S2000 fast enough for wrc?

[Brother John]

Look at he Monte Carlo now and doesn't this go fast enough?
S2000 is a real rallycar and i hope there comes none S2000+ what they then call wrccar.
WRC championship would have to be open for all S2000 cars, I, however, want to see private teams win rallies in the wrc? :s mokin:

[Barreis]

WRC cars are much faster.. With turbo kit why not..

[Rally Power]

Brother John, there have been enough discussion (even at this forum) about the appropriated category for WRChampionship, and S2000+ seems to be a reasonable choice.

Problem now it’s that time is beginning to be short in order to get S2000+ ready for the 2010 season, and maintain the WRC cars until 2011 is suicidal, because it can never attract more manufacturers into WRC.

Only in that sense, and if FIA isn’t able to produce without delay the new regulations, I would agree with you in letting S2000 became the main category at WRC (like it was suggested at last November WMSC).

Let’s way, see and hope for a wise and quick decision... :s mokin:

[Brother John]

WRC cars are much faster.. With turbo kit why not..

Applause for Barreis, you are therefore someone whom does not get it. :rolleyes:

[RS]

This would be quite a good move for WRC, so it probably won't happen.

We are nearly at the end of January and there is still no confirmed news of next year's regs and there seems some doubt as to whether they are workable.

There are already 3 manufacturer official S2000s and many more private/semi official cars around.

Could just axe WRC altogether and Ford and Citroen can come and play in IRC instead ;)

[Simmi]

Hopefully the good reception of the Monte this week will push the FIA into going the S2000 route. Then once the teams are comfortable with the platform after maybe 2 seasons they can think about adding a bit more power.

It just doesn't seem right to exclude all the machines out there from top competition when the WRC is trying to rebuild itself. If an evolution of the S2000 gets put forward you will end up with just two manufacturers with the top cars, just the same as it is now.

[TKM]

Look at he Monte Carlo now and doesn't this go fast enough?
S2000 is a real rallycar and i hope there comes none S2000+ what they then call wrccar.
WRC championship would have to be open for all S2000 cars, I, however, want to see private teams win rallies in the wrc? :s mokin:

No way. I couldn't watch all of that IRC footage of Monte, I got bored with it, the cars are way too slow. Particulary on tarmac, they lack the torque of the turbo cars. It needs to be S2000+ otherwise it's going to send us all to sleep.

Interesting though how people reckon the S2000's are great but Group N is boring, considering they're are suppose to be equivalent (apart for the price). They may sound more spectacular, but after a while they all sound the same and it all gets a bit monotonous.

[Sulland]

Here is my proposal for way ahead:


2009-2010: Final refinement of the + kit regulations
2011-2012: Development and test of the + kit for the manufacurers
2013: S2000+ will take over as WRC, S2000 continues as the car both for P-WRC and J-WRC.

So if this was done S2000 would be the cartype for WRC from 2010 until start 2013.

[Wim_Impreza]

No way. I couldn't watch all of that IRC footage of Monte, I got bored with it, the cars are way too slow. Particulary on tarmac, they lack the torque of the turbo cars. It needs to be S2000+ otherwise it's going to send us all to sleep.

I agree. The S2000 cars are really not good when they come out a slow corner or a hairpin. The spectacle is not there too, even a Group N is more spectacular.

[Gard]

I agree. The S2000 cars are really not good when they come out a slow corner or a hairpin. The spectacle is not there too, even a Group N is more spectacular.

Agree, but be careful Wim. the s2000 hypers will attack you. s2000 will kill rally as a sport and only the die hard rallyfans will follow.

Joe Public will forget that rally ever existed

[RS]

Agree, but be careful Wim. the s2000 hypers will attack you. s2000 will kill rally as a sport and only the die hard rallyfans will follow.

Joe Public will forget that rally ever existed

Didn't that happen already?

[RS]

Interesting though how people reckon the S2000's are great but Group N is boring,

"The car is fantastic, no problem. After a long time in Group N car, it's nice to get into this Skoda which feels like a real rally car!" - Juho Hanninen.

[AndyRAC]

Agree, but be careful Wim. the s2000 hypers will attack you. s2000 will kill rally as a sport and only the die hard rallyfans will follow.

Joe Public will forget that rally ever existed

Joe Public already has forgotten it existed.

There are currently more Manufacturers with S2000 cars than WRCars - I'd do as already said. Start with S2000, then develop the kit over a period of time, then introduce it.
People say S2000's are boring, but they do need driving to get quick times, unlike WRCars - which do all the work for you. Personally, I think the likes of Wilson, al Qassimi and Rautenbach would be even further off the pace in a S2000.
The current WRCars are fantastic pieces of kit, but too expensive and far too good. Basically, they've killed the sport. The S2000 era could be like 1987 Group A era - a start.

[A.F.F.]

Hats off to you Andy and RS. You still have energy to explain. :up:

But I think these whiners are here only to wind things up.

[MikeD]

Joe Public already has forgotten it existed.

There are currently more Manufacturers with S2000 cars than WRCars - I'd do as already said. Start with S2000, then develop the kit over a period of time, then introduce it.
People say S2000's are boring, but they do need driving to get quick times, unlike WRCars - which do all the work for you. Personally, I think the likes of Wilson, al Qassimi and Rautenbach would be even further off the pace in a S2000.
The current WRCars are fantastic pieces of kit, but too expensive and far too good. Basically, they've killed the sport. The S2000 era could be like 1987 Group A era - a start.

I agree to some extend. Problem for me is that while the IRC event in Monte is indeed very good, then it's the first time the IRC has been able to keep my attention, and to be honest then I think it's becasue it's the Monte Carlo rally and because of the weather conditions. All the other IRC event I have tried to follow, I simply god bored because I still think the cars are slow and unspectacluar - and the drivers mediocre.

So I would personally not be satisfied with just S2000 and I think a lot of other rally fans would find it too boring and unspectacluar as well. So I hope that 2010 will be a clean cut where S2000+ will replace the current WRC cars, but maybe that is not likely. The only thing that can make it happen, is if the WMSC decides (in next weeks meeting) that only S2000+ cars will be able to score Manu points in 2010. That would force Citroën and Ford to replace their WRC cars for next year.

So fingers crossed for the next WMSC meeting. Maybe the IRC event in Monte will make them realise the challenge that the WRC is facing at the moment.

[urabus-denoS2000]

If people kept watching rallying from 500 BHP group B to 240 BHP Delta they will surely watch from WRC to S2000..... :D

[RS]

In reality, I think the S2000 cars are not a lot slower than the WRCs and I think you will see this if Kopecky and Hanninen run any WRC events this year.

I think Monte has proved there is not a great deal of difference in speed between WRC and IRC drivers. Sure Ogier and Gardemeister are currently 1-2, which kind of goes against my point, but SS10 was the first stage Ogier won and Gardemeister has not won a single stage.

It is interesting that the biggest opposition to IRC usually comes from people from countries who have no drivers in the series ;)

[MikeD]

In reality, I think the S2000 cars are not a lot slower than the WRCs and I think you will see this if Kopecky and Hanninen run any WRC events this year.

Well we can always compare the fastest WRC car vs. The fastest S2000 from the few WRC events in 2008 where there was a relatively good S2000 driver.


Rally GB 2008.
After day 2 the difference was 8 min 10 sec between Latvala and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 13th place)


Rally Turkey 2008.
After day 3 the difference was 21 min 3 sec between Hirvonen and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 12th place)


Rally Greece 2008.
After day 2 the difference was 42 min 14 sec between Loeb and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 32nd place)


To me that’s some differences, so I would say there is some significant speed difference between a WRC car and a S2000 car.



I think Monte has proved there is not a great deal of difference in speed between WRC and IRC drivers.

It's only due to the slippery surface. Had it been a dry Monte event then the difference would have been huge.

[Mitch555]

Well we can always compare the fastest WRC car vs. The fastest S2000 from the few WRC events in 2008 where there was a relatively good S2000 driver.


Rally GB 2008.
After day 2 the difference was 8 min 10 sec between Latvala and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 13th place)


Rally Turkey 2008.
After day 3 the difference was 21 min 3 sec between Hirvonen and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 12th place)


Rally Greece 2008.
After day 2 the difference was 42 min 14 sec between Loeb and Sandell (fastest WRC in 1st place and fastest S2000 in 32nd place)


I don't think thats a fair comparison considering Sandell was pretty much the only s2000 car in the field and your comparing against far superior machinery which has been tested many times, has manufacturer support and is driven by better drivers (up for debate).

Research for Greece also shows that Sandell has Supe-Rallied Day 2 and was losing approx 6 and a half minutes a stage... Bizarre why you'd compare a Supe-Rallying S2000 with a WRC car.

One of the key things I know is that the PWRC drivers have to get the maximum out of their cars to win a PWRC stage. At times this year, lower order WRC drivers have been beaten by PWRC drivers...

I think S2000 is fast enough. Funnily enough Group N has come a long way. When the Australian championship banned WRCars from competing as only two people used them, people said the times of those cars would never be challenged, especially considering they were set by the great driers in Possum Bourne and Neal Bates, both who drove for factory teams in WRC. This was in 2001 and by 2004 the group N cars were beating these times.

As has been said before, if early group A was fast enough when there were Mazda Familias, Deltas, Volkswagen Golfs, Renault 11s and Ford Sierras, I'm sure S2000 can be. If people can see that manufacturers could come back who have S2000 cars like Peugeot, FIAT, Skoda, Toyota, Proton, MG etc. it would do wonders for the sport, increase the depth of the entry lists and it'll be like the 90s when a privateer could challenge the factory guys and get a chance to try and get a drive in a manufacturer team, which it is really hard to do now days.

[Daniel]

I don't think thats a fair comparison considering Sandell was pretty much the only s2000 car in the field and your comparing against far superior machinery which has been tested many times, has manufacturer support and is driven by better drivers (up for debate).

Research for Greece also shows that Sandell has Supe-Rallied Day 2 and was losing approx 6 and a half minutes a stage... Bizarre why you'd compare a Supe-Rallying S2000 with a WRC car.

One of the key things I know is that the PWRC drivers have to get the maximum out of their cars to win a PWRC stage. At times this year, lower order WRC drivers have been beaten by PWRC drivers...

I think S2000 is fast enough. Funnily enough Group N has come a long way. When the Australian championship banned WRCars from competing as only two people used them, people said the times of those cars would never be challenged, especially considering they were set by the great driers in Possum Bourne and Neal Bates, both who drove for factory teams in WRC. This was in 2001 and by 2004 the group N cars were beating these times.

As has been said before, if early group A was fast enough when there were Mazda Familias, Deltas, Volkswagen Golfs, Renault 11s and Ford Sierras, I'm sure S2000 can be. If people can see that manufacturers could come back who have S2000 cars like Peugeot, FIAT, Skoda, Toyota, Proton, MG etc. it would do wonders for the sport, increase the depth of the entry lists and it'll be like the 90s when a privateer could challenge the factory guys and get a chance to try and get a drive in a manufacturer team, which it is really hard to do now days.

All very true well other than saying Neal Bates was a great driver but sadly some people just have some irrational hatred for the IRC :crazy:

Sure the cars aren't as fast as WRCars but look at how close the guys are and how they're swapping stage victories and finding the cars difficult to drive and you'll see that raw pace doesn't matte all that much.

[AndyRAC]

I can't understand this irrational hatred of the IRC. Why? People need to take their heads out of the sand. The WRC is on it's backside, and has been for a few years. Loeb's a great driver - but you know what will happen this year, and we haven't even started.
Let's be honest, all the WRC has, is the history, the name, and 4-5 drivers.

[JFL]

"S2000 fast enough for WRC?" I guess the same question was raised when the Gr.B cars was banned! "Gr.A cars fast enough for the world rally championship?" It did'nt took a long time before the pace they set was equal with the gr.B cars.. Not so spectacular but, even so...

[TKM]

In reality, I think the S2000 cars are not a lot slower than the WRCs and I think you will see this if Kopecky and Hanninen run any WRC events this year.

S2000 was introduced to allow manufacturers that didn't have a Group N homologated vehicle to build something comparative to compete at the same level.

If a S2000 are a similar pace to a WRC car (which I seriously doubt) then so should Group N cars. If it is in fact the case, then there is something seriously wrong with the S2000 rules.

At least Wim_Impreza got my point. The cars just simply don't have the grunt out of the tighter corners. They're all about revs and power, they have very little torque. To maintain their speed, they need to be driven in the upper rev range the entire time, you can't do that in the tight stuff, particularly on dry tarmac.

Oh, and I'm not knocking the IRC. I simply said I find S2000 less exciting than WRC vehicles, and even Group N for that matter. And I happened to state why I thought so, so I can hardly be called a whiner. S2000 is a good forumla and is very competitive (much more so than the current WRC), but it needs something more for the WRC level. Hence S2000+

[Daniel]

I can't understand this irrational hatred of the IRC. Why? People need to take their heads out of the sand. The WRC is on it's backside, and has been for a few years. Loeb's a great driver - but you know what will happen this year, and we haven't even started.
Let's be honest, all the WRC has, is the history, the name, and 4-5 drivers.

For some people it's all about the name sadly. For me honestly I don't care as long as the competition is good.

[Daniel]

S2000 was introduced to allow manufacturers that didn't have a Group N homologated vehicle to build something comparative to compete at the same level.

If a S2000 are a similar pace to a WRC car (which I seriously doubt) then so should Group N cars. If it is in fact the case, then there is something seriously wrong with the S2000 rules.

At least Wim_Impreza got my point. The cars just simply don't have the grunt out of the tighter corners. They're all about revs and power, they have very little torque. To maintain their speed, they need to be driven in the upper rev range the entire time, you can't do that in the tight stuff, particularly on dry tarmac.

Well of course. Tbh WRCars don't have enough power to be driven at maximum speed on the straight bits in a place like Finland. A WRC+rocket formula would make them faster :rolleyes:

Of course the cars are a compromise, they always have been since group b was banned. It is compromises which make a series viable in terms of cost. If you were seeing the coverage we are getting you wouldn't be all that bothered I suspect.

What is better? A field full of slightly compromised cars or 4 WRCars and a few guys who pay to drive? :mark: Compromise is where it's at and it's what will make the IRC a successful series.

[feresc13]

Maybe they aren't fast enough, but they are more spectacular than WRCar on tarmac.

[TKM]

Well of course. Tbh WRCars don't have enough power to be driven at maximum speed on the straight bits in a place like Finland. A WRC+rocket formula would make them faster :rolleyes:

You're such a patronising tool, I don’t know how you get away with it so often on this forum, you must be taking it up the arse from the moderators. You've completely taken what I said out of context, and then you couldn’t get it right anyway. I said S2000 and S2000+, not World Rally Championship cars.

Oh, sorry I forgot. You’ve spectated at a couple of rallies so you’re an expert on all things rally.

[Daniel]

You're such a patronising tool, I don’t know how you get away with it so often on this forum, you must be taking it up the arse from the moderators. You've completely taken what I said out of context, and then you couldn’t get it right anyway. I said S2000 and S2000+, not World Rally Championship cars.

Oh, sorry I forgot. You’ve spectated at a couple of rallies so you’re an expert on all things rally.

Wow nice way to fly off the handle. All I was saying is that WRCars are not as fast as they could be either. Every series is about compromises.

Oh sorry I forgot you've driven on a couple of rallies so you're an expert on all things rally.

[TKM]

Oh sorry I forgot you've driven on a couple of rallies so you're an expert on all things rally.
Actually I've competed for over 20 years, as well as officialled at all levels of the sport, and directed events. Oh, and I also spectate occassionally, but obviously not as much as you, so I can't class myself an expert like yourself.

[Daniel]

Actually I've competed for over 20 years, as well as officialled at all levels of the sport, and directed events. Oh, and I also spectate occassionally, but obviously not as much as you, so I can't class myself an expert like yourself.

Seriously I'm not bothered about who has the bigger rally-penis dude.....

[Brother John]

Agree, but be careful Wim. the s2000 hypers will attack you. s2000 will kill rally as a sport and only the die hard rallyfans will follow.
Joe Public will forget that rally ever existed

I thought that wrc cars already kill the rally sport.
Die hard rallyfans follow already the developments of S2000 and IRC, in fact I miss in the IRC thread only some real die hard WRC fans. ;)

There were in WRC 4 factory teams, of which 2 real!!! only 1 real fatory team still exists, "yes Citroën" and Suzuki left.
Prodrive and RS Motorsport or 2 companies which must make money with rally or motor sport. That is the 2 companies which do not want to change wrc cars.

Incredibly that I sit on the same line as Daniel here. :D

[AndyRAC]

I thought that wrc cars already kill the rally sport.
Die hard rallyfans follow already the developments of S2000 and IRC, in fact I miss in the IRC thread only some real die hard WRC fans. ;)

There were in WRC 4 factory teams, of which 2 real!!! only 1 real fatory team still exists, "yes Citroën" and Suzuki left.
Prodrive and RS Motorsport or 2 companies which must make money with rally or motor sport. That is the 2 companies which do not want to change wrc cars.

Incredibly that I sit on the same line as Daniel here. :D

Quite right - there are just 4 works seats!! The rest are 'pay seats' which pad the entries out. Thats just fantastic - this is meant to be a World Championship!
If I was Petter/Proton - I'd do a combination of the best events from IRC/WRC.

[Daniel]

I thought that wrc cars already kill the rally sport.
Die hard rallyfans follow already the developments of S2000 and IRC, in fact I miss in the IRC thread only some real die hard WRC fans. ;)

You're wasting your breath on these people :)

How the **** will S2000 kill off rallying? I don't get that :mark: John is quite right, modern WRCars built since about 2003 started to kill the WRC off even then and since about 2006 or so they've made it quite boring to watch. Yeah WRCars have more torque low down but you wouldn't know it with the lack of oversteer around corners......

[RS]

It's only due to the slippery surface. Had it been a dry Monte event then the difference would have been huge.

Disagree again. Dry Monte would have seen Vouilloz, Basso, Kopecky, Rossetti in their element.

[RS]

Monte 2007: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/monte%2Bcarlo/video/x10oko_rallye-monte-carlo-2007-stage3_auto

I rest my case.

[Gard]

I thought that wrc cars already kill the rally sport.
Die hard rallyfans follow already the developments of S2000 and IRC, in fact I miss in the IRC thread only some real die hard WRC fans. ;)

There were in WRC 4 factory teams, of which 2 real!!! only 1 real fatory team still exists, "yes Citroën" and Suzuki left.
Prodrive and RS Motorsport or 2 companies which must make money with rally or motor sport. That is the 2 companies which do not want to change wrc cars.

Incredibly that I sit on the same line as Daniel here. :D

I don't think WRC is too expensive, ok maybe it is, but the biggest problem is lack of payback for the manufactorers. The media coverage for WRC has been bad.

Secondly what drives the cost, is how much the team with the biggest budget are willing to spend. That's what sets the norm of what it takes to get competitive. So when PSA spends huge amounts of money to build winning cars and technology, that is what makes the WRC expensive.

Just by regulating gearbox/transmission the cost of a WRC is almost down to s2000 level.

So soon PSA or some other manufactorer are willing to spend billions to make the best s2000 cars, the cost will rise on them too.

[Daniel]

I don't think WRC is too expensive, ok maybe it is, but the biggest problem is lack of payback for the manufactorers. The media coverage for WRC has been bad.

Secondly what drives the cost, is how much the team with the biggest budget are willing to spend. That's what sets the norm of what it takes to get competitive. So when PSA spends huge amounts of money to build winning cars and technology, that is what makes the WRC expensive.

Just by regulating gearbox/transmission the cost of a WRC is almost down to s2000 level.

So soon PSA or some other manufactorer are willing to spend billions to make the best s2000 cars, the cost will rise on them too.

This is the same as F1, WTCC, WRC, Moto GP, Superbikes and any other series. The people who spend big will usually win. The mark of a good series is how well the guys who don't spend as much money do. I mean in the WRC where were Skoda and Suzuki? They were nobody. With S2000 the competition seems very close for now.

[Lousada]

Rally driving is not about the torque out of the corner, it's about the speed in the corner. That is what seperates the drivers from the rich gentlemen. In WRC, only the top 4 drivers are real drivers and the rest are just gentlemen. I prefer to watch drivers, like in the IRC, rather than the gentlemen in the WRC.

[Gard]

Monte 2007: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/monte%2Bcarlo/video/x10oko_rallye-monte-carlo-2007-stage3_auto

I rest my case.

I agree, Monte and asphalt is useless for rallying ;)

[Daniel]

Monte 2007: http://www.dailymotion.com/relevance/search/monte%2Bcarlo/video/x10oko_rallye-monte-carlo-2007-stage3_auto

I rest my case.

i love the shot of the two women in the window :up: Really shows what the WRC is about and shows the speed of the car to great effect :up: Oh and later in the video there is another shot of 2 old women in a window. I don't give a **** what turns the cameraman on, I want to see rallying! Not old biddies.

[Daniel]

I agree, Monte and asphalt is useless for rallying ;)

Complete BS statement

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9oD_KAmmduM

[DonJippo]

Disagree again. Dry Monte would have seen Vouilloz, Basso, Kopecky, Rossetti in their element.

Even that can't change the fact that WRC is faster than S2000 when driven by equal drivers, it has more power and torgue compared to S2000 and that makes the difference.

[RS]

Even that can't change the fact that WRC is faster than S2000 when driven by equal drivers, it has more power and torgue compared to S2000 and that makes the difference.

The original poster was saying that Ogier would have had a huge lead had it not been icey, so my reply was to that, not WRCar vs. S2000.

WRC certainly is faster, I just don't think the gap is as big as some people think it is.

[Daniel]

Even that can't change the fact that WRC is faster than S2000 when driven by equal drivers, it has more power and torgue compared to S2000 and that makes the difference.

I agree with this but faster isn't always better is it? One thing that annoys me about the S2000+ class is the fact that although the cars will be torquier and more powerful than S2000 they still sound like they will be underpowered. My preference would have been to keep the power of the WRCars and give them a standard transmission and other parts like S2000 cars. Perhaps S2000 will take us closer to the show which WRCars used to give in the 90's and earlier in this decade but I'm not quite sure how only 280bhp will do this in a 4wd car but I hope I'm wrong :)

[Brother John]

Even that can't change the fact that WRC is faster than S2000 when driven by equal drivers, it has more power and torgue compared to S2000 and that makes the difference.

Why you need more power and torque?
Is it only for the drivers which dare to drive with insipid technical rapidly cars? Do you like to see on a wrc rally 4 fast cars and afterwards more than 100 insipid cars? ;)

[DonJippo]

My preference would have been to keep the power of the WRCars and give them a standard transmission and other parts like S2000 cars.

I was thinking about the same just hour ago and wondering why oh why the rule maker has not been keeping the technical rules such that would not allow too sophisticated and complex solutions.

[DonJippo]

Why you need more power and torque?
Is it only for the drivers which dare to drive with insipid technical rapidly cars? Do you like to see on a wrc rally 4 fast cars and afterwards more than 100 insipid cars? ;)

Read my post again to see to what I was responding.

[Daniel]

I was thinking about the same just hour ago and wondering why oh why the rule maker has not been keeping the technical rules such that would not allow too sophisticated and complex solutions.

This would have also meant that WRCars weren't instantly banned in the WRC as they are now which must annoy anyone who has bought a WRCar in the last few years. They could have had a control transmission for WRCars and perhaps put a smaller restrictor on the cars to keep them below the level of the new spec of car.

[RS]

I agree, Monte and asphalt is useless for rallying ;)

Whether you like asphalt rallying or not is a matter of personal taste. But I happen to think a good rally championship with global aspirations should have a good mix of both surfaces.

The point of my video link was to say that torque alone is not enough. Those WRCars have twice as much torque as an S2000 or more, but they are twice as boring to watch.

I am very hopeful that S2000+Turbo could be very good to watch (S2000 agility but with more torque for corner exits) That is, if they can settle the rules and make them work.

But I would also be happy for S2000 to be the top formulae as the original poster suggested.

[Brother John]

Read my post again to see to what I was responding.

I know what you mean, i just like to say that rally not only concern speed and torque. And yes wrc rallys were boooring the last years but the company was great! ;)

[Daniel]

the company was great! ;)


Yes you meet some great people at rallies but also some crazy ones too :mark:

I remember in 2007 in Finland I met this crazy guy on a boat who couldn't stop talking about the fact that there weren't enough bubbles in his beer :p

[Gard]

I was thinking about the same just hour ago and wondering why oh why the rule maker has not been keeping the technical rules such that would not allow too sophisticated and complex solutions.

oh.. come on guys. This is what us "s2000 bashers" has said all along. Then we all agree!? What the h... shall we argue about now? I know you'll come up with something Dani

[TKM]

Seriously I'm not bothered about who has the bigger rally-penis dude.....
But you're quite obviously the biggest tool

[Brother John]

Yes you meet some great people at rallies but also some crazy ones too :mark:

I remember in 2007 in Finland I met this crazy guy on a boat who couldn't stop talking about the fact that there weren't enough bubbles in his beer :p

There is pleasantly a difference between crazy and funny. :s mokin:

[sasamsa]

S2000 on tarmac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiRHLLLykRA

Looks beter than WRC in this video

[Daniel]

There is pleasantly a difference between crazy and funny. :s mokin:

Perhaps but this guy was definitely crazy ;)

[A.F.F.]

I know there a folks here in the forum whose actually have driving experience of rallying. Has anyone of you had the chance to drive S2000 yet?

It would be a refreshing change for the comments.

[Abarth]

Rally driving is not about the torque out of the corner, it's about the speed in the corner. That is what seperates the drivers from the rich gentlemen. In WRC, only the top 4 drivers are real drivers and the rest are just gentlemen. I prefer to watch drivers, like in the IRC, rather than the gentlemen in the WRC.


You are totally correct, and how much speed you are able to take with you out of the corner.

The S2000 cars are still pretty new, and will continue to evolve, and so will the driving technique of the drivers / So for me S2000 is more of a drivers car / and that is what we love is it not

[Mitch555]

Ok. Lets keep this simple. What do we think is going to be more viable and attract more manufacturers and more privateers.

1. Keeping the current formula of WRC
2. S2000+
3. S2000 & N4

I'm thinking S2000 & N4 as there is already a multitude of cars out there which have been built. Adding a kit onto these cars would make it more expensive obviously in the short term, no idea on long term so it would discourage some people into buying an S2000 car and upgrading it. Also take longer for these cars to be sold on as there wouldn't be a big supply. WRC cars are too expensive to run as we've seen.

Looking at the Monte from this week we got to see some current WRC drivers in these cars, and we've now seen Atkinson express interest in these. I don't think its about how fast you can go. Also in this weeks Monte we saaw that by the end of the event, FIAT, Skoda and Peugeot were all setting stage times similar (well there was a mix of different manu. up the top). There is still another 4 odd manufacturers out there who have built/currently building S2000 cars plus Suzuki, Citroen and Ford who could, as well as Mitsubishi and Subaru who already have N4 cars. And quite a few people now can rent S2000 or own them, plus tonnes in N4s. It certainly is popular.

Thoughts?

[Helstar]

Joe Public already has forgotten it existed.

There are currently more Manufacturers with S2000 cars than WRCars - I'd do as already said. Start with S2000, then develop the kit over a period of time, then introduce it.
People say S2000's are boring, but they do need driving to get quick times, unlike WRCars - which do all the work for you. Personally, I think the likes of Wilson, al Qassimi and Rautenbach would be even further off the pace in a S2000.
The current WRCars are fantastic pieces of kit, but too expensive and far too good. Basically, they've killed the sport. The S2000 era could be like 1987 Group A era - a start.

Totally agree man http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/icons/icon14.gif

[TKM Jnr]

All very true well other than saying Neal Bates was a great driver but sadly some people just have some irrational hatred for the IRC :crazy:

Sure the cars aren't as fast as WRCars but look at how close the guys are and how they're swapping stage victories and finding the cars difficult to drive and you'll see that raw pace doesn't matte all that much.

Just because people think S2000 cars aren't the fastest does not mean they hate the IRC, I would love to compete in it.....infact in an S2000 car but they are a different class to WRCars and can not be compared.

So pull your ****ing head in ****head

[TKM Jnr]

Seriously I'm not bothered about who has the bigger rally-penis dude.....

Mate his just trying to point out the fact that i think everyone else knows that your a ****head

[J.Lindstroem]

Just because people think S2000 cars aren't the fastest does not mean they hate the IRC, I would love to compete in it.....infact in an S2000 car but they are a different class to WRCars and can not be compared.

So pull your ****ing head in ****head

the most pathetic post ever. Please dissapear now before it gets ugly!

[TKM Jnr]

the most pathetic post ever. Please dissapear now before it gets ugly!

Well you can either have the sugar coated truth or you can have the truth.

So for being truthfull I think ill stay

I was stating the obvious in terms daniel can understand, he doesn't seem like the intelligent type

[raybak]

At the moment the WRC cars are the ultimate, S2000 is nowhere near them in the spectacle that they provide.

I love the sound of the S2000's, but they just aren't fast enough. When you have experienced what true pace is, without restrictors and some of the speeds you can achieve, you would never make S2000 the premier category.

It will be interesting to see what the S2000+ cars are like, whether they have the sound and the pace that will attract the spectators.

I know when we had the Subaru and Toyota WRC's in Australia there were plenty of spectators, now with the S2000's we can't seem to get the numbers.

Ray

[Daniel]

:mark:

[Sulland]

In reality, I think the S2000 cars are not a lot slower than the WRCs and I think you will see this if Kopecky and Hanninen run any WRC events this year.

I think Monte has proved there is not a great deal of difference in speed between WRC and IRC drivers. Sure Ogier and Gardemeister are currently 1-2, which kind of goes against my point, but SS10 was the first stage Ogier won and Gardemeister has not won a single stage.

It is interesting that the biggest opposition to IRC usually comes from people from countries who have no drivers in the series ;)

Sandell will run a Fabia S2000 in P-WRC so we can see there. But that is beside the point - What is best for international rallying long term - that is the question !

If S2000 is the new WRC then todays WRC is forgotten in 1 to 2 years, and everyone are happy !
If it is S2000+ then we will be happy with that, if they can keep the price down, and we will have many car brands that compete at the top !

[mjh]

I know when we had the Subaru and Toyota WRC's in Australia there were plenty of spectators, now with the S2000's we can't seem to get the numbers.

Ray

TBH I don't think there is a connection between (the tiny number of) S2000 in the ARC and poor spectator numbers. Crap promotion of the series, and only one works team (inevitably) dominating the series is a more likely reason!

[pino]

Thread almost cleaned now, so keep it that way and quit the insults or someone will be temporarly banned !

[urabus-denoS2000]

asphalt is useless for rallying ;)

I actually prefer asphalt more than gravel,and I know I am not the only one

[Alvaro_Rally]

Do you think S2000 are not spectacular in the hairpins? Maybe you should change the corners you go to watch rallies... if you watch fast corners or hard brakings probably you wouldn´t think so...

I think new "Super 2000 +" will be called "WRC" again... actually they are WRCs but without electronic diffs.

[Torsen]

S2000 on tarmac:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiRHLLLykRA

Looks beter than WRC in this video

3/4th into that video theres a scene of cars coming down a hill and sliding around a corner.... wrc cars can do that going up hill not just downhill...

just an observation...

[OldF]

IMO S2000 is not enough for the WRC level although I like to watch them and specially listen to them. What makes the WRC cars sounds so boring (low revs), is the restrictor. In the 90’s the sound of the A-group cars was much better because they had to use higher revs because they didn’t have that high boost like the WRC cars nowadays have. When the turbo technology developed they could use much higher boost and because of that they have now almost maximum power on lower revs. Now they’re using higher revs only to go at higher speed.

[RS]

3/4th into that video theres a scene of cars coming down a hill and sliding around a corner.... wrc cars can do that going up hill not just downhill...

just an observation...

You are right, they can. But the reality is that on a rally they don't because it is not the quickest way to drive them, with an S2000 you HAVE to drive them with a more attacking style.

OldF makes a good point about the restrictors too. The current WRCars sound like they are changing gear at about 2500RPM which only adds to the illusion that they are slow.

[Sulland]

Look at he Monte Carlo now and doesn't this go fast enough?
S2000 is a real rallycar and i hope there comes none S2000+ what they then call wrccar.
WRC championship would have to be open for all S2000 cars, I, however, want to see private teams win rallies in the wrc? :s mokin:

For once I actually fully agree with a Swede ! :D

FIA should keep it simple and use the momentum S2000 has now with all the manufacturers that have cars, cut the BS and say that S2000 is the way ahead !

In two years we will have forgotten all about this and todays WRC will be a memory like Gr B !

[cosmicpanda]

Part of me wouldn't mind seeing S2000 replace WRC, never mind the bolt-on kit. But obviously I don't have anything to do with these decisions.

[Brother John]

For once I actually fully agree with a Swede ! :D

FIA should keep it simple and use the momentum S2000 has now with all the manufacturers that have cars, cut the BS and say that S2000 is the way ahead !

In two years we will have forgotten all about this and todays WRC will be a memory like Gr B !

Me a Swede? A Belgian in Sweden is closer at the truth. :s mokin:

[Sulland]

Me a Swede? A Belgian in Sweden is closer at the truth. :s mokin:

Ohh, I am so sorry. So I am in your country and You are close to mine, interesting !
So why not keep the Bel flag ?

[Brother John]

Ohh, I am so sorry. So I am in your country and You are close to mine, interesting !
So why not keep the Bel flag ?

I´m also not a Belgian but born and grown up there. ;)
I like to live in Sweden and the nature here. I feel myself more home in Scandinavian.

[A.F.F.]

I´m also not a Belgian but born and grown up there. ;)
I like to live in Sweden and the nature here. I feel myself more home in Scandinavian.

What about the eggs? How do you them in Scandinavia?

[Brother John]

What about the eggs? How do you them in Scandinavia?


I´l send em to you when the CDs or ready. ;)

[Sulland]

What about the eggs? How do you them in Scandinavia?

Same as in the rest of the Nordic Countries, Finland Included !! :p

[BDunnell]

FIA should keep it simple and use the momentum S2000 has now with all the manufacturers that have cars, cut the BS and say that S2000 is the way ahead !

I couldn't agree more. That 'momentum' is key.

[Sulland]

When will FIA meet next time, to make decisions on Rally tech regulations ?

[Sulland]

I think it is a good sign when a Mellors Motorsport can build a rallycar that is this fast, almost out of the box.

If they can other manufacturers can follow the same pattern, and outsource the development without having a big expensive motorsport department.

For me this is a sign of a healthy formula for the car, and will attract more manufacturers into the sport !

And the Proton was pretty fast....

[Helstar]

Whoa Proton is surely a huge surprise O_o

Ok the conditions are terrible, but to beat many WRC cars isn't easy at all...

A good reply to those still in doubt about S2000 potential, and think about development in years (engine etc.)

[StevieWonder]

http://www.motorline.cc/rallye/index.php/article=149581/=Rallye_-_Rallye-WM__Exklusiv_-_Stohl__„Eine_Königsklasse_braucht_starke_Autos!“. htm

interesting article about S2000 by manfred stohl (german only):

main points:

1. it´s impossible to give today´s s2000 a turbo - but you have to set up nearly a new car (new electronics, new air ventilation, ...)
all in all chassis and suspension can be the same

2. developing a new s2000+ needs up to 1 1/2 years !!!

3. stohl was a little bit shocked driving a s2000 in portugal last year for his first time - the difference between WRC and s2000 is like group N and a suzuki swift sport (regular car)
the current s2000 category has too less power

3. FIA has to give s2000 a turbo, if WRC should be the TOP rally class and a good show
s2000 are less spectacular - especially in hairpins and uphill

4. even in a group N mitsu the driver "feels" more power than in a s2000, but s2000 has less weight and that´s the main reason, why they are so fast





also have in mind, that stohl has some knowledge on such a topic, as he already developing rally cars in Austria: http://www.stohl-racing.com/news.php?lang=E

[urabus-denoS2000]

When you think about it,we can go with something faster and a lot cheaper than a WRC.... :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NEAiDfhjbc

[cut the b.s.]

In answer to BJs question, was WRC fast enough for WRC in 87/98/99? This is the speed that these cars are up to and beyond now.

Only noticed this thread, and sorry to all that have posted thus far that I dont have time to read all posted.

[Finni]

Of course even IRC is spectacular if driven on snow. But on gravel not to mention dry asphalt they are far from spectacular.

I have witnessed well driven IRC car in live and it was nothing compared wrc's. At least in NORF wrc's has been very spectacular.

[RS]

Of course even IRC is spectacular if driven on snow. But on gravel not to mention dry asphalt they are far from spectacular.

I have witnessed well driven IRC car in live and it was nothing compared wrc's. At least in NORF wrc's has been very spectacular.

Hmmm, who/where did you see the "IRC car" live?

Disagree on the gravel handling. Dry asphalt, I am closer to agreeing but then current WRCars are not spectacular on dry asphalt either.

[AndyRAC]

For spectacular action you need more power than grip - neither WRC's or S2000's have that.
WRCars are fantastic pieces of kit - but, basically, have killed the sport. The prices for them are just crazy - that is one of the main reasons Manufacturers left/wouldn't join. If the price can be capped for the S2000's then I'd go for them - whilst they aren't perfect - the amount of Manufacturers with them is a good sign. At the moment, I almost don't care if they are milk floats, so long a we get lots of different cars/drivers entering - that can only be good for the sport.
Rally Ireland - 36 starters, 2 Works teams - hardly the sign of a healthy sport, is it?

[RS]

Rally Ireland - 36 starters, 2 Works teams - hardly the sign of a healthy sport, is it?

It is guaranteed any "team" will score points now with only 2 points scorers from each team and only 4 teams. Even Aava and Rautenbach scored points this weekend despite not actually completing the whole rally!

[Finni]

For spectacular action you need more power than grip - neither WRC's or S2000's have that.

By your definition finnish group F must be the most spectacular form of the sport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBW_xWja9I

Nothing wrong with group F but if you are spectating in actual rally and watching those machines after wrc-cars you feel bored. Part of the excitement is to see the car cornering, braking and accelerating with massive forces and massive speed. I have been in finnish national rallies and Norf and always, always wrc-cars gets the folk most excited. The on-road charasteristics of wrc-cars are wrong thing to blaim for lack of action in our beloved sport.

[Daniel]

By your definition finnish group F must be the most spectacular form of the sport.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIBW_xWja9I

Nothing wrong with group F but if you are spectating in actual rally and watching those machines after wrc-cars you feel bored. Part of the excitement is to see the car cornering, braking and accelerating with massive forces and massive speed. I have been in finnish national rallies and Norf and always, always wrc-cars gets the folk most excited. The on-road charasteristics of wrc-cars are wrong thing to blaim for lack of action in our beloved sport.
What we need is a cross between WRCars/S2000 and Group F.

[Finni]

Hmmm, who/where did you see the "IRC car" live?


Anton Alen in NORF. And don't say he was too slow. Alen may not be the fastest guy in IRC but in fast gravel he has been second only to Hänninen.

[Finni]

What we need is a cross between WRCars/S2000 and Group F.

Not bad idea.

Hopefully there is competent people excecuting.

[sasamsa]

What we need is a cross between WRCars/S2000 and Group F.
Subaru might reenter WRC in a few years..
Word is that prodrive have already started development but on a very tight budget.
Somebody managed to take a pic: http://img509.imageshack.us/img509/5519/20080612030ed2ef4d18c72kl8.jpg

[urabus-denoS2000]

Ah so Subaru definately goes 2WD (or 1WD?) :D

[sasamsa]

Ah so Subaru definately goes 2WD (or 1WD?) :D
Also Loeb was seen testing the new WRC format Citroen vehicle..
He doesnt look happy with it and will look to retire from wrc and try something else.
He said that it was too slow and easy to drive.
http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/9670/49189loebs07j99resizeqf2.jpg

[urabus-denoS2000]

Yeah,you can see on his face that he is dissapointed....... :(


So that is the new S50 class then??? :D

[AndyRAC]

Yeah,you can see on his face that he is dissapointed....... :(


So that is the new S50 class then??? :D

Bring it on, I think we could all afford to take part!!

[Mirek]

Yeah, I have a lot of experience with such things, I even tested crashing with that! :D

[urabus-denoS2000]

So Mirek is a crash dummy! :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao: :rotflmao:

Are you at least testing for a works team?

[Mirek]

Still not decided whether Gillera takes part in WRC or not :D

[urabus-denoS2000]

Mirek while signing a contract with Gillera (left one if you didnt know,or yellow one actually!!!)

http://auto.pege.org/2007-iaa-2/esp.jpg


I guess only Peugeot can compete on this format with experience



P.S. Sorry for a massive off-topic,no harm in a joke ;)

[A.F.F.]

http://auto.pege.org/2007-iaa-2/esp.jpg



How cool it would have been if that crashtest dummy wore "choose life" tag in his chest ???

Y'know... in the name of Wham... :)

[RS]

Anton Alen in NORF. And don't say he was too slow. Alen may not be the fastest guy in IRC but in fast gravel he has been second only to Hänninen.

I suppose if you watch a WRCar right before an S2000 then on a fast gravel rally, you will really notice the difference, but I certainly I enjoyed watching Rally Russia for the last two years with the S2000s.

On slower gravel the S2000s look far more agile to me than the WRCs.

Agree about Alen, on fast gravel he is very good (Russia last year he had bad luck with a puncture). It is just everywhere else he needs to work on. He really "must try harder" in Brazil next month.

[g-whizz]

Proton S2000 3rd fastest on first stage of Rally Ireland 09

[J.Lindstroem]

Proton S2000 3rd fastest on first stage of Rally Ireland 09

Is that true? Man, that's marvelous!