News Headlines

[Camelopard]

OK, before I'm accused of being biased against the US, I'll admit I don't like a lot of their foreign policies and in particular their multi-nationals! but it's hard to like a place when you read stories like these 2 which showed up when I checked my yahoo email account a little while ago. Really what help is there for that country?

http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243513

Dad kills son to get out of support

January 4, 2009,

A man who initially told police that gunmen kidnapped his two-year-old son was arrested on Saturday, accused of committing an "extremely hideous" murder because he was ordered to pay child support, Police Superintendent Warren Riley said.
Danny Platt confessed, told police where to find the child's body and will be booked with first-degree murder of Ja' Shawn Powell, Riley said at a news conference.
"He had said he would kill either his wife or his child before he paid child support," which he recently had been ordered to do, Riley said.
Riley said he did not know the amount of child support and would not describe how the boy was killed, saying the coroner would do that after the autopsy was complete. The coroner's spokesman did not immediately return a call.
"The mother is in a safe place," Riley said.
Although he had visiting rights, Platt, 22, of New Orleans, had never visited the boy until he picked him up Friday, Riley said.
Police put out a notice Saturday asking people to look for the boy and saying his father had told them three men with dreadlocks and AK-47 rifles had piled out of an SUV and kidnapped Ja' Shawn shortly before midnight Friday.
"His story never really added up," Riley said. "He was a suspect from the very beginning."
Riley said Platt eventually confessed and told officers where to find the body.
Platt had only a couple of "very minor" previous arrests, he said.
"How does an individual - because he's ordered to pay child support to take care of a kid ... believe that this is so much pressure that he would face - he would do this hideous act to his own child, or to any child, and think that is a remedy to paying child support?" Riley said. "I mean there are some sick individuals in this society, and this gentleman is clearly one."


Immediately followed by: http://au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243246


Court finds 12yo guilty of mum's murder

January 4, 2009,

A 12-year-old boy who fatally shot his mother after an argument over his chores was found guilty of pre-meditated murder.
Judge James Conlogue found the boy guilty after a hearing on Friday in Cochise County Superior Court in the southern Arizona town of Bisbee. The boy is not being identified because he was charged as a juvenile.
Conlogue ruled that prosecutors had proved the boy acted intentionally and with pre-meditation when he shot Sara Madrid, 34, eight times on August 1. The shooting happened after the boy had argued with his mother over his chores.
Madrid had left the family home after the argument, and the boy got a .22-calibre pistol from her bedroom closet, waited for her to return and then repeatedly shot her, according to court testimony.
Madrid's live-in boyfriend of 10 years, Alfonso Munoz, witnessed the shooting and said the boy gave him the empty gun afterward.
Munoz, who helped raise the boy, said he had taught the child how to use the weapon for emergencies and self-defence.
The boy's lawyer, Sanford Edleman, had argued that the boy did not intend to kill his mother but only wanted to get back at her for abusing him.
Police said the boy told them his mother yelled at him and slapped him.
Madrid's sister, Ernestine Huitron, testified on Friday that Madrid did not want the boy to live with her, and that Madrid had a temper and yelled at him.
"He is a docile, sweet boy," Huitron said. "Sara said (the boy) was stupid and dumb."
Prosecutors wanted the boy tried as an adult, but the judge ruled the case should remain in juvenile court after a psychologist and psychiatrist testified that he suffered physical and verbal abuse from his mother and could be rehabilitated in the juvenile justice system.
Under Arizona law, the boy can only be held until he turns 18. Sentencing is set for January 23.

[Hondo]

I guess there's no hope at all. This is probably the first time in recorded world history that those crimes or similar ones have been committed.

[ShiftingGears]

That is messed up.

[yodasarmpit]

Truth is any country of 300M will have a few horror stories, there are plenty in the UK a country of only 60M as I'm sure there will be in Aussie land.

[Easy Drifter]

Our country of 33 million has had similar cases.
One that springs to mind is a 12 or 13 year old girl had her 20 something boy friend kill her parents.
Another case two teenage girls drowned their mother after getting her drunk.
Yet another alleged (no trial yet) a father murdered his teenaged daughter because she wouldn't wear a Burka. She had become too independent and wouldn't obey her families strict religous beliefs it is alleged.
I think every country has these sort of things happen.

[BDunnell]

I guess there's no hope at all. This is probably the first time in recorded world history that those crimes or similar ones have been committed.

My thoughts exactly...

[Jag_Warrior]

It's hard to like a place when you read of two isolated incidents? :rolleyes:

We have crime, like every other nation on earth. And in some areas, mainly the major cities, violent crime is rampant - drugs and gangs are the main causes. But I find any of that being used as a basis "not to like us" as pretty bizarre. In Mexico, drug gangs carry more weight than the police or the military, and headless, tortured bodies are being found along the Mexico/U.S. border. Over 5000 people were murdered in drug related violence in Mexico last year. That violence, along with associated kidnappings, are now spilling into the U.S. Personally, I think we should have troops on the southern border. But because Bush and the neocons only consider someone a terrorist if they're screaming about Allah or throwing their shoes at a dimwitted lame duck President, these narco-terrorists are free to kill and kidnap as many Americans as they see fit. In Colombia, FARC rebels roam the country, as they torture and kill anyone who opposes their brand of better living through communism. To "teach" young women to better respect themselves in public, FARC social guerillas routinely brand girls who wear shirts or blouses which show their midsections. We call them "belly shirts" here and consider them harmless. The worst thing about them to most in the U.S. is that women who are 20-50 pounds overweight (and 10-20 years too old) think they should be wearing them too. But in Colombia, a girl will be held down while a group of FARC "soldiers" lay a red hot bayonet across her bare abdomen and brand her. If the girl is thought to be a prostitute, her legs are pulled apart and the hot bayonet is used to sexually mutilate her. The Shining Path Maoists still pose a major threat to the citizens of Peru. Once weakened, they have now rebuilt. They murder. They rape. They terrorize. I won't even go into the situations in the Middle East and Israel, parts of Asia and most of Africa. And I know better than to believe that Europe is a crime free zone. And yet, I don't find it hard to like any of "them".

We're not angels here in the U.S. - we don't claim to be. And if you come here, depending on where you are, you may be faced with crime or violence. But the United States (on whole) is not some version of a bad Hollywood shoot 'em up that many seem to (want to) believe that it is. If people choose not to like us because of where we live, then I see that as being between them and God.

[Daniel]

Truth is any country of 300M will have a few horror stories, there are plenty in the UK a country of only 60M as I'm sure there will be in Aussie land.

I agree. I have to say I disagree with the OP. I think things are perhaps a little worse in the US because of the more lax gun laws but people who are intent on doing something like this will always find a way.

Here's a nice story from my hometown :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_and_Catherine_Birnie

Slightly off topic but did anyone see Law and Disorder with Louis Theroux when he went to South Africa? I can imagine that would be enough to make some people never go there.

[Drew]

Slightly off topic but did anyone see Law and Disorder with Louis Theroux when he went to South Africa? I can imagine that would be enough to make some people never go there.

I think an extremely high rape rate, murder rate and car jacking rate all help as well.

There are nutters everywhere, just as there are some really decent people everywhere! If you only read the bad stories, you'll just get a bad impression!

[Daniel]

I think an extremely high rape rate, murder rate and car jacking rate all help as well.

There are nutters everywhere, just as there are some really decent people everywhere! If you only read the bad stories, you'll just get a bad impression!

Yes but you should have seen this show. I've been to SA and I'm well aware of the facts and figures and even I was amazed :crazy:

[Drew]

Yes but you should have seen this show. I've been to SA and I'm well aware of the facts and figures and even I was amazed :crazy:

Yeah I did see it, WHOLE buildings getting hijacked shocked me too, I've never heard of that before.

[Camelopard]

My point was that these 2 incidents were reported on the same day, It can't be too often that you see a list of 6 or 8 headlines and 2 of them are reporting things like this.

How the hell does a 12 year old get such easy access to weapons?

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Russia wants warships stationed around the world (Reuters) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0aW9hZzgxBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMQRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131n78qhc/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243987)[/*:m:1e2biofs]
Man's last US lotto ticket wins $A14m (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0NjUxZHFvBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMgRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1311mhf55/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243544)[/*:m:1e2biofs]
Autopsy planned for John Travolta's son (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0ZzMyaGliBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMwRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1312m0qad/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243245)[/*:m:1e2biofs]
Court finds 12yo guilty of mum's murder (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0NG8zbDBkBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNARzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1311285vc/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243246)[/*:m:1e2biofs]
Dad kills son to get out of support (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0czczbW4yBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNQRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131ri99bq/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243513)[/*:m:1e2biofs]
Base jumper 'lucky' to survive bridge plunge (ABC) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0bzJuY2RyBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNgRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131ki07bs/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243419)[/*:m:1e2biofs]As a bit of good news, read the one about the lottery win which wasn't on the list last night.

[jso1985]

a drunk father killing his wife/ex-wife and children kinda happens 6 times a year here... and we're only 9M here.

Horror stories happen everywhere, just that in some countries they get more media coverage

[Hondo]

My point was that these 2 incidents were reported on the same day, It can't be too often that you see a list of 6 or 8 headlines and 2 of them are reporting things like this.

How the hell does a 12 year old get such easy access to weapons?

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Russia wants warships stationed around the world (Reuters) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0aW9hZzgxBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMQRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131n78qhc/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243987)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]
Man's last US lotto ticket wins $A14m (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0NjUxZHFvBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMgRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1311mhf55/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243544)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]
Autopsy planned for John Travolta's son (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0ZzMyaGliBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDMwRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1312m0qad/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243245)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]
Court finds 12yo guilty of mum's murder (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0NG8zbDBkBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNARzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=1311285vc/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243246)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]
Dad kills son to get out of support (AAP) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0czczbW4yBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNQRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131ri99bq/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243513)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]
Base jumper 'lucky' to survive bridge plunge (ABC) (http://us.lrd.yahoo.com/_ylc=X3oDMTI0bzJuY2RyBF9TAzM5ODMwMDk2NwRwb3MDNgRzZ WMDbndfdG9wc3RvcmllcwRzbGsDdGl0bGUEdGFyA2F1Lm5ld3M ueWFob28uY29t/SIG=131ki07bs/**http%3A//au.rd.yahoo.com/news/rss/most_viewed/*http%3A//au.news.yahoo.com/a/-/newshome/5243419)[/*:m:3exr6gfl]As a bit of good news, read the one about the lottery win which wasn't on the list last night.

When I was a kid, almost every house in the neighborhood had a gun cabinet in the living room or den. The guns were sometimes loaded, the cabinets were never locked. We were told to leave the guns alone unless an adult was watching over us. Most of us had a .22 rifle or .410 shotgun of our own by age 10. We left the guns alone and respected the rules. As kids, we got into the usual fights, etc., but nobody ever went for a gun. In high school, during hunting seasons, there was nothing unusual about vehicles in the parking lot with rifles or shotguns in them, ready to go into the field as soon as school let out for the day. What happens today is more of a reflection on the social/cultural values of today, not the country.

How many people on this forum claim to abhor guns and violence, then turn around and fire up a 1st person shooter game on their playstation or xbox. You may be able to make the distinction between reality and the game, but some do not.

Seems to me I remember the government of India sometime back announcing that it was going to start cracking down on rural area people that were killing or allowing their newborn female infants to die because females were an expense but males were an asset.

There have been some school shootings in Finland, violent and gun crime is on the rise in England. Changing times.

If you don't like the USA, thats ok with me, but to rationalize it based on based on a couple of crime page headlines is pretty lame. At least Eki, SOD, and spackman have the balls to be upfront with it.

[Jag_Warrior]

When I was a kid, almost every house in the neighborhood had a gun cabinet in the living room or den. The guns were sometimes loaded, the cabinets were never locked. We were told to leave the guns alone unless an adult was watching over us. Most of us had a .22 rifle or .410 shotgun of our own by age 10. We left the guns alone and respected the rules. As kids, we got into the usual fights, etc., but nobody ever went for a gun. In high school, during hunting seasons, there was nothing unusual about vehicles in the parking lot with rifles or shotguns in them, ready to go into the field as soon as school let out for the day. What happens today is more of a reflection on the social/cultural values of today, not the country.

You apparently grew up in an area and time similar to my own experience. Guns to us were no big deal. It never crossed our minds to go for a knife (and certainly not a gun) to settle a fight. If you couldn't settle a dispute with your fists, then you had no business fighting... or you were a coward. Now kids want to be thugs, hard, bad azz, cold blooded, ruthless, notorious, "I ain't no stranga to danga, yo!". :rolleyes:

IMO, our society and humanity is receeding. I don't want to get started. But while we have made important gains in some respects (race relations, religious tolerance, etc.), we've also come to accept certain uncivillized and socially harmful behaviors as OK... because we're told, "it's not good to judge". The concepts of shame and social stigmas are not always bad, IMO. And the children growing up in these households without shame, stigmas or structure are the ones who I worry about.

But as for these reports coming out on the same day... it's just like the shark attack frenzy a few years ago. When the final numbers were tabulated at the end of the summer, there were really no more shark attacks that year than in previous years. It's just that the media reported on them more, and so people took notice more. Same here.

[Camelopard]

What happens today is more of a reflection on the social/cultural values of today, not the country.

If you don't like the USA, thats ok with me, but to rationalize it based on based on a couple of crime page headlines is pretty lame. At least Eki, SOD, and spackman have the balls to be upfront with it.

Yep, very good points. As usual I probably didn't write what I thunk ( :) ) and therefore didn't express myself very well..........

As for hating the US, I don't, I've just learnt on this forum that to express ones views often means being instantly classified as being anti american, pro russian, anti castro etc.

Classic example is to disagree with M in O regarding israel and to be called anti-semitic. Often happens when anyone dares to criticise israel or zionists.

No, I don't particularily like (some) American multi-nationals, I have my reasons for that which I won't bore you. Yep some of the USA's foreign policies suck (imo), doesn't mean all of the policies do.

[Camelopard]

IMO, our society and humanity is receeding. .............. The concepts of shame and social stigmas are not always bad, IMO. And the children growing up in these households without shame, stigmas or structure are the ones who I worry about.


Yes, I have to agree with you and unfortunately I think the problem is a world wide one, voilence in Australia is on the increase, 2 examples in the last couple of days involved a former football champion going to help a woman being attacked,

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/02/2457965.htm

The other one was of a current football player being attacked after trying to stop a fight.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/02/2457966.htm

[Easy Drifter]

Like my US counterparts I grew up around guns and was shooting and hunting by age 10. My dad was a crack shot (banned from Turkey shoots in Man. He won them all). My mother was also a pretty good shot. Her brother, a Mountie was scary around a gun! My Uncles on my father's side were both crack shots and one was a small arms instructor in WW2. He had been a sniper in WW1 and a mercenary earlier. My Grandfather was RNWMP ending up as an Inspector. Earlier he had been a gun for hire.
We never thought of fighting with anything but fists. Even kicking was frowned upon by most kids.
Today Canada's gun laws make it difficult to own a gun legally and handguns are restricted weapons. However we have the same problems as the US with punks and gangs with illegal guns who just let fly at each other. Most are lousy shots but as a result hit innocent bystanders.
I haven't fired a gun for about 10 years but the last time I did I hit what I was shooting at. A rat. Four legged barnyard type. I lived in the country then, now in a small town so no gun. :p :
Oh and I always have treated every gun I have ever handled as loaded until I personally unloaded it or checked it.

[Daniel]

When I was a kid, almost every house in the neighborhood had a gun cabinet in the living room or den. The guns were sometimes loaded, the cabinets were never locked. We were told to leave the guns alone unless an adult was watching over us. Most of us had a .22 rifle or .410 shotgun of our own by age 10. We left the guns alone and respected the rules. As kids, we got into the usual fights, etc., but nobody ever went for a gun. In high school, during hunting seasons, there was nothing unusual about vehicles in the parking lot with rifles or shotguns in them, ready to go into the field as soon as school let out for the day. What happens today is more of a reflection on the social/cultural values of today, not the country.

How many people on this forum claim to abhor guns and violence, then turn around and fire up a 1st person shooter game on their playstation or xbox. You may be able to make the distinction between reality and the game, but some do not.

Seems to me I remember the government of India sometime back announcing that it was going to start cracking down on rural area people that were killing or allowing their newborn female infants to die because females were an expense but males were an asset.

There have been some school shootings in Finland, violent and gun crime is on the rise in England. Changing times.

If you don't like the USA, thats ok with me, but to rationalize it based on based on a couple of crime page headlines is pretty lame. At least Eki, SOD, and spackman have the balls to be upfront with it.

I don't dislike the USA at all.

What I dislike is that while as you say above things used to work and people used to be able to be trusted to have guns around and not shoot each other, it seems to have changed. We used to have more lax gun laws in Australia but then some shootings happened and those priveliges were taken off most people and people volunteered their guns for a one off payment. Since then there have been a lot less "husband shoots wife" or "boy accidently pulls trigger and kills family member" type shootings which is certainly a good thing.

The one difference I will say is that there is a lot less hunting in Australia, pretty much the only things I can think of that you'd want to shoot are kangaroos and goats so it's not all that popular. I personally have no issue with people hunting and owning guns which are suitable for hunting. What I don't see as necessary are assault rifles, smg's and automatic pistols which lets face it are really no better than a bolt action rifle for hunting yet if they get into the wrong hands are absolutely deadly against large numbers of people as we saw at Virginia Tech and Columbine.

If there were less of these sorts of weapons in the hands of the average joe who uses them responsibly then less of them would get into the hands of criminals and crazies where they get used to kill people.

You mention gun crime being on the rise in the UK and I think this is true, BUT the use of these weapons is almost always in gang on gang violence which lets be honest is no big problem as it's merely Darwinism in action. Yes everyday people and police officers sometimes get shot but I would say a lot less than in Australia where guns are more commonplace and almost certainly less than in the USA where owning a gun is even more common.

[Garry Walker]

I haven't fired a gun for about 10 years but the last time I did I hit what I was shooting at.
.

I did it yesterday, was great fun as always. My shot is not as good as it used to be though.

[Mark in Oshawa]

I think those who attack the US's view on guns from afar always miss a few salient points.

The first is that owning a gun is a RIGHT for reasons that are unique to the formation of the US. America came of age by rebelling against the world's only superpower in 1776 by having an armed militia. The right to bear arms is to guarntee that no one entity could legally disarm the type of citizen that earned that nation its freedom. It isn't so whackjobs have the right to kill their kid to avoid making child support payments, or to shoot people they didn't like. It was a law designed the RIGHT of every citizen to bear arms to protect oneself and not RELY on a central government or other entity to do so. This is a good thing...and a bad thing in today's world but when you consider the amount of guns in the US, it really isn't as bad as people outside the US believe. Now the Swiss have machine gun's in every man's closet but there is no gun crime at all, so it isn't the guns that are the issue, it is the society.

The other salient point is that everyone who has never lived in the US or has never really studied their history should so they understand just how different their consititution and founding princples are. The US is a bottom up democracy. All citizens were to have rights and no one can take them away. British style democracies such as Canada and Australia came from a tradition of government regulating benignly through elected officials who then did what they thought was best. Protection of rights was to come from a consititution protected by the crown. Hardly the same thing. It is why many in other parts of the world don't see the US gun ownership right for what it is. IT is a bit antiquated in today's world but it is part of their legacy and history. There...you are free and you can protect yourself. At least....until the last few decades. IT is messy...but in the end it is one of the reasons the US became what it has.

Most western nations fight the same culture of violence but in the US guns are just a little easier to find so the death toll is a little larger. That doesn't mean owning a gun is evil or Americans are stupid, it just means when people want to create mayhem, it is a tad easier there than elsewhere.

Look at any nation with a tighting of gun control in the last 20 years and you still see the shooting rates going up and the violence esclating. Whether you think it is Darwin or not (Daniel thinks gangs are ok to go to war with each other I guess) the fact remains people get killed in the cross fire. A lot of deaths in Toronto in the last few years have come about because these losers cant shoot and kill innocents and their macho BS culture doesn't seem to allow them a way to settle accounts without being a jerk with a gun.

It aint the gun's fault.

I grew up in a house with 15 different weapons and to this day have only fired the .22 and the pellet gun. Never took up hunting so my dad's mauser and numerous shotguns have never been in my hands. That said, I know how to use them all and respect all weapons as if they are loaded and know my gun handling procedures. Guns are not going to kill anyone unless they are misused. It is that simple.

[turves]

just to add fuel to the fire...

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Ohio-Boy-Shoots-Babysitter-With-Shotgun-For-Stepping-On-His-Foot/Article/200901115198679?lpos=World_News_First_Home_Article _Teaser_Region_3&lid=ARTICLE_15198679_Ohio%3A_Boy_Shoots_Babysitter _With_Shotgun_For_Stepping_On_His_Foot

[Daniel]

I think those who attack the US's view on guns from afar always miss a few salient points.

The first is that owning a gun is a RIGHT for reasons that are unique to the formation of the US. America came of age by rebelling against the world's only superpower in 1776 by having an armed militia. The right to bear arms is to guarntee that no one entity could legally disarm the type of citizen that earned that nation its freedom. It isn't so whackjobs have the right to kill their kid to avoid making child support payments, or to shoot people they didn't like. It was a law designed the RIGHT of every citizen to bear arms to protect oneself and not RELY on a central government or other entity to do so. This is a good thing...and a bad thing in today's world but when you consider the amount of guns in the US, it really isn't as bad as people outside the US believe. Now the Swiss have machine gun's in every man's closet but there is no gun crime at all, so it isn't the guns that are the issue, it is the society.

The other salient point is that everyone who has never lived in the US or has never really studied their history should so they understand just how different their consititution and founding princples are. The US is a bottom up democracy. All citizens were to have rights and no one can take them away. British style democracies such as Canada and Australia came from a tradition of government regulating benignly through elected officials who then did what they thought was best. Protection of rights was to come from a consititution protected by the crown. Hardly the same thing. It is why many in other parts of the world don't see the US gun ownership right for what it is. IT is a bit antiquated in today's world but it is part of their legacy and history. There...you are free and you can protect yourself. At least....until the last few decades. IT is messy...but in the end it is one of the reasons the US became what it has.

Most western nations fight the same culture of violence but in the US guns are just a little easier to find so the death toll is a little larger. That doesn't mean owning a gun is evil or Americans are stupid, it just means when people want to create mayhem, it is a tad easier there than elsewhere.

Look at any nation with a tighting of gun control in the last 20 years and you still see the shooting rates going up and the violence esclating. Whether you think it is Darwin or not (Daniel thinks gangs are ok to go to war with each other I guess) the fact remains people get killed in the cross fire. A lot of deaths in Toronto in the last few years have come about because these losers cant shoot and kill innocents and their macho BS culture doesn't seem to allow them a way to settle accounts without being a jerk with a gun.

It aint the gun's fault.

I grew up in a house with 15 different weapons and to this day have only fired the .22 and the pellet gun. Never took up hunting so my dad's mauser and numerous shotguns have never been in my hands. That said, I know how to use them all and respect all weapons as if they are loaded and know my gun handling procedures. Guns are not going to kill anyone unless they are misused. It is that simple.

You make some good points. I agree that in the history of the US people owning guns was a beneficial thing to a certain extent. But these days there's no real threat of invasion from a force which could be fought off by a militia made up of people like you or I, those days are long gone. You are also right that it's not the guns fault. The problem with guns is that it's all too easy for some idiot to flip out and take a gun into a classroom or the bedroom and kill someone. It's all to easy with a gun to go from red mist descending to loved one laying in a pool of blood on the floor. Sure you can kill someone in other ways but I think the gun just makes it just a little too easy for people to kill.

The problem is as you say with society but I don't see any way you'll sort society's issues out.

[Mark]

You make some good points. I agree that in the history of the US people owning guns was a beneficial thing to a certain extent. But these days there's no real threat of invasion from a force which could be fought off by a militia made up of people like you or I, those days are long gone. You are also right that it's not the guns fault. The problem with guns is that it's all too easy for some idiot to flip out and take a gun into a classroom or the bedroom and kill someone. It's all to easy with a gun to go from red mist descending to loved one laying in a pool of blood on the floor. Sure you can kill someone in other ways but I think the gun just makes it just a little too easy for people to kill.

The problem is as you say with society but I don't see any way you'll sort society's issues out.

You could say it's the same reason they will only sell paracetemol in packs of 16. People can do stupid things in the heat of the moment, most will think twice if they have to put some proper effort into it.

[steve_spackman]

When I was a kid, almost every house in the neighborhood had a gun cabinet in the living room or den. The guns were sometimes loaded, the cabinets were never locked. We were told to leave the guns alone unless an adult was watching over us. Most of us had a .22 rifle or .410 shotgun of our own by age 10. We left the guns alone and respected the rules. As kids, we got into the usual fights, etc., but nobody ever went for a gun. In high school, during hunting seasons, there was nothing unusual about vehicles in the parking lot with rifles or shotguns in them, ready to go into the field as soon as school let out for the day. What happens today is more of a reflection on the social/cultural values of today, not the country.

How many people on this forum claim to abhor guns and violence, then turn around and fire up a 1st person shooter game on their playstation or xbox. You may be able to make the distinction between reality and the game, but some do not.

Seems to me I remember the government of India sometime back announcing that it was going to start cracking down on rural area people that were killing or allowing their newborn female infants to die because females were an expense but males were an asset.

There have been some school shootings in Finland, violent and gun crime is on the rise in England. Changing times.

If you don't like the USA, thats ok with me, but to rationalize it based on based on a couple of crime page headlines is pretty lame. At least Eki, SOD, and spackman have the balls to be upfront with it.

upfront with what? my dislike for the US??? thats a negative..i have met some really amazing people in the US through my travels...part of my family is from there..

[Daniel]

upfront with what? my dislike for the US??? thats a negative..i have met some really amazing people in the US through my travels...part of my family is from there..

You're a disgrace to your roots! :p

[steve_spackman]

I think those who attack the US's view on guns from afar always miss a few salient points.

The first is that owning a gun is a RIGHT for reasons that are unique to the formation of the US. America came of age by rebelling against the world's only superpower in 1776 by having an armed militia. The right to bear arms is to guarntee that no one entity could legally disarm the type of citizen that earned that nation its freedom. It isn't so whackjobs have the right to kill their kid to avoid making child support payments, or to shoot people they didn't like. It was a law designed the RIGHT of every citizen to bear arms to protect oneself and not RELY on a central government or other entity to do so. This is a good thing...and a bad thing in today's world but when you consider the amount of guns in the US, it really isn't as bad as people outside the US believe. Now the Swiss have machine gun's in every man's closet but there is no gun crime at all, so it isn't the guns that are the issue, it is the society.

The other salient point is that everyone who has never lived in the US or has never really studied their history should so they understand just how different their consititution and founding princples are. The US is a bottom up democracy. All citizens were to have rights and no one can take them away. British style democracies such as Canada and Australia came from a tradition of government regulating benignly through elected officials who then did what they thought was best. Protection of rights was to come from a consititution protected by the crown. Hardly the same thing. It is why many in other parts of the world don't see the US gun ownership right for what it is. IT is a bit antiquated in today's world but it is part of their legacy and history. There...you are free and you can protect yourself. At least....until the last few decades. IT is messy...but in the end it is one of the reasons the US became what it has.

Most western nations fight the same culture of violence but in the US guns are just a little easier to find so the death toll is a little larger. That doesn't mean owning a gun is evil or Americans are stupid, it just means when people want to create mayhem, it is a tad easier there than elsewhere.

Look at any nation with a tighting of gun control in the last 20 years and you still see the shooting rates going up and the violence esclating. Whether you think it is Darwin or not (Daniel thinks gangs are ok to go to war with each other I guess) the fact remains people get killed in the cross fire. A lot of deaths in Toronto in the last few years have come about because these losers cant shoot and kill innocents and their macho BS culture doesn't seem to allow them a way to settle accounts without being a jerk with a gun.

It aint the gun's fault.

I grew up in a house with 15 different weapons and to this day have only fired the .22 and the pellet gun. Never took up hunting so my dad's mauser and numerous shotguns have never been in my hands. That said, I know how to use them all and respect all weapons as if they are loaded and know my gun handling procedures. Guns are not going to kill anyone unless they are misused. It is that simple.

the rights of the people in the US are near to none..if you have money you have every right you can think of, but thats a different topic.

[Mark in Oshawa]

the rights of the people in the US are near to none..if you have money you have every right you can think of, but thats a different topic.


Steve ( there...I broke down and used your first name), in the USA the rights are there for everyone, rich or poor. The fact the Rich seem to have more of them is because they have the money for better lawyers and face time but the American ideal of ground up democracy is messy and ugly but it works.

If you notice, the USA is the one nation where rags to riches stories are legend and seen everywhere. The UK and in Europe, to become rich or to have power often was to have come from a family that had those advantages to start with. Rags to riches stories are more prevalent now in the UK and Europe but in the USA they are the backbone of the American dream....

As for Gun ownership in the US, I agree it is crazy to have so many weapons and the need for a armed populace to stop any dictatorship or armed force from subduing the populace seems quaint but the idea that a citizen has the right to defend himself is protected just the same. An American citizen doesn't have to own or carry a gun, but if they chose to it is their right to have that weapon. Where many Americans go wrong of course is the right to use the gun to take away someone else's right to go in peace but that isn't an American concept, thugs can be found on the streets of Toronto, London, Melbourne, Berlin or any other major city in the "civilized" world.....

[Jag_Warrior]

the rights of the people in the US are near to none..if you have money you have every right you can think of, but thats a different topic.

It would be easy enough to pull up one or two exceptions, but could you prove that as the rule? Start with the Bill of Rights. You're contending that it no longer means anything to anyone but the rich? Other than pulling up an anecdotal or two, please prove that.

[steve_spackman]

It would be easy enough to pull up one or two exceptions, but could you prove that as the rule? Start with the Bill of Rights. You're contending that it no longer means anything to anyone but the rich? Other than pulling up an anecdotal or two, please prove that.

A member of my family who lives in the south, has told me plain and simple that the US is free if you have the money. He went on to say if you dont have the money then you are screwed...

Something about the 'american dream' and people need to wake up he said as the government is screwing you up the ass....thats me quoting him by the way.

and just to let you know he has no issue with money..he lives very comfy

[steve_spackman]

Steve ( there...I broke down and used your first name), in the USA the rights are there for everyone, rich or poor. The fact the Rich seem to have more of them is because they have the money for better lawyers and face time but the American ideal of ground up democracy is messy and ugly but it works.

If you notice, the USA is the one nation where rags to riches stories are legend and seen everywhere. The UK and in Europe, to become rich or to have power often was to have come from a family that had those advantages to start with. Rags to riches stories are more prevalent now in the UK and Europe but in the USA they are the backbone of the American dream....

As for Gun ownership in the US, I agree it is crazy to have so many weapons and the need for a armed populace to stop any dictatorship or armed force from subduing the populace seems quaint but the idea that a citizen has the right to defend himself is protected just the same. An American citizen doesn't have to own or carry a gun, but if they chose to it is their right to have that weapon. Where many Americans go wrong of course is the right to use the gun to take away someone else's right to go in peace but that isn't an American concept, thugs can be found on the streets of Toronto, London, Melbourne, Berlin or any other major city in the "civilized" world.....

my father in law has a house full of guns..i have to give him some slack as he is a redneck HA HA

[steve_spackman]

It would be easy enough to pull up one or two exceptions, but could you prove that as the rule? Start with the Bill of Rights. You're contending that it no longer means anything to anyone but the rich? Other than pulling up an anecdotal or two, please prove that.

from what i have read of the bill of rights..its not very well adhered to in todays world is it?

[Jag_Warrior]

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.motorsportforums.com/forums/showthread.php?p=572015#post572015)
It would be easy enough to pull up one or two exceptions, but could you prove that as the rule? Start with the Bill of Rights. You're contending that it no longer means anything to anyone but the rich? Other than pulling up an anecdotal or two, please prove that.



A member of my family who lives in the south, has told me plain and simple that the US is free if you have the money. He went on to say if you dont have the money then you are screwed...

Something about the 'american dream' and people need to wake up he said as the government is screwing you up the ass....thats me quoting him by the way.

and just to let you know he has no issue with money..he lives very comfy

Well, that's what I was trying to avoid when I said, "other than pulling up an anecdotal". :)

That's just someone venting. No disrespect to your family member, but that proves nothing. In any country in the world, the more money you have the better off you generally are. I don't care if it's the U.S. the UK or Switzerland. But my question was, what rights guaranteed by U.S. law no longer apply?