Last new OW street race in the US ever?

[downtowndeco]

Something to ponder. It's my opinion that with the demise of the Detroit GP this year & the recent failures of San Jose, Houston, Las Vegas & Phoenix we have seen the last ever new OW street race attempted in the US.

With a few rare exceptions they just don't work. The start up cost is high, you are at the mercy of city politics, the courses are often micky mouse and the "fans" they attract often fair weather fans who don't actually follow the series but are just out for a day of sun and fun.

Does anyone out there think anyone will ever again attempt an OW street race in the U.S.? Or will St. Pete & Long Beach be it?

[call_me_andrew]

I'm sure there will still be attempts at it. But I think we've all learned that it shouldn't be done on a regular basis (see the Champ Car buisness model).

[ykiki]

Ever? Ever is a reeeeeeeaaaaally long time. I'm sure there'll be more once the economy picks up. Truth be told, the Las Vegas circuit produced a pretty good race.

[downtowndeco]

Pretty cool track. Not so profitable.


Ever? Ever is a reeeeeeeaaaaally long time. I'm sure there'll be more once the economy picks up. Truth be told, the Las Vegas circuit produced a pretty good race.

[MDS]

No.

I've talked with someone who is a member of a group that is laying the plans to bring street racing back to Denver in 2012. Denver was profitable in the early 2000s and the only reason the race went under was because the primary sponsor Centrix was involved in the sub-prime car lone market and went bust as a precursor of the sub-prime mortgage bust.

The theory is the with a stronger economy the race could be brought back with a low start up cost because the infrastructure is in place and the race already pre-sold to an extent. It's just in the talking stages right now, but its some pretty serious folks in Denver with the cash and contacts to do it.

[Phoenixent]

Something to ponder. It's my opinion that with the demise of the Detroit GP this year & the recent failures of San Jose, Houston, Las Vegas & Phoenix we have seen the last ever new OW street race attempted in the US.

I think if the market is right for that area and sponsors in place you could see another city have a street race. Ever is a long time and I would say that you could miss the mark on this one unless the IRL folds and then you would be correct. Besides you know what they say about opinions.


With a few rare exceptions they just don't work. The start up cost is high, you are at the mercy of city politics, the courses are often Mickey mouse and the "fans" they attract often fair weather fans who don't actually follow the series but are just out for a day of sun and fun.

Not unlike some oval tracks out there like Nashville which is a Mickey mouse track. Not unlike Talladega or Daytona were a chunk of those race fans only come to watch the BIG wreck and city politics as the team about the mufflers they are running due to noise pollution.


Does anyone out there think anyone will ever again attempt an OW street race in the U.S.? Or will St. Pete & Long Beach be it?

I believe there will be another street race in the US and no St.Pete and Long Beach will not be the only ones. Street race have been part of AOW racing history since 1909 just like Indy.

[ShiftingGears]

Oh, there will be more. Don't you worry about that.

[downtowndeco]

It always comes back to that, doesn't it? "If only a suitable sponsor can be found, street races are viable". People "talk" all the time about bringing a street race to a town. Remember all of the CCWS (& even some IRL) street races that have been in the planning stages in the last five years?

I'm saying that the street race festival model has been shown not to work. If Penske can't make a go of it, no one can. The promoters blow into town with big plans, big dreams and they leave every time with broken promises and worthless contracts. Remember how we all heard about San Jose's "Five year contract"? That was worth about as much as the paper it was printed on.

If someone attempts a new street race, or even tries to revive an old one (Denver) I'll come back and admit I was wrong. But IMO we'll never see a new "festival of speed" attempted again.


No.

I've talked with someone who is a member of a group that is laying the plans to bring street racing back to Denver in 2012. Denver was profitable in the early 2000s and the only reason the race went under was because the primary sponsor Centrix was involved in the sub-prime car lone market and went bust as a precursor of the sub-prime mortgage bust.

The theory is the with a stronger economy the race could be brought back with a low start up cost because the infrastructure is in place and the race already pre-sold to an extent. It's just in the talking stages right now, but its some pretty serious folks in Denver with the cash and contacts to do it.

[16&Gtown]

It always comes back to that, doesn't it? "If only a suitable sponsor can be found, street races are viable". People "talk" all the time about bringing a street race to a town. Remember all of the CCWS (& even some IRL) street races that have been in the planning stages in the last five years?

I'm saying that the street race festival model has been shown not to work. If Penske can't make a go of it, no one can. The promoters blow into town with big plans, big dreams and they leave every time with broken promises and worthless contracts. Remember how we all heard about San Jose's "Five year contract"? That was worth about as much as the paper it was printed on.

If someone attempts a new street race, or even tries to revive an old one (Denver) I'll come back and admit I was wrong. But IMO we'll never see a new "festival of speed" attempted again.

GP of Indianapolis 2014!

[SarahFan]

a more relevant question at this point would be ....'have we seen the last of additional ovals added to the schedule?'

[vintage]

Using Detroit being cancelled this year is a ridiculous premise for why street races don't work. We're only the worst economic drop in the last 25 years, and also Detroit just happens to be about the hardest hit city in the US.

What a great example.

If the model can't work, what exactly is your explanation for the apparent success of LB, Toronto, and St. Pete? If those races are successful, why is it so clear that no one could EVER replicate that success?

Oh, wait - let's throw in Surfer's Paradise.

[nigelred5]

It can work, but they are much more dependent on corporate sponsorship than a race at a permanent venue.

There have been very few that had the proper combination of venue, course configuration and sponsorship over the years. I'd rather see a semi-permanent traditional roadcourse built on public roads than another downtown farce like San Jose. Probably the worst street layout I've ever seen. Las Vegas had the potential to be an extremely good and very racy street course. Too bad it's unlikely to return any time soon, and if it does, every indication I've ever seen was it won't be in that location again.

[CCWS77]

It cost 150 million to build New Jersey Motor Park. I don't know why you would think getting mired in city politics over a million or two to is a big deal in comparison. The real point here is that most likely no one will be building any new state of the art racing tracks. If it is a street course or not hardly seems relevant. In other words, get used to the tracks that are already there.

[downtowndeco]

You named the four that "work". Sort of. Without corporate (or state as is the case w/Surfers) support most would not make it.

Detroit is not the only street race that has failed in the last five years. Houston. Denver. San Jose. Las Vegas. Phoenix.

Get back to me when a new street race is announced and then actually run. IMO it isn't going to happen any time soon.


Using Detroit being cancelled this year is a ridiculous premise for why street races don't work. We're only the worst economic drop in the last 25 years, and also Detroit just happens to be about the hardest hit city in the US.

What a great example.

If the model can't work, what exactly is your explanation for the apparent success of LB, Toronto, and St. Pete? If those races are successful, why is it so clear that no one could EVER replicate that success?

Oh, wait - let's throw in Surfer's Paradise.

[nigelred5]

It cost 150 million to build New Jersey Motor Park. I don't know why you would think getting mired in city politics over a million or two to is a big deal in comparison. The real point here is that most likely no one will be building any new state of the art racing tracks. If it is a street course or not hardly seems relevant. In other words, get used to the tracks that are already there.

Well, the main difference I see is a street course can virtually never be a permanent structure in any but the most unique situation and they almost always demand large amounts of public funds wiht no direct reembursement.
A true road course COULD be constructed that would allow all but a mimimal amount of walls, fencing and other hard structure to remain in place and be used as public roads

I think NJMSP is going to be a fantastic venue, once it matures. Hopefully it will mature into a Major League venue, but I ufortunately see it being engulfed by the country club aspect of it just by plan alone. If you really look at the plans and where all of hte residentila units are, there's not a lot of room for accomodating a significant amount of spectators at Thunderbolt, and Ther never were any plans at the Lightning track.

[CCWS77]

You are confirming my point. No one is going to build a new track any time soon in order to have a major race once or twice a year. If it is a temporary or permanent track doesn't matter. the idea this proves anything about "street" races is not founded

[MDS]

There are pros and cons to the whole standing track/street course arguement.

The biggest downside to permanent circuits are exceptionally hard to build in good locations, so you end up in out of the way locations in tiny media markets playing to small crowds, like Iowa. So as a promoter you have to work twice as hard to draw folks to the middle of nowhere (Iowa is actualy in the middle of corn fields) or face down track-killing NIMBY oppostion because you do operate 30 weekends a year and no neighbor wants to deal with that kind of noise during the weekend. Track building giant ISC got its rear end handed to it in Washington and New York by NIMBY folk, and if they can't succeed in areas close to major cities, good luck to anyone else.

The other downside to permanent tracks is competition in the same venue, sometimes less than six weeks apart. For example, there are only so many profitable dates at a track like Pheonix and right now both of them are in close proximity to a Cup race. The season finale at Homestead is what, less than a month away from the Cup race. If you think that doesn't hurt the weaker series your kidding.

Yes, the big problem with temporary circuits is that they are inherintly money losers. Out of the four street races on the schedule Long Beach is the only one that routinely covers its cost and makes a profit, although I think Toronto could easily be profitable in a couple of years. And yes festival of speeds aren't known for pulling in die hard fans, but honestly 80 percent of the people who watch the Indy 500 don't watch another IRL race that year. So why are the Indy only fans conisdered higher of than street festival fans?

Street fests also have an upside that standing tracks don't get. The NIMBY opposition is a lot less because its only one weekend a year and they're typically held in business districts that are fairly quiet on weekends so the merchants there typically welcome them.

The other big advantage is with street racing you bring the race to the people instead of bringing the people to the race. The ad spend required for a new event for a series with the profile of the IRL away from a metro area can be pheonomial. Add in the sanctioning fees and other costs and you might turn a profit as a promoter in year three.

A couple of years ago I was involved in exploring the possibility of bringing a Champ Car or IRL race to Atlanta. It never got off the ground, but there were essentially five options: Atlanta Motor Speedway, which was out of the question from day one; Racing the day after the Petiti Le Mans, which wasn't vaible; a spring race at Road Atlanta; a street race around Centennial Park; or an airport race at Dobbins AFD.

No matter how we explored the marketing numbers a spring race at Road Atlanta just wasn't vaible because the numbers for the IRL are soo low in Atlanta, however the "event" numbers are pretty high. Dobbins could have worked because its close to the city and draws large crowds for its airshows. If you could have combined the airshow and race, which is doable, you would have had a very solid event with good crossover demographics. The military didn't want to do it, although they said it would be something they might be open to in the future.

The numbers also worked well for a street race around Centennial Park if sold properly. I was really excited about this prospect, and its something we still talk about from time to time, so its not really "Dead" per say, but more of a pipe dream.

When I started doing sponsorship search no one was interested in talking about Road Atlanta. A few more were interested about Dobbins, but what brought the big guys to the table was a race around Centennial. That race would go past the Georgia Aquarium and World of Coke, the Atlanta Journal Constitution offices, and around both Phillips Arena, CNN Center. From stands, you could see about 60-80 percent of the course from several locations, there is pleanty of parking, interestate access, four MARTA stops within walking distance and its a place where people are used to going for events.

The advantages over Road America is huge. Coke's presence on that corner makes them very likely to step up and pay for the naming rights. At one point Coke was talking about a $4 $5 million buy in for "Coke Cola Grand Prix of Atlanta" and we had a slate of sponsors tentatively willing to commit $10 million, which would have covered a lot of the cost. Running around CNN Center and next to the AJC would have generated a lot of media coverage and Phillips and the Georgia Dome, are largely idle in April and the Atlanta World Car Show people were thrilled about the idea of having a street race on their weekend.

What eventually sunk us was a cold reception from the IRL and Champ Car's financial troubles as well as Atlanta politics. We talk occassionally that we might make another push if the economy and the IRL is stronger in 2013.

I can just tell you as someone who looked long and hard at making go at it when it comes to Road Atlanta verses a course that doesn't exist, the course the street race wins in every category. If you had an IRL event at Road Atlanta in April you would lose your shirt and no one would care. Have it in the Atlanta downtown its a much bigger media splash and could break even or be profitable in year one by the time you consider pouring rights and other entertainment options you could make money off of. Throw in being the last race before Indy and you got yourself a winner.

[Mark in Oshawa]

You named the four that "work". Sort of. Without corporate (or state as is the case w/Surfers) support most would not make it.

Detroit is not the only street race that has failed in the last five years. Houston. Denver. San Jose. Las Vegas. Phoenix.

Get back to me when a new street race is announced and then actually run. IMO it isn't going to happen any time soon.


Ok...Houston, the series failed it, it didn't fail because it was inheritly flawed. San Jose Ditto although it was an AWFUL track. Vegas, bad idea in a town that really was skeptical and lots of distractions and Phoenix? Just a screwed up mess to start with. Denver lost its only sponsor but as it was pointed out above, there is talk of bringing it back. Detroit is still a lousy location in some ways for ingress and egress and the economics of the city just are sucking HUGE. If the split in OW never happened, the institution of running that race likely would have had enough inertia that they could ridden this economic downturn out but the event was on shaky ground from the word go in its second iteration.

Look at the really good examples. Long Beach, Toronto, Surfer's and St. Pete's. In each case, the city was/is behind it. That is step one. All 4 have sponsors or have for the most part always had good sponsors. Then you toss in attendance amounting to enough cash flow to justify the cost and expense. Do all 4 make money? Nope....but close enough for the most part. Lets face something here. Street races are hard to pull off and most street circuits are LOUSY designs but lets go a bit further.

If a city and area really wants to make a race in the city work, they do what Adelaide, Melbourne and Montreal have done and make a city park into a makeshift permanent circuit. It also helps to have a top drawing series, and f1 was behind all three designs. All 3 were/are great layouts. Heck, look at the race in Trois Riveres Quebec for over 30 plus years. Mainly a Formula Atlantic race it has also featured ALMS and Grand AM. Trois Rivieres is a SMALL city at best and yet they have pulled this race off YEAR after YEAR. They were the only one's doing this in North America in the modern era of racing. Yet they survived.

Street racing the way it has been carried out in North America has been off the cuff and rather haphazard. Little thought has been given to aesthetics. Often the layouts are awkward at best.

I think Deco most of your negativity is because you are an oval fan and that is cool, just come out and state that. There are however some people in Indy Car racing that love the spectacle of an Indy Car slipping and powering down thru city streets. I have been to enough Toronto races to become a HUGE fan of the concept but I always tell people it has to be done RIGHT. The fact remains that 80% of the people at the Toronto GP/Indy probably wouldn't pay any attention to Indy Car racing AT all if not for the race there. What is more, if the same cars were racing up at Mosport, a place I grew up at as a race fan, that 80% likely would need more convincing to make the trek an hour out of town.

The advantages a street race always gives a series is that you are exposing your product to people who are casual race fans and you can then start to educate them and make them real race fans. Real race fans watch racing on TV more dedicated like. It can be said CART got a whole new market 1/10 the size of the USA when they started racing in Canada. The Canadian TV rights were a big deal and the ratings for CART/CCWS racing were quite high in Canada compared to those in the US of A and it all goes back to the street race in Toronto. So while the race maybe didn't fill anyone's pockets, no one was complaining either....

[SarahFan]

this is just silly....

of coarse someone, some group... some city is going to try again... this is AOWR after all

Tony himself wanted to run 'the' Vegas parking lot instead of the oval

[Jag_Warrior]

Ever and never are are dangerous words. The sun is supposed to have another 5 billion years of life. Assuming that we don't destroy the planet or get taken over by aliens before then, there will probably be some form of human life on the planet. And from rolling rocks in competition to racing chariots, humans have always seemed to enjoy contests of speed. Just because a couple of failed or failing American open wheel series may not add anymore street courses for while, that doesn't mean that one or more won't be added at some point in the near or distant future.

Who's to say that whoever takes the reins of F1, after Bernie is gone, won't add a street race in the U.S.? If people were that good at predicting the future, they'd have shorted the hell out of the S&P 500 last year and they'd be filthy rich right now.

[downtowndeco]

Alright, someone may try it some day. And I think you're right, if any race happens it would probably be an F1 race. But IMO, it will be a long, long time until an American OW series attempts it again.

Think about it. OW street races were being added and planned at the rate of 2 or 3 (or more) a year for a while there. Those days are over with and are never coming back.

While someone may try it again, I'd be very suprised to see a new street race anywhere in the U.S. for at least ten years.

[Rex Monaco]

I think your premise is flawed. The real problem is that CC, like the IRL now, was too weak to draw a crowd at a street race. But it's not the street race that is the problem, it's the weakened position of the racing series.

If NASCAR could go street racing, it would sell out the first year even during todays economic situation. And I expect Rome to be successful for F1.

When the day comes that more than a handful of people care about AOWR again, then street races will be added to the schedule. Right now, the IRL just needs to worry about bringing the interest back to their Indy race.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think your premise is flawed. The real problem is that CC, like the IRL now, was too weak to draw a crowd at a street race. But it's not the street race that is the problem, it's the weakened position of the racing series.

If NASCAR could go street racing, it would sell out the first year even during todays economic situation. And I expect Rome to be successful for F1.

When the day comes that more than a handful of people care about AOWR again, then street races will be added to the schedule. Right now, the IRL just needs to worry about bringing the interest back to their Indy race.

First off Formula 1 doesn't care if the street race makes money for anyone but Bernie and they keep finding suckers willing to dump 25 million a YEAR to just get the rights to a GP. The old Molson Indy used to be run with less than 1.5 million dollar budget not that long ago in Toronto and I doubt they are spending more than 3 or 4 now to get the track up and down and do some promotional work.

If NASCAR did a street race it would be HUGE because of the novelty factor and the ability NASCAR has had to draw crowds to the Cup series in particular. I would pay to see it too....gotta say the carnage would be fun!

Seriously tho, I think Deco you are dead on the money in saying it wont happen for a while. That's ok, I would rather a well thought out and well financed proposal was brought to the IRL then some of the half-assed ideas that came out of places like San Jose. The only thing San Jose did right was in the promotion side and that was becuase they hired the guy that Molstar used in Toronto for all those years to set up the marketing and sales effort. Too bad he had a dog of a track to sell....

[Rex Monaco]

If NASCAR did a street race it would be HUGE because of the novelty factor and the ability NASCAR has had to draw crowds to the Cup series in particular. I would pay to see it too....gotta say the carnage would be fun!

And that's my point. If the IRL was a strong series (or CC for that matter) then street races done right will work.

Deco is blaming street races for their failure, But that's flawed. It was the weak position of the series that caused them to fail.

So I agree that for now, the IRL should stay off the streets until they can bring the fans back to Indy. Because even a free race in Central Park wouldn't be a success right now.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Rex, as long as you understand Deco isn't even crazy on road racing from what I have seen, then you can understand why he has no time for street racing. To be honest, it has to be done right or the criticism is warranted...

[CCWS77]

Your premise is deeply flawed.

NJMP, and other permanent circuits, definitely cost more to build. (I do wonder where you got the 150 million figure.) They have a substantially greater pay back though. They are used, that is to say rented, almost every weekend of the year for many racing activities, grassroots motorsport of all types being very alive and well. Both circuits running at the same time many weekends. There is much use during the week for all kinds of activities. The note itself is amoritized over at least twenty years. And last, but not least, the land and facilities have substantial value themselves so that there is still great residual value.

None of the things I mentioned apply to street courses which have to make the entire years income in three days. Apples and oranges for sure.

NJMP was built because it has a revenue stream of something other then motor races for spectators. Nobody is going to build new tracks in which races for spectators are the reason for construction. If it is a temporary or permanent facility is irrelevant. Using this as evidence against Street tracks for spectator events is nonsense.

Rex Monaco said it better then I did ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[downtowndeco]

All of the evidence says that 9 out of 10 times street races are a losing proposition. The promoters lose money. The cities never see as many out of towners come to their cities to spend money as promised. And the series never seem to see the increase in their fan base that they expect.

After about 8 or 9 failures in a 5 or 6 year period it will be, IMO, a long time before anyone ever tries to start up a new street race.





NJMP was built because it has a revenue stream of something other then motor races for spectators. Nobody is going to build new tracks in which races for spectators are the reason for construction. If it is a temporary or permanent facility is irrelevant. Using this as evidence against Street tracks for spectator events is nonsense.

Rex Monaco said it better then I did ^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[garyshell]

All of the evidence says that 9 out of 10 times street races are a losing proposition.

Evidence? What evidence might that be? I am not saying you're wrong, just asking to see said "evidence".

Gary

[downtowndeco]

9 out of 10 times the races fail or are abandoned within a few years. You can't have any more solid evidence than that. : ).


Evidence? What evidence might that be? I am not saying you're wrong, just asking to see said "evidence".

Gary

[vintage]

The evidence asked for is the 9 of 10 failed street races. I could probably name 9 failed AOWR permanent course races (starting with Portland, Road America, Mont Tremblant, and Laguna - which, if you remember, was replaced by San Jose). I'm sure there are more. This is like a course in lying with statistics.

There is no doubt that making any venue payoff these days is a challenge.

[downtowndeco]

Talk about twisting the statistics.

I'm saying 90% of all street races don't make it. Permanant facilties have much high survival rate. Even the four you mentioned are still in business. The same can't be said for the majority of street circuits.


The evidence asked for is the 9 of 10 failed street races. I could probably name 9 failed AOWR permanent course races (starting with Portland, Road America, Mont Tremblant, and Laguna - which, if you remember, was replaced by San Jose). I'm sure there are more. This is like a course in lying with statistics.

There is no doubt that making any venue payoff these days is a challenge.

[Rex Monaco]

Then let's use some other statitics to back more flawed premises.

80% of the top rung AOWR series have failed in the last 20 years. Doesn't that mean that IRL is doomed to failure too?

How many car companies have failed in the history of the world? Doesn't that show us that ALL car companies will eventually fail?

How many five and dime stores have failed? Isn't Walmart then bound to fail?

When the IRL is strong enough to have it's crown race the Indy 500 beat NASCAR in TV ratings, then it will be on the road to being strong enough to attract fans to street races in select cities.

Unless you think the statitics point to the IRL's imminent demise, at which point the ALMS has a better chance of running a successful street race. Oh wait, road racing series seem to fail 90% of the time too.

Well I guess the 100% success rate of stock car racing is why NASCAR is more popular than all of them and will continue to be so.

[downtowndeco]

OK. You're right. Street races are almost always profitable and have a very slim chance of not being successful. There. Feel better? : ).





Then let's use some other statitics to back more flawed premises.

80% of the top rung AOWR series have failed in the last 20 years. Doesn't that mean that IRL is doomed to failure too?

How many car companies have failed in the history of the world? Doesn't that show us that ALL car companies will eventually fail?

How many five and dime stores have failed? Isn't Walmart then bound to fail?

When the IRL is strong enough to have it's crown race the Indy 500 beat NASCAR in TV ratings, then it will be on the road to being strong enough to attract fans to street races in select cities.

Unless you think the statitics point to the IRL's imminent demise, at which point the ALMS has a better chance of running a successful street race. Oh wait, road racing series seem to fail 90% of the time too.

Well I guess the 100% success rate of stock car racing is why NASCAR is more popular than all of them and will continue to be so.

[Rex Monaco]

OK. You're right. Street races are almost always profitable and have a very slim chance of not being successful. There. Feel better? : ).

I won't feel better until Honda has some competition and the Indy 500 is the top rated race on American television.

Until then the IRL should not worry about adding any races to it's schedule, street races or otherwise.

If and when the day comes that IRL has risen from the depths of which it is currently to a place of prestige of where AOWR once resided, then proposals for street races in the right cities should definitley be considered.

[downtowndeco]

You know, you might be right. San Jose (and all of the other street races) could probably had been saved if only Toyota, Chevy & Honda had been in the race.

You're starting to stray pretty far from the topic of the thread, which, at this point, you're pretty much agreeing with anyway.


I won't feel better until Honda has some competition and the Indy 500 is the top rated race on American television.

Until then the IRL should not worry about adding any races to it's schedule, street races or otherwise.

If and when the day comes that IRL has risen from the depths of which it is currently to a place of prestige of where AOWR once resided, then proposals for street races in the right cities should definitley be considered.

[MDS]

Standing Circuits have their problems to, namely being in the middle of nowhere. It order for standing tracks to be profitable they have to operate most every weekend, and you can't really do that if a couple of neighborhoods are in earshot. Go try and convience sponsors to invest in a race in the middle of nowhere, it's not easy. What kind of major sponsorship does Iowa have? Compare Iowa and Richmond to Long Beach and Long Beach wins every catagory.

Literally hundreds of tracks have been shut down because suburban sprawl has encroached upon them, and NIMBY opposition to new tracks have kicked ISC out of Seattle and New York City. In order for standing tracks to recoup their investment they need to be able to operate most weekends, and you can't do that if you're within earshot of a significant population. So in order to avoid urban sprawl you have to start tracks in the middle of nowhere.

In the Atlanta market one reason the NASCAR races there are weak on attendance is because the track is an hour south of town. AMS draws well because NASCAR is NASCAR, but trying starting an IRL race at Road Atlanta. When we ran the numbers we figured the built in crowd was around 10,000, if that, and most people would consider that a failure. No corporate sponsors wanted to invest any signficant money in it and it won't happen.

Street races are a much, much easier sell to corporations when your dealing with a series with such a tiny profile as the IRL. I think if the IRL thrives and the economy gets better (Which with socialist in the White House is far from assured), in you could see street races in Denver, Atlanta and I hope someone picks up on Paul Newman's proposal of a race at Floyd Bennet Field in NYC.

Say what you want about street races, but when successful they make a fair bigger splash than racing in the middle of an Iowa cornfield.

[Rex Monaco]

You're starting to stray pretty far from the topic of the thread, which, at this point, you're pretty much agreeing with anyway.

Well it's nice to finally see that you acknowledge the IRL is much too weak to take on anymore races at the moment.

[downtowndeco]

You're a funny guy. You act as though CART or CCWS were just knock'em dead with one after another sucessful street race. The only problem w/that scenario is that 95% of the street races that CCWS or CART produced failed.

It's not the series. It's the genre.

Don't misunderstand. I've been to street races. I saw Mario win in Long Beach. I think it's great to have a couple of them on a schedule for diversity. But I just don't think we're going to see any new ones added anytime soon, and I stand by that.


Well it's nice to finally see that you acknowledge the IRL is much too weak to take on anymore races at the moment.

[Rex Monaco]

But I just don't think we're going to see any new ones added anytime soon, and I stand by that.

You are right. We also aren't going to see any new engines at Indy or TV ratings that rival NASCAR anytime soon. So standing by your blatantly obvious prediction isn't really taking a risk.

[downtowndeco]

Rex. This thread is about whether there will ever be a new street race attempted. There probably won't be for many many years. You agree with me.

If you'd like to discuss ratings, the new engine formula or why even though you think CCWS/CART was so much superior to the IRL they still went out of business why don't you start a new thread?

Cheers.




You are right. We also aren't going to see any new engines at Indy or TV ratings that rival NASCAR anytime soon. So standing by your blatantly obvious prediction isn't really taking a risk.

[CCWS77]

Pointing out permanent tracks have other revenue is exactly the point....those tracks are not going to be built for spectator events. NJMP wasn't even really designed for large spectator events. Starter due a google search, there are New Jersey newspaper articles circa 2005 2006 citing it as a 150 million construction project. I looked because I was curious people have in the past cited the costs of street circuit construction as on the order of 5 or 10 million. So the only way a permanent facilty makes any sense is if you can use it continuously for many many years. In other words no permanent tracks are going to be built for the purpose of having an IRL race - which is the absurd flip side of the of insisting there will not be any new street races. All this thread has done is made clear the IRL will not be on ANY new circuits any time soon.

Maybe that was a real difference between Champ Car and the IRL. One can only race on pre-existing tracks, perhaps in the middle of nowhere, and one could build out to reach new fans and sponsors. If that is true, I have no idea why you want to celebrate and promote that, which seems to be the point of this thread.

[SarahFan]

How much did it cost to build the track?
Including the additions and improvements that have been made since the track opened in 2006, the cost totals approximately $100 million.

SUMMARY

Miller Motorsports Park is the most advanced, safest and best-equipped road racing facility in North America. So outstanding was its design and execution that it was named "Motorsports Facility of the Year" by the Professional Motorsport World Expo in Cologne, Germany, on November 8, 2006. The facility offers something for everyone, with outstanding fan amenities, unmatched corporate meeting and entertainment options and the finest paddock and garages available for teams. Miller Motorsports Park is a significant addition to the national road racing industry, and a major component of the ever-growing Salt Lake City sporting mark



* above is from the faqs section of the Miller Motor Sports website....I'm not sure if that includes the cost of land, although I suspect it does....

[SarahFan]

Infineon Raceway owns 1,600 acres in the beautiful Sonoma Valley, 900 of which is used for daily racing activities.
More than nine and a half million cubic yards of dirt were moved on the Infineon Raceway property during the $50-million Modernization Plan from 2000-2002.


*peeking around the website reveals some other interesting tidbits.... the last time the track changed hands it was purchased at auction for only 800k...

even in 1981 1600 acres in Sonoma Valley for 800k had to be a friggin steal

[DirtDevil5]

this is just silly....

of coarse someone, some group... some city is going to try again... this is AOWR after all

Tony himself wanted to run 'the' Vegas parking lot instead of the oval



The IRL's new stratedy should be to do exactly the opposit of
whatever TG decides to do

since everything he has implimented since the Split has proved to
be wrong, then doing exactly the opposite must be right....

why not???

Long live the VISION

[garyshell]

The IRL's new stratedy should be to do exactly the opposit of whatever TG decides to do, since everything he has implimented since the Split has proved to be wrong, then doing exactly the opposite must be right....

My disdain for King George is well known here, but I think you can hardly say EVERYTHING he has done since the split has proved to be wrong. After all who was the last man standing?

Gary

since everything he has implimented since the Split has proved to
be wrong, then doing exactly the opposite must be right....

why not???

Ask Kalkhoven, Forsythe, Petit & Gentilozzi.

[Rex Monaco]

This thread is about whether there will ever be a new street race attempted.

If your question is will a street race EVER be attempted? Then the obvous answer is yes it will be attempted. But not while the IRL is still weak. That's the mistake that CCWS made.

Pre-split CART started several street races and that were succesful. Surfers Paradise being one example that IRL is now too weak to continue.

So it's not street taces that are the problem for their failure as you are trying to make the case. It's the lack of enthusiasm in the general population for a racing seires that is weak and all but irrelevant that's the problem.

Everyone knew who Mario Andretti was and they wanted to see him race. Do enough their grandkids even care about Marco Andretti enough to pay for race tickets today?

And that's why I keep saying that your premise is flawed. CCWS was weak. The IRL is weak. It was the series that failed the race, not the race that failed the series.

[nigelred5]

It cost 150 million to build New Jersey Motor Park. I don't know why you would think getting mired in city politics over a million or two to is a big deal in comparison. The real point here is that most likely no one will be building any new state of the art racing tracks. If it is a street course or not hardly seems relevant. In other words, get used to the tracks that are already there.

My point is a situation like Belle Isle in Detroit could very easily be made into a permanent park venue, like Fundidora, or Hermanos Rodriguez, or even Monza, Not be seen as a total waste of government money and still be used by taxpayers for other events. It's no different than the age old practice os wasting millions of dollars of taxpayers money on temporary structures to save a short term buck. If they are going to spend public money anywhere, at all, spend it on a durable permanent structure like the track at Mexico city. I've played soccer, tennis, baseball, ridden my bicycle and swam in the aquatics center there.

[garyshell]

Surfers Paradise being one example that IRL is now too weak to continue.

Exactly how does an impasse over scheduling equate to weakness. I am not saying the IRL is not weak right now but the snafu at Surfers is not attributable to that.

Gary

[Shifter]

Wayyyyy off topic here, just an interesting tidbit. Feel free to skip over it.

Everytime I hear the NIMBY problem applied to road courses I think of my local track, Summit Point in West Virginia. Homeland Security bought some of the land and certain access rights in order to train gov't employees how to drive. Suddenly, every obnoxious anti-racing NIMBY organization in the area were told to kiss off by the federal government. I had never been so proud of homeland security in my life!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Exactly how does an impasse over scheduling equate to weakness. I am not saying the IRL is not weak right now but the snafu at Surfers is not attributable to that.

Gary

Gary, if the IRL wanted the race at Surfers, they would have found a way to make it fit in the schedule. The dropping of Surfer's is consistent with Tony's MO in staying out of foreign markets offshore.

I think the cost of going to Surfer's wasn't worth it to the IRL and I can almost see that point EXCEPT for the fact Australian money and interest is legitimate and would keep the IRL open as a place for Australian sponsors to back their drivers. In this economic climate, I could argue that this wasn't the time to give up on Surfer's.

To your theory Deco that street racing will never happen again, as I said earlier, it has to be done right and if there is one thing you and I agree on is that the CCWS/CART management often did it poorly. It still does NOT prove the concept is a failure as Long Beach and Toronto have done well for years.

It will always come back to people in the cities making the event work through hard work, smart planning and a city willing to help out. AS for the impact of out of towners, I agree it isn't as great as some would like everyone to believe, but I fail to see how the IRL race at Chicagoland draws anyone in from afar either. Heck, I bet 80% of the crowd at the Brickyard are Hoosiers too.

Racing in the IRL is pretty much localized fans coming to the track. You don't hear great stories of the great caravans of RV's going to the IRL events like they do to NASCAR. I travel all over the Eastern US and in the summer I can tell where the NASCAR race is by where I see all the campers and RV's going on the interstates. I have yet to pickup on the phenomena when I have been as little as 300 miles from an IRL event.

So if the IRL is catering to a lot of local fans, wouldn't you get more with a well designed and marketed street course downtown in a major market? The majority of major US cities do NOT have a first class racing venue close and this is where all of this started. Heck, in the case of Detroit or LA, the IRL abandoned the ovals there. They bailed on Charlotte and Atlanta too. Now I think of it...maybe Ovals are not too healthy a business plan...I could argue THAT point.....

[indycool]

These things move in cycles. In the late '60s and early '70s, there was a rush to build tracks -- Michigan, Texas World, Pocono, Ontario, Talladega. Some survivd. Some didn't.

We had an explosion of street racs in the '80s -- Dallas, Columbus, Des Moines, St. Petersburg, Denver -- all of which failed.

We had an explosion of street races in the '00s -- Denver again, St. Pete again, San Jose, Vegas, Phoenix, Edmonton -- almost all of them failed.

I think dd is right for the most part -- never say never -- but until someone finds a better mousetrap on the wallet, we're not going to see a lot of these gtried, let alone flourish.

[pits4me]

Using Detroit being cancelled this year is a ridiculous premise for why street races don't work. We're only the worst economic drop in the last 25 years, and also Detroit just happens to be about the hardest hit city in the US.

What a great example.

If the model can't work, what exactly is your explanation for the apparent success of LB, Toronto, and St. Pete? If those races are successful, why is it so clear that no one could EVER replicate that success?

Oh, wait - let's throw in Surfer's Paradise.

And I thought Roger was going to save Detroit and prove once-and-for-all that his CART/CCWS nemesis' didn't know how to successfully grow a street event. Long Beach, Toronto, Vancouver, Denver, Houston, Surfer's, etc. were just flukes.



These things move in cycles. In the late '60s and early '70s, there was a rush to build tracks -- Michigan, Texas World, Pocono, Ontario, Talladega. Some survivd. Some didn't.

We had an explosion of street racs in the '80s -- Dallas, Columbus, Des Moines, St. Petersburg, Denver -- all of which failed.

We had an explosion of street races in the '00s -- Denver again, St. Pete again, San Jose, Vegas, Phoenix, Edmonton -- almost all of them failed.

I think dd is right for the most part -- never say never -- but until someone finds a better mousetrap on the wallet, we're not going to see a lot of these gtried, let alone flourish.

Detroit and Pheonix have consistently failed whether CC, IRL or F1. Edmonton is a successful airport venue.

How many of the legacy street events would still be going had various entities not been burning up financial resources in a fragmented open-wheel market? There are a lot of $$$ trying to support an Indy-centric business model.

[indycool]

Edmonton lost $5.3 million last year.

[pits4me]

Edmonton lost $5.3 million last year.

With Toronto back on the schedule maybe that will change. Edmonton was treated as a uniification afterthought last year.

. ... and Canadians like the sexy lookin' cars. Guess we need to tell them to be patient and wait until what, 2012!? Isn't that when all the planets align? Hmmmm.

[indycool]

Doubt that a loss of $5.3 million can be based on the look of the cars, slight as it is to a general public.

[downtowndeco]

As far as I've heard Edmondton has always lost money, regardless of the cars running there.


With Toronto back on the schedule maybe that will change. Edmonton was treated as a uniification afterthought last year.

. ... and Canadians like the sexy lookin' cars. Guess we need to tell them to be patient and wait until what, 2012!? Isn't that when all the planets align? Hmmmm.

[Easy Drifter]

Even if Edmonton loses money (which it did) and even Toronto has sometimes, the question is does the overall benifit to the city outweigh the loss. To some extent that depends on who is financing the event. If it is private promoters they will soon bail. If the Govt. is underwriting the event, or covering losses, the overall benifit in the way of tourist dollars spent and publicity may outweigh the actual loss at the event proper.
Caribana in Toronto usually loses money with the City underwriting the event. However it is a huge event which packs the hotels and restuarants and has a huge spin off in shopping so the City feels the overall benifit is well worth while.
Combining a race with another event or festival, providing there is cooperation could benifit both.
To do that TG and the event promoters would have to work to co-ordinate dates with cities and other events and I don't feel TG is willing to accomodate such possible changes. His attitude would most likely be they have to accomodate me.

[SarahFan]

Edmonton lost $5.3 million last year.


should they cancel it?

[downtowndeco]

CART chased street races and went BK. CCWS chased street races and went BK. IMO it would be a poor idea to go out on any sort of limb chasing these types of races unless the date and price is right for both parties.


Even if Edmonton loses money (which it did) and even Toronto has sometimes, the question is does the overall benifit to the city outweigh the loss. To some extent that depends on who is financing the event. If it is private promoters they will soon bail. If the Govt. is underwriting the event, or covering losses, the overall benifit in the way of tourist dollars spent and publicity may outweigh the actual loss at the event proper.
Caribana in Toronto usually loses money with the City underwriting the event. However it is a huge event which packs the hotels and restuarants and has a huge spin off in shopping so the City feels the overall benifit is well worth while.
Combining a race with another event or festival, providing there is cooperation could benifit both.
To do that TG and the event promoters would have to work to co-ordinate dates with cities and other events and I don't feel TG is willing to accomodate such possible changes. His attitude would most likely be they have to accomodate me.

[MDS]

Deco, there is an argument that the IRL has chased standing circuits and the only reason it hasn't gone bankrupt is because of the Brickyard 400.

Honestly, most of the IRL's standing circuit events are money losers. Kansas and Chicago only sell out because of the NASCAR "Season ticket" plan. Homestead is largely a Malboro giveaway; Watkins Glen is one step above a track rental; Infineon doesn't draw flies; Mid-Ohio and Motegi are Honda company picnics; Milwaukee is struggling to turn a profit and might not be available in 2010; Nashville was a Firestone company picnic and it still couldn't keep its spot on the schedule; Kentucky is clearly lying about their drawing ability.

If you measure success as both sides making money, the only successful races the IRL runs is Indy, Iowa, Texas, Long Beach and probably Toronto. Standing tracks fail just as hard as street circuit. Governments prop up street races like Edmonton and St. Pete because of the indirect revenue they recieve. Cities and counties benefit from increased hotel tax, sales tax, liquor and beer taxes, perimiting fees, parking income, not to mention an increased profile. I can't speak for every city that holds a street festival, but they probably recoup their investment.

Don't be fooled by this whole BS about the IRL not doing track rentals or co-promotes. I have heard from numerous sources that the IRL events are "Garenteed gate" events. Meaning if the track doesn't reap a certain amount of revenue a percentage of the sanctioning fee is returned, and that percentage is as high as 125 percent in some cases.

[indycool]

MDS, I enjoyed your view of the races that make money.

1. So, Kansas and Chicago are just fine.

2. Homestead getting paid by Marlboro is hust fine.

3. Watkins Glen draws.

4. Infineon draws eniough it just signed a new three-year deal.

5. Milwaukee, with the Fair Board, always a struggle, dating well back into the CART days. Motegi and Mid-Ohio are fine with Honda.

6. Toronto ain't made money lately, so TBA,

[MDS]

They've struck some good deals, particularly with Kansas and Chicago, and they aren't paying every track they race at, but Infineon is one that I hear gets 125 percent back every year, so of course they're going to sign a new contract.

Watkins Glen is a bit of a different situation. Since NASCAR owns Grand Am they need to run a number of money losing events each year so they can hold the 24 hours of Daytona. Since NASCAR and ISC are essentially the same body they split that race with the IRL because by running two unsuccessful events on the same weekend they actually lose less money than running Grand Am by itself. It's essentially a track rental for the IRL.

Also, some would argue that running in front of a crowd that is their because they got a free or insanely cheap ticket does nothing to help the sport and looks horrible when they start leaving by the midway point.

[Rex Monaco]

CART chased street races and went BK. CCWS chased street races and went BK.

Can't you think of any other reasons why those series failed?

[downtowndeco]

How much time do you have? : )


Can't you think of any other reasons why those series failed?

[garyshell]

None, because it's over. There is one series now, in case you hadn't noticed. Just give it a freakin' rest already.

gary

[pits4me]

CART chased street races and went BK. CCWS chased street races and went BK. IMO it would be a poor idea to go out on any sort of limb chasing these types of races unless the date and price is right for both parties.

Too much Kool Aid DD. The problem was not street races, it was the fragmented OW market fighting over survival chump change left behind the NASCAR train. It was team owners who went wherever they saw redistribution of wealth and racing entitlement (aka ride buying, etc.). It was a dying TV audience who had little interest in following their series beyond the legacy and marquee events.

Funny thing happens when subsidies dissappear and owners and promoters are left to their own devices. They shut down.

[chuck34]

Too much Kool Aid DD. The problem was not street races, it was the fragmented OW market fighting over survival chump change left behind the NASCAR train. It was team owners who went wherever they saw redistribution of wealth and racing entitlement (aka ride buying, etc.). It was a dying TV audience who had little interest in following their series beyond the legacy and marquee events.

Funny thing happens when subsidies dissappear and owners and promoters are left to their own devices. They shut down.

So there are no ride buyers in any healthy series, and there were not ride buyers in CART pre-split? Interesting. I never thought ride buyers were the downfall of the sport. Wow!

[downtowndeco]

Gary, I agree with you. But I wasn't the one sending the "last street race" thread off in the "IRL bad/CC good" direction. Cheers.

QUOTE=garyshell;591601]None, because it's over. There is one series now, in case you hadn't noticed. Just give it a freakin' rest already.

gary[/QUOTE]

[garyshell]

Gary, I agree with you. But I wasn't the one sending the "last street race" thread off in the "IRL bad/CC good" direction. Cheers.

Maybe not, but you are ALWAYS ready, willing and able to follow that path whenever it does arrise. Stop taking the bait and the discussions will die. Just let it go.

Gary

[downtowndeco]

Fair enough. But then give the other knuckleheads a kick in the shins once in a while too, not just me. : ). Cheers.


Maybe not, but you are ALWAYS ready, willing and able to follow that path whenever it does arrise. Stop taking the bait and the discussions will die. Just let it go.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

But I wasn't the one sending the "last street race" thread off in the "IRL bad/CC good" direction.

The good thing about attempting revisionism on an internet forum, is the record is clearly there for all to see.

Let's recap.

First mention of Champ Car:

I'm sure there will still be attempts at it. But I think we've all learned that it shouldn't be done on a regular basis (see the Champ Car buisness model).
Not a positve one.

Third mention of Champ Car:

What eventually sunk us was a cold reception from the IRL and Champ Car's financial troubles as well as Atlanta politics.
Not a positve one.

Fourth mention:

It can be said CART got a whole new market 1/10 the size of the USA when they started racing in Canada. The Canadian TV rights were a big deal and the ratings for CART/CCWS racing were quite high in Canada compared to those in the US of A and it all goes back to the street race in Toronto.
Positive for CART/CCWS.

Fifth mention:

The real problem is that CC, like the IRL now, was too weak to draw a crowd at a street race.
Not positive.

Seventh:

You act as though CART or CCWS were just knock'em dead with one after another sucessful street race.
Not positive.

Eighth:

If you'd like to discuss ratings, the new engine formula or why even though you think CCWS/CART was so much superior to the IRL they still went out of business why don't you start a new thread?
And this is where CART/CC was first used in a "CART/CC verses the IRL" manner.

So don't start blaming other people when it was you who introduced (as is usual for you) your undying, unquestioning IRL partisanship to the thread.

[Rex Monaco]

None, because it's over. There is one series now, in case you hadn't noticed. Just give it a freakin' rest already.

gary

But he says they went bankrupt because of street races, right? So that means that if it weren't for street races, CART (or CCWS) would still be here today.

Or so the premise of this thread would have you beleive.

And it's a premise that I beleive is flawed. Which is why I asked a rhetorical question, knowing that he would not attempt to name other reasons because that would poke holes in his premise that street races caused them to go bankrupt.

[indycool]

Poorly organized and financed street races were a major factor, okay?

[downtowndeco]

Gary. Rex's posts are a perfect example of something that should not go uncontested.

But I will. This time. : ).

[garyshell]

But he says they went bankrupt because of street races, right? So that means that if it weren't for street races, CART (or CCWS) would still be here today.

Or so the premise of this thread would have you beleive.

And it's a premise that I beleive is flawed. Which is why I asked a rhetorical question, knowing that he would not attempt to name other reasons because that would poke holes in his premise that street races caused them to go bankrupt.


Who cares about his premise? What freakin' difference does it make? It's all past tense. Talk about why you might think street races might succeed now. (BTW... I think they can.) Just stop baiting DD or responding to his bait so that every damn conversation here reverts back to the us versus them arguments. There is no us or them any more. There is one damn series. We live or die by what happens with that one series NOW. All the rest of this is just mental masturbation.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

Who cares about his premise? What freakin' difference does it make? It's all past tense. Talk about why you might think street races might succeed now. (BTW... I think they can.) Just stop baiting DD or responding to his bait so that every damn conversation here reverts back to the us versus them arguments. There is no us or them any more. There is one damn series. We live or die by what happens with that one series NOW. All the rest of this is just mental masturbation.

Gary

Instead of policing threads, you should read them.

[PA Rick]

I hear Jim Hurtubise's old Kurtis Kraft NOVI may be entered in the 500. oops, wrong thread...

[Rex Monaco]

Maybe everyone should stop talking about other members and just post about the subject of the threads, which in this case is "Last new OW street race in the US ever?".

Otherwise there'll be some time outs.

I agree. Since you are the one with the authority to give time outs, you are the only one who should be policing the threads.

[Rex Monaco]

Gary. Rex's posts are a perfect example of something that should not go uncontested.

But I will. This time. : ).

What is there to contest? Are you claiming these aren't direct quotes? Are you going to pull a Bill Clinton on us and dispute the meaning of the words?

The IRL is now, just as the CCWS was then, too weak to go street racing. Contest that. You claim it's street races and I claim it's the lack of popularity for the series.

To me it's really simple. A series is like a rock band. When the band or the series is popular, they can fill a stadium or an oval track. When they are no longer popular, they will have a hard time filling a club or street festival.

And the gate is the determination if an event, race or a concert, is a success or not.

Formula One could race in any number of US city streets TODAY and it would draw huge crowds. The problem is that F1 would think it deserves the majority of the gate for bringing the crowds.

NASCAR could also draw crowds in a few select cities, although the size of the cars wouldn't make the racing as attractive.

So while the IRL is right to worry about improving the attendence at it's existing races, there is no reason why they couldn't race in the streets of Miami, New Orleans or Atlantic City and draw a crowd when the Indy 500 is more popular than the Daytona 500 again.

But they need to build that race back up first, before they start chasing after grander ideas.

[Rex Monaco]

Talk about why you might think street races might succeed now. (BTW... I think they can.)

You tell me why you think a street race might succeed now?

Because if you had actually read my posts, then you would have seen that I wasn't arguing that it could survive now.

[Rex Monaco]

Just stop baiting DD or responding to his bait so that every damn conversation here reverts back to the us versus them arguments. There is no us or them any more. There is one damn series. We live or die by what happens with that one series NOW. All the rest of this is just mental masturbation.

Gary


I think the IRL is weak right now. That is not baiting anyone. That is stating an opinion. And I stated that opinion to support my opinion as to why I feel street races failed under CCWS. And I stated that CCWS was also weak.

The better response to that would have been to argue why the IRL is not weak, if someone is so inclined to actually beleive that to be true.

[indycool]

The series is stronger because it's one series, not two. Now, that doesn't say it's as strong as it may eventually be or could be or not be or could not be, but it IS stronger for that reason and that reason alone.

And I might point out that F1 tried street races in Phoenix and Dallas, they did NOT draw large crowds and everyone took a large financial bath but Bernie.

[SarahFan]

The series is stronger because it's one series, not two. Now, that doesn't say it's as strong as it may eventually be or could be or not be or could not be, but it IS stronger for that reason and that reason alone.

And I might point out that F1 tried street races in Phoenix and Dallas, they did NOT draw large crowds and everyone took a large financial bath but Bernie.


2007 saw 36 cars

2008 saw 26 or so...

2009 is sitting at 17 and hoping for 22

stronger?

[downtowndeco]

Go back to post one and reread it. I stand by my premise;

We will probably never see another OW street race attempted here in the states.

I don't see NASCAR looking to race in San Jose.

I don't see Bernie writing a check to race in Houston.

I don't see the IRL looking to add any more street races any time soon (please post a link if you know otherwise).

Now if you want to go into woulda coulda shoulda if only type of speculations, be my guest. It doesn't change the fact that most street races do fail and I don't see anyone lined up to take a crack at it again anytime soon.

Until a new street race is added I'm going to let this one rest. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for an announcement.





What is there to contest? Are you claiming these aren't direct quotes? Are you going to pull a Bill Clinton on us and dispute the meaning of the words?

The IRL is now, just as the CCWS was then, too weak to go street racing. Contest that. You claim it's street races and I claim it's the lack of popularity for the series.

To me it's really simple. A series is like a rock band. When the band or the series is popular, they can fill a stadium or an oval track. When they are no longer popular, they will have a hard time filling a club or street festival.

And the gate is the determination if an event, race or a concert, is a success or not.

Formula One could race in any number of US city streets TODAY and it would draw huge crowds. The problem is that F1 would think it deserves the majority of the gate for bringing the crowds.

NASCAR could also draw crowds in a few select cities, although the size of the cars wouldn't make the racing as attractive.

So while the IRL is right to worry about improving the attendence at it's existing races, there is no reason why they couldn't race in the streets of Miami, New Orleans or Atlantic City and draw a crowd when the Indy 500 is more popular than the Daytona 500 again.

But they need to build that race back up first, before they start chasing after grander ideas.

[Rex Monaco]

Go back to post one and reread it. I stand by my premise;

We will probably never see another OW street race attempted here in the states.

Your new position is more reasonable as it leaves an opening, unlike your original position.


...we have seen the last ever new OW street race attempted in the US.

[Rex Monaco]

The series is stronger because it's one series, not two. Now, that doesn't say it's as strong as it may eventually be or could be or not be or could not be, but it IS stronger for that reason and that reason alone.

Being unified is a step in the right direction, but that does not mean that the IRL isn't weak.

[994ever]

Looks like you may be able to add Toronto to the list of failed street races pretty soon...

At its peak, the Molson Indy Toronto had 10 fully sold grandstands.

For the 2009 "Honda" Indy Toronto, there are FOUR.

Even in the grim final days of Champcar in 2007 there were seven which were respectably occupied on race day.

[downtowndeco]

Oddly enough though ticket sales for Long Beach are up over last year. Go figure.


Looks like you may be able to add Toronto to the list of failed street races pretty soon...

At its peak, the Molson Indy Toronto had 10 fully sold grandstands.

For the 2009 "Honda" Indy Toronto, there are FOUR.

Even in the grim final days of Champcar in 2007 there were seven which were respectably occupied on race day.

[Rex Monaco]

Looks like you may be able to add Toronto to the list of failed street races pretty soon...

At its peak, the Molson Indy Toronto had 10 fully sold grandstands.

For the 2009 "Honda" Indy Toronto, there are FOUR.

Even in the grim final days of Champcar in 2007 there were seven which were respectably occupied on race day.

I wonder how many grandstands are sold out today, that is now making Micheal Andretti sound so positive and upbeat?

[call_me_andrew]

I'm glad someone else said something because I didn't want to necropost in an old thread.

Many of today's permanent race tracks were created to replace street courses. These include (and are not limited to) Watkins Glen, Daytona, Donnington Park, Spa-Francorchamps, and parts of Circuit de la Sarthe.

[Easy Drifter]

Reading the CASC forum (Ontario's SCCA equivilant) they have no real information on what is happening. Usually at least one support race comes from their ranks. Most of the minor officials are from one or another club, mostly BARC and the corner workers are from the two Ont. marshalling groups. From what I can see (I do not belong to the forum) CASC has not been approached nor have the member clubs.
Not bright nor efficient.
Publicity outside of the GTA does not exist.

[Mark in Oshawa]

They wouldn't be the first promoter group to wait until a month before the event to try and get all the support people on board. It's happened before and will happen again. They treat ti just like any other vendor service.

They do that and they are asking for a world of headaches. BARC-OC(BritishAutoRacingClub- Ontario Chapter) are the largest of the CASC clubs and they basically ran all the support services, organized the marshalling and volunteers (including my group of timing and scoring officials). They would be able to just jump in and continue as if last year never was cancelled if they were given ample time.

The Andretti's are idiots if they didn't use this organization. If they hit town in May and start looking for help, they will find most of the volunteers that used to help out may just have their holidays booked and wont be in town. Summer in Toronto usually means you get out of town as often as possible if you are not in town for a reason besides your job. A lot of the people who worked at the old Indy wouldn't have any great desire to pay money to watch after 20 plus years as volunteers and they wont like being taken for granted. No offense to Mikey Andretti but does he think all the locals are hicks to be snowed here?

I am reading not much in the way of publicity but I didn't take that to be a bad sign yet. This finding out though that they were not going to use the organization sitting there ready to mobilize to me is BAFFLING.....

[downtowndeco]

Bump. Just a reminder that there are still no new street races on the horizon anytime soon. If one has been officially announced and I missed it I'm sure someone will let me know.

[SarahFan]

Bump. Just a reminder that there are still no new street races on the horizon anytime soon. If one has been officially announced and I missed it I'm sure someone will let me know.


^nominee for dumbest post of the year


talk of China... two in brazil... and turning Cleveland into an Oval.......right about now you should be advocating a new street race over those options

[SarahFan]

Oh.... and lets not forget that the two street races already run dwarfed the Oval in both attendance and TV ratings

[indycool]

SarahFan, I've heard the barest of talks mentioned about a Brazil race, nothing in China and resurrection of Cleveland as an oval is also news to me. Anyone else hear of that stuff?

[SarahFan]

SarahFan, I've heard the barest of talks mentioned about a Brazil race, nothing in China and resurrection of Cleveland as an oval is also news to me. Anyone else hear of that stuff?


http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/miller-robins-indycar-mailbag-for-4-30/miller-robins-indycar-mailbag-for-4-30/P1/

http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132952


you can try indycar.com also....talkin terry has confirmed talks

[garyshell]

SarahFan, I've heard the barest of talks mentioned about a Brazil race, nothing in China and resurrection of Cleveland as an oval is also news to me. Anyone else hear of that stuff?


Yep, IC, all three have been talked about on several sources. With the incestuous relationships of the various forms of media, it all might very well be traced back to a single source. However there has been confirmation from the IRL about the Brazil and China venues being given at least SOME consideration. Cleveland, on the other hand, seems to be unsubstantiated at this juncture.

Gary

[garyshell]

Bump. Just a reminder that there are still no new street races on the horizon anytime soon. If one has been officially announced and I missed it I'm sure someone will let me know.


And what was the point of that? What possible benefit could this bring to this community other than to inject a combative anti-social nature to the discussions. But then again, why am I surprised? You really do enjoy sticking your finger in other folks eyes, don't you?

Gary

[SarahFan]

And what was the point of that? What possible benefit could this bring to this community other than to inject a combative anti-social nature to the discussions. But then again, why am I surprised? You really do enjoy sticking your finger in other folks eyes, don't you?

Gary


sticking a finger in other folks eyes?

if that was the intention he missed his mark by a long shot.....

[downtowndeco]

Did I miss it or was a new US street race announced I don't know about?

[SarahFan]

Did I miss it or was a new US street race announced I don't know about?


is the 2010 schedule out?

[garyshell]

Did I miss it or was a new US street race announced I don't know about?


Announced? No, but the IRL sure as hell is considering one or more (as if you didn't know that). You don't REALLY think either of these venues would be an oval do you? Oh, wait, yes you probably do.

http://thescore.ibj.com/content/?p=925

Gary

[SarahFan]

what would make more sense for AOWR..

a streetcoarse in a Domestic city?

or a roadcoarse in china?

[indycool]

What makes sense is to "follow the money."

[SarahFan]

What makes sense is to "follow the money."

seems they have been chasing it for 14 years.....

what makes china for the IRL different than China for CC?

[garyshell]

seems they have been chasing it for 14 years.....

what makes china for the IRL different than China for CC?


Hopefully a STABLE partner in China. It was pretty obvious that CC never really did the proper due dillignece with the folks they chose to partner with. I am HOPING that the IRL does not make the same mistake.

Gary

[indycool]

The experience with CC doesn't change anything: Follow the money.

[SarahFan]

The experience with CC doesn't change anything: Follow the money.

pretty much a polar opposite take on when CC was pursueing China..

why the change of heart?

[SarahFan]

Hopefully a STABLE partner in China. It was pretty obvious that CC never really did the proper due dillignece with the folks they chose to partner with. I am HOPING that the IRL does not make the same mistake.

Gary


skuttlebutt is a 500k seat facility....

[Dr. Krogshöj]

You know what's funny? Just the other day Joe Saward had a rant about the Chinese Grand Prix on Grandprix.com. He figured that Shanghai needed $100 tickets to get the Chinese to attend and 500,000 butts in the seats for the F1 race to make even... Of course, the IRL has much lower sanctioning fees.

[MDS]

Here's the thing... Sponsors don't care so much why people are there, or even if the racing is "Bad." (At least St. Pete had a pass for the lead in the last 20 laps, which is more than Kansas can say.)

Sponsors care about ROI, and they get that through eyeballs on the screen and fans in the stands, and St Pete and Long Beach beat Kansas two to three times on that account.

I say go to those ovals that draw good crowds and provide good racing in good markets.

[indycool]

CC didn't get the track OR the money in China. How's the song go? "A little less talk and a lot more action." All Angstadt has siad is that they're interested. I'm "interested" in Julia Roberts but I'm not expecting her to show up tonight.

[SarahFan]

CC didn't get the track OR the money in China. How's the song go? "A little less talk and a lot more action." All Angstadt has siad is that they're interested. I'm "interested" in Julia Roberts but I'm not expecting her to show up tonight.

I understand that....hindsight with CC etc etc...

but now your advocating to "follow the money'.... well that flies directly in the face of your reasoning regarding CC exploring China.... or there trips to brazil... and finnally europe....

you adamantly claimed going global was competing with F1... and giving sponsors no return on there investment......

you said the same of Australia...



why the change of heart...... has something changed?

has the IRL now found away to make global schedule expansion more attractive to sponsors?..... or is it simply about the bottom line for the IRL(tg)?

[Mark in Oshawa]

We wont see a street race at a new venue for a few years. Fine...doesn't mean one wont reappaear. Toronto was off the market last year and is BACK this year. That counts in my books because Michael Andretti and company had no problem coming back. They see some money to be made obviously. This isn't Molson putting on an event for market exposure. I don't suspect Mikey likes losing money.....

That said, we wont likely see as many street events out there. The costs of putting them on and the cost of sanctioning fee's make most new venues hard to make money out of without civic help, which with this economy isn't going to happen.

However...in a few years if the economy is going strong, you will see a street race in some series if a market wants racing bad enough and doesn't have a good venue handy. Making 1 mile plus ovals is expenseive and NASCAR doesn't give any guarntee's for dates when you build them. Without NASCAR and The IRL, building an oval is a SURE fire recipe for losing money. You cannot say the same about street venues.

[SarahFan]

Did I miss it or was a new US street race announced I don't know about?

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/sports/motor_sports/article/AUTO19N_20090618-220002/274703

looks like it's 90% there...gotta love the fact (or NOT!)that its less than a year away and they dont know whether it will be in the park or on the streets of a new development.... and the second date is a road coarse that 'needs some improvements'.......did these not learn a single thing from the CC/CART mistakes?

gotta admit IC is right.... chase the money... the brazalian ethenal money in this case......dumbdumbdumb

interesting that there has been little talk about the 1/2 million seat facility of in China...

although scuttlebutt is a road coarse in Alabama for 2010....plus the airport in Cleveland

you really got to wonder when another Oval is going to make it on the Schedule

[SarahFan]

and Robin made reference to Robert Kraft wanting to do a race around patriot stadium in 2011.....

YMMV on that one... mine certainly does

[downtowndeco]

Please get back to us when the IRL announces a new street race in the US (see title of thread). As far as I know Ribeirao Preto is in South America.

[SarahFan]

Please get back to us when the IRL announces a new street race in the US (see title of thread). As far as I know Ribeirao Preto is in South America.

saw that coming a mile away.....

[Mark in Oshawa]

http://www.timesdispatch.com/rtd/sports/motor_sports/article/AUTO19N_20090618-220002/274703

looks like it's 90% there...gotta love the fact (or NOT!)that its less than a year away and they dont know whether it will be in the park or on the streets of a new development.... and the second date is a road coarse that 'needs some improvements'.......did these not learn a single thing from the CC/CART mistakes?

gotta admit IC is right.... chase the money... the brazalian ethenal money in this case......dumbdumbdumb

interesting that there has been little talk about the 1/2 million seat facility of in China...

although scuttlebutt is a road coarse in Alabama for 2010....plus the airport in Cleveland

you really got to wonder when another Oval is going to make it on the Schedule

What oval is there that isn't on the sched that should be? Then look back at whether the IRL was there before and failed.

People claim to love the IRL on ovals, but attendance at the track says the road/street courses draw pretty well and often better.

From what I saw of Texas highlights, I wouldn't say that would make me want to pay through the nose to watch it next year. They are not passing as much on the ovals with this package. The box is too tight boys...

[indycool]

Mark, I don't think your attendance statement about street courses in general being more than ovals is accurate. Big crowd at Texas, nice crowds at Kentucky, Iowa,, Chicagoland, Kansas. Then there's Indy.

Ken, we just saw a series try to put something together in China. I've never heard of a half-million seat facility in China, although maybe one exists.

In the case of the Brazilian ethanol money, the Iowa consortium that put together that deal dissolved before it could be re-upped. So, as you and I both said, follow the money. Still, the Iowa ethanol producers organized again and have naming right to Sunday's race. And if you drive across Iowa on I-80, as I did a year ago, ethanol is available and cheaper than gas at every off-ramp.

[NickFalzone]

Both ovals and street courses have had very good attendance this season, it's the tv ratings that have sucked.

[chuck34]

ethanol is available and cheaper than gas at every off-ramp.

Just a quick OT point. Make sure the ethanol is at least 30% cheaper than the gas because it is 30% less efficient, you'll get less gas mileage (at least on flex-fuel cars).

[indyracefan]

What oval is there that isn't on the sched that should be?

New Hampshire and Las Vegas for starters, in the case of these two SMI wants on the schedule.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, I don't think your attendance statement about street courses in general being more than ovals is accurate. Big crowd at Texas, nice crowds at Kentucky, Iowa,, Chicagoland, Kansas. Then there's Indy.

Ken, we just saw a series try to put something together in China. I've never heard of a half-million seat facility in China, although maybe one exists.

In the case of the Brazilian ethanol money, the Iowa consortium that put together that deal dissolved before it could be re-upped. So, as you and I both said, follow the money. Still, the Iowa ethanol producers organized again and have naming right to Sunday's race. And if you drive across Iowa on I-80, as I did a year ago, ethanol is available and cheaper than gas at every off-ramp.

IC...what is the draw at Richmond? What was the draw at Nashville?

Texas, Kentucky, Chicagoland, Kansas all draw pretty well, Tx in particular but how many of those fans there as part of the packages some tracks were pushing you to buy to get the choice on NASCAR seats? Is THAT still going on anywhere?

I dont know, and I wont knock attendance at some of the ovals, and they need to be part of the sport no question. What I have always objected to is this notion street/road races are somehow not worthy, don't draw and are not popular.

[indycool]

From what I've heard, Mark, Nashville filled up but didn't have enough seats and they couldn't make music with the IRL on bucks. Richmond, again, as I hear it, has increased slowly but steadily each year the race has been held and is one of the more solid ones.

As far as the corporate buys and season tickets, etc., go, that's nothing different than what pro sports teams do. To get a season ticket to the Colts where you want it, you hafta take two exhibition games, too. I don't know if they still do it at a couple of those tracks, but the fans there continue to come back.

[NickFalzone]

Milwaukee "supposedly" had the highest attendance for this years IndyCar race that they've had since the CART days, and due to more grandstands added, they claim that this years attendance was the highest ever (non-NASCAR).

[Mark in Oshawa]

From what I've heard, Mark, Nashville filled up but didn't have enough seats and they couldn't make music with the IRL on bucks. Richmond, again, as I hear it, has increased slowly but steadily each year the race has been held and is one of the more solid ones.

As far as the corporate buys and season tickets, etc., go, that's nothing different than what pro sports teams do. To get a season ticket to the Colts where you want it, you hafta take two exhibition games, too. I don't know if they still do it at a couple of those tracks, but the fans there continue to come back.

IC, I would be more impressed if people bought the IRL tickets regardless of whether they wanted NASCAR tickets. Right now, it is the other way around.

I suppose it doesn't matter as long as people are there, but you are not charging a premium for the IRL tickets when you lump them in and force NASCAR fans to buy them.

I think there are more ovals out there the IRL could try to run again. What I want to see, and likely wont see is them to stay on flat ovals such as Phoenix or New Hampshire. I think this car will race its best on that type of oval, just like I believe NASCAR car run better on the short ovals with less banking. I am likely a voice in the wilderness on THAT tho...

[Bob Riebe]

I think there are more ovals out there the IRL could try to run again. What I want to see, and likely wont see is them to stay on flat ovals such as Phoenix or New Hampshire.
I agree, to the point that I think any oval under two miles (pref. two and one-half) really should be barely to non-banked.
The cookie cutter one an one and one-half mile tracks were an obtuse exercise.

[MDS]

From what I've heard, Mark, Nashville filled up but didn't have enough seats and they couldn't make music with the IRL on bucks. Richmond, again, as I hear it, has increased slowly but steadily each year the race has been held and is one of the more solid ones.

Most of Nashville's tickets were sold at a reduced price to Firestone, who in turn sold $20 tickets to their employees. I went a couple of years and always got second hand tickets for about $25.

[DBell]

Something to ponder. It's my opinion that with the demise of the Detroit GP this year & the recent failures of San Jose, Houston, Las Vegas & Phoenix we have seen the last ever new OW street race attempted in the US.

With a few rare exceptions they just don't work. The start up cost is high, you are at the mercy of city politics, the courses are often micky mouse and the "fans" they attract often fair weather fans who don't actually follow the series but are just out for a day of sun and fun.

Does anyone out there think anyone will ever again attempt an OW street race in the U.S.? Or will St. Pete & Long Beach be it?

I saw this today.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-baltimore-added-to-2011-calendar/

Now it's official. I think the question that this thread asked was answered, 1 year and 4 months after this thread was started. An old adage is proven again, never say never.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mr. Bell, the scary reality is it is happening, but the sad fact is it really wont help them as a series. They need a balance of tracks and they need to win traditional fans back. I am thinking adding New Hampshire or Phoenix style tracks would work. Maybe Gateway....

[downtowndeco]

Yes, I was wrong. Surprised, but wrong. : ).


I saw this today.
http://auto-racing.speedtv.com/article/indycar-baltimore-added-to-2011-calendar/

Now it's official. I think the question that this thread asked was answered, 1 year and 4 months after this thread was started. An old adage is proven again, never say never.

[SarahFan]

Yes, I was wrong. Surprised, but wrong. : ).



your the only one suprised.... imagine that

[downtowndeco]

So you speak for everyone now Mr. "Sao Paulo will never see the green flag the IRL will never be able to get a series sponsor with these ratings CCWS will bury the IRL"? : )


your the only one suprised.... imagine that

[SarahFan]

So you speak for everyone now Mr. "Sao Paulo will never see the green flag the IRL will never be able to get a series sponsor with these ratings CCWS will bury the IRL"? : )

but Ive actually been to IRL races....

have you?

[downtowndeco]

Why ask a question you already know the answer to & has been covered many times before?

Again, what makes you think you speak for everyone?


but Ive actually been to IRL races....

have you?

[NaBUru38]

Now, the must policy should be "new temporary course races must only replace others, new cookie-cutter races must only replace others". 6 temporary course races out of 18 is great, but enough. Four cookie-cutters (Motegi and Homestead are two-corner ovals) out of eight ovals is more than enough. Now, Randy, get to bring the IndyCar to more short ovals (New Hampshire, Milwaukee) and road courses (you name them).

[Mark in Oshawa]

Now, the must policy should be "new temporary course races must only replace others, new cookie-cutter races must only replace others". 6 temporary course races out of 18 is great, but enough. Four cookie-cutters (Motegi and Homestead are two-corner ovals) out of eight ovals is more than enough. Now, Randy, get to bring the IndyCar to more short ovals (New Hampshire, Milwaukee) and road courses (you name them).

I hope Randy is operating on keeping some sort of balance. It is what made Indycar unique when they were at the height of their growth.

[nigelred5]

I agree, they need to maintain an equal balance. 20 races, equal street/road/ large/small oval. Just as important, they need to ensure sure the mix is distributed fairly evenly throughought the season as well. You potentially loose viewers when you have streaks of too many road/ street or ovals in a row. I think to fans keeping that mix apparent also underscores the immense challenge to teams and drivers such a schedule presents.

[DanicaFan]

I hope Randy is operating on keeping some sort of balance. It is what made Indycar unique when they were at the height of their growth.

He has already been out of balance...lol. This guy makes me nervous. I talked to many workers at the track during the Month of May, lots of uncertainties and opinions about him and quite a bit werent to good.

[SarahFan]

hmmm....the majority of old school OW fans seem to like what they see so far from randy...


and a guy who thinks Danica is a future Indy500 and daytona 500 and texas pole winner this evening is concerned about his (randys) approach and direction