New rules package likely pushed back to 2012

[DBell]

According BB in Autosport:

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/73126

Looks like 3 more years of the current package. :dozey: Wake me in 2012 and I'll see if I still care.

[philipbain]

There are going to be some very worn out Dallaras out there by the end of 2011!! If they have run from the start of the current generation of chassis (introduced in 2003) then the cars will be a staggering 9 seasons old. Though one suspects that the top teams will have tubs that are somewhat younger, which defeats the object of lengthening the chassis cycle as they are buying new ones anyway.

[nigelred5]

Everyone has to be realistic in the current economic climate. Teams already can't afford the current cost of competition. How in the world can they expect any teams to even anticipate the ability to afford 100% new equipment in '11. Name me 3 automobile companies that haven't seen staggering sales declines that have the juice to invest heavily in new engine development. Nothing is keeping anyone from buying a new Dallara now if they have the coin, and the only thing a new chassis reg is going to change is the number of teams that can't afford to compete due to the cost of a new car. If anything, right now they should be stepping backwards and allowing changes to get a few more G-force chassis back in play. I'd be suprised to learn there are that many 2003 chassis regularly on track. I'd have to believe they are primarily back ups by now, though I know the ex CCWS teams had a few unloaded on them last year out of necessity.

[dataman1]

My concern with a delay is the quote attributed to TG some time ago about the series turning a profit by 2012 or he was pulling the plug. (My date could be off as I could not relocate the previous thread that quoted TG.)

How can ICS continue the same path and turn a profit?

[downtowndeco]

Good move the way the economy is working. Better to batten down the hatches and hold tight for an extra year or two than impose more of a burden on already strapped teams.

Why do I feel if TG announced that they were going to fast track a new package for 2010/11 that some here would be calling him a moron for making the teams buy a new chassis in tough economic times?

This is a classic example of why it is good for a series to be ruled by a czar (or "King" in this case : )) rather than by a couple of wealthy team owners.

[jimispeed]

Shoulda coulda woulda........

Too bad the DP01 wasn't severely tested, and implemented.

It's a joke IMO.

But then again, usually things don't come out too well when you don't utilize all of your assets. Indycar isn't even close to what it could have been by this point. All they had to do was embrace a few more things that were Champcar.........very sad really

[Chamoo]

I agreed, the DP01 was a great formula for CCWS and cost friendly as well. Would had saved a rather large problem if they could had carried them over.

Whoring out my blog again, you can read my opinion and thoughts on the new equipment in my new blog posting.

http://aowrtheotherside.blogspot.com/

[ShiftingGears]

To be frank, that is not good enough.

[DirtDevil5]

my prediction is the new chassis will be introduced in 2000NEVER.
These engine mfg. will fail to materialize,, & Honda will then bail.
With few fans and sponsors left, Then it will be time to pull the IRL plug

Long Live the Vision

[Chris R]

I do not want to wait until 2012 but then again, I cannot see how they can switch before then due to the economic situation.

I think DD might be right on this one - if TG said he was going ahead regardless with new chassis/engine people would be complaining and if he waits until 2012 people will complain.....

The only other option is to roll out the cars in the Indy museum, dust off the Eagles, McLarens, Lightnings, Coyotes, Wildcats, etc. that were in abundance from 1974-1978 - tune up the Offy's and Foyts and use them......

[FIAT1]

Terible!

[Jag_Warrior]

My concern with a delay is the quote attributed to TG some time ago about the series turning a profit by 2012 or he was pulling the plug. (My date could be off as I could not relocate the previous thread that quoted TG.)

How can ICS continue the same path and turn a profit?

I think the year offered was 2013. And IMO, it was a foolish thing for George to say, even if it was said in jest. Introducing doubt about a company's future is never a wise thing to do - especially when the company is involved in a fragile, unstable sector like open wheel auto racing. We'll never know if that statement affected sponsors or manufacturers. But I'm sure George will be pressed for his true financial commitment to the series, as any discussions become more serious.

I don't see that this is a smart move (or a dumb move) on Barnhart and Tony George's part. It's just a necessary move. What choice do they have? Unless IMS is going to fund production of these engines, they have no choice but to push the date back until one or more companies signs on. I was surprised to read in the linked article that no company, not even Honda, has made a formal commitment to a new engine formula. Barnhart mentions that he's waiting on some manufacturer to come on board (for 2011) within the next 60 days. I assume that will be Honda. After Honda, I think there are two more possibilities: Fiat and Porsche/VW/Audi. And from what I've read here and on other sites, Audi seems the most likely.

Fiat has already pushed back its reentry date for North America twice. I only expect to see Fiat (or a major Fiat brand) on board if they can figure out how to build and market vehicles in North America using Chrysler/Jeep plants and showrooms. There was a group of Fiat people touring a Chrysler assembly plant this week. If they can figure out how to retool some of the Chrysler/Jeep plants (and get the U.S. government to help pay for it), or maybe import cars that will sell in this new market, they may come on board with the IRL. If they can't, I doubt they will. Fiat has issues much bigger than whether they join the IRL or not.

But if I read Barnhart's words correctly, we should see who the first serious player is in the next 60 days.

[vintage]

I was a Champ Car fan, and was intimately involved in the Atlantic Series. That said, I have accepted the following:

Champ Car is gone

The DP01, which appeared to be a fine race car, is not an option for the only remaining "top level" AOWR Series, which is the IRL

Having more than one "top level" AOWR Series has proven to be bad economically for AOWR, therefore I prefer there only be one - and at this point, it is the IRL.

The IRL has adopted a philosophy, at this point, of having a diverse mix of oval, road course, and street races. It seems to me that learning and/or demonstrating the skills needed to master each type of course makes this series as challenging as any in the world (not withstanding the talent pool). Ditto for the FIL

Atlantics is a great series, and while I hope it survives, it's going to tough in their current state to sustain their model, unless Ben decides he wants to continue to fund the prize money, etc. Hopefully he'll be there for the series until it fully find's its niche. I am sure the $1m/$500k prize will cause a number of drivers to re-think their FIL direction, although at the same time, they'll be spending FIL money to get a good Atlantic ride.

Most complaints that people have are more rooted in the fact that this is not champ car than any logic or thoughtful discourse. Almost all of the complaints that people have would have applied equally to champ car (no USAC drivers, too many foreigners/not enough Americans, ride buyers, spec cars, not at my favorite track, TG/KK/GF/PG are a-holes, etc. etc.)

If the IRL fails, there will likely not be a top level AOWR Series for some time. Is that what the critics really want?

[downtowndeco]

If the IRL fails, there will likely not be a top level AOWR Series for some time. Is that what the critics really want?

Absolutely. Some of the CC fans would rather have no OW racing in the US rather than have to admit that TG/the IRL outsmarted/outspent/outlasted CART/CCWS. No question in my mind.

[CCWS77]

It really is interesting the way the argument is preemptively defined. If the racing that is spawned from Indy was gone then that means all racing must be dead. Therefore criticizing the IRL means you are not really a race fan and are illogical and bitter.

Some of us feel liberated and able to criticize the IRL because we are not bound by this faulty notion.

[DirtDevil5]

It really is interesting the way the argument is preemptively defined. If the racing that is spawned from Indy was gone then that means all racing must be dead. Therefore criticizing the IRL means you are not really a race fan and are illogical and bitter.

Some of us feel liberated and able to criticize the IRL because we are not bound by this faulty notion.

Also,, the ruler of IRL,I500 is a certifiable lunatic...

[Rex Monaco]

Failing to plan, is planning to fail.

It's really nice that the IRL is looking to the future for a new engine formula. They should be.

The problem I have, is that they started this process a few years too late. When Toyota left, this should have been their number one priority. But by dragging their feet, they are now faced with doing it in the middle of an economic crisis.

So now the fans that are left have to watch the 2009, 2010 and 2011 seasons being run yet again as a Honda spec series. So exactly how is this series going to grow? Truthfully, how are anyone but diehard IRListas and hardcore racing fans (the guys who will watch mud bogging or snow machine racing just to get their fix) going to be excited about this type of racing for next 3 years?

They should immediatley change the rules to allow anyone to dust off an IRL spec engine and enter it under any branding they choose.

Otherwise, this series *might* survive until 2012. But instead of being near the end of their recovery, they will be at the very beginning of the rebuilding process.

[Rex Monaco]

No question in my mind.

Unquestioning faith in any leader, business or political, is really scary to me.

[Wilf]

Less than a year ago, there were two series and no one knew which one was going to be around by the end of the year. In that environment, do you really think any manufacturer would have been interested in investing the millions necessary to develop a racing engine. You can ask all you want to but unless you have Barney Frank saying it is a sure thing, no manufacturer is going to wager on such a risky venture.

Just prior to the start of the 2008 season CCWS goes away and in a very short period of time the orphaned teams join the remaining series, are provided with competitive equipment and race the schedule. Amazingly, at their first opportunity, the IRL asks manufacturers to look at the possibility of providing an engine to compete with Honda and several bite.

Unfortunately, some other people listened to Barney Frank, made stupid home mortgages and now were are in the middle of a financial meltdown. From what I've read, it's not the IRL saying they don't want a new engine until 2012, they are reacting to what the manufacturers are telling them; the manufacturers might not be able to commit the funds necessary to produce a competitive engine by 2011.

Get real, it is financially ugly out there in the real world. Read what is happening and understand that your desires are not always practical and might not be possible.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Absolutely. Some of the CC fans would rather have no OW racing in the US rather than have to admit that TG/the IRL outsmarted/outspent/outlasted CART/CCWS. No question in my mind.


Believe what you want, but let it go. Tony didn't outsmart the CCWS, they shot themselves in both feet. Mulitple times.

Ok. Back on topic. Should the IRL have had another chassis and engine formula on the table by now? Oh yes, in an ideal world but as Wilf very nicely pointed out, there was too much uncertainty in the marketplace for cars and engines for this form of racing. Yet another example of how the split really was bad economically for AOWR. No chassis maker could really offer up a good price based on 22 cars or less in a series week in, week out. If you have 26 or 30 entries (40 plus for Indy perhaps) then your economies of scale change and the market changes for these cars. The DP-01 was a beautiful car but it cost a LOT to the teams of Champ Car and that is money that is basically gone forever. Like I said..shot in both feet......

The IRL is now one series and it is a clear picture on who is in or out for the most part, money willing. The economy is now the issue, and if the car makers are pushing it back til 2012 then as Wilf pointed out (smart fella you were on THAT post Wilf) then that is the reality and no amount of whining by self appointed internet geniuses will change that.

I think if in the 2012 season we have multiple engine packages and a couple of chassis designs

[downtowndeco]

Believe what you want, but let it go. Tony didn't outsmart the CCWS, they shot themselves in both feet. Mulitple times.


I should have made it clearer. It was a multipul choice answer. TG either; A. Oustsmarted, B. Outspent or C. Just plain outlasted CCWS. Take your choice. Cheers.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Deco, B and a bit of C. If he was so smart he would have found a way to work with CART all along. THAT would have been better for everyone....Oh well, water under the bridge for sure, we have to row in the same boat now....

[downtowndeco]

Fair enough. But if CC management was so much more superior and better positioned to run OW racing (as CC fans always seem to tell us) then they, likewise should have found a way to work with TG. Instead they rebuffed every effort to work together and even when it was clear to absoutely everyone that there was only room for one OW series they picked up the CW banner and plodded ahead dividing OWR for another 3 1/2 years.

But like you said, that's all water under the bridge. I respect that we have differences of opinion about who did what to who etc. That's the last I'll say on this, if you like, please, have the last word. Cheers!



Deco, B and a bit of C. If he was so smart he would have found a way to work with CART all along. THAT would have been better for everyone....Oh well, water under the bridge for sure, we have to row in the same boat now....

[garyshell]

Fair enough. But if CC management was so much more superior and better positioned to run OW racing (as CC fans always seem to tell us)

There you go again with that broad brush. Clearly Mark and I were/are big fans of the old CC series. And clearly we (and many others here) say that CC shot itself in the foot on numerous occasions.

Gary

[Rex Monaco]

...likewise should have found a way to work with TG. Instead they rebuffed every effort to work together..

And likewise, TG rebuffed all attempts to work together.

[Rex Monaco]

Less than a year ago, there were two series and no one knew which one was going to be around by the end of the year.

Toyota announced they were leaving the IRL in mid-2005. The economy was good enough back then, that Toyota jumped into an expensive new NASCAR program just to help it sell more trucks.

And if it was the uncertaintity of the OW split that kept the IRL from seeking any new participants, then the IRL should have made unification a priority in 2005.

Instead we got a comment that having one engine maker would help them save costs. Huh??

So yes it's really great they are looking for more participants right now. But there would be no need to it, if they had taken this action back in 2005 when it was just as important to the health of the series!

It's this history of inaction and/or misaction that does not give me a very good feeling about the future of AOWR under the IRL's stewardship.

[Rex Monaco]

There you go again with that broad brush. Clearly Mark and I were/are big fans of the old CC series. And clearly we (and many others here) say that CC shot itself in the foot on numerous occasions.

Gary

And CART before it!

Everyone was shooting themselves in the foot. It was like it was foot hunting season!

And I have as much confidence in congress fixing the mess they created, as I do the IRL repairing the damage they caused.

[garyshell]

And CART before it!

Everyone was shooting themselves in the foot. It was like it was foot hunting season!

And I have as much confidence in congress fixing the mess they created, as I do the IRL repairing the damage they caused.


Actually I meant to include CART in that comment.

Gary

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fair enough. But if CC management was so much more superior and better positioned to run OW racing (as CC fans always seem to tell us) then they, likewise should have found a way to work with TG. Instead they rebuffed every effort to work together and even when it was clear to absoutely everyone that there was only room for one OW series they picked up the CW banner and plodded ahead dividing OWR for another 3 1/2 years.

But like you said, that's all water under the bridge. I respect that we have differences of opinion about who did what to who etc. That's the last I'll say on this, if you like, please, have the last word. Cheers!

The last word was CART in 1995 didn't need to change much to accomodate Tony if they had listened to him in 93. That said, I think he had people telling him it was possible to create the IRL and do what he did. CART's flaming out 5 years later doesn't change that. I said in 95 only one series would be doable ( this forum didn't exist then obviously so you can take my word on that) CART was managed by idiots from about Heitzler on. CCWS had a slim chance but they had to redefine what they were and identify a market. They never did.....

The key thing is now we are back under one roof and I think Tony learned a lot in the last 13 years. What is more, the teams and sponsors did as well. There is a need now to hold tight and get through this economic recession and consolidate what Indy Car racing is and where it should go. They have a decent roster of events, most are partners who have had some experience with this form of racing and the cities involved have supported the events in the past. Slow and steady will grow things if they can find a way to get fans back and identify future opportunties.

The engine package being open to competition and the chassis variety has to come back I think we all agree, so as long as the right people manage this and create rules to allow just enough competition on this score, then in time the racing will become more interesting to follow, attract more factory support and THAT is the way to grow.

The first lesson we all can agree on is the need for unity and listening to all the options before making decisions. THAT was the first thing that didn't happen before. CART would create new events on the fly, spend money they didn't have and it flamed out. CCWS did the same even with some of the events having an intersting novelty factor. The IRL had their experiments in events and venues and they too were not often reseached well enough. NOW we have a sched with 17 pretty good solid events, a variety of tracks, and we need to first start replacing the car as soon as economically viable. THAT is the first step. From there....slow and steady eh?

[pits4me]

And clearly we (and many others here) say that CC shot itself in the foot on numerous occasions.

Gary

Not hard to do when they spent as much money defending their territory as they did trying to expand it. The DP01 was a ray of hope but not the magic bullet we OW fans yearned for.

[Jag_Warrior]

Not hard to do when they spent as much money defending their territory as they did trying to expand it. The DP01 was a ray of hope but not the magic bullet we OW fans yearned for.

In all honesty, while I agreed that it was time to update the formula, I never understood why so many CCWS fans felt that the Panoz DP-01 would be any sort of a magic bullet.

Whether from a cost or appearance standpoint, I just couldn't understand what major improvement that car (by itself, I mean) was going to bring to the table.

Maybe the IRL is learning from the DP-01 lesson. The current Dallara is anything but an attractive formula car in the eyes of most. But is getting a new car going to make the IRL suddenly popular, if nothing else really changes?

[ShiftingGears]

In all honesty, while I agreed that it was time to update the formula, I never understood why so many CCWS fans felt that the Panoz DP-01 would be any sort of a magic bullet.

Whether from a cost or appearance standpoint, I just couldn't understand what major improvement that car (by itself, I mean) was going to bring to the table.

Maybe the IRL is learning from the DP-01 lesson. The current Dallara is anything but an attractive formula car in the eyes of most. But is getting a new car going to make the IRL suddenly popular, if nothing else really changes?

Personally, I never thought the DP-01 exploited the potential of a spec series formula nearly as much as it could have.

[Chamoo]

Personally, I never thought the DP-01 exploited the potential of a spec series formula nearly as much as it could have.

Just curious, could you expand on that comment please? I'm just curious in which ways.

[jimispeed]

The DP01.......a super sexy car that retained the lines of it's former self. Had bugs for the first quarter of the season (expected for a new car), and was faster than it's former. Excellent car that unfortunately never got to realize its potential.


Very sad

[ShiftingGears]

Just curious, could you expand on that comment please? I'm just curious in which ways.

I thought it could've took the series in a bold direction by having an open-wheeler without front or rear wings, while retaining the high amount of engine power. What this would achieve would be higher speeds on the straights and lower in the corners, firstly, increasing safety, and also introducing more overtaking opportunities around the circuits.

The cars would be able to follow each other closer, enabling more overtaking opportunities for a faster car behind a slower one, as they wouldn't be reliant of aero grip which is lost by the dirty wake of the car that it is trailing.

That's what I see the potential of a spec series to be.

[garyshell]

I thought it could've took the series in a bold direction by having an open-wheeler without front or rear wings, while retaining the high amount of engine power. What this would achieve would be higher speeds on the straights and lower in the corners, firstly, increasing safety, and also introducing more overtaking opportunities around the circuits.

The cars would be able to follow each other closer, enabling more overtaking opportunities for a faster car behind a slower one, as they wouldn't be reliant of aero grip which is lost by the dirty wake of the car that it is trailing.

That's what I see the potential of a spec series to be.


You were NOT the only one hoping for something like this. I am still convinced that if the public actually got to see the drivers really drive the cars, the popularity of AWOR would rise quickly. Seeing a bit of oversteer, with the driver sawing a bit at the wheel would make a real connection with even a casual fan. As it is now most series have cars that look like they are on rails, they appear to be machines with a human inside. What is needed are humans with machines strapped onto them. That is the connection that has been lost over the past twenty plus years.

Gary

[Mad_Hatter]

Since the conversation is on chassis, does anyone else think it might be a good idea to use the same chassis for both the ILS and the ICS? The difference being more areas allowed to be developed on the Indycars and obviously engines. More parts produced means lower costs right? ILS teams would be able to move up with a lower financial commitment as compared to totally different tubs and a move like this might also ensure high car counts for both the series. Are the dimensions on the two formulas currently the similar?



Don't mean to hijack or anything the thought just crossed my mind.

[Jag_Warrior]

Since the conversation is on chassis, does anyone else think it might be a good idea to use the same chassis for both the ILS and the ICS? The difference being more areas allowed to be developed on the Indycars and obviously engines. More parts produced means lower costs right? ILS teams would be able to move up with a lower financial commitment as compared to totally different tubs and a move like this might also ensure high car counts for both the series. Are the dimensions on the two formulas currently the similar?

I think it would be the absolute right thing to do. IMO, what Formula One has done, by making the GP2 chassis basically a less powerful version of a generic F1 car, helps the drivers moving up be better prepared for F1, or any other open wheel formula. The fact that Mike Conway, a sort of middling GP2 driver, could come here and be at the top of the IRL time sheets right off the bat, does say something for doing it that way.

I also think that you're correct, that there would be an economy of scale cost savings.

[pits4me]

Many thought CC could repeat the success of the Atlantic Rebirth from the prior season. The DP-01 chassis was just a part of the picture. Keeping marquee drivers and sponsors was equally important.


In all honesty, while I agreed that it was time to update the formula, I never understood why so many CCWS fans felt that the Panoz DP-01 would be any sort of a magic bullet.

Whether from a cost or appearance standpoint, I just couldn't understand what major improvement that car (by itself, I mean) was going to bring to the table.

Maybe the IRL is learning from the DP-01 lesson. The current Dallara is anything but an attractive formula car in the eyes of most. But is getting a new car going to make the IRL suddenly popular, if nothing else really changes?

[Jag_Warrior]

I thought it could've took the series in a bold direction by having an open-wheeler without front or rear wings, while retaining the high amount of engine power. What this would achieve would be higher speeds on the straights and lower in the corners, firstly, increasing safety, and also introducing more overtaking opportunities around the circuits.

The cars would be able to follow each other closer, enabling more overtaking opportunities for a faster car behind a slower one, as they wouldn't be reliant of aero grip which is lost by the dirty wake of the car that it is trailing.

That's what I see the potential of a spec series to be.

Right. The DP-01 seemed more evolutionary than revolutionary. Outside of the hardcore fans, there was nothing about it that made it anything more than a face in the crowd.

It seemed like a really good chassis design. But... then what?

[Wilf]

Since the conversation is on chassis, does anyone else think it might be a good idea to use the same chassis for both the ILS and the ICS? The difference being more areas allowed to be developed on the Indycars and obviously engines. More parts produced means lower costs right? ILS teams would be able to move up with a lower financial commitment as compared to totally different tubs and a move like this might also ensure high car counts for both the series. Are the dimensions on the two formulas currently the similar?



Don't mean to hijack or anything the thought just crossed my mind.

That is an interesting idea; deserves it's own thread.

[jimispeed]

Right. The DP-01 seemed more evolutionary than revolutionary. Outside of the hardcore fans, there was nothing about it that made it anything more than a face in the crowd.

It seemed like a really good chassis design. But... then what?


Well, it looked great, was faster than the previous car even in it's first year, and was less expensive. Never got the chance to even test on an oval.

What a waste of a great car! The drivers loved it, and that should be the ultimate prescription for a race car.

[coogmaster]

Well, it looked great, was faster than the previous car even in it's first year, and was less expensive. Never got the chance to even test on an oval.

What a waste of a great car! The drivers loved it, and that should be the ultimate prescription for a race car.

Anyone have a picture of a DP with some speedway wings? Probably doesn't exist I'm sure, but it would look pretty badass.

[jimispeed]

Anyone have a picture of a DP with some speedway wings? Probably doesn't exist I'm sure, but it would look pretty badass.

Anybody who's great in photoshop could do it. Care to try
anybody???

I wish it would have been tested.......

[Jag_Warrior]

Well, it looked great, was faster than the previous car even in it's first year, and was less expensive. Never got the chance to even test on an oval.

What a waste of a great car! The drivers loved it, and that should be the ultimate prescription for a race car.

Oh, I agree. It was a very sound car.

But like Pits said, I think it was just one part of the equation, and it seems they sort of forgot about addressing the other parts.