A big " hello" to all those members who....

[gadjo_dilo]

....were so enthusiast to thnk "It's time to screw Russia over " ( see related topic ).

Anyway that's what can happens when you dare to upset the "tzar":
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7814743.stm

Latest news are that the gas was already cut so I have another greeting for those who live in central Europe and Balkans: Happy freezing!!!!!

[Daniel]

If you recall the first post in that thread was talking about achieving long term energy independence from Russia. I wasn't advocating giving Russia the finger and then wondering why it was suddenly getting cold or stealing their gas :)

[gadjo_dilo]

Yeah... I think I recall your utopic solutions like cutting the gas and oil consumptions. At the moment I'm in the postion to follow your advice and I'm wearing an extra coat ( that's how Ceausescu learnt us to redice gas imports ). :laugh:

[Daniel]

Yeah... I think I recall your utopic solutions like cutting the gas and oil consumptions. At the moment I'm in the postion to follow your advice and I'm wearing an extra coat ( that's how Ceausescu learnt us to redice gas imports ). :laugh:

Don't go quoting me out of context thankyouverymuch :rolleyes:

My suggestion was in no way "Cut consumption and deal with the cold"

[gadjo_dilo]

I'm ready to apologize if due to my bad knowledge of english I misunderstood quotes like:

On page 1:
"If people in power around the world realise that without oil and gas money Russia is nothing then we can start to invest in renewable energy and also cut comsumption enough to give Russia the finger".

On page 2:
"Russia can turn off the gas and freeze you to death if they want. If Europe wants things to stay the way they are now we need to stop using oil and gas like we have an unlimited and consequence free supply of the stuff."

OK, here in Romania we have our own gas resources, we still have an acceptable russian gas stock, we still can use coal and fuel oil, however it was declared emergency state , the girl next to me is already wearing 3 sweaters and a shawl and our president is desperately trying to get in touch with mr.Putin.
A classic alive said " winter is not like summer " so no matter how much we try to reduce consumption we can't live without heat and food.

[Daniel]

I'm ready to apologize if due to my bad knowledge of english I misunderstood quotes like:

On page 1:
"If people in power around the world realise that without oil and gas money Russia is nothing then we can start to invest in renewable energy and also cut comsumption enough to give Russia the finger".

On page 2:
"Russia can turn off the gas and freeze you to death if they want. If Europe wants things to stay the way they are now we need to stop using oil and gas like we have an unlimited and consequence free supply of the stuff."

OK, here in Romania we have our own gas resources, we still have an acceptable russian gas stock, we still can use coal and fuel oil, however it was declared emergency state , the girl next to me is already wearing 3 sweaters and a shawl and our president is desperately trying to get in touch with mr.Putin.
A classic alive said " winter is not like summer " so no matter how much we try to reduce consumption we can't live without heat and food.

Page 1 - I said cut consumption, not stop using gas full stop.
Page 2 - I said we need to stop usng it like we have an unlimited and consequance free supply of the stuff.

Thanks for proving my point for me as I'm far too lazy to have gone back to that thread and posted my words again :wave:

[gadjo_dilo]

Page 1 - I said cut consumption, not stop using gas full stop.
Page 2 - I said we need to stop usng it like we have an unlimited and consequance free supply of the stuff.

Thanks for proving my point for me as I'm far too lazy to have gone back to that thread and posted my words again :wave:

I could have bet you'll say this. :laugh:
I'm glad I've proved your point was wrong.

[Daniel]

I could have bet you'll say this. :laugh:
I'm glad I've proved your point was wrong.

I'm sorry but I'm not going to have an argument with someone who clearly doesn't understand what was being said.

[ShiftingGears]

I'm glad I've proved your point was wrong.

And how did you do that, exactly?

[gadjo_dilo]

Ok, let's stop the debate, I also can't get on with someone who's not able to understand it's imposible to cut gas CONSUMPTION without economic danages and a degradation of living conditions. I had the bad luck to live the experience of a "saving unregenerable resources period ", you hadn't, so I'll let you dream on.

[Daniel]

And how did you do that, exactly?

Well apparently when I posted my thread in August I was actually saying "Just stop using gas and oil" rather than lets invest in renewable and alternative sources of energy and slowly achieve energy self independence from Russia. Of course I didn't just say "stop using gas and oil" because yeah that's going to work! Want to go to work? Sorry no oil for petrol or diesel to run your car or the bus you go to work on. Want to live? Oh sorry you just froze to death because you didn't heat your house up with gas.

[Daniel]

Ok, let's stop the debate, I also can't get on with someone who's not able to understand it's imposible to cut gas CONSUMPTION without economic danages and a degradation of living conditions. I had the bad luck to live the experience of a "saving unregenerable resources period ", you hadn't, so I'll let you dream on.

You continue to ignore what I actually posted in the other thread. If power generation starts relying more on renewable resources and less on gas from Russia then you will be less susceptible to these sorts of actions by Russia.

You don't simply cut consumption, you build capacity in for another resource which does the same job as the other resource. We will never completely be able to rely upon renewable resources but we can cut comsumption if we build additional capacity in other forms of capacity. Whether the heat for your home is produced by burning duck droppings, praising Allah/Budha/God, burning coal, burning gas or is done some of the time by renewable energy your house will be heated so what's the big deal? Are you being nostalgic about gas or something because I don't understand why you are so obsessed with gas rather than some other form of heating.....

Perhaps you're spooked by me using the same words as your old "friend" Ceausescu but what I'm talking about is vastly different. One wonders what people like yourself suggest doing when the gas runs out and there is no more gas in the world to run your boiler? :confused:

What then? :laugh: :confused:

Edit: I should also point out that our home is heated by electric storage heaters. So from midnight-7am when the electricity is cheaper the heater heats up which slowly releases heat throughout the day. Unless I'm very much mistaken and the electrons generated by renewable energy are incompatible with it then we can heat our house with electrons generated from renewable sources with no issue whatsoever or am I missing something?

[gadjo_dilo]

And how did you do that, exactly?

Do you think that the 2 ways suggested by our mutual friend can be applied to Slovakia, for example? :laugh:

[turves]

The solution is simple - use energy resources that create lots of polution!

For example:

Switch to Electricity

The Power Station Creates Pollution

The Pollution increases the hole in the Ozone Layer, accelerating Global Warming

The World heats up

PROBLEM SOLVED...

[Daniel]

Do you think that the 2 ways suggested by our mutual friend can be applied to Slovakia, for example? :laugh:

I'm afraid I'm not that familiar with the intricate details of the power industry in Slovakia.

[ShiftingGears]

Do you think that the 2 ways suggested by our mutual friend can be applied to Slovakia, for example? :laugh:

Well, that depends on whether or not Slovakia has the money to invest in alternate sources of energy in order to decrease its dependance on Russian resources. Obviously.

[gadjo_dilo]

You continue to ignore what I actually posted in the other thread. If power generation starts relying more on renewable resources and less on gas from Russia then you will be less susceptible to these sorts of actions by Russia.

You don't simply cut consumption, you build capacity in for another resource which does the same job as the other resource. We will never completely be able to rely upon renewable resources but we can cut comsumption if we build additional capacity in other forms of capacity. Whether the heat for your home is produced by burning duck droppings, praising Allah/Budha/God, burning coal, burning gas or is done some of the time by renewable energy your house will be heated so what's the big deal? Are you being nostalgic about gas or something because I don't understand why you are so obsessed with gas rather than some other form of heating.....

Perhaps you're spooked by me using the same words as your old "friend" Ceausescu but what I'm talking about is vastly different. One wonders what people like yourself suggest doing when the gas runs out and there is no more gas in the world to run your boiler?

What then?

Edit: I should also point out that our home is heated by electric storage heaters. So from midnight-7am when the electricity is cheaper the heater heats up which slowly releases heat throughout the day. Unless I'm very much mistaken and the electrons generated by renewable energy are incompatible with it then we can heat our house with electrons generated from renewable sources with no issue whatsoever or am I missing something?

What you say is theoretically sublime and reminds me the Boc governamental programme. :laugh: But once again practice is killing us......

Don't have the energy ( :laugh: ) to give you a proper answer as it's time for me to go home. But I think your theory misses a few important things like natural conditions, the level of natural resources, costs of exploatation, costs of diffrent kinds of energy. Put these things into equation and you'll see what I meant. And remember that I don't speak about heating a home but of a country economy and standard of life.

P.S. Who knows, maybe I'm really obsessed with gas as I aim to have a gas heated home. :laugh: :laugh:
For this part of the world it's the most comfortable, the cheapest, the most convenient, the most efficient. Well, just explaining its popularity....
:laugh:
As for other forms of heating....Difficult when you live in a big city with many blocks, with cold grey winter days.....

[ShiftingGears]

Well apparently when I posted my thread in August I was actually saying "Just stop using gas and oil" rather than lets invest in renewable and alternative sources of energy and slowly achieve energy self independence from Russia. Of course I didn't just say "stop using gas and oil" because yeah that's going to work! Want to go to work? Sorry no oil for petrol or diesel to run your car or the bus you go to work on. Want to live? Oh sorry you just froze to death because you didn't heat your house up with gas.

I was just waiting for some justification beyond "HA! I knew you'd say that! I am right!" :p :

[ShiftingGears]

What you say is theoretically sublime and reminds me the Boc governamental programme. :laugh: But once again practice is killing us......

Don't have the energy ( :laugh: ) to give you a proper answer as it's time for me to go home. But I think your theory misses a few important things like natural conditions, the level of natural resources, costs of exploatation, costs of diffrent kinds of energy. Put these things into equation and you'll see what I meant. And remember that I don't speak about heating a home but of a country economy and standard of life.

P.S. Who knows, maybe I'm really obsessed with gas as I aim to have a gas heated home. :laugh: :laugh:
For this part of the world it's the most comfortable, the cheapest, the most convenient, the most efficient. Well, just explaining its popularity....
:laugh:
As for other forms of heating....Difficult when you live in a big city with many blocks, with cold grey winter days.....

Convenient, but worth Russia having a stranglehold over your country?

[Daniel]

Convenient, but worth Russia having a stranglehold over your country?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=spyyKkOK20I

Apparently :)

[gadjo_dilo]

Convenient, but worth Russia having a stranglehold over your country?

1.Why don't you let me go home??????????
2.We're not a very rich country and don't have enough resources.
3.The import of gas is probably the most convenient. What's the use of energy independence if we wouldn't be able to pay the bills?
4. Stranglehold? It's a business partner neither better nor worse than others.

[Azumanga Davo]

Convenient, but lazy. It's now a good time to set aside some funding to get the ball rolling.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Daniel, you are not wrong in saying people need to conserve more but lets face a fact here. No one can live without Gas and Oil and those industries and home owners that need it are not going to be able to put up a windmill or a solar panel in the next 10 years and take themselves off the grid. In the mean time ole Putin is putting the screws on the supply to prove a political point. Nice eh? Play nice with the Russian bear or you get screwed?

You can say what you like about world politics but the last time I looked, the only regimes that played games like this in the past were not people you wanted to have as business partners. To put the screws to Russia would be a wonderful thing but most of Eastern Europe seems to be on the hook for this gas and oil supply and it is very much a cruel game that Putin and his puppet are playing. To those who think the USSR is dead, it is sort of alive in other ways I guess.....

[Daniel]

Daniel, you are not wrong in saying people need to conserve more but lets face a fact here. No one can live without Gas and Oil and those industries and home owners that need it are not going to be able to put up a windmill or a solar panel in the next 10 years and take themselves off the grid. In the mean time ole Putin is putting the screws on the supply to prove a political point. Nice eh? Play nice with the Russian bear or you get screwed?

Of course regular people can't afford panels or turbines themselves. But the governments need to start thinking about this or at the very least establishing links to middle east pipelines.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Daniel....this is fine to say that but it doesn't help Gadjo in his flat in Romania today if the Russians cut off the gas.

Your solutions are down the road and sound good but they are down the road. What the Russians are doing is economic terrorism and it should be talked about in a lot more negative light than it is. What they are doing in many ways is every bit as heinous as their invasion of Georgia was.....

[Daniel]

Daniel....this is fine to say that but it doesn't help Gadjo in his flat in Romania today if the Russians cut off the gas.

Your solutions are down the road and sound good but they are down the road. What the Russians are doing is economic terrorism and it should be talked about in a lot more negative light than it is. What they are doing in many ways is every bit as heinous as their invasion of Georgia was.....
Her flat ;)

Of course my solution does nothing to help today but what can? What is happening today is the very reasoning for what I said in my other thread. These countries need to work towards weening themselves off the USSR's oily teat. Sooner rather than later or this is going to get serious if it isn't already serious.

I agree this is bad and in some ways probably worse than what happened in Georgia hence my other thread :)

[Easy Drifter]

Everbody in Canada pays lip service to 'Green Energy" but not in my back yard (nimby) prevails.
Everywhere wind farms are proposed up springs the opposition. Two that I can think of quickly are out in the Thousand Islands of Georgian Bay on some of the smaller islands. Opposition quickly spang up, mostly from people in The GTA who have cottages the area. Second area suggested was 2 miles off the Scarborough Bluffs in Lake Ontario. This is offshore by 2 miles in the eastern end of Toronto. Immediate opposition. Every other wind farm recently proposed has opposition.
We now turn to Hydro Electric. Neither of the two I am going to mention are large plants. The first is at the vacation town of Bala where there is a rapid flow of water from Lake Muskoka into the Moon River over the Bala Falls. The proposal, now modified, will have very little impact on the Falls and the plant as designed will blend into the area. Nimbys galore.
The second proposal is on the Severn River, part of the Trent Severn Waterway. There are already 2 power plants on the River, one at Big Chute, also the site of the largest Marine railway in the world. The second one is at Swift Rapids and was one of the first Hydro Electric Power plants in Canada. It is owned by the City of Orillia. The planned location is on a wilderness stretch of the river with no road access and no cottages as it is Crown land (Govt. owned). Again all sorts of opposition mainly centred from cottagers on other parts of the river.
It may be different in Europe but here the public want 'Green Power' only if it is not near them.

[Daniel]

It may be different in Europe but here the public want 'Green Power' only if it is not near them.

No different

http://www.eveningleader.co.uk/letters/Not-enough-wind-to-boil.4801083.jp

And yes that is my comment on that story ;)

[Eki]

What the Russians are doing is economic terrorism and it should be talked about in a lot more negative light than it is.
Yes, just like the sanctions against Cuba, Iran and North Korea are economic terrorism.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Yes, just like the sanctions against Cuba, Iran and North Korea are economic terrorism.


Those sanctions are really easy to get around in Cuba's case. The US is the only nation that doesn't trade with Cuba. If Cuba is a hole, at some point Castro should look in the mirror for why. I don't agree with the US embargo there but hey...that is something that I have seen as US politicians trying to curry favour with the large Cuban emigre community in South Florida.

As for Iran or North Korea, look hard at their human rights record. Take a good long look at the Amnesty International reports on those two nations. You really think seriously that trading with either one of them would do much to help those people? REALLY? You would have to be delusional. North Korea wouldn't have anything to trade with the US if truth be told. What would they trade back? Grass? no...that was fed to the people there because they have ruined their agriculutural base with communist management. The US has given grain to North Korea a lot over the years to try to fend off the starvation that our little midget buddy Kim was pretty much ok with.

Eki....we wont even start with Iran. GE has been trading their through their German division for years. That embargo has been more artificial than real and again, what has Iran done but antagonize the US? That said, most people in Europe have nothing but distrust for Iran as well. The Iranians have been threatening to create a bomb for the last few years and the last time I looked the European nations have had little sucess getting anything done there. Iran, North Korea and Cuba will all do what they do to their own people regardless of sanctions.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Everbody in Canada pays lip service to 'Green Energy" but not in my back yard (nimby) prevails.
Everywhere wind farms are proposed up springs the opposition. Two that I can think of quickly are out in the Thousand Islands of Georgian Bay on some of the smaller islands. Opposition quickly spang up, mostly from people in The GTA who have cottages the area. Second area suggested was 2 miles off the Scarborough Bluffs in Lake Ontario. This is offshore by 2 miles in the eastern end of Toronto. Immediate opposition. Every other wind farm recently proposed has opposition.
We now turn to Hydro Electric. Neither of the two I am going to mention are large plants. The first is at the vacation town of Bala where there is a rapid flow of water from Lake Muskoka into the Moon River over the Bala Falls. The proposal, now modified, will have very little impact on the Falls and the plant as designed will blend into the area. Nimbys galore.
The second proposal is on the Severn River, part of the Trent Severn Waterway. There are already 2 power plants on the River, one at Big Chute, also the site of the largest Marine railway in the world. The second one is at Swift Rapids and was one of the first Hydro Electric Power plants in Canada. It is owned by the City of Orillia. The planned location is on a wilderness stretch of the river with no road access and no cottages as it is Crown land (Govt. owned). Again all sorts of opposition mainly centred from cottagers on other parts of the river.
It may be different in Europe but here the public want 'Green Power' only if it is not near them.

Look at Howe Island near Kingston Drifter. A company was set up to build 100 windmills there and pay the farmers there for the land. Every damned islander is now whining except those farmers getting money for the windmills. ON the W5 this story was covered and the little yuppie organic tree huggers that lived there are now whining about the windmills because it ruins "their island way of life". I mean no one can win. I vote we build more nukes with the CANDU system and do everything we can to make sure they are safe and find ways to deal with the waste. No greenhouse gases and it is a made in Canada solution. At some point the enviromental movement has to realize they cant have it both ways.

You cannot conserve energy when your population is growing at a rate that makes any conservation just a slower growth curve on demand. You cant have a greenhouse gas friendly source of power of any magnitude by building windmills and solar farms. The wind doesn't always blow and the sun only shines 16 to 10 hours a day in this part of the world. When demand is up and the only solution is to have more "unfriendly"power....then you take the path that does the least amount of damage.

At least I can thank my lucky stars I am not caught in a nation that is dependent on the whims of Russia for my energy supply. Gadjo must live in a nation with a lot of apprehension based on this manipulation. She however has put some intelligent thoughts together (and I didn't know she was a she until this was pointed out...my humble apologies).

[Hondo]

I may not understand this but here goes. I thought Russia's complaint was with the Ukraine. The pipelines that feed Europe run through the Ukraine and Russia claims the Ukraine is stealing some of the gas during the flow process. Russia wants to be paid for the gas that was stolen. The Ukraine refuses to pay so Russia shut down or cut back on gas delivery. If this is correct, shouldn't you direct your anger to the Ukraine. I read an EU commission was going to look into this and make recommendations. It will be summer before that happens. I kind of like ol' Putin. When he says he's going to take action on something, he does.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Fiero...lol...you may have a point except that civilized nations let the courts or dispute mechanisms recognized by international law do their thing. They just don't arbitrarily turn off the tap in the middle of winter. Furthermore, if Gadjo says it is effecting her in Romania, she doesn't have a dog in the dispute between the Ukraine and Russia. I am always going to back the Ukraine on a lot of things anyhow because if there is one part of the old USSR that Putin would love to have back, it is the Ukraine and he has more or less been agitating things to go his way there for years....

[gadjo_dilo]

Of course regular people can't afford panels or turbines themselves. But the governments need to start thinking about this or at the very least establishing links to middle east pipelines.

In fact, this year our governement is running a programme to encourage the use of unconventional energy sources. The investment is supported 90% by state budget ( however I don't know if it will be a success because due to financial crise our budget is strictly limited and a lot of expenditures were cut ). Problem is that solar energy is not enough to heat a house during winter. It's seen more like a possibility to reduce the gas bill. As you see now, even with such improvements we still neeed gas.


....this is fine to say that but it doesn't help Gadjo in his flat in Romania today if the Russians cut off the gas. .
Nice to see you're concerned but I have to set the record straight: I live in an old central building with terracotta stoves. I use firewood as fuel (that's what I call a nightmare ). I heat the water with an electic boiler and I cook using gas from an exchangeble recipient.
But I'm just an exception, the city is heated by gas

[Hondo]

I have nothing against the Ukraine either but if they are tapping the gas flow for their own use then they need to pay for it. Although it won't help this winter, maybe the EU should get with Russia about alternative delivery methods or perhaps consider building a pipeline running through a more trustworthy country. Could be the Ukraine figures the EU will pony up and pay their gas bill for them if things really get desperate.

[DonJippo]

Although it won't help this winter, maybe the EU should get with Russia about alternative delivery methods or perhaps consider building a pipeline running through a more trustworthy country.

Here you go ... http://www.nord-stream.com/en/

[Mark]

In the UK the governement has been warned for the past 10 years that our current installation of power stations is going to come to the end of its life very soon and replacements need to be built now. Considering it takes about 10 years to build a power station.

But they've been sitting on their hands and talking about what sort of energy we should be using rather than getting on and doing it.

I can see their problem, mind. We need a massive new infestment in new power infrastructure, but it doesn't matter what solution they choose, there will be massive protests against it.

[Eki]

What would they trade back? Grass? no...that was fed to the people there because they have ruined their agriculutural base with communist management.
There is low cost labour, even lower cost than in China, India, Vietnam, etc.

[Hondo]

Here you go ... http://www.nord-stream.com/en/


Thanks for the link!

[gadjo_dilo]

Of course my solution does nothing to help today but what can? What is happening today is the very reasoning for what I said in my other thread. These countries need to work towards weening themselves off the USSR's oily teat. Sooner rather than later or this is going to get serious if it isn't already serious.



What do you think about the Nabucco pipeline project?

[Daniel]

In fact, this year our governement is running a programme to encourage the use of unconventional energy sources. The investment is supported 90% by state budget ( however I don't know if it will be a success because due to financial crise our budget is strictly limited and a lot of expenditures were cut ). Problem is that solar energy is not enough to heat a house during winter. It's seen more like a possibility to reduce the gas bill. As you see now, even with such improvements we still neeed gas.

I never said you'd be off gas totally straight away. Please read my posts before you reply :crazy:

[Daniel]

What do you think about the Nabucco pipeline project?

Sounds like fun?

[gadjo_dilo]

I never said you'd be off gas totally straight away. Please read my posts before you reply :crazy:

I never said you did. What I'm trying to point out is that even in a very long period of time we can't get an energetic independence from Russia. This country has a lot of natural resources, we lack them and we need them more and more.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Mark, what you are witnessing in the UK is the typical dance of the middle left political movement. They sit around and debate issues until the situation forces them to make a decision and usually it is a worse decision if they just got on with things. Governments the world over who follow this path usually have solutions that are often more expensive and painful because no one has the balls to confront the opposition any project has and just get it done.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I never said you did. What I'm trying to point out is that even in a very long period of time we can't get an energetic independence from Russia. This country has a lot of natural resources, we lack them and we need them more and more.

Gadjo...Romania isn't alone in this. In today's paper I read about how half of Europe depends on Russian gas and no quick fix solutions are available. This dispute with the Ukraine's alledgelly siphoning off the gas is a spurious reason for Russia to remind everyone in Europe that they are the boss of the economic future of half of the EC. This is a big show of power to make all the nations downstream of the Russians gas supply that they don't make the rules..Vlad Putin does.

Alternative sources of power needed to be found long before they signed a deal with this devil. It is no wonder to anyone with half a brain that no one likes or trusts the Russians to do business with. They not only not play fair, they don't have any concern for anyone but themselves on ANY level.

This dispute should be handled in the courts and is between the Russians and the Ukraninians and should be separate from actually supplying EC nations with natural gas.

[Drew]

Essentially, we were right, then?

[anthonyvop]

Yes, just like the sanctions against Cuba, Iran and North Korea are economic terrorism.
No more than me not eating at McDonalds.

[Eki]

No more than me not eating at McDonalds.

Then Russia cutting off gas to Ukraine is no more economic terrorism than you not eating at McDonalds.

[Daniel]

I never said you did. What I'm trying to point out is that even in a very long period of time we can't get an energetic independence from Russia. This country has a lot of natural resources, we lack them and we need them more and more.

If the rest of the world has brains they will invest money in power generation in your country and make money out of it.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Anthony...that is also true in not buying gas at CITGO to avoid giving Hugo Chavez any spare coin....

[Mark in Oshawa]

Leave it to Eki to defend shutting off the gas to most of Eastern Europe as ethical....

[Daniel]

Leave it to Eki to defend shutting off the gas to most of Eastern Europe as ethical....
To play the devils advocate though, what are they to do as the gas pipeline passes through the Ukraine if the Ukraine is indeed stealing gas and not paying the bills?

[Mark in Oshawa]

To play the devils advocate though, what are they to do as the gas pipeline passes through the Ukraine if the Ukraine is indeed stealing gas and not paying the bills?

they hold the Ukrainian example up in a court of International law and tell all the other nations downstream of the gas theives in the Ukraine (alleged) that they better cough up some dough to build a pipeline from Russia through Poland or some other EU nation in the system. To arbitrarly declare that the whole of Eastern Europe must suffer because of the alleged theivery of the Ukraine is barbaric and heavy handed. Of course...we have come to expect no less of Vlad Putin and his puppet president.

Civilized nations (which is what the nations of Europe and the west like to think we are) do NOT act in this manner. Heck....why don't the Russians just invade and use this as justification? Wipe all those lousy Ukranians out? Would THAT be any more legal? No....of course not.

There are international conventions and legalities that the Russians didn't even bother pursuing...

[Daniel]

they hold the Ukrainian example up in a court of International law and tell all the other nations downstream of the gas theives in the Ukraine (alleged) that they better cough up some dough to build a pipeline from Russia through Poland or some other EU nation in the system. To arbitrarly declare that the whole of Eastern Europe must suffer because of the alleged theivery of the Ukraine is barbaric and heavy handed. Of course...we have come to expect no less of Vlad Putin and his puppet president.

Civilized nations (which is what the nations of Europe and the west like to think we are) do NOT act in this manner. Heck....why don't the Russians just invade and use this as justification? Wipe all those lousy Ukranians out? Would THAT be any more legal? No....of course not.

There are international conventions and legalities that the Russians didn't even bother pursuing...

Of course I don't agree with this. But no one actually knows if the Ukrainians have actually stolen anything or not. As a rule I think Tsar Putin and the USSR are a bunch of so and so's but I wouldn't come out and say that they're lying about what the Ukraine are doing or that there is any other option for them to get what may be rightfully theirs.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Of course I don't agree with this. But no one actually knows if the Ukrainians have actually stolen anything or not. As a rule I think Tsar Putin and the USSR are a bunch of so and so's but I wouldn't come out and say that they're lying about what the Ukraine are doing or that there is any other option for them to get what may be rightfully theirs.

Daniel...if there is no other option, then a PR campaign for the rest of the people downstream of the Ukraine to understand what is going on BEFORE the idea of shutting off the gas is to be considered.

We don't know if the Uke's are stealing the gas. You have that right. This could be all about Putin letting everyone know who is boss. It is my theory at least. I do not think the Ukraninians would do something so obvious and stupid for a second but there are mechanisms and treaties that are to be followed through on.

It would be just as silly if Canada shut off the Natural Gas pipeline to the US over a dispute we had a few years back when the border was sealed to Canadian beef exports after a cow in Alberta was found with the early stages of Mad Cow disease. The fact the cow was sold from a ranch in Louisiana was ignored and after 4 years of squabbling Bush leaned on Congress and the Agricultural weenies and bureaucrats. AT no time did Canada just say "sod this...lets turn off the Natural gas supply". There is a process that has to be followed in all international disagreements and most civilized nations follow through on the results of tribunals. The fact the Russians wouldn't even consider it says volumes about how trumped up this likely is.....

There is a certain beautiful irony that our economies are now dependant on Russia.

It's Lenin's secret masterplan.

[Hondo]

Leave it to Eki to defend shutting off the gas to most of Eastern Europe as ethical....

I suppose you better include me in that one also. If there was a way to isolate only the Ukraine I don't believe Russia would cut off Europe. Putin loses money cutting off Europe. I think the Ukraine is willing to take the gamble that EU pressure will get the gas back on and they can go back to tapping into the flow.

People ought to be angry with the Ukraine if the allegations are are true.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The problem is Fiero is millions of people in Eastern Europe are being made to suffer for alledged theft by the Ukraine. Again...I don't think personally that this is the real reason at all. Just Vlad showing everyone how much control he can have over their worthless lives....

[donKey jote]

they tell all the other nations downstream of the gas theives in the Ukraine (alleged) that they better cough up some dough to build a pipeline from Russia through Poland or some other EU nation in the system.

Well, there are plans to build a pipeline directly to Germany under the Baltic.
Poland is not happy about it as it feels "bypassed". Nor is Ukraine of course.
Gerhard Schroder is in the lobby for it (i.e. on Putin/Gasprom's payroll to "sell" it), as Germany imports about 30% of it's gas from Russia.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The fact all the Gas into the EU from Russia is coming through Ukraine shows a Communist era mentality to start with. ONE pipeline for about 200 million plus customers? God help us if a terrorist strike was made against the pipeline or a pumphouse broke down.....

At least that would be a rational reason for the Eastern EU to lose their gas supply...not the thuggery of the Russians just arbitrarly turning the tap off in the middle of winter.

[donKey jote]

I think they have more pipelines, but the largest/shortest one for Eastern Europe goes through Ukraine...

The EU as a whole isn't fully dependent on Russia for Gas, in fact it only imports 25% from Russia, but this hides the fact that some EU countries are 100% dependent.

Here's an interesting read I just found, well, if anybody's interested in pipeline politics of course :dozey:

http://www.euractiv.com/en/energy/pipeline-politics-russia-eu-battle-energy/article-177579


Post-Soviet era: US pipeline deals in Russia's backyard

Following the collapse of the Soviet Union, US strategists achieved their ambition of diversifying oil and gas transport routes to Europe. For the first time, deliveries to the West were able to bypass Russian territory, helping the US to knit a web of friendly states in the Caucasus and Central and Eastern Europe.

[gadjo_dilo]

Gadjo...Romania isn't alone in this. In today's paper I read about how half of Europe depends on Russian gas and no quick fix solutions are available. This dispute with the Ukraine's alledgelly siphoning off the gas is a spurious reason for Russia to remind everyone in Europe that they are the boss of the economic future of half of the EC. This is a big show of power to make all the nations downstream of the Russians gas supply that they don't make the rules..Vlad Putin does.

Alternative sources of power needed to be found long before they signed a deal with this devil. It is no wonder to anyone with half a brain that no one likes or trusts the Russians to do business with. They not only not play fair, they don't have any concern for anyone but themselves on ANY level.

This dispute should be handled in the courts and is between the Russians and the Ukraninians and should be separate from actually supplying EC nations with natural gas.

Now to be honest I'm not so worried as you might think.We're not totally dependent on russian gas but the cutting meant a lose of pressure in national pipelines. Of course there are crise measures like using coal or fuel oil, etc.
My intention was to underline that Russia should still be taken into account.
In the last years Ukraine courted EU and NATO. From a political point of view it's fair for Russia to quit the preferential price for Ukraine ( let's not forget that Ukraine is now forced to pay 250$/1000mc while the rest of Europe pay about 500 ). Every businessman would have been acted the same way.
Ukraine is usually playing dirty ( only if you think of Bystroe channel and the Serpent Island case ) and personally I don't blame Russia in thia respect.

Morning news say that mr. Putin was a nice a guy and offered us the posssibility to sell us the gas for Ukraine through South Stram project and then they wouldn't mind if we sell it to Ukraine at our price. :laugh:

[ioan]

OK, here in Romania we have our own gas resources, we still have an acceptable russian gas stock, we still can use coal and fuel oil, however it was declared emergency state , the girl next to me is already wearing 3 sweaters and a shawl and our president is desperately trying to get in touch with mr.Putin.
A classic alive said " winter is not like summer " so no matter how much we try to reduce consumption we can't live without heat and food.

The emergency state was declared in order for the government to be able to cut the gas supply of the industry and divert it towards heating up your sorry behinds. You shouldn't read more into it.

As for your president contacting Putin, it's not his job to do so, there is a foreign affairs minister and a Prime minister who should do it.

Given the results of the last elections you deserve to be freezing day and night, maybe it will help people get some reason into their hollow heads.

[ioan]

1.Why don't you let me go home??????????
2.We're not a very rich country and don't have enough resources.
3.The import of gas is probably the most convenient. What's the use of energy independence if we wouldn't be able to pay the bills?
4. Stranglehold? It's a business partner neither better nor worse than others.

1. Who stops you? maybe it's warmer at work than home?! :p :
2. That's wrong, we are one of the few EU countries that have all kind of resources. In fact 60% of the gas use din Romania is local resources.
Romania could increase their gas extraction capacity and be free of the Russian gas imports for some time and with the money they don't give to big brother Russia they should develop their nuclear energy production and some biogas plants in order to become an energetically free country for the long term.

Not that I'm expecting the loser government we have to do so, they are way to bothered with taking idiotic populist measures against retired people who dared to start working again in order to be able to live like decent humans.

3. You are contradicting yourself there. Importing gas that costs you money isn't a way to make sure you can pay your bills.

4. Not sure about the "not worse" part.

[ioan]

Morning news say that mr. Putin was a nice a guy and offered us the posssibility to sell us the gas for Ukraine through South Stram project and then they wouldn't mind if we sell it to Ukraine at our price. :laugh:

You can bet that our (ok your :D ) neighbor Ukraine will be very happy if that happens! Divide et impera ;) , way to go Mr Putin way to go!

[gadjo_dilo]

The emergency state was declared in order for the government to be able to cut the gas supply of the industry and divert it towards heating up your sorry behinds. You shouldn't read more into it.

As for your president contacting Putin, it's not his job to do so, there is a foreign affairs minister and a Prime minister who should do it.

Given the results of the last elections you deserve to be freezing day and night, maybe it will help people get some reason into their hollow heads.

Ionel, Ionelule, you're back and you're as sweet as usual.

Are you being the same smart ass or is it because of St. John hangover? :laugh:

Yeah, you're right, if other guys were elected, Putin would have been more forgiving with the gas tap.
A few months ago you were fuming against our leaders. Now elections brought in force the other camp. At the end of the day, to quote some famous ladies : " tell me what you want, what you really, really want " :laugh:

In the meantime, just watch http://www.realitatea.net :laugh: :laugh:
It's time to know a few things about your (ex)country before launching such enormities like in your last 2 posts.

[ioan]

Ionel, Ionelule, you're back and you're as sweet as usual.

Ain't that beautiful?! :D



In the meantime, just watch http://www.realitatea.net :laugh: :laugh:
It's time to know a few things about your (ex)country before launching such enormities like in your last 2 posts.

No thanks, I'm happy that around here I'm not exposed to the brainwashing you are getting with the local televisions, each of them lying to you what their politically influential bosses wish!

[gadjo_dilo]

Ain't that beautiful?! :D !

Matter of taste. De gustibus.... :laugh:


No thanks, I'm happy that around here I'm not exposed to the brainwashing you are getting with the local televisions, each of them lying to you what their politically influential bosses wish!
Great! Just as I thought: your brilliant theories about what's happening here are based on Radio Shantz and Radio Erevan. :laugh:
Can't believe you're so weak! Usually a sharp mind is in vain exposed to brainwashing.

[ioan]

Great! Just as I thought: your brilliant theories about what's happening here are based on Radio Shantz and Radio Erevan. :laugh:
Can't believe you're so weak! Usually a sharp mind is in vain exposed to brainwashing.

Typically Romanian, you know nothing about my information sources but you keep laughing like a senile squirrel.

PS: You think you are a sharp mind?! :confused:

[gadjo_dilo]

Typically Romanian, you know nothing about my information sources but you keep laughing like a senile squirrel.:
Because in a typical romanian way you pretend to know/see anything without mentioning your sources.


PS: You think you are a sharp mind?! :confused:

Honestly? Noooooooo. But seeing you acting like a big head I thought you were. :laugh:

[Camelopard]

Typically Romanian, you know nothing about my information sources but you keep laughing like a senile squirrel.

PS: You think you are a sharp mind?! :confused:

So if you hate everything about Romania and Romanians why do you fly the Romanian flag?

:( :( :(

[Daniel]

So if you hate everything about Romania and Romanians why do you fly the Romanian flag?

:( :( :(
I understand Ioan's attitude. There are certain things I don't like about some sectors of Australian society and I'm happy to say so when the opportunity presents itself but I'm not ashamed to say I come from Australia :)

[DonJippo]

I understand Ioan's attitude. There are certain things I don't like about some sectors of Australian society and I'm happy to say so when the opportunity presents itself but I'm not ashamed to say I come from Australia :)

And then you go and use South-Africa flag :p

[Daniel]

And then you go and use South-Africa flag :p
I can't help my heritage ;)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Daniel...you must be confused. An Aussie with South African roots living in the UK? .......

A citizen of the commonwealth for sure.....

As for the Romainian cat fight....I am totally lost on this one.....

All I know is the Russians turned the Gas off to half of Europe on the middle of winter. In Canada the gas company cannot do that by LAW against people who are behind on their bills.....so I fail to see how what the Russians are doing is very neighbourly....

[Daniel]

Daniel...you must be confused. An Aussie with South African roots living in the UK? .......

A citizen of the commonwealth for sure.....

As for the Romainian cat fight....I am totally lost on this one.....

All I know is the Russians turned the Gas off to half of Europe on the middle of winter. In Canada the gas company cannot do that by LAW against people who are behind on their bills.....so I fail to see how what the Russians are doing is very neighbourly....

I'm not confused. I'm happy with things how they are :)

I agree about Russia but Russia doesn't know the meaning of being a good neighbour :)

[Hondo]

Daniel...you must be confused. An Aussie with South African roots living in the UK? .......

A citizen of the commonwealth for sure.....

As for the Romainian cat fight....I am totally lost on this one.....

All I know is the Russians turned the Gas off to half of Europe on the middle of winter. In Canada the gas company cannot do that by LAW against people who are behind on their bills.....so I fail to see how what the Russians are doing is very neighbourly....

It may not be neighbourly, but it is very Russian.

[Mark in Oshawa]

VERY Russian indeed. What Vlad hasn't figured out is that there is a reason the Russians are not exactly loved by anyone outside of Russia...

[Hondo]

VERY Russian indeed. What Vlad hasn't figured out is that there is a reason the Russians are not exactly loved by anyone outside of Russia...


They don't care if you love them, only that you pay heed to them.

[Hondo]

I see where the EU has gotten Russia and the Ukraine to make nice-nice with each other and the gas will be turned on again.

[Eki]

I see where the EU has gotten Russia and the Ukraine to make nice-nice with each other and the gas will be turned on again.
Yes, which proves you can negotiate and reason with the Russians and it doesn't need military threat.

[Daniel]

Yes, which proves you can negotiate and reason with the Russians and it doesn't need military threat.
Only when it means the Russians will get money out of it....

[Hondo]

Only when it means the Russians will get money out of it....

Don't you expect to be paid fairly for goods, products, or services you provide?

[ioan]

Only when it means the Russians will get money out of it....

And rightly so.

Russians stopped the gas flowing because Ukraine was stealing as from the pipelines.

Now that there will be EU observes at the Ukrainian pipelines entry points the EU countries will know when Ukraine is stealing gas or Putin is having a hysterical moment.

[ioan]

Because in a typical romanian way you pretend to know/see anything without mentioning your sources.

My sources? The more than objective west european media.

[ioan]

So if you hate everything about Romania and Romanians why do you fly the Romanian flag?

:( :( :(

I don't hate everything. There are plenty of things I like and I'm fund of.
Should this stop me from having a critical view about its ill society? I don't think so.

[ioan]

I understand Ioan's attitude. There are certain things I don't like about some sectors of Australian society and I'm happy to say so when the opportunity presents itself but I'm not ashamed to say I come from Australia :)

Thanks for explaining that. :)

[Daniel]

And rightly so.

Russians stopped the gas flowing because Ukraine was stealing as from the pipelines.

Now that there will be EU observes at the Ukrainian pipelines entry points the EU countries will know when Ukraine is stealing gas or Putin is having a hysterical moment.

Of course. I agree that everyone should get paid for their services. My only point was that Russia is only happy to negotiate when there is something in it for them :) When it comes to one of their people poisoning someone here in the UK they could care less about negotiating.


Don't you expect to be paid fairly for goods, products, or services you provide?

Of course, but see above to see what I mean :)

[Hondo]

Of course. I agree that everyone should get paid for their services. My only point was that Russia is only happy to negotiate when there is something in it for them :) When it comes to one of their people poisoning someone here in the UK they could care less about negotiating.



Of course, but see above to see what I mean :)

Poisoning is a free, bonus service, included with your gas purchase.

[Daniel]

Poisoning is a free, bonus service, included with your gas purchase.
Yes it's nice that. As long as they don't overcharge up by £550 like Scottishpower did.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I see where the EU has gotten Russia and the Ukraine to make nice-nice with each other and the gas will be turned on again.

Vlad made his point but he could have approached the EU in the first place and made a PR exercise of threatening to divert or shut off the gas as opposed to just shutting it off.

The Russians don't care about being loved...but when the chips are down no one will ever really trust or have much time for them. The Americans get much the same treatment but I think the Russians get away with a lot more bullying tactics with less fanfare. Say what you want about the US...but on something like this the gas wouldn't have been shut off.

[Eki]

Say what you want about the US...but on something like this the gas wouldn't have been shut off.

But they have been trying to shut off the flow of Mexicans to the US.

[Daniel]

But they have been trying to shut off the flow of Mexicans to the US.
Oh come on Eki that's a ridiculous point and you know it......

[Mark in Oshawa]

But they have been trying to shut off the flow of Mexicans to the US.

ummmmmm Duhhhhhh any nation wants to be considered sovreign kind of likes to know who is coming through the border. Do the Russians not talk to Finnish customs at the border Eki? Does Finland reserve the right to turn them back?

God you have some WEAK arguments sometimes.....

[Hondo]

Vlad made his point but he could have approached the EU in the first place and made a PR exercise of threatening to divert or shut off the gas as opposed to just shutting it off.

The Russians don't care about being loved...but when the chips are down no one will ever really trust or have much time for them. The Americans get much the same treatment but I think the Russians get away with a lot more bullying tactics with less fanfare. Say what you want about the US...but on something like this the gas wouldn't have been shut off.

The EU moves faster when it's freezing.

[Mark in Oshawa]

Or the gas is being turned off...but it still don't make what the Russians did right.

[Camelopard]

ummmmmm Duhhhhhh any nation wants to be considered sovreign kind of likes to know who is coming through the border. Do the Russians not talk to Finnish customs at the border Eki? Does Finland reserve the right to turn them back?

God you have some WEAK arguments sometimes.....

Do you ever stop to think that Eki makes these comments to get a rise out of you? Why not let it go without having to reply to every post all the time?


'build a bridge...... and get over it!'

[Daniel]

Do you ever stop to think that Eki makes these comments to get a rise out of you? Why not let it go without having to reply to every post all the time?


'build a bridge...... and get over it!'
And then burn it before Eki can get to the other side and annoy you :)

[Mark in Oshawa]

Camel...if I ignored every dumb post on here I could reach a point of never posting..which might make a few of you happy I am sure.

I have no idea if Eki is pulling my leg or not but he has said so much nonsense in a fashion that makes me believe he actually believes it that I am left to comment on his posts. Hey..isn't that what we all do?

[Daniel]

Camel...if I ignored every dumb post on here I could reach a point of never posting..which might make a few of you happy I am sure.

I have no idea if Eki is pulling my leg or not but he has said so much nonsense in a fashion that makes me believe he actually believes it that I am left to comment on his posts. Hey..isn't that what we all do?

The sad thing is that at times Eki makes some good points which get totally ignored because of all the crap he spews the rest of the time. Which is a pity really.

[Mark in Oshawa]

The sad thing is that at times Eki makes some good points which get totally ignored because of all the crap he spews the rest of the time. Which is a pity really.

Daniel, you said that better than I did..in that I should have just said that. Eki has been right once in a while............in a while anyhow...

I don't mind disagreeing or agreeing with anyone here and I am open to debate...that is the fun of this kind of forum is it not?

[Daniel]

Daniel, you said that better than I did..in that I should have just said that. Eki has been right once in a while............in a while anyhow...

I don't mind disagreeing or agreeing with anyone here and I am open to debate...that is the fun of this kind of forum is it not?
Definitely :up:

I've met some great people through this forum, heck I even live with one and she's great. I've met some people who I disagree with passionately on some issues but the people I've met have by and large been great people. I do find it a little sad when certain people pigeonhole others and make silly comments about people's country. I mean if I read this forum and didn't know anything about Finland I'd think it a horrible place from what some Americans say about it :crazy:

[Mark in Oshawa]

Definitely :up:

I've met some great people through this forum, heck I even live with one and she's great. I've met some people who I disagree with passionately on some issues but the people I've met have by and large been great people. I do find it a little sad when certain people pigeonhole others and make silly comments about people's country. I mean if I read this forum and didn't know anything about Finland I'd think it a horrible place from what some Americans say about it :crazy:


If I only went off of Tomi and Eki...I might be inclined to agree. However the Finn's have been really entertaining and AFF, Woody and a few others give me a wider view than I had of the Finns.

Heck...if one listened to just Easy Drifter and I, one might think all Canadians were small c conservatives and a little cranky....which I know isn't true.

[Camelopard]

and if one only ever listened to vop and fousto...............


oh well, never mind.........

[Easy Drifter]

Hey, I 'resemble' that remark! :D

[gadjo_dilo]

My sources? The more than objective west european media.
That's a good joke to start a new week of work. Thanks for it. :laugh:

[Eki]

If I only went off of Tomi and Eki...I might be inclined to agree. However the Finn's have been really entertaining and AFF, Woody and a few others give me a wider view than I had of the Finns.

Heck...if one listened to just Easy Drifter and I, one might think all Canadians were small c conservatives and a little cranky....which I know isn't true.
They used to say that the image of Finland in America was 3 Ks, kylmä, kaukana ja kommunistinen (cold, far away and communist). Looks like Canada is 3 Cs, conservative, cranky and c*** small.

[Easy Drifter]

Yawn. :D

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifter...I think he insulted us. Heck little does he know we might be the last two cranky conservatives in Ontario? God knows we are in the minority....

[Easy Drifter]

Yes but consider the source.
It is an honour to be insulted by Eki.
It means we bugged him! :D

[ioan]

That's a good joke to start a new week of work. Thanks for it. :laugh:

What's so funny about it?
I'll take the serious western european media over any of those that continuously brain wash you back in Romania. Why because they have no interests to tweak the news for a handful of Romanians who are watching them, so they say it as it is.

Keep laughing as long as you can, you might have to face a hard and long shortage in a few months time given the way the new governement is doing it's job!

[Mark in Oshawa]

Drifter...just remember that most of the time if you are insulted by your opponent, it usually means he ran out of arguments to refute yours....course Eki wouldn't see it that way.

That's ok Eki...I don't judge the Finnish people on what you have shown me. If most Finn's were like Eki, the Russians would have rolled through Helsinki in 1940 in about 10 minutes.....

[Hondo]

No surprise here at all. I've been wondering why it has taken so long for the USA to be blamed for the Russian-European gas crisis.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ebb4148e-e1a6-11dd-afa0-0000779fd2ac.html

You'll have to get in line to complain though, we are still responding to charges that we caused somebody to be attacked and bitten by a mosquito in Panama. Take a number and be seated and we'll be with you as soon as possible.

Putin begins to spin his web, anticipating the coronation of the Exalted Transparent One.

[Mark in Oshawa]

No surprise here at all. I've been wondering why it has taken so long for the USA to be blamed for the Russian-European gas crisis.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/ebb4148e-e1a6-11dd-afa0-0000779fd2ac.html

You'll have to get in line to complain though, we are still responding to charges that we caused somebody to be attacked and bitten by a mosquito in Panama. Take a number and be seated and we'll be with you as soon as possible.

Putin begins to spin his web, anticipating the coronation of the Exalted Transparent One.

Beautiful...its all Obama's fault...ya that is it.

What a joke!

The Ukranians and the Russians obviously will do anything to tick each other off...but Putin blaming the Yanks is just a tad much. Like who cut off the gas FIRST VLAD? Oh look in the mirror..you can find him....

[Hondo]

Beautiful...its all Obama's fault...ya that is it.

What a joke!

The Ukranians and the Russians obviously will do anything to tick each other off...but Putin blaming the Yanks is just a tad much. Like who cut off the gas FIRST VLAD? Oh look in the mirror..you can find him....

Nay, nay, read again. Putin has started the gas flow but the USA has influenced the Ukraine to not let the gas flow on through to Europe. The USA wants to stop the gas flow because...uh...well...you see...ok, I don't know why we wanted to cut the gas flow off, but we did, by God!

So much for spackman claiming we don't have influence anymore!

[Hondo]

Slovakia and Bulgaria have sent representitives to Russia and Ukraine to get the gas on again. I can hear ol' Putin now - You wanted to be independant and now you are, enjoy!

Meantime, the EU is threatening to sue both gas companies.

[gadjo_dilo]

Slovakia and Bulgaria have sent representitives to Russia and Ukraine to get the gas on again. I can hear ol' Putin now - You wanted to be independant and now you are, enjoy!

Meantime, the EU is threatening to sue both gas companies.
Don't be so dramatic. You know very well that the one to blame is Ukraine.
Even if Bulgaria or Slovakia were parts of Russian Federation the gas couldn't get there without a pipe.

[ioan]

Don't be so dramatic. You know very well that the one to blame is Ukraine.
Even if Bulgaria or Slovakia were parts of Russian Federation the gas couldn't get there without a pipe.

You're right.

[BDunnell]

Don't be so dramatic.

I think Fiero was deploying a little bit of humour in making the remark about Putin, rather than being 'dramatic'.

[Garry Walker]

Yes, which proves you can negotiate and reason with the Russians and it doesn't need military threat.

:rotflmao: Ahh our resident Russian expert.

[Tomi]

Definitely :up: I mean if I read this forum and didn't know anything about Finland I'd think it a horrible place from what some Americans say about it :crazy:

Thats true i guess, it's better to actually go and see for your self, I would not comment places I have not been too, things looks different from tv, but if you are open minded, and not too scared you can also see things they dont like to show you on tv.