WRC Starting order leg 2 & 3

[Sulland]

FIA need to do something to the starting order system that is in use today.
As it is today it turns the competition into a farce, and that has to stop !!!

What system do you want to see from the next rally if you could choose ?

[N.O.T]

very nice and fresh question....never heard one like that before....

[Daniel]

Drivers nominate their starting position based on championship standing and then at the end of leg 1 based on their position in the rally. But that would reward the drivers who are doing well too much and rob the ignorants of the fake competition we've seen over the last couple of years and we can't have that :rolleyes:

[BDunnell]

They should start each leg in the order in which they finished the previous one. This was the system for many years, and while it could be unfair on the early runners, it was basically a fair system, and certainly devoid of gimmickry.

[Ghostwalker]

i would like reversed order since the current order penelize the rally leader by unfavourable road position and with reversed order we dont have to watch the ford boys embarrass themselves with stoping on stage to get a better road position.

i never understood why some motorsports branches penelizes those who perform good (starting position in rally, penelty weights in some racing diciplines).

[mjh]

i would like reversed order since the current order penelize the rally leader by unfavourable road position and with reversed order we dont have to watch the ford boys embarrass themselves with stoping on stage to get a better road position.

Citroen have also used the rule when it has been to their advantage - it's just over the past season and a bit it has more often been to Fords advantage. I think all this nonsense about concocting lies about studs coming out is a bit stupid though- but again both works teams have played that game too.

Personally I think leave the rule as is as in theory it should level the field a bit. Why should the guys lower down the field perform road sweeping duties to the fastest cars and scupper their own chances of gaining ground? There are pros and cons to both approaches.

[Brother John]

In order of their position in the rally, after day 1 and after day 2, let the drivers decide themselves on which place they want to start.
That is according to me, very equitable.
Maybe they make the wrong choice, just like them choose their own tyres.
Keep the things simple. ;)

[pino]

Leader of the Rally should always get the best advantage, that's the best way to reward a leader and motivate anyone to reach that position ;)

[crazy]

Starting order should stay as is but points should be awarded after each day. The one with the most points at the end of the rally win.

[Daniel]

They should start each leg in the order in which they finished the previous one. This was the system for many years, and while it could be unfair on the early runners, it was basically a fair system, and certainly devoid of gimmickry.

I think that works when you've got half a dozen people fighting like crazy for the win. When it's like that there's no way people will lose a minute or something, but with the way it is today.....

[Lousada]

I think they should use a wheel of fortune like in the BTCC. I'm sure, it would make some nice live-tv :rolleyes:



Maybe they make the wrong choice, just like them choose their own tyres.
Keep the things simple. ;)

But they don't choose their own tyres, seeing as it's a control tyre.

[Wim_Impreza]

My decision would be that the top 15 after each day starts in reserve order the next day. The system what Brother John said is also good for me.

[Daniel]

I think they should use a wheel of fortune like in the BTCC. I'm sure, it would make some nice live-tv :rolleyes:

Yes I liked that :) Definitely the mark of a dying series :)

[Sulland]

This thread is still very current.
Makes a mockery of WRC, and the best drivers in the world have to brake to not lead the rally - stupid !

Why is the system not changed, what are the reasons from FIA to keep it as it is ?

[A.F.F.]

This thread is still very current.
Makes a mockery of WRC, and the best drivers in the world have to brake to not lead the rally - stupid !

Why is the system not changed, what are the reasons from FIA to keep it as it is ?


F1.

But don't worry. The day F1 will change the starting order for each leg, WRC will follow. Like always :dozey:

[Priorat]

They should let do one of the recces with the race car and no speed limit or use Dakar trucks as zero cars. This way the roads would be clean on rally day.

[Sulland]

What systems for this have we had during the history of the world championship in rally ?

[A.F.F.]

The thing I don't understand with the good previous system was that how was it unfair to "weaker" drivers? They got to drive the first day in an ideal starting place. Too bad if they couldn't use it properly. But they got in every rally.

Now they get it in every day of every rally and they still can't use it properly.

Hence, that surely can't be the reason.

Heck, we have drivers driving they couldn't perform even if they drove on tarmac while others drive on gravel the same distance ....

[Viking]

I would like the "draw" back, the one that Colin was late at if you remember. Top 6 was it not?...

[JRodrigues]

Leave it as it is. In every way possible to imagine, there's always someone that's going to loose. Imagine that there was a revers order. Mikko opened the road yesterday, and would have opened the road today. Is that fair for the championship leader as well? No.
In wet gravel roads, it's better to start first, as well as in Sweden where the later ones pass on gravel and destroy their tires.
There's always someone who's going to loose time. Today, Loeb had the push himself so he could build an enough gap for tomorrow, so that Petter can't catch him, since it's him the first on the road. LEAVE IT AS IT IS.

[Ghostwalker]

reversed order from the first stage on leg 1.

[Sulland]

This year 10 cars are getting points and are fighting for them. So maybe swap the 15 first, and by that have 5 sweepers before the pointscorers comes ?

[Sulland]

The Jordan farce will probably make FIA address this issue.

Will the qual idea fix this, or are there better ways ?

[amilk]

reversed order from the first stage on leg 1.

Simple reverse order not OK, just increase the distance after frist leg

[Ghostwalker]

Simple reverse order not OK, just increase the distance after first leg

why isn't it ok with reversed order all three legs?

The difference between 1st and 2nd position on day one is much bigger then the difference between the 2nd last and last position on
leg 2 and 3.
Lets say that a driver leads the championship with 6 points before the final rally of the season and that this driver have to sweep the roads on day 1.
Then it will be a huge disadvantage for the championship leader while the 2nd placed driver will have an advantage.

Increase the distance for leg 2 and 3 wont do much difference if the road position advantage/disadvantage on leg2 and 3 is very small compared to leg 1.

[ProRally]

My decision would be that the top 15 after each day starts in reserve order the next day. The system what Brother John said is also good for me.

Similar, but top 10 is ok now... otherwise Gr N is starting first :D these days.

[ZequeArgentina]

Drivers choice, first in championship chooses position, and same on following legs.
First 10 are able to choose positions, the rest, no choice.
Superrally drivers: no choice, just what it is assigned.

To additionally reduce the sweeping effect: Having a guest drivers in a god car as 0 or 00 car could also help: I am imagining the likes of Sainz, Kankkunen, etc in interesting 4x4 powerfull cars, at least in ralies where sweeping is a real disadvantage. It could also bring spectacle, but cost some $$ (PAY THOSE DRIVERS HAVE AN INTERESTING 4X4 SWEEPING). Imagine Kankkunen opoening New Zealand in An Audi Group B

[bluuford]

I just got an interseting idea. if they want to make championship more equal and dont want winner to run away then.. every day the driver who has the most points will start first on the road. That means if Loeb is leader, then he is always first on the road. day1, day2 day3. And now it is the same for everyone. if you want to win then you have to be able to run first on the road. maybe sometimes there is rain and you are lucky and maybe sometimes there is tarmac where you have advantage:-) Then they make sure that no one runs away in championship and there wont be too much tactics.

[koko0703]

I think the top 3 of the leg 1 & 2 should get 4-2-1 points. The winner of the rally is still the leader at the end of leg 3 as it is now. But for a season, leading the rally at the end of each day will have something to gain by awarding points at the end of each leg.

[AndyRAC]

But the Championship is not meant to be equal, if one driver is better: TOUGH! Get on with it. All this rubbish about trying to make it interesting is wrong. It's up to the others to get better - not 'handicapping' the best driver. This meant to be a serious World Championship!

[amilk]

why isn't it ok with reversed order all three legs?

The difference between 1st and 2nd position on day one is much bigger then the difference between the 2nd last and last position on
leg 2 and 3.
Lets say that a driver leads the championship with 6 points before the final rally of the season and that this driver have to sweep the roads on day 1.
Then it will be a huge disadvantage for the championship leader while the 2nd placed driver will have an advantage.

Increase the distance for leg 2 and 3 wont do much difference if the road position advantage/disadvantage on leg2 and 3 is very small compared to leg 1.

Example: After frist leg private driver XY will be 10th and he will start in position 1st in 2nd leg - nice, he will clean the road and he will have no chances to beat driver XZ who was 9th on first leg and starting 2nd on leg 2 and so on........ This rule very match penalise the upcoming drivers in positions 5-10 and it will be even more difficult to them to play with the big guys.

[Rallyper]

I just got an interseting idea. if they want to make championship more equal and dont want winner to run away then.. every day the driver who has the most points will start first on the road. That means if Loeb is leader, then he is always first on the road. day1, day2 day3. And now it is the same for everyone. if you want to win then you have to be able to run first on the road. maybe sometimes there is rain and you are lucky and maybe sometimes there is tarmac where you have advantage:-) Then they make sure that no one runs away in championship and there wont be too much tactics.

Bluuford/ You always have the solutions. This one´s brilliant!

If not you could always let PWRC and SWRC start before WRC in opposite order and there you have another solution. And besides you also keep up the excitement for the public on every stage a bit longer.... ;)

[bluuford]

But the Championship is not meant to be equal, if one driver is better: TOUGH! Get on with it. All this rubbish about trying to make it interesting is wrong. It's up to the others to get better - not 'handicapping' the best driver. This meant to be a serious World Championship!

I think you are very wrong here. When one driver is better then he should win anyway, even if he has to drive first on the road because he is leading. I think it is a pretty good idea. Everybody who wants to win has to experience that feeling (being first on the road). And young drivers can practice with easier conditions. This sport has no future that is not favoring up and coming talents (young drivers). Seriously, every time I am thinking about this idea, it sounds better and better. Yes they can use penalties, but then they loose a lot of time anyway and risk with not catching up.

[serial jeff]

I just got an interseting idea. if they want to make championship more equal and dont want winner to run away then.. every day the driver who has the most points will start first on the road. That means if Loeb is leader, then he is always first on the road. day1, day2 day3. And now it is the same for everyone. if you want to win then you have to be able to run first on the road. maybe sometimes there is rain and you are lucky and maybe sometimes there is tarmac where you have advantage:-) Then they make sure that no one runs away in championship and there wont be too much tactics.

Could work, but what if we had a situation like last year in Wales? Mikko was leading by 1 point but then he'd have to start in front of Seb all three days. Maybe not too bad in Wales, but if it's a dry rally that ends the season (Abu Dhabi?) then he may as well throw in the towel before it even starts.

As JRodrigues said, in any system somebody is going to get shafted. Still, I think I like the idea of the drivers picking their start position, starting with the fastest driver of the previous day (or shakedown for the first day). That way there would never be a big advantage between competing drivers... if the leader picked 4th, second place could pick 5th and third could pick 3rd, etc.

[bluuford]

Then you just have to finish the season in GB and leader has even advantage!
And one more thing, they should change the rule related to the arrive early to TC. Drivers still get penalty but then they just have to wait until their initial target time. No problems with lateness. Drivers can risk loosing 30 sek to get behing their rival, but the it will be very risky and it lasts only for one day. It would be another interesting factor.. is the driver able to gain 30 sek in one day?

Using SWRC and PWRC as a first cars is not that good idea. These cars still take very different lines due to their lower power and also due to the fact that they are more fragile and they often will not survive such lines :)

[Hartusvuori]

Mikko Hirvonen wrote about the road position thing in his latest blog entry at MTV3's internet page. He mentioned that he, Loeb, Sordo, Latvala and P. Solberg discussed the matter on several occasions during Rally Jordania, exchaning ideas how it could be solved.

According to Hirvonen they (drivers) have a similar goal, they wrote down their ideas and passed it on to FIA. To solve this problem, they'd like to have Day 2 & Day 3 road positions decided so, that who ever leads the rally after Day 1 or Day 2 gets to decide first his road position for the next day. First 10 or 15 positions would be decided like this. For Day 1, road positions would be decided at shakedown qualification. Shakedown qualification would be ran in current championship order with 1 min intervals.

According to Hirvonen drivers have given FIA enough pressure that they should address this problem, and drivers hope rules would be changed for next round, Rally Turkey, already.

http://blogit.mtv3.fi/kaasujalka/2010/04/ (Finnish)

[RS]

I really applaud that Mikko and JML are looking to change this system too but I don't think they are going to get the support of their team boss and it's pretty obvious why.

They are going to have to start driving faster or Malcolm is going to have to make them a faster car!

[Sulland]

The teams has received a fax from FIA where they are addressing the issue by saying that people checking in to early, will not get any influence on starting order, as today.

That is a band-aid, but not solving the real issue in my opinion - but it is something.

[jaytee10375]

i would like reversed order since the current order penelize the rally leader by unfavourable road position and with reversed order we dont have to watch the ford boys embarrass themselves with stoping on stage to get a better road position.

i never understood why some motorsports branches penelizes those who perform good (starting position in rally, penelty weights in some racing diciplines).

The Ford boys...did you happen to watch any of the Jordan rally last week?

I'm not defending Ford in any way,and I know they were far from being angels with their final leg tactics last week,but it was Citroen who dealt the first card and put Ogier out as road sweeper!

We'll have to see what our newly elected Mr. Todt has to say in the long run.
I can't imagine him taking sides with a certain manufacturer....can any of you? :rolleyes:

[Langdale Forest]

I think that the championship leader should be 1st on the road on all 3 days of the rally, that gives other drivers a chance at the win.

Although there is no perfect soultion.

[crazy]

The Ford boys...did you happen to watch any of the Jordan rally last week?

I'm not defending Ford in any way,and I know they were far from being angels with their final leg tactics last week,but it was Citroen who dealt the first card and put Ogier out as road sweeper!
Am I missing something ? AFAIK citroen only put Ogier as a road cleaner after ford decided to place Hirvonen in front of Latvala.

[OldF]

I think that the championship leader should be 1st on the road on all 3 days of the rally, that gives other drivers a chance at the win.

Although there is no perfect soultion.

That would at least prove that’s he’s the best driver (Seb) if he can keep the lead.

And as you said, there isn’t a perfect solution.

[Langdale Forest]

I think all the drivers in each class of car should be put into a hat and picked out randomley, the order staying the same for all the 3 days unless there is retirements.

If I was in charge of the WRC, that's what I would do because it means that things will be more interesting. :)

[jonkka]

Well...


I think that the championship leader should be 1st on the road on all 3 days of the rally, that gives other drivers a chance at the win.

So clever driver would make sure he'd be within a striking distance from the championship leader going into final round. And when championship leader would suffer from his road position, clever driver would win the title.


I think all the drivers in each class of car should be put into a hat and picked out randomley, the order staying the same for all the 3 days unless there is retirements.

Why not skip the driving altogether and draw the rally classification from that hat as well? Would save enormous amounts of money and effort.

[cosmicpanda]

To additionally reduce the sweeping effect: Having a guest drivers in a god car as 0 or 00 car could also help: I am imagining the likes of Sainz, Kankkunen, etc in interesting 4x4 powerfull cars, at least in ralies where sweeping is a real disadvantage. It could also bring spectacle, but cost some $$ (PAY THOSE DRIVERS HAVE AN INTERESTING 4X4 SWEEPING). Imagine Kankkunen opoening New Zealand in An Audi Group B

http://zodiblog.files.wordpress.com/2009/11/papamobile.jpg

;)


I actually think (god car aside) that this is the best idea. After two or three safety cars, have (say) five sweeper cars driven by guest drivers, paid for and driving cars provided by the teams. Hell, this could even be used as a way to encourage up-and-coming drivers that the teams want to give experience but not a full drive.

[awake27]

No intention to change the current start order says Jean Todt. What else have to happen to change that rule? :rolleyes:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83976

[Sulland]

We have discussed this issue a few times before. Why does FIA not Fix this ?

[OldF]

The organiser should pick a random stage where none of the top drivers didn’t have any trouble and that would be the start order for the next day.

Or should there be about ten road sweepers (RWD national cars).

[A.F.F.]

We have discussed this issue a few times before. Why does FIA not Fix this ?

Because FIA lives on negative feedback.

[tfp]

We'll have to see what our newly elected Mr. Todt has to say in the long run.
I can't imagine him taking sides with a certain manufacturer....can any of you? :rolleyes: [/QUOTE]

I never thought of that...
They should put a Finn in joint charge aswel to even things out :D

The trouble is with the running order is there is never a perfect way of doing it.
I know the FIA can never eliminate team orders altogethor, I just dont like it when drivers purposely slow down at the end of the last stage of that leg, just because they are frightened of running first on the road the next day.
I got a bit of a shock when I saw Latvala take 3 stage wins, I thought he wouldn't dare push for the lead on this rally, not after 09 :D :D Good for him though!

[ironseb]

Someone can translate conversation between JML and is co-driver at the end of this stage ?


http://vodpod.com/watch/5842761-wrc-rally-portugal-2011-latvala-leads-after-day-one-onboard

[Sulland]

What is the leg 2 starting order based on this year?
Is it

1. Rally 2 drivers
2. Result day 1
3. FIA seeding

Or something else?

[bluuford]

What is the leg 2 starting order based on this year?
Is it

1. Rally 2 drivers
2. Result day 1
3. FIA seeding

Or something else?

Reverse order of P1 and P2 drivers

[Mirek]

Actually not. For example Mikkelsen starts before SWRC and Pajunen and Grondal among SWRC. Although all are without priority.

[bluuford]

Actually not. For example Mikkelsen starts before SWRC and Pajunen and Grondal among SWRC. Although all are without priority.

Yep, Only P1 and P2 are in reverse order. Those who have not P 1 or P2 are not counted. Acoording to FIA regulations, Ogier should not own P2 status?
11.1. FIRST PRIORITY DRIVERS (P1)
Drivers of World rally cars, who are or have been:
11.1.1 Nominated by a registered Manufacturer or WRC Team for the purpose of scoring points for the
FIA World Rally Championship for Manufacturers.
11.1.2 Entered by a Manufacturer or WRC Team but not for scoring points in the Manufacturers’
Championship.
11.1.3 Classified among the first ten in a World Championship Rally during one of the two previous
Championship years or during the current Championship year.
11.2 SECOND PRIORITY DRIVERS (P2)
Drivers of World rally cars who are or have been:
11.2.1 The winner of a support Championship in either of the two previous Championship years.
11.2.2 Proposed by an organiser to the FIA and whose entry is supported by a letter from the drivers’
ASN and whose results justify P2 inclusion.

No word about S2000 or R4

[Mirek]

Ah, sorry, thought it is for P3 also. My bad...

[GigiGalliNo1]

Me no understand

Haha

[DonJippo]

Me no understand

Haha

Tell us something new :)