered to the general public. IF those against feel they have the argument (and I would) then I am not afraid of the debate. What bothers me is many on the left who wont have the debate or referenedum because they are scared that the great unwashwed will ignore them. I guess then the case wasn't made strongly enough was it?

[markabilly]

Now I read this and I am stuck in a quandary: While Agreeing with you that Capital Punishment is wrong, I will not agree that the democratic will of the people is EVER really "Wrong". I guess this truly is what you Brits referred to as a "Sticky Wicket".

I am against it only because of the fact that the justice system is so ineffiecient and often corrupt (not all the time, or even 5% of the time) enough that I would never trust it. Now in the cases of such people like a Jeffery Dalmer, or the killer in Dunblane Scotland ( his name escapes me) or the infamous Paul Bernardo here in Canada, I wouldn't lose sleep if they were done in by the state. I hear the arguments that it is "inhumane" and I laugh. Keeping someone locked up for life like an animal is equally inhumane and I am all in favour of it if not for the cost. That is the only compelling reason I can think of for offing the really obvious offenders. That said, we have a one size fits all justice system. We have inept prosecuters, even more inept defense attorneys. We have corrupt cops and corrupt prosecuters (although very few in number, just look up the David Milgaard case here in Canada or Guy Paul Morin.) and then you start and wonder about the permanency of it.

No...I object to it only because our justice system isn't accurate enough or efficient enough for me to feel sure we got the right guy EVERY TIME. I think these scum shouldn't be breathing the same air as me but I cannot guarntee everyone convicted for this sentence was truly guilty. IF we cannot get it right, then we must err on the side of caution.

That said, being caught in the act of killing someone should give the cops all the justification needed to finish some of these mutts off but that only really happens in the movies....

So while Iam against it, I am with the for in sentiment.

I do feel though the majority if really wanting it should at least be allowed to debate the question. A referendum on the question is NEVER offered to the general public. IF those against feel they have the argument (and I would) then I am not afraid of the debate. What bothers me is many on the left who wont have the debate or referenedum because they are scared that the great unwashwed will ignore them. I guess then the case wasn't made strongly enough was it?


So as I said before, punishment should not fit the crime, it should fit how much evidence clearly shows he did it...perhaps we could have national polls for each particular criminal to decide live or die

(and also charge broadcast rights for one TV channel to have the exclusive rights, sort of a reality show, kind of deal, to pay for all the costs and help with revenues).....

or a system for murder punishment, DNA evidence and a video of him/her doing it, then death....no dna but film, they get life, and no dna, no film, just some witness saying it, then 30 years, and finally just some suspicion, then 10 years????

And if do not really care about the victim, or do not like the victim, we could just say, "go forth, be free, but sin no more"?

I sat on a jury pool on a trial for stealing, and when one member (not me unfortunately) was asked by the defense lawyer, if selected, would they have a problem with placing the defendant on probation, to which he responded, "not at all, if I thought he did not really do it..."

[Roamy]

well seeing how this thread is sooooooo serious I am going to give you Euros some Sunday humor

Subject: Things a Texan will never say



30. Oh I just couldn't, she's only sixteen.

29. I'll take Shakespeare for 1000, Alex.

28. Duct tape won't fix that.

27. Come to think of it, I'll have a Heineken.

26. We don't keep firearms in this house.

25. You can't feed that to the dog.

24. No kids in the back of the pickup, it's just not safe.

23. Wrestling is fake.

22. We're vegetarians.

21. Do you think my gut is too big?

20. I'll have grapefruit and grapes instead of biscuits and
gravy.

19. Honey, we don't need another dog.

18. Who gives a damn who won the Civil War?

17. Give me the small bag of pork rinds.

16. Too many deer heads detract from the decor.

15. I just couldn't find a thing at Wal-Mart today.

14. Trim the fat off that steak.

13. Cappuccino tastes better than espresso.

12. The tires on that truck are too big.

11. I've got it all on the C: DRIVE.

10. Unsweetened tea tastes better.

9. My fiancé, Bobbie Jo, is registered at Tiffany's.

8. I've got two cases of Zima for the Super Bowl.

7. Checkmate

6. She's too young to be wearing a bikini.

5. Hey, here's an episode of "Hee Haw" that we haven't seen.

4. I don't have a favorite college team.

3. You Guys.

2. Those shorts ought to be a little longer, Betty Mae.

AND THE NUMBER ONE THING THAT YOU WILL NEVER HEAR A SOUTHERN
BOY
SAY:

1. Nope, no more for me. I'm driving

[markabilly]

All shucks, now you dun gone and done, slandered the greatest state of the USA

First no Texan would pay a thousand for any woman, even a woman named named shakespeare, although I hear some of you Euro-FIA types will and have paid more ....

And unsweeted tea?????? real Texan don't drink tea sweet or unsweet

and many a Texan has said "no more for me, I'm driving" (usually along with something like "I am getting tired of your head bumping the steering wheel, honey" or "is not three times enough while I am driving?"

next thing I know you will issuing some slander like, "How do you know he is a native born Texan? Cause he's got a house that is mobile and 15 cars that ain't"

or start telling lies that there was some death row texas imate, while waiting some 20 years to get his final shot, started a joke contest where he could be told one last joke, something called Deadman Laughing.....

truth is no self respecting true Texan would ever like to see the state of texas lock some poor bubba up and wait ten years to execute him, when a few good texans could do it real quick and personal

[555-04Q2]

Oh maybe we should start a tread about South Africa or maybe Africa in general. It would be kind of interesting where we agree and disagree.

what do you think?

I'm always game. Dont know what you would want to discuss though. Our continent is so corrupt the discussion could go on forever :p :

[Garry Walker]

I am against capital punishment. There is a risk that you can kill an innocent. About the most shocking cases, the monsters must live in jail and understand what they have done.

Are you for real? Those "monsters" will not think about what they have done, they will laugh at the idiots who talk about rehabilitation and will just enjoy what the state gives them.
Here is an example of a typically tough prison. Yeah, what a hard punishment this must be.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljkJtDQ0QLs

[Cooper_S]

LOL... I'm not so sure this prision in Greenland is a Typically tough prison...

[PolePosition_1]

What happens in the case where the penalty doesn't exist? If someone is kept in prison for a life sentence, then the infrastructure that exists necessary to keep that person in prison, is paid for by the taxpayer for the term of that person's life. From an economic standpoint, a $100 bullet is far cheaper than say the $1.5m required to keep someone incarcerated for 30 years.

In the USA, its actually cheaper to keep someone locked up for life, simply because of the legal fees involved in giving the death penalty, with 8 odd years in jail leading up to this, theres often an appeal, a lawyer provided, the court etc etc etc, they've found it costs more than just banging them up in jail for life.

Personally, I'm for it but only in a huge minority of cases and exceptional circumstances.

[Cooper_S]

huge minority


...... is that like a small majority :s pin:

[Mark in Oshawa]

...... is that like a small majority :s pin:

Large minority, small majority....same thing only kind of different!

[speedy king]

Very un-decided, working within the environment of these people in question though i would have to say with experience of looking through these cases and the reasons behind many crimes relying in drug addiction which you could then take back to asking, who are the people feeding youngsters drugs at school gates? And surely they are just as part of the latter crime which evolves, there are too many external circumstances and a HUGE amount of in-consistant sentences to give a penalty of death to anyone.

[555-04Q2]

Bleedin hearts...hang the b@st@rds I say

[Roamy]

some facts for you

Doctors vs Gun Owners


Doctors

The number of physicians in the U.S.: 700,000

Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year: 120,000

Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171

*Courtesy of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.


Now think about this: Guns

The number of gun owners in the U.S.: 80,000,000 (Yes, that's 80 million)

The number of accidental gun deaths per year: 1,500

The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188

*Courtesy of the FBI



So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Guns don't kill people, doctors do.
NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT... ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

[Easy Drifter]

What are the figures for deliberate killing by doctors VS deliberate killing with a gun?

[Brown, Jon Brow]

some facts for you

Doctors vs Gun Owners


Doctors

The number of physicians in the U.S.: 700,000

Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year: 120,000

Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171

*Courtesy of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.


Now think about this: Guns

The number of gun owners in the U.S.: 80,000,000 (Yes, that's 80 million)

The number of accidental gun deaths per year: 1,500

The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188

*Courtesy of the FBI



So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Guns don't kill people, doctors do.
NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT... ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.


How many lives do guns save though?

[AAReagles]

Post (#41)


I favor capital punishment for.

Murder for Greed.

All Cases of treason!




Post #42


Oh!! the Chinese would love you!! Might frighten the Tibetans into silence though..


Well he does hint about accountability, and quite frankly I agree with him - despite the harsh measure he proposes - which I also support.

Like others in the US, I am finding it difficult to exercise the slightest tolerance for negligence of any sort.

Whether it's the lady who grew careless with a chimpanze as a pet... the Dr. who performed the infertization on OctoMom... community leaders accepting the bids for taxpayers to fund a new sports stadium... Linda Thomsen of the SEC who like others on the board failed to do her job when warnings were given (again & again)... or an administration that led us on to war (which I had no problem with, other than it was handled badly) - yet let Walter Reed Army Medical Center erode into not only an unacceptable conditions, but hazardous as well.


Not all of above mentioned should be dispatched with CP measures, nevertheless these are people who need to be accordingly held responsible for their action, or lack there of. The problem is, as we all already know, is this sort of thing has been going on for far too long. As expected Anthonyvop (as well as myself) has a good reason to be ticked off.

Feelings of compassion are not so easily dispensed on people like Manson, nor Madoff, when one recognizes the damages they've done.

As mentioned before, as far as my views on Capital Punishment goes; it's about accountability.

[Cooper_S]

May those espousing CP or a family member never have occasion to suffer a miscarriage of justice...

[ShiftingGears]

some facts for you

Doctors vs Gun Owners


Doctors

The number of physicians in the U.S.: 700,000

Accidental deaths caused by Physicians per year: 120,000

Accidental deaths per physician: 0.171

*Courtesy of the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services.


Now think about this: Guns

The number of gun owners in the U.S.: 80,000,000 (Yes, that's 80 million)

The number of accidental gun deaths per year: 1,500

The number of accidental deaths per gun owner is 0.000188

*Courtesy of the FBI



So, statistically, doctors are approximately 9,000 times more dangerous than gun owners. Guns don't kill people, doctors do.
NOT EVERYONE HAS A GUN, BUT... ALMOST EVERYONE HAS AT LEAST ONE DOCTOR.

Doctors don't kill people. Incurable diseases do.

[AAReagles]

May those espousing CP or a family member never have occasion to suffer a miscarriage of justice...

True. And yet may those who are opposed to CP (or a family member of theirs) never receive a miscarriage of justice...

Such as in the case of 1988 Democrat President nominee, Michael Dukakis, when acting as a governor commuted the sentences of 21 first-degree murderers and those of 23 second-degree murderers.

Not to mention a notable thug named William R. Horton, a convicted felon who was released on a weekend fulough program while serving a life sentence for murder, without the possibility of parole, in which he committed armed robbery and rape.

And with the looks of how things are imploding in Mexico with drug cartels taking over, there is a distinct possibility of the government reinstating CP due to public outrage.

[BDunnell]

And with the looks of how things are imploding in Mexico with drug cartels taking over, there is a distinct possibility of the government reinstating CP due to public outrage.

Never a good reason for making a decision.

[markabilly]

How many lives do guns save though?


Mine, once.

And two others on another occaison.

Both incidents involved nasty asses with knives and a bit of booze for attitude.

Without the gun, three dead, including me, as there is no way I would have beat the bad boys without it.

Then there was another time, that the other guy did have a gun and intended to use it.

And I am not a police officer

[markabilly]

True.

And with the looks of how things are imploding in Mexico with drug cartels taking over, there is a distinct possibility of the government reinstating CP due to public outrage.


Never a good reason for making a decision.


WRONG Again, but what else to expect?

ALWAYS the BEST reason

[markabilly]

True. And yet may those who are opposed to CP (or a family member of theirs) never receive a miscarriage of justice...

Such as in the case of 1988 Democrat President nominee, Michael Dukakis, when acting as a governor commuted the sentences of 21 first-degree murderers and those of 23 second-degree murderers.

Not to mention a notable thug named William R. Horton, a convicted felon who was released on a weekend fulough program while serving a life sentence for murder, without the possibility of parole, in which he committed armed robbery and rape.

And with the looks of how things are imploding in Mexico with drug cartels taking over, there is a distinct possibility of the government reinstating CP due to public outrage.

The most intelligent comment about CP, ever made, was not made by some dumbass federal old fart judge who could not find his own but like the old farts on the Supreme dumbass Court...or some dumb PhD who sat on his fat but, in an arm chair, never having worked any his of his life...or some political hack or others who bend over their ass backwards to try to be soooo pooolitically correct and with all the latest fads.

It was towards the end of serial killer standing trial, the guy had a habit of raping and killing young girls (and they were usually hispanic), burying them in the desert, back sometime in the early 1990's.

The jury found him guilty and the next part was the sentencing. Some news reporter caught the one of the mothers going out the door.

They confronted, camera in her face, demanding to know how could giving him the death penalty be justified.

Poor woman spoke only broken English and was having a tough time understanding the hard, fast grilling questions fired aat her.

Finally one says, "What we want to know is how is giving him death going to deter others from doing the same thing?"

she said in a heavy accent, "what is deter?" He said "stop"

She said, "oh see, it not deter others"
So he crowed, "you agree!!!!"

And in her heavy accent, she said "oh see, not others, but when they kill him, it will stop him forever from hurting any more girls, so no one worry about him"

[AAReagles]

Never a good reason for making a decision.
According to your views, yes.

However if you lived there and experienced the war zone environment that those people in Mexico are struggling with and have been affected by, I'm inclined to believe your opinion on CP would change.

Like others have stated already, I want CP to be appropriately carried out when clear evidence displays without any reasonable doubt that the convicted is guilty as charged.

Without speaking on behalf of others here who are in favor of CP, I will clearly state that with my convictions on such a subject I am indeed morally wrong, and without offending anyone's personal beliefs, I am spiritually wrong as well.

I also know that I am a barbarian because of my views on CP. I can accept such a title, just as much as I can accept the fact that we live in an imperfect world full of hostility and violence... since the beginning of time.

[AAReagles]

Here's an idea I have, for the US anyhow - an idea that might appease both sides on this fragile subject. Though I'm sure some here won't support or agree with it.

I'll refer to it as the "Catch-N-Release" program, derived from the phrase used by those who fish.

Take these jokers and place them on C-130 military transport planes, and restrain them on chairs secured to a drop-sled of some sort similar to what the 82nd Airborne used for low-level drops of Sheridan tanks.

Then the aircraft(s) will deploy them in the same manner as those tanks are dispatched, but... on Midway Island, which is about 2-5 sq. miles in area.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNRfCTSov5g

I realize that there are hazards involved, such as the sled flipping over, getting a crab-strike in the face or whatever, but it's the only option I'm willing to provide those rodents.

Attached to their sled (located either forward or back of the passengers) would be two large containers:

One would be labeled as - "Military Survival Supplies" - in it would contain for each man (and each condemned woman too for that matter) a K-bar knife, a pancho, fishing line, fishing hooks, matches, and a funnel/plastic-container combination for to purpose of catching rain water.

And just for kicks-n-giggles, the other container would be labeled as - "Alcohol - Tobacco - Food Provisions" in which on they finally busted it open with fury using a coconut they would discover nothing more than numerous compasses and calendars.


Sorry folks, but that's the best I can do for them.

[Easy Drifter]

One suggestion mooted more than once here would be a camp in our north roughly 300 miles from any town but on a lake or river. Basic cabins with beds, tables, chairs and wood stoves for cooking and heat. No running water. Outhouses. Axes supplied. Basic fishing tackle. All supplies needed including basic food, clothing and bedding supplied by air. Adequate winter clothing for needs around camp for using outhouses, cutting wood and getting water from lake, but not for outdoor survival in winter. No electricty, just kerosene lamps. No road or rail access.
No guards or staff. Small generator supplied with fuel to provide emergency service for calls for medical aid. Doctor would visit weekly with supply plane.
If you wanted to leave, 300 miles of woods & swamp to cross. If you make it fine but no search or rescue parties.
The lib left have a fit at the idea. Hard time would really be hard time.

[BDunnell]

WRONG Again, but what else to expect?

ALWAYS the BEST reason

So you seriously think that public outrage, no matter whether it's ill-informed or not, is the best reason for making policy?

[markabilly]

So you seriously think that public outrage, no matter whether it's ill-informed or not, is the best reason for making policy?


I must say in this particular question, I conceede I was somewhat wrong, but it struck me as good as those who say kill them for doing a really nasty murder where there is lots of evidence (hence the lesser the evidence and the horror of the crime, the lesser the punishment....)

. But it should be noted, when in a a war, no one ever wins a war dying for their country, they win wars making the other guy die for his......

AS to the really best reason, already posted, so I repeat because you have already forgot:


The most intelligent comment about CP, ever made, was not made by some dumbass federal old fart judge who could not find his own but like the old farts on the Supreme dumbass Court...or some dumb PhD who sat on his fat but, in an arm chair, never having worked any his of his life...or some political hack or others who bend over their ass backwards to try to be soooo pooolitically correct and with all the latest fads.

It was towards the end of serial killer standing trial, the guy had a habit of raping and killing young girls (and they were usually hispanic), burying them in the desert, back sometime in the early 1990's.

The jury found him guilty and the next part was the sentencing. Some news reporter caught the one of the mothers going out the door.

They confronted, camera in her face, demanding to know how could giving him the death penalty be justified.

Poor woman spoke only broken English and was having a tough time understanding the hard, fast grilling questions fired aat her.

Finally one says, "What we want to know is how is giving him death going to deter others from doing the same thing?"

she said in a heavy accent, "what is deter?" He said "stop"

She said, "oh see, it not deter others"
So he crowed, "you agree!!!!"

And in her heavy accent, she said "oh see, not others, but when they kill him, it will stop him forever from hurting any more girls, so no one worry about him"


As to doctors, I say kill them as well, who really needs most of those arrogant little holier than thou pricks who charge so dearly for the price of mercy, yet have so little to give ....ever heard of one of those docs even volunteering to return their fees after screwing somebody up, even killing them?
Noooo, all they do is want more money for more treatment to fix what they done, even if it is only filing out the death certificate---yes, they desrve the money, after all it is a lot of work to fill out the form esp, trying to hide how they killed their patient..

And those banks that are failing due to greed and out sourcing of jobs ......I just heard from someone who worked at Chase bank had their job outsourced to India, been looking for work but no luck, except as a convience store clerk---hard to replace that 60k salary with convience store pay, and now they just got their foreclosed upon....by Chase bank subsidariary, with the paperwork being partially handled through some India firm....SWEET real SWEET...they ask me what i think, and I told them I do not know, but a public execution of those same folks, still pulling down thie 5 to 50 million bonuses would be a good start....

bama will not be fxing this problem with an endless supply of stimulants, but I could, real quick

[Camelopard]

Another example of fine police 'work' which could have ended up with a death penalty.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-officers-charged-over-cardiff-three-miscarriage-of-justice-1636833.html

"In a statement, Mr Miller, Mr Paris, Mr Abdullahi, John Actie and the family of his deceased cousin Ronald said they never regained the lives they had before they were allegedly "fitted up". They said: "Our lives have been utterly destroyed by being branded brutal murderers." "

[Garry Walker]

Another example of fine police 'work' which could have ended up with a death penalty.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/police-officers-charged-over-cardiff-three-miscarriage-of-justice-1636833.html

"In a statement, Mr Miller, Mr Paris, Mr Abdullahi, John Actie and the family of his deceased cousin Ronald said they never regained the lives they had before they were allegedly "fitted up". They said: "Our lives have been utterly destroyed by being branded brutal murderers." "

Except they were never even convicted of murder, so no danger of DP there.

[Camelopard]

Except they were never even convicted of murder, so no danger of DP there.

Where is your evidence for that statement?

Stuff I have read including the original article that I pointed to said they were convicted of murder including this press release from The Crown Prosecution Service". http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/archive/2007/113_07.html

"Lynette White was killed in Cardiff in 1988 and three men were convicted of her murder in 1990: Stephen Wayne Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Anthony Paris. Two other men were acquitted."

Other news sources:

"Stephen Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Anthony Paris were jailed in 1990 for the murder of Lynette White"

"After a second trial in 1990, Miller, Abdullahi and Paris were convicted of Lynette White's murder but their convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal in 1992."

"Her boyfriend Stephen Miller and his friends Yusef Abdullahi and Tony Paris - known as the Cardiff Three - were jailed for the killing in 1990 but were released two years later after their convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal."

Interesting paragraph from: http://www.fittedin.com/after-care/60-the-still-forgotten-victims-.html

Just over five years ago (July 4th) legal history was made in Britain when South Wales Police became the first in Britain to correctly resolve a miscarriage of justice by convicting the truly guilty, but amid the euphoria the victims of this case continue to suffer. Jeffrey Gafoor – a former security guard – pleaded guilty to the horrific Valentine’s Day 1988 murder of Lynette White. Despite searching for a bloodstained white man ten months later five black men – Yusef Abdullahi, the cousins John and Ronnie Actie, Stephen Miller and Tony Paris – were arrested.

[Garry Walker]

Where is your evidence for that statement?

Stuff I have read including the original article that I pointed to said they were convicted of murder including this press release from The Crown Prosecution Service". http://www.cps.gov.uk/news/pressreleases/archive/2007/113_07.html

"Lynette White was killed in Cardiff in 1988 and three men were convicted of her murder in 1990: Stephen Wayne Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Anthony Paris. Two other men were acquitted."

Other news sources:

"Stephen Miller, Yusef Abdullahi and Anthony Paris were jailed in 1990 for the murder of Lynette White"

"After a second trial in 1990, Miller, Abdullahi and Paris were convicted of Lynette White's murder but their convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal in 1992."

"Her boyfriend Stephen Miller and his friends Yusef Abdullahi and Tony Paris - known as the Cardiff Three - were jailed for the killing in 1990 but were released two years later after their convictions were quashed by the Court of Appeal."

Interesting paragraph from: http://www.fittedin.com/after-care/60-the-still-forgotten-victims-.html

Just over five years ago (July 4th) legal history was made in Britain when South Wales Police became the first in Britain to correctly resolve a miscarriage of justice by convicting the truly guilty, but amid the euphoria the victims of this case continue to suffer. Jeffrey Gafoor – a former security guard – pleaded guilty to the horrific Valentine’s Day 1988 murder of Lynette White. Despite searching for a bloodstained white man ten months later five black men – Yusef Abdullahi, the cousins John and Ronnie Actie, Stephen Miller and Tony Paris – were arrested.

Actually, yes, I misread the article, because I was on the phone at the same.

[BeansBeansBeans]

In my view, capital punishment has no place in a civilised society.

Criminals who pose a danger to society should be locked away indefinitely, in humane conditions.

[Roamy]

In my view, capital punishment has no place in a civilised society.

Criminals who pose a danger to society should be locked away indefinitely, in humane conditions.

with a computer and a tv too in a studio apartment right

christ this could be better than retirement and you can rape your favorite and kill your no 1 enemy.

[BeansBeansBeans]

with a computer and a tv too in a studio apartment right

christ this could be better than retirement and you can rape your favorite and kill your no 1 enemy.

Would you give up your freedom for a television or a computer? I wouldn't.

[BDunnell]

Would you give up your freedom for a television or a computer? I wouldn't.

Exactly right. I suspect that none of those saying that prison is a breeze would wish to be in one. And to those who think that prison is a 'holiday camp' — well, to me, that sounds like the worst thing in the world, so prison is clearly still a genuine punishment.

[ShiftingGears]

Exactly right. I suspect that none of those saying that prison is a breeze would wish to be in one. And to those who think that prison is a 'holiday camp' — well, to me, that sounds like the worst thing in the world, so prison is clearly still a genuine punishment.

I'm sure some would find it just dandy.

[BeansBeansBeans]

To be locked away indefinitely in a cell is not something I would consider a pleasant experience, television or no television.

[ShiftingGears]

To be locked away indefinitely in a cell is not something I would consider a pleasant experience, television or no television.

But it's not about you, or me. It's about hardened criminals - rapists, murderers, and the like. If they enjoy it, is it a fitting punishment?
And would you want to pay for luxuries for those who have no remorse for their heinous crimes?

[ozrevhead]

As long as you will have humans trialing humans then I am against capital punnishment - there are many cases where innocent men and women are unfairly trialed. You cant unkill someone when you find out after their death

[BeansBeansBeans]

But it's not about you, or me. It's about hardened criminals - rapists, murderers, and the like. If they enjoy it, is it a fitting punishment?

I doubt they'd enjoy it though I don't really care either away. Those who pose a threat to society should be kept out of society. That's all I care about.


And would you want to pay for luxuries for those who have no remorse for their heinous crimes?

It genuinely doesn't bother me. I pay tax, and if a small amount of that tax goes to keeping dangerous people away from society, I'm all for it.

[555-04Q2]

Exactly right. I suspect that none of those saying that prison is a breeze would wish to be in one. And to those who think that prison is a 'holiday camp' — well, to me, that sounds like the worst thing in the world, so prison is clearly still a genuine punishment.

We have numerous articles in our daily paper that have people who are arrested, released from prison, re-arrested and re-released from prison, re-arrested....when asked why they keep on going back to prison/commiting crimes they say they dont mind cause they get free food, bed to sleep in, shower, TV etc. For some people, it is a holiday camp :(

[BDunnell]

We have numerous articles in our daily paper that have people who are arrested, released from prison, re-arrested and re-released from prison, re-arrested....when asked why they keep on going back to prison/commiting crimes they say they dont mind cause they get free food, bed to sleep in, shower, TV etc. For some people, it is a holiday camp :(

There is clearly something deficient, then, in terms of efforts to make these people fit to re-enter society if the crimes are not worthy of keeping them inside for life. I'm sure that some people are, alas, beyond hope in this respect, but not all.

[Garry Walker]

There is clearly something deficient, then, in terms of efforts to make these people fit to re-enter society if the crimes are not worthy of keeping them inside for life. I'm sure that some people are, alas, beyond hope in this respect, but not all.

Rehabilitation is bull. It simply does not work and criminals take advantage of too liberal systems, where prisons are almost a fun place to be at. When the outside life sucks and you cannot afford things that you enjoy, they know they will have them available at prison.
Prisons are far too easy these days, in my view they should not have any things such as Playstations, laptops, TVs. They should be happy we giving them food.

[Garry Walker]

It genuinely doesn't bother me. I pay tax, and if a small amount of that tax goes to keeping dangerous people away from society, I'm all for it.

So you think it is normal that a prisoners who has done awful deeds in his life can enjoy luxuries that an honest family (who does not claim benefits and live on the state) with many children cannot?

[Roamy]

anyone found 100% guilty of any murder crime should be capped within 6 months of any appeal. Anyone found guilty 3 times of any violent crime should be capped as well.

[BeansBeansBeans]

So you think it is normal that a prisoners who has done awful deeds in his life can enjoy luxuries that an honest family (who does not claim benefits and live on the state) with many children cannot?

Is a television really beyond the means of the average working family?

[Garry Walker]

Is a television really beyond the means of the average working family?
I am not talking television. I am talking stuff as playstations and laptops. Even TV they do not deserve.

[BeansBeansBeans]

I am not talking television. I am talking stuff as playstations and laptops. Even TV they do not deserve.

I guess prisoners need something to occupy their time, to avoid them becoming insane or causing trouble, and therefore becoming even more of a drain on society.

They've always had libraries, table-tennis....etc, so I guess a TV or Playstation is just an extension of that.

I think a fully kitted-out cell for every prisoner would be a bit extreme and unnecessary, but access to a communal computer or console I wouldn't really have a problem with.

[BDunnell]

Nor me. This is hardly a luxury nowadays. The comparison with books is a relevant one.

[Easy Drifter]

But should they have internet communication access?
Pedophiles on the internet talking to children?
Murders E mailing families of those they murdered?
Gang honchos directing operations from their cells?
Even joining forums such as this and communicating with gang members that way or posting and bragging about what they have done?
We right now have the case of Conrad Black (Lord Black of Crossharbour) who is in jail in Fla. serving 6 years for fraud writing a newspaper column for Canada's National Post, a paper he once owned.
Where do you draw the line?

[Roamy]

on the bad criminals pay the somalies a one time fee of 25k to take them

[ShiftingGears]

Rehabilitation is bull. It simply does not work

I think that is true for many criminals. Not all.

[555-04Q2]

Rehabilitation is bull. It simply does not work and criminals take advantage of too liberal systems, where prisons are almost a fun place to be at. When the outside life sucks and you cannot afford things that you enjoy, they know they will have them available at prison.
Prisons are far too easy these days, in my view they should not have any things such as Playstations, laptops, TVs. They should be happy we giving them food.

100% agree :up: rehabilitation is maybe successful with 1 in 100 people. The other 99 dont change, especially rapists and murderers.

[555-04Q2]

I guess prisoners need something to occupy their time, to avoid them becoming insane or causing trouble, and therefore becoming even more of a drain on society.

They've always had libraries, table-tennis....etc, so I guess a TV or Playstation is just an extension of that.

I think a fully kitted-out cell for every prisoner would be a bit extreme and unnecessary, but access to a communal computer or console I wouldn't really have a problem with.

They get 4 bl@@dy walls to look at at our expense. Why the f#ck should they get a TV ???????

[BeansBeansBeans]

They get 4 bl@@dy walls to look at at our expense. Why the f#ck should they get a TV ???????

I've provided a reason in the post you've quoted, and I feel no need to repeat myself.

[555-04Q2]

I've provided a reason in the post you've quoted, and I feel no need to repeat myself.

Was'nt having a go at you Beans, was having a go at the inmates!

[BeansBeansBeans]

I've provided a reason in the post you've quoted, and I feel no need to repeat myself.

But I'm typing this from my cell! :p :

[Mark in Oshawa]

At the risk of sounding libreal ( something that I usually DON'T like) I will say this. As someone who has a relative who worked for Corrections Canada for 35 years, I have a little knowledge of what a modern prison is like.

First off, I am all for taking away computer access for all but the most rehabilitated prisoners. Give the inmates TV but THAT's it. Internet for only very limited uses and only for prisoners within a year of release. The food is bland but there. The cells are small and the inmates spend a lot of time stuck in them. Hardly a camp of luxury. So prison IS Prison. My relative told me that for anyone to think prison is easy has never spent time in one obviously. Canada's prisons are pretty cushy compared to most around the world and unfortunately offer up the net and too much communication with the outside world.

I want the prisoners to have some sort of shot towards education and rehab but the point can never be lost that prisons should be nasty places to live for the lack of freedom. The prisoners must NOT want to come back. Right now, that aint happening is it?

I think a lot of people who want capital punishment want revenge and vengenence and I get that. I want it too, but rotting in prison for life should be a nastier fate and I think if prisons were just a tad more restrictive, then I think those for captial punishement would be more willing to have life sentences in lieu of the death penalty.

Many of you have just no idea of what it is like and that is fine, I am only having any knowledge based on my relative who retired as head of the shops at Collins Bay Institution in Kingston Ontario. One look at that prison and you are knowing that it isn't no camp....

[AAReagles]

... Criminals who pose a danger to society should be locked away indefinitely, in humane conditions.

In humane conditions huh? I suppose if Hitler hadn't offed himself, the same would apply to him.

Ah well I shouldn't bother on that notion anyways. As your conversation just got weak.




... And to those who think that prison is a 'holiday camp' — well, to me, that sounds like the worst thing in the world, so prison is clearly still a genuine punishment..

Genuine punishment ?

Your conversation is also weak.

[BeansBeansBeans]

Wow, you've really won me over with your extremely strong argument there.

[BDunnell]

In humane conditions huh? I suppose if Hitler hadn't offed himself, the same would apply to him.

Yes. So?



Your conversation is also weak.

Clearly you have a bit of a problem with people disagreeing with your opinion. And with the concept of irony...

[markabilly]

But should they have internet communication access?
Pedophiles on the internet talking to children?
Murders E mailing families of those they murdered?
Gang honchos directing operations from their cells?
Even joining forums such as this and communicating with gang members that way or posting and bragging about what they have done?
We right now have the case of Conrad Black (Lord Black of Crossharbour) who is in jail in Fla. serving 6 years for fraud writing a newspaper column for Canada's National Post, a paper he once owned.
Where do you draw the line?
where do you draw the line? About seven yards in front of the criminal...that away the firing squad don't get any splatter from brains and blood

Should they have internet acess? of course...right after standing 7 yards from the line

[Roamy]

now this is the way things get done properly


Shooting in Butte , Montana
Shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien Home Invaders:
Butte, Montana November 5, 2008

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably
believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in
Montana
and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.

Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed
his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the
first
to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee
crouch aim .. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.

When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left
shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before
medical help could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45
caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That
victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab
wounds to the chest.

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC,
CNN, or ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended
her home, and herself......against two A-hole, illegal immigrants.......and
she wins, she is still alive.

Now that is Gun Control !

[Mark in Oshawa]

now this is the way things get done properly


Shooting in Butte , Montana
Shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien Home Invaders:
Butte, Montana November 5, 2008

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably
believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in
Montana
and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.

Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed
his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the
first
to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee
crouch aim .. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.

When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left
shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before
medical help could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45
caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That
victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab
wounds to the chest.

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC,
CNN, or ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended
her home, and herself......against two A-hole, illegal immigrants.......and
she wins, she is still alive.

Now that is Gun Control !

Fousto, I will just say this. While this is a good story, lets not overlook the thousands of kids killed or maimed with guns who didn't know what they were doing but still had access to the weapons. If one is to have guns in every house, it would be nice if the people living in that house were gun aware and didn't use them recklessly? I would like to see the press release of this attack from the local paper.

[Easy Drifter]

30,000 plus members on the forum and 46 total votes in the poll!
Something is a little scewered here.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifter....if you had active members, I suspect it is around 100 to 150. Not all of em go to Chit Chat either...

[Magnus]

I am against. :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Magnus...I would be shocked if you were for. Never met anyone from Scandinavia who approves...

[555-04Q2]

But I'm typing this from my cell! :p :

:laugh: ROTFLMFAO :laugh:

[Garry Walker]

now this is the way things get done properly


Shooting in Butte , Montana
Shotgun preteen vs. illegal alien Home Invaders:
Butte, Montana November 5, 2008

Two illegal aliens, Ralphel Resindez, 23, and Enrico Garza, 26, probably
believed they would easily overpower home-alone 11 year old Patricia
Harrington after her father had left their two-story home.

It seems the two crooks never learned two things: they were in
Montana
and Patricia had been a clay shooting champion since she was nine.

Patricia was in her upstairs room when the two men broke through the
front door of the house. She quickly ran to her father's room and grabbed
his 12 gauge Mossberg 500 shotgun.

Resindez was the first to get up to the second floor only to be the
first
to catch a near point blank blast of buckshot from the 11-year-old's knee
crouch aim .. He suffered fatal wounds to his abdomen and genitals.

When Garza ran to the foot of the stairs, he took a blast to the left
shoulder and staggered out into the street where he bled to death before
medical help could arrive.

It was found out later that Resindez was armed with a stolen 45
caliber handgun he took from another home invasion robbery. That
victim, 50-year-old David Burien, was not so lucky. He died from stab
wounds to the chest.

Ever wonder why good stuff never makes NBC, CBS, PBS, MSNBC,
CNN, or ABC news........an 11 year old girl, properly trained, defended
her home, and herself......against two A-hole, illegal immigrants.......and
she wins, she is still alive.

Now that is Gun Control !

good that the criminals got the deserved punishment :up:
What a brave girl

[Magnus]

Magnus...I would be shocked if you were for. Never met anyone from Scandinavia who approves...

Guess youre right; we are a bit lame in that sence :)
An even more difficult question is the one regarding eutanasia, or what ever its called; the right to end your own life in advance due to sever pain or illness.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Guess youre right; we are a bit lame in that sence :)
An even more difficult question is the one regarding eutanasia, or what ever its called; the right to end your own life in advance due to sever pain or illness.

I don't think it is lame to want to preserve human life. I suppose where I wouldn't make a good Scandnavian is I do see some value in some old fashioned Old Testement justice and I can understand the desire and need for Capital Punishment. I just want the justice system of most nations to be a little more right in getting the right guy.

As for euthanazia, I can be for or against it really...in that I can argue it either way. I am a believer in preserving human life, but I can understand the argument for not suffereing either.

[AAReagles]

Post #136

… your conversation just got weak.

…. Genuine punishment ?… Your conversation is also weak.

Post #137

Wow, you've really won me over with your extremely strong argument there.

post #138

Clearly you have a bit of a problem with people disagreeing with your opinion. And with the concept of irony...


As expected, your responses were predictable... and what I consider to be appropriate. As I didn't care for that either, when I first heard it. - "your conversation is weak". That's a common expression (or wisdom) used with the jail-house mentality/philosphy, amongst over notable forms of social grace - including but not limited to complete disregard for the law, as well as constant disrespect for women and children.

My sincerest apologies gentlemen for the deliberate staging of a breach of social etiquette, but after reading;

"...Criminals who pose a danger to society should be locked away indefinitely, in humane conditions..."

... "prison is clearly still a genuine punishment.."

...it occured to me that it might have been forgotten just exactly who it is we're talking about.

Maybe in Europe the prisons are operated under stricter guidelines for murderers, but over here access to computers/books/mail, not to mention conjugal visits and at one time in some places, weekend furloughs, doesn't exactly portray 'genuine punishment.'

On the notion of 'humane conditions', that's not a problem here in California at least, whereas inmates have better health care than most taxpaying citizens. Yes, during an appeals process, (that is waaay to long in my opinion & in former Pres., Clinton's opinion - also a CP advocate) and during thier time in prison they should get health care. But not anything more than what the commoner can get for their health insurance or lack there of nowadays.

As far as the hypothetical situation of Hitler facing CP, well that's one guy there that would definetly have to go. I could think of 6 million reasons to put him down, and that's just counting the Jews who perished under his agenda of "The Final Solution." Not to mention the fact that Hitler took a flamethrower to most of Europe - despite the possibility as to whether or not he actually used his own hands in the atrocities he was dedicated to.

Here in Fresno, Calif., another guy who was convicted of multiple murders he orchestrated on his own family without using his own hands, was a fellow by the name of Marcus Wesson. He of course received the death penalty. As Fresno Police Chief Jerry Dyer stated to the media - "If this doesn't qualify for the death sentence, then there's no other case that would."

The sense of justice is varied by culture (geographical location) I suppose, nevertheless one thing that can't be denied is that as long as criminals such as these are alive and healthy, they are still a viable threat.

So, however much irony or sarcasism I included in my posts, I can assure you I meant what I said - either execute them or relocate them to a desolate area since they were the ones who not disrespected society but themselves as well.

[Eki]

For those who are for capital punishment: Should a society/culture also have the right to decide what crimes are heinous enough to be punished by death?I've heard rumors that Iran for example has death penalty for homosexuality (don't know if it's true though). I don't agree with that, but I understand that many Iranians might.

[AAReagles]

Rehabilitation is bull. It simply does not work .


I think that is true for many criminals. Not all.

You're right, not all criminals are throw-aways, as in the case of former Black Panther Warren Kimbro, who after serving time for killing another member who was falsley accused of being a "snitch", and served his sentence led a program for ex-cons to adjust to the real world once they got out.

I don't have a problem with his circumstances of killing, because it was crime on crime.

Though don't put too much trust in ex-cons, otherwise one could end up like the couple, Thomas & Jackie Hawks in Newport Beach, Calif., who allowed 3 guys onto their boat, only to end up being tied to an anchor while alive and thrown into the ocean. Mr. Hawks, btw, did believe in "rehabilitation", according to his son.

[Mark in Oshawa]

For those who are for capital punishment: Should a society/culture also have the right to decide what crimes are heinous enough to be punished by death?I've heard rumors that Iran for example has death penalty for homosexuality (don't know if it's true though). I don't agree with that, but I understand that many Iranians might.

A country writes laws for its citizens. If the country is a true democratic nation with protection of unlawful search and seizure, a criminal justice system based on innocence until proven guilty ( most modern democracies ), and a rigourous human rights code that protects all law abiding citizens with guarntee's of fair trials, then yes, they should deterimine what crimes are capital offences, and while many of us may not like it, at least the choices the choices make sense to that citzenry.

Where a country like Iran falls down is they are barely a democracy (I don't believe anyone but the "approved" Islamic candidates can run), has no modern rules of jurisprudence and fair trials, and human rights are something they only bring up when accusing other nations of violating them.

I think capital offences should be restricted to pre-medidated murder, severe and repeated crimes against children ( again, very heinous and special provisions to define the crime that are clear ) and very special cases of treason and/or rape. Even then, I would want a really big definition done on what would be in these categories. Most modern democratic nations where Capital Punishment is on the books usually are very narrow on the focus of the crimes, and that is acceptable. I still don't agree only because of the ineptitudes often of the system to ensure the accused actually is guilty EVERY time, but I cant say I blame supporters of Capital Punishment. I cant criticize a modern democratic nation for having it on the books either.

[555-04Q2]

For those who are for capital punishment: Should a society/culture also have the right to decide what crimes are heinous enough to be punished by death?I've heard rumors that Iran for example has death penalty for homosexuality (don't know if it's true though). I don't agree with that, but I understand that many Iranians might.

You take a life, you lose your life.

The person killed doesnt have the luxury of living their life to its natural end and spend time with their family, so why should the offender get to see another sunrise or sunset or get visitations while they are prison? Hang em!

[Garry Walker]

You take a life, you lose your life.

The person killed doesnt have the luxury of living their life to its natural end and spend time with their family, so why should the offender get to see another sunrise or sunset or get visitations while they are prison? Hang em!

Indeed.
But the human rights activists will cry that you should respect the murderers human rights. Idiots.

[555-04Q2]

Indeed.
But the human rights activists will cry that you should respect the murderers human rights. Idiots.

True, I am of the opinion you lose your "human rights" after taking someone else's life.

Unfortunately, bleeding hearts will always cry foul :(

[Eki]

True, I am of the opinion you lose your "human rights" after taking someone else's life.

So, you see no irony in that? According to that logic, if you take the life of a murderer, you also lose your "human rights" and you actually aren't much better human being than him. If the murderer's friends and relatives also revenged the death of the murderer after the execution, when would the circle of killings end?

[555-04Q2]

So, you see no irony in that? According to that logic, if you take the life of a murderer, you also lose your "human rights" and you actually aren't much better human being than him. If the murderer's friends and relatives also revenged the death of the murderer after the execution, when would the circle of killings end?

This is one of the ( add defamatory word ) posts I have ever read :(

Thats like saying the lawyer who sends a murderer to jail for life should go to jail for life too. And the lawyer that sent the other lawyer to jail should go to jail as well. And the lawyer...

[Zico]

For.. but only for the extreme cases and with irrefutable evidence.

With the lesser extreme cases they'd be automatically enrolled on a medical test programme to benefit the human race... and to save the monkeys. ;)

Next tier down.. chain gangs.

Rapists- castration

Jail simply isnt a deterent like it should be. I find it galling that my taxes are used to keep inhuman scum alive in near holiday camp conditions. The way I see it is.. these scum gave up their human rights by their inhuman actions and should be treated below even animals.

The morality stance is an interesting one and right in principle but how can whats morally right be applied to sub human psychopaths? (genuine question) Or is it better to at least portray the image of a morally upright judicial law system and government full of corrupt & parasitical lawyers and fatcat politicians?

I dont really get it, I'd like to understand the moral reasons for those against if someone would explain it to me. To explain... I was brought up in a religous system untill I was 18, it was supposedly based on christianity while the lawmakers, or rather the hierarchies interpretation of moral right and wrongs were re-warped and the deemed apropriate punishment applied discriminately when it suited them and the situation depending on who the perpetrators were and/or their relationship to anyone within the hierarchy... a fairly apt description of the judicial system also?

[AAReagles]

A country writes laws for its citizens. If the country is a true democratic nation with protection of unlawful search and seizure, a criminal justice system based on innocence until proven guilty ( most modern democracies ), and a rigourous human rights code that protects all law abiding citizens with guarntee's of fair trials, then yes, they should deterimine what crimes are capital offences, and while many of us may not like it, at least the choices the choices make sense to that citzenry.


I think capital offences should be restricted to pre-medidated murder, severe and repeated crimes against children ( again, very heinous and special provisions to define the crime that are clear ) and very special cases of treason and/or rape. Even then, I would want a really big definition done on what would be in these categories. Most modern democratic nations where Capital Punishment is on the books usually are very narrow on the focus of the crimes, and that is acceptable. I still don't agree only because of the ineptitudes often of the system to ensure the accused actually is guilty EVERY time, but I cant say I blame supporters of Capital Punishment. I cant criticize a modern democratic nation for having it on the books either.



Once again Mark, you provided another well rounded post. I further have to say (IMO) that I think you probably have the best handle on this subject. As you not only point out the caution of the possibility of executing someone innocent, but for someone against CP you at least recognize the importance pertaining to the will of the people in a democracy where CP is included in law.

I have to agree that not only is it important to prevent someone from being falsely condemn, but that CP sentences shouldn’t be handed out like little gold-stars for performance measures at school/work.

As you might imagine, for those of us who live in or near crime infested areas, it’s not easy to maintain much regards for those proved to be guilty, especially when the convicted has a criminal history of violence. As a friend of mine once expressed in an old saying that they have in Mexico;

“El caballo no era brisco, la vida lo eso” – ‘The horse was not callous, life (experiences) made him that way.’

The same expression can be said for those who grew up as kids within inner-city war zones, though I still hold them accountable when they commit crimes against the general, law-biding public. Crime on crime, is no less a tragedy, but for myself I just don’t identify it as severe enough – neither does society for the most part.

As much as people here in the states argue for or against, it’s too bad that they don’t utilize their energies more towards crime prevention methods. Or perhaps at the very least, some offering of hope and opportunities. As Father Greg Boyle has said time and again, and what is the slogan of his gang intervention program, Homeboy Industries - “Nothing stops a bullet like a job.”


Then there are those that I would have to add to what criteria was mentioned earlier of those who should qualify for CP:

Arsonists. Perhaps the most destructive of all, when one considers the widespread damage they commit, let alone a casualty count. Homes lost, places of employment destroyed; both combining for further strains on charitable/emergency/gov't relief resources. Not to mention an unnecessary reduction of water supplies here in Calif., where severe droughts occur frequently.

Human traffickers who deliberately put their “cargo” at risk while fleeing from the law or abandoning them in completely unsurvivable conditions while in isolated areas during times of extreme climate. In 2003, somewhere in south Texas a truck driver (for whatever reason) left about 70 illegal immigrants trapped inside his trailer in searing heat, causing 19 of them to perish from dehydration, overheating and suffocation.

Drug kingpins. No explanation required.

[AAReagles]

For.. but only for the extreme cases and with irrefutable evidence…. Jail simply isnt a deterent like it should be….

The morality stance is an interesting one and right in principle but how can whats morally right be applied to sub human psychopaths?…

… I'd like to understand the moral reasons for those against if someone would explain it to me. To explain... I was brought up in a religous system untill I was 18, it was supposedly based on christianity while the lawmakers, or rather the hierarchies interpretation of moral right and wrongs were re-warped and the deemed apropriate punishment applied discriminately when it suited them and the situation depending on who the perpetrators were and/or their relationship to anyone within the hierarchy... a fairly apt description of the judicial system also? .


I wasn’t raised to follow any religion, though I instinctively believe in God, perhaps due to references of Him from time to time when I was little. Based on what one of my grandmother’s discussions would be, and discovering NDEs years ago in a book that talk-show host Phil Donahue wrote – “The Human Animal”- I have come to the conclusion that despite what anyone believes, we’re here in life to help others, if & when possible.

Which is why to some degree I can dig where some CP opponents are coming from. Subsequently I have some mixed feelings on this as well:

Post #100


Without speaking on behalf of others here who are in favor of CP, I will clearly state that with my convictions on such a subject I am indeed morally wrong, and without offending anyone's personal beliefs, I am spiritually wrong as well.

I also know that I am a barbarian because of my views on CP. I can accept such a title, just as much as I can accept the fact that we live in an imperfect world full of hostility and violence... since the beginning of time. .

However, just because I admit for myself that I’m wrong morally as well as spiritually on my support of CP, it doesn’t mean that I’m willing to compromise the safety and welfare of my daughter, myself, other relatives, friends, neighbors and any other law-bidding folks.

As time passes, things change. Lawmakers become negligent by the influence of lobbyists. Senate bills with hidden agendas get passed. Parole boards get sloppy. Sentences get commuted. And people who shouldn’t be outside prison walls, are out again, committing more crimes - Kenneth Allen McDuff is a prime example; not only was his death sentence commuted to life without parole, but due to prison overcrowding he was released… and as you might have already guessed, went on a killing spree again. Until he was caught, tried and finally executed.

My advocacy for CP was cemented years before, in 1994, when I watched hi-lites of the Polly Klass murder trial, in which Richard Allen Davis was convicted of killing the 12-year old. While being read the verdict Mr. Davis found it upon his integrity to not only flip off people in court who were present, but also went as far as claiming that Polly’s final words were “just don’t do me like my daddy”, implying that her father had molested her.

Afterwards as some understandable outbursts finally settled inside the court, judge Thoma C. Hastings concluded the trial saying “Mr. Davis, this is always a traumatic and emotional decision for a judge. You made it very easy today by your conduct.” Since then I’ve realized that as long as the world has people in it who are willing to think up and exercise their evils, there will always be a reason for CP.

Another good example is the story of Mia Behren. A miracle of a person who survived her horrendous ordeal of being abused as a toddler and avoided becoming another “throw-away” child, thru loving adoptive parents and dedicated child psychiatrists. She also survived because her little 1-year-old sister’s life was silenced by the same man who abused them extensively- their father. Below is her story. It’s an inspiration of how the human spirit can overcome such tragedy. Yet in the documented early stages of recovery, it is also a example of the potential damage done to a child. Additional financial burdens inflicted on society, just because some low-intelligent life form could not identify himself in co-existing in society.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kd3C1ZWr_0c


A society that, when court evidence has proven beyond any reasonable doubt, should not bear any responsibility for men (and women) who commit such atrocities.

Fiat Justitia – (Latin; “Let justice be done.&#8221 ;)

[steve_spackman]

Capital punishment does nothing apart from satisfy the bibical need for revenge

A religious ritual, a purification rite. A modern sacrament

[AAReagles]

Capital punishment does nothing apart from satisfy the bibical need for revenge

A religious ritual, a purification rite. A modern sacrament

For those who hold those views I suppose...

[steve_spackman]

For those who hold those views I suppose...

The bible is full of violence, retribution and revenge and right wing conservative christians support it, so in a way yes captial punishment is a religious ritual.....supported by the same christians whom are against abortion until the fetus is of military age. Live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Spackman...not sure if you get this or not...but Christians don't believe anyone should die. Most are only in favour of volunteers for the Army. It is however really a bad thing if you really think long and hard about it to kill a baby not yet born, and while I may support abortion being available, I still think it is wrong and your typical left-wing rant shows the same lack of logic most of them do. I am not a born again bible thumper, but on abortion they are right in my opinion, and on the death penalty they are wrong, but I cant disagree with the idea that some some shouldn't be alive to breathe air, it is just I don't trust the criminal justice system to get it right.

I cant disagree with the idea that some some shouldn't be alive to breathe air, it is just I don't trust the criminal justice system to get it right.

Exactly my reasons for being against the death penalty.

Stefan Kiszko.

http://www.innocent.org.uk/cases/stefankiszko/index.html

The poor bloke would have been killed had the death penalty been in place, all because of some scum cops.

As it was, the ordeal killed him anyway.....and his poor mum.

The day when I can trust a copper not to be bent will be the day I agree with the death penalty.

Except for bent coppers. They should be executed before nightfall.

[steve_spackman]

Spackman...not sure if you get this or not...but Christians don't believe anyone should die. Most are only in favour of volunteers for the Army. It is however really a bad thing if you really think long and hard about it to kill a baby not yet born, and while I may support abortion being available, I still think it is wrong and your typical left-wing rant shows the same lack of logic most of them do.


typical left-wing rant??

but Christians don't believe anyone should die..really i would disagree with you there Oshawa. Explain all the wars that have been fought in the name of christ?

[Firstgear]

.....so, what part of "Thou shalt NOT kill" are you having trouble with?

[steve_spackman]

.....so, what part of "Thou shalt NOT kill" are you having trouble with?

I have no trouble with any of it..The people who kill in gods name seem to have a problem with it.

[Garry Walker]

The bible is full of violence, retribution and revenge and right wing conservative christians support it, so in a way yes captial punishment is a religious ritual.....supported by the same christians whom are against abortion until the fetus is of military age. Live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers.

I am not christian, in fact I despise everything that has to do with religion, but I fully support Death Penalty.

[Mark in Oshawa]

typical left-wing rant??

but Christians don't believe anyone should die..really i would disagree with you there Oshawa. Explain all the wars that have been fought in the name of christ?


Listen, wars fought on the pretext of religion are legendary, but the reality the most inhumane brutal regimes had no religious guidance at all. Religion doesn't start or end wars, it is a strawman to hide behind when barbarians are at the gates.

Your snide shot at the Christian right ignores my point all together. They are against abortion because THAT in their eyes (and in mine too) is wrong. I am not so strict about it that I would outlaw it, I realize it is a far more complicated issue, but I wont knock them for believing that it is very wrong to make a baby in the womb die for the stupidity of the adults who didn't use birth control or use their brains.

As for the Death Penalty, I am against it, but it has little to do with any love of the criminal, but rather in the fact I have little or no faith in mankind to not end up convicting and killing someone who may be innocent.

You simplify too many arguments Steve...

[AAReagles]

The bible is full of violence, retribution and revenge and right wing conservative christians support it, so in a way yes captial punishment is a religious ritual.....supported by the same christians whom are against abortion until the fetus is of military age. Live babies so they can raise them to be dead soldiers.

I can relate to your disapproval of how religion is misappropriated to satisfy other’s stern agendas, as I have myself encountered from time to time the ideology of holy-than-thou types, who were to say the least, intensely persistent to spread and impose their beliefs.

However there are those who relate to their faith without the fire and brimstone mythology, such as was the case with my grandmother of whom I mentioned earlier. As she was one who believed in the love of God, not fear of God. I realize that your statements were perhaps not in regards towards her or others like her , nevertheless I felt that some sort of clarification was necessary just in case.

As someone who’s ancestry consists of being Irish, I am unfortunately well aware of how religion can be misconstrued to unnecessary extremes and result in unacceptable assertions of violence.

Which is why, for a lack of a better expression, I am not a church-goer, as I consider myself as a nondenominational follower of faith. As I merely function on the guidelines of the ‘Golden Rule’ – of treating others as to how I would wish to be negotiated.

With consideration towards those who are dedicated in a peaceful religious assembly and/or hold genuine faith and love towards God and fellow bothers and sisters, I am compelled to state that religion, when used inappropriately, is not the only source for violence throughout the world. It is merely an instrument, one of many that man chooses to manipulate himself with others to achieve less than desirable objectives.

Other causes for considerations of conquests and destruction include, but are not limited to; xenophobia, racial intolerance, tribal/ethnic differences, social injustices, economic hardships, lack of resources for respective populations – leading to desired ambitions of expansionism as a result. And of course there is ideology itself.

Just as CP, abortion, and of course religion can be harvested as topics of debate, so too can the noble notions of freedom and human rights find themselves as contrarian. Why is that? Because as with most other things in this world created and maintained by man, they are subject to flaws.

Egalitarian concepts and commitments are easily, if not quickly altered, or eliminated altogether once a sudden and drastic crisis is presented upon a nation (or society); as American comedian George Carlin mentioned during one of his final performances before he passed away – “there is no such thing as ‘rights’, there are only privileges. They can be taken away just as quickly as they can be provided. If any of you have doubts about that then ask those Japanese-Americans who were sent to internment-camps such as Manzanar during WWII.”

Yes, there are many instances of right-wing religious oppression and violence. However history has also shown that left-wing “progressive” movements have stained themselves as well with their idealistic passions. Just off the top of my head for here in the states; Symbionese Liberation Army (SLA), the Weathermen, Earth Liberation Front (ELF) and Students for a Democratic Society (SDS) to name a few.

Even the animal rights advocate group, PETA (People for the Ethical Treatment for Animals) lost my support when they made what I consider a serious error in judgment by attempting to use a disgusting photo of a Canadian passenger on a Greyhound bus last year, who fell prey to a murderer who not only disemboweled him, but cut off his head for display before authorities stormed the bus and apprehended him – PETA’s intended slogan to use with that horrible snapshot, which was overwhelmingly criticized worldwide, was “How would you like to end up slaughtered ?”

My point is this - there is plenty of blame to go around for what’s wrong in this world and the level of violence that ails it.

Additionally I have to say this as well; though I am a conservative, it doesn’t mean that I swore an allegiance to conform to Rush Limbaughism nonsense, neither become prejudiced towards others nor that I am stubbornly blind in alliance of eradicating abortion all together, due to various sensitive and sometimes unfortunate circumstances of an impregnated woman (or child) who has a difficult choice to make, much less undesirable medical procedure to follow once that decision has been made.

And when I was a liberal, I didn’t pledge to be a follower of Howard Stern antics, neither be so inclined to burn a flag just to express my freedom while insulting veterans along with other older Americans, nor did I find myself so misguided to conveniently ignore the rights of murdered victims and their surviving families. In fact I became pro-CP while I was a liberal.

[Roamy]

1. cost of one prisoner per year 100,000
2. cost of one 9mm round 1
3. Savings to public compounded priceless

[555-04Q2]

1. cost of one prisoner per year 100,000
2. cost of one 9mm round 1
3. Savings to public compounded priceless

We agree on something for a change :p :

[Roamy]

We agree on something for a change :p :

keep up the good work :p

[V12]

The day when I can trust a copper not to be bent will be the day I agree with the death penalty.

That sums up my viewpoint perfectly. Don't get me wrong in an ideal world rapists, burglars and unprovoked murderers would all be executed, but it's not worth it when we have the possibility of wrong convictions.

However - life should mean life, prisons should be stripped to the bare essentials, no pool or TV rooms or gyms or the like, that'd make room for a few more cells wouldn't it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Said it before..I will say it again. In theory I am all for it...but the way modern criminal justice systems botch and screw up prosecutions, I would hate to be accused and convicted of something I didn't do when the penalty was death. Too many stories out there about crooked cops fabricating and ignoring evidence and too many lawyers botching up the court end of things for my liking...

[AAReagles]

The day when I can trust a copper not to be bent will be the day I agree with the death penalty.


Then of course, as mentioned before, there is the credibility of lawyers, juries, and judges. How fair they present evidence, deliberate on circumstantial evidence, and judge/sentence without prejudice will always be questioned to some degree.

Living in the age of DNA however, where inmates are exonerated on such proof, just as others are convicted on it as well, is not necessarily something that I will dismiss when it’s applied along with other insurmountable evidence consistent with the crime that was committed.

In other words, the day when inmates are contained sufficiently, where there is no probability of escape, committing further mayhem inside prison walls, or outside with the use of cell-phones, as some gang members and death row inmates are able to do (see June 2009 issue of Wired), I might consider changing my mind on CP… maybe. Then again I have some lose-cap relatives to remind me otherwise, of just how some in life can’t seem to find a cure for their acute case of SOS (Strungout-On-Stupid); one of them a ‘banker’ who graduated himself to lifer-status under the 3rd strike offender penalty according to California law, the other a convicted murderer who caught a lucky break to get it busted down to a voluntary manslaughter beef over a drug deal gone bad.

Otherwise it’s off to the ‘Island’ as I suggested before in my “Catch-N-Release” program, or it’s off with their… well, you get the point.

[Roamy]

The day they quit making bullets is the the day when I will waive the death penalty. Matter of fact it is used way too infrequently and takes way too long to implement. We should be able to get rid of these dickheads in most cases within one year of the verdict. But right now Obama wants to give them to you!! Hell you guys take anything!!

[Easy Drifter]

Life in Canada is a misnomer. The maximum is 25 years, unless the person is declared a dangerous offender which is rare. Life should mean life.
Right now I am trying to follow closely a case locally. A very nasty case.
I knew the victim and one of the accused who did a plea bargain and got a pretty light sentence. The murder was in 2005. She got 8 years but with credit for time served before her trial she will be eligible for parole in Feb. Pleaded guilty to far reduced charges and is testifying against the person now on trial.
The person now on trial I know quite well and if he did it he should get the max.
In my mind I have some doubt as to who did what. There is another person I don't know who also did a plea bargain. Both are claiming the one now on trial actually did it. I am pretty sure he was involved but to what extent I am not sure.
The deal the one I know got reminds me of a certain case in which one person did a plea bargain and is generally known in Canada as 'The deal with the Devil'.

[Roamy]

so here is the proper answer: If someone is sentenced to life in prison they the criminals family or someone must pay to keep the ba$tard. In the event they fail to pay the criminal goes to see Dr. Winchester within 90 days.

[Retro Formula 1]

I am really undecided.

I hate the idea of murdering someone but would quite happily murder some people myself.

[slorydn1]

I think capital punishment should be used on anyone who does the following:




PEOPLE WHO TYPE MESSAGES IN THREADS LIKE THIS SHOULD BE HUNG WITH THE NEAREST USB CABLE


Phew, I feel better now :p :

Lighten up everybody....no I didn't say light up :s mokin:

Here, have a cold one :beer: