Bushfires devastate Victoria

[Ranger]

65+ people now confirmed dead in statewide fires triggered by a 45°C (about 115°F) heatwave and 100km/h winds. :(

Some fires were started by arsonists. I hope for their sake they are happy. :mad:

I hope no forumers have been personally affected by this incomprehensible destruction.

[Mark in Oshawa]

From Cameleopard was telling me, this was as bad as it has ever been down there....

[millencolin]

This fire has just exploded. Just last week it seemed like your average run-of-the-mill bushfire. But last night it just went insane! Whole towns have been destroyed, it is just awful!

But there are also still floods in Nrth Qld around Charters Towers, we are stuffed atm. Mother nature can be a cruel beast

[Mark in Oshawa]

Millen, I wish you guys down under some luck with the weather and the fires. As for the flooding in North Queensland, I have heard of THAT being a recurring problem as well. To think us Canadians complain about Winter but it doesn't really do the damage and deaths in the same vicious fashion the fires do....

[Jag_Warrior]

I just got a chance to get some news on this. This is terrible. I wish the best for all, especially any forum members in the area.

I can't even begin to imagine the horror of what is happening, the death toll is rising every hour. My thoughts are with you all in Aust.

[Camelopard]

For those that are interested, there are more postings on this in the brrrrr thread,
http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=130846&page=8

[Easy Drifter]

Local news is now reporting at least 108 dead. Devastating news.
People trapped in their cars trying to escape.

[millencolin]

Its just shocking, rarely do bushfires get this extreme... reports that ex-nine newsreader Brian Naylor has been killed in these fires too...

The loss of human life is just devastating

[Camelopard]

It just keeps getting worse....

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5307913

[leopard]

From Cameleopard was telling me, this was as bad as it has ever been down there....
try to look for the more reliable source ... ;)

[Valve Bounce]

http://www.theage.com.au/

For the time being,
and this: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/

[ShiftingGears]

126 confirmed dead from the fires. I hope that the death toll ceases to keep rising. Condolences to those out there who have lost loved ones.

[millencolin]

This is the worst bushfire i can ever recall, the Canberra ones were no where near as bad as this. I'm still in pure shock about it, i just can't believe a bushfire can cause all this. We are used to bushfires, but this is just beyond anything i can recall

[Rollo]

Some towns in northern Victoria it looks like might survive in name only. The news footage coming out of those places is of entire towns either leveled or charred beyond recognition.

John Brumby was on the ABC this afternoon saying that there's going to be a review of the "stay and defend or leave early" policy but with all due respect I don't honestly see how very much could have been done different as it's not like you can change the weather that led to this.

[Camelopard]

try to look for the more reliable source ... ;)

hmmmmm, this is the thanks I get for trying to help you out :) .

I'll put it down to miscommunication due to language differences.... :)

or maybe next time I just won't bother.......... :)

[leopard]

I was talking to MIO, my understanding is two sources is better than one or hearing from someone, three is better than two, etc. So we will have more comprehensive perspective when giving opinion. It's common rule :)

[Valve Bounce]

I was talking to MIO, my understanding is two sources is better than one or hearing from someone, three is better than two, etc. So we will have more comprehensive perspective when giving opinion. It's common rule :)

If you try Google, you will get a limitless source of supply of information from the Melbourne newspapers.

I have given you two links. I hope that is more than sufficient.

[Camelopard]

I was talking to MIO, my understanding is two sources is better than one or hearing from someone, three is better than two, etc. So we will have more comprehensive perspective when giving opinion. It's common rule :)

Well I guess I'm being just far too sensitive, I'll go off and have a good cry now......... :)

[Hondo]

Some towns in northern Victoria it looks like might survive in name only. The news footage coming out of those places is of entire towns either leveled or charred beyond recognition.

John Brumby was on the ABC this afternoon saying that there's going to be a review of the "stay and defend or leave early" policy but with all due respect I don't honestly see how very much could have been done different as it's not like you can change the weather that led to this.

People here can sympathize with the the "stay and defend or leave early option". Unfortunately, sometimes you don't realize the battle is lost until just before you are overwhelmed.

[slinkster]

I hope they get the people who started these fires. I heard a report on the BBC saying there was rumours of fires being restarted as Fire services were putting them out...? Is that true? It's just awful. I can't comprehend what these people are thinking... :(

[Captain VXR]

So many people have died - over 170 :cry:
And its affecting people around the world:
http://www.driftworks.com/forum/other-news-events/76589-nathan-charlsy-charles-dies-aus-bush-fires.html
Whoever restarted the fire should have no right to life or freedom from pain...

[steve_spackman]

I can't even begin to imagine the horror of what is happening, the death toll is rising every hour. My thoughts are with you all in Aust.

my thoughts are also with everyone who has lost a loved one..

[rah]

Some towns in northern Victoria it looks like might survive in name only. The news footage coming out of those places is of entire towns either leveled or charred beyond recognition.

John Brumby was on the ABC this afternoon saying that there's going to be a review of the "stay and defend or leave early" policy but with all due respect I don't honestly see how very much could have been done different as it's not like you can change the weather that led to this.

Yeah it's damn nasty. I have always followed the policy of leave before the fire. I have been evacuated twice from my previous home and I live close to the bush in my current home. I never thought it was worth the risk of staying. And I have been a member of the RFS so I know fire first hand.

The worst thing is that people are dying because they have lived through fires before, but this time it was very different.

[Easy Drifter]

For once you and I agree Steve.
I have been through areas in Canada where forest fires have gone through and was through Barrie, On. less than a 1/2 hour after the killer Tornado but nothing like this disaster.

[Valve Bounce]

People here can sympathize with the the "stay and defend or leave early option". Unfortunately, sometimes you don't realize the battle is lost until just before you are overwhelmed.

You are so right. There will be a Royal Commission here to consider this policy.

The warnings were there; the hot 45+degrees C and strong north winds, with a late south east wind change without rain. The predictions were that the fires be worst than the Ash Wednesday fires.

I discussed this with my wife, and had we been living anywhere near the forests, I would have booked us into a hotel either in Melbourne or Sydney for a week. If the house is insured, then nothing is more precious than your own lives, especially those with children.

[steve_spackman]

You are so right. There will be a Royal Commission here to consider this policy.

The warnings were there; the hot 45+degrees C and strong north winds, with a late south east wind change without rain. The predictions were that the fires be worst than the Ash Wednesday fires.

I discussed this with my wife, and had we been living anywhere near the forests, I would have booked us into a hotel either in Melbourne or Sydney for a week. If the house is insured, then nothing is more precious than your own lives, especially those with children.

i agree

[NinjaMaster]

This is just a shocking situation and an incredibly sobering reminder of just how fragile life is. It's really hit home for us too as so many of the places that have been destroyed are quite familiar riding areas for us. In fact, we were just in King Lake in December for our riders group Christmas break-up so to see the pizzeria that we head to up there as nothing more than rubble is quite chilling.
Whilst we aren't in the areas of danger, there was a fire started up a boofhead using an angle grinder that claimed houses only a couple of kilometres away and had it not been for the brilliant work of 'Elvis' and the CFA, the story could be a lot worse.
The absolute heroes (as always) are the wonderful firefighting volunteers of the CFA. All those involved in the fighting and rescue deserve a medal. I just pray for cool, calm conditions - especially rain - to see the end of the immediate threat. Then will come time to examine what, if anything, could have been done to prevent such a catastrophe and what response plans could help to prevent such a loss of life ever happening again.

[Valve Bounce]

Then will come time to examine what, if anything, could have been done to prevent such a catastrophe and what response plans could help to prevent such a loss of life ever happening again.

Interesting that you mention it. The cause is the "protection of flora and fauna" brigade. No burning off of the underbrush during the winter was allowed - blame it on the Greenies. Here's the article by David Packham :

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25031389-7583,00.html

If you have the time, it's an interesting read.

I just wonder whether The Greenies have the guts to reply to that article in The Australian.

[mjh]

Interesting that you mention it. The cause is the "protection of flora and fauna" brigade. No burning off of the underbrush during the winter was allowed - blame it on the Greenies. Here's the article by David Packham :

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25031389-7583,00.html

If you have the time, it's an interesting read.

I just wonder whether The Greenies have the guts to reply to that article in The Australian.

Read it. And a number of the more sensible replies. Blame it on the 'greenies' is a vast oversimplification. I prefer to wait and see what the Royal Commission says.

[rah]

Interesting that you mention it. The cause is the "protection of flora and fauna" brigade. No burning off of the underbrush during the winter was allowed - blame it on the Greenies. Here's the article by David Packham :

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25031389-7583,00.html

If you have the time, it's an interesting read.

I just wonder whether The Greenies have the guts to reply to that article in The Australian.

Meh, more blame it on the greenies bollocks. How is it the greenies fault?? Any burnoffs that I have seen delayed in my area are due to weather problems. Most of the decisions on what to burn are made by the NPWS in the area backed up by studies of the ecosystem.

[millencolin]

At the Day Nighter today, over $6million was raised to help the victims of the fire. A lot was contributed by various corporations (to them we should be ever thankful), but the cricketers deserve a big wrap. When they were not batting, or in Peter Siddle's case, being the 12th man, they were wandering around the ground asking for donations! Egos were put aside for a noble cause, hats off to all cricketers who helped today!

[millencolin]

Another noble story I've heard. People in North Queensland, who are currently suffering from pretty serious floods, are turning down aid and support saying it should go to Victoria and help the fire victims. I think this, above anything else, shows the true Aussie spirit! We bend over backwards to help others in need, even the ones in need are helping the needier! Thats just amazing...

[Valve Bounce]

Meh, more blame it on the greenies bollocks. How is it the greenies fault?? Any burnoffs that I have seen delayed in my area are due to weather problems. Most of the decisions on what to burn are made by the NPWS in the area backed up by studies of the ecosystem.

I'm glad you asked; here are the details: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25038717-5018722,00.html

Mr Incoll ( former fire chief) warned that in 2003, green groups were pushing for changes to planning laws that included restrictions on the removal of vegetation, "and worse still, the requirement for planting vegetation around and almost over houses, as part of any planning permit to build a house in the shire of Nillumbik, so it gave the appearance from the outside of being a forest".

Council elections were looming, and planning was a major issue. "The green group carried the day in council and the rules came to pass," he said.

Nillumbik Shire councillors, many of whom were last night attending community meetings across the region, declined to comment. The councillors said it would be inappropriate to speak about a six-year-old report when bushfires were still raging in the area and a royal commission had been announced.

I hope this answers your question. By the way, where do you live?

[Valve Bounce]

............and there's more: http://www.theage.com.au/national/angry-survivors-blame-council-green-policy-20090211-83p0.html

"During question time at a packed community meeting in Arthurs Creek on Melbourne's northern fringe, Warwick Spooner — whose mother Marilyn and brother Damien perished along with their home in the Strathewen blaze — criticised the Nillumbik council for the limitations it placed on residents wanting the council's help or permission to clean up around their properties in preparation for the bushfire season. "We've lost two people in my family because you dickheads won't cut trees down," he said.

Another resident said she had asked the council four times to tend to out-of-control growth on public land near her home, but her pleas had been ignored.

There was widespread applause when Nillumbik Mayor Bo Bendtsen said changes were likely to be made about the council's policy surrounding native vegetation.

But his response was not good enough for Mr Spooner: "It's too late now mate. We've lost families, we've lost people."

[Camelopard]

According to this religious nutter, decrimalising abortion in Victoria brought the fires as punishment.....................

http://www.smh.com.au/national/abortion-laws-allowed-devil-to-destroy-pastor-20090210-83i8.html

Abortion laws allowed devil to destroy: pastor

February 11, 2009[/*:m:2w405irf]THE Catch The Fire Ministries has tried to blame the bushfires disaster on laws decriminalising abortion in Victoria, which it says make Australians an "open target for the devil to destroy".
The Pentecostal church's leader, Danny Nalliah, claims he had a dream about raging fires on October 21 and that he woke with "a flash from the spirit of God: that His conditional protection has been removed from the nation of Australia, in particular Victoria, for approving the slaughter of innocent children in the womb".

[steve_spackman]

According to this religious nutter, decrimalising abortion in Victoria brought the fires as punishment.....................

http://www.smh.com.au/national/abortion-laws-allowed-devil-to-destroy-pastor-20090210-83i8.html

Abortion laws allowed devil to destroy: pastor
February 11, 2009[/*:m:69ank26b]THE Catch The Fire Ministries has tried to blame the bushfires disaster on laws decriminalising abortion in Victoria, which it says make Australians an "open target for the devil to destroy".
The Pentecostal church's leader, Danny Nalliah, claims he had a dream about raging fires on October 21 and that he woke with "a flash from the spirit of God: that His conditional protection has been removed from the nation of Australia, in particular Victoria, for approving the slaughter of innocent children in the womb".

Im sure that guy has ties with those die hard left wing hypocritical evangelicals from the US..always have to make some stupid insane statement when this kinda thing happens

[Ranger]

There's a number of factors that contributed to the bushfires, not least mother nature itself.

Changes will be made and mistakes have been made and these will be addressed in the royal commission report, but personally I think the only people to be held accountable are the arsonists.

This may sound callous, but however tragic the consequences, pointing fingers for what was a natural disaster is quite futile in my opinion.

[rah]

I'm glad you asked; here are the details: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,25038717-5018722,00.html

Mr Incoll ( former fire chief) warned that in 2003, green groups were pushing for changes to planning laws that included restrictions on the removal of vegetation, "and worse still, the requirement for planting vegetation around and almost over houses, as part of any planning permit to build a house in the shire of Nillumbik, so it gave the appearance from the outside of being a forest".

Council elections were looming, and planning was a major issue. "The green group carried the day in council and the rules came to pass," he said.

Nillumbik Shire councillors, many of whom were last night attending community meetings across the region, declined to comment. The councillors said it would be inappropriate to speak about a six-year-old report when bushfires were still raging in the area and a royal commission had been announced.

I hope this answers your question. By the way, where do you live?

Absolutely does answer my question, thanks. Yeah well I have only seen a few green councils and I have never seen council regs as dumb as that.

I live on the outskirts of Sydney right next to the Royal National Park. Seen plenty of fires myself. I live in a very leefy suburb, but everyone knows the risks and only a few people do not take care of their property. I am due this week up on the ladder to clean the gutters. Again.

[Camelopard]

There's a number of factors that contributed to the bushfires, not least mother nature itself.

Changes will be made and mistakes have been made and these will be addressed in the royal commission report, but personally I think the only people to be held accountable are the arsonists.

This may sound callous, but however tragic the consequences, pointing fingers for what was a natural disaster is quite futile in my opinion.

My thoughts as well, people wanted to apportion blame after the Canberra fires as well. When we live in an environment like this, during exceptional circumstances (like those in Canberra in 2003) mother nature will create havoc, you can't plan for the fireballs created when fierce winds blow.

Like now the exceptional circumstances then were extremely high temperatures, powerful gusts of wind and dryness in the forests due to a lack of rain.

Eucalypts are a problem as they drop litter all year round, that was one of the reasons given in Canberra as to why some houses burnt and others didn't, gutters and eaves were full of very dry gum leaves and the like, sparks blowing around started fires in rooves.

Another reason given as the fire spreading so quickly was the close proximity of large pine forests around Canberra which also burnt very quickly, these were man made, managed forests and had been there in some cases for 60, 70 plus years, complete with fire breaks and apparently very little litter and under growth, it didn't stop the fires taking hold.

It was also believed that the original fire up in the Brindabellas was started deliberately.

[Valve Bounce]

Absolutely does answer my question, thanks. Yeah well I have only seen a few green councils and I have never seen council regs as dumb as that.

I live on the outskirts of Sydney right next to the Royal National Park. Seen plenty of fires myself. I live in a very leafy suburb, but everyone knows the risks and only a few people do not take care of their property. I am due this week up on the ladder to clean the gutters. Again.

I used to love living near trees - I had two thirds of an acre in Mt. Eliza, and I grew Eucalypts from seed and planted them around my house. However, I did have a double brick house made from Hawthorn hand made bricks. That was many, many years ago.

However, with the benefit of years, and having seen what bushfires did and the dangers posed by uncleared undergrowth, I have changed my outlook on having trees, especially Eucalypts and TeaTrees next to the house. And living near a forest would make me nervous - I would definitely have an escape plan. Maybe a large wine cellar with a fireproof trap door would be my first priority. But I fully appreciate the peace and beauty of living near a National Park.

So yeah!! I am a Greenie at heart, but if my requests for fire clearing of the underbrush is not approved, I would buy several goats and let them do the clearing work. (Saw that on a television program some time ago, using goats to clear a firebreak).

[rah]

I used to love living near trees - I had two thirds of an acre in Mt. Eliza, and I grew Eucalypts from seed and planted them around my house. However, I did have a double brick house made from Hawthorn hand made bricks. That was many, many years ago.

However, with the benefit of years, and having seen what bushfires did and the dangers posed by uncleared undergrowth, I have changed my outlook on having trees, especially Eucalypts and TeaTrees next to the house. And living near a forest would make me nervous - I would definitely have an escape plan. Maybe a large wine cellar with a fireproof trap door would be my first priority. But I fully appreciate the peace and beauty of living near a National Park.

So yeah!! I am a Greenie at heart, but if my requests for fire clearing of the underbrush is not approved, I would buy several goats and let them do the clearing work. (Saw that on a television program some time ago, using goats to clear a firebreak).

Besides a couple of years in units I have always lived near the bush. My last home near the bush was saved twice only because the neighbours had a pool. We were the last house in the street and the fire came up to the fence. The house was fibro and I would give it 5/10 for fire safety. What it did have though were smart decisions on plants around the house. Some trees near the house can be beneficial such as lilli pilli's. The house I live in now has aluminium cladding, we are working on the garden, has about 80m until a well maintained firebreak then the park. It is a safer house in that regard but still vulnerable under certain conditions. We always have an ICE bag ready and the misus knows to bail first ask questions later.

[Valve Bounce]

Besides a couple of years in units I have always lived near the bush. My last home near the bush was saved twice only because the neighbours had a pool. We were the last house in the street and the fire came up to the fence. The house was fibro and I would give it 5/10 for fire safety. What it did have though were smart decisions on plants around the house. Some trees near the house can be beneficial such as lilli pilli's. The house I live in now has aluminium cladding, we are working on the garden, has about 80m until a well maintained firebreak then the park. It is a safer house in that regard but still vulnerable under certain conditions. We always have an ICE bag ready and the misus knows to bail first ask questions later.

Living near/in the bush gives one a sense of tranquility that living in the city does not. There is obviously a very compelling argument for people to live in the Dandenongs, Mt Macedon as well as those affected by the recent/current bushfires. Given the choice, I would live there in a Heartbeat. Knowing what I do know and having learnt from the recent/current bushfires, I would have a large swimming pool and a system of sprinklers which can operate off a generator if necessary.

But there is no way my better half would live near the bush. Period!!

[Camelopard]

Living near/in the bush gives one a sense of tranquility that living in the city does not. There is obviously a very compelling argument for people to live in the Dandenongs, Mt Macedon as well as those affected by the recent/current bushfires. Given the choice, I would live there in a Heartbeat. Knowing what I do know and having learnt from the recent/current bushfires, I would have a large swimming pool and a system of sprinklers which can operate off a generator if necessary.

One major thing I can recall from aerial shots of the fires that swept though southern Sydney 15 years ago was of all the swimming pools intact, full of water with completely burnt out houses, I thought then that if it had been me I would have had a generator with pumps and sprinklers to try and cool/save the house by emptying the pool. Would it work, who knows, but I have to agree with valve I'd try and have a cellar to retreat to if circumstances meant that you were unable to escape, hindsight is a wonderful thing, which is in no way meant as a criticism in case this post is misinterpreted.

[rah]

Living near/in the bush gives one a sense of tranquility that living in the city does not. There is obviously a very compelling argument for people to live in the Dandenongs, Mt Macedon as well as those affected by the recent/current bushfires. Given the choice, I would live there in a Heartbeat. Knowing what I do know and having learnt from the recent/current bushfires, I would have a large swimming pool and a system of sprinklers which can operate off a generator if necessary.

But there is no way my better half would live near the bush. Period!!

Yeah I can't get by living too close to the city. Just the way I grew up.

Swimming pools do not always work. When the last fires ripped through Como in Sydney causing deaths, some of those were in a pool. Basically the pool boiled. An inground pool will work better, but don't underestimate what radiant heat will do. Dams work as well as I heard recently.

Deluge systems for houses are good, but there are still people installing them to run on electric pumps. Power is one of the first things to go in a fire. Once a couple of fire appliances hook up to the mains water supply in a street it will also reduce mains water pressure to a trickle. There were a couple of houses that burnt in Victoria that had deluge systems in place.

[Valve Bounce]

..........and charged with arson causing death. http://www.theage.com.au/national/churchill-arson-suspect-charged-20090213-86o3.html

It is unclear if further charges are pending.

The police have suppressed all further counts of death tol, keeping the toll at 181 for the past 3 days, although the Police Commissioner has stated that she expects the death toll to exceed 300.

The newspapers have started to show pictures of those who perished, putting faces to names, and I found this to be a shocking (to me) revelation to see pictures of happy persons who in fact have perished in such a horrible manner. It is most distressing.